Sunday Gravy (Open Thread)

Sauce is always better the next day, so I made tomorrow’s gravy today:

It’s made with 4 28-oz cans of San Marzano tomatoes, half a can of tomato paste, 2 cups of tomato juice, 5 cloves of garlic, 6 basil leaves, a pinch or two of red pepper flakes, some crushed fennel seed, a few glugs of red wine, 4 boneless spare ribs, a pound of beef short ribs and 20 meatballs.

The secret, IMO, is browning all the meat first before adding it to the sauce. It’s pretty good, if I say so myself. I married into a family with Italian-Americans on one side, and I do not have to be ashamed in their mighty company.

That’s about all I’ve done today. You?

185 replies
  1. 1
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    That looks really REALLY REALLY good!

  2. 2
    p.a. says:

    Big controversy up here in N.E. about using the word ‘gravy’ for red sauce. Generally consideded a no-no the higher you rise on the socio-economic ladder. We used them interchangeably, and Ity both sides for 4 generations, although dad’s side red hair, freckles, green/hazel eyes, so they decided not to look any further back. 😮🤔

  3. 3
    Yarrow says:

    That looks amazing. How many people are you planning to feed with that? Sounds like you could feed a big group.

  4. 4
    japa21 says:

    Well, we now know what we are doing for the first night of the family reunion we are hosting. Did you just get regular ribs and debone them?

  5. 5

    I made a tomato sauce too, with onions, garlic and spices, it serves as a base for many things I make. Then I made dal, mashed spicy butternut squash, plantains bhaji.

  6. 6
    jl says:

    Looks good. I want some.

    And what am I doing today? Puling word usage police duty on this here blog.
    Gravy? When you do call tomato sauce ‘gravy’?

  7. 7
    Humdog says:

    So, are you simmering it all day today, fridging it overnight, and reheating the whole thing for Sunday? It is hard to imagine tending a hot stove all day in Florida in July.

  8. 8
    jeffreyw says:

    I could eat that. We have tomatoes coming on so I think it’s BLTs tonight. I was going to smoke a pork butt for a few hours then finish it in the oven but the big chunk of meat turned out to be beef so I had to skip a bit to regain my stride. It will now become Italian beef in the crockpot through the magic of garlic and dried basil.

  9. 9

    @jl: Thanks, I had the same question.

  10. 10
    Davis X. Machina says:

    If they call it anything else in the very Italian state of Rhode Island, besides ‘gravy’, I’ve yet to hear it.

    One pot, one cook, 3 meals, for pork? San Genovese. Campania’s answer to pulled pork. 7 pound pork shoulder, 5 pound bag of onions, little-of-the, little of that.
    (A Lidia Bastianich recipe…)

  11. 11
    Jeffro says:

    I made my own pimiento cheese today, enough for a few sandwiches this week…cravings, what can you do?

  12. 12
    Mike J says:

    Six leaves of basil isn’t enough for me, but I’m just a fiend for the stuff.

  13. 13

    I went mad. Came back underwhelmed. Will have to go again tomorrow.

  14. 14
    cope says:

    Where did you find San Marzano tomatoes? I’m always looking for them at Publix and Swillmart but have yet to connect.

    Found some missing pieces for an ancient Dremel tool today so mrs. cope can drill some holes in shells for a project, still baking some bacon for BLTs for tonight, got her car running (new battery) after a few months sitting in the garage and I’m looking forward to the US/Nicaragua game tonight.

    Also, too, finally…FINALLY have the pool looking nice so tomorrow…

  15. 15
    efgoldman says:


    Big controversy up here in N.E. about using the word ‘gravy’ for red sauce.

    Only ever heard it here in RI; never in MA.

  16. 16
    BCHS Class of 1980 says:

    @p.a.: My impression is that it is more of an “etnic” thing. My wife’s Italian family will use “gravy” for tomato-based sauces, while my central WV family only used it in the Southern sense. I’ll let Cole attest to the usage in the Eye-talian northern part of WV.

  17. 17
    Karen says:

    Just finished making cabbage salad, chop 2 heads green cabbage, 1 head red, 3 red onions, bag of carrots, 1 pound shredded cheese, raisins, balsamic dressing and let sit at least one day so raisins are moist before using.

  18. 18
    Yarrow says:

    @Davis X. Machina: So what do they call actual gravy? Like what you put on top of mashed potatoes?

  19. 19
    Felonius Monk says:

    What? No Braciole? :)

  20. 20
    Elmo says:

    Some weekends I’ll spend a day just cooking meatballs for the freezer, so I can make a pot like that on something of a whim, without having to commit to meatballs first. I almost always have a dozen or two in the freezer.

    Thank the Maker for my FoodSaver!

    I use roasted oxtails instead of short ribs, and I am a sucker for spicy Italian sausage.

  21. 21
    Betty Cracker says:

    @japa21: I used boneless pork spare ribs and bone-in beef short ribs, which I will de-bone — easy to do when it has simmered for hours.

    @cope: Our Publix carries them — Cento brand.

  22. 22
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    @jl: They say “gravy” in Italian neighborhoods here in Philly, but I never heard that before moving here 15-ish years ago. I always assumed it was a Philly Italian thing.

    There’s also a thing where C’s become G’s and they drop the last syllable. So provolone = provolon’ and capicola = gabigol’. Somebody told me once that’s a Napoli accent.

    Maybe the “gravy” word is, too. Betty, where are your Italian relatives from?

  23. 23
    Betty Cracker says:

    Regarding “gravy” — I’m the only one in the family who calls it that, and only ironically. I think I picked it up from The Sopranos? 🤔

  24. 24
    Anne Laurie says:


    Big controversy up here in N.E. about using the word ‘gravy’ for red sauce. Generally consideded a no-no the higher you rise on the socio-economic ladder.

    Way it was explained to me, when I was growing up in the Bronx, the immigrant Italians called it “gravy” in pissant white-bread towns where the Protestant majority didn’t allow proper sorted-by-ethnicity neighborhoods. If you had enough of your fellows around you, you didn’t have to dumb things down for palates unaccustomed to any flavors stronger than salt and very old pre-ground black pepper.

