Open Thread: Bad Parenting, Tragi(comic) Results

Yeah, Sheriff Thirsty is throwing stones right at his own glass jaw. Bella Abzug was my first political icon; I’m all in favor of more political women wearing Big Statement Hats.

Gail Collins read Ivana’s new book, and points out that D-Jr is another victim of the broken Rich White Narcissist subculture so sadly prominent today…

I’m sort of presuming that you’re not going to read it, despite the fact that it includes several recipes. So let me summarize. The book is supposed to be about good parenting. But the most important thing you learn is that we can never say another mean thing about Donald Jr. again. Really, it sounds like the worst childhood ever. His story begins with Dad resisting the idea of naming the baby after him, in case his first born turned out to be “a loser.”

As a toddler, Don Jr. broke his leg due to a negligent babysitter. Then one day when Ivana was out of town, he and Eric called hysterically to report they had found their nanny unconscious in the basement. (She died.)

Wait, there’s more: During their infamous divorce, Dad sent a bodyguard from his office to get Junior, announcing: “You’re not getting him back. I’m going to bring him up myself.”

Ivana says she responded: “O.K., keep him. I have two other kids to raise.” Silence and 10 minutes later the bodyguard returned her son.

It was, Trump’s ex-wife concluded, “a tactic to upset me.” However for some reason, at around this time Don Jr. stopped speaking to his father and wound up getting shipped to boarding school…

Of course, his old man was reportedly physically abusive, as well.

Can you imagine the Wingnut Wurlitzer weasel screaming if this was Chelsea Clinton — never mind our most recent President’s daughters?

271 replies
  1. 1
    Chet says:

    Just a terrible, terrible human being, and a terrible president. Not only “terrible” as in “reprehensible,” but also as in “incompetent.”

  2. 2
    germy says:

    The problem is we all have to suffer because of the shitty parenting donald sr. got.

  3. 3
    Mike in NC says:

    >His story begins with Dad resisting the idea of naming the baby after him, in case his first born turned out to be “a loser.”<

    And just look at how Junior turned out. Sad!

  4. 4
    Felony Govt (formerly Old Broad in California) says:

    Interesting how all black Democratic Congresswomen are now “Maxine Watters” (sic)

  5. 5
    Baud says:

    OT. Daily Beast.

    Retired four-star Gen. David Petraeus on Sunday hit back at White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders’ suggestion that it would be “highly inappropriate” to question a four-star general. “I think we’re all fair game,” Petraeus, the former CIA director, said on ABC’s This Week. “We, in uniform, protect the rights of those to criticize us, frankly … we are fiercely protective of the rights of our Americans to express themselves, even if that includes criticizing us.”

  6. 6
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    Talk about the coconut calling the pot black.

  7. 7
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Baud:
    Betrayus trying to rehabilitate his image?

  8. 8
    germy says:

    BOSTON (AP) – U.S. Sen. Elizabeth Warren is joining the growing chorus of women talking about their experiences with sexual harassment in the wake of allegations against Hollywood mogul Harvey Weinstein.

    The Massachusetts Democrat shared a story from when she was a “baby law professor” during a videotaped interview session with three other female senators that aired Sunday on NBC’s “Meet The Press.”

    Warren says a senior faculty member had asked her to stop by his office one day. When she did, he slammed the door and “lunged” for her. He then chased her around a desk, trying to get his hands on her.

    She says she managed to flee and told only her best friend about it.

    Warren says speaking out is a way to show solidarity and say it isn’t the victim’s fault.

  9. 9
    germy says:

    His story begins with Dad resisting the idea of naming the baby after him, in case his first born turned out to be “a loser.”

    I notice dolt45 wasn’t named after his dad.

  10. 10

    There just isn’t anything redeemable about Donald Trump. Nothing. Nothing at all. I don’t know if I ever saw such an awful person in my life. Almost everybody has something you can point to and say, “Yeah, O.K., I can see that that’s kind of good.” Not this guy. He hasn’t done one thing, said one thing I ever heard of that’s even in the neighborhood of neutral. It’s all just so unrelentingly vile and foul and awful. He’s the worst person I’ve ever heard of being in American politics, even counting John C. Calhoun, Jefferson Davis, Joseph McCarthy, Nixon and Dick Cheney.

  11. 11
  12. 12
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
    Don’t forget Andrew Jackson, Trump’s idol.

    @Baud:
    I’m glad he’s said that too, especially considering his past relationship to Obama and his public profile. Maybe some people will be swayed?

  13. 13
    Jim says:

    Ah, yes, Bella Abzug. She was the one who got me to really respect strong, smart women. Good memories.

  14. 14
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.): There’s some story about his lending a private plane to get some homeward-bound soldiers… somewhere. It came up as a meme during the campaign. That was the only story I ever heard of Trump choosing to be a decent person. I wonder how bullshit it actually was.

  15. 15
    Baud says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    If forced to say something positive about Trump, I would have to say he is a decent showman. He knows how to draw attention to himself pretty well.

  16. 16
  17. 17
    Baud says:

    @FlipYrWhig: I have to chuckle at the recent stories about Trump pledging to pay the legal bills for those who might testify against him. That’s not even tax deductible. No way that happens.

  18. 18
  19. 19
    Mnemosyne says:

    @germy:

    I’m too lazy to look it up, but I think Donald’s older brother was the “junior.” You know, the one whose kid Donald tried to cut off the family health insurance when Donnie got into a money dispute with the baby’s mother, aka his brother’s widow.

  20. 20
    sm*t cl*de says:

    he and Eric called hysterically to report they had found their nanny unconscious in the basement. (She died.)

    Oh noes! Nanny tripped and fell down the stairs!

  21. 21
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @sm*t cl*de:

    Oh noes! Nanny tripped and fell down the stairs!

    I wonder how much of an accident that was?
    @Omnes Omnibus:
    I would hope he would.

  22. 22
    jnfr says:

    Trump has banned WH tour guides "from talking about or recognizing Obama as the last President." Has fired 3 already.— Rogue WH Snr Advisor (@RogueSNRadvisor) October 22, 2017

  23. 23
    sm*t cl*de says:

    Easier 2 take u seriously when u dont look like a stripper;)

    Subtext creeping though there. How many directories on Don Jnr’s computers & devices are dedicated to photos from that stage in his stepmother’s career when she was that way employed?

  24. 24
    Baud says:

    @jnfr: I’ll wait for verification.

    We should plan White House tour where everyone wears a shirt with Obama on it.

  25. 25
    sukabi says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: now to be “fair” he only gave classified info to his mistress…as far as we know he drew the line at lying for treasonous Klan members.

  26. 26
    Elizabelle says:

    @germy: LOL. What’s sad, though, is that there was a Fred, Jr., older than Donald, who was not interested in the family business, but was a talented pilot. Worked for TWA for a while, I think. But ended up an alcoholic who died in his mid-40s. Believe he ended up doing maintenance work at the Trump properties toward the end. And his kids — one of whom had special needs — were cut out of Fred the Empire Builder’s Slumlord’s will.

    So: Donald is a jerk, no doubt, but he may have been thinking of his older brother. Who, I think, he did love and is haunted by.

  27. 27
    gene108 says:

    @germy:

    I notice dolt45 wasn’t named after his dad.

    Second born son. His older brother was Fred, Jr., who drank himself to death in the 1970’s.

  28. 28
    opiejeanne says:

    @FlipYrWhig: it was total bullshit.

  29. 29
    sm*t cl*de says:

    criticizing T party?

    Dude, you’re not supposed to come out and say that the US Presidency is being run as the Trump family business.

  30. 30
    Mike in NC says:

    @Baud: Makes one wonder if some tourist who went to the White House wearing a MAGA cap would get whisked to the front of the line.

  31. 31
    NotMax says:

    Not normally the type of thing I’d link to but seems to fit in on this particular thread. FYI.

    APA Fires ‘Stranger Things’ Star’s Agent Following Sex Abuse Allegation Source

  32. 32
    Gin & Tonic says:

    From the “more proof Trump is Putin’s bitch” file, the US has apparently revoked Bill Browder’s visa.

  33. 33
    Elizabelle says:

    @ germy:

    From a somewhat sympathetic story, NY Times, January 2016, For Donald Trump, Lessons From a Brother’s Suffering.

    What Donald was possibly fearing, in naming his firstborn son after himself, although he’s rather kind in his quotes about Freddy in this article. Freddy, of course, presents no competition, being dead for over 30 years now.

    … For Mr. Trump, a presidential candidate whose appeal is predicated on an aura of toughness, personal achievement and perpetual success, [suckers! Thanks, morons.] the story of Freddy, a handsome, gregarious and self-destructive figure who died as an alcoholic in 1981 at the age of 43, is bleak and seldom told.

