Boston ‘Free Speech’ Rally: Well, That Was Anticlimactic, Fortunately

From local news channel WCVB [warning: autoplay]:

One of the planned speakers for the “Free Speech Rally” has said the event “fell apart” and the crowd cheered as police were seen removing flags and other items from the bandstand at Boston Common.

The rally was met with overwhelming opposition as thousands of people gathered on the Common and another 10,000 or more marched to the area from Roxbury…

Several verbal confrontations were observed between counterprotesters and rally attendees as they tried to reach the bandstand. Some of the counterprotesters, who said it was their duty to support free speech, were seen helping the rally attendees through the dense crowd.

Eventually, however, the “Free Speech Rally” organizers seemed to give up.

“I didn’t realize how unplanned of an event it was going to be,” said Samson Racioppi, a candidate for congress who was on the list of speakers publicized by the rally organizers. “I really think it was supposed to be a good event by the organizers but it kinda fell apart.”…

A few dozen people had gathered on the bandstand for the controversial rally, but reporters observed them departing around 12:45 p.m. A few minutes later, police were seen taking down the flags and other items that the rally organizers had hung on the bandstand.

Police escorted the rally attendees out of the area, but some physical conflicts were observed and a phalanx of officers in riot gear emerged near Emerson College as a show of force to quell the crowd.

At the same time, the “Fight Supremacy” march began to reach the area with 10,000 or more participants who were led into downtown from Roxbury by organizers including Black Lives Matter and the Mass Community Action Network…

Video clips at the link.

Kudos to all the local organizers who did non-violence workshops this week. With any luck, Charlottesville will have been a turning point — just not the kind the murderous white supremacists intended.

221 replies
  1. 1
    Jeffro says:

    Woot! Way to go Boston !!

  2. 2
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    Well done, Massholes.

  3. 3
    james parente says:

    I have a friend in attendance. I am proud of her and the thousands of others who showed a let it be known that racism will no longer be tolerated.

  4. 4
    debbie says:

    The biggest accomplishment is that, as far as I’ve heard, there’s been no violence. Take that, you RWAHs!

  5. 5
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    So, the tough guys are not so tough without their penis substitutes, are they?

    Fucking cowards, the lot of them.

  6. 6
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Oh, shit, I said a bad word in a comment. For the male member. It wasn’t cock, it wasn’t dick, it wasn’t wang. It was scientific. Can someone rescue me?

  7. 7
    Dr bloor says:

    Nazis ran before the marchers from Roxbury made it to the rally on the Commons. Great crowd.

    Now, off to the Breakers game in Cambridge

  8. 8
    Baud says:

    I think I have an idea for how to get more people to attend Baud! 2020! rallies….

  9. 9
  10. 10
    Yarrow says:

    Great news!

    With any luck, Charlottesville will have been a turning point — just not the kind the murderous white supremacists intended.

    Seems to be something of one so far.

  11. 11
    Captain Oblivious says:

    These people couldn’t organize a cutlery drawer. Their organizational skills amount to posting “show up at location X on date Y” on the internet.

  12. 12
    Baud says:

    At the same time, the “Fight Supremacy” march began to reach the area with 10,000 or more participants who were led into downtown from Roxbury by organizers including Black Lives Matter and the Mass Community Action Network…

    “Dozens of Real Americans Stand Up to Black Led Mob.” /Breitbart

  13. 13
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    It wasn’t cock, it wasn’t dick, it wasn’t wang. It was scientific.

    … and very common in spam ads, much more so than the slang terms!

  14. 14
    encephalopath says:

    They couldn’t bring their guns, so the white supremacists just didn’t feel safe. If they can’t threaten everyone else lethal violence they just aren’t going to show, apparently.

  15. 15
    encephalopath says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Choad?

  16. 16
    zhena gogolia says:

    Very inspiring.

  17. 17
    Yarrow says:

    @Baud: “Led by illegals.” /Breitbart

  18. 18
    Baud says:

    Is Boston the only place the Nazis were rallying today?

  19. 19
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Captain Oblivious:

    These people couldn’t organize a cutlery drawer.

    To be fair, the official “organizer” behind this Boston rally was one libertarian film-studies major from a college an hour’s drive away (Fitchburg). And he had a much more impressive lineup booked, but all the biggest flapjaws publicly backed out after last weekend, citing the Boston authorities’ totally unfair “no weapons” policy.

    (Some of the most mock-worthy clips this past week were of Bold Brave White Leaders whining ‘how can you expect me to show up in a BIG CITY full of BLACK THUGS if I can’t carry mah penis substitute?!?’ Way to blow the gaffe, fellas.)

  20. 20
    A Ghost to Most says:

    Whoever had gutless cowards in the office pool, you’re a winner.

    Nuthin but cosplay Nazis.

  21. 21
    Baud says:

    @Anne Laurie:

    To be fair, the official “organizer” behind this Boston rally was one libertarian film-studies major from a college an hour’s drive away (Fitchburg).

    Wasn’t named “Leni” by any chance?

  22. 22
    Yarrow says:

    @Baud: I thought there were supposed to be Nazi rallies around the country this weekend, but then I also heard some localities pulled their permits. Not sure where it all stands.

  23. 23
    Aimai says:

    Daughters and I were there! Walked from Roxbury to the Common with the Tubas and trombones mentioned in one of the twitter feeds–we were literally the last row for a while. We bailed before the common because of the heat and a concern we would not make it into the commin proper. Wonderful organization! Great organizers esp the BLM Organizers who handled the Roxbury end. Love my city. Really proud.

  24. 24
    Baud says:

    @Aimai: Awesome. Good for you.

  25. 25
    Anne Laurie says:

    @A Ghost to Most:

    Nuthin but cosplay Nazis.

    And the sad thing is: the real cosplayers had to cancel their long-planned Boston Common rally, because they didn’t want to be confused with these arseholes!

  26. 26
    Yarrow says:

    @Aimai: Fantastic. Glad it went so well.

  27. 27
    Baud says:

    @Anne Laurie:

    “I thought you were going to Boston this weekend.”

    “Got cancelled.”

    “Why?”

    “Nazis.”

    #SomewhereInAmerica

  28. 28

    @Aimai: Thank You. We city folk are made of strong stuff. Through riots and bomb blasts we dust off ourselves and go about our business without dissolving into a puddle of helplessness. Though I now live in small town of less than 1000 people, I am a city dweller at heart.

  29. 29

    @A Ghost to Most:

    Whoever had gutless cowards in the office pool

    Me. Been saying it for awhile now.

  30. 30
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Baud: FTW!!

  31. 31

    Good for them. Concerned that the ones in SF and Berkeley will be powder kegs.

  32. 32
    Adam L Silverman says:

    Seattle PD is also on the case!

    Refers to this:

    He pulls this crap in Florida and someone is going to stand their ground all over his tuchas.

  33. 33
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    So basically for the racists game to work they need to surprise small towns before the police and the counter protester can get organized and likely that’s going to be more difficult for them in the future because even the red states the authorities don’t have any use for gun waving mobs of cosplay thugs.

  34. 34
    Cheryl Rofer says:

    Something we have to keep in mind is that any Republican replacement for Trump will be seriously weakened. Think about Gerald Ford replacing Nixon.

  35. 35
    Chris says:

    Have @BenAffleck and Matt Damon bought the rights to this yet?

