I don’t know how else to interpret this outcome of the Trump-Putin meeting. Via WaPo:
HAMBURG — President Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday discussed brokering “commitments of noninterference” in the U.S. political system during a lengthy face-to-face meeting in Germany, the first in-person encounter between the two leaders about Russia’s alleged role in the 2016 election.
Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, who attended the two-hour-and-fifteen-minute meeting, said it did not focus on the United States moving to punish Russia for the allegations that it hacked and leaked information that would help Trump win the election. Instead, Tillerson said the two leaders discussed “how do we move forward” regarding the election-hacking issue.
He said the White House was not “dismissing the issue” but wanted to focus on “how do we secure a commitment” that there will not be interference in the future.
Trump is just carrying on a long tradition. Remember when Abraham Lincoln contacted Jefferson Davis to discuss brokering commitments of non-firing on Ft. Sumter? Or when FDR and Emperor Hirohito put that unpleasantness at Pearl Harbor behind them and agreed to move on? Or, more recently, when President Obama called Osama bin Laden and asked how to secure a commitment that there would be no more terrorist attacks?
This is outrageous. It’s insulting. It’s cowardly. Any Republican who goes along with this “let bygones be bygones” strategy is a fucking traitor, pure and simple. And my guess is it will be every last one of the craven worms: After they finish furrowing their brows and expressing “concern,” they’ll go back to sniffing around after tax cuts while Putin consolidates control of our government.
Kenneth Kohl
UFB…
Westyny
It’s Quislings all the way down. . .
Aleta
“how do we secure a commitment” that there will not be interference in the future? — We don’t without a public accounting and legal investigation, no redactions.
Roger Moore
Anyone who believes that we’re actually adopting a “let bygones be bygones” policy rather than a “thanks for your help, please help again in 2018” policy needs to talk to my buddy in Nigeria who has a once-in-a-lifetime business opportunity to discuss.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
I know the IC moves at its own pace, but it sure would be gratifying if some utterly astonishing and damaging leak might drop to reveal in terms so stark that even your Ryans and McConnells could not just tut-tut it away.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
Oh my fucking god. I’m tired of this looking forward shit. No mercy, no survivors
cervantes
Robert Mueller may have something to say about that.
Aleta
@West of the Rockies (been a while): >some utterly astonishing and damaging leak, even your Ryans and McConnells could not just tut-tut it away<
Like the roof falling in on their heads.
Davis X. Machina
Party before country.
The Party is the Vanguard of the Revolution.
The state is, after all, fated to wither away when the class war is over.
We are delivered into the hands of revolutionary Leninists.
Roger Moore
@West of the Rockies (been a while):
There is no leak so severe that McConnell and Ryan won’t tut-tut it away. They aren’t disinterested third parties, or even partisans who don’t want their team to lose. They’re deeply involved in the whole matter, so their futures are just as much on the line with this as Trump’s is.
Yarrow
I’m not sure why anyone would have expected anything different. Putin owns Trump through kompromat, including proof of his long time ties to the Russian mob, debts to Russian oligarchs, and probably some horrifying videos. Trump wasn’t just meeting a foreign leader; he was reporting in to his boss.
The GOP top leadership is also involved financially with the Russians and are owned as well. It’s been absolutely clear this is the case from their actions. I saw it on McConnell’s face and in his body language in December when he suddenly decided he’d allow an investigation into Russian activity in the election. He knew they had at least some intel on his treasonous activities. By allowing the investigations to go forward he hoped he could control the process and keep his treason hidden. They’re all hoping to walk that fine line.
NotMax
Forget About Russian Tampering
The FART treaty.
Roger Moore
@Davis X. Machina:
FTFY.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Roger Moore:
Cool, hook me up with this guy, Roger.
The Moar You Know
Fixed for the record:
Thoroughly Pizzled
What are we gonna have to do to Russia, destroy their economy even more? Blow up Putin with a cigar bomb?
Leto
The word you’re looking for is poltroon.
Yarrow
@West of the Rockies (been a while):
Perhaps a story might drop when Trump’s on the plane back to the US. Can’t respond immediately and returns home to a big story already being discussed.
hueyplong
This is just Trump living down to our expectations. IC intercepts picked up nothing beyond Putin barking out an order for Trumpkin to “work the balls.”. Hannity will report that the phrase is ambiguous and could mean anything.
Hal
Years and years of Obama, empty suit; the weakest President ever, the guy who secretly loves Muslim terrorists. Now Trump is kissing Putin’s ass and Republicans couldn’t care less. Am I surprised? Hell no. But if hypocrisy could be harnesses as clean energy, we could put the oil conglomerates out of business.
randy khan
As St. Ronny would have said “Trust but verify.” I’m guessing that the “verify” part isn’t on Trump’s agenda.
Karen
I feel like I am watching a slow motion train wreck or the “rise and fall of the …… empire” sadly nothing to do but watch. I personally believe that the idiots are greater than those who think and it will take something drastic to wake them up.
Someone suggested going off the grid and hunkering down until dust settles, sounded good to me, now if they would just take me with them. I have survival skills to keep family alive.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Yarrow: What! His 5 year old phone doesn’t work on Air Force One?
d58826
Malcolm Nance thinks the agreement to look into who did the hacking was a great deal. And he has the man to fill the job – OJ Simpson.
Listened to the Tillerson pressor. What a smacked a**. Everything is wonderful because Der Fuhrer and Putin bonded and have great chemistry.
Are we that stupid??????
