Today in our ongoing national embarrassment, Trump scolded the planet’s other nuclear-armed narcissist with awful hair in terms that made George W. Bush sound like Churchill:
In Warsaw, Trump said the United States was considering “some pretty severe things” in response to what he called “very, very bad behavior” from the North, although he did not mention any specific plans.
“Something will have to be done about it,” he said.
When asked about Russian meddling in the U.S. election, Trump trashed the U.S. intelligence community and President Obama:
“I think it was Russia, but I think it was probably other people and/or countries,” Trump told reporters on Thursday at a news conference with Polish President Andrzej Duda in Warsaw, a day ahead of his first in-person meeting as president with Russian President Vladimir Putin. “Nobody really knows. Nobody really knows for sure…”
In the news conference, Trump also said the real question was why former President Barack Obama didn’t do anything to stop the meddling after he was informed about it last year.
“He did nothing. The reason is, he thought Hillary was going to win,” Trump said, referring to his 2016 presidential opponent, Hillary Clinton. “And if he thought I was going to win, he would have done plenty about it…”
Trump also cast doubt on the conclusion of the U.S. intelligence community, saying that only three or four agencies found Russia culpable — not 17, as has been widely reported. Trump said the intelligence officials have been wrong in the past.
“I remember when I was sitting back listening about Iraq — weapons of mass destruction,” Trump said. “How everybody was 100 percent sure that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Guess what? That led to one big mess. They were wrong and it led to a mess.”
A Kremlin spokesman eagerly seized on Trump’s exculpatory remarks:
Asked about Trump’s statement that Russia could have been behind the hacking — something Moscow has repeatedly denied — Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Trump had highlighted “equally the possibility that it could have been other countries. Please note the nuances.”
Nuances duly noted. Damn, Putin is going to play this fool like a kazoo. And the Republicans in Congress will welcome the conqueror with chilled vodka and caviar when he arrives for his state visit.
Sorry not to be more uplifting, but this is “very, very bad behavior.” Open thread!
lollipopguild
Trump: Gentlemen, we have to do something to save our phoney, baloney jobs! Harumpf, Harumpf, Harumpf!
LAO
@lollipopguild: Obligatory link
ETA: which I apparently screwed up — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN99jshaQbY
PeakVT
Thanks, Comey. Your legacy is assured.
schrodingers_cat
Factual is good, uplifting is not necessary. We know what he is going to say, I love VP, xoxo. T is a teenage girl to Vlad’s Bieber.
lollipopguild
We have a President who truly hates America and wants to turn America into Russia.
ruemara
Well, enough people didn’t care because purity, hate Hillary, tax cut Jesus, egg babbys for jesus, moar gunz. I just hope they get the first wave of destruction. This was fucking obvious if you didn’t want to lie to yourself.
Gin & Tonic
Moron is going to have his lunch money stolen by everybody there.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Another Scott
I really wish we would get more push-back about NK and that “something has to be done about that (NOW!)” framing of the conflict.
The BBC had an interview with an old guy from some university in Adelaide, Australia a day or two ago. He was putting the issue in a much broader context and it was helpful to me. I’ve made a cheat sheet for myself based on that and other things I’ve picked up:
1) Although he didn’t explicitly mention it, DPRK and China have a mutual defense pact. Do we really want to go to war with China??
2) China does not want the USA on its border. They will not accept the DPRK collapsing. This is a red line. We saw it in the Korean War when MacArthur pushed too close to the border.
3) Russia and China have an interest in the DPRK being a thorn in the side of the USA, making our bluster appear impotent. It lets them make “reasonable” proposals, like offering to guarantee SK’s and Japan’s security in return for the removal of US bases, treaties, etc. All of Donnie’s and Haley’s bluster about “unacceptable!” (‘yeah? What are ya gonna do about it, huh?’) strengthens Putin and Xi. Donnie screaming at Xi to fix things just makes the USA look weak and will not change China’s behavior or policies.
4) Something I often harp on – atom bombs and ballistic missiles are 70+ year old technology. A country having them doesn’t mean that the USA is going to be attacked. Any reasonably modern country that wants them bad enough will get them. The way to prevent them from getting those weapons (and deploying them in a destabilizing way) is through politics and sensible negotiation, not through daily threats of military action.
