Bad news from the Supreme Court, via WaPo:
The Supreme Court agreed on Monday to allow a limited version of President Trump’s ban on travelers from six mostly Muslim countries to take effect, and will consider in the fall the president’s broad powers in immigration matters in a case that raised fundamental issues of national security and religious discrimination.
The court made an important exception: it said the ban “may not be enforced against foreign nationals who have a credible claim of a bona fide relationship with a person or entity in the United States.”
The court also said in the ruling that it would consider whether the case will be moot by the time it hears it; the ban is supposed to be a temporary one while the government reviews its vetting procedures.
The action means that the administration may impose a 90-day ban on travelers from Libya, Iran, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen and a 120-day ban on all refugees entering the United States, with the exceptions noted by the court.
Team Trump said the 90-day ban was necessary to allow the administration to put its “extreme vetting” policies in place. At this point, 156 days have elapsed since the shitgibbon was sworn in, so it makes no sense logically to impose the ban now.
But this was never about logic or sound security policy; it was about codifying anti-Muslim bigotry to please Trump and his xenophobic, anti-Muslim base. Mission accomplished.
The Supreme Court will also hear a public accommodation case in the fall. Again, WaPo:
The Supreme Court on Monday said it will consider next term whether a Denver baker unlawfully discriminated against a gay couple by refusing to sell them a wedding cake.
Lower courts had ruled that Jack Phillips, the owner of Masterpiece Cakeshop, had violated Colorado’s public accommodations law, which prohibits refusing service to customers based on factors such as race, sex, marital status or sexual orientation.
There are similar lawsuits from florists, calligraphers and others who say their religious beliefs won’t allow them to provide services for same-sex weddings. But they have found little success in the courts, which have ruled that public businesses must comply with state anti-discrimination laws.
I’m not a lawyer, but the fact that the Supreme Court will hear this case at all strikes me as ominous. It’s an opportunity for people who use religion to justify their bigotry to get cover of law to exercise their prejudice. Of course, in the best case scenario, gay folks’ full equality could be upheld, but why is it in question?
Interested to hear from our legal beagles on these issues.
David Anderson
Anthony Kennedy and his lens on dignity is the best shot in Colorado
Citizen Alan
I hope Kennedy realizes that if he steps down and is replaced by a Trump judge, everything he ever wrote about gay rights could be overturned with in his lifetime.
EBT
My assumption this will codify 2nd class status for us queers for at least 30 years.
D58826
SCOTUS as Independent Branch died today – and to the executions may they not RIP.
I’m sure that over the next few years SCOTUS will discover all manners of previously undetected constitutional rights for corporate America, like Hobby Lobby. While at the same time deciding that equal protection of the law does not apply to any human being not named Koch.
And a BIG middle finger salute to Susan Sarandon, Jill Stein and all of the other lefties who still think Trump is better than Hillary. May they rot in the same pit as the right wingers on the Roberts court. They deserve to go through eternity together.
Major Major Major Major
@David Anderson: what about the dignity of the poor bakers?
ETA: and the bakery, of course. As a corporate person it has the constitutional right to dignity too.
Betty Cracker
If I were a corporate-person, I’d convert to the Christian Science faith and thereby rid myself of all obligation to provide healthcare. Mary Baker Eddy FTW!
Chris
This.
Raven Onthill
The Roberts Court: working on being the worst since Taney.
rikyrah
What was the vote, BC?
Mike in DC
Gosh, if only they could figure out that vetting process. Maybe they’ll need a little extra time, like 3.5 to 7.5 years.
LAO
Offering a secondhand opinion — what I’m seeing (but have not read the order), today the Court issued an order re: same-sex partner’s right to be named on the birth certificate in Arkansas. The dissent penned by Gorsuch and joined by Alito and Thomas, suggests a very narrow view of Obergefell. The order and dissent can be found here, starting at page 18. This has watchers concerned about the Bakery case.
Amir Khalid
There’s one thing I don’t quite understand. It simply doesn’t make sense to me for the US not to let in people to whom it has granted refugee status. If you seek to enter the US as a refugee, doesn’t that mean you’ve already applied, passed the vetting, and been officially granted that status? Or does the ban apply to people who want to apply for refugee status?
Ryan
“I’m not a lawyer, but the fact that the Supreme Court will hear this case at all strikes me as ominous.”
Luckily, precedent is on the other side, and we all know how much conservative jurists respect precedent.
Big Ole Hound
I cannot believe that SCOTUS has stooped so low that it decides to hear a case about wedding cakes. This has been decided by many lower courts and they should have refused to consider it no matter what the consequences.
sherparick
Justice Goruch is big on “religious liberty” as sword for justifying discrimination against the LBTQ, women not trying to get pregnant every time they have sex, and single women in general.
Ryan
@Mike in DC: How many weeks did it take for them to figure out how to turn the lights on?
AliceBlue
God, it’s only been 156 days?
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@AliceBlue:
Going back a year in time for every day of this administration. They’re on course to repeal the Enlightenment before the first term is up.
The Truffle
At this point, I imagine a lot of talk of secession will come about. It’s clear there are two incompatible visions of America now. And I really think that reconciliation is out of reach. Sadly, people just don’t want that anymore.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
it’s all basically gossip at this point, but..
it’s a short clip, but he’s speculating that Kennedy may have (convinced himself to do what he wants to do anyway) decided to postpone retirement because trump makes everything so toxic
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
For all the idiots that wanted rapid change and not Hillary’s “incrementalism” hope your fucking happy.
Kylroy
@The Truffle: Yep. I used to hope the second American Civil War wouldn’t happen in my lifetime. That’s looking less and less likely every day.
Aleta
Me too, I feel their agreeing to hear it is a sign of political pressure outweighing impartiality. And maybe a slight sign of intended tilt toward the originalist bs.
sherparick
And yes, “but her Emails!! and the Iraq vote in 2002!! and Debbier Wasserman-Schultz and the DNC fixed the primaries by letting all those Black people vote in the Primaries!!. (Bernie had a slight (49%-48%) edge in the vote of White Democrats. Hillary had 3 million more Black voters for her in the primaries then Bernie).
