You can’t make this shit up:
Here's a photo of Ty Cobb & John Dowd casually & loudly discussing details of Russia investigation at @BLTSteakDC while I sat at next table. pic.twitter.com/RfX9JLJ0Te
— Kenneth P. Vogel (@kenvogel) September 18, 2017
Mr. McGahn supports cooperation, but has expressed worry about setting a precedent that would weaken the White House long after Mr. Trump’s tenure is over. He is described as particularly concerned about whether the president will invoke executive or attorney-client privilege to limit how forthcoming Mr. McGahn could be if he himself is interviewed by the special counsel as requested.
The friction escalated in recent days after Mr. Cobb was overheard by a reporter for The New York Times discussing the dispute during a lunchtime conversation at a popular Washington steakhouse. Mr. Cobb was heard talking about a White House lawyer he deemed “a McGahn spy” and saying Mr. McGahn had “a couple documents locked in a safe” that he seemed to suggest he wanted access to. He also mentioned a colleague whom he blamed for “some of these earlier leaks,” and who he said “tried to push Jared out,” meaning Jared Kushner, the president’s son-in-law and senior adviser, who has been a previous source of dispute for the legal team.
After The Times contacted the White House about the situation, Mr. McGahn privately erupted at Mr. Cobb, according to people informed about the confrontation who asked not to be named describing internal matters. John F. Kelly, the White House chief of staff, sharply reprimanded Mr. Cobb for his indiscretion, the people said.
Obligatory:
SiubhanDuinne
It simply beggars belief that two such experienced D.C lawyers (Cobb is, anyhow) had this noisy conversation in a known media hangout by accident. I just don’t buy it. It’s a deke of some kind, they’re planting this story deliberately — for what specific reason I could not say — and somebody’s going to end up embarrassed over this. Yeah, I know they work for Trump and are thus, by definition, skeevy and sleazy and perhaps incompetent in some important ways — but not this way. It’s a rookie error, and these boys are hardly rookies.
Lapassionara
He hires all the best people!
randy khan
@SiubhanDuinne:
You can’t discount the possibility that it’s a deke, but:
(a) Trump’s legal team has done a lot of stupid things that potentially violate legal ethics rules as much as or worse than this.
(b) You’d be shocked how often lawyers talk about client stuff in public. My wife and I once were in a restaurant in New York, sitting next to a lawyer on a date, and (in an apparent effort to impress her, although maybe I’m wrong about that), he talked in such detail about a project he was working on that, if I’d been so inclined, I could have figured out the client and traded on the information he gave her without any trouble at all.
Roger Moore
@SiubhanDuinne:
This is about what I thought. I can’t believe these guys would make a mistake like that. It has to be some way of planting a story in the media.
sharl
IANAL, but found this interpretation plausible (as far as I know the tweeter is also not a lawyer):
ETA: SiubhanDuinne & Roger Moore done got there first…
aimai
What is a “deke”?
Major Major Major Major
Ella in New Mexico
@SiubhanDuinne: @sharl:
You two fine minds have absolutely summed this newsy item up 100%:
It was both a set up and a way to drop info safely at the nearest branch of the NYT work room… but it is safe to assume that what was overheard is most likely a whole bunch of shit mixed in with minor truths, just like good disinformation is always done.
Meanwhile, everyone please watch for the REAL news that’s going to hit the fan that they–and Trump with his nasty little “golf ball hitting Hillary Clinton” retweet– are desperately trying to distract you from noticing…
Now you two go take the day off and enjoy your well deserved reward. :-)
opiejeanne
@aimai: a fake-out. I think it’s a hockey term; used to denote a fake movement.
eric
@Ella in New Mexico: except for the risk that it can be construed as a waiver of the attorney-client privilege. So, too cute by half.
Kelly
This feels like I’m stuck on a long, long bus ride with a hopelessly incompetent driver who isn’t even headed to my destination.
Xantar
@opiejeanne:
If you do three of them in a row, then you’re a character from The Mighty Ducks.
No Drought No More
@SiubhanDuinne: What was it Deep throat told Bob Woodward about Nixon’s White House? “Forget what you hear about about those guys. The fact is they’re not all that smart”. Something like that.