    In a telephone interview last week, Mr. Trump said he had learned by watching his brother how bad choices could drag down even those who seemed destined to rise. Seeing his brother suffering led him to avoid ever trying alcohol or cigarettes, he said.

    But the painful case of Freddy Trump, eight years his brother’s senior and once the heir apparent to their father’s real estate empire, also serves as an example of the dangers of failing to conform in a family dominated by a driven, perfectionist patriarch and an aggressive younger brother.

    In the upwardly mobile Trump family, Donald was the second and favorite son, the one who got into the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School, relished the combat of New York real estate and ultimately made the Trump name an international brand. Freddy was the disappointment, who lacked the killer instinct and drifted so far from his father’s ambitions that his children were largely cut out of the patriarch’s will.

    … At the time [when Freddy was in college at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania], Donald looked up to his brother and kept a photograph of him, standing next to an airplane, in his dorm room at military school.

    But he also looked toward a future without him in the way. According to “The Trumps: Three Generations That Built an Empire,” by Gwenda Blair, Donald told his roommate that Freddy’s decision to be a pilot rather than run the family business had cleared a path for him to succeed his father.

    ….. The years that followed were unkind. [The 1970s, Freddy] got divorced, quit flying because he knew his drinking presented a danger and failed at commercial fishing in Florida. By the late 1970s, he was living back in his parents’ house in Jamaica Estates, working on one of his father’s maintenance crews.

    By then, Donald had broken into the Manhattan real estate market and the city’s celebrity culture. A younger brother, Robert, had followed in Donald’s footsteps, joining the family company and eventually becoming a top executive there.

    Also, it was the grandchild who had special needs and got cut out of the will; Fred III’s child.

  34. 34
    NotMax says:

    Bad linky above. Corrected link.

  35. 35
    boatboy_srq says:

    @germy: So much winning in that family.

    /s

  36. 36
    debbie says:

    I wish I had the cash to stake a reward for the reporter who asked Sheriff Dave to explain why his hat isn’t a whacky hat like the Congresswoman’s.

  37. 37
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Jim: I got to shake Bella Abzug’s hand sometime in my early twenties. She was standing in front of the subway stairs of my station, greeting potential voters. It was cold out, she was wearing a big red hat, I was on my way to catch my train, awestruck and charmed that she’d wanted to shake my hand. A cherished memory.

    Growing up in NYC, I was aware of Trump from an early age. Nobody liked him.

  38. 38

    What does it matter what kind of hat she is wearing? The man with a silly comb over has some nerve.

  39. 39
    Brachiator says:

    As a toddler, Don Jr. broke his leg due to a negligent babysitter. Then one day when Ivana was out of town, he and Eric called hysterically to report they had found their nanny unconscious in the basement. (She died.)

    This is insane. Trump’s entire life, business and personal, has been steeped in chaos. Kids in this situation would need all kinds of comfort and reassurance, but I doubt that is what happened.

    And Trump seems to have raised his sons to be snarling attack dogs.

  40. 40
    TriassicSands says:

    I don’t like cowboy hats. Same goes for cowboy boots. But I don’t care what Wilson puts on her head. I care what she believes and votes for in Congress. What she wears is her business and I don’t care at all if our sartorial tastes differ. I doubt she’d be impressed with my wardrobe.

    When I see photos of Wilson, I can’t help but smile. It’s not a mean-spirited or condescending smile at all. I don’t smile when I see (or hear) Clarke.

    David Clarke calling Wilson a buffoon is priceless. From the looks of the photo, his pinhead can’t really fill his 10-ounce hat.

  41. 41
    Ruckus says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:
    I doubt it. For all his faults, I’d bet he really feels this way. Lots of military people understand what the document says. We were given better civics lessons in boot camp than I got in HS. It wasn’t swallow this bullshit at all, it was here is the document, what does it say and what does it mean to you as a person serving in the military.

  42. 42
    martian says:

    @Elizabelle: Donald is, by all accounts, the reason his brother’s family was cut out of the will. Why would you think he loved him?

  43. 43
    Brachiator says:

    @Felony Govt (formerly Old Broad in California):

    . Interesting how all black Democratic Congresswomen are now “Maxine Watters” (sic)

    And also Al Sharpton.

    Trump Jr, like his daddy, does the Racist 2 Step real good.

  44. 44
    JPL says:

    @Brachiator:

    And Trump seems to have raised his sons to be snarling attack dogs.

    money, money, money

  45. 45
    Ruckus says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    even counting John C. Calhoun, Jefferson Davis, Joseph McCarthy, Nixon and Dick Cheney.

    Not sure that wouldn’t hold if you combined all of them. People have stated that GWB was worse because of the harm he’s caused. It took GWB how many years to get there, and he had the guiding hand of one of your list. But he could at least sound like he wasn’t broken. drumpf is a 200+ lb walking infectious pustule who has done nothing good. NOTHING. And he’s had 70 yrs.

  46. 46
  47. 47
    Uncle Ebeneezer says:

    We just started watching American Vandal the other night and it is SOOOOOOO good!! It is a pitch-perfect spoof of Making A Murderer/Serial/The Jinx and other examples of that sort of story-telling that is so prevalent nowadays. Check it out if you need a light-hearted laugh.

  48. 48
    Ruviana says:

    @Baud: I LOVE this! It could be a Baud!2020 fundraiser!

  49. 49
    Gary K says:

    Easier 2 take u seriously when u dont look like you’re wearing a clear plastic raincoat and playing “Hip to be Square.”

  50. 50
    SFAW says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    What does it matter what kind of hat she is wearing? The man with a silly comb over has some nerve.

    It was Uday/Qusay who tweeted that, not Shitgibbon.

  51. 51

    @SFAW: I think father dear did call her whacky or something like that.

  52. 52
    SFAW says:

    @Ruckus:

    drumpf is a 200+ lb walking infectious pustule who has done nothing good. NOTHING. And he’s had 70 yrs.

    Well, he did save us from having a warmongress President.

    *sob*

  53. 53
    Ruckus says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    I wonder if drumpf brought in Kelly to create order so he wouldn’t have to deal with as much bullshit every day. It was said to be a total clown show in the WH. How can drumpf think about his golf game if he keeps constantly getting interrupted by other 4 yr olds just walking in his office? Even a kindergarten has some level of organization.
    ETA drumpf wasn’t going to do this himself, he wanted it done right.

  54. 54
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    She nails it:

    Kelly and Trump seem to actually have a lot in common. They both display disdain for the press and contempt for critics. Kelly rails at treatment of (“sacred”) women but enthusiastically serves a president who serially insults and abuses women. Rather than address criticism, Kelly and Trump both like to pull rank, treat critics as their lessers and react indignantly when anyone questions their motives.

    CNN’s Jake Tapper had it exactly right in his appearance Friday afternoon. “When a reporter pointed out just minutes ago that Kelly had gotten his facts wrong about this speech, White House press secretary Sarah Sanders said one of the most shocking things I’ve ever heard from that podium — she suggested that journalists cannot question generals,” he said. “That’s not how we do it here in the United States.” But then, Trump has made destruction of democratic values and institutions a feature of his presidency.

    The press puts out “fake” news. The special prosecutor is on a witch hunt. The courts have no power to second-guess the president on the travel ban. It’s all part of Trump’s imperiousness and determination to delegitimize all independent sources of information and criticism. Kelly, rather than restrain these authoritarian impulses, fuels them.

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    Right Turn Opinion
    Let’s not staff a White House with generals ever again
    By Jennifer Rubin
    October 22 at 12:00 PM
    Play Video 1:11
    Wilson says Kelly ‘lied’ about her 2015 comments. Now there’s video from the event.

    0:00

    Wilson says Kelly ‘lied’ about her 2015 comments. Now there’s video of the event. (Thomas Johnson/The Washington Post)
    In defending his boss, White House Chief of Staff John F. Kelly gratuitously attacked Rep. Frederica S. Wilson (D-Fla.), derisively referred to her as being like “empty barrels,” misrepresented her conduct at a dedication of an FBI building and, even when film of the event showed his characterization to be utterly false, did not apologize. Kelly deemed it appropriate to restrict questions to reporters with a connection to a Gold Star family, as if one group of Americans (and their readers and viewers) is more worthy than another. However, when White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders warned reporters not to criticize Kelly (or his slander of Wilson), the administration took on the creepy aura of a military junta.

    The Post reported:

    Instead of backing down, White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders piled on Friday and said Kelly was justified in accusing the lawmaker of grandstanding, despite erring on the facts. “As we say in the South: all hat, no cattle,” Sanders said of Wilson, an African American who is known for wearing brightly colored cowboy hats.

    Sanders also attempted to shift the debate away from Kelly’s inaccuracies to instead focus on his personal integrity.

    “If you want to get into a debate with a four-star Marine general, I think that that’s something highly inappropriate,” she said.