Justice Gorsuch, as I stated above, is all for using “religious liberty” to impose Evangelical Christianity and its sexual code of conduct on the rest of the country. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/gorsuchs-selective-view-of-religious-freedom/520104/
The Truffle
@Kylroy: I would prefer a peaceful secession. A relatively civil parting of ways would work best for everyone and I think everyone would be happier.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Two important structures undergird stable, functional societies.
Laws may exist, but unwritten norms which guarantee a minimum level of acceptance, adherence and enforcement are a necessary companion (my favorite example is the set of guarantees for expression and conscience/religion in the Constitution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics – lots of freedom, but no norms of acceptance or adherence).
Conservatives are breaking down all of those critical norms for cynical purposes, and once those norms are broken, the only things left are statutes which may or may not be enforced (depending on the whims of those wielding state authority), and the security forces who will be wielding force on a shifting set of commands from the powers in control of the state.
We are in extraordinary danger right now, and Masha Gessen’s advice and predictions have proven correct.
Betty Cracker
@rikyrah: Don’t know — the article (which is being updated as details come out) says it’s an unsigned opinion but that Thomas, Alito and the recipient of stolen goods Gorsuch wanted to allow the ban in total.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@sherparick: and don’t forget how everyone was clamoring for more primary debates. Every Democrat I know, when the primary debate schedule was announced was saying “Six? My goodness, we need at least ten!” People really cared about that.
D58826
@LAO:
I suspect that famous camel would have an easier time getting thru that head of a pin then the window that these guys will leave open for Obergell.
With the famous disclaimer of not a lawyer but the MO of the Roberts court seems to be leave the original decision standing, so as to avoid a public outcry, but establish so many procedural rules that the law/constitutional right is worthless.
D58826
@Betty Cracker:
about as surprising as the apple falling toward the ground.
Aleta
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: good comment
Peale
I guess the question is whether the conservative judges plan to just overturn gay marriage as wrongly decided in one fell swoop or chip away at it bit by bit. I would rather get an affirmation that yes, town clerks and judges must marry us and file our paperwork if we ask them to first before tackling these kinds of “wedding day” issues that are big in theory, but in practice seem to be about the question whether the right to marry is also the right to have a wedding.
As for the immigration ruling, what parts were allowed to stand? The one that we need to watch out for I think the most is the effect of the ban that caused people with permanent visas to lose them if they were overseas, legally, and no matter where they were. if the President has the power to willy nilly cancel visas that were already issued for national security reasons, what’s to stop them from cancelling them for people who are resident in this country and mass deporting legal immigrants? There’s not much the courts can do about people in the visa application pipeline overseas, and probably not much that can be done for people who had tourist visas who had not yet left. I’m just wondering what was allowed to stand.
Gin & Tonic
I admit I have not run a small business, but I can’t imagine how I’d help my earning potential as a baker or florist by putting a sign in my window saying “no queers allowed.”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Vlad’s Man on the Court, the Putin Justice
D58826
@sherparick:
Well they are the only true Christians after all. Jerry Falwell (SR and JR) and the Graham family keep telling us that. WE just don’t want to listen so just like a reluctant but loving parent has to put his child in time out for their own good we are being guided in the path of righteousness. (gag, upchuck, gag some more)
Betty Cracker
@Kylroy @The Truffle: I don’t see how that’s supposed to work, given that the opposing sides are no longer as concentrated in a specific geographical area. If the “conservatives” were willing to put their money where their mouth is, I suppose states and/or municipalities could agree to significantly weakened federal oversight so they could operate like mini-states. But the “conservative” states are the chief beneficiaries of federal redistribution, so they’d never agree to that. The only acceptable solution is the defeat of the troglodytes, IMO.
eric
@Betty Cracker: I say Democrats propose a law that says no State that is a net taker of other people’s tax dollars can get or do __________.
rikyrah
@Peale:
I would like the answers to these questions too.
schrodingers_cat
Ban will not apply to refugees, student visa holders, gc holders, work visa holders from the 6 countries. It is not a win for the administration.
I trust Greg Siskind on immigration matters more than random MSM bots on the web. He has been blogging and now tweeting about them for over 10 years. He is an immigration attorney.
https://twitter.com/gsiskind
The Moar You Know
Lotta white gay folks in my part of the world thought that Obama did all the heavy lifting, their work was done, and they were free go to and let their Republican freak flag fly.
They refused to see the awful truth, that with the GOP, nobody is safe. That white privilege is a hell of a drug, makes you feel untouchable.
Brachiator
@Citizen Alan:
Sorry, you cannot put any of this on Kennedy’s shoulders. It’s unfortunate, for sure, but the fault lies with the fools who voted for Jill Stein. The election was no time for purity. And yes, these votes did not make a critical difference in every state, but still…
Lalophobia
My most treasured and unlikely fantasy is that things turn out so badly for Trump, Pence, and various members of the Republican party that everything he ever did becomes toxic waste, including Gorsuch. And that ol’ Neil could then be pressured to step the hell down lest he go down in history as the tool of a Russian traitor.
After all, how can we trust someone who was appointed by an honest-to-goodness traitor to our country?
Gex
@Gin & Tonic: Ah that’s the thing. Whenever a Dem attaches a “you must put a sign up saying you refuse to serve LGBT people” amendment, a religious liberty bill fails in a state house. They want the right, but they don’t want to have to make it clear to straight allies that they are bigot, lest they lose business. It is interesting how they need to loudly and publicly declare their beliefs in my face, but are more than happy to hide those beliefs if it might hurt their bottom line.
Aleta
@D58826: They see a crisis-level threat in the ‘decline of Christianity’ in the country. Since they believe satan is behind it, this is a war and they’re enlisted in god’s army. (Not sarcasm, I have one as a relative and her smart, loving mind is now impermeable.)
Elmo
The threat to Obergefell is why I will stay in Maryland and keep my 90-minute commute, instead of moving to Virginia and risking my marital status. My boss keeps asking “Why Maryland, though? Why not move closer?” and I keep reminding him, “Because marriage.” He’s a conservative Republican – no, seriously he is – and he can’t get his head around the idea that anyone would vote to eliminate marriage rights. He thinks I’m being alarmist and paranoid.
D58826
@Lalophobia: HMMM Some weed your smoking
Major Major Major Major
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: this is why Trump is more dangerous than Pence right here. ETA: He’s rapidly accelerating this erosion, from which we might not recover. Pence would do it at ‘merely’ W. Bushian, possibly Reaganesque, rates.
