Well that's not who I expected to see in the seat pic.twitter.com/oFDHsJSKKQ
— Andrew Beatty (@AndrewBeatty) May 10, 2017
Keep in mind that, leading up to Comey's firing, Trump was not seen in public for five days pic.twitter.com/jU6U9NVOkR
— Judd Legum (@JuddLegum) May 9, 2017
A Republican close to President tells me Trump has been increasingly isolated in recent days. Frustrated, avoiding major public appearances
— Robert Costa (@costareports) May 10, 2017
+1 One of Trump’s associates told me the president is secluded in “Fortress Trump.” https://t.co/S7RABboMbA
— Evan Osnos (@eosnos) May 10, 2017
Isolated, frustrated, huddling in the Oval Office with Henry Kissinger. I've seen this movie before. https://t.co/W85rq9T9qa
— Anthony Zurcher (@awzurcher) May 10, 2017
Donald J. Trump, shambling zombie of the Nixonian Revanchists. Let’s hope this time comes to a more just and permanent solution — also, faster.
TenguPhule
Much faster.
Preferably while there’s something left to salvage from the Federal Government.
Baud
Assuming Trump is forced from office and doesn’t try the self-pardon thing, I don’t think Pence pardons him. Unlike Nixon, Trump doesn’t have a long history building up loyalties in the Republican Party. Plus, I’m sure Pence is egotistical enough to think he can win reelection and I’m not sure he would want to tie himself to Trump in that way.
sigaba
@TenguPhule: Can we start over with a parliamentary democracy please? Maybe with a powerless figurehead President– it’s the role Trump was born to play.
TenguPhule
@sigaba: I would vote for that.
Other then the figurehead. Still need CIC and other important things like keeping Congress from passing stupid shit into law.
Major Major Major Major
Even the Nixon Library is trying to shake themselves of the association.
TenguPhule
@Baud: If Pence doesn’t get caught in the same web I will be very disappointed in our Deep State.
Timurid
Oh hi there…
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
“You would figure out a way to both sides the Holocaust.”
TenguPhule
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): Too late.
“All lives matter.”
Jeffro
@Baud: Let’s hope the Dems make Pence specify exactly which crimes he’s pardoning Trump for. Every single one.
Baud
@Jeffro: All of them, Katie.
Villago Delenda Est
“It’s the damn Jews, Henry!”
kindness
At this point I would revel in Trump’s demise as President but absolutely hate the Theocracy that a President Pence would bring. God how I find ‘some’ evangelicals the exact opposite of what I was taught about Jesus as a kid.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
Tom Brokaw thinks a special prosecutor would undermine the institutions of government. Isn’t there a nice cup of vanilla pudding and bunny slippers waiting for him in a home somewhere?
Mnemosyne
Remember when Hillary’s consulting with Kissinger was a reason not to vote for her, because even Trump would never sink that low?
Good times, good times.
dogwood
@sigaba:
He was deffinetly NOT born to play a powerless figurehead. Those people are required to show restraint, civility, grace and class as heads of state while the politicians get to roll around in the mud. He’s at his most embarrassing at those figurehead moments- greeting foreign leaders, welcoming sports teams to the White House etc.
TenguPhule
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Hot coals and a long piece of iron out of bounds here?
/Kinder, Gentler. Look, its not easy people!
Villago Delenda Est
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): As I said on the Twitter Machine, “High Broderism should be a capital offense.”
SiubhanDuinne
@Timurid:
Things are moving. Good.
Dave
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): Upon the shores of fallen New Albion lay two monuments inscribed upon one is “but her emails!” Upon the other “both sides” beyond them stretches the desecrated wasteland.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Sadly yes.
All Republicans are guilty of any crime they accuse others of unless proven otherwise.
And the Purity left needs to be beaten until sanity ensues.
Villago Delenda Est
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Tom Brokaw lost it decades ago. Unfit to lick the soles of Uncle Walter’s shoes.
Mary G
@Timurid: I guess Richard Burr has decided to do more than just be concerned. Perhaps the closer than expected win over a girl in November shook some sense into him.
TenguPhule
@Dave: “Look upon my hands, ye mighty and Despair!”
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: At least Trump will keep us out of Afghanistan and won’t saber-rattle with North Korea, though.
tobie
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
WTF? It’s hard to see what, if any, logic there is to this argument.
Dave
@TenguPhule: Was feeling literary.
TenguPhule
@Villago Delenda Est: At this point, sign me up. Fair Trials really are overrated when guilt is clear and overwhelming.
Brachiator
Why the photo op?
So, far, same old BS.
A mild surprise.
It’s not just ghosts of presidents past. Even a piece of crap like Kissinger is more humane than Trump when it comes to refugees.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@kindness: There is no guarantee that Trumpovich’s downfall doesn’t also bring down Pence and maybe even Ryan. There is already solid evidence suggesting that Pence was complicit in several aspects of Trumpovich’s coverup, and Ryan may have been as well. If all three of them fall, I believe Orrin Hatch is next in line. He might be the least terrible of the four (which is not to say he is good, to be clear).
