Saturday Evening Open Thread

It’s been a rough day…

“And, in the end
The love you take
is equal to the love you make.”

Open thread.


86 replies
  1. 1
    zmulls says:

    My song was “I Don’t Think I’ll End It All Today” by Harold Arlen and Yip Harburg, performed by Lena Horne and Ricardo Montalban. But I feel you.

  2. 2
    A Ghost to Most says:

    We were so young, and full of hope when that song came out.

    How did it come to this?

  3. 3
    sharl says:

    {Quietly whispers in sad, angst-y voice, ‘Duck pics are always welcome’.}

  4. 4
    raven says:

    @A Ghost to Most: You’re kidding, right?

  5. 5
    lamh36 says:

    Earlier in a parking garage in #Charlottesville – white supremacists beat this black kid w/poles. [Photo for by @zdroberts @NationofChange]

  6. 6
    A Ghost to Most says:


    I was thinking of Theoden at Helm’s Deep. Sorry for the confusion

  7. 7
    lamh36 says:

    The risks of going hoodless in the social media age: Twitter users are identifying the white nationalists who marched on Charlottesville.

    .@YesYoureRacist and others are not holding back. But then, these white nationalists were willing to be public in support of their views.

  8. 8
    dnfree says:

    @A Ghost to Most: That’s what I was thinking–young and full of hope. It has been a long time since the 1960s when I thought we were on our way to rejecting this kind of hatred. I remember the twisted contorted faces of white housewives screaming at young black children integrating schools, and the dignity and bravery of those children. How do these white supremacists think their behavior makes white people appear to be superior in any way?

  9. 9
    lamh36 says:

    JUST IN: Booking photo of James Alex Fields, Jr. @NBC29

  10. 10
    raven says:

    @A Ghost to Most: There we’re 11,616 Americans killed in Vietnam in 1969. That doesn’t even touch the Vietnamese dead. “This is the dawning of the age of aquarius. . . “

  11. 11
    TaMara (HFG) says:

    @sharl: I don’t have any new photos, but how about a sweet story? Last night as I was putting them to bed – they both stopped and made it clear they wanted to be picked up and scritched under the neck – and then they both bumped me with their beaks until I rubbed them there – it was very cat like behavior. Then they settled right into the crate.

  12. 12
    randy khan says:

    Yglesias, making a hopeful point that we shouldn’t forget:

    January 21 v. today

    Sorry, never have figured out how to embed tweets into comments.

    ETA: Duh, I should do like everyone else and post it as a block quote:


    Worth remembering that about a 1000 times as many people came out for the Women’s March as for the Unite The Right rally today.

  13. 13
    sharl says:

    @TaMara (HFG): Haha, thanks. That IS a cute story.

  14. 14
    p.a. says:

    So what the fuck we gotta have a couple nationally broadcast Bull Connor moments every fucking generation to shame ourselves (I’m white) into baby steps towards decency for a few years?

  15. 15
    Another Scott says:

    @randy khan: Thanks for that.

    Only front-pagers can embed tweets. Us normal people can only cut and paste the text and supply a link.


  16. 16
    TaMara (HFG) says:

    @randy khan: That IS a good reminder. I would do it for you, but somehow in one of the updates, I lost the ability to embed in the comments (I think only FP can do it). I need to ask Adam to walk me through it.

  17. 17
    sharl says:

    @randy khan: Commenters cannot embed native tweets, only the front-pagers have the ability to do that. Those of us commenters who do leave tweets here can put in varying amounts of effort to make the tweet look “natural”, and it can take a fair amount of copying/pasting to do, if one is cursed with anal retentive tendencies (as I apparently am).

    A simple link is fine, as far as I am concerned.

  18. 18
    Heywood J. says:

    One of the most beautiful things ever laid to tape. Forty years after I first heard it, that side 2 Abbey Road suite still makes the hair on my arms stand up. Just amazing.