@schrodingers_cat: thanks SC!
Louise B.
There is a good summary at . The ban was not upheld, but the injunction against its enforcement was lifted, except as to a few categories of people.
Stan
@D58826:
Died in 2000 – see Bush v Gore.
Or maybe it was Dredd Scott.
SiubhanDuinne
@Brachiator:
@D58826:
NPR has a program called Here and Now, and when today’s program began about 25 minutes ago, they teased an upcoming segment: an interview with “a Jill Stein voter who doesn’t regret her decision.” In the interests of keeping my radio intact and my blood pressure within normal tolerances, I do believe I’ll skip that part.
Aleta
@The Moar You Know: Lots of white people believed that the SC would never undo national abortion rights. I believe it may happen, the decision given over to states, in the next few years.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Aleta:
Christianity needs to go the way of Ba’al worship. In the hands of fundamentalists, it is an inherently contradictory, power-coddling apocalyptic death cult.
cmorenc
@Citizen Alan:
One could hope that facts on the ground have shifted so radically since Lawrence v Texas (criminalization of private i.e. gay sexual conduct unconstitutional) and Obergefell v Hodges (unconstitutional not to extend marriage rights to gays) – that even a hard-right ideological majority on SCOTUS would find it forbidding to launch any frontal assault to outright reverse these landmarks – and same with Griswold and contraception. Instead, Hobby Lobby points the more likely way in that under the banner of “religious liberty” they will enable right-wing legislatures and right-wing public officials to effectively fence these rights into a much smaller reservation where they may be effectively exercised, as well as giving legislatures the tools to build higher and stronger fences to confine these things. How much good is a “right” for gays to get married if the only clerk in the court office that issues marriage licenses who is willing to do so for gay couples only works every other Tuesday between 1pm and 4pm?
Brachiator
@EBT:
2nd class status? You’re an optimist.
More seriously. I don’t know. The country seems to have moved definitely toward more acceptance. Some issues, such as federal recognition of same sex marriage, seems to be settled law. But I dread seeing how far the Republicans will push anti-gay bigotry under the guise of “protecting religious liberty.”
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Major Major Major Major:
Pence would be a mere caretaker, incredibly weakened from the very beginning. He wouldn’t have the personal ability to upend any more norms.
Major Major Major Major
@SiubhanDuinne: can we please remember that the A#1 to-blame group is the people who voted for Trump?
Stein voters are #2 of course.
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: he would be a caretaker of the long-term conservative erosion-of-norms-and-principle project, yes.
D58826
@Aleta: https://twitter.com/C_Stroop has a long running tweet stream that attempts to ‘expl;aion’ the mind of the evangelical. His bio says he is a recovering evangelical.
Stan
@Gin & Tonic:
Well, it tells the assholes where to shop. Maybe an economist can tell us who has more money – queers or assholes.
evodevo
@D58826: Unfortunately, you have their mindset outlined perfectly. “My religion is fine and deserves all the privilege govt. can offer, but yours is not.”
Quit now
But. But. But. Bernie could have won!!!
MJS
@Gin & Tonic: @Gex: In a not insignificant part of this country, “I won’t serve gays” may actually serve ti increase sales.
Stan
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Baal worship was better, because those folks didn’t imagine that they had a monopoly on Truth. The enemy is monotheistic religion.
Tenar Arha
@eric: Are you really being serious? (I honestly can’t tell if this is a tongue in cheek joke or not). Because what happens to Texas then, especially since it is going bluer?
Citizen Alan
@Brachiator:
I agree completely about Stein and her cultists. But the reason that I’m, as you say, putting this on Kennedy is that he was the deciding vote in a lot of 5-4 cases they can easily be overturned if he’s replaced by someone more conservative than himself. His legacy is Oberfell and Lawrence V Texas, and that Legacy is gone if he’s replaced by someone like Gorsuch. Just as nearly every important legal principle associated with Sandra Day O’Connor got tossed in the trash pile when she stepped down in favor of Alito.
Major Major Major Major
@Stan: yeah, at least when you’re worshiping the king of hell you know you’re worshiping the king of hell.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@SiubhanDuinne:
I have hoarded a special measure of spite for that great mediocrity, Senator Bernie(spit) Fucking Sanders(spit) who built his movement on the rhetorical contortions of right wing framing and Russian lies.
I despise that hateful, incompetent old fuck with every fiber of my being.
Brachiator
Tangentially related topic:
Meanwhile across the Atlantic, BREXIT xenophobia is based in part on economics.
From the Guardian:
Aleta
@SiubhanDuinne: I wish the news would play a clip of Hilary speaking on the relevant issue when they cover R proposals or interview voters. Remind us that the issues are what matters.
Irony Abounds
Hate to be a pessimist but huge swaths of social progress that has been made the last 50+ years will be washed away. There will likely be some states where protections are maintained, but Republicans control everything, and most importantly, the Supreme Court and they will use that power over the next 4 years to tear down absolutely as much as possible. And then, when there is some electoral backlash, they will retain enough power to fight tooth and nail to keep straight white males in a dominant position. Overly pessimistic? Perhaps, but did anyone predict the Civil Rights Act would be under assault the way it is now? Or women’s reproductive rights on the precipice of being lost?
kindness
If Anthony Kennedy retires we are going to be so fucked as a nation. I swear to god all those people who claimed Hillary was the same as Trump and wrote in Bernie (or worse, voted for Jill Stein) and gave us this, because they did exactly that, should be begging us to accept their apologies. They won’t of course because in their eyes I’m the enemy (just the same as some Trump supporter I guess).
Citizen Alan
@Major Major Major Major:
Personally, I no longer see a distinction. Everyone who did not vote for Hillary Clinton is equally culpable in my opinion.
The Moar You Know
@Aleta: That’s coming for certain. And it won’t be “given over to states”, they’re going to find a way to reverse Roe the entire thing and outlaw it entirely.
Sorry for all of those who get the vapors over negative posts, but you need to realize this: The Dildo of Consequences does not arrive lubed, as a friend of mine used to say. And we are all going to get fucked with it good and hard. Every right and liberty you have ever treasured is fair game for these people.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Stan:
Anecdotally, gay men have a lot more money – the economic power of men, and a longer time unencumbered by the financial burden of children. This applies in both red and blue spaces.