Baud
@tobie: The logic is that he likes Trump and doesn’t want to see him brought down.
TenguPhule
@Dave: And ideally not prophetic.
debbie
Kissinger seems … compressed.
Major Major Major Major
@(((CassandraLeo))): Isn’t Pence’s defense basically “I’m too stupid to have known what was happening”?
The Dangerman
Speaking of permanent, this ends in one of 2 ways:
Case 1: Trump and all his Family/Minions are as pure as the driven snow (yeah, it is to laugh) and we’ll all be pleased as punch to be lucky enough to have him as our President for another 7 plus years;
Case 2: If not, his misdeeds WILL come out and the Republican Party will be burnt to the ground. McConnell did himself no favors this morning by polishing Trump’s balls.
If there is something there, you can’t cover up something this big. Even a Wag The Dog ain’t covering it up.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: No, that’s Trump.
Pence is “I know nothing!”
debbie
@Baud:
Pence also turns on a dime. He’s loyal only to his wife and his fears.
Timurid
@tobie: White supremacy is a hell of a drug.
mdblanche
This past week has felt like one of the longest years of my life.
piratedan
@tobie: Brokaw? He’s a GOP cock holster is why
p.a.
@debbie:
The weight of history.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
And he just wants us to be friends with Russia. Why is it wrong to want better relations with Russia?
clay
@Major Major Major Major: And, of course, he won’t bomb brown people in the Middle East, unlike that bloodthirsty Hillary.
Baud
@Mnemosyne: IIRC, Hillary wanted to get us into a war with Russia. Glad we dodged that bullet.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
Wow, stopping the killing and the death! Why didn’t Obama think of that?
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Major Major Major Major: That seems to be the angle he’s going for, but it’s already been made apparent that he’s lied about things he claimed not to have known (I seem to remember Flynn’s meetings with the Russians being one case, and I think we also found out this week that he lied about Obama’s warnings about Flynn, but it might’ve been about something else). I can’t remember if he’s clearly perjured himself, but either way, he’s clearly not as out of the loop as he lets on. He may very well be extremely stupid, but that isn’t a legal defence.
Baud
@Brachiator:
Kissinger strikes me more as amoral than immoral.
BBA
@The Dangerman: There are other possibilities.
Case 3: The entire Democratic congressional delegation comes down with polonium poisoning…
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Someone should tell him there’s a Matlock marathon on TNC followed by a the-best-of The Golden Girls!
lamh36
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: smh… Brokaw has been long past time for retirement, unlike he compatriots like Dan Rather…he seemingly refuses to try to adapt to politics as it is today…
Miss Bianca
@Brachiator:
Because Kissinger actually seems to have at least one foot planted in the real world, unlike Trump.
@Major Major Major Major: LOL!
chris
Tapper on CNN. blunt and to the point.
ET
Oh poor baby. Not. So being President isn’t what you thought. Many people don’t like you, you can’t bully everyone into silence, and it doesn’t stop. It isn’t always about the fawning.
Give me a break.
lamh36
@ColinKahl
Colin Kahl Retweeted David S. Cohen
Former Dep CIA Director on whether it was a good idea to let Russian gov cameras/equipment into the Oval Office.
Cohen’s answer: NO
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@piratedan:
Yes, his default is Reagan era Republicans who were the gray suited fiscally conservative dog whistling adult bean counters – the rightful leaders who would keep the flaky long hairs, women and “those people” economically and culturally marginalized for the good of the country (a/k/a mediocre white men like him who benefit from white male supremacy).
dogwood
@chris:
I don’t have cable but check out some of it periodically. David Gregory on CNN seems to be the one going bananas over this in a big way. He’s just shouting down the republican hacks.
Baud
@lamh36: Was it a good idea to let a Russian puppet into the Oval Office?
NO.
BBA
@Baud: You take that back. Calling him a puppet is offensive to puppets everywhere, from Kermit and Big Bird to Servo and Crow.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@dogwood:
David Gregory??? *blink* *blink* *blink*
the same David Gregory who said it really wasn’t their job to ask questions?
lamh36
efgoldman
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
A can of Boost with a nice bendy straw.
TenguPhule
@BBA: Leads to Case 2, with the added bonus of pikes.
TenguPhule
@lamh36: Getting all the planted bugs out is gonna suck.
efgoldman
@Brachiator:
Kissinger was and is a lot of bad things, including a war criminal; but he was never, ever stupid.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@TenguPhule: One possibly flawed assumption here is that the Trumpovich administration cares about removing the bugs. Of course, it’ll suck for their successors. If they have them.
@efgoldman: Kissinger also acknowledges reality in a way Cheeto Benito doesn’t, because the latter gets all his news from the right-wing puke funnel, and the former is perceptive enough to realise that a lot of what the RWPF reports is bullshit.
