Monday Even Open Thread: At Least We’ll Die Fighting


Apart from that, what’s on the agenda for the evening?

For y’all to forward on social media…

56 replies
  1. 1
    Baud says:

    Trump is sort of McConnell’s dupe here. This is not what Trump ran on and the impacts will hit Trump’s base hard.

    That’s good news, at least.

  2. 2
    rikyrah says:

    The new horrible news is the 4 million losing Employer provided Healthcare coverage. The rest, we knew. Will spread the word.

  3. 3
    bystander says:

    Even Wretched Gretchen is appalled. But the real profile in courage is John McCain. What a completely craven coward he is.

  4. 4
    zhena gogolia says:

    Jon Favreau’s tweet is good.

  5. 5
    FDRLincoln says:

    For years conservatives have talked about what they would do if liberals came for their guns.

    Well, now the conservatives are coming for our children, our parents, our grandparents, US….this bill or something like it would kill hundreds of thousands of our fellow citizens.

    What do we do? We certainly don’t lay down and give up.

  6. 6
    Patricia Kayden says:

    Sadly I can’t think of any reason why Republicans wouldn’t pass this bill in the Senate. They have no conscience so it’s not as if you can appeal to them. But I am thankful to all of the good liberals and progressives who persist and resist. Things look bleak but perhaps enough Republican Senators are fearful of being kicked out of office that they’ll do the right thing (reluctantly).

  7. 7
    Bago says:

    Dear politicians. I support universal health coverage because I understand germ theory. Apparently some people think that pathogens check your bank balance before spreading…

  8. 8
    rikyrah says:

    What did Country Last say?

  9. 9
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @bystander: Mavericky Maverick McCain strikes again. He should have retired a long time ago when he still had a little dignity to spare.

  10. 10
    Ruckus says:

    Guns you and I can buy only kill one bullet at a time. That’s not near fast enough for republicans. I don’t think this is just for the tax cuts. There are other ways to get tax cuts. But that wouldn’t kill off millions of their opponents. And no they don’t care if it kills off millions of republicans who voted for them as long as it kills off more liberals.

  11. 11
    Hal says:

    A conservative friend is arguing on Facebook that California’s travel ban is an assault on state sovereignty and free speech rights, and I’m so fucking confused right now. She’s also contradicting herself in so many ways it’s actually kind of hilarious.

  12. 12

    @Ruckus: Why do you think it kills more liberals. The poorest states are red not blue.

  13. 13
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @FDRLincoln: Yes and I hope that we have learned that the best way to fight is to vote for the more qualified candidate even if she’s not your cup of tea. All of this foolishness and horror wouldn’t be happening under a President Hillary Clinton even if she made mistakes once in a while. A joke like Trump should never have been elected.

  14. 14
    FDRLincoln says:

    @Ruckus: If the Russians set off a bomb that killed a million Americans, or a hundred thousand, or even a thousand, what would we do?

    That’s what’s happened here. The Russians, through Traitor Trump and the GOP, are trying to set off a bomb that will kill a huge number of Americans and cause a recession to boot.

  15. 15
    Ruckus says:

    @Patricia Kayden:
    Gunna go there.
    McCain gave up what little dignity he may have ever possessed decades ago.
    He wouldn’t know what the word meant if you hit him over the head with it.

  16. 16
    FDRLincoln says:

    @Patricia Kayden: Of course. And I supported Hillary and caucused for her and and donated to her and voted for her and argued for her with my Sanders-loving friends.

  17. 17
    ruemara says:

    I’ve said this before and I don’t really see people taking it seriously, but I do believe it’s time to call for a general strike and shut down the country. This is dangerous

  18. 18
    debbie says:


    I think bystander’s referring to this.

  19. 19
    Mnemosyne says:


    Apparently some people think that pathogens check your bank balance before spreading…

    Some people forgot to read “The Masque of the Red Death,” apparently.

