She’s flesh and blood, just like a man

It’s probably a mistake to wade into this one, but it really bugs me when men hear about sexual harassment charges and say “of course I’m against that stuff, I have a wife and a daughter”. It sounds to me like they’re saying there’s no way anyway they could understand or be offended by this kind of thing unless they had a wife or a daughter. The thing is, the kind of harassment Weinstein was doing isn’t that much about sex, it’s about power and humiliation. No matter if you’re a man or a woman, you can be steamrolled and humiliated by people who get off on abusing their power. A specific type of harassment is much more likely to happen to women. But it happened to Terry Crews too, and it shouldn’t be that hard for a man to put himself in the shoes of a woman who is being abused in this way. You shouldn’t have to have a daughter to have an ounce of empathy about this.

It’s the same thing with “I have a black friend so…”. Look, everyone shits their pants when they get pulled over by the cops. Now, imagine that you’re getting pulled over ten times as often and that every time you get pulled over instead of thinking “oh, shit, points on my license” you thought “oh, shit, I’m going to get shot”. How hard is it to understand and empathize with that? It shouldn’t be that difficult. You shouldn’t have to have black friends to understand that it’s problematic.

Women aren’t some being totally alien from men whose experiences are so out there that they can’t be understood at all by men. And that’s what “I have a daughter” means, it means that you can’t understand yourself but you’d be pissed if it happens to your daughter because you want to defend her.

112 replies
  1. 1
    Corner Stone says:

    I can say this as an aside. I am never watching another second of airtime or online video that has Anthony Bourdain attached.

  2. 2
    Mike J says:

    You shouldn’t need personal involvement to feel empathy,but it certainly helps open the eyes of the unempathetic.

  3. 3
    oldster says:

    But isn’t this simply one of the defining characteristics of Republicans?
    They think insurance is for weaklings and losers–until one of their own gets sick.
    They want to prohibit all abortions–except for when they need one themselves.

    Etc. etc.

    Total lack of empathy.

  4. 4

    You gotta be a do-right, all white man.

  5. 5
    Hunter Gathers says:

    My gender is useless at best, genocidal at worst.

    We should be replaced.

  6. 6
    Doug! says:

    @Corner Stone:

    What did he do? He’s started to annoy me as well.

  7. 7
    Raoul says:

    it’s about power and humiliation

    Yes. And a lot of these men who say they are against what Trump did (or that Hollywood turd, etc), are not opposed to wielding undue power, or using non-sexual humiliation to push themselves past those they see as competitors (or ‘inferiors’).

    (Makes me think of Power, Corruption and Lies by New Order, for whatever reason)

  8. 8
    Brachiator says:

    It’s probably a mistake to wade into this one, but it really bugs me when men hear about sexual harassment charges and say “of course I’m against that stuff, I have a wife and a daughter”. It sounds to me like they’re saying there’s no way anyway they could understand or be offended by this kind of thing unless they had a wife or a daughter.

    I don’t know. It sounds to me as though they are simply trying to be empathetic. This Weinstein crap is ugly and painful. Why try to edit or channel the reaction of people who are trying to be on the side of good?

    The thing is, the kind of harassment Weinstein was doing isn’t that much about sex, it’s about power and humiliation.

    Yeah, it’s about sex. I never understand why people want to deny it. Some people get an extra sexual kick out of the kind of thing that Harvey was doing. Hell, there may be even be a similar compulsion to Anthony Weiner having a compulsive need to send out dick picks and Weinstein’s weird thing to try to force women to watch him pleasure himself if he could not get them to have sex with him. It’s not like he was trying to force them to watch him eat a cheeseburger.

  9. 9
    Juju says:

    @Corner Stone: I don’t pay all that much attention to Anthony Bourdain. What did he do? Also autocorrect wanted to change Bourdain to Boursin. I love that cheese.