Roger Moore
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
That’s trump’s job!
lamh36
Glenn Thrush on MSNBC, Pence one of the people encouraged Cheeto to fire Comey too… and folks trying to say Pence is innocent…BULLSHIT
Shana
@Dave: You win the interwebs for today.
Shana
@tobie: his argument I believe was something about the other taking too long.
lamh36
D-E-M-E-N-T-I-A !!!
Steeplejack
@lamh36:
Second comment: “Is okay. Is only Elf on Shelf.”
lamh36
@ryanjreilly
Deputy AG Rod Rosenstein still thinks he can oversee an independent Russia probe, a DOJ official tells me.
efgoldman
@debbie:
Except for the (R) behind his name, Dense has no more of a constituency in the party than Citrus Shitweasel does. He wasn’t out of Indiana ten minutes when the Lieutenant Governor and solidly Republiklown legislature started croaking a whole bunch of his bible banger initiatives.
dogwood
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Yep. First clip I saw he was calling out Ken Cuccinelli for repeating talking points, and he was pissed. Second one he was after Jeffrey Lord for calling the democrats hypocrites. He actually said it wasn’t hypocritical to be opposed to Comey and want him gone for the Hillary stuff, and still be opposed to a President firing someone who’s investigating him. He said you can easily hold those two thoughts at the same time. He called what Trump is doing a “purge.”
trollhattan
@TenguPhule:
Deep State is badly underperforming. If I don’t see results and soon there’s no raise and no bonus!
(((CassandraLeo)))
@dogwood: Damn. Maybe our media hacks finally is learning.
BBA
@TenguPhule: Does it? Or do the American people collectively shrug, and let a de facto one-party state take hold, like it has in Britain?
FlipYrWhig
@lamh36: His thing for Flynn is pathetic. And you know it’s entirely based on “he’s an army man! and he said he’d be my best friend!”
Ruviana
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Think that was Chuck Todd. He did, of course take over David Gregory’s seat at Press the Meat.
efgoldman
@dogwood:
Takes a hack to shout down a hack
Gregory has no credibility going back to his NBC days, when he worshiped at the altar of Broder.
lamh36
(((CassandraLeo)))
@BBA: What Britain is going through right now isn’t remotely comparable to having an entire political party blatantly assassinated. (It also doesn’t help that Corbyn appears to be extremely skilled at gaining power within a coalition, but very poor at actually managing it or even getting the coalition on board with his agenda. However, I’m saying this as an outside observer who doesn’t follow British politics all that closely, so I’m certain there are details I’m not picking up on.)
jl
@trollhattan: Deep State versus Derp State.
The old Mad Magazine Spy versus Spy comes to mind.
Davis X. Machina
@(((CassandraLeo))):
@BBA:
We’ve got our own Corbyn all cued up…
lamh36
@dogwood: yeah…I was as shocked as everyone to see Gregory on CNN doing what he rarely, if ever, did as host of MTP on any time else on MSNBC
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@dogwood:
That therapy NBC put him in to figure out why he sucked so much on MTP apparently worked.
efgoldman
@(((CassandraLeo))):
I imagine he still has (informal) sources in state and the military, too.
Mike in NC
Took my car in for service at the dealership today. Walked into the waiting room and they had FOX Noise blaring from the TV. Just a nonstop parade of morons fluffing Trump, including scumbag Ben Stein. Once alone I turned down the volume and changed the channel. After waiting two hours they sent me on my way without charging me a penny.
jl
@Ruviana: I keep getting Press the Meat and FaecPlant Nation mixed up.
Major Major Major Major
@(((CassandraLeo))): There are very big schisms within Labour which Corbyn is less healing than symbolizing.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Davis X. Machina: If you mean Wilmer, I think he’s already pissed off enough of the Democratic base to be unable to win in 2020. This includes people who voted for him the first time around, myself included. The only way I’d vote for him again is if the only alternative were someone like Cuomo. (I’d even be willing to consider someone like Manchin over Wilmer, depending upon his platform, because Cuomo’s liberalism-above-replacement-value-Democrat factor is negative, while Manchin’s is about even. Sanders has real blind spots on social issues that come close to being deal breakers for me.) The FBI investigation into his wife may mean he won’t even bother running again; plus, he’s really old.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Ruviana:
Gregory had the same WTF moment about the Iraq war:
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Major Major Major Major: I suspect you may be correct about this to a rather large extent. Socialism never took root here like it did in the U.K., and New Labour vs. socialism is a much larger distinction than New Deal liberalism vs. Third Way centrism (which doesn’t even have much of a constituency anymore apart from the Villagers). The fact that Britain’s voting system largely only allows two parties in any general region isn’t helping here. It’s a shame that the Lib Dems fucked up their chance to get rid of FPTP, because it would’ve been a lot more beneficial for the left in that country if the Lib Dems had become the New Labour Party and Labour had become the socialists inside of a three-party system, but as it stands, as long as the two factions can’t resolve their differences, the left in that country is probably fucked for awhile. I do think a more skilled parliamentarian than Corbyn may be capable of papering over those differences, but that appears to be beyond his skills; he doesn’t even seem to recognise how to exploit Brexit against the Tories.
