Rhetorical Answer (Open Thread)

The Trump-Ryan plan to cut taxes for billionaires under the guise of healthcare reform is so fucking horrible and unpopular that Republicans are hiding like they ratted out a mob boss. Unable to defend said plan in a way that doesn’t instantly garner “pants on fire” ratings from media watchdogs, the GOP’s social media geniuses took a different approach, rhetorically asking Democrats how they’d fix healthcare, if they’re so damned smart, huh?

Clinton replied:

There’s a lot of angst about the state of the Democratic Party right now, much of it justified. But let’s not lose sight of the fact that the Republican Party is an absolute shit-show — a dysfunctional collection of meatheads who are tasked with governing and communicating policy and flailing badly on virtually every front at home and abroad.

Open thread!

188 replies
  1. 1
    Karmus says:

    But her emails!

  2. 2
    Msb says:

    GOP asking a policy wonk a question. Did they really think she wouldn’t have an answer?

  3. 3

    You know, if Hillary had just pointed out that she had a healthcare policy during the campaign, instead of ranting and raving about how all white men should forcibly undergo sex reassignment surgery and convert to Islam, none of this would have happened.

  4. 4
    smintheus says:

    Republicans are hiding like they ratted out a mob boss

    Fits. They wrote the healthcare bill in clandestine fashion as if they were mobsters planning their next ‘business’ move.

  5. 5
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    Unable to defend said plan in a way that doesn’t instantly garner “pants on fire” ratings from media watchdogs, the GOP’s social media geniuses took a different approach, rhetorically asking Democrats how they’d fix healthcare, if they’re so damned smart, huh?

    You fucking idiots control the entire government. This all on you. If you’re too stupid to figure out a good plan, then actually ask some experts on health insuranace and healthcare. Oh wait, they’re all a bunch of pointy headed libtards. Better to just throw a bunch of word salad shit together, make sure the worst consequences will be felt ten years from now, continue to suppress voters and just keep cracking down until an actual bloody revolution happens that ends with them each getting a bullet to the head.
    And why are they still going after Clinton? The election is over.

  6. 6
    The Moar You Know says:

    “We’ve got to fix what’s broken.” Where’s your plan, @HillaryClinton?

    THEY ASK OF THE WOMAN WHO LITERALLY WROTE IT BACK IN 1994.

    Christ, Republicans these days are so fucking stupid if you wrote them into a book as a fictional entity nobody would believe it.

  7. 7
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Karmus: Buttery Male!

  8. 8

    @The Moar You Know: I’m basing a particularly incompetent demon off of them, actually.

  9. 9
    lollipopguild says:

    Having decided that “Obamacare is a disaster” the Gop gang of clueless morans is demanding that the Democrats come in and save them? Sort of like an arsonist who is trapped in a building that he set on fire demanding that the Fire Dept. rescue him.

  10. 10
    Mike in NC says:

    Torn between avoiding all upcoming TV coverage of Trump’s latest excursion abroad to embarrass and humiliate the nation, or savoring his being laughed at and ridiculed by our allies and adversaries alike. Tough call.

  11. 11
    piratedan says:

    where’s “your” plan…

    you mean the one that has been in place for the last eight years that you refused to address because it was the legacy legislation of the first black man in office that you’ve had the last six plus years to examine and make better but have refused to do so in a combination flounce of pithy disdain and outright racism? That plan?

    if these guys hadn’t embraced partisanship and just became boring conservative policy wonks again, it’ll be too fucking soon.

  12. 12
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @lollipopguild: There’s no white knight riding over the hill to save them this time. I hope this whole Russia thing destroys them

  13. 13
    lollipopguild says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: I am hoping that they get a double whammy-Russia-which shows the party leadership as traitors and trumpcare which shows the entire party as heartless whackos.

  14. 14
    Comrade Colette Collaboratrice says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Hey libtard! Until you’ve been actually been forced to undergo sex reassignment surgery and convert to Islam, you have no right to talk.

    /wingnut

  15. 15
    The Moar You Know says:

    And why are they still going after Clinton? The election is over.

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: The GOP understands the politics of hatred, which leaves Dems at a huge disadvantage when trying to understand them at times. We know her as Hillary Clinton, another person. They see her as The Head Other, Satan, foreigners and black folks personified together in one huge, monstrous being. Jung would have had a field day with today’s politics.

    They did it because going after Hillary always works, something the NRA has knows for decades. There’s a reason her name is in every mailer they’ve sent out in the last 30 years. It works. Every time. They really should give her a medal, the NRA should. She’s probably made them well north of a billion dollars.

  16. 16
    randy khan says:

    I’m only surprised that it took her 5 hours to respond. Maybe she was playing with her grandchildren. (I hope she was.)

    I can’t even imagine how stupid you have to be to post the initial tweet, especially considering how many people probably had to review it before it was posted. It’s like there aren’t any professionals working for the GOP these days.

  17. 17
    hellslittlestangel says:

    But let’s not lose sight of the fact that the Republican Party is an absolute shit-show …

    Unfortunately, it’s the shit-show the American people have demanded. (Yes, not all of us, just enough of us.)

  18. 18
    debbie says:

    I’m sure I saw something over the weekend about Bannon advocating for a tax increase for billionaires. Am I misremembering?

  19. 19
    Hunter Gathers says:

    There’s a lot of angst about the state of the Democratic Party right now

    Most of the angst seems to flow from white dudes who think that we should:

    A – tell women and their woman parts to fuck off
    B – tell minorities to fuck off
    C – apologize profusely for allowing women and minorities to use their Outdoor Voice
    D – lie to the country by proposing that breaking up Wal-Mart is the key to all that ails us
    E – tell children that getting an education is a waste of time, when they could spend that time Disrupting Markets, Uber style
    F – did I mention telling women and minorities to fuck off?

  20. 20
    Droppy says:

    That is so great. “If you’re so smart, where’s your plan, missy?” “Right where it’s always been, dumbass. Get back to me after nap time if you have any questions.”

  21. 21

    That’s awesome. Just makes my heart ache she’s not our president.

  22. 22
    A Ghost to Most says:


    This DOJ Letter May Be More Alarming Than Trump Commission’s Request For Voter Data

    As to the post, rumors of the death of our party have been greatly exaggerated.

  23. 23
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    The way the senate GOP was/is writing their bill reminds me of the old ‘smoke filled rooms’in which party bosses (in both parties) chose candidates and wrote platforms.