NCSteve
https://twitter.com/Lucian_Kim/status/883377428118347777
Lest anyone doubted we are now a satellite of a nation with an economy smaller than Italy’s.
Lapassionara
I am trying to imagine what historians are going to say about the Trump reign of error, if there are actual historians at the end of this nightmare.
d58826
And Tillerson promised that the IC would provide the evidence of hacking that Putin asked for.
Keith P.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if the end result of all this was a non-binding agreement between the two countries, ala the Paris Accords?
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
I’d like to say that this is beyond belief, but it isn’t. Anybody could have seen this coming from the moon.
Major Major Major Major
@NCSteve:
Oh, well, I feel better now.
rikyrah
HOLLERING!!!!
TRUTH!!!
TenguPhule
Shrill!
TenguPhule
@Lapassionara:
This line will definitely be in it: “It did not end well.”
JDM
Note too that Trump’s people insisted on limiting the number of people who would attend the Putin meeting. That isn’t suspicious at all.
Barney
Or it’s like that agreement in that other German city, a bit further south, where it was agreed that everything would be a lot nicer if one country interfered in another just a bit, but absolutely promised, on its honour, to do nothing more. And absolutely did. For a whole five months. If only I could remember the city and countries involved.
Yrs,
Godwin.
trollhattan
Yup. Although it’s presently being hashed over by the RNC Bug/Feature? Subcommittee.
TenguPhule
@Karen:
Still not too late to get your emergency plans and food supply in order. Just saying.
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
You remind me of someone. Can’t put my finger on it.
d58826
If Tillerson had any credibility it went up in smoke with his ‘touching’ story about FLOTUS sticking her head into the meeting room to see if she could get POTUS to wind it up. But the meeting went on for another hour.
? Martin
I don’t know. Sounds like Trump stood tough on not letting Russia annex Alaska. And Trump did get Putin to concede that Russia had nothing to do with hacking the election. Take that CIA! In your fucking face!
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@TenguPhule: Metaphorically speaking of course
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Yarrow:
Oh, what a beautiful thought!
The Dangerman
FTFHim.
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I was told there would be no grammar on this blog.
different-church-lady
Internet Security in our time!
The Dangerman
@? Martin:
Curiously, that’s the title for the upcoming Trump/Putin porn flick.
different-church-lady
@Roger Moore: Hey, tell that guy the money hasn’t hit my account yet.
different-church-lady
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: In order to dismiss an issue, doesn’t one have to address it in the first place?
bystander
@d58826: I loved Tillerson’s off camera interview with this rare look at a woman I admire so very much.
Now, was Tillerson only interviewing off camera because his lipstick was badly smeared and his mascara streaked? Word is Vlad can be a very tough negotiator, if you know what I mean.
TenguPhule
Trump: "Mr. Putin, here is a list of the IC assets in your country you need to remove in order to ensure our continued security."
Putin: "Thank you, we shall invite them to tea."
The national security and intelligence departments face an awful choice now. And they're running out of time to make it.
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady:
Thread won.
zhena gogolia
@TenguPhule:
Yep.
trollhattan
What the everloving fuck?!?
Melania sure isn’t getting her anti-bullying role launched.
different-church-lady
@TenguPhule: Put it on the mantle with the others.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@different-church-lady: The Munich Conference of the 21st century. Neville at least had the excuses of public opinion being against war and the UK being unprepared at the time to effectively prosecute a war against Germany
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@TenguPhule: That should be a rotating tag
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: within the context available, Neville made the right choice…
@different-church-lady: keep using that clunky old browser and you’ll never have internet security any time.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@trollhattan: Of course she failed. She’s his Russian handler.
/tin foil hat
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: ETA: On second thought, yes.
different-church-lady
@Major Major Major Major: The agent assigned to read my email must be the most bored mofo on the planet…
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady:
I can’t see the mantle. Perhaps its buried under something.
SFAW
@TenguPhule:
Don’t worry, they ain’t.
And Goku meant “figuratively,” not “metaphorically.” Although I’m sure the alleged grammarians here will tell me I are worng about that.
Frankensteinbeck
Relevant data for people figuring out the extent of things: McConnell passed a bill (with a veto-proof margin) that would make the sanctions against Russia and Iran law, and thus not able to be canceled at Trump’s whim. It is currently held up in the House, because Ryan wants to add a rider that will let the sanctions be canceled at Trump’s whim, and the Democrats aren’t having it.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major: That was my point. Chamberlain for over 80 years has been invoked like a punchline against those who’s immediate response isn’t to start bombing. Same with France too. What conservatives often forget is that Chamberlain was a conservative himself and France was the same country that won the Great War 20 years earlier, with the British Empire’s and American’s help
Chris
@West of the Rockies (been a while):
At this point, a pretty loud part of me is going “what the fuck could we possibly reveal that’s worse than what he’s actually done in full view of the public?”
I mean, fucking Christ. This entire thing started with him going on national television and asking the Russians to hack away at the election for him, and it’s now reached the point where his way of dealing with it is to ask Putin pretty please not to do it again. The entire other half of the country simply does. Not. Give. A. Shit. Putin could publish video footage of him graduating from the KGB academy, and they’d simply shrug and say that Obama grew up in Indonesia so both sides do it.
different-church-lady
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Comedy is not pretty.
SFAW
@different-church-lady:
Were you holding up a piece of paper with lots of 1s and 0s when you typed that?
TenguPhule
@Frankensteinbeck:
Dog and pony show.
And Baud better get the mop and mustard ready. We had a bet, after all.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I was agreeing with you!