@efgoldman: I suspect this is correct.
Amaranthine RBG
@lamh36:
I think you mean to say the Donald Trump has created some more new jobs, this time in the oil spill cleanup sector!
/s
TenguPhule
@trollhattan:” If Trump’s head isn’t on a platter by Independence Day, the Office Christmas Party is cancelled!”
efgoldman
@(((CassandraLeo))):
Both of these in equal measure. His sell by date was last May. Democrats (that is, actual Dems) who threw him a vote last time, won’t next time; and the primary opposition definitely won’t be as hands off/kid gloves next time, whether or not anything comes of the mrs Wilmer investigation.
jl
@(((CassandraLeo))):
” One possibly flawed assumption here is that the Trumpovich administration cares about removing the bugs. Of course, it’ll suck for their successors. If they have them. ”
They’ll have to keep an eye on the flunkies who are running the North American Oblast (doubt we will rate being a real Republic).
dogwood
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Also, too, he’s not hosting a program now; he’s serving as a panelist. Two different jobs.
Amaranthine RBG
@debbie: Anytime a man vows not to be in the room alone with a woman who is not his wife, he’s fucking around on his wife.
TenguPhule
@BBA: Murder would motivate the Democrats. They’re not Labor.
Major Major Major Major
@efgoldman: He also wouldn’t be running against Satan incarnate, possibly not even a lady, so his shtick wouldn’t work nearly as well.
Mnemosyne
@BBA:
I think our Democrats are fighting back more effectively than anyone in Labour is. Adam Schiff and Chuck Schumer are not Jeremy Corbyn.
BBA
@(((CassandraLeo))): I was being darkly flippant there, but I can easily imagine lower-level Russian ratfucking to screw the Democrats out of even our current meager status. Trump manages to hang on long enough to die of a stroke and the Pence administration sweeps everything under the rug on the grounds of not speaking ill of the dead. Then tax cuts and abortion bans for all!
But, y’know, maybe I’m just a starry-eyed optimist.
Roger Moore
@BBA:
There’s a difference between the voters choosing a de facto single party state because only one party has its shit together and getting a de facto single party state because one party had the leaders of the other party murdered. One of those things has, by definition, support from the voting public, and even the people who voted the other way are likely to accept the results as legitimate. The other has no legitimacy and is likely to get the people who voted the other way literally up in arms.
Baud
@efgoldman: I don’t know if this was the intent, but it seems like Wilmer’s star has gone down since he went on tour with Perez.
Roger Moore
@lamh36:
Hoocoodanode!
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Be fair, Adam Schiff and Chuck Schumer don’t have the entire DNC plotting to replace them right after they were elected. And the DNC is only a little stupid, not completely nuts.
Mnemosyne
@Amaranthine RBG:
For once, you and I agree about something.
jl
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: That statement sounds like the automatic thought process of a brainwashed corporate hack who can’t imagine any difference between skeptical investigative journalism and critical inquiry and evaluation from mindless opposition, and entrenched disloyalty. So, if the corporate funded therapy sessions worked, I guess they went out of control.
I didn’t want or need for the corporate news media to yell ‘Liar Liar!’ every night. There were plenty of demonstrators to do that. I just didn’t want them to be a mindless jingoistic cheering squad for Dick and Dub’s amazing and excellent adventure.
BBA
@lamh36: UNPOPULAR VIEW ALERT: if it wasn’t a leaky pipeline it’d be a derailed tanker train, which is a lot worse. Until we get everything on solar there’s no getting around it,
spiceoil must flow.Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
And that’s where the parallel fails: as longtime Democratic loyalists, Schiff and Schumer ARE the DNC and have large constituencies within it.
TenguPhule
@BBA: You have violated Alpha Complex Protocol. Report to the Disintegration Chamber for Recycling.
/Name that cultural reference!
Amaranthine RBG
@Mnemosyne:
Ring the chapel bells!!!
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@jl:
I watched it in real time, and it was like we’ll report the Democrats calling Bush a liar, but it’s not our job to do that. Of course when Republicans are in power the Sunday/pundit panel shows have Republicans to discuss the insider view on policy and politics, and when Democrats are in power, they have Republicans on to denigrate and lie about the policy and politics.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne: So does Corbyn, he has the base but the party elite hate him to the point of madness. I keep pointing out that for someone that they call a loser, he still managed to beat every single one of their other candidates at election time simply by being a better person.
dogwood
@Mnemosyne:
I’m always most impressed by democrats who know how to use their power, whether it’s great or limited, than I am with those who are ideologically pure and feckless at recognizing the opportunities and limitations of power. That’s why I like Jason Kandar. He’s from Mo. and might be more moderate than I, but I like that he’s a real fighter who displays dignity and class. I wish that Evan McMullen guy wasn’t a right winger, cuz I like the way he goes after Trump without sounding snarky or petulant.
