Why aren’t Ryan/McConnell rushing out to say Russia interfered in election?
Better Q: when Obama asked to go public why wouldn’t they?
— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) July 8, 2017
One might wonder if they had been assured Russians wouldn’t hurt their candidates but would hurt Dems https://t.co/JMZZSZ7xle
— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) July 8, 2017
.
Apart from keeping in mind that half our nation’s “leadership” cares more about their current perqs than the future of the godsdamned country, what’s on the agenda for the evening?
And the GOP was so disturbed McConnell told Obama that if he exposed the Russian operation, they'd blame the Dems for stealing the election.
— Eric Garland (@ericgarland) July 9, 2017
The implication of the Trump-Putin meeting is that there will be no deterrent to the Kremlin's next election hacks. https://t.co/4F63uxvWqH
— Spencer Ackerman (@attackerman) July 7, 2017
Clapper: Next time, Russians could go after Republicans. I wish people would remember, “this is an assault on us.” https://t.co/sYFU07Qhma
— CNN (@CNN) July 6, 2017
— ???B??TY (@SHABOOTY) July 9, 2017
rikyrah
traitors.
all of them
trollhattan
Trumpian and Republican perfidy WRT all things Russian make this article on Nixon’s shenanigans with the South Vietnamese seem all the more galling. We really don’t learn from our mistakes.
MisterForkbeard
@rikyrah: Alternately – we know the Russians hacked various Republicans and republican campaigns.
Maybe they were assured that Russians wouldn’t hurt their candidates so long as they kept the whole thing quiet.
tobie
@rikyrah: For some time now I’ve thought that the only reason GOP Reps and Senators don’t want to look into Russian election meddling is that they know they owe their seats to the Russians, too.
TenguPhule
@rikyrah: Treason does not prosper and here’s the reason, if it does prosper, none dare call it treason.
Traitor’s Reward for every Republican. Every. Single. One.
Major Major Major Major
“Still better than Killary,” according to a friend’s facebook friends.
The Moar You Know
@TenguPhule: Kinda warming up to the idea that the death penalty for having cooperated with the Russians in the 2016 elections really needs to be on the table. Ryan and McConnell were specifically warned.
Again, I am horrified by Obama’s response as well. This transcends “winning elections”. Wars have started for far less.
Major Major Major Major
@The Moar You Know: Tengu probably means being dragged through the streets from the back of a horse without the benefit of a trial.
The Moar You Know
@Major Major Major Major: Y’know what? If Dems pull the same “off the table” shit they did in 2006 (or 1975 for that matter) I’m going to join him. We have let two presidents get away with serious crimes without even writing them a damn ticket, much less going through a trial. This MUST stop. And Dems are the ones who have to stop rolling over and “letting bygones be bygones”.
Major Major Major Major
@The Moar You Know: I would be rather surprised if they did. Very different situations. ETA: this comment written when the one it was responding to was only two sentences about Bush.
MisterForkbeard
@Major Major Major Major: Yep. And I just saw a bunch of people responding to a white house press release about the G20 summit, saying “I’m so glad America is being respected in the world again! So much winning, and he’s only been at it for 6 months!”
This HAS to be bots, people can’t possibly be that stupid. Unless they watch Fox, I guess.
ruemara
@Major Major Major Major: Fuck that person’s friends.
@The Moar You Know: I agree. This needs a massive purge.
khead
@Major Major Major Major:
Yeah. I see a lot of this. Getting through to those folks requires a bunker buster.
The Moar You Know
@Major Major Major Major: No argument here. I agree.
I would like to point out that had we not let Nixon or Bush slide, we would not be sitting here discussing the latest shenanigans of Team Trump, because there would have been no interference. Hell, Trump would not have run in the first place. Not with a precedent that says “you too can and will go to jail.”
Major Major Major Major
@MisterForkbeard: I’ve still got a few lefty morons (actual friends, not dumbass FOAF’s like I mentioned above) on my facebook feed who are glad to see american hegemony coming to an end or whatever, but for the most part even the staunchest anti-pax-americana folks have come around to realize that they’ll like what comes next even less.
ETA: The overlap between said ‘let it burn’ types and people who I’ve seen gulp homeopathic remedies by the handful while railing against big research and big pharma and the FDA for being greedy and corrupt is roughly 90%.
Brachiator
@Major Major Major Major:
Still? After all the revelations and demonstrations of Trump incompetence? Wow.