    “Why shouldn’t I join the Alt Right? That’s a tough one, but I’ll give it a shot…”

  36. 36

    @Frankensteinbeck: Yesterday JGC was comparing these homegrown Nazis to ISIS. Hyperbole is a great rhetorical device but comparing the battle hardened Republican guards and Iraqi army vets to these college Rs, stretches credulity.

  37. 37

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Something we have to keep in mind is that any Republican replacement for Trump will be seriously weakened.

    Another reason Pence would not be worse.

  38. 38
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Major Major Major Major: My guess is that the police will keep a tight leash. Based Stickman Kyle Chapman is already facing a minimum 12 month prison sentence if convicted for his activities at the March 4 Berkeley event. My guess is that the cops will be all over him the minute he’s on site.

  39. 39
    A Ghost to Most says:

    @Anne Laurie: That sucks. This is why we can’t have nice things..
    .

  40. 40
    Baud says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: That makes no sense unless Mueller cuts a deal with Trump for the “good of the country.”

  41. 41
    Chris says:

    @Anne Laurie:

    To be fair, the official “organizer” behind this Boston rally was one libertarian

    Oh.

    That’s your problem right there!

  42. 42

    @Adam L Silverman: Hopefully. Lots of folks here are itching for a fight.

  43. 43
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: What this misses is that Mueller’s investigation doesn’t just go away if the President should resign. So despite this being based on Tony Schwartz’s analysis from last week, it fails to account for that Mueller will keep doing what he’s doing. And given Pence’s ties to Manafort, who basically made him the VP nominee, and KellyAnne Conway, his long time pollster who works for the Mercer, and through her to the Mercer’s money, he is not in the clear either.

  44. 44

    @Chris: Isn’t Damon a Berner? I remember he used to criticize Obama for not being a pure enough
    liberal.

  45. 45
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Chris: Only if all their mothers are named Martha.

  46. 46
    Yoda Dog says:

    @Aimai: Proud of you guys. Teachers effing rule.

  47. 47
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    He pulls this crap in Florida and someone is going to stand their ground all over his tuchas.

    That or stroke out Brenbart style, living with that kind of rage an’t healthy.

  48. 48
    debbie says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    They will never recover.

  49. 49
    A Ghost to Most says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:
    Yep. I am betting on gutless cowards, and preparing for all in.

  50. 50
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I think Damon was big on “Imagine if we had a president with balls” type stuff. Green-bro-lanternism. I like him, and his heart’s in the right place, but he’s one of many who needs (or needed) to watch the Schoolhouse Rock video on how a bill becomes a law.

    @debbie: They will never recover.

    I hope you’re right, but I’m afraid we’ll see another round of “let’s not have partisan bickering about who voted for, endorsed and enabled that person who accidentally got into the White House…”

  51. 51

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: Him and Breitbart (and Bannon) also share certain… maladies.

  52. 52
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Pence would not be insane. Most of the domestic policy agenda would still be bad to noxious, but we wouldn’t have the foreign policy insanity we see now. I would also expect that he would generally change out most of the domestic appointees, both the cabinet heads, as well as the lower level vetted for loyalty to the President folks that have been installed via the landing teams. I would also expect that while Mattis would stay, as would McMaster, Tillerson would be replaced by a more traditional GOP diplomatic type. Pompeo and Coats would could also stay or go. Coats was the best of a list of bad choices for DNI. Pompeo is a bit better as DCI.

  53. 53
    dm says:

    Those Nazis sure are good at drawing a crowd. Just not the kind they feel comfortable in.

    “If Hillary were President we’d all be at lunch”

    “Vote in the midterms or this is all a waste of time”

    I gave platelets at the Red Cross on Tremont St then walked down the street toward Roxbury until I found the march. The BPD preceded the crowd by several blocks with a small cart that stored at all the newspaper boxes and trash barrels to inspect them.

    Lovely way to spend the afternoon.

  54. 54
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Is it wrong to hope that somehow, some way, this chain of events and associations might end up bringing down the Mercers as well?

  55. 55
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Good for you all. A good fight can be quite cathartic. Despite what the folks in the academic departments titled conflict resolution would like to believe, violence is a quite effective form of conflict resolution.

  56. 56
    Tokyokie says:

    @Baud: Doubt it. Riefenstahl actually had talent.

  57. 57
    cynthia ackerman says:

    @Baud:

    Schnitzengrueben

  58. 58
  59. 59
    Chris says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Don’t know. Sadly, I’d well believe it – seems like that worldview would get a big chunk of followers in Hollywood.

    But what the heck, I still like his movies. That one especially.

  60. 60
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Miss Bianca: The Mercers own a huge stake in Cambridge Analytica and its parent company. The other major stakeholder is a Ukrainian oligarch who is part of Putin’s oligarch cadre. Follow the money…

  61. 61
    Chris says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I would also expect that while Mattis would stay, as would McMaster, Tillerson would be replaced by a more traditional GOP diplomatic type.

    You mean like John Bolton?

  62. 62

    @Adam L Silverman:
    It’s hard to say what Pence would do. On the one hand, he has the discipline to parrot party line in a way Trump does not. Scandals from blurting out the wrong thing would cease, and be left only with scandals from doing the wrong thing, or from the treason investigation. On the other hand, Pence is seriously, seriously stupid. Trump was so incompetent he couldn’t get things done. Pence… I give it 50/50. He isn’t even the brightest light bulb in a coal sack.

  63. 63

    @Adam L Silverman: I don’t think this particular conflict would be well-resolved by violent protests, though.

  64. 64
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Chris: No. Someone like John Huntsman who has been both an ambassador and a governor. There are a couple retired GOP senators who were also ambassadors. People like that.

  65. 65

    @Adam L Silverman: Pence would stop the hollowing out of the civil service and destruction of entire departments, too, which is one of the things Trump is doing that will be very difficult to undo.

  66. 66
    themann1086 says:

    My sister and cousin were in attendance. She sent me a pic of someone holding a sheet cake that read “Nazis suck”.

  67. 67
    efgoldman says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Think about Gerald Ford replacing Nixon.

    Ford faced Democratic majorities in both houses. At least until November of next year, there’s no such impediment on the RWNJs.

  68. 68
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: Correct. But Pence could be shored up by good personnel choices and establishment of proper, effective systems. It wouldn’t make it a good presidency, but it wouldn’t be a mess either.

  69. 69
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Oh, I will. I promise you, “Follow the money” is my new mantra. Well, that and “Nazi punks fuck off”.

  70. 70
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Alex Jones is losing his mind.

    Facts not in evidence. He never had a mind to lose. I hope somebody punches him out for doing that shit. What a loser

  71. 71
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Major Major Major Major: We will have to wait and see.

  72. 72
    dexwood says:

    I love you Boston. Fuck the fucking Nazi cowards.

  73. 73
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Major Major Major Major: It is fixable, will just take time.

  74. 74
    trollhattan says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:
    Pence is the embodiment of the Koch Bro’s perfect empty Republican vessel, an apt pipeline for their ideal vision of America ™pending.

  75. 75

    @Adam L Silverman: “Very difficult” != “unfixable”.