  20. 20
    Betsy says:

    These two pieces helped me understand why the crazy kot-terned Republicans are doing this.


    The Koch Bros. can spend a third of one-percent of their $96 billion in wealth (that 0.003 equals $350 million in dark money ) influencing elections, think-tanks, news media, fake activists, PACs, etc. to achieve their quasi-religious vision of a plutocracy in which the popular will and votes don’t matter at all.

    That’s where all this is really coming from.

    Eye-opening. An existential threat to our society, basically.

  21. 21
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Hal: And she’s probably all in with the Muslim ban, right? Conservatives are just not all that bright. But looks like SCOTUS may okay the Travel Ban in its next session. Sigh.

  22. 22
    Mnemosyne says:


    I agree with you, but it should be something more like the Blue Flu (with a flu-related name). Everyone who has sick pay calls in on the same day.

  23. 23
    Underpaid Propagandist says:

    Yves Smith was right. The demented fool only chose the wrong administration

  24. 24
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Betsy: And the Koch Brothers will get a huge tax cut if Trump Care passes. Ain’t that nice? It’s not as if they need any more money.

  25. 25
    Ruckus says:

    There are lots of liberals who can barely afford the health care the ACA affords. We’ve been told that a lot of those people in red states are minorities who don’t vote for whatever reason, who would probably vote liberal. Even if this isn’t true do you think that republicans would give a shit?
    As an example take CA. An expensive place to live, I know of people who didn’t like being told that they had to purchase HC insurance, because paying rent and food and transportation is expensive, especially out of how much they earn.
    Lots of people are barely living paycheck to paycheck. More expensive places (blue states) may be doing better economically overall but they also have large swaths of people not doing all that well. This bill will kill them. And as I said republicans don’t give a shit if they kill their own, and that’s as long as they stand even a chance of killing more of us than them. For them thinning the herd is a positive. This bill will kill them off. All they’ve been afraid of before is seeming to be too vicious. They think that drumpf gives them cover.
    Something positive may be to convince drumpf to not sign this massive piece of shit bill – because it will forever brand him as the worst president ever. They don’t have the override votes so they get one shot and have to convince drumpf that it’s in his interest to sign it. We should at least work the other side of the street here.

  26. 26
    rikyrah says:

    What a piece of shyt.😠
    His phucking azz has had cancer 4 times. He is a walking pre-existing condition, and has the nerve to vote for this.😠😠😠

  27. 27
    James Powell says:


    What do we do? We certainly don’t lay down and give up.

    No, but I live in Culver City, California. I’m getting emails asking me to DO SOMETHING!!! but I’m confident my senators and congresswoman are already where I want them to be on this issue (despite lingering doubts about Feinstein on anything corporate).

    Beyond phone calls, letters, and online comments, I’d recommend massive voter registration drives in the blue parts of swing states and red states. I’m repeating this ad nauseam: the time for action was November 8. 2016. The next time for action is November 6, 2018. Everybody has to work toward winning the next election or this game will be over for another generation.

  28. 28
    WaterGirl says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    All of this foolishness and horror wouldn’t be happening under a President Hillary Clinton even if she made mistakes once in a while.

    Correction: This horror wouldn’t be happening even if Clinton made terrible mistakes every single day. I really want to ask the (way too many) people I know who voted for Trump or stayed home if they are horrified by what the Dumpster is doing, but I’m afraid to ask because if the answer is no, I don’t think I could ever let that go. It took me months to be able to deal with my sisters.

  29. 29
    WaterGirl says:

    @ruemara: I agree.

  30. 30
    WaterGirl says:

    @Mnemosyne: That would work for me, too.

  31. 31
    WaterGirl says:

    @rikyrah: Not that it’s any excuse, but I’m not sure McCain even knows what day of the week it is anymore. His family and his colleagues should be forcing him to step down.

  32. 32
    WaterGirl says:

    oops, sorry, apparently this thread is dead. or it wasn’t, but i killed it.

