Poll-Axed (Open Thread)

Most Americans recognize that Trump is a shitty president. He’s polling worse at the six-month mark than any president, going back through 70 years of polling. Via ABC News:

Just 36 percent of Americans polled in a new ABC News/Washington Post poll approve of Trump’s job performance, down 6 points from his 100-day mark, itself a low. The previous president closest to this level at or near six months was Gerald Ford, at 39 percent, in February 1975.

People also hate the massive transfer of wealth from the working poor and middle-class to the super-rich that is disguised as a healthcare reform bill known as “Trumpcare,” AHCA or BCRA:

On his party’s signature campaign issue, health care, Americans by a 2-1 margin prefer Obamacare over the Republican plan to replace it, 50-24 percent. (Another quarter either want something else entirely, 17 percent, or are undecided, 9 percent.) “Strong” preference for the existing law surpasses strong preference for the GOP plan by 20 percentage points. Relevant to proposed GOP cuts in the growth of Medicaid, the public by a broad 63-27 percent says it’s more important to provide health care coverage for low-income Americans than to cut taxes.

None of this matters much right now since the GOP is playing to its base, which resides in the Fox News propaganda bubble. But if Trumpcare is defeated, this odious administration could go into a death spiral, which is why we should use the wealthcare bill vote delay occasioned by McCain’s health issues to jam congressional phone lines, visit local offices, etc.

Trump has seen this polling, and it left a mark:

Yeah, if you exclude the fact that every other president in the history of U.S. presidential polling posted better numbers at this juncture, it’s “not bad” — and besides, it’s inaccurate! Trump also takes comfort this morning in his ability to visit a self-branded country club for a golfing event and encounter more supporters than detractors:

Oh, and the media is unfair, and projection remains a thing:

What a fucking crybaby. What a colossal failure. What an embarrassment.

I’m steeling myself for a family event later this month where I expect to encounter and argue with Trump supporters. As always, my goal won’t be to try to talk sense into them. Anyone who pulled the lever for that bigoted degenerate given what we knew on 11/8/16 is beyond the reach of reason or decency, and anyone who is still defending him given what we know now is a cultist.

My objective is to sow seeds of doubt, to communicate that they’ve been had, so as to suppress future turnout among people who are clearly too goddamned stupid to entrust with enfranchisement. Wish me luck!

265 replies
  1. 1
    Chris says:

    To paraphrase Groucho Marx, I find these kinds of family reunions very educational. Every time someone starts talking about politics, I go into the next room and read a good book.

  2. 2
    Gozer says:

    My objective is to sow seeds of doubt, to communicate that they’ve been had, so as to suppress future turnout among people who are clearly too goddamned stupid to entrust with enfranchisement. Wish me luck!

    ZOMG!!! Dems engaging in voter suppression! Both sides…Killary…Etc.

    I think I might hit the Tanqueray early today.

    EDIT: Almost forgot, Both Sides!! Fake News…And what other brain-dead conservative tropes am I missing?

  3. 3
    Elizabelle says:

    Luck.

  4. 4
    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap says:

    What a fucking crybaby. What a colossal failure. What an embarrassment.

    This may be true, but right now he is giving you and everyone else the finger and laughing about it. Remember, when the deep state was going to go nuclear and Trump would spend the rest of his days in jail? Good times. Hunker down it’s going to be a loooooong 4 years.

  5. 5

    It seems to me that the reaction of the Rs and Trump voters to the Russia scandal has tipped a whole lot of people into calling them “beyond the reach of reason or decency.” I know it did me.

    ETA: I should add that for me, this feels like despair. I know despair is useless and self-defeating, and yet, it seems to be where I am at the moment.

  6. 6
    Jerzy Russian says:

    Good luck Betty.

  7. 7
    JMG says:

    I’d say “sorry you were tricked by that con man” in a tone of voice letting them know you’re anything but sorry.

  8. 8
    ET says:

    But, but didn’t some poll say that 50% of those polled in areas he won still support him?

    (even that doesn’t sound so good, I would have pegged that higher)

  9. 9

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:
    All evidence is that Trump spends every waking moment writhing in misery because he’s the worst winner ever, and the Deep State IS going nuclear. That just takes months or even years to reach the ‘behind bars’ stage. Whether he’ll finish his first term is hard to say. Elected Republicans will defend him in lockstep until suddenly they turn against him. That’s how it has always worked.

  10. 10
    debbie says:

    I do not see the word “cool” coming out of that pudgy mouth.

  11. 11
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Whiny ass titty baby tweets wut?

  12. 12
    NeenerNeener says:

    Sowing chaos, confusion and disorder among Cult 45 members is a noble goal.

  13. 13
    debbie says:

    I’m steeling myself for a family event later this month where I expect to encounter and argue with Trump supporters.

    Betty, I do hope you’ll share your techniques for those of us in the same horrible boat.

  14. 14
    Yarrow says:

    With all of its phony unnamed sources & highly slanted & even fraudulent reporting, #Fake News is DISTORTING DEMOCRACY in our country!

    He’s just working to undermine people’s trust in the media so that when the really bad stuff comes out they won’t believe it.

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:

    Remember, when the deep state was going to go nuclear and Trump would spend the rest of his days in jail? Good times. Hunker down it’s going to be a loooooong 4 years.

    No. This whole thing is accelerating. Trump certainly won’t finish his term.

  15. 15
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:

    but right now he is giving you and everyone else the finger and laughing about it.

    I don’t see any laughter from him. The finger? Yes, but no laughter. I see tantrums, whines, finger pointing, deflection, distortion, ignorance, misery, sociopathy and a whole lot more, but Laughter? No, none of that.

  16. 16

    Get them to defend his most embarrassing failures and insane policies and don’t let them deflect the question in whatabouttery and change the damn topic.

  17. 17
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Yarrow:

    He’s just working to undermine people’s trust in the media so that when the really bad stuff comes out they won’t believe it.

    No, he doesn’t plan any further ahead than the next bowl of ice cream. He is reacting, always reacting.

  18. 18
    gene108 says:

    I wonder what the geographic distribution of the 36% is?

    High disapproval in CA, NY, etc does not offset approvals in MS, AL, WY, WV, etc, even though more people disapprove in NY and CA, the four states that approve still get two Senators each, and electoral votes and members of the House.

    Population is so unevenly distributed and the Constitution, and unwillingness to increase the number of seats in the House, rewards rural areas over urban areas national disapproval is not as meaningful as it could be.

  19. 19
    Sentient AI from the Future says:

    @JMG: “at least it was only the direction of the country and the further immiseration of millions at stake, rather than losing your life savings or something important”

  20. 20
    moops says:

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: yeah, I recall Fitzmas. I would say the media is more eager for a scandal now, and only the outlets with the mandate to support the GOP are shy about the animosity.

    I wonder if journalists will eventually try and go native again and trade favorable reporting for access. I’m surprised Trump hasn’t figured that one out.

  21. 21
    West of the Rockies (been a while) says:

    Indeed, best of luck — once more unto the breach!

    Shaming Trumplings doesn’t seem to work, and logic and reason are useless. For every actual fact, they have their own secret squirrel facts. They whip out charges of fake news. When they acknowledge an actual GOP failing, it leads to immediate diversion — “Yeah, well, what about Clinton?”

    Hey, maybe this is part of an actual playbook! Didn’t the Coulterwockey put out a book about how to argue with liberals?

  22. 22
    JMG says:

    @ET: The point of that poll was that Trump’s approval percentage is significantly below the percentage of votes he won in those places in 2016.

  23. 23
    gene108 says:

    @Yarrow:

    He’s just working to undermine people’s trust in the media so that when the really bad stuff comes out they won’t believe it.

    I think it is working effectively with his base.

  24. 24
    Jinchi says:

    HillaryClinton can illegally get the questions to the Debate & delete 33,000 emails but my son Don is being scorned by the Fake News Media?

    When did getting questions to a debate become illegal? And in who’s universe is “deleting emails” comparable with colluding with a hostile foreign power?

  25. 25
    WaterGirl says:

    My objective is to sow seeds of doubt, to communicate that they’ve been had, so as to suppress future turnout among people who are clearly too goddamned stupid to entrust with enfranchisement. Wish me luck!

    I tried reason and logic with a family member a week ago and was left only with disappointment and disgust. I think your approach is much smarter than mine was. Sowing seeds of doubt is brilliant and ‘letting them know they’ve been had’ is something that would come back to a person time and again. Yours may be the only way forward!

  26. 26
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: I really believe defeating Trumpcare could be a turning point, if we can pull it off. Most of the elected officials in the Republican Party Above Country Party know Trump is a dangerous know-nothing and an international embarrassment, but they’ll support him as long as 1) their fear of his base surpasses their fear that Trump’s incompetence could endanger their own reelection prospects, and 2) they can use him to rubber-stamp their unpopular plutocratic agenda.

    If Trumpcare is defeated, Trump will flip the fuck out and act even more erratically. He’ll viciously attack fellow Republicans. The Villagers will obsess about his stalled agenda, and he’ll obsess over the coverage. I’ve been a broken record on this all week, but I sincerely believe it could be a huge shockwave that could move all anti-Trump efforts forward.

  27. 27
    Yarrow says:

    I’m steeling myself for a family event later this month where I expect to encounter and argue with Trump supporters.

    As fast as things have moved this week, who knows where we’ll be by the end of the month. Maybe the pee tape will have dropped. Maybe Trump will have thrown Pence under the bus in an effort to save himself. By that time you might be discussing completely different things with your family than you are even thinking about now. “So how do you feel about Trump giving Putin our nuclear codes?”