5) DPRK propaganda about flattening the USA is propaganda. It’s not a war plan. It’s not a declaration of war. It doesn’t mean that we are all gonna die unless we attack first.
6) There is no “solution” that will get rid of the DPRK. We should stop acting like there is. Kim and his regime are going to have to collapse on their own (if they ever do).
In short, Donnie and his team are doing everything wrong here. They’re not advancing our interests, they’re undermining them.
Cheers,
Scott.
gvg
you know, Russia is making it very obvious they are manipulating this fool. He isn’t going to last IMO. I wonder if that’s why they aren’t being more subtle.
It was also widely reported at the time that Bush & Cheney were leaning on the intelligence communities to support their preferred results. I think those answers were more ambiguous in the first place so it wasn’t nearly the scandal. besides I have to say, I thought Bush was wrong headed but I didn’t think he was disloyal to us. quite a different situation. I bet Trump doesn’t even understand why we are so disgusted with him.
Manyakitty
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Ew.
The Moar You Know
I must admit that I’m totally OK with Trump hanging Iraq around the necks of the IC. They deserve it. I’d have been much happier if a Dem president was doing it, but just glad that somebody is. A lot of people died because those fuckers didn’t bother doing their homework, or any work at all, really. Just went along with Bush’s charade, and called all us Dems traitors in the process.
I’m going to be pissed about that all my life, come to think of it. So let payback be payback, regardless of the source. Maybe the IC can come around to calling Trump a traitor one of these days. They sure had no hesitation about calling me, and every one of you, a traitor.
@PeakVT: That smarmy sack of crap and his “last honest man” bullshit schtick. Of all the people involved in the clusterfuck of 2016, I hate him the most. More even than the spraytanned freak, pretend president, who’s torching our reputation overseas right now. He’s just doing what freaks do. Comey, on the other hand, knew better and put him there anyway.
donnah
Honestly, I still cannot believe this man is our president. I mean, it seems completely impossible that he is. And hearing him speak publicly and seeing him with other world leaders is a huge embarrassment.
I watched Obama on C-Span the other night, accepting a Kennedy award. God, I miss him! He was funny, self-deprecating, gracious, eloquent… everything Trump will never be. It breaks my heart. And it seems it will only get worse.
japa21
@The Moar You Know: Do not conflate the Bush administration with the IC. The IC had lots of concern about the accuracy of WMD claims.
The Moar You Know
@japa21: And did what, exactly?
Oh that’s right. Carried Massa Bush’s water.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
My theory is: Vlad is taunting us by playing trump so blatantly. From Hillary Clinton to John McCain to Mitt Romney, every American who ever said they were going to get tough with Russia is now eating shit, two of them calling it chocolate mousse out of partisan loyalty and gutlessness, while they watch Putin hold hands with trump.
ETA: more than one “objective” journalist, not tucker carlson/byron york types, seemed genuinely impressed by the crass manipulation of trump’s ego in Saudi Arabia. “Wow, they like him! Look at the size of that head!”
Another Scott
@The Moar You Know: Cheney, or more specifically David Addington went around the IC and the Constitution and trumped up (heh) the excuses for war with Iraq.
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
Aleta
-from Shareblue
Major Major Major Major
A 400-pound guy in bed in New Jersey, or his son Barron, for insnace.
Aleta
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: That’s horrible.
gvg
@Another Scott: Actually I think the DPRK is going to collapse on it’s own based on the other communist countries dramatic collapses and others gradual slide into capitalism such as Vietnam and China and I hope next Cuba. The thing is this extreme pariah status this government has sought and uses to keep their subjects from realizing what they are missing. At some point though I think the starvation threat is going to collapse them with little warning. We are bad at knowing when based on past getting it wrong guesses about USSR and others so I have no confidence in any predictions but China has a lot of problems with this scenario. they don’t want foreign refugees. Somehow we need to be getting together wiht them to make plans about what will need to happen then. We can’t effect this right now while we are ruled by xenophobic idiots.
Kathleen
@Manyakitty: @The Moar You Know: Not all of them by any means. The career analysts disagreed with Bush and Co. Remember when Cheney started leaning on them to change reports ?
The Dangerman
Clearly, some organ is getting blown.
Major Major Major Major
@Another Scott:
Gosh, it’s almost starting to feel intentional.