  19. 19
    lamh36 says:

    @AngryBlackLady 30s31 seconds ago

    Yes it is. Always has been. Stop tweeting feel good hashtags and go fix this shit. It’s not on us. It’s on you.

  20. 20

    @A Ghost to Most: I thought you were echoing Théoden! But then I told myself I was being LOTR obsessed.

    ETA: Oh look. The system puts an accent on Théoden.

  21. 21
    Mike J says:

    @A Ghost to Most:

    We were so young, and full of hope when that song came out.

    I think I had recently learned to go potty when this came out. Not smearing shit around puts me ahead of the leadership of our country.

  22. 22
    lamh36 says:

    Whatever Teddie…sure good idea, but we all know what’s behind it…2020 anyone?

    JUST IN: Ted Cruz asks Justice Department to investigate Charlottesville crash as domestic terrorism

  23. 23
    chris says:


    Today is the day Donald Trump became President of the Nazis— TBogg (@tbogg) 13 August 2017

    Click pulldown arrow at right of tweet. Click “embed tweet” and copy. Paste here. Voila.

  24. 24
    efgoldman says:

    @Heywood J.:

    Forty years after I first heard it, that side 2 Abbey Road suite still makes the hair on my arms stand up.

    I first heard it in the car, on a big AM top 40 station. I was not prepared for the way She’s so Heavy ends. (as if they physically cut the tape); it was morning rush hour, and I nearly plowed into another car or two, I was so shocked.

  25. 25
    trollhattan says:

    Our young French visitor is in SF with the girls today and I wonder what she thinks of today’s murder by car, as she and her family were “50 meters” from the Bastille Day truck murders in Nice.

    Welcome to America, the civilized nation.

  26. 26
    Catatonia says:

    Ms. Ifill iis sounding the perfect line on JReid,s show (which I know is taped) right now.

  27. 27
    lamh36 says:

    Some of the folks tweeting about not taking these wannabe nazis seriously because of attire or age recognized friends & family in these pics

    Because this Thanksgiving some of you are going to be sitting down to dinner with your neo nazi nephew & you might want to deal with that.

    Because bluntly when your neo nazi nephew rocks up on my porch I won’t be talking to him. Won’t be tolerating him. At all.

  28. 28
    Old Dan and Little Anne says:

    I was behind a car today that had a red MAGA hat in the back windshield. I wanted to fucking scream. And I just found out my wife’s nitwit friend’s racist son was in Charlottesville. Mom spent a lot of time on FB complaining about FLOTUS and her divisive graduation speeches last spring.. Goddamn these fucking people.

  29. 29
    Heywood J. says:

    @efgoldman: Yeah, I remember hearing that for the first time too, that abrupt cut ending, waiting for something more, hanging on the edge of something. So cool. Easily my favorite Beatles album, front to back.

  30. 30
    efgoldman says:

    @Old Dan and Little Anne:

    Mom spent a lot of time on FB complaining about FLOTUS and her divisive graduation speeches last spring.

    People hear what they expect to/want to hear. No accounting for assholes.

  31. 31
    Another Scott says:

    @p.a.: Yesterday and today are reminders that progress is never permanent. We have to work to move the country forward or it is too easy for others to drag it back.

    Next June is 20 years since James Byrd, Jr. was dragged to death. We are making progress as a country, and it is horrible that people pay with their lives so that the rest of us and those who come after can live better lives (via changing laws and attitudes).

    We can’t accept Trump’s actions and administration as “normal”. It’s not. It’s not who we are, and we need to do what we can to prevent and reverse his horrible actions. Don’t get discouraged.

    We have to fight them every single day.


  32. 32
    sharl says:

    @chris: ..test..

    Amazing how the guy who speaks off the cuff with respect to Korean nuclear weapons chooses his words precisely to avoid condemning bigots.— Paul Musgrave (@profmusgrave) August 12, 2017

    ETA: Thanks Chris! I had always assumed that link was only for blog owners. It’s full features may not be available to us mere commenters, but it’ll do for most of my purposes.