    My dad learned to cook, when he was very young, from the nice Sicilian lady in the apartment next door. Since his mother was not only lace-curtain Irish, but (as we only discovered after her death) born Orange, it was self-defense on his part. The man would put tomato sauce on anything — there was one summer he was obsessed with perfecting a version of Euell Gibbon’s tomato ice-cream topping, and frankly there could not be a more white-bread culinary idea ever misbegotten. By the time I escaped to college, I’d gotten pretty bored with basic red sauce; it wasn’t until I started growing my own tomatoes that I really paid much attention to it again…

  25. 25
    Lapassionara says:

    That looks delicious. I am making chicken Marsala tonight. Only I did not have enough sherry, so used vermouth instead. Hope it works.

    Off topic, but I must have hit a funky button on my IPad. The top of Safari is now pitch black, and the presentation of BJ on the screen is headline only. Not only that, it does not remember my nym and email address as in the past. Any thoughts?

  26. 26
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: My husband’s mom is Italian-American. They are from Carrara a few generations back.

  27. 27
    p.a. says:

    Q: meatballs. what combo beef pork veal? (I’m agnostic)

    I brown meat then deglaze w onions garlic dago red.

    Try browning a 7 bone chuck ‘roast’ (really a big steak). If it doesn’t fit flat in the pan you’re not making enough gravy. 🙃

  28. 28
    debit says:

    That looks amazing, Betty. Being hopelessly Midwestern, I’ve never added ribs to my sauce. I assume you let it cook until the meat falls off the bone? ETA: saw your answer above.

    I don’t feel like eating (or preparing) anything hot so I made a big bowl of vegetables (spiralized seedless cucumbers, shredded cabbage, shredded carrot, chopped green onions, cilantro) and tossed it with a peanut sauce (peanut butter, hoisin, siracha, soy sauce, grated ginger, a little water) and have had it for breakfast, lunch, and probably will for dinner too.

  29. 29
    WaterGirl says:

    It sounds awesome, but the gravy thing has me a bit confused, too. So you end up with a red sauce for pasta, which you serve with the meatballs and the rib meat? Does the rib meat fall off the bones, and then you take the bones out like you would a soup bone?

  30. 30
    dr. bloor says:

    @Betty Cracker: Looks very good. Let’s hope the silencers fit the guns you bought from your Pittsburgh guys, and that you don’t spot any helicopters following you around the neighborhood.

  31. 31
    BCHS Class of 1980 says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: Again based on my experience with my Syracuse-based in-laws and brief studies in Spanish and Italian, the C-to-G thing happened because the hard C in Italian is not aspirated (no puff of air), so that sound to an Anglophone ear appears to be a G. As for the dropping of the last vowel, that seems to be a Sicilian thing.

  32. 32
    ThresherK says:

    I copied this from someplace on the intertubes. I’ll have to try to put the advice into action later.

    If you really want true San Marzano tomatoes, look for the words “Pomodoro San Marzano dell’Agro Sarnese Nocerino” and know that San Marzanos are never sold chopped, diced, or pureed. They’ll also be expensive, as one would expect fancy Italian volcano tomatoes to be.

  33. 33
    WaterGirl says:

    Jefferyw mentioned homemade italian beef, which I have only made once. (seemed like a lot of work!)

    Portillo’s opened here recently and I went for the first time last week. Wow! I am a Chicago girl and I have to say that is the best Italian Beef I have ever had, including my favorite place growing up in Chicago, which was Carm’s.

    Now that I am thinking about it, I am going to have to go and get some tomorrow. The Portillo’s here is still so busy that there is a long wait, but it’s worth it. There is so much meat that one sandwich lasts me for 3 meals. But oh my god it is so good.

  34. 34
    efgoldman says:


    meatballs. what combo beef pork veal? (I’m agnostic)

    We buy the meatball mix from Dave’s. Equal amounts of fresh ground pork, fresh ground beef, and fresh ground veal. Makes great meatsa-ballza.

  35. 35
    lurker dean says:

    i read an interesting article recently about how most san marzano tomatoes are fake! i had no idea. i suspect a lot of olive oil is fake or overlabeled (not really extra virgin) too.

    “So according to the guy who oversees the certification of those tomatoes, at least 95 percent of the so-called San Marzanos in the U.S. are fakes.”

    that said, your recipe with all those ribs sounds killer!

  36. 36
    eclare says:

    Here in Memphis TN I’ve only heard “gravy” at the Italian festival. Same question as above, so what do people call the stuff on dressing?

  37. 37
    Aleta says:

    Got some fresh basil at the farmer’s market, mixed it in with yellow summer squash melting into some olive oil in the cast frying pan. Rice.

  38. 38
    p.a. says:

    @ThresherK: Giada de Laurentiis said not to buy whole canned tomatoes; there’s a chemical added to keep their shape. America’s Test Kitchen said San M’s aren’t really necessary. I like ATM but I don’t like their pay-for-view website: they’re PBS!

  39. 39
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    @lurker dean: Read somewhere recently that the US is considered a place to dump inferior olive oil because for the most part we can’t tell the difference from the good stuff.

    Actually, I know exactly where I read that. It was in Mary Roach’s book Gulp. Roach is an incredibly informative and incredibly funny science writer. Gulp is basically about the science of the digestive process, from top to, er, bottom.

  40. 40

    Off to make other sauces and chutneys. Apart from tomato sauce, I make mint chutney, coconut chutney and tamarind chutney.
    Chutney in Indian cuisine are relishes mostly spicy and some sweet and sour. They don’t require much if any cooking. All the chutneys I have mentioned above require no cooking.

  41. 41
    debbie says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Also The Godfather.

  42. 42
    p.a. says:

    @eclare: They’ll call it brown gravy, or turkey/chicken gravy for that yellow stuff from a packet. Sauce would be anything involving dairy I guess. Never heard anyone say Hollandaise gravy, bechamel gravy.

  43. 43
    Redshift says:

    I married into a family with Italian-Americans on one side, and I do not have to be ashamed in their mighty company.

    Reminds me of my wife’s late aunt, who, we liked to say, married an Italian guy and converted.

    She grew up so English that an ancestor was the deputy royal governor over what we now call Connecticut, but by the time I met her, she was making excellent tortellini and gave as good as she got in the family’s, er, somewhat stereotypical Italian-American behavior.

  44. 44

    @p.a.: I am not a fan of Chris Kimball and his approach to cooking YMMV.