Betty
That”very, very bad behavior” quote is exactly what Cheryl Rofer recently discussed on her blog- Trump treating North Korea like he is the dad and their leader is his child. What a mess.
d58826
On MSNBC they are talking about NK and Der Fuhrer’s tweets, etc.
According to one guy: for tactical negotiating tactics we have to say ‘all options on the table’ which includes a military option. Ok fine. But since every one, including the NK, realize that the military option is not really viable, what does it prove to rattle our rockets?
chopper
I’ve seen more eloquence in a dick and jane book.
d58826
@The Moar You Know: IC community informs the policy makers they don’t make policy.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
Oh,everybody knows for sure Donald.
Projecting again, are we? Is that what El Presidente Trump would like to do? To be a dictator who uses the state to destroy his enemies? He does admire Vlad the Impaler.
Iowa Old Lady
I really hate Trump’s use of meaningless modifiers like “very” and “great.” He’s made “beautiful” meaningless too. The use diminishes the amount of meaning per words. It rots the listener’s brain.
gvg
@The Moar You Know: that isn’t really the kind of situation where they are supposed to contradict the CIC. First nobody could be certain and everybody actually knew that so even the statements that were more accurate were more along the lines of “its probably not true”. Second, presidents AND Spys have been wrong before. Presidents get to decide. Bush was an American who wanted certain answers but he thought (stupidly) that what he wanted was in our best interests. Our country says civilian control, elected control. IC is aimed at protecting us from outside enemies, not so much when we want to shoot ourselves in the foot.
Trump is both our own idiocy AND foreign manipulation with the possibility that (not too likely but it’s there) he didn’t really win even the electoral college. Its also still a foreign threat in that Trump is a gullible blabbermouth who wants to be bribed and thus is forever a threat to the country. The only reason I think the IC hasn’t been even more direct against him is that he was (probably) elected by our own rules.
James Powell
@Another Scott:
You know who else never gets enough blame/credit for the Iraq Debacle? The American people. Their love of blowing up shit & killing brown people to make themselves feel better enables & empowers assholes like Cheney & the Neo-Cons.
WaterGirl
I nominate this for a rotating tag for as long as the orange piece of shit is president.
(Do we have a link or a button for this yet?)
catclub
@Another Scott: Who is the ex-governor of New Mexico, who has long experience with DPRK? Bill Richardson.
His views are also worth hearing.
d58826
Listening to the analysis of what Der Fuhrer expects from China. He is disappointed with China because he had rolled out the red carpet and the Chinese did not lean on NK . The reporter talked about how hard Trump had worked to establish a personal relationship the Xi. Now maybe it is nice if the leaders like each other but at the end of the day nations have interests not friends. China is going to do what is in China’s interest and not America’s unless they happen to coincide.
Another Scott
@gvg: I too think that it will eventually collapse on its own (and I agree it will be rapid once it starts), unless there’s massive Chinese support (and unless there’s some sort of agreement with SK and the rest of the world). Things like this are not sustainable. The South is much safer, (presumably) happier, etc., and the people in the North have to know that.
But who knows when it will happen, and what will follow….
Cheers,
Scott.
Chris
“They” were not wrong. The politicians who distrusted them, refused to listen to them, ordered them to say certain things, and in some cases created brand new intelligence shops under their direct supervision so that they could be absolutely sure they were saying the right thing, were wrong.
Christ, this fucking Beltway narrative in which Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld were naive innocent little lambs who were totally misled by the errors of the CIA is one of the worst thing about the Iraq War retrospectives.
Frankensteinbeck
@d58826:
And Trump is going to what is in China’s interest, because it’s in his interest that they keep giving him money. America’s interests will be represented solely (and badly) by inane public posturing.
Peale
@d58826: I believe the military option isn’t viable, but it is still less stupid than yelling at China and Russia to do something. Why should they?
I do like the idea of sanctioning countries that trade with NK. NK’s economy is tiny. After China, the next biggest trading partners are India at $145M the Philippines at $89M. Let’s beat up on the Philippines! and Thailand! India is too important as a trading partner.
WaterGirl
What is it with Trump and his very very very excessive use of adjectives and adverbs? He’s like a small child who just learned about them and has to use them to excess. Kind of like me with make-up when I was 17. I know I used more make-up in that one year than in all the years that came after.