Will Americans cut Trump Inc any slack if-and-when Mueller sees fit to indict the lot of them? Fuck no, they won’t. Not if Trump Inc. colluded with a foreign power, they won’t. Which means those people are looking at serious time behind bars. Which means they are all of them scared to death. I know that only because I would be if I was in their shit-stained shoes. And terrified people are prone to act that way- unpredictably, sometimes even recklessly. The bell is tolling their names and they can all hear it..
Roger Moore
@aimai:
It’s short for “decoy”. It’s used in sports to describe an attempt to fake an opponent out by pretending to do one thing when you’re actually going to do another. For example, a baseball fielder might fake being ready to take a throw to fool an opponent into sliding and stopping at third when he could make it safely to home if he continued to run.
Ella in New Mexico
@eric: doesn’t change anything. You DO know that in TrumpWorld, everything dumb, bad or illegal is actually smart, good and fully in compliance with all laws and moral expectations, right? ;-)
But what a cool idea-blabber in public about your client, break attorney-client privilege so you can flee the utter fuck-job representing him will be, yet remain in his good graces by disinforming the “Failing Mainstream Media and the NY Times Especially”?
Ruckus
@SiubhanDuinne:
I have met some really stupid lawyers. However, you’d have a far easier time convincing me that the tooth fairy is real than that this isn’t intentional.
And I think@Ella in New Mexico: is spot on. It is a head fake.
@Kelly: Reminds me of the Grateful Dead and Long Strange Trip It’s Been. But this trip is real, even though it seems more like a horrible acid flashback gone wrong.
Barbara
@SiubhanDuinne: It’s possible, certainly. Perhaps the “deke” they wanted to convey is that there is some kind of actual disagreement between the two when there is not. I don’t know. But Cobb is also the person who engaged in an extraordinarily undisciplined email exchange with, basically, a complete stranger. The problem I have with the notion that this is a deke is that it’s hard to control how these things are reported on and interpreted, and if they really get out of hand, they are going to risk adverse legal presumptions or even worse, loss of privilege, or motions to compel documents that were not turned over.
Major Major Major Major
@Roger Moore: OT, thanks for the comment on the house plans!
TenguPhule
This has to be some kind of setup.
They couldn’t possibly be this stupid.
Corner Stone
@SiubhanDuinne: This does seem too clever by half. However, a friend of mine did IT for a law firm and bartended some for extra cash. He had to tell two guys to please stop discussing XYZ because he worked at So & So law firm. They stopped for a minute but then continued again. To cover his butt he told the office manager the next day. Ended up having to sign an affidavit to the presiding judge about what had happened.
I have also been on more than one elevator with lawyers and consultants who just start blabbing the finer points of a deal they are in.
hueyplong
These guys have offices. Of course it is plant.
Ruckus
@TenguPhule:
We all keep saying this. What if it’s true and they really are?
Barbara
@Corner Stone: Yep, this happens pretty much all the time.
Felonius Monk
@Kelly:
You mean “I Think We’re All Bozos on This Bus“? (Gratuitous Firesign Theater reference.)
TenguPhule
@No Drought No More:
But we’d have to accept that they’re doing stuff so stupid that by all rights they never should have passed a bar exam. That’s how stupid it is.
Ruckus
@hueyplong:
They may think this is safer than their offices.
Roger Moore
@Ella in New Mexico:
It seems that everyone agrees this is too crazy to be an accident; it’s a deliberate attempt to get information to the media. The only question left is whether the information they’re tying to get out is correct or if they’re trying to spread disinformation.
TenguPhule
@Kelly:
And all he wants to talk about is the salad bar at Applebees.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule:
Trump’s razor.
sharl
OT – fyi/fwiw – I assume this isn’t irony; after all, he and Haberman have to work on their book:
Responses in that thread are very mixed. Here’s a positive one:
TenguPhule
@Roger Moore:
Crazy, insane, or stupid. With these bozos, six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Ruckus
@TenguPhule:
I’ve helped friends study for the bar. I’m not a lawyer nor have I ever gone to law school. I often knew more of the answers than they did.
TenguPhule
@Ruckus:
Then nothing really matters anymore.
Felonius Monk
It also could be a way for these two lawyers to communicate to their client some information that he won’t accept or listen to in person. But, if he reads about in the FNYFT, he will more likely believe it.