  45. 45
    Schlemazel says:

    I love Indian food and learned a lot from an Indian co-worker. I found it very disconcerting that he refered to every sauce as ‘gravy’. I can’t bring myself to do it.

    but: Good gravy BC!

  46. 46
    zhena gogolia says:


    I believe they call that “gravy” too.

    I feels to me the way that in Russian, light-blue and dark-blue are two distinct colors with two totally different names, but English speakers see it all as “blue.” Some people see red gravy and brown gravy as being the same thing, where they’re totally distinct to the rest of us.

  47. 47

    @Schlemazel: I have heard that too. Indians use English in the most peculiar manner, we are like that only!

    ETA: Do you know what part of India your coworker is originally from? Because regional differences are immense.

  48. 48
    zhena gogolia says:


    They were showing The Godfather on my treadmill this morning but the closed captioning wasn’t working so I watched it as a silent film. I was amazed at how young Marlon Brando looked. I guess that means I’m old.

  49. 49
    efgoldman says:


    I am making chicken Marsala tonight.

    Well, one of the things about this here kidney failure thing is that it has totally destroyed my appetite, to the point i have to force myself to eat,
    Until now.
    I am having a Pavlovian reaction. Thank you. Seriously.

  50. 50
    p.a. says:

    Here’s a really well done S Italian cookbook with great stories. Some marriages didn’t survive the bride’s being instructed by the groom’s mom (and aunts) how to cook for their baby. Especially 2nd generation.

  51. 51
    eclare says:

    @p.a.: Good point about sauce, hadn’t thought of that. Waiting for the sun to go down before I make fajitas…red, yellow, and orange bell peppers, onions, chicken, guacamole and salsa.

  52. 52
    satby says:

    I did another slow farmers market today, sigh. Nine hours on my feet with some long no sale stretches. Slow for everyone again, the orchard stand across from me had lots of produce left when they usually sell out. After that, I end up napping for about 40 minutes once I let the herd out first. I seldom accomplish more than dragging the totes of soap back into the house and keeping the critters happy on market days

    This morning at 5am my big guy upended the bird bath chasing a critter in the dark, irreparably breaking the bowl. So a new one is on the list.

    And yesterday I went to the SS office in town and applied for my retirement benefit!! With direct deposit, she told me to expect my first check next week. I nearly fell off the chair.

  53. 53
    Schlemazel says:

    Has to have hot eye-tie or it is missing something. I bet the ox tail adds more gelatin and gives it a richer feel but ribs are good for that too.

  54. 54
    StringOnAStick says:

    I’m nursing an ankle after a deep cortisone injection yesterday, but the gel thing I stand on for the sink/counter made standing for awhile ok-ish. I made my copy of the Zoe’s Kitchen’s cabbage & feta Cole slaw, our usual weekly bucket of chopped veg for salads, gelatin squares (knee assistance), cubed up half a watermelon, oven roasted some sweet onions, baked some apricot halves filled with sweetened cottage cheese, and bottled up this week’s kombucha. Now I get to sit down for the rest of the evening and let hubby grill some salmon while we watch the Tour de France. I’m of the “cooking frenzy” persuasion.

  55. 55
    p.a. says:

    @schrodingers_cat: He’s off the show. It was messy I hear, but I don’t know the backstory.

  56. 56
    eclare says:

    @satby: Sorry about the slow market, that has to be frustrating. But Yay! on your benefits!

  57. 57
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @jl: Mrs. Antonelli next door (when I was a kid) and born in Sicily, came here when she was 16 and already an accomplished cook, always called it gravy.

  58. 58
    Betty Cracker says:

    @WaterGirl: A Portillos opened within an hour of us a while back. I’d never heard of it, but we tried it because people were raving about it. Pretty damn good, IMO. I make a crock pot Italian beef that is very similar, and it’s not hard to make. It involves a jar of pepperoncinis with juice, IIRC.

    @schrodingers_cat: If you can point me to some decent chutney recipes, I’d appreciate it. Never made it before, but I do like it in restaurants.

  59. 59
    satby says:

    @eclare: I know, right? The woman asked how I was, and I told her I had been waiting for this for more than 40 years. She was looking at the screen that shows earning history, and she corrected me: 45 years.

  60. 60
    p.a. says:

    @satby: Do you mind if I ask? I’m a few years away, but AARP says wait for full benefit age, while everyone I know cashed at 62, even if not an economic necessity. Get it while you’re upright is the thinking.

  61. 61
    Lapassionara says:

    @efgoldman: hope it helps some. Sometimes, life just sucks. Sigh

  62. 62
    Yarrow says:

    @satby: Sorry the market was slow. Do you bring a folding chair or stool with you in case of slow days? Maybe that would be like bringing an umbrella to keep away the rain. The market would be busier if you brought a chair.

    I’m feeling very lazy today. Leftovers for dinner.

  63. 63
    debbie says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    When I watched it recently, I thought Pacino looked like a little kid!

  64. 64
    Schlemazel says:

    The reason to use canned tomatoes is becaused they are picked ripe and canned fresh. Those red lumps sold in stores are picked green and gassed to turn red – not ripen. Now, if you have fresh tomatoes that is a different thing otherwise canned taste better. I wouldn’t trust Giada to butter my bread.

    America’s Test Kitchen is a mixed bag IMO. They really do make sense 85% of the time then all of a sudden they will throw something out there that is magical thinking while claiming it is simply a must. The Kimball guy they fired stuck me as something of a food snob. The worst of those is that woman on NPRs “The Splendid Table” who will insist you can’t make a proper ‘X’ unless you get this one special type of item, only picked by virgins on alternate Fridays after the second Sunday of the month from the south facing slope of the Eastern most fields of wherever they are from. I HATE that attitude

  65. 65
    satby says:

    @p.a.: The thinking is that waiting gives you more money per month, which can be helpful if you still have a mortgage or large monthly bills. But you break even on payout somewhere about age 82 IIRC, and if your family history has people not living much past the late 70s or early 80s you may as well get it and enjoy a few years of leisure.
    You can still earn up to 16k/year without affecting your benefit.I

    Edited to add: I didn’t think twice, I wanted out of the instability of having to hustle to get jobs once I was laid off at 59. And I look forward to some traveling while I ‘m still healthy.

  66. 66
    SWMBO says:

    OT but did Walker’s cat make it home safe?