@different-church-lady: trust me, I am. Shit, did I say that out loud?
Tazj
@d58826: Good grief. Is that story supposed to make us all believe that Trump is a serious statesman instead of the traitor and all around doofus that he is?
TenguPhule
@Chris:
Given how every other accusation thrown out by Trump and friends has been projection, the few remaining ones have to do with murder and pedophilia.
Just saying.
Kay
I love how they’re all saying that Russia didn’t actually change election totals. Is this supposed to be comforting?
Jesus Christ. That’s the bar now? They didn’t elect a US President, like, with VOTE CHANGING?
It just gets crazier too. Guess who is creating a huge insecure database of voters in the White House? Why, Trump and Pence, that’s who! Along with the loony from Kansas! The two people who we know will be Presidential candidates in the next election and the two people who are under investigation for colluding with Russia in the last election are making a huge new database of all US voters.
This is banana republic. I got news for you- we’re there. What’s shocking is how easy it was. Talk about your bloodless coups. This one was covered in real time on cable tv and it went off without a hitch.
I read that piece about the US billionaires who are buying property in New Zealand because they’re afraid of civil unrest and the barbarians crashing the gates. At the time I read it I thought “God, what cowards- they’re bailing on us!”
Now I want to go with them. Take me. I’ll do landscape maintenance or something. I have many skills!
oldgold
After the meeting, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told reporters that Trump had told Putin he believed that “some circles in the US are exaggerating the topic of Russian cyber meddling,” according to Guardian reporter Alec Luhn
ksmiami
As I told some vile Twitter Trumphead – They didn’t win shit; We all lost with Trump’s election and now it’s about fallout damage
James Powell
Wrong.
Any Republican who does whatever is necessary to keep Trump & Republicans in power will be a hero to his
raceparty.Shalimar
@trollhattan: The story is obvious bullshit. The question is what purpose it could possibly serve to get it out there. I have no clue. It makes them all look bad. Even if you assume the discussions were genuine rather than Trump kissing Putin’s ass and begging him not to release the kompromat, it sounds like the little wifey trying to interrupt Friday poker night rather than a critically-important diplomatic meeting.
Major Major Major Major
@Frankensteinbeck: I think what Ryan’s addition does is make the House minority unable to force a vote on counteracting Trump’s whim, which if we assume Ryan’s complicity is one and the same, but I figured clarity matters.
TenguPhule
@Kay:
And this may not even be true if the reports of penetration into 35 states voting machines is accurate.
d58826
@Kay:
One of the talking heads on MSNBC mentioned that Russian hackers did change vote totals in some parts of Ukraine in their last election. So if they didn’t change totals here it isn’t for lack of ability.
SFAW
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
And with the help of a certain Israeli/Greek freedom fighter!! In 3-D!
MomSense
@different-church-lady:
Once I found out that all my communications had been caught up in the Bush peace activist collection mess, I really wished I had known so I could have at least put some gross or funny things in those emails. It was all this really boring school and parent sign-up stuff. The only good things in there were some photos I took at the Icelandic Phallological Museum.
Kay
@James Powell:
They can’t be this dumb, can they, our leaders? They know if Russia can hack an election they can hack the 50,000 other systems that are online right? I mean, it’s great for Republicans right now but they’re as vulnerable as Democrats are to a nuclear power plant interference or transportation systems interference or any of the other systems.
God almighty how far does partisanship extend? They think they’re somehow immune to this? How so? If my household goes down Trump voters are going down with us. Their MAGA hat isn’t a shield.
Major Major Major Major
@d58826: changing vote totals here in a way that would be meaningful to a national election is hard, but not because the individual computers involved are particularly secure.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Frankensteinbeck: You can’t help but wonder why Rand Boy would be so interested in torpordoing this. Financial connections?
Obdurodon
Also see: “peace for our time”
By that historical precedent, we have less than a year before the bullets start flying.
gvg
I think its time for the IC to be dropping info on Ryan, McConnell and probably several other Congress People. I assume they are already checking out Tillerson. Its harder to justify given the first Amendment and past government abuses but I have been wondering about some press and media ownership and editors given how lousy their coverage of facts has been, honestly the last 20 years. We are getting the idea with Trump. the issue now is why didn’t anything happen when this info really was out there so long ago. I sound like a conspiracy loon. Its just that it all seems so stupid to me and i always was prejudiced against trashy media. elitist of me but look where we are now?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Oh and Italy and Russia’s. Can’t forget those two
TenguPhule
@Kay:
To infinity and beyond. And yes. Yes they do.
hueyplong
@Major Major Major Major: Ryan’s shenanigans with that bill ought to confirm some thinking on Team Mueller.
TenguPhule
@Obdurodon:
Sadly, yes.
joel hanes
@Lapassionara:
I wish Barbara Tuchman were still alive.
She could have put out a thick sequel to The March Of Folly, just from The Excellent Adventures of W 43 and His Uncle Dick.
And the Trump years are providing sufficient raw material for a long series of subsequent volumes.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major: I know. I like to bloviate :p
Kay
@d58826:
It’s the next obvious step. It’s not a license to ignore it. “Whew! Glad they didn’t actually elect the President! Let’s spend the next 3 days on whether CNN threatened the Reddit poster”.
They continually ignore the congressional races, too. THEY KNOW there was interference in congressional races. It’s not just Trump. It’s the President and Congress. What are they waiting for? There’s only one branch left.