  24. 24

    @Hunter Gathers: E seems out of place, I thought we wanted to give the children free college in a way that mostly benefits the upper middle class.

  25. 25
    The Moar You Know says:

    Most of the angst seems to flow from white dudes who think that we should:

    @Hunter Gathers: Oddly enough, every white dude I’ve heard saying that shit has never been a Democrat.

    I’m sure they just want to help.

  26. 26
    SFAW says:

    My only quibble with Hitlary’s response to that idiotic tweet is that she shoulda wrote
    “Feel free to run w/it, assholes.”

  27. 27
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Hunter Gathers: It’s bad enough with Kyle Kulinski and his stupid Justice Democrats group looking to primary Dems Tea Party style next year. Instead of trying to build something themselves and prove their way forward worthy by winning an election against an R, they’d rather muscle in and destroy to create their own ineffectual party.

    So many people I know
    Come of age tense and bitter-eyed
    Can’t create so they just destroy
    C’mon!
    Let’s set someone’s dog on fire

  28. 28
    amygdala says:

    @Major Major Major Major: You, good sir, are on fire today. Thank you.

  29. 29
    Hunter Gathers says:

    @Major Major Major Major: E is what the Tech Bros preach. Wilmer wants free tuition for all to Private Snowflake University for Philosophy degrees. He’ll come around to their point of view once the checks from Silicon Valley start flowing into his 2020 campaign.

  30. 30
    SFAW says:

    OT (in an OT? Unpossible!): I’ve only been here sparingly of late, but I haven’t spotted any comments from TenguPhule. Vacation, gave up, banned?

  31. 31
    waspuppet says:

    … a dysfunctional collection of meatheads who are tasked with governing and communicating policy …

    See, that’s the thing. They didn’t sign up for governing and communicating policy; they just wanted to moan and complain on Twitter and then fundraise.

  32. 32
    Mai.naem.mobile says:

    What gets me is that there were a lot of Republicans around in 09. They know how complicated Obamacare was. There were a million moving parts. They were freaking there. Ryan, McCarthy,McConnell,Barrasso, Grassley know how many hearings there were. Yet,they have nothing ready to go after 8 years and that’s partly because Obamacare was about as conservative as you could get and still have basic needs there.

  33. 33
    d58826 says:

    In baseball what the GOP did is called a hanging curve. And Hillary did what any self-respecting long ball hitter would do – parked it in the outfield’s upper deck.

    For whatever good it will do us.

  34. 34
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @A Ghost to Most: They’re really angling for that civil war, aren’t they? What do they think is going to happen when they deprive millions of their voice in government? This same gov that has so much power of their lives? This is not going to end well. Would they be so brazen as to knock off white liberal voters as well?

  35. 35
    Yarrow says:

    @SFAW: Posted in a thread earlier today.

  36. 36
    different-church-lady says:

    But let’s not lose sight of the fact that the Republican Party American electorate is an absolute shit-show — a dysfunctional collection of meatheads

    Oh but I’m NOT SUPPOSED TO SAY THAT because then they’ll just… just… just continue to be who they are.

  37. 37
    d58826 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    ranting and raving about how all white men should forcibly undergo sex reassignment surgery and convert to Islam

    and we only knew about that as a result of her e-mails!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  38. 38
    Hungry Joe says:

    Was arguing … I mean, discussing issues with friends, and the question came up: What individual has done the most damage to the country in the last 25 years? So many candidates: Newt, W, Jerry Falwell or some simulacrum, Scalia, Robers, Trump, Ryan. But I pressed hard for Mitch McConnell. He engineered the bald-faced theft of a Supreme Court seat, making it likely that we’ll wither under a troglodytic Supreme Court for a generation; almost single-handedly broke the United States Senate; and is up to his chins in the toxic sludge that may well constitute what’s left of health care for tens of millions of people.

    For the record, I didn’t win the argument. The consensus was “all of the son-of-a-bitches” (sic).

  39. 39
    Roger Moore says:

    There’s a lot of angst about the state of the Democratic Party right now, much of it justified.

    The Democratic Party has the problems inherent to its status as a broad coalition. There’s surprisingly little argument about our basic stances on the issues but a lot of bickering about priorities. That bickering has gotten awfully heated, especially among activists who aren’t actually in a position to do anything about any of them, but it’s fundamentally normal given the diverse range of interests the party represents.

  40. 40
    patroclus says:

    I think it’s cool that Amelia Earhart is still alive after all these years.

  41. 41
    KS in MA says:

    @mapaghimagsik: Co-sign!

  42. 42

    @Hungry Joe:

    What individual has done the most damage to the country in the last 25 years?

    Richard Nixon, still, from the grave.

  43. 43
    Ksmiami says:

    The GOP must be buried – the ground salted over – who pray tell will be our next General Sherman

  44. 44
    NR says:

    @Hunter Gathers:

    Most of the angst seems to flow from white dudes 

    Um, no, sorry. Two-thirds of Americans think the Democratic party is out of touch. That includes 60 percent of non-white Americans and 59 percent of women.

    But go on pretending it’s just racist white people and/or misogynist men who think there are problems with the Democratic party. I’m sure that’s the ticket to finally winning next time.

  45. 45
    Brachiator says:

    @Msb:

    .GOP asking a policy wonk a question. Did they really think she wouldn’t have an answer?

    These GOP clowns are bone stupid. Unfortunately, their base will likely ignore any good idea that comes from a Democrat.

    The Republican leadership will double down with, “we would like to fix healthcare, but we dare not disturb the working of the free market.”

    I keep hearing GOP hacks talking about what’s good for insurance companies instead of trying to provide more health insurance coverage to more people.

  46. 46

    @ NR:

    My name is Little Debbie, baker to kings:
    Look upon my pies, ye Mighty, and despair!

    Ha! Hadn’t seen that one before.

  47. 47
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Major Major Major Major: If she only had refrained from calling racists “baskets of deplorables” and kicked minority voters to the curb, she’d be in the White House again!! Dang it.

  48. 48
    Geeno says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: That’s why they wanted the social security numbers – so they could tie in other demographic databases and get a complete demographic read on who is a democrat and who is a republican so they can suppress the former without overly impacting the latter. They’ve gotten about all they can from just suppressing blacks and poors.

  49. 49
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @NR:
    This is a fascinating topic, but I have to go now. The pie is ready.

  50. 50

    This post reminds me of the time Rs drank their own kool aid and were convinced Obama was stupid and ignorant. So they invited him to answer questions from them and let the cameras in. He pwned them.