  10. 10
    Kay says:

    I can forgive people this one. I don’t believe they’re thinking it thru to that extent- they’re making a personal connection because they think they need one to weigh in – that it makes them credible. To me it seems more like that “stating their authority” thing people do- I can speak to this because of this. They’re just bad at ….talking :)

  11. 11
    Capri says:

    What always gets me is how many people know about this stuff and are complicit. Why do institutions (the Catholic church, Penn State, Mirimax, on and on) close ranks to protect powerful abusers? It’s a universal response to situations like this, at least initially.

  12. 12
    Corner Stone says:

    @Doug!: He went on a multi-tweet assault basically trashing Hillary Clinton for her reaction to the whole Harvey Weinstein shit. He is now being written up in multiple sources and venues as “trashing” Hillary on this which has unleashed all the anti-HRC trolls who get to blame her and also go after Bill and their marriage. It is disgusting.
    AB got dragged when he tried it on twitter but that did not stop him from posting six or so of the same bullshit tweets against HRC. Now it’s in the ether for all time.
    What’s odd, beyond all the things he *has* to know after being a celebrity chef for decades – that he isn’t spilling about, is that his significant other Asia Argento has been saying this stuff about HW for a couple decades and you never heard a fucking peep from AB after they got together.

  13. 13
    Doug! says:

    @Corner Stone:

    What a piece of shit.

  14. 14
    Betty Cracker says:

    You raise a good point about men also being subject to sexual harassment. Maybe part of the urge to put it into the wife-daughter-sister context is to reassure themselves that THEY aren’t vulnerable, to reinforce their roles as “protectors.” I don’t know.

    Anyhoo, this is hilarious:

  15. 15


    Yeah, it’s about sex. I never understand why people want to deny it.

    Well, it’s about both. If it wasn’t about both they would be abusing people some other way or not abusing people at all.

    @oldster: against gay marriage until a child comes out of the closet…

  16. 16
    gene108 says:

    The thing is, the kind of harassment Weinstein was doing isn’t that much about sex, it’s about power and humiliation.

    I think for a certain group of men sex is about power over your partner, whether he/she is willing or unwilling. It won’t be intimate for the other person, but that is not really the aggressor’s concern.

    How hard it is to understand and empathize with that? It shouldn’t be that difficult.

    Putting yourself in someone else’s shoes is one of the hardest things there is to do as a human being. Our default setting is to think, “what would I do in that situation”, and if you think you won’t have a problem that someone else has you may look down on that person.

    The fact more and more people are letting others tell their stories and not questioning it, such as the rise and support of Black Lives Matter by a sizable portion of non-blacks or the current highlighting of sexual harasssment or the growing acceptance of transgender people is what is remarkable to me.

  17. 17
    Baud says:

    @Corner Stone: I never watched him so I can’t boycott him.

    Anyone who makes this about Hillary is about as serious a person as Susan Sarandon.

  18. 18
  19. 19
    Marcelo Teson says:

    On the one hand, yes. You shouldn’t need a daughter/mother in your life to empathize with women. Be a human.

    However, we also know that people didn’t get on board with gay marriage and LGBT issues until someone they loved in their family/friend circles was affected. The more gay people were out and proud and normalized, the more people supported them being happy. Having a personal connection to an issue does reliably serve as a gateway to support their causes.

    So while it’s not ideal, I think it’s a start and an invitation to transition from caring about these things because someone you love is affected to caring about these things because you’re a decent human being.

  20. 20
    Corner Stone says:

    @Baud: He’s making it about HW and all the enablers. But this is what his tweets against HRC have lead to:
    Anthony Bourdain Rips Hillary Clinton For ‘Shameful’ Response To Weinstein Scandal

    And that is a big fucking problem that his ignorant ass opened the door for. Fucking asshole.

  21. 21
    Baud says:

    WASF (Vox)

    Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) will deliver the opening-night speech for the first-ever convention of the Women’s March in Detroit in late October — and the announcement has set off yet another round of relitigating the Democratic presidential primary on Twitter.

    The Women’s March, which attracted hundreds of thousands of protesters the weekend of Donald Trump’s inauguration, has come to symbolize the resistance to Trump’s administration — but many feel that the Women’s Convention, happening October 27 through 29, should kick off with, well, a woman.