  67. 67
    Schlemazel says:

    The Southeastern part. I’m going to probably embarrass myself & not look it up, Timal?

    looked it up Tamal Nadu. His dad is a farmer there

  68. 68
    Waratah says:

    Betty’s sauce looks great, but I found a King Ranch chicken casserole at Southern Living
    Without the cream soups and has roasted poblanos, chili powder, cumin, tomatoes with green chili, sour cream and smoked chicken and lots of cheese. I will not be happy until I try this.

  69. 69
    p.a. says:

    @Schlemazel: no issue with canned, just whole canned. crushed etc fine; they lack the chemical firming agent.

  70. 70
    Schlemazel says:

    I believe he tried to make is trophy girlfriend a senior producer or some such BS.

  71. 71
    Another Scott says:

    @Lapassionara: It sounds like your browser is in “Private” mode. It doesn’t save logins, etc., in that mode. Dunno how you get out of it in Safari on the iPad. But that should give you a place to look.

    Good luck!


  72. 72
    satby says:

    @SWMBO: don’t think we’ve heard yet. Hope so.

  73. 73
    SWMBO says:

    @satby: Thanks.

  74. 74
    Yoda Dog says:

    OT: I wish someone could explain to me why the Cosby Show is still running. His schtick is really gross and unsettling now that we know who is he and what he’s done. I can’t be the only one who feels this way.

  75. 75
    Lapassionara says:

    @Another Scott: thanks!

  76. 76
    p.a. says:

    @Schlemazel: Without cable-or a smart tv- I rely on PBS. I miss Alton Brown, but FoodNetwork was pretty bad otherwise. He doesn’t do Good Eats anymoe anyway, correct?

  77. 77
    Lapassionara says:

    @p.a.: what I was told was it depends on your overall financial situation. My husband took his early, and in years when he worked more than was ok, we paid a penalty. I took mine at my retirement age, per the gov. I was not retired, but I did not have to worry about working too much. Later I learned that some people wait until 70, and get rewarded for that. So, I am glad I waited, but I think each person is different.

  78. 78
    CZanne says:

    Last night, I canned 30 pounds of chicken breast and six pounds of beef. I am absolutely awful with defrosting, and I cannot manage to make a non-dry, non-grainy boneless, skinless chicken breast except by putting it in a jar, putting it in a pressure cooker, and leaving it on a shelf. (Also true with very lean beef, like round or London broil, and pork loin.) This got a lot more complicated since we moved into this house. We have an induction stove, which is lovely. But canners are aluminum, and even with the induction disk, I can’t keep it at high altitude pressure. That means I prep the jars upstairs in the kitchen, can them on a propane stove in the garage, thus hanging out in the garage for a couple hours, babysitting the canner. Being in the garage for hours has given me time to strip the paint off a beat to hell 1922 Singer sewing machine, recondition the internal mechanicals, and repaint it.

    Today, I prepped 12 pounds of peaches and 6 pounds of cherries and am waiting on the dishwasher for the hot jars. My peach slices are less pretty than commercial, but they taste great. Bratwurst and salads for supper, though.

  79. 79

    @p.a.: Sort of irrelevant, but when Mr IOL retired, I took spousal benefits on his account. When I turn 70 later this month, I’ll switch over to my own benefits which have been growing over the last few years. For various reasons, that was a good option for us.

  80. 80
    cope says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Thanks, I’ll take a look tomorrow when I make my daily visit. The one nearest our house we call “Little Publix” cause it’s, well, little. If I don’t see them there, I’ll venture further afield to one of the “Big Publix” stores further away.

  81. 81
    Schlemazel says:

    No, he does a couple of those BS competition shows. I used to love him but he did that same thing were all of a sudden he would toss out a klincker about sourcing or overly complicate something for very little improvement. Still “Good Eats” could teach you a lot about how to cook because it gave knowledge & not just recipes.

  82. 82
    divF says:


    there’s a chemical added to keep their shape.

    That chemical is calcium chloride. Check the ingredients list for canned tomatoes that don’t contain it (citric acid is ok, though).

  83. 83
    Another Scott says:

    @satby: Congratulations! We’ve all heard for years that Social Security isn’t going to be there for us. Thanks for confirming that it’s not true! ;-)

    Sorry the summer market sales have been disappointed, and about the bird bath. Here’s hoping that’s the last stretch of bad luck for a while!

    (Who hopes Atrios’s thesis that Social Security benefits need to be raised is taken seriously soon.)

  84. 84
    cope says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    And my understanding (and experience) is that the Scots dump inferior wiskey on our shores and keep the good stuff for themselves.

  85. 85
    Lapassionara says:

    @Lapassionara: ok, so I went to settings, and there was no clue. So I just asked the great and powerful Google machine, and it said hit the two square thingy on the top right side of the screen, which I did. The word private appeared, and I clicked it. Now back to maybe normal. Thanks so much,

  86. 86
    cope says:


    I am an Italian beef addict, always on the look out and seldom successful here in the Mouse Town area.

    Ironic that one opens in Brandon just after our daughter and her family moved from there to Osceola County. Oh well, maybe central Florida is on their “to do” list.

  87. 87

    @jl: Gravy is grey, it even has grey in the name. Could be brown but a greyish brown.

  88. 88
    divF says:


    Also The Godfather.

    My father’s family is from Apulia, around Bari, immigrated in stages 1910-1935, and lived in NY. Many of the incidental parts of daily family life in the Godfather rang true from memories of my early childhood (1950’s) when we’d go back to visit the grandparents in Sheepshead Bay. Clemenza’s recipe for red sauce in particular was spot-on, both the directions and the look and feel.

    Obviously, this was the same for Coppola, who grew up in Great Neck.

  89. 89
    cope says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    I have a similar “full jar of pepperocinis” sliced meat menu I use as well, Betty. Not exactly Italian beef but pretty damn close.

  90. 90
    Riley's Enabler says:

    I require the help of the Hive Mind, please. Any Juicers in the Stowe area? Need restaurant advice for a large group (40) of ravenous lacrosse kids and various parents next week (thurs and friday). Then need any ideas for must-see/do in the area, I’ve never been and have a week to explore. Thanks in advance!

  91. 91
    ruemara says:

    @efgoldman: I’m sorry. I really am.