Lesbians generally aren’t nearly as financially secure in red spaces. They are frequently single mothers, and putting two single moms together in one house doesn’t really improve their circumstances.
SatanicPanic
@Irony Abounds:
Uh, anyone without air between their ears. These people weren’t going to just give up and go away. They’re electorally irrelevant in my state and have been for at least a decade, they still haven’t gone away. They never will. We just have to keep defeating them.
SatanicPanic
Guys, people in this country used to be able to own people. This sucks, and we’re likely to see a lot more crap than not over the next few years, but let’s not give up just yet. People have dealt with worse before.
Aleta
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: ‘inherently contradictory, power-coddling apocalyptic death cult’
exactly right. They fetishize control without consent.
Major Major Major Major
@Citizen Alan: there’s a huge difference ethically between choosing to vote and voting for Trump; choosing to vote and voting for not-Hillary; not choosing to vote; and being unable to vote. At least in my interpretation of this particular trolley problem.
Chris Fisher
Now, come on, Jesus was very clear about making cakes for gay weddings in that he said absolutely nothing about it.
germy
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Weaver (and Jane) both say he’ll be “a factor” in the 2020 race.
And that’s as far as I got in the article.
Major Major Major Major
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Anecdotes aren’t data.
Stan
@SatanicPanic:
Oh OK, I feel better now. We’re not quite at the point of reinstituting slavery.
The Moar You Know
@SatanicPanic: Truth. I’ve had people ask me “when can we stop fighting?” And the answer – and it’s not the one they want to hear – is “never”. Birth control. Gay rights. Voting rights for women. Citizenship status for non-whites. It’s all still on the table and will be for the rest of my life.
@Stan: Serious question: why do you think that? Do you think this current crowd of sadistic psychopaths currently in charge of our governance wouldn’t do it?
I am willing to bet that legislation rescinding citizenship for non-whites will hit the House within the next three years. It will fail…the first time.
Chris Fisher
There’s no reason to assume that a GOP Congress wouldn’t outlaw it entirely. They can afford to buy their mistresses a plane ticket to Canada or Mexico, after all.
schrodingers_cat
@SatanicPanic: No let’s go along with the MSM narrative that so eagerly wants to hand T and Rs a win.
/end snark.
Brachiator
@Citizen Alan:
O’Connor is not responsible in any way for Alito. She didn’t pick him. She didn’t step down in favor of Alito.
Everybody and his momma knew that Trump would get at least one Supreme Court pick if he were elected. He may get at least 3 picks. I find this exasperating, infuriating, maddening. Freaking sad. But the decision was up to the people who voted for president. And not just the Supreme Court, it impacts the entire federal judiciary.
I don’t know. Maybe some people secretly yearn for tyranny.
Stan
@Major Major Major Major: Right, the missing part of this equation is “are there more assholes or queers?” and I am afraid of the answer.
D58826
@Stan:
Whither Christianity in general should go the way o fBa’al is an interesting debate but don’t confuse fundamentalism/evangelicalism as practiced in the US with the broader world of Christianity. Much, if not all, of the theology has been developed since the 1820’s. Most if not all of the culture war issues aren’t even mentioned in the Bible. For a group of people who believe in the totally true and inerrant word of God in the Bible they manage to do a lot of cutting and pasting to suit their very modern political views. The idea that the story of Genesis is a metaphor has very ancient roots in Christianity. The Vatican may have come late to Darwin but they never bought into the Creationism story of the fundamentalists in the US.
Citizen Alan
@Brachiator:
But she did step down while Bush was in office. It may not have been foreseeable to her that bush would replace her with someone for more conservative who would have absolutely no respect for the opinions in which she was the deciding vote. But Kennedy has her example to observe. He should expect that if he retires under shitgibbon he will be replaced by someone who is aggressively anti-gay rights. If he cares at all about his legacy he will stay on the court as long as possible.
Fair Economist
@Brachiator: O’Connor knew she was going to get a hard-line conservative replacement. Alito was actually the most expected candidate. I believe she now wishes she hadn’t retired, although she was under heavy personal pressure from dealing with her husband, who had advanced Alzheimer’s.
The Truffle
@eric I am all for states like NY and CA being able to pass progressive laws. I have read op ed columnists who have said that they can and should use states’ rights to their advantage. See, for example:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/12/04/democrats-can-look-forward-to-the-coming-republican-era-being-a-disaster-for-republican-voters/
Major Major Major Major
@The Moar You Know:
Define ‘hit the House’ and I’ll probably take that bet.
@Stan:
Sadly, we both know the answer already. Do we really think assholes are <10% of the population?
Fair Economist
@D58826:
Probably the biggest aspect of current Christian “theology” is the “abortion is killing” nonsense, which was completely made up in the ’70s. The strict literal interpretation of the Bible indicates life begins at birth, and the traditional folk interpretation is that it starts at quickening (around the 4th month). Theological schools in most conservative denominations were aggressively purged to create an anti-abortion movement to be used for conservative ends.
The Catholic proscription, also of fairly recent provenance, is based on the peculiar finesse that we don’t actually know when ensoulment occurs, so they use that as an excuse to ban all abortion, but they can’t call it murder for the same reason.
SatanicPanic
@Stan: I’m just saying we need some perspective. There are parts of the country where people have rights they literally never had before. If SCOTUS thinks it’s banning gay marriage or abortion in California they’re out of their minds.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Something instructive about the Trump electorate – they have a fetish about “personal responsibility” of the poor, all to the detriment of themselves.
Last week, I attended my bar convention, and one of the program topics was a great presentation on the opiate crisis here in Kentucky.
A great deal of the presentation covered the difficulties in getting rural prosecutors and judges to adopt a model that emphasizes empathy and treatment over penal methods. Outside metro Louisville, some of the Nothern KY suburbs of Cincinnati and Lexington, efforts are scant and treatment options woefully inadequate. Of special note, needle exchanges serve as the first point of contact for encouragement to get clean (as the director of the KY Dept of Behavioral Health said: “a lot of our communities are one dirty needle from a major HIV or Hep C outbreak”).
Anyway, I was relating the thing about the needle exchange to my RWNJ mom who was decrying supplying clean needles over the personal responsibility issues, even as I talked about life altering consequences to their sexual partners, random people in the community and unborn children.