  22. 22
    encephalopath says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Bourdain’s history as a meat chauvinist indicates the kind of character which leads to his tweet attack on HRC.

    He has a hard time understanding any perspective or opinion that is not his own, a general failing among successful white men his age.

  23. 23
    randy khan says:

    While I’d like everyone to get these things without having to see it through lens of the impact on a relative or friend, in all honesty I’m perfectly willing to accept support on sexual harassment, racism, etc., etc. from those who get there in whatever way works for them.

    As someone else noted above, empathy actually is not that easy, and often people need some specific connection to the particular wrong to get why it’s wrong. It would be better if we were wired to be empathetic in general, but we’re not.

  24. 24
    NoraLenderbee says:

    It sounds to me like they’re saying there’s no way anyway they could understand or be offended by this kind of thing unless they had a wife or a daughter.

    To me, it also sounds like “Having a wife/daughter means I hate the idea of them being sexually harassed, and that’s all there is to know about sexual harassment. I don’t need to think about why it happens or systemic social issues or solutions or anything else. So stop talking about those things.”

  25. 25
    A Ghost to Not says:

    @encephalopath: meat chauvinist?

  26. 26
    sukabi says:

    @Betty Cracker: yeah, Sam Bee’s psa should be part of EVERY hr’s sexual harassment training.

  27. 27
    Patricia Kayden says:

    The Mayor of San Juan’s tweet asking Americans to stand up against Trump letting Puerto Ricans die is heartbreaking. There are no words to express how awful Trump is — as a President and as a human being.

  28. 28
    Kay says:

    @randy khan:

    I don’t think it’s mean spirited. I think they don’t know what to say, so they reach for the closest connection as a way to get in. That to me seems like a good impulse.

  29. 29
    Baud says:

    @Corner Stone: Fool. Whether he knows it or not, he’s part of the same culture that elected Trump president.

  30. 30
    germy says:

    “I didn’t know about these things, but they don’t surprise me at all and they’re endemic to the system anyway. What I find sort of extraordinary is that this man is at the top of a very particular iceberg. I don’t think you can describe him as a sex addict; he’s a predator. But he’s, as it were, the top of the ladder of is a system of harassment, and belittling, and bullying, and interference, and what my mother would have referred to in the olden days as ’pestering. . .’ This has bene part of our world, women’s world, since time immemorial. So what we need to start talking about is the crisis in masculinity, the crisis of extreme masculinity, which is this sort of behavior, and the fact that it is not only O.K., but it is also represented by the most powerful man in the world at the moment.

    Emma Thompson

  31. 31
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I’m proud to say I’ve never watched a single second of his shows. He does not appeal to me in the slightest.

  32. 32
    MomSense says:

    The plural of anecdote is not anecdata. That having been said, I do not know a single woman who has not experienced some form of sexual harassment.

    I think this problem is far more common than we would like to acknowledge.

  33. 33
  34. 34
    debbie says:

    @Mike J:

    Conversely, if I were speaking to my youngest brother who voted for Trump, I’d have to ask him how he, a father of two daughters, could even think of voting for a pu$$y-grabber. I know him to be an empathetic human being, but I’m afraid I’d be hearing some bullshit line about overall priorities, etc. I’m afraid he’d have the audacity to tell me to my face that tax cuts were his top priority, and he’d refuse to respond at my response that that meant his daughters were less important than his god-damn money.

  35. 35
    sukabi says:

    @Corner Stone: I’m betting it’s only a matter of time before someone airs some of his dirty laundry. His whole Clinton blaming has a bit of “he doth protest too much” stank about it.

  36. 36
    Baud says:

    @MomSense: Is it anecdotes or anecdoti?

  37. 37

    @Baud: I’m trying to imagine a parallel, like having the keynote speaker at an LGBT rights symposium be some straight dude who’d never really done anything focused on helping gay people in his life, and… it just wouldn’t happen, no matter how famous he was.