Somebody asked, in relation to some news story headline, what I would do if Trump showed himself to be a good leader. I said that, for example, if a magical, engaged Trump told the Republican leadership that the Obamacare replacement had to be better than Obamacare, and he retained taxes, and improved the premium issues for single and self-employed people, if in short he actually improved Obamacare and guided the legislation, then I would have to applaud and support him.
But this magical Trump does not exist.
Similarly, Evil Hillary does not exist. I have never found a statement or policy position directly out of her mouth that demonstrates that she would be the “warmonger” that idiots claim that she would be.
NotMax
@The Moar You Know
*cough* Reagan/Bush. Iran-CONTRA .*cough*
Also too.
Alain the site fixer
@The Moar You Know: or Reagan or Bush. Ever since Nixon, we’ve let a series of treasonous acts happen without appropriate punishment. EACH Republican president since has committed high crimes. We sold our soul to win the Cold War, and all it cost us was our soul.
catclub
@NotMax: I noticed that also. Gerald Ford pardoning Nixon was the start.
Patricia Kayden
It’s pretty obvious that the Russians told Republicans that while both party’s computers had been hacked, only information detrimental to Democrats would be released. I’ll never forget watching Bill Maher’s show with Assange pretty much boasting that he was going after Clinton and just Clinton.
@Major Major Major Major: You have lovely friends.
Mike in DC
DC is going to be a sweatbox this week. High 90s, approaching 100.
I think there is kompromat on members of the establishment GOP, or at least that the members are afraid there is, and they’re in no rush to call Putins bluff by moving against Trump.
tobie
@Brachiator: There’s really no bottom to Hillary hate. I’ve never seen anything like it. She’s a bogeyman to the left and the right. Two leftist friends have told me, “She employed slave labor in Arkansas in the governor’s mansion” and “She let her brother run a plantation in Haiti.” This all feels so personal. (I mean their antipathy for her.) I really don’t know why she’s evil incarnate to so many on the fringe left. I wish I had some insight into what drives this. Yes, it’s misogyny but I can’t imagine the same fierce rage toward, say, someone like Sally Yates.
Timurid
@Major Major Major Major:
“Killary?” Compared to the guy who’s spent his entire life mingling with the sleaziest fringes of the building trades, the New York Mob, the Bratva and assorted white supremacist gangs? I’d bet real money that Trump has had people killed in the past…
Oatler.
What is The Corporation’s definition of treason?
The Moar You Know
@Brachiator: I know a few too and yeah, they’re going down with the SS Bernie and the band is going to play them all out. Anyone but Hitlery. Trump was a far superior choice to her.
I thought a fair number of them were under the impression that we’d “learn our lesson” but I was wrong – it’s not even that. They didn’t get their toy for Christmas and just want everything to burn as a consequence. I honestly don’t know what you do with people like that, as you can’t bar them from voting.
Brachiator
@MisterForkbeard:
I’ve mentioned this before, but the biggest English language talk radio station would cover Obama’s foreign travels and their purpose on their official news segments, but would never talk about Obama’s reception in the countries he visited. And the various hosts, with a couple of exceptions, would only talk about the foreign trip if Obama made some gaffe, no matter how minor. Then they would talk about how Obama and the US was not respected.
Of course, if you watched other news sources, you would see how admired and well regarded Obama was. But not on this station. Now, I cannot prove that the news directors and program management colluded to make sure that a neutral to negative impression of Obama was conveyed to their listeners. But this is certainly what happened, and it was deliberately shaped that way as much by the “objective” news reporting as by the opinions of the talk show hosts.
So, I can easily see how Trump is consistently made to look triumphant by those who want to prop him up.
Roger Moore
Republicans: Only if we stop cooperating with them.
Major Major Major Major
@Patricia Kayden:
Hey, 90% of everything is crap, I’m way under that with my friends!
The Moar You Know
@catclub: No, Nixon being allowed to resign rather than face impeachment was the start. Ford’s pardon was the end of the destruction of American law and order, not the beginning.
trollhattan
@Mike in DC:
Holy crap, that sounds miserable, even to somebody who endured a brace of 107-degree days last week, frosted with enough ozone to turn two-million lungs into lung jerky. .
Baud
@The Moar You Know: How do you keep a president from resigning?
AxelFoley
@The Moar You Know:
Just curious, but what do you propose he should’ve done?
Baud
@tobie:
Hillary hate has had a long time to simmer and become a social acceptable aspect of civic discourse.
JPL
@The Moar You Know: I miss Nixon.. He at least created an agency to clean rivers and lakes.