  33. 33
    Ruckus says:

    Do not get me wrong. I agree with your take. Vlad knows that if he started a bomb war, he’d lose badly. Of course he’d just be one out of everyone else because we’d most likely all be dead within weeks if not seconds. Covert opps are much less likely to backfire on him. That they may is worth the risk to him. Also think about this, if, and it’s a pretty strong if, drumpf and his henchmen are guilty (and I think they are as dirty as it gets) what’s to keep some congresspeople from having been bought? Nothing. If Vlad did try to fix the elections the way we think he did, would he have left out those who could help or hurt him after his boy won?

  34. 34
    James Powell says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Exactly. And I’d like to add that Hillary Clinton’s shortcomings – real or imagined – were no reason for North Carolina, Pennsylvania & Wisconsin to re-elect Burr, Toomey, and Johnson.

  35. 35
    Ruckus says:

    Was thinking the same thing. But how? we don’t have a strong recent history of strikes and I can’t recall off the top if we’ve ever really had a general strike in this country. How do we get people to participate? What do we do about the armed morons who might now think they are supposed to stop something like that? Would the police protect or just start shooting any large gathering of people. Because I don’t see a general strike working if it’s not also public. Just staying home for a day or even a week isn’t going to work.

  36. 36
    James Powell says:


    It took me months to be able to deal with my sisters.

    You’re doing much better than I am. I still haven’t spoken to my Ohio siblings. I have nothing to say but an obscenity laced tirade.

  37. 37
    Aleta says:

    Before the ACA, one of the best carpenters in town, who did beautiful work for wealthy summer people, died of cancer that he waited to long to get checked after symptoms began. He had no insurance, like all the other independent workers who help the summer people. The complaints about available carpenters now (no longer trained by J at the start as his assistants) never end now. No one in the seasonal upper class seems to connect the lack of health care for the low wage locals to their own interests, even when it’s obvious.

  38. 38
    Quinerly says:

    SEN Collins a definite NO. She tweeted it.

  39. 39
    ruemara says:

    @Ruckus: It would be great if people with bigger platforms discussed it. I think people are truly afraid to lock up portions of the country in protest. Yes, yes, women’s march. Proper & legal with fun hats. Look, your country is about to go plutocrat kleptocracy. You’re still signing petitions online and getting permits. Well, I’m sure they’ll respond to the polite dissent with thoughtful looks at where they’ve gone wrong. I can’t tell you what to do. I don’t have that platform. But general strikes with coordination between unions and activist groups are what’s called for.

  40. 40
    Emma says:

    @Betsy: I am beginning to think we’re going after the wrong people. We don’t need to get the puppets, we need to get the pupeteers.

  41. 41
    Elie says:


    But Ruckus, if they do not pass it, what is to stop them from continuing to damage ACA through affecting the subsidies and spreading lies about its instability, causing insurers to drop out? They have us coming and going. Even if we stop ACRA, can insurance markets take the abuse they are heaping on ACA? Yes, they will be stuck with this — they will own it — but not immediately. The consequences actually fall on ACA if they do not pass ACRA and spend all their time pointing to the failure of ACA…. then their lousy health care is the Democrat’s fault. As horrible as this is, I am now convinced that maybe strategically its best for them to own this thing right now without ACA to kick around? What do you think? (I actually was influenced to this view from commenter SteveSTL….)

  42. 42
    pattonbt says:

    @Quinerly: Sure she is

  43. 43
    Bobby Thomson says:

    That’s cute. Nate thinks (1) Trump’s base is blue collar (it most definitely isn’t – he of all people should know better), (2) that Trump actually gives a shit about anyone but himself, and (3) that the people who voted for Trump will change their voting behavior if they or anyone they know is harmed by this.

  44. 44
    Quinerly says:

    We’ll see. This is a shitburger that even some can’t stomach.

  45. 45
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @schrodingers_cat: The poorest people tend to be blue.