  76. 76
    A Ghost to Most says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: Maybe Alex Jones could be the guy Rump shoots on Fifth Avenue,

  77. 77
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Miss Bianca: It goes beyond this. If you read the biographical reporting on Mercer, Jane Meyer’s long form piece for instance, as well as those done by the Guardian, it is clear that he is out of his league here. For whatever reason his understanding of human value is completely intertwined with personal wealth. He doesn’t believe that anyone who isn’t making tons of money/hasn’t made tons of money has any intrinsic value. Mueller is, perhaps, the archetype for what you want as an example for a public servant who approaches his service through the concept of servant leadership. Mercer, based on the reporting, seems incapable of understanding someone like Mueller. This provides Mueller with numerous advantages.

  78. 78
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: Not my tweet. Not my caption.

  79. 79
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    @Adam L Silverman:
    I saw a comment by Yarrow last night about Russian state tv portraying current events in the US as our “color revolution”. They were predicting civil war and the destruction of the US.

    According to them, who are the good guy protesters? The Nazis?

  80. 80
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I was agreeing with you.

  81. 81
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    I know.

  82. 82
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: The white nationalists. The Russians have been promoting/predicting a US civil war for a while now under Putin. While Dugin’s schtick is largely for external consumption in the US and Europe, not within the Kremlin, this is at the core of his oeuvre. It is also part of the desired outcomes of Gerasimov’s concept of hybrid warfare.

  83. 83
  84. 84
    Another Scott says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I guess it depends on how you define “insane”. ;-)

    Pence is still a bit of an enigma to me. In 2014 he was in Germany talking all tough about confronting Putin:

    Gov. Mike Pence staked a belligerent position toward Russia on Wednesday, declaring the “reset” of U.S.-Russian relations has failed and calling for construction of a European missile defense shield to deter Russian aggression.

    Speaking at a Friends of Indiana reception in Berlin, Germany,

    [wtf?!?]

    the Republican governor minimized the value of economic sanctions against Russia for its takeover of parts of Ukraine, and insisted the U.S. and European Union “must respond with deeds more than words to strengthen our economic and strategic defenses.”

    “With Russian aggression on the rise again, it is clear that our policy of conciliatory diplomacy has failed,” Pence said. “Especially now, I believe it is imperative that we who believe in democracy and freedom, stand against the forces that would reshape Europe by aggression.”

    Pence, who previously served on the Foreign Affairs Committee in the U.S. House, told the gathering of German business leaders that the U.S. and Europe must beef up NATO to safeguard the freedom, security and prosperity of the West by “deploying a robust missile defense in all of Europe — including Poland and the Czech Republic.”

    President Barack Obama in 2009 scuttled a Bush administration plan to put interceptors in central and eastern Europe to shoot down missiles fired by Iran or North Korea. Russian President Vladimir Putin had vehemently opposed NATO positioning the missile defense system near Russia’s borders.

    Relations between the U.S. and Russia were strained while the plan remained under consideration.

    Then-Congressman Pence said at the time that Obama’s decision to cancel the missile program “emboldened rogue dictators across the globe, and now an increasingly antagonistic Russia has been rewarded for bullying and threatening its neighbors.”

    The 2012 Republican presidential nominee, Mitt Romney, echoed that sentiment last month when he told CBS News that Obama has been naive in dealing with Putin and only canceled the missile shield “as a gift to Russia.”

    Pence repeatedly has claimed he’s not planning a presidential campaign of his own, telling anyone who asks, “I haven’t spent one second thinking about anything other than the job I was hired to do.”

    However, Pence recently admitted he’s taking calls from conservative activists urging him to run for the White House in 2016.

    […]

    That was the bog-standard Teabagger position at the time. One could argue that his arguing that the sanctions were too weak to do anything (and thus not thinking they were important) was helpful to Putin, I guess. (In reality, such arguments do help Putin, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that Pence would support their removal. It’s hard to see him thinking that far ahead…)

    Why would Manafort (who is seemingly obviously in Putin’s pocket) have such sway over him that he would agree to be 2nd fiddle to Donnie in being Putin’s lapdog? Is he too stupid to see what was happening (in which case one really can’t say that he wouldn’t be worse than Trump), or is he so power-crazed that he would do anything to get on the ticket (ditto), or was his Germany speech just for the rubes while he was willing to go any direction that would give him more power (ditto), or …

    Pence is an empty suit, but I don’t know what else is inside him besides: 1) his religious beliefs that he wants to impose on the rest of us; 2) his willingness to support Trump even when he must have seen from the beginning that he was horrible; 3) his willingness to work with an obviously compromised man (Flynn) and ignore his oath; 4) his willingness to do any political job after his career crashed in Indiana; etc., etc.

    He’s dangerous to the USA and the Constitution, IMHO.

    But it’s not clear that he’s in Putin’s pocket.

    We’ll see. Go Bobby, Go!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  85. 85
    Chris says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Oh, thank God. Yeah, that wouldn’t be too bad.

    I just keep remembering that this is the party that thought it was appropriate to send Bolton, a man who thought the UN should pretty much be abolished, to be ambassador to the UN.

  86. 86
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I did read an excerpt of that Meyer piece, and I am bracing myself to tackle “Dark Money” sometime in the near future. It makes me sick that people like the Mercers and the Kochs (who probably believe the same things, but just not as cluelessly open about it) are allowed to keep their billions – honestly, I really think we aren’t going to get anywhere with political reform until, in addition to a Citizens United overturn, we impose the kind of confiscatory taxation on billionaires that will make their worst fever dreams come true.

  87. 87
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    My husband keeps assuring me Pence would not be worse. “He has zero charisma, he has zero hold on the American public.” But I’m a pessimist. I KNOW he won’t be worse, but it won’t be good either. And he does NOT deserve to be POTUS.

  88. 88
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    How do they expect that to work? There are more of us than there are of them. And a US civil war would be a disaster for them too The world’s largest economy being thrown into chaos? Come on.

  89. 89

    @Chris: why, that would be like putting somebody who doesn’t believe in public housing in charge of HUD, or somebody who doesn’t believe in public education at DOE, or…

  90. 90
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Another Scott: I think this is a good description:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....5b96c663f6

    On the evidence of a lifetime, America’s vice president is not a complex man. Instead he is three extremely simple ones: an incompetent ideologue, an obsequious toady, and a self-serving schemer.

    Much more at the link.

  91. 91
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Help, I think my comment just got eated.

  92. 92
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Chris: Bolton was picked by Cheney, Rumsfeld, and their deputies – Addington, Libby, Wolfowitz, Feith, etc.

  93. 93
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Adam L Silverman: @Chris: No. Someone like John Huntsman who has been both an ambassador and a governor. There are a couple retired GOP senators who were also ambassadors. People like that.

    J Willard Romney is getting press coverage somewhere between Lindsey Graham’s and John McCain’s. Corker, too, because apparently no one in the Chuck-Toddiverse saw this

    “I spoke with President Trump at length this morning and told him that I could not be more pleased with his first international trip,” Corker said in the release. “The trip was executed to near perfection and it appears the president has made great progress on the broad range of objectives his team articulated to me when I met with senior White House and State Department officials during their preparations.”

    this was the trip where trump, among highlights, ranted without hinge at the other heads of NATO countries, shoved another head of state to get in the front row of a photo-op, and had his nat-sec team yelled at by their Israeli counterparts because trump burned one of their key sources with ISIS to the Russians

  94. 94
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: I’m not saying it’s rational, I’m just saying that’s what they’re saying.