One of these days I will have to post the photo of me at 17 wearing my purple crushed velvet pantsuit and a ton of make-up.
randy khan
Leaving aside the obvious untruth there – Obama took several significant steps, including going to Congressional leaders to see if he could get Republicans to agree it was important to release the information as a way of avoiding a political firestorm – the idea that Trump is criticizing Obama for not doing something that could have devastated his campaign is quite bizarre.
Chris
@Another Scott:
This.
Gin & Tonic
Interesting numbers here. The highest approval rating Trump has in non-Russian Europe is in Hungary. Second-highest (at 23%!) is in Poland.
What those two countries have in common is left as an exercise for the reader.
catclub
@Peale: Someone mentioned that Russia’s trading with NK has gone up. Also, China – which is the main trade partner,
but no mention of Russia increasing trade by Trump.
germy
WaPo
Chris
@gvg:
Whether or not Russia is in fact manipulating this fool, it’s in their interest to make it look to everyone else as though they are manipulating this fool. It massively reduces the credibility of the United States while at the same time encouraging more people to deal with them. That moment when Mahmoud Abbas asked Putin earlier this year to put some pressure on his American puppet to make Israel more reasonable? They live for that stuff.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@James Powell: It’s funny how no one ever blames the voters. I can understand it from a political point of view. “Our problems as a nation are all ultimately you’re fault” isn’t a winning campaign slogan. But in other spheres of life, not many want to talk about this. To do so would admit that sometimes democracy can fail and is only as good as the people participating.
We’ve been insulated for centuries: first due to our relative isolation from Great Powers then due to our superpower status post ww2. I think this insulation, at the risk of sounding like a RWNJ, has made us soft and arrogant, especially now. My fellow Americans feel entitled to all the perks and prestige that go along with being a superpower. They’re about to find out what happens when you lose that status; that we’re not the greatest nation and that history did not stop when the Soviet Union collapsed. Picking on weaker countries for much of our history is also to blame
d58826
@Another Scott: Max Boot had a tweet the other day and in a nutsell he said – we survived the USSR, we have survived China and Russia. We will survive NK and they, like the USSR, will collapse. Short version – George Kennan’s containment policy.
One of the things that I find upsetting about this is ‘NK is a threat to the world’ rhetoric. Sounds like the build up to Iraq. NK is a threat but to the world? NK’s weapons program is designed for regime survival not world or even regional conquest.
Chris
@The Moar You Know:
You’re pissed off at the wrong people, unless by “the IC” you mean “the political appointees at the top of the IC.” As with Rumsfeld’s clique and the military, much of the Bush administration’s work was directed at keeping the career people in line. Remember Valerie Plame’s outing?
Gin & Tonic
@germy:
Local sources are saying lots of people were bused in to boost the numbers.
Amir Khalid
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
So Trump is admitting that he was in cahoots with the Russians, and claiming that Obama gave him a pass on it only because Obama figured he, Trump, was going to lose.
Doesn’t make sense. We all know Obama didn’t let up on such a big threat — not merely to Hillary’s chances but, far more seriously, to American democracy. He kept the DoJ on it. It was the Republican party that didn’t want the matter brought before the public, and threatened to make a big partisan stink over it.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@d58826:
It’s also extremely laughable considering NK’s population, quality of arms, and soldiers.
Edit: even with ICBMs
rikyrah
@gvg:
Have said from the beginning…
The IC can deal with Presidents that they disagree with.
They can deal with Presidents that they think are weak.
They can deal with Presidents whose policies that they believe aren’t good for their bottom line..
THIS.WAS.NEVER.THAT.SITUATION.
We have, for the first time, an IC that honestly and truly believes…
THAT.THE.PRESIDENT.OF.THE.UNITED.STATES.IS.AN.ASSET.OF.A.HOSTILE.FOREIGN.POWER.
The one group of people in America who have NEVER forgotten Vlad’s old job as Head of the KGB….
Are The Spooks.
They LITERALLY believe that THE PRESIDENT is a TRAITOR to this country…and not metaphorically speaking…
Chris
@James Powell:
Frankly, this.