  38. 38
    germy says:

    Matt Damon, in an interview with Deadline:

    “Look, even before I was famous, I didn’t abide this kind of behavior. But now, as the father of four daughters, this is the kind of sexual predation that keeps me up at night. This is the great fear for all of us . . . I did five or six movies with Harvey. I never saw this. I think a lot of actors have come out and said, everybody’s saying we all knew. That’s not true.”

  39. 39
    gene108 says:

    Nation’s Women Clarify They Harbor No Secret Desire To See Colleagues’, Acquaintances’, Strangers’ Genitals

    ‘If There Were Any Lingering Doubts, Rest Assured We Do Not Need Them Shown To Us’

    WASHINGTON—Explaining that anyone with any lingering doubts could rest assured that the answer was an unequivocal “no,” women across the nation on Thursday clarified that they harbor no secret desire to see any of their colleagues’, acquaintances’, or complete strangers’ genitals. “We would like to state this as unambiguously as possible to anyone who might still be confused on this matter: We have never and will never want you to show us your sexual organs,” read a joint statement by the nation’s 125 million women,

  40. 40
    Baud says:

    @germy: I’m sure Anthony Bourdain will call him a liar any second now.

  41. 41
    debbie says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Many rapists have little or no orgasms when they’re raping, so it is in fact actually about power. Sex is a method of humiliation, which many rapists also find satisfying.

    Power, rage, humiliation, yes. Sex, no.

  42. 42
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Baud: Emily’s List has waded into the fray:

    The WM people need to admit they made a mistake, change the line-up and move on.

  43. 43
  44. 44
    debbie says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I’m shocked, shocked that AB is a hypocrite.

  45. 45
  46. 46
    debbie says:


    Someone the other day said that while Dems will eventually turn against predators, Republicans elect them to national office. I’m sticking with that.

  47. 47

    @debbie: we aren’t talking about rape, unless I missed something in the Weinstein allegations.

  48. 48
    Baud says:

    @Major Major Major Major: He has been accused of rape.

  49. 49
    Starfish says:

    James van der Beek has also said he was abused in this way.

  50. 50
    gene108 says:


    If a guy ejaculates, he has had an orgasm. Period.

  51. 51
    MomSense says:


    Fuck that shit. I sent an email to them today with my objections.

  52. 52
    Baud says:

    @Betty Cracker: Seems unlikely, but the March was excellent, so I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt.

  53. 53
    debbie says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    There have been rape accusations in addition to the bullying, etc.

    On a happier note, I got in contact with my friend who had been his assistant back in his early days. Happily, Harvey wasn’t feeling his power enough to bully her for sex. He was just a regular, all around jerk and pig.

  54. 54
    Baud says:

    @debbie: I like it too.

  55. 55
    Corner Stone says:

    @Betty Cracker: Agreed. Until they do I would enjoy it if people like Cecile Richards and other prominent women stand up and say WTF?

  56. 56
    debbie says:


    And often it doesn’t get to that point.

  57. 57
    Baud says:

    @debbie: Glad you don’t have to fly to Europe.

  58. 58
  59. 59
    Chyron HR says:

    Excuse me, maybe you guys aren’t aware, but before the junior Senator from Vermont was the leader of the civil rights movement, he was also the leader of the suffragette movement. Maybe you should educate yourselves before you spout off against the greatest man in history.

  60. 60
    Davebo says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Well she also tried to use the alleged assault on her as leverage to get a film deal.

    That’s some sick shit right there IMO. She may have talked about it but she certainly never came out public to claim he raped her until the NYT revelation.

    There can be many reasons for that and perfectly reasonable ones but Bourdain is a prick.

  61. 61
    Kay says:


    All women do have one. Mine was at an IHOP when I was in high school. It’s hard to put yourself back in a place before you knew things, but I didn’t think of it in larger terms. I thought “this gross old man is bothering me”. I left in the middle of a shift because it’s an IHOP job, who gives a shit, not worth whatever this is, and the only regret I had was I left my jacket, which I loved and wanted back. Not a profile in courage but it just never occurred to me that there was some larger context that I was supposed to be thinking about.

  62. 62
    debbie says:


    Ha! Me too. I’m still one handed. TSA would have been unamused.