  95. 95
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Another Scott:

    he so power-crazed that he would do anything to get on the ticket (ditto), or was his Germany speech just for the rubes while he was willing to go any direction that would give him more power (ditto), or …

    It’s this.

  96. 96

    @zhena gogolia:

    My husband keeps assuring me Pence would not be worse. “He has zero charisma, he has zero hold on the American public.” But I’m a pessimist. I KNOW he won’t be worse, but it won’t be good either. And he does NOT deserve to be POTUS.

    If nothing else–if Pence is so bad that he’d only be a lateral move–removing Trump would show the nation that actions have consequences and there are some things even Republicans can’t do.

  97. 97
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Miss Bianca: It has been freed.

  98. 98
    Baud says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Agreed. It’s not even debatable that Trump should go.

  99. 99
    debbie says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    The GOP can’t slogan their way out of this.

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    I bet this is that “character” he’s so fond of playing.

  100. 100
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I’m at the point where I would be okay with some solution that just makes Romney president.

    I know, I’m desperate. Because I am.

  101. 101
    Baud says:

    @debbie: They aren’t going anywhere. Too many people want them to be successful.

  102. 102
    rikyrah says:

    Sydette‏Verified account @Blackamazon

    Uhm so when do we talk about white male editors of left leaning papers who constantly retweet Nazi centered stories
    8:44 AM – 19 Aug 2017

  103. 103
    Mike J says:

    Boston can now ignore these nazi fuckheads and concentrate on important stuff, like beating the fucking Yankees.

  104. 104
  105. 105
    Cheryl Rofer says:

    @Baud:

    That makes no sense unless Mueller cuts a deal with Trump for the “good of the country.”

    I agree. When I post tweets, I don’t necessarily agree with them, just want to share what’s going on. I should probably comment on each to make that clearer.

    ETA: I am working on a post along the lines of “what happens if…” Might get it done today or tomorrow.

  106. 106
    JPL says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Congress can shut down the Mueller investigation. If rumors are true that the attorney general of NY is investigating Trump, he won’t go easily. It will get pretty ugly.

  107. 107
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Major Major Major Major: removing Trump would show the nation that actions have consequences and there are some things even Republicans can’t do.

    Thrird’d. We already have the worst of a potential Pence presidency on the Supreme Court and in the judiciary. The only way to stop that is with a massive wave in 2018, which would pretty much require (Senate-wise) Dems to run the table in holding on to (god help us) McCaskill and Manchin and beating Heller and Flake. And even then we’re at, I think, 50-50.

  108. 108
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Miss Bianca: As I’ve written here before, the Citizens United ruling was actually really bad for the GOP despite what they believe. It allowed all this actual money, from a variety of sources – some we have good reason to now believe is foreign, to come in and hollow out the Republican Party. There is no longer a GOP, just a shell. There is no single center of gravity among the GOP, or a consortium of the Reagan era part of business conservatives, social/religious conservatives, defense hawks, and libertarians. Rather each hyperwealthy elite at the national level, and wealthy elite at the state and local level, is their own center of gravity. So Art Pope is the GOP in North Carolina because he holds the long term lease on the GOP in North Carolina. Rupert Murdoch holds the long term lease on the GOP/conservative informational space, but he is being challenged by both the Mercers and the Sinclair family.

    It was this reality that the President either instinctively understood or that someone else understood and convinced him he could walk right through all the competing wealthy and hyper wealthy interests and execute a hostile takeover.

  109. 109

    @Another Scott:
    When discussing Pence, it is important to realize that he was both so stupid and extreme that Indiana Republicans, people who currently think the real problem is liberals oppressing Nazis, turned against him. Pence is DUMB. He doesn’t recite party line because of message discipline. He does it because he’s too stupid to think of anything but rote repetition of what he’s been told to say. He is stupider than W, without the charm and with less moderate positions. He’s not just an empty suit, he’s a walking dumpster fire in his one right.

    It’s only because he’s standing next to Trump, a man smashing records for incompetence and bad message discipline, that Pence looks like me might be even as positive as an empty suit.

  110. 110
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    They’d have better luck trying to radicalize minorities tbh. If the Civil Rights and the VRA had never passed imagine the late 60s and how they would have turned out. The US could have easily self-destructed when faced with army trained black minority back from Vietnam.

  111. 111
    JPL says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: The gop internal polls must be terrible.

  112. 112
    Cheryl Rofer says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Absolutely. See my comment to Baud at #105.

  113. 113
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: A lot of the news media has short term memory/recall issues.

  114. 114
    Baud says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    They’d have better luck trying to radicalize minorities tbh.

    Maybe they think Trump gives them both.

  115. 115
    Kay says:

    Has a happy ending:

    After playing trombone his entire life, Scharfeld set out to invent an intuitive and playable simulation of the instrument for the iPhone.
    He wanted his apps to have a catchy name, so he did some research and found that “bone” was a term used for trombones, and ‘trump” was a term used for thousands of years for a trumpet.
    So in December 2010, Scharfeld registered his trademarks, iBone, and iTrump. He then began selling the apps from the iTunes store for $2,99 each, with artwork that showed a picture of the instrument and keys to play various notes solo or along with recorded music.
    About a month later Scharfeld got a legal letter from Donald Trump’s lawyers demanding that he cease and desist from using the name iTrump, and immediately rename his app.
    Trump’s lawyers argued that his use of the name would “dilute” the “famous” Trump trademark built over many years for everything from buildings to books to the TV show, “The Apprentice.”
    When Scharfeld refused, because he believed Trump was “100 percent wrong,” because the word trump has many meanings, he worked to prove his trumpet app had nothing to do with the mogul, who was about to become a politician and would not create confusion.
    Having little money, Scharfeld became his own lawyer. He went to the local law library and did extensive research, studying the forms and rules for the filing of documents.

    “They just wanted to waste my time,” Scharfled told Forbes, “and disrupt my business.”

    He won! The mean-spirited, nasty Trump Family withdrew.

    As if anyone wants their sleazy name anyway. Trumpets should sue them.

  116. 116
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @JPL: Congress is not going to do so. Congress could also shut down the Trump Administration. They are also not going to do so.

  117. 117
    Cheryl Rofer says:

    @efgoldman: Yes. Which is why we have to get out the vote next year, big time.

  118. 118
    Baud says:

    Here’s what may be plausible. Trump becomes so damaging to the GOP that their billionaires actually raise enough money to pay Trump to resign. I don’t think Trump quits on his own for free.

  119. 119
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Baud:
    Perhaps.

  120. 120
    smintheus says:

    @Another Scott: One of the main reasons it’s hard to understand Pence is that he lies reflexively about nearly everything. That’s also another reason why Pence is so dangerous.

  121. 121
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: McCaskill and Manchin are fine. Sure, maybe you get Jason Kander as a better Democrat from Missouri, but you don’t get him until the other Missouri seat is up in 2022. You aren’t going to get a better Democrat from West Virginia any time soon.

  122. 122
    Yarrow says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Why would Pence make better personnel choices when he’s also owned by Russia?

  123. 123
    Chris says:

    @Miss Bianca:

    I am bracing myself to tackle “Dark Money” sometime in the near future.