    No one in service of our country is beyond reproach or immune from criticism. Generals get criticized and every day must answer to politicians, who in turn are responsible to the public. (Trump, by the way, routinely demeaned generals — whom he claimed had been “reduced to rubble” — in the presidential campaign.) We don’t believe in the divine right of kings or the infallibility of military or civilian leaders. And Kelly, now in a civilian role, certainly should not be permitted to deploy his military service record, no matter how admirable that may have been, to deflect criticism and shut up the press.

    Kelly and Trump seem to actually have a lot in common. They both display disdain for the press and contempt for critics. Kelly rails at treatment of (“sacred”) women but enthusiastically serves a president who serially insults and abuses women. Rather than address criticism, Kelly and Trump both like to pull rank, treat critics as their lessers and react indignantly when anyone questions their motives.

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    CNN’s Jake Tapper had it exactly right in his appearance Friday afternoon. “When a reporter pointed out just minutes ago that Kelly had gotten his facts wrong about this speech, White House press secretary Sarah Sanders said one of the most shocking things I’ve ever heard from that podium — she suggested that journalists cannot question generals,” he said. “That’s not how we do it here in the United States.” But then, Trump has made destruction of democratic values and institutions a feature of his presidency.

    The press puts out “fake” news. The special prosecutor is on a witch hunt. The courts have no power to second-guess the president on the travel ban. It’s all part of Trump’s imperiousness and determination to delegitimize all independent sources of information and criticism. Kelly, rather than restrain these authoritarian impulses, fuels them.

    Conventional wisdom has been telling us that Kelly has created a more disciplined and effective White House. He’s supposed to be taking his shifts for supervision of an erratic, irrational president. I don’t see it.

    Since Kelly’s arrival, Trump has ignited explosive cultural confrontations, failed again to repeal Obamacare and looked thoroughly hapless in his inability to articulate or stick to any position for more than an hour or so. Trump blusters and threatens North Korea; he alarms European allies by threatening to trash the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action. Trump under Kelly’s “day care” still has not filled a slew of top-level posts. Trump is not becoming more competent, more focused, more civil or more respectful of others under Kelly’s tutelage. In fact, he’s getting worse on all four counts. Kelly’s eagerness to defend the president’s unconscionable behavior and Kelly’s own lack of respect for civilian politicians simply feed Trump’s demons.

    Kelly should be replaced by someone who actually understands democratic governance and can deliver bad news and honest criticism to the president. Going forward, Congress needs to stomp out creeping military authoritarianism. Congress should start by barring generals from acting in civilian capacities in the White House.

  55. 55
    Ruckus says:

    @SFAW:
    Who was that?

    /snark. just in case.

  56. 56
    SFAW says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I think father dear did call her whacky or something like that.

    He did. But I don’t think he mentioned hats, leaving that heavy lifting to “Sheriff” Psycho Clarke (who is probably just as evil as Shitgibbon, but [in my opinion] considerably more deranged, difficult tho’ that might be). And Uday’s moronic tweet was from six years ago.

  57. 57
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @SFAW: Who looks like the villainous rich kid from the evil douche frat in an 80s campus comedy.

  58. 58
    chopper says:

    even tho I’m cynical as hell, I was still blown away by the gall ex-sheriff clarke showed by criticizing rep. wilson’s tendency to wear wacky hats. it’s like trump attacking someone for wearing a clownishly long tie.

  59. 59
    Matt McIrvin says:

    “Frederica Wilson wears a silly hat” is clearly the new “Michael Moore is fat”, a universal refutation for all statements.

  60. 60
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:
    Why doesn’t the edit function work all of the time? The time doesn’t run out either. I hit save and the changes don’t show up.

  61. 61
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @jnfr:

    W.

    T.

    EVERLOVING FUCK?

  62. 62
    SFAW says:

    @Ruckus:

    Who was that?

    Hell,
    I don’t know. Some
    Loser who
    Lied
    About e-mails, and was the
    Real criminal and warmonger,
    Yes indeedy

    I still can’t believe that so many morons are able to vote in this country, when people who actually pay attention are prevented from doing so.

  63. 63
    Balconesfault says:

    And Hillary said childrearing was Trump’s good suit.

    Damn she had terrible political instincts.

  64. 64
    joel hanes says:

    @Jim:

    Shirley Chisholm
    Barbara Jordan

  65. 65
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Balconesfault:
    The level of sunlight that the Presidency brings to not only the president but all those around them reveals the rot underneath for all to see. I never knew Ivanka and Don Jr were such scum based on watching The Apprentice. I do wonder if Trump would be President right now if NBC execs had never let him be the star.
    Then again he did make cameos on Fresh Prince and Home Alone, so he already had some national celebrity.

  66. 66
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @SFAW:

    Hell,
    I don’t know. Some
    Loser who
    Lied
    About e-mails, and was the
    Real criminal and warmonger,
    Yes indeedy

    Fucking poetry, that is. Very nice.

  67. 67
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Balconesfault:

    Go fuck yourself, asshole.

  68. 68

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    One wonders if Trump would President right now if NBC execs had never let him be the star.

    No, he wouldn’t. Being a celeb on the TV machine probably adds 1 to 2 percent to their vote.

  69. 69
    Suzanne says:

    @Matt McIrvin: Don’t forget about Al Gore being fat. Or Bill Clinton being a rapist. Or Michelle Obama wearing a sleeveless top. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

  70. 70
    Gerald Parks says:

    @Baud:
    It is not his money. It is the donations to his campaign from the American public. You don’t believe he’d use his money … do you?

  71. 71

    I’m still trying to decide whether to go to PV or Malibu to take the last of the season’s Milky Way pics.

  72. 72
    SFAW says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Go fuck yourself, asshole.

    I am hoping he/she was being ironic.

    How’s your knee, by the way?

  73. 73
    Roger Moore says:

    @TriassicSands:

    I don’t like cowboy hats. Same goes for cowboy boots.

    I think they’re both fine, as long as they’re worn by actual cowboys. I don’t like all hat/no cattle idiots like David Clarke who wear cowboy hats because they like the image.

  74. 74
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @SFAW:

    I still can’t believe that so many morons are able to vote in this country, when people who actually pay attention are prevented from doing so.

    That’s the idea. Look up Mexico’s Perfect Dictatorship period where the Institutional Revolutionary Party ruled Mexico for 71 years through patronage and intimidation.

  75. 75
    woodrowfan says:

    she does wear stupid looking hats. But I’d take her as my rep any day over the best-dressed reactionary shitgibbon republican. At least she doesn’t wear a bunch of souvenir pins in the hopes they look like military medals like Sheriff Tom…

  76. 76
    SFAW says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Fucking poetry, that is. Very nice.

    Yeah, I’m a regular ee cummings, or maybe Grunthos the Flatulent.

    I was considering throwing in an “On Wisconsin” for the Chem E crowd, but that one would be about three levels beyond esoteric. Well, except maybe for the Chem E crowd, that is.

  77. 77
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @TriassicSands: David Clarke is a man who wears a jacket covered with pins that he arranges as if they were military decorations. He is literally cosplaying in all of his public appearances.

  78. 78
    trollhattan says:

    @Suzanne:
    You’re saving the worst thing of all: tan suit!

  79. 79
    SFAW says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    Well, I knew PRI had run things for a long time, but I don’t think I knew about the reason(s)/causes for that. Thanks.

  80. 80
    Ruckus says:

    @SFAW:

    Grunthos the Flatulent.

    I’m having a time seeing that. Not a hard time mind you but still……..
    And BTW LOL.

  81. 81
    SFAW says:

    @Ruckus:

    I’m having a time seeing that. Not a hard time mind you but still……..

    Thanks. Didn’t need to add the “BTW,” I enjoyed it. As I sometimes tell people (when they aren’t quick enough to tell me “STFU!” that is): I have a face made for radio, and when I sing, strong men cry and animals scream. My poetry is somewhere on that continuum/spectrum.

  82. 82
    Mnemosyne says:

    @SFAW:

    If it was irony, it violated Poe’s Law by saying the same shit I’ve seen other people say unironically.

    The knee is slowly improving. I’ve tried to stay off it all day and am now having a small bout of cabin fever.

  83. 83
    sharl says:

    @sm*t cl*de: Congrats on your new PM, even if she did achieve office under weird circumstances! From a distance she looks quite promising, although I don’t know enough about the workings of NZ’s parliamentary government to ascertain how much of her own agenda she’ll be able to get enacted.

    I hope your politics doesn’t get too raucous for Peter Thiel’s beautiful mind though. Presumably he acquired NZ citizenship to avoid that sort of thing.

  84. 84
    Lyrebird says:

    @TriassicSands: I like hats but have never really gotten sequins. But I am not from Miami, and… everything you said.