  63. 63
    Corner Stone says:

    @gene108: I don’t understand your response?

  64. 64
    Davebo says:

    @Patricia Kayden: What does that have to do with hate speech in Canada?

  65. 65
    Corner Stone says:

    @Davebo: I am sceptical of any claims or stories against people making charges or allegations against HW at this point.

  66. 66

    Given that in the same sentence he also talked about getting to rip people’s tongues out, I’m going to guess this was a very badly put ‘I enjoy that I get to pretend I’m a horrible villain’.

    EDIT – There is a separate but very real argument about how the show itself treats rape, however.

  67. 67
    Davebo says:

    @Corner Stone: These aren’t claims or stories. She admits it. And she directed at least 1 film for Miramax afterwards. She also admits to continue to have consensual sex with him after the incident but again, has a plausible explanation.

  68. 68
    MomSense says:


    You are too clever, Baud.


    I had a terrible experience with my algebra teacher 1st period, 1st day of high school. It got worse to the point where other students noticed. Their brilliant response was to tease me about it.

  69. 69
    germy says:

    @Corner Stone: Washington Post reporter said that while she was preparing a recent story, she got info from someone in Weinstein’s camp; some bad, gossipy stuff about an accuser.

    So even while he’s pleading for mercy, his defamation machine is still up and running.

  70. 70
    trnc says:

    You shouldn’t have to have a daughter to have an ounce of empathy about this.

    DT has two daughters, and he obviously doesn’t give a crap. I totally agree that dudes shouldn’t need a woman around to understand the crap they go through, but if every guy who has a daughter or wife understood, we’d be a lot better off.

  71. 71
    Starfish says:

    Was I the only one who read Bourdain’s book?

    While her new groom and family chawed happily on their flounder fillets and deep-fried scallops just a few yards away in the Dreadnaught dining room, here was the blushing bride, getting an impromptu send-off from a total stranger.

    And I knew then, dear reader, for the first time: I wanted to be a chef.

  72. 72
    Corner Stone says:

    @Davebo: “What complicates the story, Argento readily allowed, is that she eventually yielded to Weinstein’s further advances and even grew close to him. Weinstein dined with her, and introduced her to his mother. Argento told me, “He made it sound like he was my friend and he really appreciated me.” She said that she had consensual sexual relations with him multiple times over the course of the next five years, though she described the encounters as one-sided and “onanistic.” The first occasion, several months after the alleged assault, came before the release of “B. Monkey.” “I felt I had to,” she said. “Because I had the movie coming out and I didn’t want to anger him.” She believed that Weinstein would ruin her career if she didn’t comply.”

  73. 73
    Corner Stone says:

    That’s not really a “plausible explanation”, IMO.

  74. 74
    Kay says:


    Their brilliant response was to tease me about it.

    That’s terrible. That’s an actual authority figure, too, a teacher- real power- where I didn’t accept the IHOP owner as an actual authority figure because I didn’t care about the job or what he thought of me. When people say “why didn’t you say anything?” I think they don’t understand the individual nature of it- how it feels personal. You don’t have this kind of global sense that there’s a sisterhood or something. You’re just living your life and you put it in the “horrible and unique to me experience” category. The best Weinstein account I read was where the victim was 17 (now an adult) because she really portrayed how you don’t know where to put it. It’s like “WTF is THIS new horror?”

  75. 75
    germy says:

    off topic, but I’ve been enjoying Austin Rogers performance on Jeopardy.

    Last night, Trebek (during the brief “conversation with the contestants” segment) asked him about his choice of wardrobe. Rogers admitted he buys all his clothes at thrift stores. He said people give away all sorts of great things in the upper east side. Except healthcare.

    Laughter and applause from the audience. Trebek smiled and backed away.

  76. 76
    Comrade Colette Collaboratrice says:

    @Corner Stone:


    Since you have never been and will never be a vulnerable, much younger woman with everything to lose in a situation of almost indescribable power differential, you may wish to reconsider the value (and validity) of your opinion.