A rational foreign policy is difficult in no small part because a lot of what the actual experts will tell you will contradict the notions of the idiots in the right half of the country (and quite a few others besides), and they’re just as upset by that as they are when any other kind of expert contradicts them.
rikyrah
?The Senate Finance Office is tallying calls from people who want a public hearing of the healthcare bill: (202)224-4515. It’s very easy? pic.twitter.com/VdWAUSTWKc
— Nick Decaro (@decaro_nick) June 28, 2017
Chris
@d58826:
Yep: this is the bog-standard conservative belief at work that foreign policy depends entirely on having the Right Man in office, because if the Right Man is Manly and Badass enough, everyone will respect us and fear us and do what we want them to do. The fact that there are sharp limits to how much you can impose on the world no matter who you are, that other countries’ national interests aren’t going to change simply because you said so, and that you yourself can’t do a whole hell of a lot if you refuse to listen to all the people who actually know this shit, is inconvenient and therefore unmentioned.
?BillinGlendaleCA
OT: Well that was fun, the app that allows me to control my camera from my phone updated last night. Good thing I noticed and checked it because I have a photo shoot tonight that requires that I use a remote shutter which the app provides. They updated it to fix problems with the app and Android 7.0, but broke it on Android 6.x which my phone runs. I’d love to upgrade to Android 7.0 on my phone but Samsung won’t upgrade a phone older than 2 years old. I ended up downloading the older version of the app and sideloading and stopping auto updates. It now works, but this is what pisses me off with Android. The app and phone are Samsungs, this is one thing the fruity company gets right by upgrading their software on all(or most) of their hardware.
/rant over
O. Felix Culpa
@Another Scott:
I’m shocked, SHOCKED to hear this. To borrow from TaMara’s post, poltroons will be poltroons.
germy
@Gin & Tonic:
Chris
@rikyrah:
I know there are a lot of movies and stories out there depicting the collapse of the United States, but I never thought the most true to life one would be “G. I. Joe: Retaliation.” Right down to the President trolling North Korea…
O. Felix Culpa
@Gin & Tonic:
Me! Me! I know – nasty rightwing, nationalistic governments with a history of virulent anti-semitism. Am I right? Do I get a prize?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Amir Khalid: Trump is all about obvious projection. He flat out admits that the awful shit he accuses others of doing is exactly what he would do given the chance. Don’t expect the Republicans to act,unless they’re directly threatened with electoral ruin; they largely agree with him
gvg
@Chris: I think we need to begin a susbstained push for the next several decades over and over again, brains matter, education matters, being right counts, reputation matters. No idiots are not my equal. No one is expert in everything and smart adults find smart help and delegate to people who turn out to be right. Also say prove it alot and listen when someone does even if it’s not your preferred conclusion. Also quit being so scarred of fake boogymen.
Next election I want to hear lots of democratic candidates saying my opponent said x, he/she was wrong and here is the supporting evidence. We should do y from now on.
Also Obama care works mostly fine. Republicans have been trying to sabotage it and give more tax cuts to the wealthy. It could use some minor tweaks such as z, mainly to prevent more sabotage. Free market has had decades to work correctly but never has so pay attention.
gene108
@The Moar You Know:
I’m not.
Even after all the bullshit, like Powell’s testimony at the U.N., by October 2002 the IAEA weapons inspectors were on the ground looking where we thought he might have WMD’s.
We’d know, by June 2003, if Saddam credibly had WMD’s, if we let the inspectors do their job.
All the bluster scored a huge success with getting the inspectors back in, since Saddam kicked them out in 1998.
The decision to go to war is 100% George Walker Bush’s goddamn fault.
He ultimately decided regime change had to happen.
The threat of Saddam with WMD’s was being addressed by the weapons inspectors.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@The Moar You Know:
Question: didn’t the IC originally say there was no evidence linking Iraq to 9/11? And Bush/Cheney said, Go back, look some more.
So the IC did and again said, Nope, nothing.
Once more Cheney, Inc. said, Look some more.
Finally the IC gave them the intel they wanted and off to war we went with Dems endorsing (based on the bogus intel).
Anyone else have this take?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@West of the Rockies (been a while): That’s how I’ve always understood it. The admin wanted certain results and didn’t stop until they got their casus belli
d58826
@Chris: Natives are no longer impressed with white man’s fire sticks. They now have their own fire sticks!!!!!
Heywood J.