Baud
GOS
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: Makes me think more that he wants to. It’s classic projection, like how the only people who think homosexuality is a choice are the closet cases who decide every day not to make it.
@dogwood:
And his uncle wrote “Tomorrow Belongs To Me” among other light classics.
Baud
@TenguPhule: As i understand it, they have a much different party system there than we do here. I’m not sure how far comparisons go.
efgoldman
@Baud:
It certainly didn’t help him among Dems who actually pay attention between elections.
Mnemosyne
@Baud:
I find it surprising that there’s no automatic recount for a margin that small.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Remember, you’re talking about VP Dense here.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Baud:
Jeebus, keep Sanders away from all of these red state Dems. In fact Sanders and Trump both need to be carted away in the middle of the night.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@dogwood: McMullin is one of the few people in this country whom I would actually dignify with the label “conservative”. The word, at one point, intended to signify the philosophy of not changing aspects of government or society that are functioning properly, cf. Edmund Burke et al. Most self-proclaimed “conservatives” in America don’t seem to follow this philosophy at all. There are a few others who might also deserve the label, such as Tom Nichols, Jennifer Rubin, John Schindler, David Frum, Ana Navarro, and (lately, on most occasions) Glenn Beck. Most of the Republicans are reactionaries, which was quickly revealed when most of the supposed #NeverTrump movement reverted to form after he became the nominee/president*-elect.
I am not myself a conservative, but I could actually have a civilised discussion with McMullin that would lead towards some sort of understanding and enlightenment for both of us, and we’d probably reach agreement on a rather large number of topics. I can’t see myself doing that with most of the Republican base.
In short, if there were more Republicans like McMullin and less like… most of the rest of them, the country would be in much better shape.
jl
@Baud:
” I don’t know if this was the intent, but it seems like Wilmer’s star has gone down since he went on tour with Perez. ”
Sorry folks. I just checked some poll aggregates. Bernie Sanders and Barack Obama seem to be the only politicians or political organizations whose approval ratings are still steadily rising.
The Bernie hatred here among some is completely unhinged. They guy isn’t running again. He’s a great carnival barker to bring people into the Democratic road show. And, sad news for some folks here. The purity ponies will still be with us, even if Sanders does not run again (and I hope neither he nor HRC do that). The Democrats need leadership who understand how to get as many of them on board as possible next time.
SiubhanDuinne
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
David Gregory is, or was, all kinds of tool, but let’s not be unfair or unkind. The person who said that memorable line was actually Chuck “Chuckles” Todd “Toad.”
Baud
@jl: Poling is meaningless this far from an election. I’m talking about how people who follow politics feel. I’m saying the negativity on Wilmer seems to have spread beyond BJ.
KithKanan
@TenguPhule: Paranoia, much?
zhena gogolia
@Major Major Major Major:
That’s underselling Kander and Ebb just a bit!
hovercraft
@efgoldman:
I saw him last night, he was apoplectic then. I don’t know what’s gotten into him.
TenguPhule
@Baud: The guardian had a good long read on Corbyn’s election. He was a joke candidate that nobody in the Lords or Commons thought would win. Then he showed his balls by actually taking a principled stand while everyone else bent over for the Tories and won back a lot of disillusioned labor supporters in the process. The Labor party elites have never forgiven him for it.
TenguPhule
@KithKanan: The Computer is your friend. And Friend Computer is always listening. Always listening.
Kenneth Kohl
@debbie:
One and the same? ;)
zhena gogolia
@Baud:
Opened my New Yorker this afternoon to see the obligatory letter to the editor: “You talk about the danger of Trump, but until the Democratic Party wakes up and starts offering strong progressive candidates like [Wilmer], yadayadayada, Eugene, Oregon.” Barf.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@SiubhanDuinne:
reposted from above:
dogwood
@SiubhanDuinne:
I actually think Todd said it wasn’t their job to fact check. Asking questions- yes; fact checking responses – no.
Baud
@TenguPhule: I have no dog in that fight. But they appear to be heading for a drubbing. And he’s been leader for a while now.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@jl: I agree with him on most economic issues, but he’s been really tone-deaf on social issues lately, starting with the fact that social issues are economic issues. The fact that women, minorities, queer people, etc. make less money than their more privileged counterparts is an economic issue, and thus the whole concept of “identity politics” is complete bullshit and generally a signifier that a speaker is out of their element (particularly if they’re dismissing as a distraction). All politics are ultimately both identity politics and economic politics.
I’ve got other quibbles about Wilmer as well, but that’s the biggest one.
Sloane Ranger
@dogwood: You think David Gregory is pissed, you should hear Jeffrey Toobin. He sounds like a fully paid up member of the Resistance. At one point he described whoever gets to be the new FBI Director as a “Trump stooge!