  51. 51
    Geeno says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Rupert Murdock

  52. 52
    Leaving Texas says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    They see her as The Head Other, Satan, foreigners and black folks personified together in one huge, monstrous being

    Let’s not forget that she is female. I think it was here that someone pointed out she reminds a lot of these men of their ex-wives. The ex-wives who ran circles around them professionally and intellectually and then kicked them to the curb. I’ve seen some effed up hatred based on race and xenophobia, but the hatred of HRC seems a little more, erm, personal.

  53. 53
  54. 54
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @NR: So what’s the magical ticket to win next time?

  55. 55
    rikyrah says:

    @NR:
    You’re back…ho hum😒😒

  56. 56
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Iowa Old Lady: That is mad ironic given the idiot they now support. Trump is incapable of talking off the cuff about any policies, laws or regulations — unless they have a direct impact on him personally. He’s like the male version of Sarah “Time to Quit” Palin.

  57. 57
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Patricia Kayden: The opposite of whatever Dems are doing.

  58. 58
    Geeno says:

    LOL – I’ve never seen the pie filter in action before. That’s hysterical.
    Congratulations, NR, you’re the first to finally push me to the pie filter.

  59. 59
    NR says:

    @Patricia Kayden: I would suggest we start by listening to all those voters (which includes 44 percent of our own party, by the way) and figure out why they think the Democratic party is out of touch and what we can do to better address their concerns.

  60. 60
    Yutsano says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    unless they have a direct impact on him personally

    And even then he can’t make anything resembling a coherent argument. He can only really tell you how he feels.

  61. 61
    Tom says:

    @Hungry Joe: I’ve got to go with Roger Ailes. He was the fulcrum in the mass stupidity that is currently sweeping the country.

  62. 62
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Roger Moore: We should be okay. I can’t imagine that after all that Trump has put this country through in the last few months that many on our side are going to be comfortable with him for a full 8 years. His base may be strong but our base has every incentive to get its act together and get rid of Trump and every nasty sycophant he’s dragged to Washington with him. It doesn’t make any sense for us to despair.

  63. 63
    NR says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: You joke, but when what you’re doing clearly isn’t working, it’s time to try something new.

  64. 64
    NR says:

    @Geeno: Well I hope the sand you’re burying your head in isn’t too coarse.

  65. 65
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @NR: Wow. Just listen to people. No one’s ever thought of that before! You’re some kind of Aristotle or something. So when are you going to write your white paper?

  66. 66
    different-church-lady says:

    @NR: I’ve heard about 37 callers to sports radio programs offer deeper insights than that this afternoon alone.

  67. 67
    Yutsano says:

    @NR:
    It can’t involve abandoning abortion rights.

    It can’t involve abandoning civil rights.

    It can’t involve abandoning LBGTQ+ rights.

    It can’t involve insisting economic issues are the only ones to solve alone.

    If you disagree, the door is right there.

  68. 68
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @NR: There had to be something worth listening to in the first place. You also overestimate your own importance

  69. 69
    Mnemosyne says:

    @randy khan:

    I’m assuming it took her those 5 hours to stop laughing and sending the tweet to all of her friends saying, Can you believe these fucking morons?

  70. 70
    Turgidson says:

    @Hungry Joe:

    Even though he left the political scene more than 25 years ago, I’d vote for St. Ronaldus Magnus.

    His salesmanship of a morally repugnant governing philosophy is the poisonous tree from which so much of today’s political rot can be traced. And he took Nixon’s pathological dishonesty and upgraded it into a breezy lack of concern for facts that disagree with his narrative, which the GOP subsequently turned up to eleventy billion even before Hair Furor came along.

  71. 71
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NR: I wasn’t joking. I was predicting.

  72. 72
    Timurid says:

    You folks might need to find your fainting couches for this one, but the famously (and very litigiously) Christian retail chain Hobby Lobby might just be a front for organized crime.

  73. 73
    Geeno says:

    K – bailing now – it’s all pie all the time

  74. 74
    Turgidson says:

    And with respect to this thread, did the GOP really think they were unleashing some sort of brilliant zinger when they asked Hillary Clinton, of all the people on the planet, if she had a plan for health care? I mean…of all the people and all the subjects.

  75. 75
    debbie says:

    Sigh. Speaking of pie in a different way, does anyone know if there is a stand mixer that will fold gently enough to make macarons?

  76. 76
    different-church-lady says:

    “You know, when we shoot the basketball at the hoop, it doesn’t always go through.”
    “Well, we need to do something different.”
    “What would you suggest?”
    “Try kicking it. Or use the T-shirt cannon. JUST SOMETHING DIFFERENT!”

  77. 77
    KS in MA says:

    @Hungry Joe: What? Nobody mentioned Saint Ronnie? OK, he was outside the 25-year limit, but none of the rest would have been possible without him.

  78. 78
    raven says:

    One nice thing, Greta isn’t on MSNBC! Rachel really dropped the ball on that one.

  79. 79
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @different-church-lady: No concrete plans or strategies. Just grandstanding and whining. That’s NR and other braindeadenders like TYT and Kyle Kulinski for you

  80. 80

    @Turgidson: They invoked the magical words radical Islamic terrorHillary Clinton, so I’m sure they got a lot of retweets and donations.

  81. 81
    Roger Moore says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    So what’s the magical ticket to win next time?

    I think we’re supposed to conclude that defeat is inevitable and give up in despair.

  82. 82
    different-church-lady says:

    @raven: Villagers will always protect and champion villagers first. Rachel is no exception.

  83. 83
    debit says:

    No. I was going to respond to it, but no, I thought better of it. Pie filter for me too.

  84. 84
    different-church-lady says:

    @Roger Moore: Nonsense: all we need to do is “address” the needs of the White Working Class by lying to them more than the GOP does.

  85. 85
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Roger Moore: The ticket is to just sit down and shut up and do whatever our leftier-than-thou betters say. (And I’m saying this as a social dem.)

  86. 86

    @Roger Moore: Or talk about civil war, that’s the ticket.

  87. 87
    Jeffro says:

    @Msb:

    GOP asking a policy wonk a question. Did they really think she wouldn’t have an answer?

    And asking Hillary in July 2017?!? Truly the mind boggles…have they no spooky enemies and scary creatures to frighten voters with, anymore? Pathetic.

    Also, I don’t want a party running the country if they don’t know it’s a bad idea to bring a knife to a gun fight

  88. 88
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Timurid: Christianists committing crimes? You don’t say!!