Roger Moore
@tobie:
They don’t want to look into Russian election meddling because they’re afraid of what any such investigation would find. I don’t know if that’s because they know what there is to find or they only suspect, but either way, they believe it will not work to their political advantage.
Major Major Major Major
@JPL: Other than the light treason, and many parts of his domestic agenda, other parts of his domestic agenda were pretty progressive!
trollhattan
@JPL:
He didn’t create it. He signed the law knowing a veto would be overridden.
At least Nixon knew what a law was.
geg6
@Baud:
They made a deal with him. GOP senators went to the WH and told he better resign or he’d be impeached.
ETA: He wasn’t planning on resigning before that. Staff thought he should and were prepared for it, but he wasn’t on board with it.
Baud
@geg6: What do you think would have happened if they didn’t inform him in advance? He would have found out sooner or later.
ETA:. Just read your ETA.
The Moar You Know
@Baud: You DON’T send a committee down from the Senate and tell him “we have the votes and you go to trial in a week unless you resign”. You fucking show up and say “trial starts in five minutes, asshole. Be there or go to jail.”
@AxelFoley: You go public, lay out the case, and arrest some motherfuckers and let McConnell, Ryan, and the GOP squeal. Worst case scenario, they believe the GOP instead of you and..oh, I guess we’re living the worst case result already, aren’t we?
Roger Moore
@tobie:
I think there are two big reasons:
1) The fringe left sees Bill Clinton’s third way politics of the 1990s as an enormous betrayal and they have never stopped hating the Clinton family for it.
2) The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy has been demonizing Hillary for 25+ years, and even people who should know better have bought into some of what they’re selling.
geg6
@Baud:
They made a deal. Do I know that for a fact? No, but I’m completely sure they made one and promised that Ford would pardon him.
Baud
@The Moar You Know:
That would have been preferable, but he still could have resigned after the trial began.
Baud
@Roger Moore:
I hope it was worth it to them.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: They hate neoliberals but have no idea what it actually means. BS supporter Applejinx was here yesterday, demonstrating this.
geg6
@Baud:
Then the federal court would have taken over. They had him dead to rights on obstruction, among many other federal crimes.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: Fuck off. I have consistently called for them to be given a fair trial, conviction, sentencing and execution. Either the rule of law means something or it means nothing.
Baud
@geg6: Right. But that’s where Ford’s pardon comes in.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: Or just resigned in four minutes. It’s not like you have to summon the resignation wizards and wait for a resignation wizard quorum and then start chanting the lengthy resignation spell.
Roger Moore
@Baud:
Just remember: The Revolution will never start until everything is so awful the masses rise up to overthrow the existing order. Trying to make things better will only delay the necessary bloodletting./leftwingnut
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@MisterForkbeard:
Brendbart readers. From what I’ve even Fox won’t go into an alterntive reality like Brenbart does. I was reading a pack Brendbarters that was claiming the economy was in recession until Trump got elected and over night it started booming. Anyone who belives the US economy can do that is beyond stupid.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat: I think Hillary Hate provides a good litmus test for political trustworthiness.
tobie
@Baud: I think you’re right that the attacks against her have gone on for decades and that’s made any and every question about her / attack on her acceptable in ways that would not be true for other politicians. But I still feel like there’s something else going on–at least from the left. The left for instance hates moderate Dems like Claire McCaskill but they do at times cut her some slack. The thing I keep coming back to is that HRC is not a natural politician–someone who loves being in the limelight–and maybe that gives people the feeling they’re free to vilify her in whatever way they want.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule:
Before or after the bloody civil war? So hard to keep the calls for violence straight.
TenguPhule
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
That’s half of Wall Street then.
The other half are robbing them blind.
geg6
@Baud:
He may not have done it at that point. As I said above, I am 100% convinced that they made a deal that Ford was guaranteed to pardon him if he resigned. No doubt in my mind about it. Without the deal, no pardon.
JPL
@trollhattan: I forgot that part, so thanks.
Baud
@Roger Moore: So any day now?
I swear the Revolution is the left’s version of the Second Coming.
Betsy
Someone wrote a really great comment in a thread yesterday or last night about the big dynamic picture – the global oligarchy that is mechanically seizing more and more power over democratic processes to shrink the state, and international alliances, because they are the only obstacle to the oligarchy’s total control over everyone and everything. At least, that’s how I read it at 2:00 a.m., and it seemed really, really important at the time.