    I’m developing a cookie recipe and the beer pizza dough recipe for SDCC. And packing. Sadly, there was so much to do today I am behind in the cleaning and laundry. Dinner will be something unspeakably bland and hastily thrown together. Also, I got a bill for this month and last month’s car payment from my title company, which freaked me out since next month I’m carrying the entire month’s rent solo and I know paid my car payment early and over the amount I’m supposed to, just as I’ve done for more than a year. So I checked my bank account and there was the canceled check with the right name, account and etc. So I don’t know what happened, but since they’re closed today, I’m going to make sure they get a letter from me giving them the business for this. Bah.

  92. 92

    Sauce is always better the next day, so I made tomorrow’s gravy today.

    Oh, that’s clever.

  93. 93

    @p.a.: sauce is not gravy – not even close. But that is one fine looking batch of sauce, BC

  94. 94
    lurker dean says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: i suspect that’s right, that most US consumers can’t tell the difference. gulp sounds like an interesting book, i’ll put it on the list :o)

  95. 95
    germy says:

    Off topic, but this bugs me (pardon the pun)

    Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease And You Can’t

    I know four people who got lyme from tick bites. This season is particularly bad, because of the wet spring.

    My wife and I love being outdoors. She loves gardening, we love our hikes, Shakespeare and concerts in the park, enjoying our property. I hate having to douse myself with foul-smelling insecticide and worrying about being bitten and infected.

  96. 96
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    I made lemon-pistachio bars and am heading out shortly with Ms. O to meet friends at a Santa Fe Fuego game. All very small-towny. Tix cost $6 and they pass the hat to collect $1 bills when one of our guys hits a home run. Kiwanis guys sell hot dogs and pizza out of a trailer. Good fun.

    ETA: The Fuego are part of the Pecos League. Tonight’s game is against the Trinidad Triggers. I love minor league ball.

  97. 97
    Schlemazel says:

    Calcium Chloride is used in most pasteurized milk cheeses and in tofu. I am not aware of any health issues

  98. 98
    germy says:

    Since Kimball left (they wouldn’t give him the raise he demanded?) America’s Test Kitchen is a better show, IMO. The cast is more diverse and interesting. Kimball always seemed subtly dickish to me; he seemed to bully the nice guy who did the blind brand comparisons.

  99. 99

    @Schlemazel: Tamil Nadu, land of the Tamils. Husband kitteh’s peeps. My family is from western India, from Mumbai, the state is Maharashtra (Great Nation), hubris we has it.

  100. 100
    raven says:

    Mrs DiFelciantonio used to come from Philly to see her son play football at Illinois. She made a huge gravy with braciole, meatballs, chicken and ribs! She added “macaroni” to the gravy after she took the meat out and served them on separate platters. After we had Tasty Cakes and Brioschi. Bella.

  101. 101
    efgoldman says:


    she told me to expect my first check next week. I nearly fell off the chair.

    I actually got my first deposit before I formally retired (two years ago). My last day was July 1, but the transfers happen on the 27th of the previous month.

  102. 102
    ThresherK says:

    @O. Felix Culpa: I remember catching some of the FS1 show about the Pecos League (and Trindad) a few years ago.

    I know it’s an unaffiliated league, but it does remind me of a few New York-Penn League places (short-season A) I’ve been known to haunt.

  103. 103

    @Betty Cracker: The restaurant chutneys are not a patch on my home made chutneys, if I may say so myself. I will write up the recipes and share.

  104. 104
    WaterGirl says:

    @cope: Same here until Portillo’s opened – I would see “italian beef” on a menu and give it the side-eye, usually asking if I could have a tiny taste before I decided whether to order. Why don’t they call it roast beef if it’s not going to have any flavor???

    So I am thrilled about the new Portillo’s.

  105. 105
    Schlemazel says:

    Certainly a great people and what is a nation other than people. I was very familiar with local variations of European dishes but he really opened my eyes to the same thing with Indian foods.

    He also introduced me to Indian versions of Chinese food (he said it was very popular) Some of it was not bad as long as I didn’t expect it to taste like the American version. My guess is the Chinese would toss both versions and start again

  106. 106
    raven says:

    @WaterGirl: My home town

    The first Portillo’s hot dog stand known as “The Dog House” opens in 1963 on North Avenue in Villa Park. Owner and founder Dick Portillo invests $1,100 into a 6′ x 12′ trailer without a bathroom or running water. To get the water he needs, he runs 250 feet of garden hose from a nearby building into the trailer.

    We never went there, we went to Poodles on St Charles Rd. And speaking of “gravy”, when we didn’t have enough dough we’d get a gravy sandwich, Italian Beef gravy on that killer bread.

  107. 107
    WaterGirl says:

    @Betty Cracker: I am pretty fussy about the meat for italian beef- is it chunky, thin sliced, etc. Portillo’s was perfect! Thin sliced but clearly real beef not the pieced together crap that a lot of places use for italian beef, very tender and no pieces of meat that you have to fight with. :-)

    But if I’m ever in your neighborhood, I would gladly eat italian beef with you and drink at your tiki bar. Speaking of which, have you moved yet? Do you / will you still have a tiki bar at the new place?

  108. 108
    rikyrah says:

    Looks delicious😘😘

  109. 109
    Schlemazel says:

    Do you have that green sort of minty one? I have asked at a couple of places but never gotten the ingredients.

  110. 110
    Chris says:

    Looks soo good. I made up my own sauce awhile back and it’s amazing. I don’t measure anything precisely, just two cans of San Marzano (*true* San Marzano, nothing else compares) slightly buzzed in the food processor, olive oil, fresh garlic, bit of dried oregano and basil, glug of tomato paste, handful of fresh basil. Simmer and simmer. Add meatballs (I make the most epic meatballs). I am super interested about the gravy recipe with adding ribs though. How does that go?

  111. 111
    raven says:

    @Betty Cracker: Fennel seed.

  112. 112
    ThresherK says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I want recipes! In New England there are three chutneys (or sauces) served at Indian restaurants: The onion w/red, the mint, and tamarind (if I have them correctly).

    I don’t know how authentic any of them are, but I really like the green one, and I would take a crack at making them at home.

  113. 113
    👩🏽‍🔬 Martin says:

    I’m with p.a. That’s not gravy. That’s red sauce. We have different words for a reason.

  114. 114
    WaterGirl says:

    @germy: I don’t say this often, but what the fuck? That’s crazy.