    Notwithstanding these warnings, in December 2010, Hobby Lobby executed an agreement to purchase over 5,500 Artifacts, comprised of cuneiform tablets and bricks, clay bullae and cylinder seals, for $1.6 million. The acquisition of the Artifacts was fraught with red flags.

  89. 89
    Eric says:

    I was under the impression that dems could have given opinions at the public hearings…. oh. Wait.

  90. 90
    different-church-lady says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: 1) Nominate Bernie
    2) ?
    3) REVOLUTION!

  91. 91
    Jeffro says:

    @piratedan:

    if these guys hadn’t embraced partisanship and just became boring conservative policy wonks again, it’ll be too fucking soon.

    That’s the thing – OBAMACARE *IS* THEIR PLAN! It’s their blessed ‘market solution’ for bringing down costs while increasing coverage.

    Jesus, GOP, just declare victory and go home. Same thing on climate change – get a carbon tax going, even the most infinitesimal one possible, and call it a day. This whole running-on-spite thing is putting you in some pretty stupid positions…

  92. 92
    MomSense says:

    @Hungry Joe:

    I think it all stems from the Powell memo and the sort of blueprint it provided to moneyed interests, businesses and Republicans.

  93. 93
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Sorry, but if that shit about the DOJ letter and the Supreme Court hearing that case about voters unconstitutionally kicked off voter rolls in my fair state of Ohellno goes badly, then all bets are off. I’d prefer this get handled legally and peacefully, but the GOP isn’t interested in that. What do you think will happen when millions are disenfranchised? Just sit down and take it?

  94. 94
    JWR says:

    @Mai.naem.mobile:

    They were freaking there. Ryan, McCarthy,McConnell,Barrasso, Grassley know how many hearings there were.

    I mentioned recently that I heard Limbaugh’s opening segment, where he laid out that day’s show, and one thing he focused on was the “fact” that there was zero public, or Republican input during the passage of the PPACA. I’d always known him to be a big fat liar, and maybe it was just the mood I was in, but damn! That was an outright, freakin’ lie! But that’s AM radio after the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine.

  95. 95
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I have been informed that those are the only viable options.

  96. 96
    Hungry Joe says:

    @Turgidson: That’s why we stipulated “the last 25 years”: If you come anywhere near Reagan’s time he wins by acclimation, and there’s nothing to argue about. It’d be like arguing about the best band ever, and not immediately disqualifying the Beatles.

  97. 97
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:

    I don’t think that questions like “is a political party in touch with people” are very relevant. Who cares about the nebulous “Democratic Party”? Data shows both political party “brands” are pretty toxic at the National level, meaning that Democratic candidates in many places should be creating their own franchise spin-off brands that are tailored to their communities. The spin-offs will be diverse in their emphases, approaches, their relationship with the national brand, etc. With strong candidate “brands”, maybe we don’t need a strong national party “brand”.

  98. 98
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @NR: No doubt that listening is a great suggestion but I assume that listening doesn’t necessarily mean that you can put all of those who feel that the Democratic Party is out of touch at ease. I’m hoping that the DNC Chair is planning to go around this country and listen to voters’ concerns and address them in our eventual platform. That’s something that we can reach out to him to do. Not sure if that is the magic bullet though (if there really is one).

  99. 99

    @Patricia Kayden: I’m trying to picture what Hobby Lobby would do with genuine artifacts. Don’t they sell craft supplies?

  100. 100
    Brachiator says:

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    .This post reminds me of the time Rs drank their own kool aid and were convinced Obama was stupid and ignorant. So they invited him to answer questions from them and let the cameras in. He pwned them.

    Oh yeah, I remember that one. Good times.

  101. 101

    @Jeffro: While their party might run on spite, their legislation runs mostly on greed. This is why they can’t admit that climate change is real (or if it is real it’s not a problem, or if it’s a problem we aren’t causing it, or if we are we can’t stop it, etc.), or admit that health insurance is a right–that costs money.

    Obamacare and a carbon tax might be market-based solutions, but they’re solutions to problems that only liberals and leftists agree should be solved. (Also, a carbon tax is probably the best way to deal with climate change at the moment.) Also, fun fact, Obamacare is not a Republican plan. (The American Prospect does a good job dissecting that particular weird belief here.) It’s not even accurate to call it Romney’s plan, since, to quote from that link,

    What has retrospectively been described as “Romneycare” is much more accurately described as a health-care plan passed by massive supermajorities of liberal Massachusetts Democrats over eight Mitt Romney vetoes.

  102. 102

    @Omnes Omnibus: And endless gaming of scenarios, where Ds always lose.

  103. 103
    ruemara says:

    The only angst I have is how to get pig-headed liberals to comprehend that you’re as propagandized to as conservatives and that you’re missing key info, too. Like not knowing HRC was pushing for universal healthcare & a public option since her husband’s first term. Kicking the GOP in the teeth with the facts, that’s just the fun part.

  104. 104
    sharl says:

    @Iowa Old Lady: The president of Hobby Lobby (Steve Green) is also Chairman of the Board for the Museum of the Bible, scheduled to open in Washington DC this fall.

    The man has a museum to stock!!! Glory!

    By the way, I did a quick search of Twitter, and there was a lot of reporting on this in christian media at least as early as October 2015, when the FBI investigation apparently became known.

  105. 105
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @different-church-lady: Because Republicans would have gone very soft on a Jewish Socialist. They wouldn’t have called out their antisemitic hordes at all. No siree bob!! It’s just a coincidence that all these antisemitic trolls are coming out in force under Trump. They would have completely disappeared in the face of Presidential Candidate Sanders. Real talk.

  106. 106
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @different-church-lady: The dumb thing the whole debate is kind of stupid. When polled, the country largely and broadly agrees with Democratic solutions and policies. They also appear to either not know that they’re Democratic policies, or not believe that the party will actually follow through on those solutions.

    Not sure how you fix it. It’s a marketing issue.

  107. 107
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I don’t want civil war to happen. It’s just a prediction if we do not win in 2018 and 2020 and the GOP keeps this shit up. Desperate people will resort to desperate solutions

  108. 108
    trollhattan says:

    @Jeffro:
    Hidden, super-secret GOP message to the nation: “See what we saved you from? You can thank us now, America!”

  109. 109
    Jeffro says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    While their party might run on spite, their legislation runs mostly on greed. This is why they can’t admit that climate change is real (or if it is real it’s not a problem, or if it’s a problem we aren’t causing it, or if we are we can’t stop it, etc.), or admit that health insurance is a right–that costs money.