TenguPhule
@Ruckus: Yes, its a low bar threshold. ;P
trollhattan
@aimai: @opiejeanne:
Officially disappointed it’s not a young future duke.
Now, what’s “hockey”?
SatanicPanic
Seems possible they did this on purpose but that it’s a really dumb strategy. really who knows with this bunch. That lawyer looks about as stable as Trump’s kook doctor.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
But we’re getting into “how do these fuckers manage to use eating utensils unaided” territory at this point!
Ruckus
@Felonius Monk:
What you are saying is that the ship is furiously taking on water and they have only been able to convince their client that he’s taking a bath. Still in his suit, sitting in his office.
MattF
Yeah, it does beggar belief and defy common sense. So, what else is new?
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: A good (or bad) grasp of theory of mind doesn’t really imply anything about fine motor control.
TenguPhule
@trollhattan:
The Canadian version of polo.
Roger Moore
@TenguPhule:
And how he’s the greatest bus driver ever.
Another Scott
I just glanced at Donnie’s twitter thing. 38.6M followers. Obama still has 94.9M.
Sad!
Cheers,
Scott.
SiubhanDuinne
@aimai:
Short for “decoy.” A deliberately false move, designed to fake out your opponent. (I think it’s a sports term, but IANASF and may be using it inaccurately.)
SuzieC
What are the documents in the safe?
Corner Stone
Beyond the issue of “real or plant”, what if McGahn really does have “two documents” locked in a safe away from Mueller?
Mnemosyne
I’m in the group that thinks it’s very possible that these guys are just that dumb.
SatanicPanic
@Corner Stone: CS! Welcome back
HRA
This was definitely a rehearsed episode. Since this presidency began, something the mofo tweets or says ignorantly has to be covered with a version of news to overcome and overtake it.
Corner Stone
@trollhattan: Reminds me of the Simpson’s scene where Fat Tony says, “what’s a truck?”
/warning – cartoon mouse on cat violence
TenguPhule
@Corner Stone:
I suppose that would depend on what those documents are and how badly they want to keep them away from Mueller.
Another Scott
@Major Major Major Major: Yup.
I don’t think it was intentional. I think they’re so oblivious to everything except their own little world that it’s inconceivable that someone would notice them and listen in.
Remember Spicer’s tweets of his 2-factor authentication codes (or whatever it was)?
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Bobby Thomson
If you wanted everyone to think that you weren’t behind the withholding and/or destruction of documents, you might try something like this. Clumsy and easy to disprove, unless Mueller isn’t the intended audience.
MattF
@Another Scott: They are that dumb. They are not happy campers. Their clients are guilty as hell. They are getting paid to vent at members of Donald Trump’s entourage. They are being watched by the KGB and the New York Times.
Omnes Omnibus
@Roger Moore: I think it is quite likely that it was a straight forward conversation.
Ruckus
@TenguPhule:
Just because they are stupid beyond belief doesn’t mean the world will stop rotating for the rest of us. Don’t forget half the population is dumber than the median.
Major Major Major Major
@Ruckus: And that the median is, of course, an IQ of 100.
feebog
So the picture presumably taken by Ken Vogel puts him well within earshot of Dowd and Cobb, ever if they were speaking in normal conversation. These are two experienced, well known attorneys in Washington. What are the chances they would not recognize Ken Vogel? I would recognize Ken Vogel, just from his frequent appearances on MSNBC. I am not an attorney, but I have frequent contact with attorneys through my practice as a Labor Arbitrator and Civil Service Commission Hearing Officer. Yes, some attorneys are not particularly careful when conducting hallway discussions. But come on, an experienced attorney is not going to talk about what may arguably be the case of the century on the patio of a steakhouse. Not. going. to. happen.
Just One More Canuck
@TenguPhule:
TenguPhule: “They couldn’t possibly be this stupid”
Ty Cobb (!!): “Hold my beer”
Corner Stone
@feebog:
Every demonstrable example from these two, starting with the decision to be hired by Trump, has shown us they are not high quality actors. Late night email fights with strangers, telling news people they will never discuss this topic again, etc. They have been a rolling clown show the whole time.
Ruckus
@TenguPhule:
I’ve also seen students that could take a test and do well on say multiple choice but when asked a question stated from the opposite direction to the first premise were completely dumbstruck. They had studied the words but had no idea of the meaning. The bar exam is structured so that you are supposed to understand the meaning of the material, not just the words. But some people can memorize the meanings of say, a court case, without actually learning anything useful, like how it might be applied to the law in the future.