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: The R shortsightedness is what’s galling. They think they are going to be immune if the economy spirals into a depression because the Rs blew up the healthcare sector. Or that when tourism $$ dry up, its only going to affect the blue areas. If immigrant doctors are made to jump a 1000 hoops, their hospitals will still have the medical personnel they need and so on.
Kay
@d58826:
Warren on the Senate committee said it would be “months” before they could tell the public anything. Not good enough! They have to treat this with more urgency. Elections don’t belong to the candidates or the electeds. This is vital information for voters. They need it TIMELY or it’s useless.
TenguPhule
@Kay:
One seat left, actually.
And after that, then we find out if my predictions are wrong.
Betty Cracker
Chuck Schumer gets it:
scav
Somehow, at least of the concern about actual vote changing seems to be an avoidance mechanism for people unwilling to face how many of their neighbors and fellow Americans are really as racist, misogynist and just plain mean as this election revealed.
joel hanes
@Kay:
This is banana republic. I got news for you- we’re there.
We’ve been a banana republic since the coup of November 2000;
the O 44 years were a brief interregnum.
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
There is a ton of solid local reporting on the rural hospital situation. We have a little tiny daily where I live and they cover it every day. They have a lot of trouble recruiting physicians and have for years. People need to understand the distances we’re talking about here- the geography. Old, poor people can’t travel 70 miles to the doctor. I’m actually pleased with the level of coverage it’s getting from local media. My local newspaper subscription is about 100 dollars a year for a copy at both home and the office and it’s worth every penny and more this year. Good job! Bravo!
Major Major Major Major
@hueyplong: if there’s anything that can be found legally, I’m sure Mueller will dig it up.
joel hanes
@Major Major Major Major:
changing vote totals here in a way that would be meaningful to a national election is hard, but not because the individual computers involved are particularly secure.
It would be very damned difficult to hack the California totals, because thanks to the wisdom of a CA Secretary of State, we use paper ballots marked in ink. As should everyone.
Paper ballots are one thing the Dems should push for, hard, everywhere.
TenguPhule
@Kay:
/whistles innocently
SFAW
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Carfeul — that’s President Lying Littledick’s job.
Oh, wait, I misread it — I thought you had written blovlad
My bad
Major Major Major Major
@Kay:
And right now a full 1/3 of it is the poison fruit of a poison tree.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
He won, Betty. They don’t care. They’ll get the SCOTUS seats and the tax cuts and the deregulation. They don’t care about the rest.
Trump is right when he says “I won” in response to every criticism or concern. That’s all that matters to them.
Chris
@Kay:
I think our elites, or at least the most-of-them that consists of the GOP and those affiliated with it, are in the process of accepting their status as the elites of a Cold War era banana republic: happy to surrender a giant chunk of your sovereignty to your CIA/KGB handlers and allow them the full run of the house, because they and you share a common enemy, namely, your own people.
And yes, they really do hate us that much.
One of the many possible scenarios I have for this is that the current bullshit goes on until the Russians decide that having people as unstable as our Republicans in charge is simply too dangerous, and start hacking on behalf of Democrats instead… at which point the Republicans suddenly rediscover the value of patriotism and sovereignty and all the backlash that should have happened after this election does happen, but taken all the way up to eleven.
That at least takes care of the Russian interference problem, at least for a time, but replaces them with the Palmer Raids/COINTELPRO on crack.
sublime33
So what if the Chinese with some assistance from India approached the Democratic committee and offered their hacking services to counteract the Russians who are working for the Republicans. Do you think anyone would have a problem with this?
Bobby Thomson
@Roger Moore: this.
Kay
@TenguPhule:
Whenever people said “I’m moving to Canada” or whatever after they lose I always thought “screw that, they should go, I’m not going” now I’m like Canada is really close and the weather is basically the same and I could get there on a very small boat….
TenguPhule
@sublime33:
They will be greeted the same way the Republicans will be.
Metal will be involved. And not precious ones.
Betty Cracker
@joel hanes: At least Bush 2 was sleazed into office by good old American corruption! Seriously, though — Bush 2 was an awful president who did incalculable damage. But while Trump can’t match Shrub’s body count (yet), this is an order of magnitude worse, IMO.
SFAW
@sublime33:
The US as the site of a proxy war. Who’d’a thunk?
Major Major Major Major
@Kay: remember when Obama said “I won” and everybody fainted at the indignity?
@joel hanes: concur.
TenguPhule
@Kay: Unfortunately, the upcoming unrest and violence are unlikely to stay within national borders. When it all goes pear shaped, dumb luck is going to be the main factor of getting through it.
Millard Filmore
@gvg:
If any information traceable to the IC leaks, I sincerely hope it comes out via one of our allies. Our IC should make a gallant attempt to appear non-partisan.
Aleta
About US voter
fraudsuppression:at Mother Jones (much more)
Kay
@Chris:
I have this disconnect because when I read about the tech zillionaires and their careful language about “civil unrest” all I think is “hey! They’re talking about us! I’m the threat?” I guess I didn’t know it was so clear-cut- “us and them”- I had this idea we were more of an, I don’t know, country? Where is the solidarity? :)
Tillerson’s like “oh, fuck them, they don’t vote for us anyway”.
A Ghost to Most
We are actively preparing for a skedaddle into the mountains, if shit turns south.
Roger Moore
@Tazj:
It’s intended for hard-core Kool-Aid junkies.