  77. 77
    MomSense says:


    It’s a nightmare when it is an authority figure, boss, doctor, etc. In my case this teacher was also the assistant principal and a popular coach. Made me think that I was not his first target. The other thing that was really upsetting was that it was suggested (by my guidance counselor!) that I switch to a different math class – which meant I would have dropped down to a lower math class. I was in the advanced, college track classes.

  78. 78
    Corner Stone says:

    @Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: Try re-reading. Thanks

  79. 79
    germy says:

    Quiara Alegría Hudes, co-author with Lin-Manuel Miranda of the musical In the Heights, which is currently being developed for film with the Weinstein Company, no longer wants to work with the studio after numerous women came forward to accuse Harvey Weinstein of sexual harassment and rape.

    “I hope the Weinstein Company has enough grace, in the wake of these revelations, to respect my stand as a woman, and to allow us to extricate In the Heights from them,” she said on Twitter. “In the Heights deserves a fresh start in a studio where I’ll feel safe (as will my actors and collaborators).”

  80. 80
    Comrade Colette Collaboratrice says:

    @Corner Stone: You appear to say that Argento’s explanation is not plausible. If that’s not what you meant, try explaining.

  81. 81
    Corner Stone says:

    I’m going to give this a few minutes.

  82. 82
    Trentrunner says:

    @debbie: This is wrong. It’s a comforting lefty fantasy that rape is “not about sex, but about power,” but it is a fantasy. Saying that men don’t ejaculate when they rape means it’s not about sex is…an interesting definition of “not about sex.” (Also like to see some credible evidence for that claim.)

    Pretty sure forcing an erect penis into an unwilling vagina has at least SOMETHING to do with sex.

  83. 83
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Corner Stone: Sorry to hear that since I’ve always liked Anthony. He always struck me as a cool guy. Huge sigh.

    P.S. I still don’t get why Secretary Clinton is expected to speak out against Harvey Weinstein. She was a presidential candidate and a secretary of state. Why is she the big target in all of this? To be honest, I don’t understand how she deals with all the hate. I feel sad for her.

  84. 84
    Sab says:

    @debbie: Glad to hear that.

  85. 85
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @germy: He appears to be unbeatable. It’s going to be fun to see how many games he wins and how much money he amasses at the end of his run. He’ll probably beat Ken Jennings’ record by the time he’s finished. He must be a hell of a bartender.

  86. 86
    Corner Stone says:

    @Patricia Kayden: It never mattered what she said, how forcefully she said, when she said or what actions she took. None of it was ever going to be “right”.
    That’s what we should all know by now.

  87. 87
    Baud says:

    @Patricia Kayden: I feel the same way. It’s why I hate the haters twice as hard.

  88. 88
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @oldster: They’re anti-gay until their son comes out as gay. Looking at you, Senator Rob Portman.

  89. 89
    Lynn Dee says:

    @Mike J:

    I agree. But also: I find it eye-opening in a useful, helpful kind of way when men acknowledge they didn’t “get” it until they had daughters. It says a lot about how we’re raised. How all of us are raised.

    My dad looked and really was a Lou Grant kind of guy. Gruff, funny, upstanding, principled, grinned a lot. He also, on occasion, showed something of a sadistic streak to us kids — the bone-crushing handshake, the baseball thrown a little too hard, and so on. Stuff I hated but also dismissed as “dad stuff.” Until I had kids of my own, that is, and discovered I could no sooner do something like that than I could’ve kicked the dog. I still have a hard time calling what my dad did sadistic — but when the kids were little and we went home to visit, I watched my dad like a hawk. (“No, dad, you can’t throw the ball that hard; he’s too little.”)

    Sometimes it takes seeing the world through the eyes of your children to discover things you’ve long been defended against.

  90. 90
    Patricia Kayden says:

    On a high note, the Queen of England has refused to meet with Trump. I guess she’s not amused by his admitted p*ssy grabbing. I expect the anti-Trump protests to be massive when he visits the UK. Huuuge!!

  91. 91
    ruemara says:

    @sukabi: Based on the profession, you’re probably right. He also has the cool guy/bad boy swagger, which usually means dickheaded bastard with regard to women.