  115. 115
  116. 116
    WaterGirl says:

    @raven: Thanks for the trip down memory lane. What shape was the macaroni?

  117. 117
    germy says:

    @WaterGirl: How is your cat? Have you tried the wheat litter?

  118. 118
    Lapassionara says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Please do. I love mint/cilantro chutney, also tamarind.

  119. 119
    efgoldman says:


    Later I learned that some people wait until 70, and get rewarded for that.

    I did. Turned 65 in 2010, coming out of the teeth of the recession. Like everyone else, my 401k took a *huge* hit. Also there was no ACA yet to cover mrs efg. Five years later, my plan had recovered all the way and then some, and eventually after some hassles, got mrs efg on the RI exchanges. And of course, the monthly payout is amortized based on the extra five years that Uncle Sam theoretically, actuarially doesn’t have to pay – in my case several hundred dollars/month.

  120. 120
    raven says:

    @WaterGirl:mostaccioli He lived in a little basement apartment right down from the Urbana Free Library. It was something getting a bunch of Illini football players and hippies in that joint.

  121. 121
    Just One More Canuck says:

    @O. Felix Culpa@95: minor league baseball is the best – far more interesting in a lot of ways than he majors, if for no other reason than you are so close to the action and the players. I went to a game with my niece many years ago in Edmonton when a foul ball went into the bullpen near us. One of the pitchers tossed the ball to my niece on the condition that we get him a couple of hot dogs (he paid)

    Love the name Fuego – up there with a couple of other favourites – the Akron Rubber Ducks and the Great Lakes Loons

  122. 122
    WaterGirl says:

    @raven: Great story. I expected Portillo’s to be a small hole-in-the-wall joint, but it’s huge and you can get a million different kinds of foods there. (But why would you want to????) There was a place to get salad, a place to get ribs, etc.

    I wonder if they are all like that? So I wasn’t happy with the place itself but damn the italian beef is good!

    edit: the right kind of bread & italian beef juice = heaven

  123. 123
    raven says:

    @WaterGirl: Wow, the house is still there, corner of Race and California.

  124. 124
  125. 125
    khead says:

    I’m not even skimming the comments before weighing in:

    It’s fucking gravy. Not sauce.

  126. 126
    HinTN says:

    Started sauerkraut. Sixteen pounds of shredded cabbage in the crock with salt. Wait a month or so. Soon the crud as needed. Also, mowed grass and sat on the screened porch with an appropriate libation. Yep

  127. 127
    satby says:

    @Another Scott: oh heck, that’s not bad luck, that’s all just inconvenient! I’m a lucky lady!

  128. 128
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @BCHS Class of 1980: FTR both sets of my Italian grandparents settled up the Monongahela from (that is, south of) Pittsburgh in deepest darkest north-central Appalachia (Marion County WV & Fayette Co. PA). IOW I hold membership by birth in Italianness & by refugee status in hillbillism.

    So hear me now:

    Anything made from tomatoes was & is sauce.

    Anything made from meat drippings (with or without flour) was & is gravy.


  129. 129
    WaterGirl says:

    @germy: Thanks for asking!

    Wheat litter has been ordered but won’t arrive until Wednesday. I ordered with Amazon Prime figuring it would be here Monday. ??? In the meantime, I changed her from dry food to oven-roasted chicken thighs and pumpkin. So far, so good. No more blood in her poop (too much information,sorry) – they said there was a ton of bacteria when I brought in the sample. They suggested antibiotics but they didn’t have a shot or changing to a bland diet of boiled chicken and rice. I halfway followed the instructions with the roast chicken breasts and pumpkin and she already seems more like her old self.

    She lost nearly all the hair on her hind legs a few months ago, which hasn’t grown back, and started picking at her food, and would sometimes poop outside the litter box – never did before in 7 years unless she didn’t feel good, and now I’m wondering if it might be the litter.

    Definitely going to change the litter to either the wheat or pine. Did you happen to see my question the other day about whether it is mildly pine-y or if it’s an artificial pine smell, which I am allergic to.

  130. 130
    cain says:

    Speaking of food, I had my dinner party last night, and it felt like a great success. As a host, there is nothing more satisfying than to seeing and hearing people enjoying themselves. The house was filled with laughter and conversation. All the teen/pre-teen children were off on a sofa reading books, which I thought was pretty impressive, I know I never did that.

    I served, a roasted paneer dish seasoned with mint/garlic/ginger and lime, and grilled chicken with my own marinade of indian spices, and an egg curry made with whole spices and then an almond paste instead of cream. I was told, repeatedly, how good the food was and how great the party was.

    All and all, a great party. I live as a hermit at times and it’s always nice to have people over and fill the house with humans. Thanks for listening.

  131. 131
    ThresherK says:

    @Just One More Canuck: I remember the Lansing Lugnuts when they were new. And for those of you old enough to remember Studebaker, the South Bend Silverhawks deserve a shoutout.

  132. 132
    Reality-based (the original, not the troll) says:

    @germy: yeah.

    My first round with lyme took two years to get diagnosed, and did a lot of damage. (didn’t help that I also got babesiosis from the damn tick. ) Lyme tests are no more accurate than flipping a coin.

    Found a deer tick I’d missed in my hairline this spring, went immediately to Dr.s office, demanded a shot of Rocephin and a month’s worth of Doxycyclene (since it’s the same doc who missed my first case – he believed the inaccurate tests – he now meekly prescribes for me.)

    but I better NOT be heading down this road again. Why, oh WHY can’t we get a vaccine?

  133. 133

    @Schlemazel: I had a friend from northern China, he detested the Sichuan (sp?) food popular here, that everyone identifies with Chinese food.

  134. 134
    Schlemazel says:

    Company I worked for 20 years stole our pensions. I just turned 65 and am trying to make it to 70. It makes several hundred dollars a month extra in SS. The trade off is not receiving it for as long and paying in an extra 5 years.

  135. 135
    WaterGirl says:

    @raven: Good food can bring people together. Mostacolii is always a good choice.

  136. 136
    WaterGirl says:

    @raven: Now I have to go look. Is it the one with the picture of the dog painted on it?

  137. 137
    germy says:


    Did you happen to see my question the other day about whether it is mildly pine-y or if it’s an artificial pine smell,

    I’ve only used the corn litter. I’m thinking of switching to something else if I can get away with it. (Our cat doesn’t like change) Certain smells (like heavy perfumes or scents) give me a headache so I don’t know.