    Obamacare and a carbon tax might be market-based solutions, but they’re solutions to problems that only liberals and leftists agree should be solved.

    Sorry but have to disagree…a solid majority of Americans feel that our health care system and climate change are problems that need solving, and when they hear the details without party labels attached, they lean way Dem.

    Also, fun fact, Obamacare is not a Republican plan. (The American Prospect does a good job dissecting that particular weird belief here.) It’s not even accurate to call it Romney’s plan

    Actually, the entire framework was conceived at the Heritage Foundation, which was terrified of a single-payer system and wanted to put out a market-based plan to compete & defeat that. It started with Heritage -> became popular with Repubs -> was instituted by Romney and the Dems in MA -> led to much of Obamacare.

  110. 110
    Yarrow says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    I’m hoping that the DNC Chair is planning to go around this country and listen to voters’ concerns

    Didn’t he do that very recently? Brought that Vermont guy with him.

  111. 111

    @Jeffro:

    Actually, the entire framework was conceived at the Heritage Foundation, which was terrified of a single-payer system and wanted to put out a market-based plan to compete & defeat that. It started with Heritage -> became popular with Repubs -> was instituted by Romney in MA -> led to much of Obamacare.

    So you didn’t read the link at all, then.

  112. 112
    randy khan says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Yeah, that’s probably it.

  113. 113
    Kathleen says:

    @Karmus: If only she hadn’t been so busy becoming over prepared she would have campaigned in Wisconsin and would have magically become likable to “working class white guys”. Did I miss anything? Oh, yes. Emails.

  114. 114
    Kathleen says:

    @lollipopguild: I’m surprised they didn’t ask Bernie. After all, it was his plan.

  115. 115
    Jeffro says:

    @trollhattan: And they’ll go down thinking that’s what’s going to happen…just like they think we’re all paid protestors and those recent pro-Obamacare stories (when they asked for anti-Obamacare stories) in Indiana weren’t ‘real’ folks talking about their health issues.

    “Reality has a way of asserting itself” – some wise guy (now unemployed) just a few short months ago.

  116. 116
    Ksmiami says:

    @debbie: no as a pastry chef u really have to do it with a spatula by hand. True story I spent a week at a culinary school in Paris working exclusively on French macarons

  117. 117
    WaterGirl says:

    I am so disappointed! The way this thread showed up in Leaf (my RSS viewer) it appeared that this paragraph was Hillary Clinton’s response to the GOP and not a comment from Betty Cracker.

    There’s a lot of angst about the state of the Democratic Party right now, much of it justified. But let’s not lose sight of the fact that the Republican Party is an absolute shit-show — a dysfunctional collection of meatheads who are tasked with governing and communicating policy and flailing badly on virtually every front at home and abroad.

    I SO wanted that to have been Hillary Clinton’s response.

  118. 118
    a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio) says:

    @Timurid: Bwuahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. Hah.

    Excuse me, I appear to have laughed my ass off. Anyone see it lying around?

  119. 119

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: When you go on about civil war you are already assuming an electoral defeat. I prefer concentrating on fighting the battle in front of us instead of talking about the worst case scenario of four years hence. YMMV.

  120. 120
    Jeffro says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Your link doesn’t work, in the sense that it is one link. ;)

  121. 121

    @Ksmiami: You spent a week working on the French President? when was that?

    /lame joke

  122. 122

    @Jeffro: That’s, uh, quite a refutation of an article (written, incidentally, by an LGM blogger in Robert Reich’s magazine).

    ETA: Anyway, back to what I was saying originally, the ‘they’ who can’t believe in these things in order for their legislation to make sense referred to the Republican party, not voters as a whole.

  123. 123
    Kathleen says:

    @Patricia Kayden: Reposted from Dead Thread Below:

    If only she had asked America how its day went America wouldn’t have thrown its meat loaf and mashed potatoes at her.

  124. 124
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @schrodingers_cat: This is how I react sometimes to bad news to feel like there is some kind of justice in the world. I’m usually more positive than This, but that DOJ letter is disturbing me

  125. 125
    debbie says:

    @Ksmiami:

    Thanks. My boss is an incredible baker. She’s got a side business going for cakes, macarons, decorated cookies, etc. I believe she’s thinking about expanding the business when her kids get out of school. Recently, she’s developed a frozen shoulder and it was very sore after a weekend filling an order for a couple hundred macarons.

  126. 126

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: All the R moves are not going to be successful, they are not infallible.

  127. 127
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Neither were the Nazis, and look what carnage they caused before they were stopped.

    You’re right that all is not lost, but don’t kid yourself about how bad things can get

  128. 128
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Iowa Old Lady: Things that make you go hmmmmm. Perhaps sell them at a huge profit? Not sure since I don’t think like a thieving Christianist who puts his nose in women’s contraception decisions.

  129. 129
    satby says:

    Cleek is my god, I wasn’t able to pie anyone on Kindle before, and all the responses are pie sayings too! I LOVE this…makes N(ever)R(ight) worth having in a thread

  130. 130
    NR says:

    Boy, the amount of hostility generated by sharing some poll results here is really something to see.

    I’m not the one saying the Democratic party is out of touch, two-thirds of Americans are. Maybe you should examine why that fact makes you so defensive.

  131. 131
    elm says:

    @Jeffro: Nope. The Heritage plan demolished Medicare and Medicaid. The ACA is nothing like the Heritage plan.

    See the LGM summary.

  132. 132

    @ NR:

    Getting back on topic: Pie is not only delicious, it’s round, too!

    God, even with the pie filter on you can’t say a damn thing that’s true.

  133. 133
    NR says:

    @Yutsano:

    It can’t involve insisting economic issues are the only ones to solve alone.

    It is completely possible to work on social and economic issues in tandem. Civil rights leaders in the 1960s understood this. Case in point: the 1963 march on Washington was called “The March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom.”

  134. 134
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Kathleen: Ha!! Yes that’s the ticket. If only she were kinder and gentler.

    Such an annoying argument.

    @NR: Not hostile. You’ve stated your opinion and people can take it or leave it.

  135. 135
    Jeffro says:

    @Timurid: Unpossible! He’s a good, god-fearing Christian!

  136. 136
    Ksmiami says:

    @schrodingers_cat: after we went out for freedom fries /lol

  137. 137
    satby says:

    NR says:

    Yeah so I pretty much think pie is the greatest thing ever invented to put in one’s mouth.

    I believe that about you.