    @Corner Stone: I had no idea he was with Asia Argento. I ripped him about his tweets and I’m sorry I was so fucking gentle now.

  92. 92
    debbie says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Yuuuuuge! if she holds firm to that. I wouldn’t put it past Theresa May to try and change her mind.

  93. 93
    mouse tolliver says:

    @Baud: Boudain already dragged Matt Damon because the guy he vouched for in that aborted NYT article (Fabrizio Lombardo) is the one who tricked Asia Argento into the private meeting where she was assaulted by HW.

    I have a hard time believing Damon would defend someone without knowing why they were in trouble. His Deadline interview doesn’t pass the smell test. The whole “hear no evil, see no evil” angle is pretty sickening.

  94. 94
    Lyrebird says:

    @Marcelo Teson: To me it’s even more than that, and very different than “but I have a [fillintheblank] friend.” I know this thread’s been done for a while, but here I go –

    Hearing my dad say this
    and MEAN IT
    means a lot.

    Gives one hope when bouncing back from bad treatment.

  95. 95
    Aardvark Cheeselog says:

    It’s probably a mistake to wade into this one,


    You shouldn’t have to have a daughter to have an ounce of empathy about this.

    And yet for many of your fellow beings, not in themselves evil or even particularly obnoxious, it makes a difference.

    This post stinks of patting yourself on the back for moral superiority. You should have paid attention to your instincts.

  96. 96
    Ruckus says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    And yet it a thread down below there is the story of the Woman’s March who are having BS as the keynote speaker, and using Maxine Waters lead as the theme. Humans do not always connect the dots. Lots of times they don’t even try. Sometimes they don’t even have the logic to make the lines to connect the dots. It’s like watching Joey on Friends connect on something that everyone else has gotten and is ready to move on. It’s a 2 watt bulb on a timer. Yes it finally comes on but it’s not shinning very strong when it does.

  97. 97
    Ruckus says:

    @Patricia Kayden:
    Think of the entire HRC attack as a power defense. Here is a more than capable woman, with some pretty heavy experience, who has played at the top of her chosen field. That offends a lot of men who’ve never had any opportunity and never will. “How could a mere woman get ahead of me?” They may not even understand that they feel this way, but they do. And they would even if she was their wife, maybe especially then. And women do this as well.
    It isn’t right nor even valid, mostly they just never even tried to go where she has.

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    mike in dc says:

    “As a sapient terrestrial organism of finite existential tenure, I experience transient empathetic impulses in response to accounts of traumatic incidents similar to and including this one in particular…”

  99. 99

    the kind of harassment Weinstein was doing isn’t that much about sex, it’s about power and humiliation.

    That’s true, but it’s also the sort of statement that used to stick at me.

    “It’s not about sex…” Why? Because if he wanted to get off, he had other avenues he could have pursued.
    “It’s about power…” – definitely true, but maybe not (as some people hear) about his *establishing* his power, showing off his power. It might be “Hey, you want to work in the industry, you have to play the game, and I’m telling you, your next move is to do what will make me feel good.” He might not get off on expressing his power per se – but he’s abusing the power he holds over people.

    “…and humiliation” – I haven’t heard *his* stories. So: maybe he does get off on humiliation (and if so, saying it’s about power fits in a direct way – humiliating someone is exerting power).

    But I’ve long believed that the root of evil isn’t malice – it’s indifference.

    Let’s pretend a person hates me – but still sees me as a human being. I’m safe – they won’t hurt or kill me.

    But let’s pretend the owner of a chemical manufacturing plant wants to dump toxic waste. They don’t want to poison *me* in particular – they just don’t care enough to make sure they don’t.

    And the same thing can happen here. Weinstein might never want to hurt or humiliate women for the sake of doing so. He just might not care enough to make sure he doesn’t.