TenguPhule
@Aleta: And people wonder why I don’t think this is going to end peacefully. These bastards keep destroying all the peaceful options.
d58826
@Major Major Major Major: True but Trump did flip the election by only 80k votes. But I agree that a presidential election would be a lot harder
to affect at the actual vote level. . And if you start meddling in Senate/House seats you might get a Congress that would lift the sanctions.
Vox has a piece up that says Der Fuhrer told Putin that some Americans are exaggerating the whole thing.
Millard Filmore
@sublime33:
So the future of our Banana Republic is to fight out a proxy war between Russia and China!
Bah! I’m too slow … what SFAW said.
Major Major Major Major
@Millard Filmore: we have always been a proxy war between Eurasia and Eastasia!
Kay
It’s wild to watch. Conservatives have convinced themselves that Podesta is the threat they should be concerned about.
They worry about the Oberlin student council and Podesta. That’s the real threat.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Aleta: Methinks the ACRU should get a pipe bomb at their next meeting for being fascists. “Civil Rights” my ass.
danielx
Well, one would have to trust ol’ Vlad’s word, which I trust about as much as I trust the shitweasel in the White House. (The head shitweasel, that is, there are so many from which to choose.) So no, that’s a nonstarter.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Kay:
It’s been amazing to me for awhile that these turds give such a shit about what college students are up to. Unless they’re doing something illegal, who really cares? It’s low-hanging fruit for old conservative dingleberries
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@SFAW: Who do I look like, Trump?
Roger Moore
@Kay:
All the way. They care more about winning elections than they do about the good of the country or their mortal souls.
Brachiator
The Guardian has been having sad fun documenting what happened when Vladdy Met Donald.
But I bet Fox News will soon bloviate all over the place with how Trump showed Putin who was the real Master of the Universe.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@SFAW: Wonder Woman?
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@joel hanes: Yes, and vote by mail.
d58826
How do you get beyond things that happened in the past when the Russian hack goes to the most basic aspect of our sovereignty.
Roger Moore
@Kay:
Why do they think New Zeelanders will be any more forgiving?
The Midnight Lurker
Am I the only one who is increasing uncomfortable with the way the media is setting up Tillerson as the adult in the room? The same guy who brokered the massive oil deal with Russia while head of Exxon/Mobil. The same deal that Putin is looking to remove sancitions for.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Well… they are old conservative dingleberries. The young ones are wannabe old conservative dingleberries. All seventeen libertarians are just loud.
I’ll admit that the aggrieved-dudebro demographic might be new.
@Roger Moore: Don’t ask me, they’re the ones selling citizenship.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@The Midnight Lurker: They’re grasping at straws and desperately want somebody to be the Republican Daddy in the room.
Bill Arnold
@Kay:
@schrodingers_cat:
If one puts on an extreme paranoia hat, there is a tactic called (among other things) “Short and Destroy” So sad.
(click through and notice that it didn’t work in that case.)
Mike J
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: No.
Kay
@d58826:
They haven’t even told voters what happened and they’re ready to move on? We don’t even have the most basic facts and we’re burying this story because it’s inconvenient for some powerful people?
Elections are ours. They don’t belong to Tillerson or Trump. It can’t keep being about whoever is currently in power and protecting their “legitimacy” because there won’t be anything left to protect.
They have to at least tell us what happened, and soon. There’s a deadline here and they missed it in November. They can’t miss it again. People deserve at a least a fighting chance to resist whatever this is- they can’t, because they don’t know anything.
My husband thinks the stories about Clinton as a sex trafficker came out of a Russian disinformation campaign. Those stories were everywhere on Facebook. I have had ordinary people repeat them to me as fact. Voters should be told whether that happened because they could conceivably resist the next round of lies if they knew where the lies came from. They don’t even have a chance to make a better decision as it is right now. They’re in the dark.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
It doesn’t surprise me that Trump the bully groveled like the coward he is with Putin. But as Podesta said, time for Trump to get a grip and wake up to he is representing the US.
TenguPhule
@The Midnight Lurker:
Nope. Of course, they’re not really doing a good job of that either.
But cue Village anyway. It’s not unwarranted.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Mike J: I’m getting real sick of conservatives pulling this shit and getting away with it. They’re dirty and corrupt, trying to stack the game in their favor. Pretty soon, there won’t be any legitimate means to defeat them.
Chris
@Kay:
Years ago when the teabaggers were first rising, one of the commenters from Sadly, No! wrote a fairly good Fourth of July post about the meaning of patriotism and what it had degenerated into. Key to it was the point that nations, at their most basic level, are unified groups of people and that patriotism, at its most basic level, involves these people looking out for one another; that if you adopt the movement conservative mantra of every man for himself, you no longer have a nation; that, basically, if you accept Maggie Thatcher’s pile of crap about how there is no such thing as society, you’re also saying that there is no such thing as country.
It’s a point that I kept in mind for the following years of watching the teabaggers wreak havoc on the country because they were enraged that they lost, but even more so after watching the entire GOP embrace the most catastrophic presidency possibly in the history of the country because hey, he sticks it to liberals, and what’s more important than that?
HRA
@Kay:
Yes, it is us and them. It is based on what we value in comparison to what they value.
I have been thinking about what led a portion of the Trump voters and the coming out of the groups that now are more public. I believe it is Affirmative Action. It connects with the WWC and what happened sometime after 1986 when government agencies were told to fill a quota of minorities in their departments and offices. Locally a fireman made the news objecting to being past over for a higher position by a minority. One of the managers in my office came around with a clipboard asking everyone for their ancestry/ethnicity. Since there was no minority on the qualified list to be reached, they began hiring minority student workers for their quota. I was on a search committee for a librarian position. They called only 1 meeting where it became obvious they had no Black applicant for the position. They had reached out to Native American and Hispanic professional newsletters. I asked why did they not reach out to the Black newsletter. “We forgot and it’s too late now.” I was never asked to serve on a search committee again. .