Who wrote that? Does anyone know what the hell I’m talking about, or did I dream that comment?!
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Brachiator:
That’s because you don’t see the world like a Che T-shirt in two simple black and white colors.
Baud
@tobie: I don’t buy that. I really think it’s because they never encountered any push back so they learned to hate her. It’s like spoiling a child by never saying no.
Gvg
@Baud: you can have a trial even if someone resigns. Now impeachment is political and being stupid or careless or having strong suspicions that someone has not acted in the interests of our country are different issues than actual laws and evidence.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
Its because we’re not getting those trials that we’re getting a Civil War.
When the law is flouted to the extent that High Treason means nothing next to “But her Emails!” and the brownshirts are getting more crazy, not less after seizing power, then what happens next is bloody predictable,
We can’t have a civil society with this shit. We just can’t.
Roger Moore
@geg6:
And how, exactly, were the Democrats supposed to stop this?
Baud
@geg6: Yeah. Fair argument.
Major Major Major Major
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: But Che t-shirts are black and red.
Roger Moore
@Baud:
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my
FatherBernie only.ETA: More seriously, it is a lot like the Second Coming. The failure of The Revolution to arrive is only a sign that things haven’t gotten bad enough yet, so we need to work on making them worse. The Revolution can never fail, only be failed.
Baud
@Gvg: Well, I suppose Congress could have gone through the motions, but the only penalty for impeachment is removal from office. Although impeachment does make the crime unpardonable, I believe.
TenguPhule
@The Moar You Know:
I wish BJ had a recommend function at times like this.
Ladyraxterinok
@The Moar You Know: But…but….but… The country/the people could not endure the revelation of what actually happened!!! This is the excuse for failing to pursue the investogation of every disaster. The Warren Commision goal was to report something bland as quickly as possible. And remember the delays, the footdragging in the attempt to investigate 9/11(IIRC, no oath to tell the truth, W did not appear alone, etc). And the delay in the release of the torture photos and then the non-release of most of them. The basic fear seems to be that if ‘we the people’ ever learn the truth about what has happened/is happening, our country will collapse.
Yutsano
@tobie: She was excoriated on the campaign trail in 1992. She steadfastly refused to shut up and be the “good politician wife” but instead insisted on having her own career even when Clinton was guv. “I refuse to bake cookies and have teas” was one of the first weapons used against her. Then he had her head up the healthcare disaster (that was part his naïvete and part his internal sabotage against her he seems to have always had) which led to screams to being an “unelected advisor” and such. That started it all. It got worse. Much worse.
TenguPhule
@Ladyraxterinok:
If our country is truly that weak, its long overdue for burning.
JDM
Yeah sure, Clapper, “next time Russia could go after Republicans”. Why on earth would they? For something to do when they get bored?
bystander
@Baud:
I stopped listening to Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me because of Peter Sagal’s gratuitous, incessant and unfunny smears on HRC last year. Can’t say I miss it.
If you think that TengUPhule can’t limn out a torture particularly appropriate to the individual offender and class of offense, you haven’t been reading him regularly.
NotMax
@Major Major Major Major
it’s a matter of record that the resignation statement was already written out and ready to go, the ink well dried, before the congressmen’s trek up the street (note that it reads “effective noon tomorrow” rather than giving a date specific).
They may have sped up the process a bit, however the inevitably was extant.
Roger Moore
@Baud:
Not quite. The president’s pardon power does not extend to cases of impeachment, but that means that a pardon can’t keep somebody in office in the face of impeachment and conviction. A pardon can still protect somebody who has been impeached from going to prison (or any of the other negative effects of a conviction).
Baud
@Yutsano:
So she’s responsible for Ivanka!
Aimai
@tobie: no. Thats dumb. They hate her because she was an important and potentially dangerous political woman–they don’t cut such women slack. If they “cut claire mcaskill slack” its because she will never have a national profile. When will you people fucking learn to stop victim blaming:all of the sttacks on hillary and the second order rationalizations of them are toxic, right and left wing misigyny and hatred of an effective, historic, progressive woman.
TenguPhule
@Roger Moore:
Well, most of them. But if the law means nothing, then what can you do?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
the weekend update bros were pretty bad too, IIRC, and then all “Wha’ happened?” on the first show after the election
Baud
@Roger Moore: Yes, I think you are correct. Thanks.