SatanicPanic
@The Moar You Know: Yup. Never. We don’t even really get vacations, just like, long weekends. It’s a slog and it sucks, but the alternative is worse.
Major Major Major Major
@SatanicPanic: Marriage necessarily has a considerable interstate component. Scrapping it federally would be devastating even for people in liberal states.
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Pence is not exactly enamored with needle exchanges. He would be awful for IV drug users. One of the ways he would be worse than Trump.
trollhattan
@Major Major Major Major:
Certainly has federal income tax considerations, for $tarters.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@SiubhanDuinne:
Stein voters, like hardcore Bernie Bros (and Sis’s), desperately want to imagine themselves in possession of super duper special specialness! They have more integrity, insight, and intelligence. They are true to their amazing, sublime principles. Even if that means making life demonstrably worse for millions.
Barbara
The reality is that a functional and competent executive branch could have put a temporary hold on immigrants from certain countries while it devised a vetting process that upped the level of review. That would not be this executive branch. However, they got the benefit of the doubt from the Supreme Court, which shouldn’t be the case when the executive seems to be proceeding from gross religious bias. In addition, the way that the Supreme Court phrased its order suggests to me that it might be considering a “zone of interest” resolution. The reality is that people without a current nexus to any person in the U.S. would have a hard time gaining standing to sue the executive branch over immigration rules.
Regarding the case of the discriminatory baker — People shouldn’t be able to refuse to provide a product or to serve certain classes in a way that discriminates against customers with a protected status. On the other hand, if I were a baker I wouldn’t want to be forced to decorate cakes for neo-Nazis complete with offensive messages that I had to write out on their behalf. But I would have no problem selling a cake to anyone who wanted one and affixing a cake topper supplied by them. I don’t know which scenario we are closer to here. I am trying to turn this inside out and think about it from the other end of the spectrum because these sorts of things are going to be applied neutrally. However, I think that not discriminating against classes of people is the real issue that has to be sorted — neo-Nazis are not a protected class. Here, the issue of selective purity might allow for some greater insight: If I think Halloween is a pagan holiday that abases Christian culture but I am nonetheless quite calm about writing out “Happy Halloween” on a cake, that suggests that the baker is really more concerned about who the customer is rather than what they are requesting in the way of a service.
r€nato
@The Truffle: they would not be happy with a peaceful secession. Maybe at first, but within 10 years the goalposts would be moved. Remember that the pro-slavery leaders of the eventual CSA states believed that if slavery was not advancing, it was retreating. They demanded all new territories and states be pro-slavery states. Their grievances about slavery being prohibited in Kansas did as much as anything to precipitate secession.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Major Major Major Major:
I’m speaking solely of my observations here, in my placid blue city in the middle of a festering, flaming red pustule. My observations are limited to men and women who seek out my legal services in rectifying their family court issues – and the guys ALWAYS have a lot more in terms of incomes and assets, while the women struggle.
SatanicPanic
@Major Major Major Major: It would be. I’m just saying we’re not going to roll over for these people, and that having a few free states in the union is better than our previous situation of having none.
mai naem mobile
@D58826: oh,no you’re not right, they’ll become an independent branch as soon as a Dem becomes POTUS.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
I’m stupefied that our lives and lives are determined by people who believe in an angry but loving old man in the sky.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@West of the Rockies (been a while):
“My vote must be earned!!!!1!1!1!!!!”
/s
Mnemosyne
@Stan:
You might want to talk to some of the folks currently being oppressed by Hindu fundamentalists before you decide it’s monotheism that’s the problem.
Fundamentalism is the problem.
Major Major Major Major
@trollhattan: Medical power of attorney is a much bigger issue.
japa21
@Mnemosyne: Very true. I hate it when all believers are thrown into the same category as the fundamentalists. BTW, their are plenty of agnostics and atheists that are just as intolerant as some of the fundamentalists.
The Thin Black Duke
@Mnemosyne: As the great Terry Prachett observed, evil is what happens “when you turn people into things”.
Immanentize
I have not read the entire thread yet, but I did search to see if this was covered and I don’t think it was —
There are three rules that guide the vote counts in the Supreme Court — The rule of 5, the rule of 4, and the rule of 3:
1) The rule of 5 is the one people know the most about — it takes 5 votes (a majority) in the 9 person court to decide an issue — This includes overturning rulings of lower courts like granting stays and staying imposition of lower court orders (like execution dates). Simple — majority of court must vote to overturn a lower court order OR decide an issue.
2) The rule of 4 relates to grants of certiorari (cert) — the Court operates on some minority rules and this is the most important one — It only takes 4 Justices to vote for certiorari — or to hear a case. So, a minority of Justices can force the whole court to fully consider an issue. Of course so much behind the scenes stuff is involved in when to grant cert or when not to.
3) The rule of 3 is almost never heard of — but in my world is critical. If the Court has decided to grant certiorari on an issue and another case has the same issue, then it only takes three votes to hold the similar case until the outcome of the primary case.
Now I have a fascinating story to tell about these rules, but I will keep it short and sweet. I am the only person ever who had certiorari granted in a case (4 votes) but the Court refused to issue a stay of execution (5 votes). So, yes they granted cert, but they executed my client, James Smith, the same night….
But, forget that piece of infamy and let’s look at the current Court scene. If Kennedy has indeed already decided to retire, then he is probably not voting on cert. grants for nest year — although he would certainly vote on other matters like stays, etc. So, who are the four? Well, it could be either side — Roberts, Alito, Thomas, and the Pretender; or there might be some knowledge inside the hallowed halls that we do not have — So it is possible that the liberals voted for cert either A) Knowing Kennedy is staying another year or B) believing after the most recent case that Roberts will side with them on the cake case.
All of this is just guessing until we see what happens to the Court make up.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@D58826:
I grew up Catholic. Private school, altar boy, uniforms, taught by nuns in habits. At one of the last services I attended, the priest read a passage from the New Testament, paused, then said, “Well, that’s what the Bible says, but, of course, we don’t really know since man wrote it and may have got it wrong.”
I don’t believe a lot of priests would say (or believe) such a thing, but I was rather impressed.
And now, yes, I know that the church has also caused great suffering and damage.