    Also, I refuse to read more about the personal life of the president-unwilling-his-asterisk until it’s a report on his visitation rights in prison, but goodness what a creep his son has turned out to be! “stripper”??????? WHat the Ever Loving F..?

    Nasty piece of work, he is. Fits with John’s most recent post title as well.

    And I still hope Nancy SMASH! persuades someone to give every Dem Rep a shiny sequin-y hat to wear to the next vote. Yes including Rep. Adler, on whom it will look hideous, but he has a beautiful soul fwih, unlike the creeps in the maladministration.

  85. 85
    Mike G says:

    Easier 2 take u seriously when u dont look like a stripper;)

    It’s impossible to take a sheriff from Milwaukee seriously when he dresses up like Hootie.

  86. 86

    @chopper: Comical that the guy who looks like a Cracker Jack prize factory exploded in his face wants to comment on someone ELSE looking wacky. He’s a huckabucking clown.

    Also, I hate clowns.

  87. 87
    Ruckus says:

    @Matt McIrvin:
    I’ve seen lots of motorcycle people who wear vests with patches and pins but I’ve never seen one arranged to look like the fake medals that high ranking officers wear. (We used to call the guys pins and patches in fact) I think I had to wear one, signifying I served during a time of war. BTW that one is fairly easy to get, I understand that we’ve been at war somewhere 232 yrs out of the 241 that the country has existed. But I look at officers medals and wonder how and more importantly why the fuck there are so many. And then I look at fake sheriff Clarke, whose only job was running the county jail, and I wonder What The Ever Loving Fuck? I mean my life has turned out exactly nothing like I envisioned it when I was 7, but really, medals? As an adult?

  88. 88
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    This country is now in an awful place with regard to the fetishization of the military. Neither Kelly nor Sanders would have said their bullshit without a ready cohort of bootlick authoritarians prepared and eager to support them.

    I uttered the truest form of criticism of Kelly on Twitter – refused to hold back. My mentions are nuts as a result (also confirms my strong opinion that twitter is a shithole).

  89. 89
    Ruckus says:

    @SFAW:

    and when I sing, strong men cry and animals scream.

    So better than my singing voice.

  90. 90
  91. 91

    @Balconesfault:
    Sadly, I think she was right. Trump’s most admirable trait is how much his family loves him. As horrific a mess as his family is, that is still his BEST trait.

  92. 92
    Ruckus says:

    @trollhattan:
    I’ll have you know it’s Clarke. Don’t dis such an outstanding douchebag.
    It took me a long time to understand why we had to stand like we had 20 lb weights clipped to our nipples. It was all the medals that officers wore, making them liable to fall forwards in even a light tail wind. Those guys have just taken it to the next level.

  93. 93
    Ruckus says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Trump’s most admirable trait is how much his family loves him.

    A fart couldn’t squeak under that low a bar.

  94. 94
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    I uttered the truest form of criticism of Kelly on Twitter – refused to hold back. My mentions are nuts as a result (also confirms my strong opinion that twitter is a shithole).

    Are a bunch of right-wing flag-waving slobs attacking you?

  95. 95

    @Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant):

    Also, I hate clowns.

    All rational people do.

  96. 96
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Ruckus: If it was a Starfleet uniform I’d have more respect.

  97. 97
    opiejeanne says:

    OT: Is Indivisible a good group? I got invited to their meetings today by the guy dropping off the yard sign for our state Senate race. I thought I read that they tend to be run by the Berners but I don’t know for sure. When I asked him about the local Democratic Party meetings he had no idea about them. Seemed like a nice guy, about our age 70ish but their online articles seem to be sneering at the Democratic Party, claiming they’re getting things done that the Democrats didn’t bother to.

  98. 98
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Felony Govt (formerly Old Broad in California): And also interesting how a Black woman wearing a hat looks like a stripper.

  99. 99
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @TriassicSands: Clarke should be in jail for allowing a prisoner in his care to thirst to death for close to a week. He has no place to be calling anyone out.

    By the way, why is Rep Wilson being harassed for speaking the truth?

  100. 100

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: The generals are not holding the line, they have fallen in line and expect all of us to do the same, or else..
    That was the gist of Kelly’s performance from the WH podium.

  101. 101
    Another Scott says:

    @opiejeanne: I liked their “Indivisible Guide”. I haven’t kept up with them.

    I’m sure it depends on who is willing to show up to the particular groups. Look around in your area. Around here, there are dozens of groups within 20 miles of my zip code.

    HTH. Good luck!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  102. 102
    Mom Says I*m Handsome says:

    @SFAW:

    I was considering throwing in an “On Wisconsin” for the Chem E crowd, but that one would be about three levels beyond esoteric. Well, except maybe for the Chem E crowd, that is.

    I am intrigued by your poems and wish to subscribe to your anthology.

  103. 103

    @Patricia Kayden: Don’t forget forcing a female inmate to give birth WHILE SHACKLED. He’s a miserable excuse for a human being.

  104. 104
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    Oh I’m so scared. What’s Kelly gonna do? Wag his finger and berate me for having the temerity to question his authority? He doesn’t even have the same powers as he did as DHS. He can go fuck himself.

  105. 105

    @Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant): The government is currently hold a pregnant minor in immigration detention and not providing access to abortion that she wants. Her only options are deportation to a country where abortion is illegal or she has to give birth.

  106. 106
  107. 107
    Baud says:

    @schrodingers_cat: What depends on T? Our First Amendment rights? I don’t think so.

  108. 108
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    What is Trump gonna do to me? I’m natural born American citizen. He may an authoritarian asshole, but the system still has some limits on him. He can’t just have people who don’t like killed.
    @schrodingers_cat:
    I really don’t understand that. Going by their ideology, shouldn’t they want her to have an abortion?

  109. 109
    Balconesfault says:

    @Mnemosyne: F yourself.

    When Hillary complimented Trump on being a good father in the debates, I was screaming “why humanize that horrible person?”

    A lot of answers she could have given better than that. But she couldn’t if it wasn’t scripted. Not her strength.

  110. 110

    @Baud: No the damage that Kelly can do in his current position.

  111. 111
    No Drought No More says:

    “Eric called hysterically to report they had found their nanny unconscious in the basement. (She died.)”.

    I heard she was found with her bra unhooked, her panties on backwards, and bruises on her face and neck. When the dust settled, though, to quote Tom Hagen, it was indeed “as though she never existed”.

    Is Eric the one his father once punched in the mouth because he wasn’t wearing a suit and tie when pops stopped by to pick him up to go to a baseball game? If so, way to go, Mr. President. It must have felt like hitting a mirror, eh?

  112. 112
    Kay says:

    The Kelly thing seemed different to me- worse than usual- like a new low. A dramatic drop rather than the slow, daily erosion. I think it was different because it was clearly a team effort- the whole administration pulling together to tell a bunch of lies and smear this woman. Usually they succeed in making it seem like it’s Trump alone.

    It’ll be like that I bet- they’ll be going along on a steady decline and then – boom- we drop a whole floor. It won’t be a steady fall. I hadn’t considered that though, that it could speed up.

  113. 113
    ruemara says:

    @opiejeanne: They are, sadly, often Berner co-opted. You should still join, the main group has good organizing principles and it’s useful to help out. The thing to do is demand they act like their name and not like the Bernie worshiping splinter group some will make them into.

  114. 114
    Baud says:

    @schrodingers_cat: But not to Goku! Kelly can’t have more power than Trump, and Trump can’t touch Goku.

  115. 115

    @Baud: Sure. But what they are doing is eroding our collective sense of well being.

  116. 116
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    Just so you know, I’m not making fun of you. I think Kelly’s contempt for the press and by extension anyone who questions someone in a uniform is incredibly disturbing and damaging, but he doesn’t have the power of life and death anymore, not like he did.

  117. 117
    Another Scott says:

    @Balconesfault:

    RADDATZ: We’ve sneaked in one more question, and it comes from Karl Becker.

    QUESTION: Good evening. My question to both of you is, regardless of the current rhetoric, would either of you name one positive thing that you respect in one another?

    HRC gave a good answer.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  118. 118
  119. 119
  120. 120
    Corner Stone says:

    @Another Scott: No, she did not.
    “He’s dangerously unfit to hold this office and there are no positive aspects of his history, record, or character that I could possibly praise or recommend.”

  121. 121
    Kay says:

    The Trump kids found their nanny unconscious in the basement and then she died? My God, was this ever investigated? She’s just disposable? These people. It must have taken HUNDREDS of willing accomplices for them to get this far.

  122. 122
    Baud says:

    @Kay: Joe Scarborough is on it!

  123. 123

    @Kay: I don’t know what was the most disturbing
    1. Old school paternalism about women
    2. Old school racism of the white man’s burden variety (we are in Africa to teach them human rights)
    3.The lies
    4. Brietbartian racism against Rep Wilson and the Khans.
    5. The militaristic jingoism.