@Aimai: I agree, but I don’t think it explains the left wing hate to say that they are afraid of a strong, progressive woman. Unless you are saying that such left wingers are really right wingers when it comes to misogyny, which I can see.
geg6
@Roger Moore:
They couldn’t. Obviously, since it happened. I don’t blame Democrats for it. Republicans were and are completely responsible for the turn away from a rule of law then and ever since. Some events could have gone differently if Dems had pushed back harder (Iran Contra, for instance), but they have been bit players in this compared to the GOP.
TenguPhule
@Aimai:
In all fairness, my criticisms of her had to do with her weaknesses as a leader. Good when she’s prepared, but poor at thinking on her feet when caught by surprise. Let’s not pretend she was perfect, but she was still better then the rest of them.
Betsy
@Betsy: I found it:
https://balloon-juice.com/2017/07/09/the-words-you-are-looking-for-are-traitor-and-collusion/#comment-6460294
Still a bad dream.
Betsy
@Aimai: so true
Baud
@TenguPhule: Imperfect doesn’t explain the vitriolic level of hate, especially on the left, which is what we’re discussing.
TenguPhule
@Baud: Just so we’re clear that not every criticism of her was hate or personal. At times it gets lost in the jackal snarling here.
Baud
@TenguPhule: No one is above criticism. But I also think the critic should be aware of context. If other people are going bat-shit insane with their attacks, then the critic who insists on joining the fray with a “reasonable” critique should not be surprised to get caught up in the blowback.
bemused
@MisterForkbeard:
Ha, an old white guy, mid to late 70’s, has a teeny, tiny weekly local paper and he crowed about Trump being so respected around the world in his editorial a couple of weeks ago. He has to be tuned into the same wingnut media. This guy was not thrilled with Trump earlier in the campaign but over time it was easy to see him change his tune which was totally predictable. By the time Trump “won”, he caved like most Republicans do. He is a vet that didn’t see action during Korean War iirc but he’s not bothered by the Russia thing, Trump’s sex assault suits, etc. It’s all lies and fake news.
jl
I suppose the GOP is thinking that, naw, Putin/Russia won’t come after us in the next election.
The GOP leadership might have a point. On the other hand, if Putin/Russia ever needs the US government to actually do something in the real world besides cave, fumble, and wander around in confusion, then they might dump the GOP.
News reports say that the Trumpsters tried to get the sanctions lifted in return for nothing, and failed due to the sinister machinations of the US Deep State (aka, some semblance of rule of law). Putin might decide at some point he can’t get a freebie on the sanctions and needs to deal with someone who can get some legislation passed, negotiate a deal rather than sputter and flail, and actually perform in the meat space. That won’t be Trump. But I can see Putin hanging in their for 2018 and 2020. I can imagine economic problems changing his mind.
For voters, need to keep pressing Congress and tie them up in knots to keep their disastrous plans at bay. Keep pestering state and local officials to keep elections honest, or at least not less honest than they are now because of foreign interference. Delay can be very effective for the midterms in 2018. Rigging US elections nationally is hard due to so much control and oversight at state and local level. And Trumpster plans seldom survive encounters with reality. And they don’t regroup and redouble efforts behind a coherent set of goals and plans, they cave, confuse themselves, lash out, waste time with useless PR stunts, and fumble and bumble
For the time being we need to resist their efforts, and find some joy in the sheer self-expression and satisfaction in the spectacle of confusion within their ranks, the weeping and lamentations of their political operatives, flunkies and thugs.
ruemara
@Betsy: It’s an accurate assessment. And don’t think it’s done yet. When one of the podcasters I like listening to starts talking about listening to a new podcast from Radio Sputnik, it means FSB knows it didn’t do enough to get POC to vote against their best interests. So it seems minority led podcasts spreading “both sides” using the valid feelings of disenfranchisement with a heaping dose of ignorance is on the menu for 2018.
tobie
@Aimai: I’m not blaming her. I’m trying to figure out why the hate for HRC on the left is so fierce–and as I mentioned earlier, so personal. The leitmotif in comments like “She had slaves working in the Arkansas governor’s mansion” and somehow she arranged for her brother “to run a plantation in Haiti” is that she’s as evil as slaveowners in the Antebellum south. I don’t get it given her history of working hard for progressive causes, and I haven’t seen the same hate for other female politicians with presidential ambitions like Elizabeth Warren. Who knows…if she’s on the ticket in 2020 we may see left-wingers go after her, too.