  46. 46
    FDRLincoln says:

    @Elie: Well, one of my best friends buys her insurance on the exchange and will be priced out of the market under the GOP bill. She has lots of pre-existing conditions.

    My son is severely autistic. He’ll need Medicaid his whole life.

    They can fuck with ACA, yes, and it may very well die, but it buys us time. But the “let it happen” strategy, let the GOP pass this atrocity and hope the voters come to our side in 2018…there’s no guarantee that will work at all. What if there’s a Reichstag fire? Even if there isn’t, people will start dying next year.

    I had to talk my friend out of suicide the day after the election. This goes through, I may not succeed with that next time.

  47. 47
    JDM says:

    Trump ran on the unspoken slogan “I’m an idiot and I hope you are too”.

  48. 48
    Omnes Omnibus says:


    They can fuck with ACA, yes, and it may very well die, but it buys us time. But the “let it happen” strategy, let the GOP pass this atrocity and hope the voters come to our side in 2018…there’s no guarantee that will work at all. What if there’s a Reichstag fire? Even if there isn’t, people will start dying next year.


  49. 49
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @WaterGirl: The problem is that most/many Trump voters don’t even realize what they’ve done or how Trump is doing. My own in-laws are otherwise lovely people, but listen to Limbaugh and watch Fox religiously. They’re convinced that Trump is kind of a clown but that he’s doing a really good job, hamstrung by traitors in his administration. Also they’re also ecstatic that Hillary Might Get Prosecuted.

    Don’t think you can reach these people without fixing their awful media first.

  50. 50
    WaterGirl says:

    @James Powell: I haven’t resolved anything in my heart, and I still don’t feel the warmth I did before, but I am choosing to move forward acting like everything is okay. It’s bizarre, but I don’t know what to do. I have no experience with holding grudges.

  51. 51
    WaterGirl says:

    @MisterForkbeard: Ugh. That’s really depressing. On the positive side, you have talked me out of even toying with the idea of asking any of them what they think about Trump. I don’t think I could even pretend to get over that.

  52. 52
    Elie says:

    Thank you for your comment. My frustration got the best of me though I still fear what they can do to ACA. We fight on

  53. 53
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @WaterGirl: It’s particularly galling for my in-laws; my F-I-L is ex-military, and he should be appalled at how Trump treated Comey and where he put Flynn. But it’s in one ear and out the other, so…

  54. 54
    Quinerly says:

    My next door neighbor is 56, female, Lt Colonel in Air Force. Trump supporter. Loves him even more now than when she voted for him. Oh, and she’s a nurse, too.

  55. 55
    Lurking Canadian says:

    @Emma: We should give them a choice:

    Option A: 100% tax on any inheritance above $1B. 100% tax on investment income above $10M. Your kids will get to learn the value of Hard Work, Innovation and Market Discipline.

    Option B: Mme. La Guillotine.

    it’s a better deal than the aristos in France got, and they were only screwing with French peasants, not trying to render the entire planet uninhabitable.

  56. 56
    LongHairedWeirdo says:

    Nate Silver, you’re one of my heroes – statistician who turned his powers to good, and, alas, the guy who showed us the bad news that we didn’t want to see (that Trump had a one in three chance on election day – that doesn’t mean he was supposed to lose folks, it means that it was a roll of the die and here’s one place where D&D geeks understand the world better ‘n you!)

    But I hope you’ll forgive me because this deserves the bwahaha of disbelief. You think Trump *meant* anything he said?

    You think Trump meant *anything* he said?

    You think Trump meant anything *he said*?

    Sorry, Mr. Silver. I’d have given my own mother – well, okay, she didn’t understand debate. But I’d have given my brother or my best friend the bwahaha of disbelief in the same circumstances.

    Trump’s an invertebrate bullshitter.

    (Waits for it)
    Yes, I deliberately called him “spineless”. He’s also an inveterate bullshitter.

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