    Ugh. I keep thinking I should read that book, but that it would just leave me too depressed.

    @Adam L Silverman:

    @Chris: Bolton was picked by Cheney, Rumsfeld, and their deputies – Addington, Libby, Wolfowitz, Feith, etc.

    Oh, yeah. But that’s what made me worried – aren’t those guys, that worldview, basically the party’s establishment as far as foreign policy goes?

  124. 124
    randy khan says:

    @Mike J:

    Boston can now ignore these nazi fuckheads and concentrate on important stuff, like beating the fucking Yankees.

    Last night was a good start, although I would have liked it better without the Sox giving up their initial lead.

  125. 125
    Mnemosyne says:

    I have to admit, this made me a little verklempt. This is how you show these assholes that no one supports them — by peacefully outnumbering them 500 to 1.

    The attempted right-wing protest of Google in Venice (CA) collapsed soon after it was announced and the organizers realized how many pissed-off liberals were going to show up. The liberals are still showing up, and it sounds like the plan is to turn it into an impromptu street festival.

  126. 126
    Yarrow says:

    @Another Scott:

    Why would Manafort (who is seemingly obviously in Putin’s pocket) have such sway over him that he would agree to be 2nd fiddle to Donnie in being Putin’s lapdog?

    Not Manafort. Putin. And kompromat.

  127. 127
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: There was an attempt at that type of subversion. The Soviet, and now the Russian, intelligence services are very good at working all the seams, including the differing extremes, off against everyone. There have always been attempts to penetrate both sides, and both extremes, by these folks. In 2016 they didn’t just target conservatives, GOP voters, the extreme right in the US, they also targeted both Senator Sanders supporters, as well as Democrats of color, and Americans on the far left in an attempt to retard the vote for Secretary Clinton. They had a decent amount of success too.

  128. 128
    p.a. says:

    I think the Dems have to chain Pence to tRump, because Pence might be more damaging as pres: he’s no smarter but he has loyal followers who aren’t actual flag waving Nazis. His talebangical base is more sub rosa fascist, and has the rethugs by the short curlies where tRump has next to no base in the institutional rethug party. If they can’t get trashed together we MIGHT be better off with tRump distilling the rethug party down to its 27% essence. Assuming his handlers can keep his teeny fingers off the nuke button. Then we wait for the 2018 and 2020 elections and hope the dems don’t blow it or vote suppression is overcome by tRump revulsion.

    Some options, huh? 😨

  129. 129
    Chet says:

    Over at GOS they linked to this tweetpic. Pissah.

  130. 130
    Yarrow says:

    @Miss Bianca:

    honestly, I really think we aren’t going to get anywhere with political reform until, in addition to a Citizens United overturn, we impose the kind of confiscatory taxation on billionaires that will make their worst fever dreams come true.

    Agree 100%. Interestingly, this discussion has been part of Al Gore’s media tour for the follow up to An Inconvenient Truth. He went into quite a bit of detail in some interview I heard on NPR. Sorry, don’t know what show as I was only in the car for a short while, but did catch that bit. I was glad to hear him bring it up. It’s a big problem with why citizens feel so disconnected from their government.

  131. 131
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Chris: Those folks are the hard, far edge of it. There’s actually some variation, but overall, in the US, there isn’t a lot of space between the left and right boundaries on foreign policy.

  132. 132
    Yarrow says:

    @Miss Bianca:

    honestly, I really think we aren’t going to get anywhere with political reform until, in addition to a Citizens United overturn, we impose the kind of confiscatory taxation on billionaires that will make their worst fever dreams come true.

    Agree. Interestingly, this discussion has been part of Al Gore’s media tour for the follow up to “An Inconvenient Truth”. He went into quite a bit of detail in an interview I heard on NPR. Sorry, don’t know what show as I was only in the car for a short while, but did catch that bit. I was glad to hear him bring it up. It’s a big problem with why citizens feel so disconnected from their government.

  133. 133
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Chet:

  134. 134
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I remember your making that point, which I thought was a very astute one. What I’m wondering now is whether the Soopergeniuses at the RNC level are realizing the extent to which the party has been fucked over, and whether, in order to save it, they could be persuaded to lend their efforts to a CU overturn. Oh, who ami kidding? Of course not! Ideology uber alles, after all, and what could be more Republican than “no limits on any money, anywhere” and “Corporations are people, my friend!” even if it ends up killing the thing they thought they were preserving.

  135. 135
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    They thought liberals would just sit back and take it. They were wrong. If there’s going to have to be violence, let the Nazi dbags try it. It worked so well for Bull Connor.

  136. 136
    randy khan says:

    @Chris:

    You mean like John Bolton?

    While I think Bolton is a bad guy, his foreign policy wouldn’t be markedly different from a standard Republican, for better or for worse. Where he’d be markedly better than the current incumbent is that he is something of an institutional guy, and understands that you need the full infrastructure of the State Department in place to be effective. Or, put differently, since he wouldn’t empty out the building, his successor would have less work to do to right the ship.

  137. 137
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Miss Bianca: They are what they’ve always been.

  138. 138
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Mnemosyne: Come for the protest, stay for the party! That’s the Liberal ™ Spirit! : )

  139. 139
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Adam L Silverman: in other words, “no”. ; )

  140. 140
    Mike J says:

    @randy khan:

    Last night was a good start, although I would have liked it better without the Sox giving up their initial lead.

    When it went from 0-3 to 6-3, I said I thought it would wind up 6-9.

    But I’m with you. A nice boring blowout (our way) would be nice.

  141. 141
    Chris says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    the Citizens United ruling was actually really bad for the GOP despite what they believe. It allowed all this actual money, from a variety of sources – some we have good reason to now believe is foreign, to come in and hollow out the Republican Party. There is no longer a GOP, just a shell. There is no single center of gravity among the GOP, or a consortium of the Reagan era part of business conservatives, social/religious conservatives, defense hawks, and libertarians. Rather each hyperwealthy elite at the national level, and wealthy elite at the state and local level, is their own center of gravity.

    It’s interesting: years and years ago, somebody here was explaining to me about the demise of old-school political machines in the U.S, and a phenomenon similar to this was part of the equation – that wealthy elites had learned to circumvent the party machinery and exert influence more directly. By the sound of it, Citizens United basically took that phenomenon and kicked it completely into overdrive.

  142. 142
    Yarrow says:

    Trying to reply to Miss Bianca about the money in politics issue but it keeps trashing my comments. Trying without the link.

    Interestingly, this discussion has been part of Al Gore’s media tour for the follow up to “An Inconvenient Truth”. He went into quite a bit of detail in an interview I heard on NPR. Sorry, don’t know what show as I was only in the car for a short while, but did catch that bit. I was glad to hear him bring it up. It’s a big problem with why citizens feel so disconnected from their government.

  143. 143
    efgoldman says:

    @Another Scott:

    Pence is still a bit of an enigma to me.

    Just remember that when he was in congress, he was widely considered the dumbest rep in the house, and by the time he left the Indiana state house, even the RWNJs did away with some of his initiatives.

  144. 144
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Yarrow: I know he was on Fresh Air recently. I have the podcast saved but haven’t listened yet

    @efgoldman: Hard right GOP advisor–but not unfunny person– Rick Wilson called him “sentient mayonnaise” yesterday

    the Rough Beast is tweeting that the Boston rally was an “anti-police” demonstration

  145. 145
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Chris: Yep. One of the major threats to the US, as well as the EU, Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Japan, India, and a host of other countries is a prolonged campaing by hyperwealthy elites.