  28. 28
    father pussbucket says:

    @Yarrow:
    I hope you’re right, but Nixon at least had enough cognitive function to recognize when his goose was cooked. I worry about what Trump will do.

  29. 29
    Jinchi says:

    @gene108:

    I think it is working effectively with his base.

    It’s not so much ‘working’ as deeply entrenched in their psychology at this point.

  30. 30
    Yarrow says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Should have been clearer that his team that also has access to his Twitter account is part of doing that.

  31. 31
    germy says:

    “wealthcare bill”

    best description I’ve seen.

  32. 32
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Jesus, Joy Reid has some “equal rights advocate” talking about how Democrats, “we”, have to stop talking about black lives matter and gay rights, even though these things are important!, all those things Hillary Clinton talked about in her convention speech, and talk about jobs, that’s what we Democrats have to do. The only what-we-Democrats-have-to-do buzzword she missed is “bathrooms”.

    Here’s a word cloud of HRC’s convention speech. One of the biggest non-generic words (“country”, “people”, “america”) is “working”, in what looks like tier-two is a big “jobs”.

  33. 33
    debbie says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    I was listening to the New Yorker Radio Hour this morning. There was an interview with Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, an oncologist who helped with ACA and now (tries to) counsels Trump. He was asked what he thought about the Senate’s healthcare plan. He said it was “cruel.”

    I’m going to go with this when dealing with family members.

  34. 34
    WaterGirl says:

    I surely hope the pee tape isn’t as nonexistent as the whitey tape. That would be truly disappointing.

  35. 35
    OGLiberal says:

    This describes our situation perfectly:

    http://www.miamiherald.com/opi.....73023.html

    Andrew McCarthy, whom I despise…really despise, wrote recently in the National Review that opponents of Trump who argue about what’s illegal or legal are wasting their time. The only solution to Trump is political and depends on the GOP turning away from him. Not happening anytime soon. These people are either so certain they’ll win or so frightened of a primary challenge that Trump’s 36 percent approval rating – and who those 36 percent are – is enough. And can’t discount that there may be 2-4 percent who disapprove because he hasn’t yet had Clinton drawn and quartered in the public square. As somebody tweeted recently, the Constitution anticipated Trump – it did not anticipate a failed Electoral College and a Congress this compliant.

    If the Senate is voting, Mitch has the votes. Collins and Paul will get their hall pass – she from the “center”, he from the right. These people don’t care. McCain will come back from surgery provided by healthcare that many seniors soon may not have and happily vote yea despite his “concerns”.

    As Michael Che as Lester Holt said, “Absolutely nothing matters anymore.”

  36. 36
    Brachiator says:

    .I’m steeling myself for a family event later this month where I expect to encounter and argue with Trump supporters.

    I think this might be fun. For example. Trump promised to replace Obamacare with something better. Why has he abandoned that promise and left all the work to the Congress? Why is it that he has not provided any input, any framework, any guidance on healthcare reform?

    Trump claimed that world leaders did not respect Obama. But why is it that Merkel and other world leaders clearly and definitively rejected Trump’s position on climate change? Why is the clear world consensus that in Trump, the US has abandoned its role as world leader. Is this what really what you wanted or expected?

    Trump and his family bragged about their smarts, that they knew how to make deals. But Fox News pundits now claim that all these illegal Russian meetings happened because Team Trump are a bunch of amateurs, and we should forgive them because they don’t know the rules. Which is it? Are they bold new leadership or a bunch of dopes?

    Why does Trump love murderous dictators? Reagan didn’t?

    Oh, the fun that you can have.

  37. 37
    MomSense says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Twitter on the shitter!

    Wish I could take credit but I saw it in a tweet last night.

  38. 38
    Baud says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Who’s the bearded guy? He was good on the piece I saw.

  39. 39
    germy says:

    WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—An exuberant Betsy DeVos said on Monday that Donald J. Trump’s forty-per-cent approval rating is a “clear indication” that more than half the country agrees with the job he is doing.

    “I was so excited to see the President’s approval rating hit forty,” DeVos, the Secretary of Education, told reporters. “Just knowing that well more than half the country is with him gives us a great sense of confidence moving forward.”

    She also criticized the media for failing to report “our powerful forty-per-cent mandate.”

    “If you believed news reports, you would think that the people supporting the President are in the minority, when in fact they’re forty per cent,” she said.

    Concluding her remarks, DeVos offered defiant words to those who are “actively trying to thwart” Trump’s agenda. “To you critics out there who think you’re in the majority, I have some advice for you,” she said. “Do the math.”

  40. 40
    MJS says:

    My suggestion is to point out how poor living conditions are in Russia, and ask Trump supporters why they want that for America. Except I wouldn’t use those terms. I’d ask them why they want America to be a shit-hole like Russia is.

  41. 41
    Sloane Ranger says:

    Good luck Betty.

    There’s a story over at Raw Story that Trump the Dump has told Theresa May that he’s not coming to the UK until he’s guaranteed a warm welcome.

    According to the report May responded that we are not North Korea!

    It looks like the State Visit is off permanently as the only warm welcome he will get here would involve burning at the stake.

    Ah well, our loss (not)!

  42. 42
    Yarrow says:

    @father pussbucket: He will throw EVERYONE under the bus first. Anyone he knows has a connection to Russia, he’ll out them. Look how he at first didn’t support Don, Jr. If he won’t support his own family, he’s sure not going to support his staff. He has no loyalty, although he expects complete loyalty to him.

    It’s going to get ugly as hell as he tosses everyone under the bus and blames first this person and then that person. I don’t know if he’s going to stroke out from the pressure or they’ll find him huddled in a corner in the residence of the White House wearing a bathrobe, eating KFC and mumbling “fake news” over and over again as they drag him out.

  43. 43
    Baud says:

    Dear Betty,

    One suggestion. Wear a flag pin. U.S. Flag.

  44. 44
    Waspuppet says:

    My objective is to sow seeds of doubt, to communicate that they’ve been had, so as to suppress future turnout among people who are clearly too goddamned stupid to entrust with enfranchisement.

    This is important; it’s something they do to us and we never think to do to them. Just because WE don’t want a border wall, don’t want Obamacare to be repealed and don’t want tax cuts for the Goldman Sachs Cabinet, that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t express our fake sympathy that Trumpites have been had.

    “No wall? No Obamacare repeal? You must be really upset.”

  45. 45
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I swear, every day the New York Times publishes the same letter over different signatures. “The Democratic Party will never win again until it fully embraces the Bernie Sanders agenda.”

  46. 46
    Sentient AI from the Future says:

    @WaterGirl: I’m pretty lucky in that noone in my social or family circles is a trump voter. If I did have them, though, at this point I would be relentless in cracking jokes about having a bridge to sell, or waterfront property in Florida.

  47. 47
    Tracy Ratcliff says:

    @gene108: Not quite an answer, but NBC/Wall St Journal just dropped a poll of “Trump counties”, counties in which Trump outpaced Romney or flipped from Obama to Trump. The average is 50% approval, with “outpace” counties at 56% and “flip” counties at 44%.

  48. 48
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Brachiator:

    Those are good.

  49. 49
    A Ghost to Most says:

    Good luck with your get-together.

    My MAGAot family has been angling for a Colorado trip, to which I have been non-committal, at best.

  50. 50
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Joy Reid’s even-we-Democrats panelist is now nodding along with a human email from your crazy right wing uncle who says the real scandal is Hillary selling Putin uranium and Obama led from behind
    ETA: She’s a Democrat who understands the plight of the the American people, especially Fox News viewers, because she used to work at Fox News

    Good fucking god

    @Baud: Bald bearded guy is Kurt Eichenwald from Newsweek, dark-haired bearded guy is I think Dem politico from Miami

  51. 51
    West of the Rockies (been a while) says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Good point. And all those responses you list come from his fear, rage, narcissism… the lot of them in the administration are sweating. They’ve achieved their dream, but it’s turning into a nightmare.

    I hope it hurts Yertle the way it hurts a shy third grade boy to know he’s regarded by many as a chinless, loathsome taker. I hope Spicer feels humiliated by SNL, that Kushner knows he didn’t look cool in a flak jacket, that Eric knows he looks like a psycho, that Conway hears comparisons to The Crypt Keeper, that Trump knows he is bloated, a buffoon, and that death is flying ever closer to end his useless existence.

  52. 52
    Sentient AI from the Future says:

    @debbie: ugh. Zeke Emanuel is possibly the worst bioethicist on the planet. I frequently marvel at how he can be so consistently both wrong and full of shit.

    Stopped clock though, I guess.

  53. 53
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @ET: Carter had the support of +85% of his supporters and got blown out,.

  54. 54
    WaterGirl says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: My RSS reader tells me that there’s a new post up at the Washington Monthly called Trumpism: This Too Shall Pass?. It was a really quick read*. I would summarize it this way:

    ….one also wonders if a Democratic president who comes after Trump can possibly repair the damage the 45th Commander-in-Chief has inflicted.

    and 3 paragraphs of Sanders Sanders Sanders Sanders Sanders Sanders Sanders Sanders.

    Ugh. Bernie Sanders is the new Sarah Palin. They just will not let him fade into the oblivion he deserves. And I say this as someone who voted for him in the primary.

    edit: forgot to say that it was a *really quick read because I saw Sanders in a paragraph and glanced at the next paragraph and the next and it was all Sanders all the time. Close Tab. The End.

  55. 55
    Baud says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: The dark haired bearded guy. He had a good, clear riff on Trump a few minutes ago.

  56. 56
    Mnemosyne says:

    @West of the Rockies (been a while):

    The one thing I’ve found that kind of works is to make them explain their secret squirrel facts. Don’t argue, play dumb. Make them talk you through their entire crazy conspiracy theory. Nine times out of 10, they’re just parroting back something they heard and will realize how dumb and illogical it is if you can keep them on track and not let them wander off into what Hillary supposedly did.