Jeffro
@tobie: it’s mostly that she’s been the right’s punching bag for nearly 40 years. It’s why the Rs fell in line, even behind as catastrophically bad a candidate – she has been History’s Greatest Monster for decades; there’s no way to back off that epic battle
TenguPhule
@jl:
That would require Nigerian prince email level stupid.
Who would…….Oh.
TenguPhule
@jl:
Well, aside from shredding the EPA, trying to sell off the strategic reserve and the impending collapse of our federal debt financing, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?
Millard Filmore
@Baud:
Another possible outcome of this glorious revolution is we end up similar to North Korea.
Major Major Major Major
@tobie:
WE TRUSTED YOU!
See above.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
The ignorance and stupidity (and lack of intellectual curiosity in some people) is stunning and damaging.
There are knuckleheads on the far left, of course — those who thought Jill Stein was a solid candidate and don’t trust vaccine science.
There are (it appears) farrrr more idiots on the right (who also are fearful, resentful bigots).
And, of course, there are those “undecideds” who still can’t say for sure if Hitler was a bad fellow.
Far more people watch The Kardashians than watched Cosmos.
There are simply a certain number of human beings who function and perhaps contribute some useful good but who are likely a net drag due to their idiocy.
Roger Moore
@Baud:
There are people who favor progressive economic policies like universal healthcare while still having regressive social views. Some of them are probably unwilling to admit to themselves who regressive their social views are. People like that are going to hide their animosity toward strong women like Hillary by finding other excuses to hate them, and one of the functions of right wing character assassination is to give them those excuses.
TenguPhule
@Millard Filmore:
Mexico and Canada would invade us first.
tobie
@Major Major Major Major: Oh gosh, I forgot about that moment at the convention. Pretty ugly.
jl
@Betsy: Thanks. Interesting comment.
I have partial responses to it. One is that many multi-national corporations depend on state power, and some kind of international legal and economic order for their prosperity. As just one example, a large fraction of corporate value and profit depends upon an modern intellectual property rights that has international reach.
Second, corporate and financial power is less unified than in the past, and that divide drives different blocs of nations to take different paths. Do the oiligarchs that drive much of Russia’s economy and the Trump agenda have enough power to sway the global economy? The initial actions of Macron and Merkel in the EU, and China, India and other countries in the Paris accords show that they are not going to simply fall apart because the UK and US are walking away, which is contrary to what the Trumpster’s excuse for Dr. Evil, Bannon, expected. The rest of the world shows signs that they are quite willing to come together to forge a constructive path forward and the UK, US and Russia can sit out and fall behind if they want. Barring military catastrophe, I think that is what will happen. If the UK and US can shake off their political sickness quickly enough, they’ll be able to catch up. If not, our post-Empire national life will be very shabby and downscale.
Frankensteinbeck
@tobie:
You guys really underestimate just how vivid and terrifying it is to conservatives that white rule is teetering on the brink. If they lost the Supreme Court, they would have lost gerrymandering and vote suppression, and the GOP would be fucked. Their entire way of life hinged on an election they lost by 2.8 million votes but got the official win because of cheating.
@The Moar You Know:
The precedent would have said ‘Republicans can do whatever they want with the official approval of the Supreme Court. You are not merely not being prosecuted, you are immune to it. Go wreck shit.’ Kinda happy we avoided that.
Baud
@Millard Filmore: You are completely misreading
RevelationsRevolutions.@Roger Moore: Agreed.
CarolDuhart2
@Ladyraxterinok: Tired of fearmongering about the Warren Commission. Lee Harvey Oswald was a typical abuser who wanted fame-no different than later mass shooters.
I remember the time of Nixon’s resignation very well. Not thrilled, but in the context of the upheaval of the 1960’s, I can see why Ford did it. Kennedy’s assassination, LBJ’s refusal to run for another term, and the controversies between had pretty much agitated a nation. Nixon’s going away quietly was seen as a way to go forward peacefully. And looking back, I can imagine it would have been hard to seat a jury that was trusted by both sides-and even then, only half of America would have accepted a verdict. A Nixon who felt persecuted would have stirred up too much animosity for either party to move on to new leadership.
So resignation and pardon would have been seen as the lesser of two evils. No government gridlock, no Nixon riling up supporters and wanting some revenge (which considering the previous decade, could get quite nasty)
Another Scott
ICYMI – BooMan at WaMo – Trump’s Inner Circle Met With No Ordinary Russian Lawyer:
It all goes back to Russian money – not hacking. The hacking was a way to protect the money…
Cheers,
Scott.