  146. 146
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Yarrow: It is free.

  147. 147
    Chet says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Sweet. I guess this one now qualifies as a throwback.

  148. 148
    chris says:

    @Mnemosyne: Looks like fun.

    Also Posobiec again. This guy… http://www.laweekly.com/news/p.....ce-8542466

  149. 149
    efgoldman says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    the Citizens United ruling was actually really bad for the GOP despite what they believe. It allowed all this actual money, from a variety of sources – some we have good reason to now believe is foreign, to come in and hollow out the Republican Party. There is no longer a GOP, just a shell. There is no single center of gravity among the GOP

    Yeah, professor Pierce noted this in 2008.

  150. 150
    Another Scott says:

    @Adam L Silverman: That was good. Thanks.

    But the question remains – What’s the connection between him and Putin, and why did it apparently change from 2014?

    Or IOW, why Pence? There’s a whole lot of RWNJs that were more “successful” than Pence. Why pick him?

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  151. 151
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Yarrow: wait, that sounds waaayyy too edgy for N(ice)P(olite)R(epublican) Radio!

  152. 152
    NotMax says:

    Thank you, Boston.

  153. 153
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @chris: Posobiec is going to be lucky to come out of all this with an honorable discharge. His clearance has already been suspended and my guess is it will be caged permanently. He keeps this up and the Navy is going to give him a bad conduct discharge.

  154. 154
    Yarrow says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: That might have been it. I came in during his discussion of money in politics and how representatives have to go off site to make phone calls all the time. They end up talking to rich people and bundlers because that’s where the money is, so it’s almost normal they end up listening to what those people say and want–it’s who they talk to. He wasn’t condoning it–just explaining the problem and how it happens. He said when he was in Congress it wasn’t nearly like it is now.

    He did a huge round of shows and I saw him bring it up the issue of money in politics on, I think, Bill Maher’s show but he didn’t spend much time on it there.

    I was just glad to see someone of stature talking about the nuts and bolts of the problem. I know a certain Senator has been yowling about millionaire and billionaires for awhile, but this discussion was much more about how it’s corrosive, which I thought was good to have someone describe. Just screaming about “money in politics” is as old as dirt.

  155. 155
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @efgoldman: He is a very sharp guy.

  156. 156
    Yarrow says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Which one? I think it failed twice. I kept editing. I think it was the link to Miss Bianca’s post. When I took that out it posted.

  157. 157
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Another Scott: I have no answer to that.

  158. 158
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Yarrow: I freed the more recent of the two attempts.

  159. 159
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Yarrow: They end up talking to rich people and bundlers because that’s where the money is, so it’s almost normal they end up listening to what those people say and want–it’s who they talk to.

    Also infects the media. “entitlement reform” vs “protecting Social Security and Medicare” is a good example. The former was the first faceplant of Bush’s second term, the latter was key in trump winning the nomination and then the Electoral College.

  160. 160
    Yarrow says:

    @Another Scott: If Putin is picking people he needs to have something on them. Rumors are he has sexual kompromat on Pence. Who knows if that’s true or we’ll ever even know. Apparently Pence was also mixed up with some people in Indiana who had ties to Putin, so there could be some financial dealings as well.

    So your answer to “why Pence” might be that he was among a smaller group of people who would be considered an acceptable VP choice and who Putin had enough dirt on so that they wouldn’t turn on Trump and who Putin could control.

  161. 161
  162. 162
    efgoldman says:

    @Yarrow:

    Apparently Pence was also mixed up with some people in Indiana who had ties to Putin, so there could be some financial dealings as well.

    Occam says it’s plain old grift graft. Indiana politics can be a sewer that way

  163. 163
    FlyingToaster says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    the Rough Beast is tweeting that the Boston rally was an “anti-police” demonstration

    I called him a liar on twitter.

    According to @bostonpolice, trouble only occurred after the “rally” was over; there’s been some urine and rock throwing over on Tremont (other side of the Common from the counterprotestors at the State House and Beacon/Charles), near where they loaded the right wingers into prisoner transports to get them outta here. Even odds it’s the out-of-town teenagers they’ve been busting in the North End every weekend for vandalism and underage drinking.

  164. 164
    JPL says:

    Unfortunately Trump didn’t see the peaceful march but did notice some recent skirmishes

    Looks like many anti-police agitators in Boston. Police are looking tough and smart! Thank you.

    This a tweet that he deleted.. Is there a way to front page it?
    https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/899001860639641600

  165. 165
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @zhena gogolia: The thing is there’s nobody in the line up for succession that wpuld be good. We just have to hope for less worse.

  166. 166
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Yarrow: I’m always the troublemaker…and Adam, bless him, is always helping dig us out of the trash, which is where FYWP apparently thinks we belong! //

  167. 167
    Captain C says:

    @Baud: If that deal is something like “I give up all my ill-gotten gains (i.e. all off them) and all my org’s info on Russia and agree to go to jail for life if you let my guilty kids* out after a few years,” I could live with that.

    *=Uday, Qusay, and Lucrezia

  168. 168
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Charles P. Pierce‏Verified account @ CharlesPPierce 24m24 minutes ago
    Walked from Roxbury to the Common. The BPD was cool as hell. Posing for selfies with men in tutus. The president* is slandering good people.
    27 replies 480 retweets 1,145 likes

  169. 169
    FlyingToaster says:

    FWIW, The Boston Mayor (Mahty!) and BPD commissioner are having a press conference right about now. If my fucking browser would behave (don’t ask, I know what’s wrong fuck GOOGLE), I’ll see if I can watch it and report back.

  170. 170
    chris says:

    @Adam L Silverman: They should strip search him for Nazi/white power tattoos.

    Did you see that his former employer Rebel Media is coming apart at the seams over their coverage of Charlottesville? ‘Tis a thing of beauty.

  171. 171
    Captain C says:

    @Adam L Silverman: The Mittster comes to mind, as well.

  172. 172
    Yarrow says:

    @Miss Bianca: LOL. I wonder if FYWP trashed my comment because it linked to yours and you also had one trashed. I tried various edits but only after I took out the link to yours did it finally post. I included your name but not the link and it posted fine, so it’s obviously not your name that set it off.

    Adam is very kind to rescue us.

  173. 173
    Mel says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Here’s a question for which there might be a readily available answer, but if so, I haven’t been able to find the answer yet.

    What happens to the order of succession (or at least, what SHOULD happen), if Mueller uncovers concrete, legally bulletproof evidence that Russian influence directly influenced the election in favor of Trump, and concrete evidence linking Trump and his campaign to this is also uncovered. (Yes, I know that we all know that media manipulation, social media bots, etc. did influence the outcome, but I’m thinking of something so concrete and provable that it ensure Trump’s ouster.)

    Since we are in uncharted territory here, do any of Constitutional law experts have ideas about how would that impact the legality of Pence assuming the Presidency? In the case of Nixon’s resignation, obviously the issue was wrongdoing of the President alone, after he was in office. How would the issue of wrongdoing of a current administration (PRIOR to taking office) which illegally allowed them to obtain the office, likely be addressed?