TenguPhule
@Kay:
But they won’t. Things are simply coming to a head. Faster then expected, I grant, but still in the same direction I predicted months ago. Unless the IC really is willing to get their hands dirty, this train isn’t stopping.
Kay
@d58826:
How do national media and the federal government justify not telling voters what happened in an election? How is it possible we may never be told about this? I mean, my God, if that’s not something we need to know then nothing is.
This was revealed last February and there is not a single member of the public who has any idea what happened- not even basic facts. That is a huge failure! It’s a failure at every level.
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
What do you mean pretty soon? That was Nov 8, 2016.
TenguPhule
@Kay:
Nothing matters anymore. Sat Night Live got that one dead on.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Kay: They don’t care, Kay. All they care about is money, power, and winning. The nationstate is obsolete. It’s a worldwide cabal now that influences much of the world now. The rich. Any tinpot nation can control a country now. The worldwide rich have no allegiance and I’m saying this as someone who believes in cosmopolitanism. They’re going along to get along. American values of liberty and democracy be damned
Kay
@d58826:
Trump reportedly told Putin people were “exaggerating” the interference. If he knows that then he knows more than anyone else in the public- we have been told nothing of value or use. Nothing. How can he know it’s exaggerated? When does he let us in on it? Never. It will remain a mystery forever.
Brachiator
@Major Major Major Major:
@cervantes:
The Chief Ethics officer recently resigned, mainly because Trump brazenly ignored him and the GOP leadership has Trump’s back. Right now, Mueller could dig up all kinds of nefarious stuff, and the Republicans would fail to do anything about it and will do everything they can to minimize it. I wonder whether the GOP might even have the brass cojones to let Mueller be dismissed.
And there seem to be a core of Trump supporters who have, in their minds, effectively given him immunity for anything he may have done. Trump employees, inside or outside of government, might have to take the fall if sufficient bad deeds are uncovered.
jl
Trump doesn’t know what he is doing.
Elections are held at state and local level, and under Trump, feds will just mess things up through incompetence and bad policy, and will be as untrustworthy as Putin/Russia (or whatever flunkies Putin designates to do the dirty work).
Voters will have to contact state and local governments and press for free and fair elections for next election cycles.
That’s how i see it.
Kay
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Right, thanks. I may be one of the last to know but I have it now. It may be a conceit and probably is but I always think I’ll be okay in “every man for himself”. I’ll find out, I guess. The key seems to be find your tribe and ally agin the other tribes. Okey doke.
mai naem mobile
I hate this whole administration and Dolt’s fucking asshole family with the heat of a gazillion suns. If this garbage POS does not have a massive fall I will have lost all faith.
TenguPhule
@jl:
That sound you hear is hysterical Republican laughter.
FlipYrWhig
@SFAW:
Most Europeans circa 1776-83?
Major Major Major Major
@Brachiator: I didn’t say the Republicans would do anything about it.
d58826
@Kay: I agree
Karen
@TenguPhule: I am single and have had preppers want me to join them right up to point they find out I am not christian nor will I accept that a penis makes them all wise and powerful
JPL
Trump will be tweeting about his best friend tomorrow.
Karen
@? Martin: so he didn’t give up Alaska? I thought he might, guess Vald didn’t want it after all it comes with Palin
Chris
@FlipYrWhig:
1861-1865 might’ve given it some thought too. Though most of them were specifically backing one horse.
ruemara
@Roger Moore: I know a few and they’re not too happy with the billionaires buying citizenship. & they are quite aware of our political mess that Thiel contributed to, thank you very much.
Betty Cracker
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Don’t advocate blowing people up here. Please and thank you.
SatanicPanic
@TenguPhule: Why? My state managed to marginalize those idiots, despite them doing their best to rig the vote. It’s not impossible.
Karen
@TenguPhule: “thankfully” my great grandmother was part of those who homesteaded WI and I spent summers with her, I don’t need food supplies just seeds and small animals. You know chickens, goats and sheep.
NCSteve
@Major Major Major Major:
And to Betty’s point . . . actual treason, actual collusion.
https://twitter.com/JasminMuj/status/883383397170769923
Brachiator
@Roger Moore: RE: I read that piece about the US billionaires who are buying property in New Zealand because they’re afraid of civil unrest and the barbarians crashing the gates.
Many New Zealanders are sheep.
Yarrow
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
No he’s not. Trump represents Trump, as he always has. He may have been elected and taken an oath and is in an office where he’s supposed to represent the US but none of that has changed his fundamental character. He represents his interests, as always, and right now those interests are about making Putin happy so Putin doesn’t release the compromising intel on Trump.
schrodingers_cat
@SatanicPanic: Thank You.
TenguPhule
@Karen:
But what happens after you run out of Trump and Stein supporters?
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic: At this point, they just need to consolidate their ill gotten gains.
Yarrow
@Kay:
They don’t believe in the idea of country, except for how it benefits them. They see themselves as “global citizens.” The idea of country is so outdated. The tech zillionaires are loyal to their money and perhaps also to their fellow rich people, at least in that they all have similar goals of keeping themselves rich and everyone else poor.
different-church-lady
@Kay:
THE THOUGHT BUBBLE ABOVE PUTIN’S HEAD: “Please…. I know more about your people’s psychology than you ever will.”