    And there, you could say it’s about power and humiliation, *even if* he’s not trying to express power, *even if* he wouldn’t do it if he *knew* it would cause humiliation. He just doesn’t give enough of a flying frig at a rolling doughnut to worry about whether that might happen. And in some sense, that’s worse than malice. If someone feels malice, you can avoid them to be safe. But if someone just doesn’t care, you can’t know to avoid them… until you’re already trapped.

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    Kay Eye says:

    @Juju: Boursin is to France as Velveeta is to Texas.

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  102. 102
    MaryRC says:

    @Kay: Yes, this. I don’t see why we have to nitpick these peoples’ reactions like this. So they don’t use exactly the words that we want them to use. At least they’re trying.

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    Tenar Arha says:

    Late to this thread but…

    Why does the construction “as the father of daughters” fail to work anymore, even if it truly helps men better understand the dangers and fears women face? We heard it a great deal last fall, but it didn’t make a difference because it wasn’t followed by any actions to stop these problems. And though I expected little from the GOP, that doesn’t mean that they also didn’t wear out the construction for everyone else. And last but not least, now we have a sexual assaulter in the White House.

    So, saying the right thing means nothing, actually less than nothing, until and unless it’s converted into systemic change. Because the truth is, no matter what Matt Damon says, and even if he was assiduously kept in the dark like a mushroom, he ended up complicit in a system that could brutalize his daughters by helping to spike this story coming out in 2004. (I do hope he’s thinking long and hard about his role here. By doing that favor for his producer friend, he did contribute to the predator having ~13 more years to abuse women).

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    The blue one says:

    It’s not just Bourdain who has tried to make it about HRC, but a couple of NBC (!) reporters tried the same tack on Twitter. Of course they never questioned or said anything about NBC itself trying to kill and suppress the Weinstein story.

    Also, what has been reported about him makes him a serial rapist if true (and I personally don’t doubt it). I don’t think such a crime should require someone to have a family to appreciate its awfulness. I also think the Manhattan DA among others should lose his job over this.

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    the Conster says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    You realize they won’t, right? This was all a ploy to bait the trap then spring the fact that it’s Bernie Prom after you can’t get a refund.

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    J R in WV says:

    @Kay Eye:

    Ooh, nice. These haters, of women, of black equality, they make me sick.

  107. 107
    J R in WV says:

    @the Conster:

    What if most of the women who paid good money for admission decide that they don’t need to make a big effort, spend time and money, to see an old misogynist like Sanders? I wouldn’t cross the street to see him, and I”m not a woman being dissed by an organization calling themselves “The Women’s March” and asking a not very good man to be their keynote speaker.

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    the Conster says:

    @J R in WV:

    Yeah, there’s a lot of backpedaling going on. It’s been noted that the women who would be a threat to challenge Sanders in 2020 weren’t included. This is turning out to be a Their Revolution grift from the cult and from the clueless.

  109. 109
    LanceThruster says:

    @the Conster:

    Not true. Kamala Harris was invited. So was Elizabeth Warren. Hillary was said to be unable to attend.

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    KS in MA says:

    @Patricia Kayden: Good for her!

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    Antikate says:

    Long time lurker etc etc.
    The problem with the “I care about this because I have a wife and daughters” isn’t so much about the idea that men care more about people they know, it’s that wives and daughters have long been considered the property of men. It recasts the crime of rape or sexual abuse as a crime against the man who has a proprietary interest in his wife and daughters.
    And yes, as a woman, I do care that people view assaults to my person as an assault *to me* vs as an assault to the man I’m married to, or my father. It doesn’t bother me that men, or anyone, finds personal connection illuminating. It bothers me when women’s value is reduced to their relationship to men.

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    LanceThruster says:

    This is rich, particularly in light of this quote by EMILY’s List.

    “This announcement sends the wrong message to women everywhere. We have reached out to the organizers of the Women’s Convention directly to share our surprise and disappointment, and to offer our help to strengthen the program. We have more women leaders in elected office than ever before, and they are forcibly leading the resistance against Trump and his allies in Congress who are intent on attacking women. EMILY’s List is proud to have supported many of those women every step of the way, and we know that there is a tidal wave of rising stars coming behind them. The choice of Senator Sanders sends the wrong message.”

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