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Yep. I’ve always felt that Walt Kelly was overly optimistic.
ruckus
@chopper:
That’s because Dick and Jane books were/are written for a higher level of maturity than drumpf possess.
ruckus
@randy khan:
Like everything about drumpf isn’t bizarre.
Steeplejack (phone)
@d58826:
Jee-sus. Trump fed him chocolate cake and listened to him explain Korea for 10 minutes. Great work!
gene108
@West of the Rockies (been a while):
Nope.
Bush & Co’s justification for getting authority to use force in Iraq was that either Saddam lets the weapons inspectors in or we go use military force. What he told Congress was he needed a big stick to get inspectors in. It was never openly stated he wanted a war of naked aggression.
The WMD menace was never explicitly stated as a need for war and regime change.
Liberals just assumed Bush & Co are lying sacks of shit, who could not be trusted to keep their word about not going to war, if certain conditions were met.
Saying IC, Dems, etc facilitated the war let’s Bush off the hook for sending in the troops. This was solely his decision, and no one else’s
Steeplejack (phone)
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Rant appreciated. This was useful, because I’ve been meaning to ask you if it’s possible to get an Android update other than from the phone provider. My beloved but aging Moto X is running Android 5.1 and hasn’t had a system update since May 2016.
Stan
@Another Scott:
Not quite. Big, heavy, Hiroshima-type atomic bombs are 70 years old, yes. Small ones that can be mounted on ICBMs date from the 1960s…
Intermediate-range ballistic missiles existed in the 1940s but were so inaccurate and unreliable that they were almost useless. The US didn’t have really reliable ICBMs till the 1960s and the type of thing everyone’s talking about today, with the DPRK possibly being able to hit US territory, is still very uncommon. And the word ‘possibly’ is doing most of the work in that sentence.
So if you’re trying to say this technology is really old news, I think you’re mistaken. The combination of things needed to hit the US from the DPRK is still pretty advanced stuff.
Stan
@japa21:
That’s true. It was pretty obvious at the time what was going on – our former friends in NATO had it figured out, in public, when they said the intel was being cooked to match the policy that had already been decided.
Chris
@Stan:
Who has it right now? Just us, the Russians, the Chinese, the British and the French?
Stan
@d58826:
Right, but, they’re very clever in how they ‘defend’ themselves. basically South Korea and Japan are hostages. As we’ve all probably heard, the US could quickly defeat DRPK forces – but not fast enough to prevent Japan and South Korea from “getting their hair mussed”.
HeleninEire
Late to the thread, but really this is why our press sucks. The answer to “why didn’t Obama do anything?” Is ” You just said ‘nobody knows who did it’. It is now 8 months later. What should Obama have done given that nobody knows who did it 8 months later?'” Also, too, “BITCH”
The Moar You Know
@Chris: Late reply better than none.
United States
Britain
France
Russia
China
Ukraine (gave them up)
South Africa (gave them up)
Israel
North Korea
Pakistan
India
More to come, certainly.
Chris
@The Moar You Know:
That’s everybody with the proven capacity to make nuclear weapons – I meant ICBM tech, the ability to deliver said nukes to the other side of the world with enough precision to hit, at least, the city you were aiming for.
Stan
@Chris: Yeah.
British and French missiles obviously are pointed at Putin, not us, and I cant imagine a scenario in which that would be otherwise.
Other countries have the bombs but not the ICBMs as far as I know – Pakistan, India, Israel for sure.
Folks may also want to ponder the fact that there are much easier ways of getting a nuke into a US city besides throwing it there on a missile.
Hal
Yeah. The logic here is escaping me. Obama thought Clinton was going to win, so he didn’t do jack shit about Russia, who were actively trying to help Trump. Which not only seems a tacit acknowledgement on Trump’s part that he needed the aid, but that it also worked.
The Moar You Know
@Chris: Sorry. There’s a few countries with the ICBM capabilities but no nukes, like Japan. I’ll restrict to nuclear powers that have rockets capable of getting such a payload to where they might want it:
United States
Britain
France
Russia
China
Israel
India
Criteria for inclusion: have a rocket that has reliably gotten a decent sized payload into low Earth orbit.
Chris
@Stan:
@The Moar You Know:
Thanks!