    ETA: I found a CSPAN video where he was rude to Kamala Harris. Dude has issues.

  124. 124
    Baud says:

    @Corner Stone: It’s too bad she didn’t know she was going to lose the electoral college vote. The campaign could have been a lot more fun.

  125. 125
    Baud says:

    @schrodingers_cat: All of them, Katie!

  126. 126
    Corner Stone says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    The level of sunlight that the Presidency brings to not only the president but all those around them reveals the rot underneath for all to see. I never knew Ivanka and Don Jr were such scum

    This was not a mystery. His entire family were grifters. It was obvious at the time and during the entire primary and GE season. I commented here in realtime in disbelief that she would answer that garbage time question in such a way. It was obvious.

  127. 127
    opiejeanne says:

    @Another Scott: Yeah, I liked the Indivisible Guide. I didn’t like the tone of the online site, but you’re right, it will probably depend on who shows up at the local level. However, if I find out the national group is run by people sympathetic to Nomiki Konst or Susan Sarandon I will bail.

  128. 128
    Millard Filmore says:

    @FlipYrWhig: I think that was back in the time that Trump took over the former Easter Airlines NY-DC shuttle. A RWNJ faces “friend” put up a picture with that story last year. Since Dolt-45 does not do charity I suspect that he allowed the DOD to charter one of his airplanes to move some soldiers.

  129. 129
    sharl says:

    @Balconesfault: When Hillary complimented Trump on being a good father in the debates, I was screaming “why humanize that horrible person?”

    It’s possible that maybe – maybe – Hillary could have come up with a less bile-inducing compliment for Trump than that, but only if she and her staff had decided the anticipated question was sufficiently important to have devoted more effort to come up with something that was at least ambiguously complimentary, but preferably something sharp and double-edged.

    I was more annoyed at the typical political media bullshit that came up with this sort of nonsensical inquiry based on performative civility, but until VDE’s tumbrels arrive to deal with that media lot, we’re stuck with them. I could wish for the return of the less entertaining but far more issues-oriented League of Women Voters debate days of my youth, but I could also wish for a 24K gold-shitting unicorn; I’m not going to get either.

  130. 130
    Ruckus says:

    @Kay:
    Well when things don’t get better for him, drumpf always seems to double down on the stupid. Why would being president make that any different? Nothing else ever has. And you do understand that he isn’t capable of making himself better. And there aren’t enough ass lickers in the world to make him better. So no, I don’t see this going in any way but down and once things start downhill with no brakes of any kind, they pick up speed. We put runaway truck ramps on our highways for just such a problem but we have no runaway drumpf ramps. OK we have a couple but they are as broken as he is. He’s going to be the bestest, worst president ever, if he doesn’t take all of us with him as he goes.

  131. 131

    @Baud: Indeed. I don’t care how much brass he had on his uniform when he retired, his post military career as a T minion has been problematic.

  132. 132
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Corner Stone:
    Shrill.

  133. 133
    Kay says:

    @Baud:

    OMG, Donald Trump’s nanny. I forgot about the female household staff. They all should have had bodyguards.

  134. 134
    Baud says:

    @schrodingers_cat: You had his number from the beginning.

  135. 135
    Baud says:

    @Kay: Their NDAs need to be invalidated.

  136. 136

    @sharl: I would have said, he has the knack of being the center of attention no matter the situation. But then I am not a politician but a mere cat with sharp claws.

    ETA: What Baud said earlier.

  137. 137
    opiejeanne says:

    @Balconesfault: She was asked by the moderator to say something nice about him. What would you have said? I thought at that point, before we knew what we know now about the kids, that his kids were the only thing remotely decent about him.

  138. 138
    Baud says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Hey, I said that upthread.

  139. 139
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @sharl:
    It’s hard to believe this is the same media where Walter Cronkite called Chicago a police state in 1968. That would never happen today.

  140. 140

    @Baud: Oops, I should have cited you! I didn’t read all the comments.

  141. 141
    Kay says:

    @Ruckus:

    I was just getting used to the slow steady decline in standards and now I have possible precipitous drops to deal with. I’ll be fine- I just hadn’t considered that.

    Well if it gets bad we’ll do something. What I don’t know but you can count me in! :)

  142. 142
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Corner Stone:
    I honestly didn’t know his family was that bad until after he was sworn in.

  143. 143
    sm*t cl*de says:

    @sharl:

    Congrats on your new PM, even if she did achieve office under weird circumstances! From a distance she looks quite promising

    Thanks! I take personal credit for her electoral results and successful coalition-building.
    PM’s cat has her own twittle account. https://twitter.com/FirstCatofNZ
    You get Trump; we get Paddles the polydactyl.

  144. 144
    sharl says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Haha. I’m guessing that Trump would have probably found nothing disagreeable or negative about that, although his media surrogates would probably have had a very different response.

  145. 145
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Balconesfault:

    You got exactly what you wished for: Anyone But Hillary. Too late to whine about it now, sucker.

  146. 146
  147. 147
    Corner Stone says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: Then you are a garbage human being. Trumpist!

  148. 148
    sharl says:

    @sm*t cl*de: LOL. Sure, rub it in, why dontcha! {Clicks over to check out FirstCatofNZ…}

  149. 149
    efgoldman says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Trump’s most admirable trait is how much his family loves him. As horrific a mess as his family is, that is still his BEST trait.

    Stockholm syndrome

  150. 150
    Kay says:

    @Baud:

    I’m no Neal Gorsuch but even I know you can’t enforce a contract to cover up illegal activity. I don’t care what they sign- they’re still permitted to report criminal activity and I believe assaulting a nanny is unlawful. This NDA thing seems to be perceived as some kind of get out of jail card- to add to the deck.

  151. 151
    Baud says:

    @Corner Stone: Maybe he just got all his news from the New York Times.

  152. 152
    Baud says:

    @Kay:

    I think Neal Gorsuch is Trump’s get out of jail card.

  153. 153

    @schrodingers_cat: I know of that situation. I thought the courts intervened?

  154. 154
  155. 155
    Kay says:

    @Baud:

    I already loathe him. He has the eyes of a zealot. He’s so scolding too! None of these people are allowed to lecture me, about anything.

  156. 156
    Corner Stone says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: They don’t love him. They hate and fear him. Didn’t you see Ivanka waffle during the general election when it looked all but certain Trump was going to get crushed? She started protecting her brand and refused to be identified with her dad. There’s no way you can look at Donald Jr’s actions during the GE up til now and not conclude he secretly wants his dad to go to jail for a long, long time.

  157. 157
    Ruckus says:

    @Kay:
    A shit show is a shit show. You can’t change the character of a shit show.
    Worse for me is that there are people who are happy with the way things are going. Think what will happen to them when they find out he not only doesn’t love them, he doesn’t give a shit if they die, as long as he looks good, which of course he never does. I just hope he never has even a good minute for the rest of his miserable life. That’s not bad is it?

  158. 158
    sm*t cl*de says:

    @sharl:

    {Clicks over to check out FirstCatofNZ…}

    You definitely should. Paddles has NFLTG.
    https://twitter.com/FirstCatofNZ/status/922266117074063360

  159. 159

    @Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant): They did in the immigrant’s favor but the administration has obtained a stay order because she is a minor and has no sponsor they can release her to.

  160. 160
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Corner Stone:
    Or maybe Trump took up all the oxygen in the room at the time, I don’t know.

    But well played

  161. 161
    Mnemosyne says:

    @sm*t cl*de:

    Heh. I like that they at least attempt a plausible explanation for how a cat could be tweeting. 😹

  162. 162
    barb 2 says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    I grew up on military bases and was an eyewitness to physical abuse of wives and children. Not ALL the military husbands but a large percentage. There are news reports of men returning and then killing their wives and harming their children — so this behavior is still happening. Again NOT all — but the military messes with the service men’s minds. Many want their wives and children continue the military obedience and discipline pattern they have to adhere to. Add to the fact that the deployments are much longer than before W Bush’s time in office. Kids change and grow up while Dad is away. Wives must learn to cope and become independent — and some men can’t accept that fact.

    Anyway, this bowing down to the military makes me want to vomit. Each military person is an individual human and none are perfect — because humans aren’t perfect. Some are great dads and husbands and some should be in jail for child abuse. I will always remember a classmate in my 5th-grade class — his dad returned from a 6-month deployment and beat some sense into his son. We could see beating left by the belt buckle on his face. Today that father would be more careful — but the abuse would still happen.

    War is hell — and we now have an A-hole in the white house who has the nerve to threaten yet another war(s).

    Generals and Admirals can be as bad as the worst civilians — Prime examples — Trump and his chief of staff.

  163. 163
    Kay says:

    I didn’t know a thing about Ivana but she seems as awful as the rest of them based on what I’ve seen and the excerpts from this book, so that’s consistent. I hold out hope for Tiffany but you know that’ll be disappointing if she’s ever heard from.