LongHairedWeirdo
Per my understanding, while a refusal to hear a case is considered an explicit “we have no opinion on this, at all, we just can only fit so many cases into our docket”, hearing a case like the “why can’t I discriminate against gay folks?” that’s consistently stopped by lower courts has no reason to be heard by the courts, unless they explicitly want to affirm or deny the lower courts’ decisions. The only neutral time for the court to review a case is (again, per my lay understanding) is when there’s a circuit split – when two circuit courts have ruled differently, and a ruling needs to be made uniform through the nation.
So: per my informed-by-lawyers-but-untrained opinion, this *is* ominous. They likely want to expand discrimination.
SinceOnceIF Trump’s Presidency is tainted by treason, it should be considered appropriate to undo things like his court changes.Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Major Major Major Major:
And taxation and health insurance benefits and insurable interests for life insurance…
Mnemosyne
@West of the Rockies (been a while):
FWIW, that’s always been the position of Catholicism — the Bible was written by falliable men, so you need a priest to properly interpret it for you. That was part of the break with the Protestants, who thought that people should be allowed to read and interpret the Bible for themselves.
Biblical inerrancy is a Protestant heresy, as far as I can tell.
Raven Onthill
@Gin & Tonic: What you do is put up a coded symbol, a cross or a fish maybe, and then the haters know they’ve found one of their own.
Lalophobia
@D58826:
Reading comprehension is not only fun, it’s useful.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@West of the Rockies (been a while): @Mnemosyne: I have a lot of problems with Bill Maher, and had a few with his “Religulous” move, but I did love the chat with the Jesuit priest at the Vaticanwho was just kind of rolling his eyes at the notion that the Bible was to be taken literally.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Immanentize:
And there you have described, in two short sentences, the reason why I never went the “heavy duty criminal practice” route. I don’t have the stomach for it.
schrodingers_cat
@Mnemosyne: Hinduism doesn’t have one book or one leader, it is much more amorphous than either Islam or Christianity. There is no one true way to salvation, hence you will find many devout Hindus praying in dargahs or going to church, along with doing their daily pooja. The current ruling party that has wrapped itself in the saffron flag drew most of its inspiration from the nationalist and fascist movements of the early 20th and the late 19th century Europe. In the Indian context they are playing with fire. I think with their beef ban, they have overreached.
ETA: My extremely religious MIL wants nothing to do with the BJP-RSS charlatans for example.
The Dudeist
@Gin & Tonic: If they decide to head this direction, can this apply to me deciding to not hire somebody on the basis of their political beliefs? I mean if religion gets to decide something as dumb as baking a cake for a gay couple, extreme partisan conservatives offend me too, so can I decide to fire or not hire solely on the basis of MY beliefs? This opens the door to a troubling trend.
Brachiator
@The Moar You Know:
Great metaphor!
True, I guess. The battle never stops. But there does seem to be a tilt in the direction of justice and understanding, in the long run (even though Trump may represent a major, disastrous backslide).
Patricia Kayden
@D58826:
That is so mindboggling to read. And infuriating as hell. Could anyone actually see what is going on and still be okay with Trump’s win and call themselves liberal or progressive? Not from where I stand. Sigh.
Major Major Major Major
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: All big issues, but none with the literal life-or-death immediacy of what happens in a hospital during an emergency, which incidentally also cuts across all income levels.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@D58826: I wonder how much money Susan, Jill, to say nothing of Cornel, Mike and even Wilmer and Jane their self-sainted-selves, have invested in the terrible awful corrupt entity known as “Wall Street”
GregB
The far right will now proceed to legislate from the bench for the next 30 years.
Immanentize
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: My Man, Justice Brennan:
Hamilton v. Texas
Brachiator
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I used to be surprised at the number of ministers who attended schools of theology where they dove deep into the the metaphorical aspects of the Bible, only to pretend that none of this interpretation existed once they got their own ministries.
@Mnemosyne:
Protestants are weird, though. They insist that some interpretations are more valid than others. They also tend to deny any potential problems of translation. They believe that “God” speaks directly to man through the Bible and they hand wave away any controversies over the meaning of the Biblical text (or even disputes over which books belong in the biblical canon).
Major Major Major Major
@Brachiator: Some protestants. Hard to speak monolithically of such a schism-happy group.
trollhattan
@Major Major Major Major:
Federal?
The Truffle
@r€nato: Well, everyone can agree that this country is being pushed to the breaking point. It’s just weird to hear wingnuts like Thiessen and Erickson say that the shooting of Scalise is proof that the Left is totally intolerant while ignoring right wing violence. But if they really think, as Thiessen said, that the country is headed for divorce court then…I’m reminded of the legend of Bre’r Rabbit: “Please don’t throw me in the briar patch!”
@Brachiator: You’re probably correct in this case, and I keep reminding myself that this too shall pass and 2018 is around the corner, along with lots of lovely governor and state and local races. Overall? I wonder if this country can really hold together after all.
Major Major Major Major
@trollhattan: Before Obergefell it would happen that blood relatives, during emergencies while out-of-state somewhere without gay marriage, would claim that they had the right to make medical decisions, not the spouse.
@The Truffle:
Not weird at all if you’ve read much of what they’ve written.
Fred Fnord
@Brachiator: Y’know what? As someone who never even considered voting for Stein, you’re a broken record playing a novelty song. The problem in the last election was persuadable people who voted for Trump. Period.
There were 100 reasons that Clinton lost, and if your sort of Democrats can’t accept that Stein and Stein-alikes (and before her Nader and Nader-alikes) were just one, and Bernie bros were just one, and Bernie daring to actually believe that he could actually challenge The Clinton and win was only one, then you will never even bother to start THINKING about the other 97.
Major Major Major Major
@Fred Fnord:
Ah yes, since we all thought it was supposed to be a coronation, right? That horrible entitled Hillary lady just thought it was her turn!
Mnemosyne
@Fred Fnord:
If people who claim to be on the left couldn’t be arsed to vote to prevent white supremacist Trump from becoming president then, yes, they’re part of the problem.
Hillary didn’t deserve their votes. Our fellow citizens deserved their votes, and they were too selfish and short-sighted to do their civic duty. They believed the right-wing hype that their vote didn’t matter.