  57. 57
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Jinchi:

    And in who’s universe is “deleting emails” comparable with colluding with a hostile foreign power?

    You have to ask?

  58. 58
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Sentient AI from the Future:

    Rahm’s brother.

  59. 59
    tobie says:

    @Betty Cracker: I agree. McConnell’s pushing this turd about as hard as he can because he knows if he fails the party will bear the one mark it fears more than anything else: being branded losers.

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: For all their bluster Trump supporters are scared. They see the wheels coming off the train and are trying desperately to defend it because it’s their cause but at some level they know their hero is incompetent and he’s destroying the country.

  60. 60
    Waspuppet says:

    @Yarrow: My bold prediction: Unless he dies in office (and maybe even then), Trump will at some point in his life say he never really wanted to be president.

    It won’t be like a confession, or like letting us in on the scam. It’ll be like a bratty pre-teen screaming “I didn’t ASK to be born!” before slamming his bedroom door.

    I also think there’s a small but non-zero chance he spends his post-presidential life (again, if there is one) in another country.

  61. 61
    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap says:

    @WaterGirl: How can he fade away when he’s actively maintaining his campaign? He’s already playing coy about 2020.

  62. 62
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @MomSense: So which of his sons is Tyrion Lannister?

    Barron is the shortest, I suppose…

  63. 63
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Sentient AI from the Future: I’ve scored a few points by deriding Trump as a real estate developer con man. That’s an archetype of evil that resonates with Floridians across the political spectrum. “Oh well, Uncle Tater, you’re not the first to fall for a real estate con man’s pie in the sky promises, only to get stiffed good and hard when he and his cronies run off with your money. Better luck next time!”

  64. 64
    Mike in NC says:

    Republican talking point is that nobody cares about the Trump-Russia connection. Move along. Must be because Trump is white and Putin is white, so it’s all cool. Panel of idiots debating this right now on MSNBC includes some shithead named Mark London.

  65. 65
    West of the Rockies (been a while) says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    If Trump(doesn’t)Care passes, it will take longer, but the rage of those losing coverage or paying more for shit coverage will lead to trouble for the GOP.

  66. 66
  67. 67
    Baud says:

    @WaterGirl: I don’t think he or his designee will get the nomination. It’s just a question of whether we can overcome the sore losers next time.

  68. 68
    Brachiator says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    .Jesus, Joy Reid has some “equal rights advocate” talking about how Democrats, “we”, have to stop talking about black lives matter and gay rights, even though these things are important!

    James Carville once told Bill Clinton, “it’s the economy, stupid.” That’s still true. You have to make that the focus, and connect everything else to it. The country is already more accepting of same sex marriage, so the Democrats need to build on this.

    Democrats used to be good at this.

  69. 69
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Yarrow:

    Should have been clearer that his team that also has access to his Twitter account is part of doing that.

    I’m not sure his team can look any further than his most recent tweet for which they are duty bound to engage in epic levels of obfuscation**.

    **2nd time today I got to use that word, must be my “word of the day”

  70. 70
    smintheus says:

    I think the best way to persuade trumptards away from their day-glo savior is just to call him a loser. The lizard brain has no affinity for losers.

  71. 71
    Sloane Ranger says:

    @germy: Please tell me this is satire. Because otherwise this innumerate woman is in charge of education!

    US science is doomed!

  72. 72
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Sloane Ranger:

    It’s satire — Andy Borowitz is a political humor columnist for the New Yorker.

  73. 73
    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap says:

    @Doug R: How do you figure that? You think the Dems are going to take back the House and the Senate and get rid of him? Not happening. What possible situation other than health removes him before his term is up?

  74. 74
    germy says:

    @Sloane Ranger: Satire, but she IS that stupid.

  75. 75
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @debbie: Just don’t use the word “punitive”. They like that word because they don’t think it ever applies to them.

  76. 76
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Waspuppet: That’s my question, how do you sow seeds of doubt? Asking if they are disappointed with the lack of progress on their pet causes might do it.

    Any other tips? I know from bitter experience that facts and logic don’t work.

  77. 77
    Baud says:

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: I suggest stop trying to predict the future.

  78. 78

    @zhena gogolia: I was talking to a friend of mine who was a Sanders precinct captain, though she later supported Clinton. She went off on how bad Stein voters were because they allowed Trump to win and then was all excited about hearing Sanders speak some time soon. She was shocked when I said I blamed him for some of those Stein votes.

  79. 79
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @germy: High school drop outs are smarter than her.

  80. 80
    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap says:

    @Baud: Meh feeling very pessimistic.

  81. 81
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @WaterGirl: I’ve gotten a bit away from reading the Washington Monthly blog, but my recollection is that Nancy LeTourneau and Martin Longman are really good, and their weekend crew, Tucker and Atkins, are pretty much our two initial troll and Dwight: “Democrats are the real problem!”

  82. 82
    Emma says:

    I have been reading some but not commenting much, party because of personal issues but partly because I am so tired of the negativity. At this point, someone is going to start recommending mass suicide as protest events. Fatalism is a creeping disease, and I think we’re all being infected. I certainly am. But it’s also debilitating and I (we) can’t afford that. One way or another, whatever happens, we have to survive this.

  83. 83
    Sloane Ranger says:

    Jodie Whitaker is the new Doctor. Just announced on the BBC.

  84. 84
  85. 85
    Baud says:

    @Iowa Old Lady: My guess is that something like 75% of Democrats don’t even know of the conflict.

  86. 86
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: An upside down US flag pin.

  87. 87
    debit says:

    My strategy for dealing with Trump supporters online is simply to respond to them “Traitor.” That’s it. I don’t engage with them in real life.

  88. 88
    smintheus says:

    @OGLiberal:

    As somebody tweeted recently, the Constitution anticipated Trump – it did not anticipate a failed Electoral College and a Congress this compliant.

    The Constitution didn’t anticipate political parties, just as my 18th century stone house didn’t anticipate air-conditioning…or global warming.

  89. 89
    WaterGirl says:

    @Betty Cracker: I love you, Betty!

  90. 90
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Brachiator: Hillary Clinton talked about jobs and the economy and the middle class all the fuckign time. People didn’t want to hear it, didn’t want to listen to her, for a lot of reasons.

    I’ve got so many criticisms of Hillary Clinton somebody here once asked when I decided I hated her (I, personally, would take Hillary Clinton over her husband any day of the week and twice on Sunday), but you can’t honestly say she didn’t talk about jobs.

  91. 91
    Baud says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Hell no. Upright and proud. Reclaim that motherfucker from treasonous Putinites. Let them wear 🇷🇺.

    🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

  92. 92
    smintheus says:

    @Karen:

    ‘Somebody shoulda stopped us before we committed so much treason.’

  93. 93
    WaterGirl says:

    @Baud: I don’t think he/they will get the nomination, either. The question is how much harm they will do to the democratic candidate. Can the DNC not allow him to run as a Democrat? Because he clearly isn’t one.

  94. 94
    Yarrow says:

    @Waspuppet:

    My bold prediction: Unless he dies in office (and maybe even then), Trump will at some point in his life say he never really wanted to be president.

    It won’t be like a confession, or like letting us in on the scam. It’ll be like a bratty pre-teen screaming “I didn’t ASK to be born!” before slamming his bedroom door.

    I agree. He’s going to try that but it won’t work. He ran for president and he took the oath of office. At any point he could have stopped. He didn’t. It’ll be a last ditch effort from him.

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I’m not sure his team can look any further than his most recent tweet for which they are duty bound to engage in epic levels of obfuscation**.

    Trump’s not the only one who tweets from his Twitter account. It’s obvious from style that Dan Scavino does from time to time. Bannon has been clear about undermining the credibility of the press and it’s a Russian tactic as well, so they have help in amplifying the fake news hashtags.

    My point is that some of the Fake News stuff is a plan, maybe not so much by Trump but by those around him and Russia who owns him, to undermine people’s trust in the press so that when the real news about Trump’s treason comes out people will blame the news organizations not Trump.

    As for Trump himself, he’s not really smart enough to game this out. But he’s a puppet so he plays along all while thinking he’s controlling things.

  95. 95

    @Baud: That’s probably true. They certainly never heard of Stein.

  96. 96
    azlib says:

    McCain’s timing of his surgery is intriguing. I believe he is playing games with McConnell. Putting the vote off another week helps the opposition. McCain’s strategy seems to be to hope the bill never reaches the floor and he can avoid taking a formal vote. He may be trying to help Flake at this point in time. McCain has nothing to lose.

    Keep in mind AZ did expand Medicaid and while the Repubs do not really care about the poor, rolling back Medicaid will blow a big hole in the state budget and the hospitals are not happy about a rollback either since a lot of uninsured care will fall on their emergency rooms. The hospitals even agreed to pay a fee to help fund the program.

  97. 97

    @Baud: Agreed, everything T crew is doing is undermining the United States, isolating it and destroying its competitive advantage,

  98. 98
    WaterGirl says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Agree about Nancy and BooMan. DH Tucker had a good article earlier this week, and that stood out, possibly because it was better than most.

    Sadly, my RSS reader doesn’t show me the author’s name.

    edit: oh, ugh, you’re right. I just clicked to find out who wrote it – This one was by DH Tucker.

  99. 99
    Baud says:

    @WaterGirl: I don’t know. But if he runs for reelection as an independent, which I expect he will, I don’t think it will sit well with primary voters.

  100. 100
    GregB says:

    When dealing with Trumpies, find the best 5 points of his shitty behavior and pound them relentlessly.