  138. 138
    mainmata says:

    @ThresherK: I think the site you’re remembering may be from a Serious Eats post:

  139. 139
    HinTN says:

    @cope: Do you blame them?

  140. 140
    WaterGirl says:

    @raven: I was expecting something more like the early ones! I guess ours is the new standard. Oh well, food is great, I won’t complain.

  141. 141
    Another Scott says:

    @cain: Was this the Linus party, or have you already moved on from that? :-)


  142. 142
    WaterGirl says:

    @cain: Glad to hear it! What about the famous person who was going to be there? How did that go?

  143. 143
    germy says:


    This is a great source for cat nutrition info:

  144. 144
    WaterGirl says:

    @germy: I can’t do perfumes at all. I will be sure to give you the verdict on the wheat litter. My kitties took to the corn litter right away, so they don’t mind change. Will they like the wheat? who knows, but we’ll find out.

  145. 145
    Schlemazel says:

    Not the least bit surprised. My guess is that if you opened a Greek restaurant in China the food would be modified for Chinese tastes and a Greek wouldn’t recognize it. We have 2 Chinese places here that I am aware of that do things closer to original but I still see Chinese people getting stuff from the kitchen nobody else does.

    There has been a large influx of Central Americans over the last decade and it is now possible to get the real deal here for that stuff. There is even one place that, off menu, will do guinea pig with 24 hours notice. I have not brought myself to that yet but #1 son wants to do it so I suppose I will some day.

    Truth be told there are some foods I prefer the American version to the native one. A lot of that is simply what you are used to and thats OK too.

  146. 146
    cain says:

    @Another Scott:

    Yep! This was the Linus party. :) He showed up at my door with two bottles of wine. That was definitely a ‘fuck yeah’ moment. I tihnk at this point, it is safe to say we are friends. He was treated pretty much like anyone else at the party, but you know there is a little of ‘fanboism’ going on there. I’m thinking of doing a tiki party in August and see how big of a net I can spread. :D Although, I’m not going to cook like I did for this one.. I started 3 days in advance, and it was like 2 evenings and all day on Friday.

  147. 147
    ThresherK says:

    @mainmata: Could be. I also scribbled something about whole peeled plum tomatoes from Redpack and Muir Glen. (I don’t make source notes enough.)

  148. 148
    WaterGirl says:

    @germy: Thanks! My boy kitty has been on the special food for UTI and crystals, but I’m trying them both on this new diet. Somebody mentioned (on the earlier thread this week) that zucchini is good for cats. Not sure whether that would be cooked or raw, I think it might have been satby that talked about that, I will try to catch her.

  149. 149
    cain says:

    Truth be told there are some foods I prefer the American version to the native one. A lot of that is simply what you are used to and thats OK too.

    When I was in Beijjing I had the same issue, some stuff was really good, but others I didn’t care for, and preferred americanized chinese or better yet indianized chinese. I haven’t tried the southern chinese cooking, I never got a chance to back to China. :(

  150. 150
    Another Scott says:

    @cain: Excellent! Thanks for the report. We’ll get to say “I knew him when…” :-)


  151. 151
    cope says:


    HEE HEE, not in the slightest.

  152. 152
    lgerard says:


    Kimball certainly didn’t leave over money, he is very, very wealthy.

    The parent company brought in a bunch of marketing and business types and wanted to change some of the business practices to bring in more revenue and make Kimball more of a host and spokesman emeritus, He didn’t like that and left.

    He is supposedly starting a similarly styled operation in downtown Boston that combines a cooking school with a new PBS program, That is where the problem is as he still has an ownership stake in Cooks and he is essentially competing with himself.
    The guy doing the taste tests is no schmoe, He is one of the original developers of the magazine and the PBS shows. If you notice, these are recorded a bunch at a time in front of a live audience and then inserted into the program, they ham it up quite a bit for the audience’s sake,/

  153. 153
    satby says:

    @cain: next time you entertain I want to come, that all sounds great!

  154. 154
    satby says:

    @ThresherK: they’re the South Bend Cubs now, and a farm team for the Chicago cubbies. Was just there Wednesday night on a work outing, lovely park, decent game, and lots of great stuff to keep kids busy.
    And the Studebaker museum is fantastic!

  155. 155
    cain says:

    @Another Scott:

    Truth be told there are some foods I prefer the American version to the native one. A lot of that is simply what you are used to and thats OK too.

    Haha, definitely. :-) I remember first meeting him like 20 years ago at my employers auditorium and he was being fanboy’d and all that, and it seemed like some amazing famous person. If you had told me that the very same guy would be coming to a summer party at my house, I would have said you were crazy. Even crazier to know all the top kernel people… life is very strange. I’m not remotely that great of a programmer or anything. I do have a gift of bringing people together.. now if I could just land a job doing that..

  156. 156
    debbie says:


    I need to start thinking about SS. I don’t think I’ll ever have enough to be able to retire, but I’d like to be able to figure out my options. Do you have any recommendations of books or websites that would be good for this?

  157. 157
    cain says:


    @cain: next time you entertain I want to come, that all sounds great!

    Definitely invited if you’re in town. :) I love to entertain and easier when you have great friends. They went and washed all my dishes and pots and ran the dishwasher for me. Hardly any cleanup at all the next day.

  158. 158
    satby says:

    @WaterGirl: maybe WereBear, not me. Never tried zucchini for the cats.

  159. 159
    Gravenstone says:

    @divF: Calcium chloride is quite harmless in the trace amounts used. And if you use salt in even modestly ‘hard’ water, you’re creating it in whatever you cook.

  160. 160
    satby says:

    @debbie: some of the best info, including calculators, is right on the SSA website.

  161. 161
  162. 162
    Another Scott says:

    @cain: Neat. Networking with folks like him and them is a way to make it happen. Keep it up!

    Oh, your quote isn’t from me. I guess you got distracted. :-) It’s from Schlemazel


  163. 163
    WaterGirl says:

    @cain: remind me again who your famous person was and how you ended up inviting him to your party?

  164. 164
    cain says:

    @Another Scott: Oops! Sorry! :)

  165. 165
    Divf says:

    @Gravenstone: I agree Calcium chloride is not harmful. But when tomatoes are canned using it, they are much more resistant to breaking down, which is really bad for red sauce.