  33. 33
    Peale says:

    @randy khan: I think just as many people showed up at various airports to protest the Muslim ban. And they had less notice.

  34. 34
    burnspbesq says:

    I wonder how many of the social media geniuses who are accusing the C’ville PD of dropping the ball, and alleging that the ball-dropping was ratially motivated, are aware that the chief is African-American.

  35. 35
    debbie says:


    Not in the Aryan mold at all. And 20 fucking years old too.

  36. 36
    lamh36 says:

    CBC: “@realDonaldTrump is a president after all who has 2 white supremacists working for him in the White House…” #Charlottesville

  37. 37
    efgoldman says:


    Amazing how the guy who speaks off the cuff with respect to Korean nuclear weapons chooses his words precisely to avoid condemning bigots.

    It’s going to be really, really interesting to see what the next round of polls looks like.
    Has Tangerine Torquemada hit his floor yet? America wants to know.

  38. 38
    lamh36 says:

    Compare this horrific photo by @zdroberts today of white supremacists beating black kid in Charlottesville to Freedom Riders attack in 1961.

  39. 39
    debbie says:

    @A Ghost to Most:

    If that came out after 1968, then no, hope had left the building.

  40. 40
    Adam L Silverman says:

    Jared needs to stop hanging out with Bannon, Gorka, and Miller!

  41. 41
    A Ghost to Most says:

    Yep, and we thought that when we were in charge, we wouldn’t allow this bullshit to happen anymore. Turned out that the bulk of the boomers weren’t out to save the world, but felt entitled to steal it.

  42. 42
    NotMax says:

    @Another Scott

    The country gained a killer
    And the country lost a man

    Phil Ochs, Too Many Martyrs.

  43. 43
    bupalos says:

    Has Tangerine Torquemada hit his floor yet? America wants to know.

    Has America hit its floor yet? Bupalos want’s to know.

  44. 44
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @raven: I started kindergarten that year. I only mention that because I was, indeed, young and full of hope as a five year old.

  45. 45
    khead says:

    Not sure anyone mentioned this here earlier in the week, but have y’all heard the story of the St. Louis Rally Cat?

    Kitten runs on field interrupting the game. Kitten BITES THE SHIT out of dumbass groundskeeper kid that grabs kitten with no gloves on. Twice. Cards player hits grand slam on next pitch. Kitten gets away because dumbass woman thinks she can just carry the kitten home. Feral rescue group catches kitten. Kitten now in quarantine waiting to be adopted. Rally Cat Appreciation Day coming next month.

  46. 46
    debbie says:


    They just had the head of FOP on (not AA, not thin) and he was blaming police reticence on Ferguson. Of course.

  47. 47
    Adam L Silverman says:

    Well this is just inconvenient.

  48. 48
    chris says:

    @Another Scott: I saw the news this morning of the march last night and a video of those militia types with their guns and I thought, “This will not end well.” At the end of the day three people died and there were a number of injuries but nobody got shot. Progress!

  49. 49
  50. 50
    debbie says:


    The cat was scratching the shit out of the bat boy who caught him.

  51. 51
    Another Scott says:

    @A Ghost to Most: Really? More boomer bashing?

    Last I looked, Rumsfeld and Cheney and Scalia and Rehnquist and Reagan and Gramm all of the rest of the people who did their best to destroy the commonweal via attacks on the Constitution and the economy and the middle and lower classes weren’t boomers.



  52. 52
    chris says:

    @sharl: You’re welcome, pass it on

  53. 53
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Bannon told him if he wore them no one would recognize him.

  54. 54
    lamh36 says:

    @Adam L Silverman: posted that in a previous thread, Adam. But then some have said it was photoshopped by the Nazi guy, but didn’t really happen?