  164. 164
    Corner Stone says:

    @Kay: He has the countenance of a complete asshole. One look at his face and it is easy to see – “asshole boss”.

  165. 165
    sharl says:

    @sm*t cl*de: haha, I already saw that tweet. That cat uses it’s claws!
    I like the idea of the PM herself running the account, but I am wondering if it is known over your way who is actually running it?

  166. 166

    @Kay: Amen sister. I am not a marine and he is no longer a general. Don’t tell me what to do.

    ETA: Sorry I didn’t realize you were talking about Gorsuch. He is the beneficiary of the theft of a Supreme Court seat. Low morals are low.

  167. 167
    Corner Stone says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: She was asked. She didn’t have to answer it that way. Her whole schtick was that a man who could be baited by a tweet should not have the nuclear codes. Telling the world he is the modern incarnation of Ward Cleaver was not going to help that case.

  168. 168
    opiejeanne says:

    @Corner Stone: I hope you’re kidding because I didn’t know how bad they were at that point, either.

  169. 169
    chris says:

    For reasons both personal and political the last couple of weeks have truly sucked. So I was happy to LOL at these kittens.

  170. 170
  171. 171
    SFAW says:

    @Mom Says I*m Handsome:

    I am intrigued by your poems and wish to subscribe to your anthology.

    Some unsolicited advice: seek professional help. Immediately!

  172. 172
    Corner Stone says:

    @Kay:

    I hold out hope for Tiffany but you know that’ll be disappointing if she’s ever heard from.

    She is just as nuts as the rest of them but with a Christo-fascist bent.

  173. 173

    @schrodingers_cat: Horrible, horrible people, the lot of them.

  174. 174
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Kay:
    I’d like to hear from Uncle Frank’s side of the family. I’m sure they have stories to tell.

  175. 175
    Ruckus says:

    @Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant):
    I believe the ACLU got a stay and on appeal lost.
    They are as bad as we think they are.
    You know laws don’t apply to any non whites, non males and especially any non white, non male, non citizens. I’m almost amazed that they didn’t send her back in a box.

  176. 176
    Corner Stone says:

    @opiejeanne: Try opening your eyes, lady! Trumpist!

  177. 177
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Corner Stone:
    Wasn’t that meme she shared comparing her father to Jesus fake though (as in a fake account shared it.)?

  178. 178
    Kay says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Maybe Marla’s normal. Probably not, though, honestly, considering the marriage.

  179. 179

    @Ruckus: It’s early yet. And frankly, I wouldn’t put anything past them.

  180. 180
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @opiejeanne:
    I legit thought they were fundamentally decent people who were along for the ride and just wanted to keep their inheritance from father. (And what could they have realistically done to stop him from running anyway)

  181. 181
    sm*t cl*de says:

    MINISTER OF BLEP UNDER SECRETARY FOR FLOOF
    @sharl:

    I like the idea of the PM herself running the account, but I am wondering if it is known over your way who is actually running it?

    It will be this dude.

  182. 182
    Kay says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    I think Trump keeps people from talking because he’ll tell what he knows about them. He will, too. God knows what would come out. Just look at FOX, what was going on there. 100 million dollars! That’s just sexual assault claims.

    Have none of these people ever heard of “calling the police”?

  183. 183
    opiejeanne says:

    @Corner Stone: Meh, fuck off.

  184. 184
    Ruckus says:

    @Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant):
    It would be nice if he’s not having any of those happy moments while he sits in jail for 30 yrs as well, rather than as an ex president.

  185. 185
    sharl says:

    @Kay: Did you see eemom’s link of two or three(?) days ago,to an interview with the well connected Nina Totenberg? Apparently Gorsuch is really grating on the nerves of at least some of his colleagues – especially Elena Kagan – to the point that someone did the rare thing of leaking accounts from the normally hush-hush internal conference get-togethers the Justices usually have as part of their deliberative process. Here’s a Slate link if you just want to read about it. The podcast is here, with Totenberg’s segment taking place 23m15s – 51m; Totenberg discusses the Gorsuch leak early on. I forget if it was there or somewhere else where Gorsuch was referred to as a Fox TV Justice, full of hubris and (apparently) not all that bright, at least by USSC standards.

  186. 186
    Corner Stone says:

    @opiejeanne: Exactly the response I would have expected from a Trump enthusiast. Go back to reading Erick Erickson!

  187. 187
    SFAW says:

    @opiejeanne:

    She was asked by the moderator to say something nice about him. What would you have said?

    Hindsight is 20-20 and all that, but the appropriate response is:

    “We’re competing to see who gets elected leader of the USA and, by extension, the Free World, and you’re asking a question like THAT? What’s next, our favorite colors? The swimsuit competition? You’ve been covering Washington for how long? And that platitudinous crap is the best you can come up with? Jesus H. Christ, Martha, will you get someone with a fucking clue out here, so I can get a question that’s not a steaming pile of Trump? Zombie Ed Murrow could do a better job than this half-wit. What, you’re STILL HERE, Karl? Take a hint.”

  188. 188
    Kay says:

    @sharl:

    I did see it, thank you.

    Patrick Chovanec‏
    @prchovanec
    Follow Follow @prchovanec
    More
    Trump Admin has revoked US visa for top Putin critic and driving force behind Magnitsky Act sanctions

    Nothing going on here! Nope! FINE.

  189. 189
    opiejeanne says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: I saw the photos of the animals the older sons had “hunted”. Giraffes? That marked the boys as assholes for me, but when Hillary mentioned his kids, I thought of Baron and Tiffany and Ivanka, and I thought Hillary was hedging with her answer. SOME of his kids seemed ok at that point but it’s obvious now that Ivanka is an opportunist, and worse.

  190. 190

    @Ruckus: I would also find that arrangement agreeable.

  191. 191
    burnspbesq says:

    @Baud:

    I have to chuckle at the recent stories about Trump pledging to pay the legal bills for those who might testify against him. That’s not even tax deductible.

    No lawyer who gives a shit about his/her ethical obligations would ever participate in such an arrangement.

    http://www.calbarjournal.com/J.....EthicsByte

  192. 192
    Thru the Looking Glass... says:

    @Baud:

    If forced to say something positive about Trump, I would have to say he is a decent showman. He knows how to draw attention to himself pretty well.

    Deliberately smearing yourself w/ excrement may indeed draw attention to you, but I’m not sure it makes one a decent showman…

  193. 193
    Mnemosyne says:

    @sm*t cl*de:

    I can see from the photos that he’s going to be as Internet popular as Justin Trudeau.

  194. 194
    opiejeanne says:

    @Corner Stone: Staahp. The joke is getting stale.

  195. 195
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Thru the Looking Glass…: The Aristocrats!

  196. 196
    Ruckus says:

    @barb 2:
    The military can give the impression that it’s all obedience, all the time but in fact we got taught different in training. The problem is of course that it can be damn difficult to tell a proper order from a bad one. And you don’t get a reset, you get arrested and jailed till they decide to deal with you. So while you might be able to tell right from wrong and a good order from a bad one, acting on that can be life altering to say the least. What that does is create a climate of absolute obedience. Not all those who stay in for a career believe in that but a lot do. It becomes difficult for some to separate military life from real life. And it can cause friction, to say the least. It’s one reason that we have a civilian controlled military and that is stressed a lot because that is a very dangerous place to be, between a military and it’s citizens.

  197. 197
    Corner Stone says:

    @opiejeanne: I was doing my best!

    ETA, probably one of the things I hate most about Trump. He has destroyed the ability to ride any middle ground satire/shit talking any longer. It’s now all or nothing. Bastard.

  198. 198
    opiejeanne says:

    @SFAW: Ha! The first half of your answer would have worked. The rest of it would have fed the “she’s too shrill!” narrative, but would have been implied by the first half.

  199. 199
    sharl says:

    @sm*t cl*de: Wow, what a charming-looking couple! It’s early of course, but were it not for the geographic distance, NZ’s new power couple could give Justin Trudeau a run for his money in gathering fans from the political left. Hell, in the age of social media the distance differential may not matter anyway.

    ETA: Mnem at 193 beat me to it.

  200. 200

    Lawyers of BJ I have question: How common is it for Presidents to roll back the previous President’s executive orders like T did with DACA. What are the past precedents for this sort of thing?
    Thanks.

  201. 201
    Baud says:

    @Thru the Looking Glass…: You’re kidding, right? That’s gold!

  202. 202
    Ruckus says:

    @Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant):
    I got the story wrong and I see mrs cat got it right.
    But bottom line the girl is in trouble and has no real place to turn to. Let’s see what happens Monday/Tuesday.

  203. 203
    Ruckus says:

    @opiejeanne:
    And that’s why he has a corner in the pie shop to himself.