Baud
@zhena gogolia: He’ll always have his fans. And maybe my impression is wrong. Maybe nothing has changed.
dm
@BBA:
I think this will take few forms, including:
– character assassination of the sort practiced against Clinton for 25 years
– click-bait headlines and faux-controversies
– trolls counseling despair
– trolls counseling division
We’ll see these being used to criticize Democrats from the Republican point of view but also to sew discord among Democrats — we know about the crap aimed at Clinton, but a lot of us here are pretty credulous when the click-bait is used to defame the junior Senator from Vermont.
We’ve already seen it aimed at Elizabeth Warren (a “phony” who “attacked” Obama for the $400,000 speaking fee, when all she did was respond to a question about it, remarking it “troubled her”, but then she moved on to the more important topic of reining in the banksters).
Or the faux “Perez was booed in Maine” story (pushed by Breitbart and Newsmax). Look beyond Breitbart and you find the Washington Post mentioning “scattered boos” and a video in which you wouldn’t notice there were boos unless you knew they were there.
A thing for us all to do is to be generous and vigilant. Read past the click-bait to the real quotes in context. We need to build a coalition, which means we won’t all agree 100%. I know this is beyond some purity ponies, but even some of them might learn — maybe even in time for the next election.
KithKanan
@TenguPhule: It’s been a while since I’ve played, but I remember it being rare to get past the mission briefing without at least someone losing a few clones from their six-pack.
SiubhanDuinne
@lamh36:
Yeah, that’s been troubling me since I first read or heard about it earlier today. A meeting with a couple of Russian dignitaries and members of the official Russian “press” ha ha ha, but no objective observers, such as American reporters/photographers to keep an eye on what’s going down?
It stinks it stinks it stinks it stinks it stinks to high heaven. And it gets stinkier with every day that passes.
Baud
@dm: I agree. People who don’t like Bernie should be cautious about trusting media reports. The same holds for any story that appears critical of Dems, especially in the NYT.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@jl:
We don’t need or want the alt-left purity ponies – they’re not team players, and spend all their time threatening to cut themselves and run away from home if we don’t give them everything they want. They’re flaky, flighty and the instant they sense their demands aren’t being centered, they ally with the white alt-right in support of restoring a white male – Trump or Wilmer, take your pick since they’re essentially the same person – to the center of power. They have nothing to offer. We will make room for them, but that’s not what they want, they want us coalition of women/PoC pragmatic liberals to step aside. NO FUCKING WAY.
TenguPhule
@Baud: Yes, because those same elites decided that post-Brexit vote was the perfect time to start a civil war within Labor instead of hammer the Tories. And its gone downhill ever since. Ironically its the “moderates” who are being purity ponies and want to write off most of the labor base in exchange for being considered “very serious people” by the Tory voters who are never gonna vote for them.
Chyron HR
@jl:
Yes, instead we’ll have his followers demanding that we recognize Tulsi “Kill All Muzzies” Gabbard as the most progressive person who ever lived.
Kropadope
@(((CassandraLeo))):
Funny, your assessment of the correlation of social and economic issues sounds an awful lot like Bernie’s assessment that you refer to as tone-deaf.
@Baud: It’s been beyond BJ for a looooong time. Still completely unhinged.
TenguPhule
@KithKanan: You managed to finish a briefing? Obviously you Evil Commies weren’t trying hard enough to please Friend Computer.
dm
@dogwood:
Another name for you to watch is Seth Moulton.
@Major Major Major Major:
I always thought that was “real”.
Baud
@TenguPhule: I don’t know enough to have a view. I certainly don’t believe it’s necessarily the left that is always in the wrong politically.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@dm:
Seth Moulton is a future president. He’s got it all.
SatanicPanic
@Chyron HR: I’m willing to let it go for now. Doesn’t mean we can’t have this conversation later, but right now I’ll hold my fire.
Cacti
@zhena gogolia:
Has a single candidate endorsed by Wilmer actually won anything to date?
lamh36
They SHOULD be worried!
TenguPhule
Oh you have got to be fucking kidding me.
I just can’t. I just can’t.
KithKanan
@TenguPhule: I’m tempted to bust it out for the group I’m in when it’s my turn to GM, but the D&D 5e campaign we’re playing is silly enough to begin with that there may not be any real point.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Cacti:
No. There is ZERO demand for Wilmer or Berniecrats in the electorate, but his cult simply can’t accept it.
MCA1
@lamh36: Hadn’t thought of that aspect of it. Amazing. Some Democratic type (not that they get invited to the WH these days, but whatever) should make a public deal about refusing an Oval Office visit out of concern they’re on Kompromat Kamera.
germy
@zhena gogolia:
Pure idiocy.
aimai
@dm: Yeah, no. I hate bernie all on my own.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Kropadope: If he’s said things along those lines, then cool, but I’ve seen plenty of quotes where he doesn’t make social issues part of his class analysis, when in fact they’re inextricably linked. I’m sceptical of his priorities to say the least.