  55. 55
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Another Scott: Pssst, I believe that AGTM is a boomer and is bagging on his own.

  56. 56
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Ha!

  57. 57
    Adam L Silverman says:


  58. 58
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @lamh36: The pic is legit, but it isn’t actually Kushner. He left for Saudi and other Arab states in the Middle East to try to gin up regional support for an Israeli-Palestinian peace process. The guy in the picture looks just close enough for everyone to have a good laugh at Jared’s expense.

  59. 59
    opiejeanne says:

    @A Ghost to Most: I don’t think it was the bulk of us Boomers who did that, I think it was a select group.

  60. 60
    sharl says:


    the [Charlottesville PD] chief is African-American

    I was unaware of this, and it is good to know. Having said that, the Chief is answerable to a City Council, whose members in turn are voted into office (or not) by the city’s citizens, and city government is also subject to various rules imposed by state and Federal government.

    The point often made by African-American commenters and news analysts is that, in a political/governing system infused with structural racism, the fact that individual leaders may be POCs is not always as relevant as people claim it to be. In fact, racists will often use this dodge to evade responsibility, e.g., “hey, a black dude was in charge; why aren’t you blaming him!” This was used against Obama all the goddamn time. [Reminder/disclosure; I am a lifelong white dude.]

    We have at least one resident of Charlottesville who comments here, and I’m kinda hoping s/he reports in on occasion on what happens in that city from here on out. Their local paper seems to have a problem with the black folks, e.g., here and here. (On that last link, I have my own issues with Cornel West, but they don’t appear to be same issues that The Daily Progress has; note the common feature in the caption of each photo. Hmm…)

  61. 61
    Adam L Silverman says:

    For all today’s horror and tragedy there is still progress and hope:

    Salt Lake County Democrats on Saturday chose Unified Police Deputy Chief Rosie Rivera to lead one of the state’s largest law enforcement agencies as county sheriff through 2018.
    Once the County Council signs off, she will become the county’s first female sheriff and the only woman overseeing a sheriff’s office in Utah.

    Rivera, who has more than 20 years of law enforcement experience and has overseen policing for the Unified Police Department in its Riverton precinct, is poised to replace former Sheriff Jim Winder, who left in July — a year before his term expired to lead the Moab Police Department.

    “We together can ensure that there’s equal rights, equal justice and equal opportunity for everyone,” Rivera said Saturday morning. “We will hire, we will retain and we will make opportunities for everyone.”

    Dozens of Rivera supporters, including UPD employees and others, cheered as the county party’s leaders announced Rivera had beaten the four men also vying for the spot at the convention at the Salt Lake Community College Miller Campus.

    Once she’s sworn in, Rivera will take over at a time of immense pressure to fight crime and improve homeless services in Salt Lake County, all of which involves an overcrowded jail Rivera will oversee.

    “It will be a change, I think, for the public more than for law enforcement,” Rivera said. ”I want them to see that women can be leaders, too.”

    The County Council must ratify the party’s decision and is scheduled to do so Tuesday. State law, which dictates how political parties fill elected positions when officials resign or retire, doesn’t give it power to block the selection.

    Her supporters heralded the party’s choice, which they said will make her one of few sheriffs of color in the nation.

    Rivera told the gathering of Democratic insiders she would win the 2018 election, when the position is on the ballot again for a full, four-year term.

    “My idea is community policing,” she said. “To bring us all together so we can get together and work on the homeless issue, the jail bed issue, the opioid epidemic.”

    Once she’s sworn in, Rivera will take over for Undersheriff Scott Carver, who has been acting sheriff in the wake of Winder’s departure in July.

    Rivera said part of the solution for crowding at the jail is having the county fund the operation of the Oxbow lockup, where hundreds of potential beds are unused. It would cost more than $9 million to staff and operate that facility jail, according to sheriff’s office estimates.

    Another solution, Rivera said, is ensuring people who don’t need to be in jail aren’t kept there.