  204. 204
    opiejeanne says:

    @Corner Stone: Yeah, I was debating your first response to Goku, thinking it was over the top. It’s hard to tell these days.

    I feel like I’m drowning in information these days, all of it bad or very bad or terrifying. I didn’t unplug at all for 18 months until November 9th, and then I spent a week in a fetal position. I still wake up some mornings hoping it was just a bad dream but it’s really a waking nightmare.

  205. 205

    @schrodingers_cat: IANAL but I know they all play ping-pong with the “Mexico City” abortion policy.

  206. 206
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @schrodingers_cat: NAL and I’m not sure if it’s technically an EO, but the Mexico City rule– cutting off (by Rs) and restitution (by Ds) of foreign aid to NGOs that support birth control (“abortion!”) seems to get steady partisan back-and-forth

  207. 207
    SFAW says:

    @opiejeanne:

    Yeah, sometimes I go on too long. [“SOMETIMES????” you’re thinking]

    Be that as it may, I still think that when Shitgibbon was stalking her during the Nth debate, she should have told him to “back the fuck off before I make you cry, you pu$$y-grabbing pu$$y.” Maybe a tad shrill, but it might have been worth it.

  208. 208
    Suzanne says:

    @Another Scott: I also think that HRC’s answer was good, considering that Chelsea is (was?) friends with Ivanka. At the time of that answer, we didn’t know how horrible they are. And Trump responded totally ungraciously….he said something like, “I don’t know if that’s a compliment”. What a douchebag.

  209. 209
    opiejeanne says:

    @Ruckus: Heh.
    I have only pied one person here but it was mainly for my personal amusement. I always read what they said, after reading the pie message, but it helped me refrain from responding.

    True story, my sister’s ex worked as an extra on Pushing Daisies, eating pie in the pie shop.

  210. 210

    @opiejeanne: I knew Ivanka was a useless peddler of knockoff garbage who was only notable because of her father and my opinion hasn’t changed. I knew the brothers were garbage because they’re big game hunters.

  211. 211
    opiejeanne says:

    @SFAW: I would have loved that. It’s similar to what we were yelling while it was happening.

  212. 212
  213. 213
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @opiejeanne: So you will eventually read this comment?

  214. 214
    opiejeanne says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Giraffes. Who hunts giraffes? For God’s sake, it’s like hunting a cow.

  215. 215
    Jeffro says:

    Jesus … The Atlanta Falcons have shown up once again without their defense … guys this is no way to win games

  216. 216
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @opiejeanne: at that point but it’s obvious now that Ivanka is an opportunist, and worse.

    a cheap grifter suffering from the same damage as her brothers. I do wonder sometimes if she picked Jared because she was smarter than the Fredos and figured out daddy’s fortune was a house of cards– and I’d bet a thousand quatloos that the Kushner Group or whatever it’s called is in some serious shit now

  217. 217

    @opiejeanne: the sort of person who tortured small animals as a kid.

  218. 218
    opiejeanne says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Did someone say something about pie?

    It’s not you. I haven’t seen that person in more than a week now and they were just a very negative irritant, not trollish.

  219. 219

    @opiejeanne: is it TP? Whatever happened to him

  220. 220
  221. 221
  222. 222
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @Suzanne: I also think that her answer didn’t affect the election results one little bit. She gave a reasonably decent (gracious) response to a stupid question. A more strongly worded answer – e.g., HE’S A CREEP WITH NO REDEEMING QUALITIES WHATSOEVER – would not have changed the outcome.

    Stupid voters voted stupidly (plus Comey, Russia, voter suppression etc. etc.). And here we are.

  223. 223
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Rightio then, I was trying to think of a two word ‘nym for TP and coming up blank.

  224. 224

    @Omnes Omnibus: fun fact, he’s literally why I wrote the pie filter integration.

  225. 225
    Tazj says:

    @Ruckus: From what I saw on Maddow’s show on Friday the man who is in charge of the Refugee Resettlement Office, Scott Lloyd, is an anti-abortion activist with no experience or background in working with refugees. The court gave the government something like 10 days to find someone suitable to take this young woman to see the doctor, since of course they won’t, and time is of the essence. Here’s an article about Scott Lloyd.

  226. 226
    Thru the Looking Glass... says:

    @Baud: I’m in agreement w/ those who said they couldn’t find a single redeeming quality in Trump… yes, he knows how to draw attention to himself… but it could hardly be called GOOD attention…

  227. 227
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Interesting.

  228. 228

    @Kay:
    I don’t see the Kelly thing as any change, other than confirming one specific person’s assholery. “How dare you question us, you “ has been not Only the Trump team’s go-to, but all of the GOP’s, for a long time. It’s how abusers handle getting caught.

  229. 229
    Kay says:

    ‘There’s no chance of that, but thank you for asking,” says @SenSherrodBrown

    That’s okay though because now I’ve decided Al Franken is perfect v Trump. This is a good idea!

    You guys will come to see that, with time :)

  230. 230
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    this morning

    Will Saletan‏Verified account @ saletan
    MTP, on Trump’s failure to implement congressional sanctions: “They have a blind spot on Russia I still can’t figure out.”

    news this evening

    Patrick Chovanec‏ @ prchovanec
    Trump Admin has revoked US visa for top Putin critic and driving force behind Magnitsky Act sanctions

  231. 231
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    It’s how abusers handle getting caught.

    Yes. They turn the tables and accuse the abused. SOP.

  232. 232
    opiejeanne says:

    @Major Major Major Major: you’re on fire.

  233. 233
    Kay says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    I think that’s the difference- that it isn’t one specific person- it’s all of them, as a team. The mean spirited nastiness lacked focus before.

  234. 234
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Matthew Yglesias‏Verified account @ mattyglesias 14h14 hours ago
    I don’t think it’s necessary for journalists to play dumb about this. Trump sought, and received, Russian assistance in 2016.

  235. 235
    Gravenstone says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I believe he’s been vacationing in Japan. May still be the case.

  236. 236
    Suzanne says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Last year, I was in the shoe department of Nordstrom, buying black flats for work. The salesman brought me the shoes I requested, and he brought me some others that he thought I might like. (They were all totally serviceable black flats.) I grabbed one of the pairs to try the, on, then saw that they were from the Ivanka Trump line. I handed them right back without trying them on and told him that I absolutely wouldn’t be buying anything from that line. He immediately took them away without a word, and it felt like that kind of thing had happened before.

    I was actually in the same shoe department on Friday (I needed shoes for a formal event I’m attending next Saturday), and I didn’t see any Ivanka Trump stuff. Yay.

    ETA: I ended up buying some black flats by Toms that I love, and I found a pair of shoes for the charity ball at DSW that are not amazing—but they also are remarkably comfortable for that kind of shoe. So win.

  237. 237
    GregB says:

    @burnspbesq:

    That means every lawyer in Trump’s orbit will jump on this opportunity.

  238. 238
    Gravenstone says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Gonna suggest that ‘blind spot’ is financial leverage, aka blackmail.

  239. 239
    Mnemosyne says:

    @opiejeanne:

    Tip: he’s a secret fan of romance novels. You can sometimes derail him by taking about books and authors instead.

  240. 240
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Gravenstone: I’m partial to evidence of using real estate, from condos to that gross metastasized Mc Mansion in FL that the Russian cement tycoon bailed him out on, to launder money for Russians, his cut being what keeps him afloat and his debts serviced (along with TV money). But IANAL and I don’t know what the laws are, how hard it would be to convict. And I can’t conceive of what it would take for Paul Ryan to approve a hearing, much less articles of impeachment.

  241. 241
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    MTP, on Trump’s failure to implement congressional sanctions: “They have a blind spot on Russia I still can’t figure out.”

    Note to self: I need to make a GIF of that moment in the MST3K version of Santa Claus where the devil slaps his forehead and the ‘bots say, “Geez, I gotta spoon-feed you little brats!”

    It will come in handy for so many situations right now.

  242. 242
    opiejeanne says:

    @Mnemosyne: I’m not a fan of those but I do happen to know (slightly) a very successful writer of that genre. I read two of her books and they were well-written. I read one by McCaffrey that annoyed the shit out of me, it was so formula and so “the wife must obey her husband even though he’s a total jerk”.
    I read one by Evanovich that was so ridiculous I laughed most of the way through.

  243. 243
    catclub says:

    @sharl: I wish she had said he is fantastically good at getting the media to televise his empty podium at his rallies.

  244. 244
    debbie says:

    @burnspbesq:

    Like he’d ever actually pay them!

  245. 245
    catclub says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I thought Browder was a US citizen. Revoked what visa? I very much doubt it is a visa to Russia.

    I am confused.

  246. 246
    Mnemosyne says:

    @opiejeanne:

    If the author you know is Jayne Ann Krentz, TP will lose his shit. That’s his favorite author.