FlipYrWhig
@zhena gogolia: I am as guilty of putting myself in comfortable bubbles as anyone else, but, wow, it really is rich when people in the archipelago of college towns and hipster enclaves presume that they are the true face of the Democratic Party. When I first moved to where I live now (SE Virginia) about 12 years ago I looked into the local Democratic Party chapter and they had a pinned item on their website: a petition to remove Nancy Pelosi as House Minority Leader. There are _a lot_ of Democrats, active Democrats, all over the map, who aren’t liberals and aren’t moping around because they don’t hear enough liberal things. Even play-strategizing like we do, I wish we’d collectively do a better job of keeping that in mind.
TenguPhule
@KithKanan: D&D doesn’t allow you to have fun and hijinx with hand held nuclear grenades and a respawn option.
different-church-lady
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD):
Aleta
Dreading what will *follow* the long ugliness and then impeachment: Pence standing before us piously talking about a national healing and coming together under him.
Kathleen
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: That was Chuck Todd, Gregory’s successor on Meet The Press.
Kropadope
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Oh, like geg who insists the Democratic party would fall apart without geg’s volunteer efforts? Or how about Mnemosyne who was telling me the other night that she only supports the Democrats because her most personally held issues ARE front and center in the party, and she wouldn’t support them otherwise?
People whose issues aren’t front and center, yet vote for the Democrats anyways, are more loyal Democrats than you “moderate” (for lack of a better term) purtiy ponies will ever be. Yet we have to hear constantly how we should stop arguing for our own preferred policies getting a boost. Because you, like Trump, view politics as a zero sum game. And your purity is better than ours and, more importantly, more dominant than ours. So if you tell us to leave the party and we don’t we’re the ones tearing the party apart. Got it, you sanctimonious POS.
KithKanan
@TenguPhule: True, but so far we’ve had a sentient jar of ghost peppers on our side as we fought a cheese golem, so I’d describe the campaign as ‘rather silly’.
SiubhanDuinne
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
You’re quite right, and I apologise for the error. Chuckles was the one who said it wasn’t the job of ::cough:: journalists ::cough:: to fact-check, was it Obamacare claims?
Anyhow, that NBC News culture must have been quite something, yes?
Cacti
@Kropadope:
Why can’t Wilmer get anyone elected?
dogwood
@TenguPhule:
The Russians influenced the Brexit vote, and the Brits don’t seem to give a damn. Where Corbyn stand on this is hard to figure at times. He runs the party now so what happens is on him. He seems to be a perfect example of something I said earlier today. People conflate ideological issues with the actual skill set required to perform a leadership role.
TenguPhule
@KithKanan:
What kind of cheese?
Baud
@germy: Jesus.
@FlipYrWhig: Jesus.
SiubhanDuinne
@dogwood:
Thanks. Yes, this. I get all those outrageous statements from all those outrageous NBC types all mixed up in my head.
KithKanan
@TenguPhule: American.
Kropadope
@(((CassandraLeo))): I’m sorry, I can’t quite follow your response.
TenguPhule
@dogwood: I’m half-convinced that the New Labor branch are in Putin’s pocket. Nobody could possibly be that stupid by accident.
Kathleen
@efgoldman: Remember when he was one of Rappin’ Karl Rove’s back up dancers at one of the Nerd Proms?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdvHwtRdg_I
hovercraft
I was off line all afternoon, so I just saw this poll. And this is before the events of the last couple of days.
THE ONLY NUMBERS THAT MATTER IN THAT NEW TRUMP POLL
A new poll from Quinnipiac University shows Trump’s disapproval rating rising to 58 percent — a new high in Quinnipiac’s regular polling and the highest in a high-quality, non-tracking poll since his inauguration. Just 36 percent approved of Trump’s job performance….
The Quinnipiac poll also shows the president’s favorable rating — more of a personal measure than a job measure — dropping to a new low of 35 percent. The percentage of Americans who strongly approve of him is tied for an all-time low at 25 percent. And the percentage who strongly disapprove has reached an all-time high of 51 percent….
Who’s become disillusioned?
Interestingly, the reason the numbers have ticked down appears to be the group that elected Trump in the first place: white, working-class voters. Whites without college degrees approved of Trump 57 percent to 38 percent in the mid-April Q poll and 51-39 percent in late March/early May; today they are split, with 47 percent approving and 46 percent disapproving.
However:
Republicans still haven’t deserted him….