    Whenever the say.. but Hillary or Obama, just say they aren’t president.

    Then return to hammering those points.

    One idea to hammer is that the Trump has made the GOP so unhinged that they are defending a thrice married, womanizing, pussy grabbing draft dodger.

    Repeat often.

  101. 101
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Ohio Mom: Use his own words to refute whatever argument they are pursuing. “He now says the wall will only need to 7-900 miles long.”

  102. 102
    Baud says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:
    @WaterGirl:

    I’m still a little mad at Booman that he let Steven D use his blog to peddle conspiracy theories about the California primary.

  103. 103
    WaterGirl says:

    @Sloane Ranger: I think I saw something about this being the last season of Doctor Who. Can that be right?

    I only know her as the mom whose kid was murdered on Broadchurch. She does a great job in that.

  104. 104
    Yarrow says:

    @Baud: Hell, yeah. Hey, Betty–maybe you can bring Russian flag pins for your family members to wear. When they protest you can then say, “It’s just a joke!” just like they do when caught being racists or misogynists. It’s not a joke.

  105. 105
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @azlib: He may be trying to help Flake at this point in time. McCain has nothing to lose.

    Good point on Flake, I would also argue helping Lindsey Graham stave off a Tea Bagger-cum-trumpian primary, which is why we may all need to do a go fund me for Susan Rice’s lawyers.

    ETA: @Baud: oy, I quit reading Booman when Long went to Monthly. Yeah, Steven D is Applejax blogger brother from another mother, prolix and purity-obsessed.

  106. 106
    WaterGirl says:

    @Iowa Old Lady: Wearing my old glasses because I still haven’t replaced the ones that broke. I read that as Satan, not Stein. But close enough!

  107. 107
    Sloane Ranger says:

    @Mnemosyne: Thank God!

  108. 108
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud:

    The practice has its origin in a distress signal; displaying a flag in this manner is “a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property”;

    I prefer to not lie.

  109. 109
    Schlemazel says:

    Would it be unkind to hope that Sen. McCain never returns to the Senate? That would stall the wealthcare bill a little longer

  110. 110
    Patricia Kayden says:

    My objective is to sow seeds of doubt, to communicate that they’ve been had

    Ask them how the hell Trump Care is better than the ACA? How is it beneficial to anyone outside of the 1% who will be getting huge tax cuts?
    Ask them beyond Republicans stealing a SCOUTS seat, what are Trump’s accomplishments here and abroad?

    The one individual I know personally who voted for Trump (a White woman who is a former co-worker) has been mum about him since his inauguration and his slide down into the rabbit hole. I believe she understands that there is no way she can defend him and appear rational at the same time.

  111. 111
    Baud says:

    @Schlemazel: A long convalescence is not too much to ask for.

  112. 112
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Yarrow: My point is sarcasm, taking a small truth and blowing it up out of all proportion to reality. It is my default setting. Sadly, in this day and age it can be hard to tell the difference..

  113. 113
    WaterGirl says:

    @Baud: Yeah, I never understood why he let Steven D post. I had no idea about the conspiracies, though, because as soon as I read the first sentence and it looks off, my eyes jump up and I see that it is Steven D and I quit reading. It’s been a long time though, is Steven D still there?

    I saw a post from Booman in the past couple of weeks where he says that it’s no surprise that his readership is dropping off, though I forget why he said it was no surprise. It was no surprise to me because he seemed to fall off the deep end before the election and lots of people in the comments jumped even before he did.

    edited first sentence for clarity.

  114. 114
    West of the Rockies (been a while) says:

    @Sloane Ranger:

    At least it’s not Johnny Whitaker.

  115. 115
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Schlemazel: Not really. You’re not saying why he’d never return so there’s that.

  116. 116
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Baud: I thought Sanders running for reelection to the senate as an independent was a done deal.

  117. 117
    Baud says:

    @WaterGirl: I used to read him as religiously as BJ. Even commented a couple of times. Not any more.

  118. 118
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Schlemazel: I hate John McCain’s guts and liver, but I”m sure the governor of Arizona can and might dig up worse. Of course he might appoint Cindy, which would probably be lateral move. “As you know, Chuck/Cokie/Doocey, as a Senator I always ask myself, what would my late husband, the war hero and POW John McCain….

  119. 119
    Karen says:

    @smintheus: it strikes me as really stupid to disparage the people charged with physical protection; the job of secret service isn’t to protect them from being idiots

  120. 120
    woodrowfan says:

    @Jinchi: she didn’t even actually “get the questions.” She got a memo with a list of possible questions on it.

  121. 121
    ding7777 says:

    As always, my goal won’t be to try to talk sense into them. Anyone who pulled the lever for that bigoted degenerate given what we knew on 11/8/16 is beyond the reach of reason or decency, and anyone who is still defending him given what we know now is a cultist.

    Do the people attending your family event read your blog postings?

  122. 122

    @Betty Cracker: As a senator not as President. Most BS supporters around me are Bernie’s age not the mythical young people that the media speaks of.

  123. 123
    GregB says:

    @Emma:

    I think people need to take heart.

    Trump is taking on water fast.

    The Russia investigation is slowly rolling towards him like lava.

    I had feared he would have been able to bury this shortly after taking office.

    The GOP coalition is buckling. Krauthammer, Rubin, Will…Shep Smith went Howard Beale the other day.

    Trump is flailing at GOP Governors, US intelligence, now the Secret Service.

    The Russia scandal us consuming his family.

    His business, his family business, his family name, all cracking and summer isn’t done yet.

  124. 124
    Schlemazel says:

    @Waspuppet:
    I am sure there is a homey dacha waiting for him

  125. 125
    Baud says:

    @Betty Cracker: I don’t know the official status. I don’t think it’s too late to change his mind if he wanted to. I do wonder what the Vermont Dem party will do. Apparently, Sanders has a Dem challenger!

  126. 126
    WaterGirl says:

    @Karen: Those were my two thoughts. Exactly. Trump has clearly never heard of the adage to not shit where he eats. First the intelligence community and now this. His demise can’t come fast enough.

  127. 127
    Oldgold says:

    Good thing this clown never offered my mom a lame excuse like this. I did at the age of 5 and never forgot it!

    Jay Sekulow, a member of President Donald Trump’s legal team, on Sunday aired a new defense for Donald Trump Jr.’s meeting with a Russian lawyer who promised him damaging information on Hillary Clinton: The Secret Service should not have “allowed these people in” to meet with Trump’s eldest son.

  128. 128
    Yarrow says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Okay. I guess it went right over my head. These days I kind of feel for comedy writers. The truth is crazy enough.

  129. 129
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: @Betty Cracker: That’s what I read. Don’t recall where, may have just been a comment here.

  130. 130
    Sloane Ranger says:

    @WaterGirl: I hadn’t heard that but it’s always a possibility. Viewing figures were down this season apparently. I think a lot will depend on responses to the new season.

    Still processing the news. Not sure what I think yet.

  131. 131
    Aleta says:

    Fake news, never happened and it’s Hilary’s fault.

  132. 132
    Yarrow says:

    @Oldgold:

    Jay Sekulow, a member of President Donald Trump’s legal team, on Sunday aired a new defense for Donald Trump Jr.’s meeting with a Russian lawyer who promised him damaging information on Hillary Clinton: The Secret Service should not have “allowed these people in” to meet with Trump’s eldest son.

    This is them flailing. They have no excuse.

  133. 133
    Schlemazel says:

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:
    He drags down Republican candidates. Flipping the House in 18 is critical (the Senate is out of reach I believe) and if the GOP no longer fears the wingnuts as much as they fear losing they will turn on him in a heartbeat.

  134. 134
    MomSense says:

    @WaterGirl: @Baud:

    He let somenof the commenters like our man in Portland take over the place and it became unreadable. I still read his posts but I never wade into the comments. Cannot believe that he didn’t vote for Clinton. I do not understand people who didn’t consider the consequences to the most vulnerable in our communities when they supposedly voted their consciences.

  135. 135
    debbie says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Except if I tell them they will learn the real meaning of punitive when they find themselves standing before St. Peter. ;)

  136. 136
    Neldob says:

    Make China Great Again.

  137. 137
    hovercraft says:

    Did anyone catch Ken Kurson, former editor of Jared’s New York Observer on CNN just now? According to him Twitler has many accomplishments that the media is ignoring in it’s obsession with this Russia business, the latest Uday episode is a complete nothing burger, they have been very transparent, yet the media won’t let it go. The media is obsessed with undoing the election, the democrats are irrelevant. He says the media is biased and he cites the NYTimes editorial page, specifically Bobo going out with a high school graduate and Gail Collins column rating Twitler’s kids.
    One would think that as a former “Editor”, he’d understand what and editorial is. SAD!

  138. 138
    Baud says:

    @MomSense:

    Cannot believe that he didn’t vote for Clinton.

    Booman or Steven D? Primary or general???

  139. 139
    Belafon says:

    @WaterGirl: it’s not the last season. That’s something people say every year.

  140. 140
    Belafon says:

    Duplicate

  141. 141
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Steven D was horrible. Almost as bad as WaMo weekender David Atkins, who is a thin-skinned abrasive dumbfuck with delusions of grandeur.

  142. 142
    Karen says:

    The new Dr Who is a woman!!! It is about time, makes me almost wish I had tv service here
    http://www.bbc.com/news/entert.....e=facebook

  143. 143
    debbie says:

    @Sentient AI from the Future:

    Even with what you say, and also being reminded that he’s Rahm’s brother, I still think “cruel” is a very good descriptor.