    If Trump’s ticket illegally attained office, would that or would that not disqualify Pence from taking the Presidency?

  174. 174
    Yarrow says:

    @Captain C: Ha ha! As if Trump would take the fall for anyone, even his kids. Ivanka would be the only exception and I don’t think he’ll take the fall for her because she’s teamed up with Jared–they have the same lawyer.

    Trump will throw everyone under the bus before he goes. Everyone. Pence better watch his back. I don’t think Trump is the type for front-stabbing.

  175. 175
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @FlyingToaster: on MSNBC now

  176. 176
    debbie says:

    @efgoldman:

    The GOP didn’t know it, but they lost control of the party as soon as CU passed. My favorite ad from 2008 was put out by American Future Fund, based in Iowa and funded at times by the Kochs, though I think they were too whack even for them.

    The ad is very short. It’s just that man with the voice of doom intoning: “Obama likes Wall Street, and Wall Street likes Obama.” I never reached the tv quickly enough to see the visual, but I remember thinking how most of establishment GOPdom would have a fit hearing that.

  177. 177
    rikyrah says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:
    Pence is up to his eyeballs in the Flynn mess.

  178. 178
    rikyrah says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    Vanilla ISIS

    Thanks, BC for that name 😄

  179. 179
    Mel says:

    Sorry for typos above. I have two cats play tussling on my desk, right by my elbow. They are using my arm as the rope for their Gorgeous Cats of Wrestling ring.

  180. 180
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @Kay: As I’ve mentioned before a close relative has been burdened with that surname. She and her Dad are currently discussing whether to take his mother’s or grandmother’s maiden name when, not if, they petition for change. The decision to move on this, though under discussion since election day, became definite last Monday. Meanwhile, I have another young relative surnamed Cantwell. In both cases, no relation. Sigh.

  181. 181
    Cheryl Rofer says:

    @Mel: No simple answers. A discussion of that will be part of my post, hopefully tomorrow.

  182. 182
    rikyrah says:

    @Miss Bianca:
    Investigation into the data leads directly to Jared and the Mercers

  183. 183
    NotMax says:

    @Mel

    No. There’s a substantive difference between manipulation of voters and manipulation of number of votes actually cast.

  184. 184
    efgoldman says:

    @Mel:

    How would the issue of wrongdoing of a current administration (PRIOR to taking office) which illegally allowed them to obtain the office, likely be addressed?

    Agnew didn’t illegally obtain the office, but he chose to resign in order to get a lesser conviction and sentence for actually taking ca$h bribes across the MD governor’s desk. I imagine if they make Dense an offer he couldn’t refuse, something similar would happen.

  185. 185
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Mel:

    This is the question I can’t get away from, and no one seems to be even trying to answer it (I haven’t read the rest of the thread yet, so maybe the great minds on BJ have, but I have not seen it in the MSM).

  186. 186
    rikyrah says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:
    He is stupider than W- that is an accomplishment.
    Pence isn’t bright.At all.

  187. 187
    FlyingToaster says:

    Per the Boston Police Commissioner, 27 arrests, almost all of “people not from either side, who we knew from social media were coming here to cause trouble”. No property damage, no mass arrests, no arrests during the rally at all.

    3 groups: “Free Speech” protestors at Parkman Bandstand; Counter-protest at the Statehouse (Beacon Street near Park) and Anti-racism march from Reggie Lewis Center in Roxbury to speaker’s platform at Beacon & Charles.

    ~35 yard cordon around Parkman Bandstand, no entrance to the bandstand except via the police-manned gate on Tremont.

    The trouble was almost all on Tremont after the rally, with people who gatherered and refused to move for the police prisoner transports; the riot squad did have urine and rocks thrown at them, but singled out individuals and arrested them. Several people who were not cleared into the bandstand area were arrested for altercations on the Common after the rally was over.

  188. 188
    Yarrow says:

    @Mel: I’ve seen some discussion of this online among lawyers. The short answer is, we would be in uncharted territory for which we don’t have definitive statutes or precedent. As NotMax notes, if they didn’t manipulate votes but only voters, we don’t have specific steps in place to handle it. However, a foreign enemy state with a specific goal of making one candidate lose the presidency or be seriously damaged could be seen as a type of warfare and also determined to be election interference to the point where the election’s validity was called into question.

    Perhaps there is an argument that the Supreme Court, minus Gorsuch, would be called in to make a decision. There was some discussion of looking to states for precedent, but I don’t know specifics on that.

    Everything I saw was speculation, so take with salt.

  189. 189
    mwing says:

    Hello,
    I was wandering around Boston Common from about 1:15 to 2- saw no sign of the alt-right guys (turns out they had already left) but thousands and thousands of pro-equality types, who were all doing what one does at demonstrations, which was milling about and photographing each others signs. I saw a happy crowd, it was basically a love-fest, not surprising because they (we) were all on the same side. Tons of police but I saw no fights. There was a moment when a squad of state police in all-black heavy riot gear assembled in front of the State House, and people around me were just like “What are THEY doing here?”, because there was clearly nothing going on that required riot police. No idea of the people count- just LOTS.

  190. 190
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Mel: I do not know. I’m sure someone is thinking about it, but I don’t know who.

  191. 191
    FlyingToaster says:

    @mwing: They were at Tremont and Boyston earlier, getting Joe Biggs and co into the prisoner transports, and getting shit thrown at them. I believe they were sent up to the statehouse to assemble for their busses out.

    The “Free Speech Rally” asked for a police escort out when their social media links told them that 20,000 people were marching from Roxbury and had just crossed over the Pike. Gone at 12:49.

    Oh, and the Commissionah said that he esitimated 40,000 people showed up today.

  192. 192
    MomSense says:

    I couldn’t be there today but a bunch of my knitting friends were. They’ve been planning and buzzing about it all week.

  193. 193
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @FlyingToaster: Oh, and the Commissionah said that he esitimated 40,000 people showed up today.

    Zounds!

  194. 194
    MomSense says:

    @rikyrah:

    I think the person who came up with that gem is the historian Gerald Home. He was in Ari Melber’s program right after Charlottesville and then I saw it hit twitter. If you get the chance to watch that clip, do. He laid it out so clearly.

  195. 195
    Elizabelle says:

    Proud that Bostonians and others turned out to protest. Glad the wimmens did not stay home, stuffing their mouths with sheetcake.

    Just saw the Tina Fey skit. Lame; just lame.

  196. 196
    Elizabelle says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Still, Pence-Rubio is nothing that voters voted in. I hate the idea of rewarding the GOP with another presidency. Wish Mueller’s investigation would turn up serious doubts that the Electoral College “victory” was legitimate.

    I’m still hoping for President Pelosi.

  197. 197
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Yarrow:

    And Merrick Garland could be seated?

  198. 198
    zhena gogolia says:

    @FlyingToaster:

    Haha, the word “Roxbury” concentrates the mind . . . .

  199. 199
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Elizabelle:

    I really disagree. But I guess the joke went over everyone’s head.

    She was eating cake, but she was speaking bitter truths passionately on national television. The message was, do this.

  200. 200
    Yarrow says:

    @zhena gogolia: That would be nice! I don’t know how it would work for real, though.

  201. 201
    Mel says:

    @efgoldman: That was my thought, as well.

    @Yarrow: The idea of looking to states’ processes is really intriguing.