    “We want to incarcerate the most dangerous individuals that don’t need to be on the street,” Rivera said. “The other piece is those who come to jail who don’t belong there, such as people who suffer from mental illness. If they committed a violent crime, they belong there.”

    Rivera edged out Steve Anjewierden in a runoff vote after the two bested three other active law enforcement officials in a first vote among 271 Democratic insiders.

    In her speech before the runoff vote, Ken Hansen, Levi Hughes and Fred Ross — who lost in the first round — stood by her side. The crowd roared as the party’s executive director, Quang Dang, announced Rivera defeated Anjewierden, 173-81, on the second ballot.

    Anjewierden, who was flanked by Salt Lake County Councilman Sam Granato, congratulated Rivera on her victory.

    “I’m proud of the race I ran and gave it a great effort. I love the sheriff‘s office, UPD and our community,” he said. “Congratulations to Rosie.”

    Her selection was quickly welcomed by Salt Lake County Mayor Ben McAdams and by Lt. Gov. Spencer Cox.

    “Congratulations, Sheriff Rivera! I look forward to working with you,” Cox wrote on Twitter. ”We’ve got a lot to do.”

    Rivera will be sheriff as a large collection of state, city and county agencies has assembled working groups to perform a crime sweep of the Rio Grande area in downtown Salt Lake City. The state worked to temporarily free up hundreds of beds in the county jail as part of the effort, and Rivera will be thrown into months of ongoing discussions on the issue.
    he said she’s been kept apprised of the upcoming police action in the neighborhood as part of UPD’s command staff.
    “It will be a very smooth transition,” Rivera said. “I’m already at the helm of the other commanders.”

  62. 62
    bupalos says:

    @A Ghost to Most: This makes me think about the too-satisfied and too-patient folks that expect “demographics” to usher in a shift left and solve a lot of this crap. Don’t count on it folks. Things will change, but probably not in the straight line we hope or envision.

    I honestly am not sure were in that much of a better place on race than when I was in grade school in the 70’s. There are tons of tangible things you can point to (maybe especially for LGBT) where it’s not close, but some progress feels even further off. The whole way we’re even talking about race starts to feel very permanent, more emphasis on the primacy of ethnicity not as a heritage of experience and expression but some kind of permanent biological fact. Further away from the idea that our diversity is anything other than a problem for us to overcome. Further from the idea that there’s a debt to be paid that we’ll all be better off paying than denying and welshing and hoping is forgotten.

    I’m probably wrong about that, I hope I am. I’ve just for a long time felt it’s not something that can really fade away with time, more like a time skins over the ulcer thing, but that we’re clearly just kind of waiting for it to go away.

  63. 63
    Nom de Plume says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Russian Encouragement Industries

    I thought that was trademarked by the White House?

  64. 64
    Another Scott says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Even so, it’s a bit of a “do not push this button” with me, here.

    I’m a boomer, as are both Obamas, both Clintons, Al Franken, Al Gore, etc., etc.

    Generation-bashing is stupid.


  65. 65
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Adam L Silverman: He looks enough like any extra from American Psycho that it works.

  66. 66
    opiejeanne says:

    @Another Scott: Thank you. I’m getting damned sick of being accused of doing something or other that destroyed my kids’ futures.

  67. 67
    Steeplejack says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    There was no call to link to that song!

  68. 68
    Adam L Silverman says:

    This is your College Republican (and Senator Heller of Nevada – awkward!):

    This is your College Republican on burning citronella:

  69. 69
    Steeplejack says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I believe she was referring to the picture of Millennial Mike with Trump.

  70. 70
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Steeplejack: Well that’s no fun.

  71. 71
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Another Scott: FWIW, I see a difference between the demographic and the cultural Baby Boom. If, like Barack Obama, you are too young to remember the JFK assassination – or like the former FLOTUS and me, you were born after it happened, you are not culturally a Boomer.