Frankensteinbeck
@tobie:
I can tell you from experience interacting with them that the Left, even some of the more sane, really resent the Hell out of black people thinking Sanders is not a civil rights hero.
bemused
@Frankensteinbeck:
They don’t realize that whites will be a minority in just a few years?
CarolDuhart2
@Frankensteinbeck: Of course, they wouldn’t think so. Where was Sanders after the 1960’s. and even during it, regarding civil rights? And whatever he may have done, it was almost nothing compared to a lot of people who risked more and suffered more. And once he went to Vermont, he was absent completely.
Frankensteinbeck
@bemused:
That is EXACTLY what they realize, way more viscerally than we do. It A) terrifies them, and B) only cheating can keep them in control. It’s the only thing that has kept their control this time. So they are increasingly insane and increasingly throwing in on cheating. They have no motivation to do anything but embrace Putin.
ThresherK
@tobie: I’ve seen leftier-than-thous living in Massachusetts promise to primary Elizabeth Warren. From the left.
I’ll let that sink in.
jl
@Another Scott: Thanks for the links. The whole Trump/Russian connection is tied up with the possibility (or probability, or high probability?) and a lot of the Trump real estate empire was floated by business from Russian money launderers over last decade.
Millard Filmore
@TenguPhule:
That is oddly reassuring.
tobie
@Frankensteinbeck: Actually that’s kind of illuminating regarding this particular attack, which I’ve heard from three friends. They are not crazy people but the remark is batshit insane so it may have to do with a perceived slight of their hero.
Aleta
Alhough last night Trumpovitch contradicted what he’d said the day before about the June 16 meeting, what he accomplished was seeding the idea that the Russians were helping the DNC and Hilary. Trump the Biggest seemed to the be preparing for this idea–he wailed about why Obama ignored Russian and hinted it might have been to help Hilary. Wonder if they’re hoping to construct a media defense out of fake evidence or just doubt about who Russians helped.
dww44
@Roger Moore: In my mind, this primary reason that HRC lost:
Years of smearing by RW media convinced far too many people that she was evil incarnate and unfortunately for her and for us, she didn’t possess the political charisma that would have won the masses over to her side and enabled her to overcome the lying and evil descriptors attached to her and her candidacy.
CarolDuhart2
I have an alternative theory on the Trump Presidential run. Trump had for years talked about a run, and didn’t. He dosen’t like the job, uninterested in policy. But he owes Russia billions. Russia saw that he was nearing 70 and was worried that he could die, leaving them holding the bag. How to get paid back? Get him in a position to loot the Federal Treasury and steer some lucrative contracts to them, lift the sanctions in exchange for some debt forgiveness.
bemused
@Frankensteinbeck:
Yes, but I still can’t quite grasp why they are so damn terrified. They can’t stop how American’s attitudes and views are changing no matter which party is in power. Younger people are less likely to be homophobics, climate change deniers, sexists, misogynists and so on. They can’t force people to go to church or join their religion. They can’t force family members from leaving them for more liberal pastures. Do they actually think they can halt inevitable change and life will be just as they want it to be?
Major Major Major Major
@bemused:
They’d like to have that ability, though.
Roger Moore
@CarolDuhart2:
My gut feeling about the Warren Commission is that the conspiracy theorists are guilty of a classic fallacy: assuming that flawed reasoning guarantees wrong conclusions. The Warren Commission rushed to conclude that Oswald acted alone because that was what they wanted to believe, but that rush to a predetermined conclusion doesn’t mean they were wrong.
SatanicPanic
@bemused: Don’t be so sure. America started integrating right after the Civil War, but they managed to reverse that movement and kept it reversed for almost 100 years.
Aleta
@MisterForkbeard: There also seem to be a slew of Christian bots that quote scripture like mad underneath tweets of the most incriminating news. Even during the campaign, when Trump was in the most trouble they would set him down inside a church or give him a piece of paper with a sentence out of the bible on it. Now that young Trumpovitch is the decoy duck luring hunters away from Jared, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him and his family walking up some evangelical church steps next Sunday.
bemused
@Major Major Major Major:
Sure they would but if they think trying to force all Americans to fall in line with them and their way of life would be a piece of cake, they are insane.
Major Major Major Major
@bemused: To be fair it’s well known that they are in fact insane.