  202. 202
    Mel says:

    @zhena gogolia: It is driving me to distraction, too, and so far I have found nothing concrete.

  203. 203
    Mel says:

    @NotMax: Absolutely.

  204. 204
    Yarrow says:

    @Mel: It’s been several months so I am pretty sure I can’t find the discussion–sorry about that. But what I remember is that when there is no precedent at the federal level the Supreme Court goes to the states. And that there is some state precedent on some of this. I don’t know what states they were referring to. Part of the discussion was that it might end up in front of the SC because, if the Russian interference and collusion turns out to be as bad as it seems it is, then the entire federal election would be compromised and might need the SC to help sort things out. Again, it’s all completely unprecedented, so I think if it ends up that way we’ll be figuring it out as we go along.

  205. 205
    Silent no more says:

    Friends attended, and told of seeing two older white women carrying an American flag into the counter-protest crowd, shouting things including “we want our country back”. The flag was grabbed and one woman fell over. They may have been provocateurs, there was a “no man’s land” between the two groups and these ladies chose to go into the counter-protest area.

  206. 206
    Another Scott says:

    @Mel: All we can go on is the Constitution.

    All of the protections about a stolen or illegal election were in place before they were sworn in (legal challenges before certification by the states; the EC; certification by Congress). There’s no Constitutional way to somehow claim the results were incorrect now even if some warehouse of ballots is found. Too many people put Party first, and protection of Sources and Methods first, so the protections against a monster taking over as President failed.

    The only way to get Donnie and Mikey out of office before January 2021 is via Impeachment. (Even the 25th Amendment is for temporary incapacitation (unless you believe that the the Teabaggers would really implement Article IV).)

    Who is the next president (if it is before January 2021) depends on whether Trump or Pence goes first. It’s highly, highly unlikely that they would leave at exactly the same time. Mueller no doubt is looking at all the ramifications and implications of whatever he contemplates doing with the evidence he has. He didn’t take the job to cause a Constitutional legal crisis that can’t be addressed by existing laws.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  207. 207
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Elizabelle:

    I think her point didn’t land, because the final thing she said didn’t match with the rest of the skit. If staying home to rage-eat a sheet cake doesn’t help, why would her conclusion be that we should all stay home?

    I think she was trying to walk the line between calling for protests and calling for violence and she fell. It happens. I still enjoy the rest of the sketch.

  208. 208
    Mnemosyne says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    Also, this. We should be speaking those bitter truths to the people we know rather than smiling and nodding and going home to rage-eat a sheet cake.

  209. 209
    J R in WV says:

    All you Massewhuchests up there in Beantown,

    Congratulations on showing how it should be done!

    Good job, well done.

    Bumped into my cousin (the only one left here out of a dozen when we were kids) last night at the grocery. He told me he had offered to help a friend move into an apartment last weekend – in Charlottesville, VA !!! No problems, fortunately, but was pretty scary.

    He proudly showed me his ACLU membership card, which he obtained on or around November 9th, 2016. As did I, without knowing he was gonna.

  210. 210
    NorthLeft12 says:

    A few minutes later, police were seen taking down the flags and other items that the rally organizers had hung on the bandstand.

    WTF? I did not know that the Boston Police served as the clean up crew for fascists and bigots. Hope the city send the organizers a bill for the garbage disposal.

  211. 211
    Mel says:

    @Another Scott: Indeed, no clear Constitutional remedy exists to deal with my hypothetical scenario.

    Therefore, as Yarrow noted, it seems possible that, in such case, a new process or legal procedure might have to be implemented. So, where would we go to find cases which might help to determine a course of action? And would it even be ethical or legal to allow Pence to assume the Presidency if it were proven beyond any reasonable doubt that Pence was also implicated? It would seem a cumbersome and legally questionable process to impeach Trump, then let Pence assume the Presidency with full knowledge of guilt /complicity, and then immediately repeat the impeachment process.

    Of course, outside the parameters of my scenario question, if Mueller finds incontrovertible grounds for Trump being charged in any of the areas that appear to be under investigation, and impeachment proceedings take place, but Mueller does not find foolproof evidence of wrongdoing by Pence, then Pence would assume the Presidency. But my question deals with the possible scenario in which both would be found to have colluded with a foreign power to illegally influence the results of the election, thus essentially rendering the results of the election itself invalid.

    A couple of acquaintances who have legal expertise have suggested that in that scenario, a Constitutional convention might actually be required to determine / create a method by which this situation would be resolved, since it would be well outside the parameters of anything we have seen before, and b/c there exists no current Constitutional law to deal with that particular scenario. I’m just wondering how such a new procedure might function, what it might look like, and to what sources the Justice Department and /or Congress would turn to determine the above.

    A year and a half ago, who would have ever thought we would even need to contemplate these possibilities? It all seems so surreal.

  212. 212
    Suzanne says:

    Okay, this is giving me some hope that the rally on Tuesday in Phoenix isn’t going to be a shitshow.

    So Agent Orange is coming to Phoenix on Tuesday night to hold a rally. Rumor is that he is going to pardon Joe Arpaio. There are going to be lots of counter-protests, but for the first time, I am scared shitless. I don’t see how this doesn’t end in rioting and bloodshed.

    I have never been scared away from a protest before, but I am really on the fence about this one. I want to be a good ally. I also don’t want to be stupid.

  213. 213
    Another Scott says:

    Go. It’s important. Take a friend if you can, and keep your wits about you.

    If something bad does happen, FSM forfend, it’s highly unlikely that you would be involved (just the math of large numbers).

    Let us know how it goes. Be safe, and good luck!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  214. 214
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: What makes anyone believe that Pence won’t be taken down by Mueller along with Trump?

  215. 215
    Annie says:

    @Aimai:

    Hope San Francisco does as well next week as Boston did today.

  216. 216
    NotMax says:

    @Mel

    Presuming your worst case scenario (Pence succeeds to the office and is also directly implicated), there is legal precedent that criminal charges can be brought against a president for actions or activities which took place before he/she assumed the office.

  217. 217
    Ian D Osmond says:

    @Captain Oblivious: To be fair, I can’t organize a cutlery drawer, either. I can’t figure out where the grapefruit spoons should go.
    … but I do know where the alt-right can go….

  218. 218
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Mercer, based on the reporting, seems incapable of understanding someone like Mueller. This provides Mueller with numerous advantages.

    Dorky, I know, but isn’t there a passage like that in The Lord of the Rings? Gandalf explains that one advantage they have over Sauron is that Sauron would never guess that someone who actually has the Ring would be seeking to destroy it, rather than using it to take over the world.

  219. 219

    @Suzanne: Listen to your gut feeling, do what feels right.

  220. 220
    Gvg says:

    I think it’s now unlikely that any scenario that removes Trump won’t also remove Pence and probably most of the cabinet, even the ones already gone seem to be complicit it what has been implied so far. I even think some of Congress is going to turn out actively and knowingly to be taking Russian money for instance. Which might also change the vote totals.
    Hmm my best imagination scenario is jail 3 GOP senators before charging Trump. Shumer as majority leader. Wish we could get the house. I would love Pelosi as President instead.

  221. 221
    AndoChronic says:

    Now if they could just run the Red Sox out of town maybe my Twinkies will have a shot… Thanks anyways jerks. Good work!

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