  166. 166
    ThresherK says:

    @satby: You just moved to that area this year, right? I remember the house pics.

    I shoulda known you’d be to the museum. Memories of the legacy homes (Oldsmobile in Lansing, AMC in Kenosha, etc.) still run deep. If I had the money and space for a project car, I wouldn’t mind a Hawk or a Lark from the early 60s.

  167. 167
    cain says:


    @cain: remind me again who your famous person was and how you ended up inviting him to your party?

    It was Linus Torvalds, the guy who started Linux, the media likes to portray him as a great among folks like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. But he’s really just a regular guy who is doing extraordinary things. As how to how I ended up inviting him, I basically was watching youtube videos, got inspired, and decided I wanted to have a party, mailed a friend of his, and then mailed him, and he accepted. He and I know each other from arguing over the open source project I represent – GNOME and so for him and a lot of others, I am an unofficial representative of the project. I think what I didn’t realize was that he considered me a friend too and he clearly loves indian food which I am sure was a primary motivator there.

  168. 168
    jl says:


    ” Gravy is grey, it even has grey in the name. Could be brown but a greyish brown. ”

    Man, I could have written a comment as ridiculous as that.

    Thanks to the other commenters (not BiilingG) for informative responses.

  169. 169
    chigail says:

    @raven: we lived at 908 Nevada. REO Speedwagon lived downstairs and once Jefferson Airplane played there after a concert in the Assembly Hall. Building survived until about five years ago I think.

  170. 170
    Keith P. says:

    There are two secrets to good “Sunday gravy” IMO. The first, which I picked up from Godfather and Goodfellas, is to layer the flavors. Browned meat, grilled onions (instead of sugar), deglaze meat bits with red wine, fresh + dry herbs, etc. And a variety of meat (I start with browning some garlic in oil, then render pancetta, brown some Italian sausage, brown some reasonably elaborate meatballs, then sautee the onions, add more garlic, and on-and-on
    But secret #2 I learned after researching why my San Marzano tomatoes underwhelmed me…I came across a ranking of canned tomatoes, and mine ranked either last or next to it (metallic taste). I changed to their #1 (Sclafani), and it improved my sauce by a mile.

  171. 171
    debbie says:



  172. 172
    SgrAstar says:

    @cain: Linus Torvalds is a total gun! Your party sounds like it was really fun…and that’s on YOU, >>>>> than the food. The host makes the party!

  173. 173
    J R in WV says:


    You need to send your recipes to TaMara for Sunday Cooking posts!!!

    I love chutneys, all of them. We have 2 Indian restaurants in town, one excellent, and one was good, but recently the founder owner sold to some guys from Michigan, Pakistani, and the food has gone downhill. But Sitar is still really good. Lamb Vindaloo….ummm.

  174. 174
    Betty Cracker says:

    @WaterGirl: We decided to stay put for the foreseeable future, so I’m still in my original tiki bar. Well, it’s actually tiki bar 2.0; our original was at our first house! If we do end up moving, we’ll definitely do 3.0!

    I’ll have to hunt down that recipe for Italian beef. Haven’t made it in a while. It’s based on a roast that you cook the hell out of until it falls apart and various other ingredients.

  175. 175
    J R in WV says:


    My Dad was a Studebaker driver until about 1969, when his beloved convertible needed a valve job, and there was no dealer to do the work. So he traded it in on a Ford Torino convertible. Nice, but not the same.


    You work on Gnome, and Linus at your party? Too cool… I’m a user, not a builder, so congratulations on a great set of tools. Linux wouldn’t be much without Gnome and the other user interfaces. I run Ubuntu lately. Kubuntu, Mint, etc. Debian once a while ago. But Ubuntu for quite a while now.

    I can use the command line, but I have to look things up. It reminds me of back when I was in college, way before Linux. VAX and Amdahl running IBM. Nothing like today’s tools!

  176. 176
    raven says:

    @chigail: I lived at Oregon and Vine and the on Urbana Street. I suppose that was the Airplane concert where they had about 500 counterfeit tickets that were all for the same seat? I also recall that they made us sit down for that show and I marked the beginning of the end for me and rock concerts for many years. I was part of the Record Service posse and we saw REO as kind of glitter people.

  177. 177
    seaboogie says:

    @Betty Cracker: The fennel and chili flakes make it sound super-deliciously Italian for me – that elusive perfect taste of the fennel, and the throat-tickle of the chili – all about nuance and layers of flavor and experience for the palate.

  178. 178
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @Just One More Canuck: @ThresherK: We’re back from the game. The Fuego were leading until the wheels fell off in the seventh. It was a great evening for a baseball game. One of my favorite minor league team names is the Albuquerque Isotopes. They have a nice little ballpark too, with a splendid view of the Sandia Mountains.

  179. 179
    Librarian says:

    Don’t put too many onions in the sauce.

  180. 180
    JMG says:

    1. Ms. Cracker, that looks deliciou!
    2. From a different aspect of Italian-American culture (although the Italian food in Providence can’t be beat), saw the live stage show of the podcast Crimetown, in which mobsters (and one cop!) from Rhode Island in the 60s-early 90s do their oral history. Amazing show, which banged out the moderately large Wilbur Theater in Boston, but what was most amazing was the crowd. I thought they’d all be all suburban totebaggers like me or urban hipsters like my son who got the tickets, but a sizable percentage were guys in their 20s who, well, were acolytes. They’ll be on stage when Crimetown 2050 goes on tour. Lot of them in our section. Nice fellas.

  181. 181
    BruceJ says:

    Don’t waste your money on ‘San Marzano’ tomatoes:

    Just use regular canned whole tomatoes and fresh basil…

  182. 182
    cope says:

    @chigail: @chigail:

    Are you talking about the building next to the train station and ice cream place? I lived in it in the mid 70s. We had to move out when it got turned into condos.

  183. 183
    AnonPhenom says:

    Sauce is always better the next day, so I made tomorrow’s gravy today

    You did that on purpose. Mixer.
    This is a great one.

  184. 184
    WaterGirl says:

    @cain: A day late getting back, but just in case – thanks for the backstory. So glad your party was a success.

  185. 185
    WaterGirl says:

    @Betty Cracker: Again, a day late getting back, but let me know if you find the recipe.

Comments are closed.