  72. 72
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Nom de Plume: I’m sure they’ll work out a profit sharing agreement.

  73. 73
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: There is definitely a creepy vibe.

  74. 74
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Steeplejack: Sorry.

  75. 75
    lamh36 says:

    Uh huh…and this is just how Dylann Roof et all get away with their bullshit…smh

    She knew he was going to an alt-right “protest”, but…

    Samantha Bloom, James Fields’ mother: “I try to stay out of his political views. I don’t get too involved.”

  76. 76
    randy khan says:


    Well, that explains it. And I know I wouldn’t want to go through the rituals necessary to become a front pager even if they wanted me. (I’m sure they involve mustard and rooftop nakedness.)

  77. 77
    Another Scott says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Ok, but that makes no sense to me. After all, one could apply the same “cultural” distinction to any other generation.

    IMHO, it’s simpler to simply use the (mostly) well-understood and (mostly) agreed definition of boomers – those born between 1946 and 1964.

    Just my $0.02.


  78. 78
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Another Scott: The Doors, Beatles, Rolling Stones, etc, are were born before 1946. But do lump me in with my dad’s younger sister (1946 and 1964) and my dad with his aunt (1925 and 1943). There is a difference between the demographics and the culture.

    ETA: Simple is easy; it isn’t always right.

  79. 79
    Another Scott says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Sure, there’s a difference between demographics and culture.

    But “baby boomer” means someone born (in the USA) between 1946 and 1964.

    You’re actually supporting my view that it’s stupid to criticize people based just on their birth year (which is what “boomer bashing” is). ;-)

    [eta:] It’s not a matter of “simple” vs “right”, or whatever. It’s a matter of not taking well defined words and attempting to use them as a cudgel in a different context.

    “Baby boomer” was used to define a bulge in population after WWII. It wasn’t describing anything about culture or musical tastes or economic evil-ness or whatever those who want to “bash boomers” try to apply it to. (How’s that for a mangled sentence?)


    (Who realizes many disagree.)

  80. 80
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Another Scott: I agree with you that criticizing someone for their birth year is absurd. Nevertheless, I would move the cultural definitions of the generations to about five years earlier than the demographic one. Do you really want to say that Grace Slick was a part of the silent generation?

  81. 81
    Shalimar says:

    @lamh36: Staying out of his political views did not end well. Now she gets to visit him in prison for the rest of his life.

  82. 82
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Another Scott:

    “Baby boomer” was used to define a bulge in population after WWII.

    I know that. I think that you don’t accept my point that I believe that demographics and culture do not match up. That is fine.

  83. 83
    burnspbesq says:


    That’s all relevant of course. The only point I’m trying to make is that, assuming for the sake of discussion that the C’ville PD under-performed, nobody really knows why–and that anyone who Is assuming that it was racial has an inconvenient fact they have to account for.

  84. 84
    sharl says:

    @randy khan

    Did you see the final line of chris’ comment at 23?

    Click pulldown arrow at right of tweet. Click “embed tweet” and copy. Paste here. Voila.

    I tried it (#32) via my own twitter account, and it works. It’s possible that you need to be logged in on a twitter account for that embedding feature to be available; I haven’t checked that out. But that’s a pretty convenient feature that I didn’t realize was usable by non-front pagers.

    [And if there’s a disturbing ritual for admittance of new front-pagers, I hope they at least gave Cheryl a pass.]

  85. 85
    sharl says:

    @burnspbesq: That’s certainly all fair. But I still hope a proper investigation is undertaken of local and state government/law enforcement responses – starting with the previous night’s rally by the Tiki torch nazis – and by “proper investigation” I don’t mean pin-it-on-the-black-police-Chief (nor for that matter, the sole black city councilor who the local paper has already blamed).

  86. 86
    Another Scott says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I don’t think you can tie “culture” to birth years either.

    Both Iggy Pop and Mitt Romney are 70 years old.



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