Iowa Old Lady
I’m looking at the picture of Pence touching the NASA thing labelled “Do Not Touch.” He has his hand flat on it. Why would he do that? Is it like testing to see if the paint really is wet?
sunny raines
republican treasonous behavior has been established long before this. Their protection and support of the criminal incompetent POTUS has been evident for some time.
SatanicPanic
@TenguPhule: They already tried that in my state. They failed. Now they are irrelevant at all levels.
Bill Arnold
@Iowa Old Lady:
Either that, or he can’t read. You decide.
I once dealt with painters who would regularly tape a sheet of paper near wet paint, saying something like “Wet Paint – Test Spot” with a dab of paint.
TenguPhule
@Iowa Old Lady:
As always, Sir Terry answered this.
Roger Moore
@Chris:
I think the Movement Conservative idea of every man for himself is more a justification for lowering taxes and providing fewer government services than it is a real statement of belief. The problem the Movement Conservatives have is that they view who is supposed to be looking out for whom differently from the rest of us. They really see nationalism in ethnic terms, which means they want to leave out all the black/brown/yellow/etc. people from their calculations. Of course that’s why they’re so eager to gut government services. They want socialism for white Christians and the rigors of the market for everyone else.
Brachiator
@The Midnight Lurker:
Interesting. Tillerson is quoted or mentioned in at least three stories that recently popped up in my news notifications. Of course, you expect the Secretary of State to figure prominently in a G20 meeting, but still…
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Betty Cracker: Fine.
Cheryl Rofer
@Iowa Old Lady: There is a whole gendered analysis of “patting the bomb.” This isn’t a bomb, but Pence seems to feel an equal need to pat it. Carol Cohn is worth reading, although this is a long and dense paper.
Edited for clarity.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Iowa Old Lady:
Remember, back when he was in Congress, his colleagues from both sides of the aisle called him Mike Dense.
Hoodie
@Brachiator: yeah, but that breed of sheep can hear a zipper a mile away. I actually enjoy the thought of a bunch of glibertarian dorks self exiled to an island full of sheep. A lot of kiwis I’ve met couldn’t wait to leave, it’s pretty but isolated. Could we fake the end of the world to get them to leave and then explode an EMP device over NZ so they can’t find out that it’s a hoax?
scav
@TenguPhule: Well, there’s evidence that a large ‘Do Not Touch” sign on women other than his wife wouldn’t work with the O, So Suoerirly Pious ‘n’ Christian Pence. NASA should only have let him in if accompanied by another Space Agency.
Aleta
@Iowa Old Lady: My guess is he thinks such rules are for others but don’t apply to Sir *Pence.*
trollhattan
@Hoodie:
A Kiwi acquaintance of mine maintained “We’re bartenders to the world” noting the great outflow of young adults. Pretty high absentee ballot count too IIRC.
trollhattan
@scav:
Somebody should present Pence with this one.
Aleta
@Brachiator:
Today, this appears:
He’s still receiving this money, from each new member since election.
rikyrah
@Chris:
It’s not the other half. A good 30%, yes.
NorthLeft12
Bety, Betty, Betty. IOKYAR Rules.
They will never let go of the unresolved “crimes” of the Clintons. Nor will they ever forget the infamous scandals that President Obama turned a blind eye to, or the imperious and unconstitutional executive orders he issued.
But a trillion dollar [or two or three] theft and scam from the middle and lower classes by the 0.1% is something that must not be dwelled on. Torture and extra judicial executions by the military and police are also too controversial and in their eyes, harmful to American society if they are prosecuted or even discouraged.
I really dislike conservatives on a visceral level. I just can’t get around their goals and policies and not connect them to deep seated character flaws and the evil behaviour they represent.
rikyrah
We must NEVER allow the GOP to utter patriotism ever again.
rikyrah
@Kay:
I no longer believe that they didn’t change vote totals. I decided that a little over a week ago. What I thought was Voter Suppression…nope. The Russians changed the vote totals and used Voter ID suppression as the cover.
RSR
Look forward, not backwards. Good enough for the Obama admin regarding our glorious Iraqi adventure and Wall Street malfeasance. Nice to see that tradition acknowledged and carried into new arenas. Heckuva job.
The Moar You Know
@rikyrah: I never have. They were always the easiest target, from a hacker’s point of view.
It was never the voting machines.
Chris
@Yarrow:
“Global citizen” is much too kind and also not exactly the right mindset. “Global citizen” is the self-descriptor for starry-eyed Trekkies or, less facetiously, people who believe in and take seriously transnational entities like the UN or the EU and believe in continuing to build more of a global community. It implies a sense of community, allegiance, and responsibility that’s basically the same as what most people feel towards their nation-state, just applied to a broader polity.
That’s not our plutocrats. They are citizens of a nation-state of one, or at best, a nation-state of a very small and arbitrary number of people consisting of themselves and the few people they care about.
rikyrah
@The Midnight Lurker:
He is the Secretary of Exxon..
NOTHING more
Kay
@rikyrah:
I’d just like some information so I could decide for myself. If they’re worried about credibility (and they should be) they need to tell us what happened.
I can’t find anything on the congressional races other than one NYTimes article. Why weren’t the Dem candidates and campaign workers interviewed again? Why was there zero follow-up on that story? What about the political media covering those races? Did the candidates and campaigns say at the time there was Russian interference? If so, why wasn’t that reported? That is an AMAZING story “Russia interfered in a US election specifically to help GOP congressional candidates”- why is that treated as if it’s not important for the public to know? Of course they should know.