The Truffle
@Major Major Major Major: Thiessen got dragged in the comments of his WaPo article. Which is great. Also great: righties getting the vapors when anyone on the left says the GOP wants to kill people.
Major Major Major Major
@The Truffle: I figure I’ll stop saying they want to kill people when they stop doing things that kill people.
trollhattan
@Major Major Major Major:
I could foresee that happening again. My point about federal taxation is if SSM were thrown out federally it would impact everyone regardless of state of residence. Also Social Security benefits.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Fred Fnord:
I’m good with that observation. As long as Steinistas acknowledge they did contribute to the Trump ascendancy.
Hillary lost because of, in no particular order, voter suppression, Russian intervention, lazy-ass non-voters who wanted her to win but couldn’t be arsed to actually, you know, vote, media misdirection (emails!)….
I suspect others would add to the list.
Brachiator
@Citizen Alan:
He’s a freaking human being. He can’t guarantee that he could outlast two terms of a Trump presidency.
@Fair Economist:
I cannot imagine a sane universe in which O’Connor would put the political BS of the Supreme Court above the needs of her family and her husband.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Yes, those are reasons. Some bigger and more damaging in the long run than others. Would you count as a separate reason that Wilmer’s demented self-righteousness led him to not only challenge “The Clinton”, but like the equally demented Nader before him, chose to not just to run for president but very specifically against the Democratic nominee?
I remember when one of the things we were supposed admire with wide-eyed wonder against His Blessedness is that he had never run a negative ad..
trollhattan
@West of the Rockies (been a while):
Could, but I’m already depressed so screw it. And screw Trump with a…[pondering something from a large animal veterinarian’s surgical kit].
The Moar You Know
@The Truffle: There is no right wing violence, nor violence committed by Christians. At least if you ask them.
Self-serving, of course. If you ask my parents about their divorce they’ll tell you it was very amiable with no problems. People need to lie to themselves.
Brachiator
@Fred Fnord:
Uh, no.
Guess what, sunshine. I’ve been pretty vocal here about the various reasons that Clinton lost, and ultimately I think that she is responsible for her failures. But I also recognize that the Trump phenomena was one singular sensation that would have rolled over almost any candidate.
This does not change the reality that Trump was and is spectacularly unqualified to be president, and that every person who claims to be any variety of liberal or progressive should have voted for Clinton, not as the lesser of two evils, but as the only rational choice. Hell, this applies to most conservatives as well, who foolishly believe that Trump will deliver their heart’s desire.
Also, when you come down to it, Stein and Nader are fools and will always be fools. Ultimately, I don’t expect them to come to their senses, but wanted to moderate the burning hatred I feel for them. Add an asshole like Cornell West to this group of chumps as well.
Chyron HR
@Fred Fnord:
When you people spent every day from January 1, 2016 to November 8 demanding “BERNIE OR BUST”, what exactly did you imagine “bust” would entail?
The Moar You Know
@Brachiator: We are talking the same Sandra Day O’Connor who insisted that the Supreme Court intervene in Florida’s recount, to make sure Bush got into office, right? That one? Just want to make sure we’re talking about the same person.
Don’t pretend she has morals or decency. She has neither.
Tenar Arha
@Brachiator:
I don’t really believe this anymore. Not because I don’t wish it to be true, but because I’ve read too much post Civil War history. We’re really in danger from this Court, and this Government. I won’t put a silver lining on it. In 1877, I suspect there were lots of Radical Republicans who thought it was just temporary, that things were on a path to getting better too. While at the same time, the terrorizing of black voters began again in the South, and almost 100 years discrimination was codified into law and hardened into tradition.
I’m not saying give up hope, I’m just saying we can’t count on “the forces of history” because they are not on our side.
The Truffle
@Major Major Major Major: The fact that they now have the vapors means the left is doing something right.
Topic: I’d like to see Kennedy stay where he is and in the meantime, let’s elect a better person in 2020.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@The Truffle: apparently Laura Ingham (so, FWIW) is hinting that Thomas may be this summers retirement, she clerked for him. It’s said he hates the job and only hung on this long to deny satisfaction to the people who hate him.
,mary b todd
@ Brachiator:
@ Fair Economist: If y’all remember that far back … Bush’s FIRST pick was Harriet Miers. Alito was the result of the insulting response to Miers’ nomination.
opiejeanne
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: There was a woman outside the grocery store a couple of days ago collecting signatures against a proposed injection site, or Heroin injection site as she put it. I’m assuming this is part of a needle exchange program. She was gone when we came back out of the store. I wonder how much success she had. If she was there when we came out I was going to take her stupid head off because clean needles is a BIG FUCKING DEAL in my life although a somewhat lesser concern than HIV.
I had Hepatitis C and was treated successfully for it in 2005. I caught it as the result of multiple blood transfusions when I hemorrhaged following a hysterectomy in 1985. At least 4 pints. From the type 4 Hep C I have assumed the donor had shared needles in Marrakesh (a small bit of black humor). The leading cause of liver transplants in the US is Hep C. Liver cancer is not uncommon among people with Hep C. In 2005 the protocol was hellish but not as hellish as the previous one, and with better results.
A lot of people could have been spared a lot of misery just caused by that one thing. A lot of lives spared if they hadn’t gotten Hepatitis C.
Major Major Major Major
@trollhattan: That’s definitely very true, I was just saying that it isn’t just all money-related or money-adjacent.
trollhattan
@Major Major Major Major:
Your issues are more important to decent folk but of course “freedom-loving” Republicans only respond to fiscal stuff. #statestheobvious
Peale
@The Moar You Know: Yep. And part of the reason she was able to retire is that she put a Republican in the White House.
Brachiator
@Major Major Major Major:
Actually, I’d say most protestants. But then again, I’m one of those people who are amazed that anyone who attends a theological school and pays attention could emerge believing in the “truth” of religion at all.
I’ve also heard clergy people discuss with other religious folk deep and philosophical issues related to the Bible and freely acknowledge thorny theological issues and then deliver sermons that are simplistic nonsense pitched to the rubes in the congregation.
Also, too, I had a religious studies professor make a good case that the Book of Esther was inspired by a pagan fertility cult goddess and fry the noodles of an evangelical kid in the class. Good times.