  144. 144
    Aleta says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: https://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessage/archives/2017/07/07/walters-advocate-for-the-homeless-to-challenge-sanders-for-senate-seat
    Svitavsky, who calls himself “a bona fide, strong, left-wing Christian liberal,” says he shares many of Sanders’ political views — if anything, he adds, “I’m more liberal than Bernie” — but he is no fan of Sanders’ conduct, calling him “a vicious politician. So many good words, but so arrogant.”

    Svitavsky says he was spurred to enter the political arena by the 2016 presidential campaign. “Bernie was very much responsible for Trump’s election,” he asserts. “I was amazed that Sanders wouldn’t do all that he could, once Hillary [Clinton] got the nomination, to elect Hillary over Trump, who would destroy all the things he supposedly believes in.”

    The 60-year-old Bridport resident has a history with Sanders that goes back to the senator’s days as Burlington mayor. In 1982, the then 24-year-old Svitavsky was a young social worker who helped to found Burlington’s first overnight homeless shelter — and in the process, found his own calling. “Before that, they were the faceless homeless,” he recalls. “Then they became John and Mary and Tim.

    “These people could be helped,” he continues. “They didn’t need to be so disrespected that they were thought not to be capable of helping themselves.”

    Svitavsky directed the Burlington Emergency Shelter, which refused entry to anyone drunk or on drugs, and required them to seek help or find work. By his account, his shelter ran into opposition from then-Burlington mayor Sanders, who was — again, by Svitavsky’s account — opposed to the Emergency Shelter’s stance against drugs and alcohol. The Sanders’ administration eventually set up a shelter called the Waystation, which placed no conditions on entry and resulted, according to Svitavsky, in an abrupt increase in the city’s homeless population.

  145. 145
    woodrowfan says:

    @MomSense: I do not understand people who didn’t consider the consequences to the most vulnerable in our communities when they supposedly voted their consciences.

    Their consciences only focus on themselves, not on how other people are affected! They are as much a narcissist as Trump

  146. 146
    Sentient AI from the Future says:

    @GregB: I would like to believe this, especially after reading excerpts of that Mona fucking Charen article at NR. Holy fuck, when you’ve lost her, you’re in deep shit.

  147. 147
    Schlemazel says:

    @Emma:
    I am in the same boat. The problem has been whether I read/comment or not the negativity is still with me. At this moment I do not see how we ever recover. Putin has ‘won’ in that he has brought the US down and we will have decades of turmoil even if the Dems magically took all three branches. While Putin has gotten his revenge his nextdoor neighbor, China has won and will control the world (or what is left of it) for the next century at least. It will not go well for us. The one bright note in all that is the fact we have fucked the environment to the point where 100s of millions will be dying over the next 100 years and, if it even survives what is to come, humanity will not look anything like it does today

  148. 148
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @WaterGirl: His comments were a viper pit of one-upping leftish craziness for years. It seemed like it was dominated by small-party European radical wannabes and then Davis X Machina yanking their chains.

  149. 149
    Brachiator says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    .Hillary Clinton talked about jobs and the economy and the middle class all the fuckign time. People didn’t want to hear it, didn’t want to listen to her, for a lot of reasons.

    I mostly agree. However, I am not interested in defending Hillary or revisiting the election. I am more interested in what Democrats should do going forward.

    Trump promised and still promises that people will get jobs like they used to have and that they will keep the jobs they currently have. This is an empty promise, but easier for people to imagine.

    If you talk about new glorious jobs in the solar industry, does this mean I have to move, will I have to take a pay cut, will I have to spend my own money on training before I can get a new job in the solar field?

  150. 150
    West of the Rockies (been a while) says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Still, it might be fun to watch her try

  151. 151
    sdhays says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yep. My own parents, who are liberals and voted for Hillary, said that they couldn’t understand why the Democrats weren’t talking about revitalization (they live in the Mid-West and they’ve seen how a once-thriving “large town” has collapsed into poverty – it’s really quite sad to see what’s happened to my hometown over the last 2 decades). When I told them that actually Hillary had detailed plans on the subject and talked about it all the time, they were surprised. While they do make an effort to follow the news, they were ill-informed because the media simply wouldn’t talk about boring policy.

  152. 152
    Yarrow says:

    @MomSense:

    I do not understand people who didn’t consider the consequences to the most vulnerable in our communities when they supposedly voted their consciences.

    Yep. This level of selfishness in the service of how special a snowflake they are as individuals just astounds me. Maybe it is somewhat understandable if someone is in a state that’s strongly blue or red, but in this election I don’t even give them that. This time it was about the fate of the country. Anyone with half a brain could see what was going on with Trump. It wasn’t hidden.

  153. 153
    woodrowfan says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Hillary Clinton talked about jobs and the economy and the middle class all the fuckign time. People didn’t want to hear it, didn’t want to listen to her, for a lot of reasons.

    AMEN! but the press was all EMAILS!!!!!

  154. 154
    Oldgold says:

    Bingo!

    Jeff Yarbro @yarbro
    The Constitution anticipates a President like this. It does not anticipate a Congress so indifferent to a President like this.

  155. 155
    hitchhiker says:

    I’ve adopted a long game strategy with the family Trump set. It involves shamelessly screwing with them. Goes like this:

    1. When the subject arises, calmly and happily ( a little sheepishly, even) pretend that I’ve always been a DT fan, or at least DT curious. This makes them scoff, but I just act as if anything I said before was just me being confused. I don’t let them talk details … just handwave and smile and say I don’t know why I ever thought that. This has the effect of lowering the temperature and making them wonder what I’m up to, but as long as I keep my placid demeanor, I’m golden. It’s a form of gaslighting. What? You thought I meant that? No, no, no, never!

    2. At the next gathering, and as time passes, continue to lie about what I think, but do it in such a way that it sounds like I’ve just discovered this one thing that seems a little tiny bit weird … it can be totally invented, but should be distanced from Trump himself. I heard that that guy — the one with the weird name, what is it, Preeb, Pleeb, something like that — was actually a Democrat. This is just me doing what they’ve taught us all, which is to make shit up.

    3. Keep playing. The way to plant doubt with people who are capable of thinking that Trump might be a good president has nothing to do with reality, and it’s a mistake to pretend it does. So, I’m trying to meet them where they live, in lala land, a place of supreme indifference to everything I care about.

    4. Create more and reasons for them to believe they’ve been had, but not ones that they’ve already seen debunked in their crackpot media. Lament the slowness of everything and blame the system … suggest that it’s pointless to vote at all.

    It may not have any effect, but at least I’m enjoying myself and not going bonkers trying to teach a dog to make scrambled eggs.

  156. 156
    MomSense says:

    @Belafon:

    Booman. Both.

  157. 157
    Brachiator says:

    @Schlemazel:

    ..At this moment I do not see how we ever recover. Putin has ‘won’ in that he has brought the US down and we will have decades of turmoil even if the Dems magically took all three branches.

    Putin is not a magic man and has his own problems. He has to keep his oligarchs happy. And he has similar Trump problems. The average Russian expects Putin to deliver, but his flashy deals have not amounted to much. Not to many major development deals have come through. And these aren’t the old days of Communism. The Chinese are competing with the Russians. They are not always buddies.

    A great deal of the problems that Putin has caused could be undone if the Republicans would get their heads out of their asses.

    The situation is tough, but it ain’t hopeless.

  158. 158
    Baud says:

    @sdhays: I swear that one of the criticisms i heard of her campaign was that she was too policy oriented and wasn’t thematic enough.

  159. 159
    Schlemazel says:

    @woodrowfan:
    I think many are just naive, they honestly thought that hair furor had no chance of winning so their vote for BS/JS did not matter. First rule of politics: never ever believe it is in the bag and you can take the day off

  160. 160
    Aleta says:

    From April through June, Sanders’ Senate reelection campaign raised nearly $1.3 million — almost entirely in donations of less than $100. It spent a little over $200,000, so the Sanders war chest continued to grow.

    In fact, Sanders’ cash-on-hand totaled nearly $4.9 million as of June 30.

    That’s got to be a chilling number for any Republican considering a run for U.S. Senate. Sanders, who faces reelection to a third six-year term in 2018, already has an insurmountable lead in fundraising — and he can seemingly produce millions more with a snap of his fingers.

    A significant portion of Sanders’ second-quarter spending was directed toward travel and events, which makes sense considering Sanders’ frequent trips around the country for speeches and rallies. During the three-month period, the campaign spent $34,000 on airplane tickets alone.

    The self-described independent also donated $100,000 in May to the Democratic National Committee, according to his FEC report.

    https://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessage/archives/2017/07/16/walters-bernie-sanders-reports-49-million-campaign-war-chest

  161. 161
    West of the Rockies (been a while) says:

    @Sentient AI from the Future:

    I’d read that piece. I wonder what NR founder Buckley would make of Trump.

  162. 162
    Baud says:

    @MomSense: Not that I don’t trust you, but so you have proof? Not voting for Hillary in the general crosses a red line with me. If Booman did that, then I know never to care about what he has to say ever again.

  163. 163
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @sdhays: Jon Favreau, O speech writer, talked about meeting some friends of his fiancee, one of whom– a college-educated, thirty-ish, two-time Obama voter– asked him about some goofball HRC conspiracy theory as if it were true. I wish I could remember which one, but it was more right-wing than Wilmerite, IIRC.

  164. 164
    sdhays says:

    @Brachiator:

    Trump promised and still promises that people will get jobs like they used to have and that they will keep the jobs they currently have. This is an empty promise, but easier for people to imagine.

    Democrats don’t make these blanket promises because they’re empty and they fear a backlash over broken promises. If Trump and the Republicans can lie about this and the people voting for them decide that they haven’t been betrayed, I don’t know how any Democratic messaging strategy can fix that. Reality has to mean something.