  138. 138
    Jeffro says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    the ‘they’ who can’t believe in these things in order for their legislation to make sense referred to the Republican party, not voters as a whole.

    Fair enough…everything I’ve seen shows something like 75% of Dems think climate change is real, is caused by humans, etc. Around 25% (SUSPCIOUSLY CLOSE TO 27%) of Republicans feel the same.

  139. 139
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @NR: Wahh! No one will listen to my stupid simplistic hot takes eleventy!!!!

  140. 140
    NR says:

    @Patricia Kayden: You’re not hostile, but plenty of other people are.

    And people are welcome to take or leave my opinion, but it’s a fact, shown by polling data, that discontent with the Democratic party is widespread and not just limited to white men. And it does no good to pretend otherwise.

  141. 141
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @NR

    Humble Pie was one of Peter Frampton’s early bands. I don’t know if they had songs about pie or not. I will assume they did.

    All you ever do is come here to concern troll about shit we here can’t control and grandstand without any real useful ideas of your own. Fuck off loser

  142. 142

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: I am an immigrant, I hear the R rhetoric loud and clear.

  143. 143
    Ksmiami says:

    @debbie: macarons are the bane of my existence they r so labor intensive and while beautiful not as fun as s’more pie- I’ll just say this your friend should test out the professional path by staging in a production bakery day in day out- it’s a different animal altogether. anyhoo best of luck to her

  144. 144
    Jeffro says:

    @Major Major Major Major: @elm: As for the particulars of what Obamacare ‘took’ from the Heritage Foundation, just 10 minutes of looking has produced quite a few opinions contrary to LGM and related articles. If it’s a market-based plan instead of single payer, then clearly it borrowed from conservatives. Let’s not get to bound to our favorite justifications (I won’t) and just acknowledge that it was much more along the lines of what Republicans/conservatives were pushing than anything Dems had going on at the time. Takes nothing away from Obamacare or Obama where it came from – it works.

  145. 145
    JWR says:

    @elm:

    @Jeffro: Nope. The Heritage plan demolished Medicare and Medicaid. The ACA is nothing like the Heritage plan.

    Totally agree. When designing any HC plan, there’s bound to be some overlap. (Well, not with these atrocious GOP plans.) But there are ways to get to a workable HC plan, so it’s not surprising that two radically different plans would have quite similar frameworks, or skeletons. In short, the Heritage plan is not the PPACA.

  146. 146
    SgrAstar says:

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    This post reminds me of the time Rs drank their own kool aid …

    That was one of my favorite Obama moments. Total smackdown, thing of beauty.

  147. 147

    @Jeffro: If you’re unwilling to give what I consider to be a very high-quality article about the topic credence because it’s one article, I’m certainly not going to care about the raw number of articles of unknown provenance you’ve found while googling it.

    IMO this is a zombie lie of the left.

  148. 148

    @Major Major Major Major: Don’t worry this will have as much effect as explaining what neo-liberal means.
    Its like pouring water over an upturned vessel, nothing goes in.

  149. 149
    OGLiberal says:

    @NR: I agree the Dem was party has messaging issues. But with the shit show we have now, not Donald Trump/Ryan//McConnell should be enough to get any non-brainwashed people to the polls. Seriously, it is and has been that bad and straightforward. Simply “not these fucking idiots/lunatics” should be enough. If it isn’t, we’ll, then we’re just fucked because it should be. My fucking home schooled, pre-teen kids whom we protect as much from partisan politics as possible know that Donald Trump is a buffoon and the GOP is mean. If the majority of voting Americans – where it matters – can’t realize this themselves without some sort of genius messaging blitz from the Dems and get out and vote against the idiocy and evil then maybe our country deserves the idiocy and evil. We shouldn’t need fancy ad campaigns for people to realize that side GOP doesn’t give a fuck about you and only wants to give more money to rich folks while patronizing folks who care mostly about unborn fetuses v. Live children and married gay folks who have zero impact on their life outside of the one-time conversation they’ll have to have with their kids about Steve’s two moms to which said kid will shrug and say “whatever” or “yeah, knew that already”. And that Dems, while far from perfect, want to prevent old people, poor people and kids from dying. It’s that black and white and obvious. But people choose the obvious evil because at least it will result in blacks and fags hurting more than they do. We don’t change that without a bunch of people dying and where I’m at in Northeast PA, not sure that will matter much because the young folks aren’t much better.

    Sorry to be cynical but recent discussions with people I believe are smart, sentient and, at least to my family, good people, have lead me to believe that until white people are about 35 percent of the voting population or less, we’re fucked because most of them believes that all that ails them are lazy brown people with a side of gays and secular humanists and scientists who surmise that global warming is an actual problem.

    I mean, for the love of pete, you meet somebody, think they are normal and smart, and 10 minutes late they are talking about how the gays and the freemasons have taken over the Vatican and altar girls are an abomination. Oh, and Chris Christie is also a socialist abomination. What world do these fucking people live in? I have a friend who, in 2008, voted for McCain but really wanted to vote for Kucinich. That he knows even who Dennis Kucinich is means he’s at least somewhat aware. But, Obama got the nom over my guy, Kucinich, so I’m going to vote for McCain and that lunatic idiot from Alaska?

    WTF????

  150. 150

    @schrodingers_cat: What if the vessel has a concave stand on the bottom, though?

  151. 151

    @Major Major Major Major: Still no water inside the pot.

  152. 152

    @schrodingers_cat: But if you keep it upside-down you have a birdbath!

  153. 153
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:

    @NR: With a good candidate (“in touch” with their prospective voters), why would voters care whether or not that candidate’s party was “out of touch”? I don’t see this as necessarily a big problem – the Parties both get beat up on all the time, and close associations with the national party aren’t usually image-enhancing for candidates. National Party may be able to help in some ways (like $ support), but each candidate should be shaping their own political brand.

  154. 154
    frosty says:

    @Geeno:

    LOL – I’ve never seen the pie filter in action before. That’s hysterical. Congratulations, NR, you’re the first to finally push me to the pie filter.

    Me too, first time. Thanks for making it so easy Alain and M^4!

  155. 155

    @frosty: You’re mighty welcome.

  156. 156
    NR says:

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: There’s only so far that a candidate can run from their own party, though. Also, a party’s message is decided by its leadership, and if that leadership is out of touch, that causes problems.

  157. 157
    different-church-lady says:

    @NR: YOU HAVE BEEN UNFAILINGLY POLITE!