Major Major Major Major
@Brachiator: perhaps most by raw numbers, but I was more “just sayin'”, there’s a very wide variety. The ones I knew growing up (Denver) were mostly of the of-course-it’s-complicated variety. But we also had a really conservative church for a hot minute, we didn’t know until the
lecture about how the pastor’s lesbian daughter is going to hellsermon on Amendment 2 (of Romer v. Evans fame). And now I’m in SF of course. American Protestantism is so varied and regional.@trollhattan: yeah, I guess appealing to decent folks is a sucker’s game.
Brachiator
@,mary b todd:
Wow. I remember the backlash against Miers was one of the few times that Republicans acted with a genuine concern for the country. Miers was spectacularly unqualified, and conservative pundits who would otherwise kiss Bush’s ass had the brains and guts to speak up on this occasion.
glory b
@Brachiator: “Do not blame Caesar, blame the people of Rome who have so enthusiastically acclaimed and adored him and rejoiced in their loss of freedom and danced in his path and gave him triumphal processions and laughed delightedly at his licentiousness and thought it very superior of him to acquire vast amounts of gold illicitly. Blame the people who hail him when he speaks in the Forum of the ‘new, wonderful good society’ which shall now be Rome’s, interpreted to mean ‘more money, more ease, more security, more living fatly at the expense of the industrious.”
Allegedly from Cicero
Brachiator
@Major Major Major Major:
Yep. Fair point.
I was never religious or much of a church goer. But most of my friends were varieties of religious, in Texas and California. I would sometimes attend, as a courtesy. In some Texas congregations there was an odd, shameful “don’t ask don’t tell” policy with respect to gay members who were in the choir or band (a few churches had people play guitar, bass and drums to accompany the organ). At another church, the women who sat in the front row were cuties who would soon end up impregnated by the pastor or a deacon, and who would continue to be members in good standing as their bellies swelled
.
glory b
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:http://www.thedailybeast.com/jill-steins-ideology-says-one-thingher-investment-portfolio-says-another
There’s one on Jill Stein here.
gene108
@Amir Khalid:
You can enter the U.S.A., either legally, such as on a visitors visa or illegally, and then petition the government to grant you permanent residency via asylum / refugee laws. While your case is being adjudicated you can stay in the country, work, etc. If your case is not adjudicated in your favor, then you will be deported.
But the folks from Syria have already gone through the process for getting permanent residency via asylum / refugee laws.
Victor Matheson
@Brachiator: Of course, they only spoke up because they couldn’t be sure, given her lack of constitutional law experience, that she would be a reliable conservative vote.
Stan
@D58826:
Not my comment
Anonymous patient
@D58826:
Maybe some of these evangelistic Christians should be urged home to be with Jesus more pronto than previously expected. I know they would all be grateful as all heck to get home to Jesus ASAP and stop saving the little pre-born babbies.
I pray for the Rapture to come so that all the God-botherers will be gone to leave the heathen to live in peaseful quiet.
Matthew 6 – pray in private so as to not be thought a hypocrite
Stan
@Major Major Major Major:
No my friend, according to 538.com they’re roughly 38% right now. Bummer.
Barbara
@gene108: The U.S. has several humanitarian visa categories. These include the treaty status of asylum, based on the Geneva Conventions. They also include statutory categories of T and U visas (trafficking and other crime victims). Refugee status for the most part is NOT a right by statute or treaty, but discretionary for the executive. That’s where the executive has the broadest discretion, and what attributes come with refugee status can also vary — how long the status is given, the terms under which you can migrate from refugee or humanitarian visa to permanent resident, for instance. Humanitarian visas do not convey permanent residence until a certain time has elapsed. The right to work is also not automatic until the visa has been granted or a certain amount of time has elapsed. Right now, the waiting list for an asylum interview is really long so a lot of people probably do end up getting temporary work visas. All of this is to say that refugees have the lowest legal standing to assert a right of entry into the U.S, even if their paperwork has been completed. The difference between an asylum applicant and a refugee is vast, legally speaking.
J R in WV
@D58826:
I admit I can’t make heads or tails out of a Twitter thingy. Whatever it is escapes me, no thread of logic found, by me at least.
J R in WV
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Don’t hold back, Monte Cristo, what do you really think?
/s
Seriously, though, you left out despicable…no, wait, despise is the verb, despicable is the adjective, I’m good with that! But you could have mentioned Russian stooge, right? He is a marxist, self-proclaimed…
Brachiator
Screw the voters. The money men have spoken. From AP
Hal
So I wonder what Gorsuch’s LGTB friends are going to say when he relegates us all to second class citizen status.
Aleta
@Brachiator: Government for the wealthy by the wealthy.
Hal
@Brachiator: I’m totally going off memory, but weren’t conservatives concerned Miers might not be conservative enough for them? Not in the way Alito clearly was at least. I could be wrong.
Citizen Alan
@Hal:
That was my recollection as well. There was actually speculation that she was pro-choice. Certainly while she was unqualified she was not remotely as conservative as Alito. Most of the loud objection to her came from the Republican side.
Sergio Lopez-Luna
@Betty Cracker: I hope someone refuses to provide service to white people based on deeply held religious beliefs
Aleta
About American Protestantism: A large part of the peace and justice movement in the 60s came out of the Protestant church, including the Mennonite church. Dr. King gave his Vietnam speech at the Riverside Church in Harlem, a center for social justice organizing by urban ministries. It also was revolutionary in giving performance space to dancers and theater people who radically changed traditional art and access to it.
Dr. Vincent Harding (who worked with King and helped write the Vietnam speech):
J R in WV
@Raven Onthill:
When I see “a coded symbol, a cross or a fish maybe… then… they’ve found one of their own…” and I know not to even ask that business about their services.
Brachiator
@Hal:
Back then, the consensus was that appointing Miers to the Supreme Court would be like, say, a president appointing his obviously unqualified son or daughter, or son-in-law to an office of trust in the United States. Inconceivable.
Look how far we’ve come.
john fremont
@The Thin Black Duke:Martin Buber put it as replacing an I-Thou relationship with an I-It.
Tehanu
@MJS:
If this is like those maps that showed that the vast majority of the counties had Dump majorities last November, please remember, the vast majority of those counties had way fewer actual human beings in them than the relatively few counties that had Clinton majorities. “Sagebrush Bushes for Dump” is not a healthy demographic.