  165. 165
    Schlemazel says:

    @sdhays:
    Because they are not liars? How, exactly, would you revitalize the Midwest? The factory work is never coming back. Farming has moved to massive automated juggernauts. Local stores were eaten by WalMart. What magic is going to make things better? The GOP has no solutions but they lie and claim the do (clean coal!, fracking!!). I guess we just need to bullshit voters into believing in miracles too.

  166. 166
    Amir Khalid says:

    I mentioned yesterday that the Republican party wasn’t going to abandon Trump until he became an immediate danger to it. In addition to that, Trump can afford to disregard his shitty polling numbers, at least for now; it’s the House and one-third of the Senate who will face an election next year, not he.

    As for a 2020 presidential candidate from the Democratic party, I reckon that first of all you got to look at preparedness for the job. “Is He Ready For The Job?” is always a good question about anyone running for POTUS. Wilmer showed he wasn’t prepared, despite his support among younger people. Trump believed he was too awesome to need preparation, and we see the consequences of tthat every day. Demand that every Democratic candidate show their work. After all, they are running for the biggest executive job in the world.

  167. 167
    tobie says:

    @Aleta: Somehow my first association reading this was of the medical fund Walter White’s son sets up for him in Breaking Bad but which actually served to launder money. All small contributions.

  168. 168
    Yarrow says:

    @West of the Rockies (been a while):

    I wonder what NR founder Buckley would make of Trump.

    Probably love him. Racists gonna racist.

  169. 169
    sdhays says:

    @Baud: They talked about her “theme” of “boring policy” and neglected what that boring policy actually was.

  170. 170
    MomSense says:

    @Baud:

    I’ll have to go back and check but he wrote about it following the election.

  171. 171
    Baud says:

    @MomSense: Thanks. That is unforgivable.

  172. 172
    Schlemazel says:

    @Brachiator:
    But the damage has been done, he has his revenge for the fall of the USSR. If he were executed tomorrow by the Russian mob tiny hands is still in the WHite House, millions of Americans will still be manipulated by the propaganda machine he set up in the US. He has already ‘won’. He is just too short sighted to see what that victory means.

    It is never hopeless but until I hear some actual plans with actual potential for success I will remain doubtful. The damage has already been done, we may recover but it won’t be within my lifetime or that of my children

    EDIT: BTW – that does not mean give up, it means we have to fight harder. We cannot recover until those people are gone, or such a minority as to be ineffective. I will not go down until I have spent every effort to stop those people

  173. 173
    sdhays says:

    @Schlemazel: My point was that Hillary did identify that this is a problem, had constructive ideas on this, and talked about it quite a bit, but no one knows that because the media considers this stuff boring and unimportant.

  174. 174
    Yarrow says:

    @Schlemazel:

    At this moment I do not see how we ever recover. Putin has ‘won’ in that he has brought the US down and we will have decades of turmoil even if the Dems magically took all three branches

    Things happen fast. Remember when the Republicans were doomed and never coming back to power? I do agree with you that when all this stuff comes out in the open it’s going to upend our political system. It will take a strong leader who is willing to work on a bunch of angles to fix a lot of the problems.

  175. 175
    Doug R says:

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: The special elections in “safe” seats lost around 12 points, and he’s at 36% and that’s 6 months in. House is flipping, Senate may but it will still be close. If Senate doesn’t go for impeachment, he could still resign, drop out for “health” issues. Worst case, we can lock down their crazy then until 2020.
    Even now with all branches they’re having trouble getting shit passed.

  176. 176
    Baud says:

    @Yarrow:

    It will take a strong leader who is willing to work on a bunch of angles to fix a lot of the problems.

    The choice is clear.

  177. 177
    Brachiator says:

    @Sloane Ranger:

    .Jodie Whitaker is the new Doctor. Just announced on the BBC.

    Still not a ginger. But freaking cool!

  178. 178
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Schlemazel: Because they are not liars? How, exactly, would you revitalize the Midwest?

    Not a complete solution, but Vox had an interesting (to me) proposal about relocating some large gov’t agencies out of DC, along the lines of the CDC in Atlanta

    of course, that would open up the Senate and House to some huge fights about who gets what

  179. 179
    Baud says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Funny. Robert Byrd used to do that for West Virginia. The Village made fun of him for it.

  180. 180
    Kay says:

    Peter Sullivan‏ @PeterSullivan4 14m14 minutes ago
    Alaska Medicaid chief warns expansion would end for the state in 2020, says she “camped out” in Murkowski’s office

    I’ll continue to call my Senator but at some point the people who receive Medicaid are going to have to step up and stop voting for these people.

    They don’t even have to vote for the Democrat. Just stop adding +1 to GOP congressional campaigns. This isn’t going to work- they can’t ask one group of voters to protect the programs they receive because they want to make some political statement about how they hate libtards so want to continue backing Republicans. It’s fucking childish, idiotic and self-indulgent.

    The moderates will fold. They always do.

  181. 181
    Brachiator says:

    @Schlemazel:

    . The damage has already been done, we may recover but it won’t be within my lifetime or that of my children

    I don’t agree. Putin is not the bogeyman. But even if he were, I believe in John Wick, the guy you hire to kill the fucking bogeyman.

  182. 182
    Yarrow says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: That’s actually a great proposal. But, you know, government jobs aren’t real jobs, so….

  183. 183
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Brachiator: I don’t supposed it has dawned on Trump’s dim-witted supporters yet, but he has transitioned seamlessly from talking about economic carnage, heartland desolation, etc., to tweeting bullshit like this:

    He’s coasting on the Obama economy, but now he’s taking credit for it instead of undermining it. Now, when low unemployment numbers come out, it isn’t “fake” but instead evidence that the Trump plan is working (never mind that he’s passed fuck-all of substance since taking office).

    Trump’s cultists will call the streams of piss falling on their heads rain, but I’m hopeful that at least some of the unaffiliated will get wise to the scam. We’ll see.

  184. 184
    Schlemazel says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:
    My experience with NASA taught me that these things become giant welfare projects for the local Congressman. Spread across 42 locations in 30 states does not make for an efficient or effective organization. OTOH, it could be just the thing, sort of a guaranteed income program. Gonna be hard to pay for if everyone works for the government though.

  185. 185
    Yarrow says:

    @Kay: It’s not a political statement; it’s racism. They are voting their self-interest in voting for politicians that will keep the non-white people down. Figure out how to counter that and you’ve got a winner. Logic doesn’t work on the hate brain.

  186. 186
    Baud says:

    @Betty Cracker: The Obama economy is the only thing keeping his approval rating above 27%.

  187. 187
    Baud says:

    @Schlemazel: The military has been successful with such a strategy.

  188. 188
    Schlemazel says:

    @Brachiator:
    see my earlier response. He already has deeply damaged the US and it will take years to undo the damage. He built (with a lot of help from assholes like Dimbart and many others) a propaganda network that will live long after him. Don’t focus on Putin, he has already done what he set out to do and is no longer needed for the continued destruction of the US

  189. 189
    Brachiator says:

    @Schlemazel:

    ..Because they are not liars? How, exactly, would you revitalize the Midwest? The factory work is never coming back. Farming has moved to massive automated juggernauts. Local stores were eaten by WalMart. What magic is going to make things better? The GOP has no solutions but they lie and claim the do (clean coal!, fracking!!).

    These are some damn good questions. And you know what? The Democrats need to paste these, and more on a board, and come up with some good answers. And the answers can’t be infrastructure, job training, or other vague crap.

    I believe the Democrats can do it. If not, they deserve to lose.

    ..

  190. 190
    Sentient AI from the Future says:

    @West of the Rockies (been a while): “well he’s certainly racist enough, no doubt about that. There’s some other stuff I’m not as sold on though…”

  191. 191
    Baud says:

    @Brachiator: The answers can’t be the answers???

    And if we deserve to lose, I hope we take some folks down with us.

  192. 192
    Schlemazel says:

    @Baud:
    and look what a bloated carcass that is! It might be the only way to go but I am not seeing how to pay for it yet.

  193. 193

    @sdhays: Yeah, it was all horse race all the time.

  194. 194
    Emma says:

    @Schlemazel: I understand what you’re saying but… I know you’re a student of history. Look back and see how often “everyone knew” an outcome that NEVER HAPPENED. We can only grab onto a goal and steer towards it no matter what.

  195. 195
    Aimai says:

    @Baud: yup. I took it off my blogtoll over that–and Boomans general misogyny. Maybe you have to be a woman to notice it but booman had an extreme antipathy towards some politucal women and to the distraction that is womens issues.

  196. 196
    eclare says:

    @JMG: And be sure to add at least one “Bless your heart, you were tricked”….Good luck!

  197. 197
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Kay: Agree. If this horrible Trumpcare abomination passes, it’ll be bad for everyone, but could it serve as a clue-by-four upside the heads of the dole-dependent, austerity-enabling idiots? Probably not, “idiots” being the operative word and all. We could be doomed to replicate the Kansas experiment on a national scale.

  198. 198
    frosty says:

    @Baud: And make sure the flag pin you’re wearing is right side up.

  199. 199
    sdhays says:

    @Baud: Booman voted for Sanders in the primary, but he was definitely not talking like someone who was going to risk not voting for Hillary in Pennsylvania. I took a mental health break from politics following the election catastrophe, but this from Nov 11 sure doesn’t sound like someone who didn’t vote for Hillary. Maybe we’re getting the primary and general election confused?

  200. 200
    Kay says:

    Pence was out lying about Medicaid yesterday and he said Medicaid will be protected for those who truly need it or something like that. All Republicans use this weasel code language when they’re reassuring the base that the government programs the base relies upon will be unaffected.