  158. 158
    Turgidson says:

    @Hungry Joe:

    Yeah, that’s fair enough. Absent Ronnie I’d vote for that assface Newt Gingrich, who did more than anyone besides maybe Ailes to weaponize and mainstream the unhinged, fact-challenged, “libtards and the Democrat Party”-type assholery that is now a prerequisite for being a Republican public figure of any sort.

  159. 159
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Jeffro:

    If it’s a market-based plan instead of single payer, then clearly it borrowed from conservatives.

    Or politicians looked at the reality that, between 1992 and 2008, the majority of health insurers switched from being nonprofits to being for-profit, so they had to deal with the facts on the ground rather than continue to assume the primarily non-profit marketplace that had existed 16 years before.

    Saying that building Obamacare based on 2008’s reality is automatically “conservative” is a very odd thing to say.

    ETA: Masscare passed in 2006 when the reality of for-profit healthcare was undeniable.

  160. 160
    Mnemosyne says:

    @NR:

    Yes, we know, if the Democrats would just dump racial equality and abortion rights, white voters will flock back to them. You’ve said this a million times before, which is why nobody cares anymore.

    The fact that you’re ignoring the ramped-up voter suppression efforts by the Trump administration shows that, as usual, you’re ignoring the reality of how the Republicans have kept up their winning streak. And at this point, we realize that you don’t give a shit that your fellow American citizens are being denied their right to vote.

  161. 161
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Jeffro: What about the Swiss system?

  162. 162
    NR says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Yes, we know, if the Democrats would just dump racial equality and abortion rights, white voters will flock back to them. 

    As was clearly stated, the poll I cited indicated that 60 percent of non-white Americans think the Democratic party is out of touch. The fact that you chose to ignore that and pretend I was only talking about white voters (in addition to your usual bullshit straw man arguments) means that you are either incapable of basic reading comprehension or are being deliberately dishonest. Which is it?

  163. 163
    Mnemosyne says:

    @NR:

    I notice that, once again, you ignored the massive voter suppression orchestrated by Republicans since 2008, along with the latest attempt by the Trump administration. Who’s being dishonest in their arguments, again?

  164. 164
    NR says:

    @Mnemosyne: I was talking about a poll. Are you arguing that people were suppressed from answering a poll?

  165. 165
    agorabum says:

    I actually get very tired of hearing about how anger against Democrats is “justified.” It isn’t really. Their big failing is that they didn’t win. Not that they pursued terrible policies when they had power. Every ‘righteously angry’ person always ends up just complaining that their preferred candidate or their pet policy doesn’t get enough traction.

    We’re all flawed humans. But can we just stop ritually punching ourselves in the face before we raise a criticism of the other side?

  166. 166
    Jeffro says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Saying that building Obamacare based on 2008’s reality is automatically “conservative” is a very odd thing to say.

    Um, ok. But I didn’t say Obamacare was built on 2008’s reality, nor did I say that it made the ACA automatically conservative. I said that it was based on some conservative ideas (i.e., market-based solutions) rather than being single payer. People are getting really defensive over some silly stuff – it’s almost like if something’s conservative in any way, we have to deny it, deny it, deny it. Seems rather Cleek’s-Law-ish to me and I thought we progressives were above that. Ah well.

  167. 167
    Mnemosyne says:

    @NR:

    Also, you probably should have checked the sample size of the poll before you decided to hang your remaining shreds of credibility on it:

    This Washington Post-ABC News poll was conducted by telephone April 17-20, 2017, among a random national sample of 1,004 adults, including landline and cell phone respondents. Results have a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points. Sampling, data collection and tabulation by Abt Associates of Cambridge, Mass. (emphasis mine)

    I can’t find the cross-tabs for the exact breakdown by race and gender, but if you only have (for example) 5 or 10 people of color who get polled out of your 1,009, that’s going to fuck your sample up big time.

  168. 168
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Jeffro:

    I said that it was based on some conservative ideas (i.e., market-based solutions) rather than being single payer.

    Yes, but it had to be built using market-based solutions because of the market that existed. It’s weird to me to automatically label something “liberal” or “conservative” simply based on whether not it’s market-based.

    Our health insurance system in 2008 was primarily for-profit, so a solution that was NOT market-based would have failed miserably. To call that recognition of reality a “conservative” solution is weird.

  169. 169
    Mnemosyne says:

    @NR:

    Considering that 1,009 people out of a country of 325 million were polled …

  170. 170
    Shana says:

    @randy khan: Someone else may have said this already, but Hubby’s take is that they knew to respond in about 5 minutes and then spent the next 4 hours and 55 minutes figuring out how snarky they could be in their response.

  171. 171
    NR says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Also, you probably should have checked the sample size of the poll before you decided to hang your remaining shreds of credibility on it:

    Now you’re just showing off your ignorance of statistics. A sample size of 1,000 will give a 3% margin of error with 95% confidence from a population of 300 million. It’s just math. Look it up.

  172. 172
    OGLiberal says:

    @Mnemosyne: Please don’t go after sample size. That’s what the wingers do when trying to explain the unpopularity of their positions and candidates. A sample size of 1,000 or more is adequate. The makeup of that 1,000 and the sampling error is more important to investigate (not saying the poll is wrong), not the overall size. Attacking size – and over 1,000 is pretty big and expensive, is like “Well, they never called me?”, which is kind of the default position of the wingers. Everybody hates politicians and political parties except the ones they vote for. More people think the GOP is out of touch. With those numbers, we should probably win more elections but we don’t because “I hate brown people and hippies” trumps “they are out of touch”. And more white people vote and more brown people have barriers to making it as easy for them as it is for white people to vote.

  173. 173
    NR says:

    @OGLiberal:

    More people think the GOP is out of touch. 

    Actually if you look at this poll, the two parties are nearly identical on that particular question.

  174. 174
    chopper says:

    @NR:

    then I guess the GOP must also be “doing it wrong”. wait, they have all three branches of government? oh shit, I guess whether or not randos think your party is “out of touch” is an absolutely meaningless metric when it comes to gaining political power.

    typical dumbass NR hottake.

  175. 175
    Jeffro says:

    @Mnemosyne: I dunno…maybe calling folks’ opinions “weird” and “odd” just because they don’t agree with your take is, well, “odd”.