Conspiracy theories come about because people feel powerless. We should be asking why people feel powerless. Instead of working so hard to prop up some idea of “legitimacy” how about working toward REAL legitimacy? They’re killing these fucking “institutions” by “protecting” them. No more protection! Just let them stand or fall! If they fall down under the weight of telling us what actually happened then they weren’t worth much anyway.
Chris
@Roger Moore:
Doesn’t that depend a lot on the movement conservatives? The shit-kickers who actually are white-working-class or close to it are definitely “socialism for white people,” but most are wealthier than that, and the wealthier you go, the more seriously they take the individualism. There are quite a few of these people for whom their white working class voters are nothing but an albino version of the blacks and Mexicans they loathe.
Brachiator
@Aleta:
And Trump supporters love this stuff. I don’t know. Maybe they have delusions that one day Trump will make them rich. It’s as if Lucifer were preaching the Prosperity Gospel.
SFAW
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Of course.
SFAW
@FlipYrWhig:
They’re dead, Jim.
Besides, it didn’t really become the US until the 1789 or so
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Chris:
Hey! I resemble that remark. But everything else you said is true.
SFAW
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
How the hell would I know?
Oh, you didn’t mean literally.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@SFAW: I get what you’re saying, but it was technically called the United States before then. People then probably had more allegiance to their state then to the nation as whole. US was considered more plural then singular
les
@Roger Moore:
Well, Bannon considers himself a Leninist, I think.
SFAW
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
I can call myself Governor or President, but until I actually win that contest, it don’t mean much. Meaning: before Yorktown, the term “United States” didn’t mean much.
Or I could call myself “the Hope of the Universe,” but then you and I would have to do the steel-cage thing, and I’d lose badly anyway.
On the other hand: I’m just being a ball-buster (who’d’a thunk?) — I don’t really disagree about the French-British thing during the Revolution.
SFAW
@les:
I was hoping he’d consider himself Trotsky, maybe he’d visit Cozumel or Coyoacan.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@SFAW: Heh. Tbf, I meant after the Treaty of Paris in 1783. Wasn’t really clear. I learned in an early American history course last fall about it and it really wasn’t until modern times, certainly after the CW, that States became more thought of as administrative divisions then sovereign entities unto themselves
Bill Arnold
@Brachiator:
Dunno if original, but LOL.
a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)
@d58826: Wanna bet the IC is ready to do so–via a leak to the Washington Post?
Draco7
@Kay: Sorry, Kay – don’t mean to pick on you, but don’t you feel powerless as well? I’m reading these comments and there seems to be a lot of that going around, along with conspiracy theories. Unfortunately, many of the theorists may be right. The thing I’m struck with is the comments here represent the sentiments of the majority – most people in America will agree with you on the basics. There is always the 1% and the 27%, but you (y’all) are in the majority. I know from your posts that you are/have been politically active, and that’s good – but it’s the exception that doesn’t disprove the rule. Most folks do not participate in politics. I’d let ’em off the hook, but right now we need as many on board as possible. Liberals/Democrats/progressives have the lion’s share of education, creativity, ethics, etc., and with those resources we still rail at the “MSM” as if it was this insurmountable monolith. 30 years ago no one would have thought you could be your own publisher, but now you can. I think this crew can bypass the MSM rather than relying on it – same applies to leadership. The official Democratic party is pretty barren ground for leadership. The blind are leading the sighted – some folks here follow LGM, which posted re the DCCC’s latest attempt at committing politics. It’s obvious that they are clueless and distressingly out of touch. We (most of us at least) have been relying on the Green Lantern approach for the last 8 years – just one heroic individual between us and barbarity. We attempted to trade him in for Wonder Woman, and got somebody that makes us long for Zippy the Pinhead. Anyway, this is about attitude – we are not powerless, just disorganized and largely unled. There’s stuff to do. Who is pulling together money, lawyers, and transportation for these counties to defend their voter rolls and get folks registered, ID’d, and to the polls? There’s a place to push back. Work the refs for the MSM while seeing what you can do to make them obsolete, and work Facebook and Twitter. Some lefty hackers should be able to string something together that’s even hipper and we all get it to catch on. I got a million of ’em. I understand BJ is a place to vent and goof a little, but if serious doesn’t belong here show me where it does belong. /braindump
Bokonon
Let bygones be bygones … because our team won.
And because our team may win again in the next election, with assistance from our friends in the Russian government. Or whoever hacked the Democrats. Nobody knows, right?
GregB
Submission accomplished.
fuckwit
fucking hilarious.
“hey, thanks for hacking us into power! now, we are your puppet ruler. how much ass do we have to kiss, to keep you from hacking us out of power? you got it!”
troll is our raj.
J R in WV
@Iowa Old Lady:
I’m hoping they just need to wipe it down with alcohol, or some stronger solvent, like Nitric Acid. And his hand, wipe it down, too.
Entitled asshole!! Too pig ignorant to walk and breathe, and so suffering from oxygen deprivation most of the time.
J R in WV
@Cheryl Rofer:
Whooo, that is dense. And Homoerotic, reaching out to pat the B-1, or the Trident. Well done essay, thanks for sharing it.
No One You Know
@Brachiator: Well, he did kick up a fuss about Our Jared. Something had to be done. Right?
dog barking all the time
Pretty! This was an incredibly wonderful post. Thank you for
providing these details.