    Every GOP voter is thinking “yeah! people who deserve it! like me!” – Pence knows this.

    This is a conceit these voters cannot continue to indulge. This idea they have that other people will get screwed so that means more for them has reached the end of the road. They’ve run that thing as far as it will go. They’re going to get hurt now and they voted for it.

  201. 201
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @West of the Rockies (been a while):

    Is physically threatening them off the table?

  202. 202

    @Brachiator: One of the things I’m horrified by is the loss of expertise in govt departments. Think of State or Justice or HHS or Education. Building that up takes years.

  203. 203
    Schlemazel says:

    @Brachiator:
    Agreed! I have run this through my mind a thousand times and come up dry. It will take people smarter than me (not hard) to offer real answers. I always end up with programs like minimum guaranteed income but there is the little problem of where does the money come from? Billionaires don’t pay taxes, corporations are fleeing to tax havens so what can the government do to make money?

    I have ideas there like, patent the discoveries made by NASA, DoD, CDC and sell them instead of giving them away. But I am not sure how much that would generate

  204. 204
    Baud says:

    @Aimai:

    the distraction that is womens issues.

    You and your identity politics…

    @sdhays: That would be good to pin down. It really is a red line for me.

  205. 205
    Brachiator says:

    @Schlemazel:

    .see my earlier response. He already has deeply damaged the US and it will take years to undo the damage.

    I said before, and say again that I don’t agree with you. You give Putin more power than he really has. Your damage assessment is not based on available facts. Your “years to undo stuff” is a function of your pessimism, not reality.

    I think the larger problem to democracy has come from within, from voters who seem to want an authoritarian, and who want to wallow in fear and hatred.

    But we can choose to do better. Maybe we will. Maybe we won’t. I don’t think it’s too late yet.

    Again, I hear everything you have said. I appreciate you taking the time to clearly lay out your views. But I do not agree.

  206. 206
    Yarrow says:

    @Schlemazel: I would say the cracks were there and Trump took advantage of them as did Putin. No foreign government made us hollow out our middle class over the last 30-40 years, for instance. There are a lot of examples of divisions in our society. The Russians used propaganda techniques from the KGB to target our already existing divisions and make them larger.

    Trump didn’t start the propaganda network. It was in existence when he stepped into the race. He took advantage of it and got a big assist from the Kremlin. But our society was ripe for the picking. Our government has not been serving us for decades. It’s time for that to change.

  207. 207
    artem1s says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    don’t let them deflect the question in whatabouttery and change the damn topic.

    Yes, this. I would add that every one of those ‘whatabouteries’ was invented by the GOP to keep Cult45 distracted while they stole their health care, homes, medicaid, social security, pensions, and their children’s and grandchildren’s lives when they start up their next wag-the-dog war to deflect from the massive deficits and plummeting stock market.

    these tools have been used against dems precisely because the GOP knows they work on their dumb rube base.

  208. 208
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:

    @OGLiberal: “Then the Emperor has already won…” I got no time for that lack of imagination.

  209. 209
    MomSense says:

    @sdhays:

    Maybe we are confusing the two votes but I remember him writing something about why he didn’t vote for her.

  210. 210
    p.a. says:

    Sow seeds of doubt? On cement? Good luck with that. I reached the stage of calling them morons to their faces. The invites dropped off considerably after that. Oh well…

  211. 211
    Schlemazel says:

    @Emma:
    That is why I say never give up. I am not saying things will never change, they will. The problem is what will change & what it will take to change for the better. The Civil War didn’t last forever but it was required to get through it to save the nation and the outcome was not what it should have been as we are still fighting that war today (and losing recently) because people didn’t continue fighting for what was right once the shooting stopped.

  212. 212
    frosty says:

    @WaterGirl: The WaMo story is by D.R. Tucker, one of their weekend writers. Supporting Sanders and dissing the Democratic Party ‘s his consistent schtick. I quit reading him, since there was no new news there.

  213. 213
    dww44 says:

    @MomSense: I read Booman regularly. I thought he said that he supported Sanders in the primary but voted Clinton in the general. I could be mis-remembering.

    Some of his commenters these days don’t seem to agree with his take on Russiagate. He believes it’s the real deal and collusion has been demonstrated. His strangest commenter is taking the opposite tactic and has accused Booman of going off the rails on the Russia issue.and having sold out to the IC.

  214. 214
    sdhays says:

    @Baud: Me too. If he didn’t vote for Hillary in the general election, especially in Pennsylvania…

    I already read him less than I used to, but if he actually didn’t vote for Hillary in the general election, I’m done.

  215. 215
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Baud: She was “overprepared”, according to the Typhoid-Mary analog for Broderism, Chuckles the Toddler.

  216. 216
    sdhays says:

    @MomSense: I remember he did write about not voting for her in the primary. A quick look didn’t surface anything like that for the general.

  217. 217
    Aleta says:

    Since I’ve mentioned (independent) Seven Days Vt:
    I started reading it because of Alison Bechdel. Since the election she’s drawn a few new cartoon strips of the DTWOF (Dykes to Watch Out For) characters. (Seems they would not be quiet, even though they were sort of retired a few years ago from new public appearances.)

    Her latest strip is here: https://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/dykes-ponders-how-to-unify-a-divided-country/Content?oid=6581946

    Two other post-election ones:
    Nov 23, from Seven Days Vermont

    March 14, from Seven Days Vermont

  218. 218
    Schlemazel says:

    @Iowa Old Lady:
    and that is exactly why, even if the Dems own all 3 branches in 2020 it will be years repairing the damage. First qualified people will need to be found & placed & then years will be spent ferreting out the leftover bastards that have accumulated over 40 years of mostly Republican maladministration.

    People thought BHO was a magic man & simply putting him in the White House would fix everything. Nobody could have done that even if they had the full support of both Houses (which he didn’t & that led to the 2010 debacle). Whoever follows this wrecking crew has 10 times the work ahead of them and people better understand nothing will get fixed overnight

  219. 219
    MomSense says:

    @sdhays:

    I seem to remember something after the election. December maybe?

  220. 220
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: @Baud: She was “overprepared”, according to the Typhoid-Mary analog for Broderism, Chuckles the Toddler.

    if she talked about policy, she was robotic and couldn’t connect to people, if she tried to make a joke, she was phony, if she mentioned her grandchildren, she was using them….

  221. 221
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Aleta: DTWOF! Thanks so much for the link. A lot of truth there.

  222. 222
    Brachiator says:

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    @Schlemazel:

    .One of the things I’m horrified by is the loss of expertise in govt departments. Think of State or Justice or HHS or Education. Building that up takes years.

    I don’t like to invoke FDR because it can be too glib. But reacting to the Great Depression took a lot of experimentation. They didn’t come with a bag of tricks that they could easily reach into and pull out a quick solution.

    There’s a lot of expertise to rebuild, but also a lot of deadwood to clear out.

    Between Bush and Trump there has been a disdain for intelligence and new ideas. Obama tried to reverse that. There is a lot of stifled veteran expertise out there and a lot of new people with new ideas to be cultivated.

  223. 223
    MomSense says:

    I found the link I was thinking of and I think it’s unclear. At one point he says he didn’t vote for her which could mean just the primary and at another point he says he was a good soldier. Sounds like he probably voted for her in the general.

    What I Did Wrong

  224. 224
    TriassicSands says:

    @Kay:

    Medicaid will be protected for those who truly need it…

    Yes, like it was in a state like Mississippi (Is there anyplace like Mississippi?) before the ACA. First, in many, if not most states, if you were a single male, it didn’t matter how poor you were, you were deemed not needy enough. But for women the income cut-off was something like $3,000 a year, I believe, in Mississippi. So, if you were living the good life on $300 a month, you could just buy yourself a great private policy — you know, low or zero copays and deductibles, no lifetime cap, etc. — and keep on partying on the Riviera.

    I don’t know how people like Pence (i.e., the entire Republican Party) can live with themselves. I just can’t imagine what not having a conscience is like.

  225. 225
    Steeplejack says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Also, Wall Street is not Main Street. Ordinary people don’t see immediate benefit from stock market gains.

  226. 226
    frosty says:

    @Schlemazel: Booman’s idea for revitalizing rural areas is to return to TR’s trustbusting. Walmart broke small towns because it was legal to do so and keep getting larger with no limit. Finding a way to make owning and operating small businesses feasible again would help. I have no idea if it can be done.

  227. 227
    randy khan says:

    I have to say I laughed at “almost 40 percent.” The guy can’t even count.

  228. 228
    joel hanes says:

    @debbie:

    share

    “Yeah, I like Trump”

    [In the same tone as if they had announced that a friend has stage 4 lung cancer]
    “What a shame. I’m sorry to hear that.”

    And then drop it completely.

    BTW, this technique works (as well as anything does) on children who use won’t-eat-that in control struggles:
    “I don’t like fish. Ick.”
    “What a shame. I’m sorry to hear that.”

  229. 229
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @frosty: People in small towns… shop at Walmart. They think the kinds of people who object to Walmart think they’re better than them. I think undoing Walmart-ization is politically extremely difficult.

  230. 230
    WaterGirl says:

    @MomSense: Booman didn’t vote for clinton??? I had stopped reading before i knew y=that, i guess.

  231. 231
    WaterGirl says:

    @Belafon: okay. I thought I had seen that on TV when they (appeared to be) saying it was the last season not just for Orphan Black and Doctor Who. But maybe i misunderstood.

  232. 232
    MomSense says:

    @WaterGirl:

    I think he did. Not sure. I found the post that I remembered and it is a bit unclear.