Roger Moore
@dww44:
Yes, the years of slander have definitely hurt Hillary, but I don’t think they would have been as successful if people hadn’t been looking for an excuse to dislike her.
bemused
@SatanicPanic:
I just started reading The Warmth of Other Suns by Isabel Wilkerson about the Great Migration of southern African Americans getting out of the south beginning in WWI to about 1970’s. I’m reading in small doses. It’s a lot to take in, the horror. 15,000 men, women, children gathered to watch 18 year old Jesse Washington be burned alive in Waco Texas, 1916.
bemused
@Major Major Major Major:
Batshit crazy.
dww44
@Roger Moore: Yep. Sadly I must agree.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@geg6: Nixon thought he wouldn’t be convicted in the Senate, Goldwater, et al, told him he would be convicted; then he decided to resign.
TenguPhule
@bemused:
Yes, SATSQ.
Roger Moore
@bemused:
They know how whites behaved when we were in total control, and they’re afraid we’ll get the same when we lose that control.
TenguPhule
@Roger Moore: You will be spared.
SatanicPanic
@bemused: That book is amazing, but so heavy. Some parts of it were just terrifying. Along those lines there’s a good one called Sundown Towns that details how white Americans drove black people out of towns they’d been living in for decades around the turn of the century. Then they redlined everything in the 40s so no one could move. F*cked up stuff these people did.
bemused
@Roger Moore:
Something that should have occurred to them before they decided to beat down people viciously. Far rightwingers never do that tho.
bemused
@SatanicPanic:
That’s another book on my list to get.
I’m only on page 55 in Other Suns and can see it will be heavy all the way which is why I’m alternating with a light novel. So much heavy shit going on in current time, I can only take so much.
The fucked up people doing the fucked up shit don’t ever seem to catch on or rarely that they are also negatively impacted by the evil they do. It’s there but they can’t see it. Probably why they spend so much effort trying to snuff out the history.
SiubhanDuinne
@Timurid:
If he hasn’t personally, he can’t be more than one degree of separation from someone who has.
SiubhanDuinne
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
We are all (at least, those of us of a certain age, and I would hope even the young’uns) very familiar with the image of Nixon standing in the helicopter door, his arms raised, his fingers on both hands flashing the V for Victory sign.
What I had never seen until a day or two ago (and dammit, I can’t remember now where I saw it or I’d give credit) is a photo taken from inside the helicopter. Nixon is just readying himself to shake hands with almost-President Ford, Pat is embracing Betty Ford, Tricia and Ed Cox, and Julie and David Eisenhower, are stoically walking past blank-faced military guards. It’s an extraordinary picture, and if some Front Pager wants to post it, I’ll gladly forward it by email (I don’t have a photo account that allows me to post a link directly).
TenguPhule
@Oatler.:
Losing company money.
J R in WV
@bemused:
Whites won’t be a majority n a few years. That won’t matter if people who aren’t white can’t vote, will it?
bemused
@J R in WV:
Nope but it’s not going to be a walk in the park for the perps, imo.
Gvg
@SiubhanDuinne: Google images I think I found it. I used Nixon resignation helicopter ford pat. Apparently that photo with Betty ford and Pat Nixon embracing was used in a Pat Nixon biography.
moops
Trump has been laundering money for Russian oligarchs. That is what Mueller has on him, along with Jared. That is what they are going to indict him on, since that is the only thing that is bipartisan. It doesn’t sully the GOP brand, so Mueller will be allowed to carry it to term. It will also leave Pence in place. Heard it here first. Note the time and day. Think about it. Trump loses money on every business, and yet is actually a billionaire. He lost money with a casino, somehow. His only asset is his brand, but a brand maxes out at $100M in value, and he peed a bunch of that away several times. His “brand” is no bigger than Michael Jordan. Arnold actually has a brand AND is good at real estate in LA AND was governor, and he *might* be as wealthy. So, Trump’s businesses fail, and he has huge tax right-offs on the books, but he’s rich. He’s a front. The Russian oligarchs are dumping rubles and buying laundered Trump assets for a pretty good deal through Trump. That’s why the FBI was bugging Trump Tower.
The IC is *really* trying to steer things back to treason, but Mueller won’t go after treason, since Congress and Senate won’t back him. Treason will poison the GOP. It will scoop up Sessions, and Ryan, and other GOP party big hitters. Not going to happen. Mueller knows the GOP is a mess of compromised politicians, and he also knows he can’t go after them. His only angle to to burn Trump for real Mafia-style money laundering and hope follow-on investigations chip away at flipped Congress and Senate members.
No One You Know
@Baud: Could the Senate have refused to accept the resignation in the interests of the Constitution?