Well, my understanding is that the basic use of ICBMs is as a deadman switch – you can destroy my country, but you can’t do it so quickly that I won’t have time to press the button and do the same to yours, or at least damage it far worse than you’re willing to accept. Smuggled nukes could hypothetically do the same thing, but it’s far less reliable and you’d have to have them all in place already. Smuggled nukes are for if you really are trying to nuke something, and not just make yourself untouchable.
Raoul
One wonders what the GOP has had in mind all these years. Let’s roll back to Shrub:
He was right about the last part, sort of. In the sense of Putin wanting what’s best for Putin, hence for Russia (and her oligarchs), but probably not down to the individual workers, children, retirees, voters.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Steeplejack (phone): If you feel adventurous, you could try XDA and see if there are 3rd party ROMs available for your phone/carrier. Google only requires as part of their licensing for Android that manufactures provide for 2 major updates(there are exceptions where there may only be one) of their phones, then you have to add the carriers into the mix.
Stan
@Chris:
The technology and organization to ‘smuggle’ them here is so much easier than sending them here on a missile. Hell, I wouldn’t even resort to smuggling.
And please don’t be so sure no one hasn’t already got a few parked somewhere. If that alarms you, consider how it’s any different from what you knew before….it’s not.
Rasputin's Evil Twin
Damn, Putin is going to play this fool like a kazoo.
Thank you; I’ve been wondering what kind of sound Trump would make when he’s Putin’s “cock holster”, and that’s got to be it.
Chris
@Stan:
Giving the order to start shipping some nukes to the United States when you hear that American ICBMs are coming for you is slower than having your ICBMs shoot back, and the chances of interception are still higher. Having the nukes already in place gets around that problem, but then you’re always running the risk that the nukes could be found and disarmed, or even tampered with to make you think they were still working fine. It’s just not the same as having your own arsenal in your own country ready to launch at a moment’s notice.
Another Scott
@Stan: Point taken. 50+ years rather than 70+. ;-p
The main point, though was this. Yes, they are making progress, and yes they have achieved some things. And yes they can build upon what their friends and suppliers have learned over the years. These are solvable problems, and the DPRK will solve them if they want to badly enough. Jaw-jaw about coming to an understanding will have a better chance of preventing them from proceeding than jaw-jaw about war-war. There’s no technological solution to this problem (given enough time).
My underlying view is that Donnie is still in his BMOC mode of thinking that he can bully any country into doing whatever he wants. (Recall Cheryl’s post about his brilliant idea of teaming up with the USSR to threaten everyone with nuclear war if they didn’t give up their weapons.) That’s why he’s all hot and bothered about the DPRK – they’re not following his playbook and behaving themselves as he would like. Will Donnie actually do something stupid like attack them soon? Who knows. But his threats are not going to make them stop – they’re the perfect justification to keep going as fast as they can (and for Xi and Putin to “tut-tut don’t do that” to Kim).
My $0.02.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
Seth Owen
@Stan: I would be pretty sure. I believe there is technology that can detect the radiation given off, and I expect the government has that base covered. In addition, nuclear weapons require maintenance and degrade over time, so you could not just smuggle some in with some vague plan to use them at some unspecified future date. Any smuggling attempt would have a planned use date. This would be extremely high risk, of course, especially for a government, as there is inherently a risk of discovery.
It all makes for a thrilling Tom Clancy novel but seems impractical for a government to ever consider. Naturally terrorists operate under a different set of incentives, but they don’t have the resources of a state to build, maintain and deliver a nuke.
ICBMs are much more useful as a deterrent.
Another Scott
@The Moar You Know: Belarus and Kazakhstan (former USSR) gave theirs up, also too.
Cheers,
Scott.
pluky
@rikyrah: were you Jeremiah in a previous life? having followed your posts over some time the theme of inequity preceding doom is strong! for if the IC truly thinks the president is a traitor, then so does the military. of such are coups d’etat born.
Groucho48
@The Moar You Know:
A lot of the problem is that Cheney and Rumsfeld were getting the raw data sent directly to their intelligence analysts, who would declare unvetted, raw info to be 100% true. Yellow cake from Africa. al Qaeda in Iraq. Iraq meeting with al Qada in Europe, etc. The IC would say…wait, those are just tips and rumors, we need to check them out, but, it would be too late. They couldn’t say the rumors were false, because, they didn’t know, yet.