    Romance is like any other genre, as explained by sci-fi author Theodore Sturgeon — 90 percent of anything is crap.

    I liked McCaffrey’s Dragonriders books up to a point, but while she was progressive for the 1970s, a lot of it has aged badly. Never read Evanovich — I think she’s a mystery writer?

  247. 247
    eclare says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I was wondering about him too recently

  248. 248
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @eclare: Why?

  249. 249
    Corner Stone says:

    @catclub: “He seems to be very good at walking into the dressing rooms of underage beauty pageant contestants.”

  250. 250
    Tenar Arha says:

    @No Drought No More: Late, but the slap incident, that was DonJr.

  251. 251
    Another Scott says:

    @catclub: :-) Excellent.

    Trouble is, I think the question was from a “real voter” in the audience, so that might not have gone over well. As with many, many things in the 2016 campaign, she would have gotten huge pushback from someone no matter what she said.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  252. 252
    tobie says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Browder himself has confirmed this on his twitter account. The US stripped him of his visa at the same time as Russia succeeded in putting him on Interpol’s wanted list. The Kremlin is accusing him of killing his lawyer Magnitsky, who died after being brutally beaten in a Russian prison, presumably at Putin’s request. This would be laughable, were it not so frightening.

    ETA: Browder became a British citizen and gave up his US citizenship, which is why he needs a visa to enter the US. The State Dept apparently issues visas, so the question is whether State is doing Putin’s bidding or the White House has ordered the department to do Putin’s bidding.

  253. 253
    opiejeanne says:

    @Mnemosyne: Yes, Janet Evanovich wrote “One For the Money” which had both of us laughing hysterically, but the movie is an excrescence. The casting is all wrong, just so damned awful.
    Evanovich started as a Romance novelist. The Stephanie Plum books are funny, sometimes really scary, and the main character’s hamster must be the oldest living hamster on record because he’s in every book. After a while, though, the jokes get a little old and there aren’t enough new ones to bother reading past the fourth or fifth book. I think she’s on 21 now.

    The author I know writes under the names Jackie (Jacqueline) Diamond/Jade/Topaz; possibly more. I met her at my HS 20th reunion. She’s married to one of my classmates who happened to sit down at our table and the conversation was fun. I’m embarrassed to admit I don’t remember what he said he was doing then because she and I spent so much time talking. He was always quiet in school, not much had changed.

  254. 254
    opiejeanne says:

    @tobie: Geez! That’s terrible and very frightening.

  255. 255
    sm*t cl*de says:

    @tobie:

    The US stripped him of his visa at the same time as Russia succeeded in putting him on Interpol’s wanted list.

    Countries that followed Browther’s urging and adopted a fuck-you-Putin Magnitsky Law:
    1. US.
    2. UK.
    3. Estonia.
    4. Canada.
    Estonians collectively have NFLTG.

  256. 256
    Tenar Arha says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    What is Trump gonna do to me? I’m natural born American citizen. He may an authoritarian asshole, but the system still has some limits on him. He can’t just have people who don’t like killed.

    I get that you’re pointing out that we shouldn’t worry excessively. Here’s the thing, you might avoid being hurt by this Administration’s actions and continuing erosion of all norms of Constitutional governance, but there’s a list of groups they’re targeting and it’s not small or short.

    1. You have friends or relatives who are activists or reporters or academics?
    2. You have friends or relatives who are brown or black or first generation immigrants?
    3. You have friends or relatives who are disabled?
    4. You have friends or relatives who are in Medicaid in a nursing home?
    5. You have friends or relatives who are LGBTQ?
    6. You have friends or relatives who are Jewish?
    7. You have friends or relatives who aren’t white bread Protestant Christians?
    8. You have friends or relatives who are women?

    Anyway, this is why I don’t feel like the fiercest criticism is unfair or unfounded. Those signatures on those executive orders have resulted in deaths. The guy’s a killer with his pen.

    On top of the soldiers & sailors that have died on his watch, there are more than a few people who are dead because of this orange dotard. There are Puerto Ricans dying of leptospirosis right now, refugees dying because they were barred from entry here, organ and tissue donors whose visas were canceled, and this includes the people who committed suicide when this vile man was elected….

  257. 257
    Another Scott says:

    @tobie: Thanks for the info. What a nightmare for him and his family.

    An August story with more – if things go as back then, Interpol will reject the request again.

    Tillerson has a lot of explaining to do.

    Grrr…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  258. 258
    Gretchen says:

    @Brachiator: You’re right. I’ve been to the emergency room with injured kids, and the focus always includes “Did somebody do this deliberately?” To have his kid show up with a BROKEN LEG and it’s just one of those things is unconscionable.

  259. 259
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Tenar Arha: Goku was right. I don’t deny that people are put at risk by this administration. So fight back. Even if you only do shit on Facebook. Do shit.

  260. 260
    J R in WV says:

    @Balconesfault:

    Do you know what Cleek’s Pie Filter is? How it works? Almost certainly not. When someone is reliably stupid, and only posts comments full of crap, we here at Baloon Juice can add them to our Pie Filter.

    When someone’s nym is added to another Balloon Juice user’s pie filter, all comments by that nym or replies to that nym’s comments are somehow about Pie. Or Pi, sometimes.

    From now on, all your comments will be about Pie to me. Because that is how valuable your opinions and mistaken “fake facts” are to me. I imagine other Balloon Juicers will pie you today as well. Good bye, cruel Pie Maker!!!

  261. 261
    catclub says:

    @tobie: Thanks!

  262. 262
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @J R in WV: Someone disagreed with you and you just pushed that person into the “I ignore you” mode – how brave.

  263. 263
    Tenar Arha says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Oh, I’m doing stuff. But I know too much history not to have noticed that this guy as President has already caused deaths.

    ETA fixed double negative

  264. 264
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Tenar Arha: Okay. No more arguments from me.

  265. 265
    Ruckus says:

    Replying to Tazj at 225.
    First the reply button goes to the link, that’s not how it’s supposed to be.
    Anyway
    Yeah I figured the person in charge would have not one fucking clue, be the wrong person for the job for all the wrong reasons and a massive fuck up. Is there anyone who drumpf has selected that doesn’t meet that criteria? No? Yeah I didn’t think so.
    drumpf is a massive fucking idiot and will continue to do massively fucking stupid things every day he holds the office. He is incapable of any better. If he had to play a game where he did one good thing and got to keep every dime he has or not do it and lose every dime, he’d go for the good thing and fuck it up, by doing the exact opposite.

  266. 266
    J R in WV says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Will Saletan‏Verified account @ saletan
    MTP, on Trump’s failure to implement congressional sanctions:
    “They have a blind spot on Russia I still can’t figure out.”

    Oh, My, that is complicated. Let me see if I can explain it in words of one or two syllables.

    Putin and his rich comrades own Trump from his little toes to his funny hair. Trump has been trading dirty Russian money for years, they can prove it, it is illegal. He is owned by the Russian mobs. They want an end to sanctions ASAP. Can you understand this, or is it still too complicated for you?

    There went a 3 and a 4 syllable word, oops! Sorry!

    ETA: I’m speaking to Saletan and MTP, of course, Not you Jim.

  267. 267
    J R in WV says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    NO, not at all! Someone said something with which I disagree, which I could barely understand, someone whom I have never seen here before. If they post valuable news or opinion I may remove them from my pie filter, because I am mostly just playing with it. Some folks I never untwist their pie sayings, others I usually do.

    Why do you care? If I had just done it instead of making a joke about it you would never know.

  268. 268
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @J R in WV: I don’t particularly care. But that commenter has been around for a long time. I saw the pieing as a way of simply disagreeing with someone. Which I see as intellectual cowardice.

    If I was wrong, I apologize.

  269. 269
    Uncle Ebeneezer says:

    @opiejeanne: I help run an Indivisible in my area. There are definitely Wilmer-ites who show up and sometimes cause irritation, but at least with our group, most of them get bored by the local approach and rule #1.) no re-litigating the Primary, and consequently disappear after a meeting or two. Otherwise the ones that stick around tend to be the ones that understand the importance of coalition building, realistic expectations of influence (or lack there of) and are the ones I can agree-to-disagree with but still work with reasonably well. I don’t think they (the whole Wilmer-ites) are a big enough presence overall for you to not check out your local Indivisible. I’m sure there’s variance depending on the group, but so far my experience (with several Indivisibles in my region) tells me you should give it a shot.

  270. 270
    Uncle Ebeneezer says:

    @Another Scott: THIS. Depends on the group. With 6,000+ groups there are probably several in your area. Each one will be different but you can probably find one that is a good fit for you (Opie.)

  271. 271
    gocart mozart says:

    @catclub:
    Browder is an English citizen now, they revoked his visa to come to the U.S.

Comments are closed.