  233. 233
    WaterGirl says:

    @Baud: I was just about to write that. How could I ever look to BooMan for analysis or strategy again?

  234. 234
    WaterGirl says:

    @MomSense: I may still have to deal with my family who voted for Trump, or didn’t vote, or voted 3rd party, but I certainly don’t have to support a blogger who did the same. If Booman didn’t vote for Clinton in the general, that would be it for me with Booman Tribune, so i thought this was important enough to just ask him outright if he had said that

    I just left a comment on the latest Booman thread saying I had been away, had heard that and was wondering if he indeed had said that or if perhaps someone was thinking about the primary rather than the general election. Will come back here and post the answer.

  235. 235
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I hate this particular argument. Let’s win by pretending to be who we are not or, still worse, abandoning our principles. Even if we did win -and I doubt this is a winning formula for us- at what cost? Leave such shenanigans to the GOP who have no conscience to worry about anyway.

  236. 236
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Sloane Ranger:

    It is a satire. But unfortunately, that does not answer the question of whether Betsy DeVos is innumerate

  237. 237
    glory b says:

    @debbie: ‘ I’m steeling myself for a family event later this month where I expect to encounter and argue with Trump supporters.”

    “Betty, I do hope you’ll share your techniques for those of us in the same horrible boat.”

    Once again, I invite allof you in this situation to get adopted by a black family. Almost any black female over the age of 65 will invite you for a holiday if she thinks you’ll be alone.

    I invite you again to read the Caucasian guides to black cookouts, Thanksgiving, church services and Christmas and you’ll be fine.

    Just remember that big mama doesn’t eat just anybody’s potato salad.

  238. 238
    TriassicSands says:

    @WaterGirl:

    I did a quick check and Booman wrote this on November 8, 2016

    At some point, we have to face up to the fact that the Republican Party is broken and is responsible for breaking this country. Hillary Clinton is doing her part by defeating them, but she shouldn’t enter office with the responsibility all on her shoulders for getting her rabid political opponents to behave in a rational country-first bipartisan manner.

    I don’t see how he could have written that and not voted for HRC.

  239. 239
    J R in WV says:

    @Baud:

    I just saw somewhere on the Internet this morning that there are 9 major Army bases in the US named for Civil War Heroes – Confederate ones!! Quite a list it was! Mostly in the CSA states, of course, but not all of them.

  240. 240
    Yoda Dog says:

    Coming in late to the thread but good luck, Betty.

    Most of my whole extended family are trump cultists and its just a constant fountain of sorrow for me. Engaging or ignoring the problem feels equally futile.

  241. 241
    Gretchen says:

    Local paper urged Sen. Moran of Kansas to vote against Trumpcare because rural hospitals say it will force them to close. He’s been doing townhalls with large turnout opposed to the bill.

  242. 242
    WaterGirl says:

    BooMan’s reply to my question about voting in the general election:

    Re: Serious Question (none / 0)
    I voted for Bernie in the primary and Hillary on Election Day.

    “Walk into splintered sunlight. Inch your way through dead dreams to another land.” -Robert Hunter
    by BooMan on Sun Jul 16th, 2017 at 02:46:36 PM EST
    [ Parent | Reply to This | ]

  243. 243
    WaterGirl says:

    @MomSense: @Baud: BooMan voted for Hillary in the General. See comment directly above this one.

    Just wanted to close the loop.

  244. 244
    WaterGirl says:

    @TriassicSands: And you were right!

  245. 245
    Gretchen says:

    @Betty Cracker: Kansas learned from the Kansas experiment and voted a bunch of moderates in last election. Busy Dem primary for the governor’s race next year.

  246. 246
    MCA1 says:

    @Betty Cracker: Not only that, but he’s hurrah’ing about the approval being expressed to him by a bunch of executives at a fucking professional golf tournament. In other words, the exact people who’ve made out like bandits in the New Gilded Age while leaving everyone else behind. They’re the ones who love the stock market climbing. WWC real ‘murka don’t got no 401k, much less no goddamn IRA or individually traded accounts or any of them stock option things.

    The degree of his betrayal of his base is rivaled only by its predictability.

  247. 247
    Baud says:

    @WaterGirl:

    Oh wow. You didn’t just keep on guessing. How anti-internet. Thanks, WG.

  248. 248
    WaterGirl says:

    @Baud: I guess I wasn’t raised right. :-)

  249. 249
    TriassicSands says:

    @Gretchen:

    Kansas learned from the Kansas experiment and voted a bunch of moderates in last election.

    The use of the word moderate in describing Republicans is an iffy proposition. Given what has happened to the Party — its descent into wholesale idiocy and undemocratic madness — it is possible to be considered a “moderate” Republican and still be a complete disaster. I’m not familiar with the Kansas “moderates,” but I’d have to know a lot more about them apart from they voted to undo some of Brownback’s trainwreck to believe they qualify as deserving to be called moderate. Measured against Brownback it isn’t hard to look moderate.

    I saw a copy of “What’s the Matter with Kansas” for sale at my local library the other day (HBs are a dollar; Paperbacks are $.50). I almost grabbed it to see how it reads years later after the Brownback revolution. Alas, I didn’t have an money on me at all.

  250. 250
    TriassicSands says:

    @WaterGirl:

    You got definite proof. That’s good.

    There’s a big difference between preferring Sanders to Clinton and not voting for HRC in the general.

  251. 251
    Lurking Canadian says:

    @TriassicSands: Kansas would do well to find some Republicans who understand that two is greater than one. They seem to have a real problem with math

  252. 252
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @Baud:

    Hell no. Upright and proud. Reclaim that motherfucker from treasonous Putinites. Let them wear 🇷🇺.

    Hear, hear! I’ve started flying the American flag – on patriotic holidays, at least – exactly with the intention to reclaim our national symbols for those like us who actually care about our country.

  253. 253
    Ruckus says:

    @FlipYrWhig:
    You have to also remember that in small towns there usually wasn’t much choice. Maybe one furniture store, a couple small markets, a pharmacy/drug store and prices were higher than the cities because they didn’t sell enough at city prices to make the profit they were looking for. I’ve worked events in towns like that, when the circus comes to town the local stores have to stock up way past what they normally sell. Walmart may be all the bad things we think they are (and they are!) but for a small town, getting a Walmart is a huge deal. Yes it runs local business out, but it replaces those jobs with more. Sure they are crap jobs but a crap job is better than no job.

  254. 254
    TriassicSands says:

    @Ruckus:

    Yes it runs local business out, but it replaces those jobs with more. Sure they are crap jobs but a crap job is better than no job.

    I’m not going to defend Walmart (I opposed their coming to my town, but they’re here.), but I’m not sure that the small “mom and pop” businesses that Walmart put out of business had good or better wages than Walmart does. It’s more about atmosphere, service, and the fact that Walmart can afford to do much better than they do and they don’t.

  255. 255
    Citizen Alan says:

    @debit:

    In real life, I have told Trump voters in my extended family that I don’t want to hear anything they have to say. They can save their excuses for Jesus when they’re begging him not to send them to hell. Since I live in the Bible Belt, you can imagine how well that went over.

  256. 256
    WaterGirl says:

    @TriassicSands: Yep, kind of like the difference between, “oh, okay” and “you’re dead to me”. :-)

  257. 257
    Karen says:

    they are spending campaign money on legal fees, how is this even legal?
    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/.....id=U348DHP

  258. 258
    WaterGirl says:

    @Karen: I don’t think it is legal. That doesn’t seem to stop Trump.

  259. 259
    Ruckus says:

    @TriassicSands:

    It’s more about atmosphere, service, and the fact that Walmart can afford to do much better than they do and they don’t.

    As I said, they are all the bad things we think about them. I’ve seen them decimate small town business when they moved in and I lived in a county that would not let them move in. There was Target, Costco and a HD in the county, that’s as close to big, current MBA capitalism that they would allow in.

  260. 260
    Ruckus says:

    @WaterGirl:
    Legal, illegal, why should he care, he has the bestest lawyers.
    Wanna bet he doesn’t understand the difference between stiffing contractors (civil law) and stiffing citizens (criminal law) and how much different the two are handled?

  261. 261
    moops says:

    @woodrowfan: I thought everyone got debate questions ahead of time, or is that just for Presidential and Vice-Presidential debates?

    Did Hillary actual get any Primary debate questions ahead of time, or just topics and a suggestion list?

    One question I do have is: Is the dirt on Hillary receiving *funding* from Russian actors a real possibility? or once again super-hard boner projection? Or the Russian’s knowing that for the GOP everything is projection and hence that is the kind of hypothetical dirt they knew Trump’s people would believe and accept a meeting that compromised all of them.

    I suspect the third option. You want an event that is patently scandalous so you offer the thing that the opposite party is totally prone to believing: The exact crime they themselves are filthy of.

  262. 262
    WaterGirl says:

    @Ruckus: I am very much hoping that he soon finds out. So far there hasn’t been anything for him that money can’t buy. Pretty sure he owns even his own wife, loosely speaking. I hope he learns this lesson soon, and learns it the hard way.

  263. 263
    Ruckus says:

    @moops:
    Don’t forget everything, that’s every fucking thing with republicans is projection. If they are accusing someone of something, it’s because it’s what they would do, most likely have been or are doing.

  264. 264
    jayjaybear says:

    @West of the Rockies (been a while): At least he’d finally be a ginger.

  265. 265
    TenguPhule says:

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    It seems to me that the reaction of the Rs and Trump voters to the Russia scandal has tipped a whole lot of people into calling them “beyond the reach of reason or decency.”

    Well, yes.

    That’s who they’ve always been.

    And they’re not going away peacefully.

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