  176. 176
    OGLiberal says:

    @OGLiberal: Sorry, the poll actually says that 5 percent more of Americans thinks the Dems are out of touch than the GOP. But that’s mostly because the GOP sheeples fall in fucking line like the authoritarian loving dickheads they are. Dems are more likely to admit that their party sucks. But when your party sucks 100 times less than the other party, you need to get out and vote for them, even if they suck but suck less, because the alternative is always worse and no fucking “oh, you poor soul, you didn’t get your pony” messaging should be needed. Get your folks elected because they are 100 times less worse than the alternative and then ask for your pony…because only people with political fucking power can get you the pony…when they don’t have it, all they can tell you every year is that next year is the year we’ll definitely get you your pony.

    Get them in office because they 100 times less worse than the GOP then yell at them for your ponies. Do that first. It’s not hard to figure out and you shouldn’t need to be convince that they are “in touch” to do that. You can’t stay home and not vote or vote for fucking Jill Stein because you didn’t get your pony because the people who can get you your pony don’t have the power to do that. Give them that power and then make them do that. How many times since 1980 have the Dems had the ability – the House, the Senate, the WH, SCOTUS, the States – to deliver the ponies. Give them the power then make them. If they fail, then form another fucking party that can actually win elections….round up all those Democratic Socialists and make the Democrats go the way of the Whigs.

    The GOP gets this. They fall in line. All the fucking time – they don’t even need to be convinced beyond – “vote for me and I’ll make sure brown people suffer and liberals feelings are hurt – I won’t give you anything to help your life but I will make the lives of those you hate more miserable”. Dems actually offer to help, and even if that help is only 50% of what you think is needed, too many on the Dem side have hissy fits and stay home or vote for idiot third party folks with no chance because what they’re going to get ain’t a magical pony.

    Here’s the messaging – “They will make your life and lives of the folks you say you care about much worse than we will – give us a fucking chance to prove it. If we fail, then stay home, form a third party, or live somewhere else.” It’s not hopey or dreamy but it’s reality.

    Note: This is a general rant – not directed at you, in particular, @Mnemosyne.

  177. 177
    NR says:

    @chopper: Or maybe it makes a difference, but not in the way you think it does?

    Anyway, the point wasn’t to argue that the out-of-touch metric is the end-all be-all, but rather to provide data that disproves the assertion that the only people who don’t like the Democratic party are white men who only want to keep the wimmins and the non-whites down.

  178. 178
    Mnemosyne says:

    @OGLiberal:

    Show me the cross-tabs, then. NR is claiming that 60 percent of non-white voters are dissatisfied with the Democratic Party. Usually that kind of outsized percentage shows up because they underpolled that group and then had to do too large of an adjustment.

  179. 179
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Jeffro:

    Wevs. The whole Obamacare was written by the Heritage Foundation thing is completely false. It’s more that, once you’re forced to go with market-based solutions, there’s a limited number of them available. There are superficial similarities, but when you actually read the Heritage Foundation’s plan, it’s obviously not the same at all.

    And, yes, I find liberals who cling to the notion that Obama took the Heritage Foundation’s plan and implemented it as Obamacare to be quite odd.

  180. 180
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @NR: Who gives a shit about a single poll? What does that prove? Get back to us when you start winning elections

  181. 181
    randy khan says:

    @Shana:

    . . . then spent the next 4 hours and 55 minutes figuring out how snarky they could be in their response.

    Could be.

  182. 182
    OGLiberal says:

    @Mnemosyne: I don’t have the cross tabs and don’t really care all that much about them. My point is that the sample size is fine and wingers always call polls false unless every person in the country is contacted, which isn’t really polling – it’s an election. (and even those, woefully – in this country, don’t include nearly enough people that they should) But I totally buy that more Dems thinks their party is out of touch than GOPers think their party is out of touch. Dems think that way because they have legitimate grievances with their party. GOPers don’t think that way because they are not the free thinking folks they imagine themselves to be – they just want to fall in line and do what their told, as long as the people they hate have it worse. My larger point is that, sadly, Dems need to be more like that. They don’t have to change their minds about their party being “out of touch”, they just have to get out and vote for their party because I’m sure all of those Dems – again, not saying the poll is correct – who say their party is “out of touch” believe that the GOP is “out of touch” 1000 times more. 100 < 1000….go and vote for those people and then make them do want you think they should do. If you don't vote for them, the other guys will have power and they will never do what you want them to do, won't care what you want them to do, and only rarely – like when they try to do something that everybody hates – will you have about a 5% chance or less to stop them from doing something you don't like. But you will never get them to do anything that you like…and keeping the people you may be able to convince to do something you like out of power because they didn't give you your pony when they were out of power is a fool's game.

    Obama had 2 fucking years, with a razor thin edge, to do what he wanted, and he did a lot. Dem voters returned that favor by ignoring state and off year elections and letting the GOP take almost full control. Again, here's the message, "Vote for me because those assholes are going to fuck shit up and I will fuck it up much less and might make things a bit better." Shouldn't need anything fancier than that – the GOP doesn't….they get in line. Dems need to do the same, but to get good stuff for everybody, not to make things worse for just some people.

  183. 183
    nasruddin says:

    @The Moar You Know: Is there a contagious form of dementia?

  184. 184
    NR says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Usually that kind of outsized percentage shows up because they underpolled that group and then had to do too large of an adjustment.

    Or, you know, because that’s what the people polled said. The percentage is only “outsized” compared to what you think it should be.

  185. 185
    NR says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    Get back to us when you start winning elections

    I could say the same thing to you, Skippy.

  186. 186
    J R in WV says:

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    Their main owner family member guy intends to found a museum that will prove the holy truth of the Holy Bible, using irrelevant clay tablets from 2000 years before the Bible was written, that probably track date wine and millet owed to the king in taxes.

    He bought stolen Iraqi artifacts on the stupid assumption that they would prove the Old Testament was written by Lord God, or at least dictated by him to scribes writing on wet clay in cuniform. Shipped them into the US in small lots, labeled “Clay Tile” Value $37.00.

    No ill intent there, right?!?!?!!!!

  187. 187
    sheila in nc says:

    @OGLiberal:

    Obama had 2 fucking years, with a razor thin edge,

    Not even that, because Franken had to wait for a recount to be seated, and then Ted Kennedy died and was replaced by Scott Brown. It really is absolutely amazing what was accomplished given the time constraints.
    Totally agree — we have to elect Dems first and give them a shot at actually making policy.

  188. 188
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @NR: Your side has made claims that they have a better way. The burden of proof falls on them to prove it. What better way then by winning elections? I know you’re really a lazy coward who’d much rather bitch on blogs then work for real change. I get it.

    Can’t create, so you just destroy.
    Come on let’s set someone’s dog on fire!

Comments are closed.