Major Major Major Major
@Corner Stone: These guys? Noooo.
geg6
@TenguPhule:
Do you know any actual lawyers? Because I know an awful lot of them. Some of them are very, very good and totally ethical and cautious.
Some of them make the turtle that lives in my pond in the backyard look like the editor of the Harvard Law Review.
Brachiator
@Ella in New Mexico: .
Trump ain’t that smart.
TenguPhule
The only story I want to read about Trump voters from this point on is their march into FEMA reeducation camps.
Fuck these people.
I’m with Captain Kirk. Let them die.
geg6
@feebog:
Would you have believed that one of them had a crazy assed email chain communication with a total stranger who criticized his client?
A good lawyer wouldn’t do that either. I think the evidence of how good these guys are is in on at least one of them based on his email and lunch conversations.
TenguPhule
@geg6:
Yes. I’ve met and worked with very good lawyers.
Unfortunately, I have also had to deal with the scrapings at the bottom of the bottom of the barrel of legal representation.
J R in WV
@trollhattan:
Hockey is a game much like soccer on ice, but with full body contact, almost as in American football, but less stopping to organize than football. There are penalties, but you still get to knock your opponent out, sit out your timed penalty, and rejoin the game. Unlike football where if you commit some fouls you are expelled from the game.
I guess in NHL they might expel someone who killed an opponent with his stick, but if it was just a hard body check, probably not even a penalty.
Obviously not any kind of expert in Hockey, I have expended all my knowledge and indulged in much speculation, in a (perhaps vain) attempt at humor.
;-)
Brachiator
Dedicated to the Trump lawyers
We’re only making plans for Nigel
We only want what’s best for him
We’re only making plans for Nigel
Nigel just needs this helping hand
And if young Nigel says he’s happy
He must be happy
He must be happy in his work.
Roger Moore
@Omnes Omnibus:
You really think these guys are sloppy enough to talk about something like this in public? That seems crazy to me, though I have to take your opinion more seriously than a random IANAL.
TenguPhule
@J R in WV:
You forgot to mention the heavy sticks and body armor.
coin operated
@feebog:
Trump’s razor…with hubris as a runner up.
O. Felix Culpa
@TenguPhule: A. Can’t possibly guess the pigmentation of these “people.”
B. Fuckem (h/t efg)
C. MSM – enough of the Trump voter articles already. Just. Stop.
J R in WV
@TenguPhule:
Oh – I like this. Much better than a soccer comparison!!
rikyrah
@SiubhanDuinne:
the thought that they would think this could fool Bobby Three Sticks…
BWA HA HA HA HA HA
Omnes Omnibus
@Roger Moore: Yeah, I do. I think it is as likely as them noticing media people nearby and staging a conversation to get some kind of message out.
eric
As i noted, if this was an intentional conversation, then they have waived the attorney-client privilege. So, they will have to say it was an accident, except, the law on expectation of privacy to maintain privilege is not in their favor given the obvious circumstances. This could end very, very badly (for them).
Roger Moore
@Brachiator:
I agree. It only looks as if Trump is being stupid and obnoxious to distract us from the disastrous stuff he and the Republicans in Congress are doing because they’re both pretty much non-stop.
feebog
@Corner Stone:
I get your point (also made by (geg6), but this somehow seems to me to be a too clever attempt by half to sic Mueller on McGahn. OTH, I don’t believe for a minute that Cobb is in favor of full disclosure. Even if Trump has sworn on a stack of “Art of the Deal” that he is innocent, no reasonable person looking at the facts as we know them now, is going to believe him.
Robert Sneddon
@TenguPhule: Shinty is like ice hockey but without the body armour (or ice). Hurling is shinty with edged weapons.
Mnemosyne
All of this hockey talk is reminding me of Bertie Wooster’s explanation of rugby:
This is, of course, extra funny when you know that Wodehouse started his career writing boarding school novels, many of which revolved around rugby games.
Lucy
@Mnemosyne: Rugby is a game played by men with oddly shaped balls.
Corner Stone
@Lucy: Mine are in a sack so I’m not really sure how they are shaped. Is there a test or screening you have to take before they will let you join a rugby team?