And that’s all you need to know. According to the poll, 82% of Republicans still approve of Trump’s job performance — 63% of them “strongly”. And 82% have a favorable opinion of Trump. Among Republicans, 85% think his first hundred days were a success; 85% think he’s keeping his campaign promises; 83% say he cares about average Americans.………
What this means is that, for the foreseeable future, you can forget about the Republican Congress approving a special counsel to investigate Russiagate, and you shouldn’t expect much from the Senate investigation. Impeachment? Totally off the table, unless Trump’s numbers among Republicans drop a lot.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Kropadope: If someone spends the entire general election trashing the Democratic candidate, they are not a loyal Democrat. If someone does not actually vote for the Democrat, they are not a loyal Democrat. There are plenty of faux-leftist purity ponies who are guilty of both. It is, of course, entirely possible to be a leftist and still be a loyal Democrat. If you consistently work within the party both trying to get Democrats elected and trying to pull them to the left, then you’re not a purity pony. However, there are countless supposed “leftists” who spend their time doing things that are completely counterproductive to actual leftist goals. The distinction should be pretty easy to make.
TenguPhule
@KithKanan: How did it not fall apart after one step? Was it petrified after being left for a year outside to dry?
Kathleen
@jl: They all look alike. Same coiffed hosts, same pasty Republican guests.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@zhena gogolia:
From the newly out and proud latino Markos Moulitsas:
Like I said upthread, they can ally with lifelong liberal Democrats and join us as allies, or stay stuck sniffing Wilmer’s crusty old man jock and remain irrelevant and smug, because the Democratic party has a bright future without them or their increasingly irrelevant all talk fraud and his grifting wife.
bupalos
@Baud: Actually a lot of us* just keep quiet because the violent moderates that see “wilmer” lurking in their wheaties in the morning have become the real purity brigade.
*someone who voted Sanders in the primary to push Clinton left (which worked, btw), then fervently wished he’d stfu and go away when he was supposed to (that part didn’t.)
different-church-lady
@lamh36: “They’ll see everything! They’ll see the big board!“
SiubhanDuinne
@dm:
Unlike the reception given EdSec Betsy DeVos today at the Bethune-Cookman convocation, during which she was repeatedly, loudly, and heartily booed by the graduating students. When the College President warned them that they’d be kicked out and their diplomas mailed to them if they didn’t stop — they dialled it up.
Good for them. The kids are all right.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: I half-wiped a party one time on their way to the briefing. I’ve had the Computer (PBUH) kill off a clone before anybody even said anything.
KithKanan
@TenguPhule: Some kind of mysterious energy field from the magic artifact embedded in it, from what I can remember. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Another Scott
In other news… Reuters: Trump White House give press credentials to guy who pushed Macron “hack”:
Why doesn’t Donnie just give the Слу́жба вне́шней разве́дки an office in the West Wing? “Cut out the middleman!”
(sigh)
Cheers,
Scott.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Kropadope: I may have been in the midst of editing, because I don’t think I followed your response initially either. My point is that I’ve seen a bunch of quotes from Sanders that looked dismissive of “identity politics” or seemed to imply that he doesn’t regard women’s and minority issues as being equal priorities to economic ones. I can’t get on board with that. I’m a committed leftist but I’ve also experienced plenty of forms of marginalisation that aren’t popularly perceived as economic issues, despite the fact that they have profound economic impacts on my life. Pre-existing conditions in insurance, for example, will literally decide whether I am ever able to maintain a self-sufficient existence, because mental health issues are economic issues. (I have several pre-existing conditions, and will almost certainly never be able to pay for insurance if my premiums get jacked up, and without mental health treatment, I probably won’t be able to function enough to earn an income at all.) But there are a bunch of people who would dismiss those as “identity politics”. Minority and gender issues often get dismissed as those as well.
If Sanders has stopped his “class above all else” analysis, then my primary annoyance with his recent actions is mitigated somewhat. But you can’t extricate them. Marginalisation works on several different levels and one of them is economic. One of them is always economic. A class analysis that doesn’t work in the effects of bigotry and prejudice is lacking.
Kathleen
@SiubhanDuinne: Yes. I was incorrect. Like FTNYT I had no correct context. Here are Chuckles’ actual upchucks:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/chuck-todd-it-s-not-media-s-job-to-correct-gop-s-obamacare-falsehoods-video
Kropadope
@(((CassandraLeo))):
Yeah, well, the last time I voted for a non-Democrat was in 2004, yet I still get treated like I’m a person such as you describe above. That’s because too many people here have a blind spot as to their own purist demands and the harm those might cause. I’m pushing for that latter sort of purity to be at least recognized.
Care to provide an example?
germy
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
different-church-lady
@trollhattan: Second prize is a set of steak knives.
SiubhanDuinne
@Baud:
Then you are my candidate, and so say all of us!
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Meanwhile, here in the People’s Democratic Socialist Kenyan Shariah Republic of Louisville, my friend Dan Canon (of Obergefell fame) has this to say:
dm
@(((CassandraLeo))): In fairness to Kropadope, I didn’t understand what you wrote to mean this, either, though I suspected, from the general context of your message, that this is what you meant. Put the way you’ve revised it, it’s pretty much how I feel.
I keep pointing to the Netherlands and, to a lesser degree, France. They still have powerful alt-right movements even though they’ve already put into place many of the economic solutions embraced by people like Sanders. It can’t just be economics, there’s more to it.
I’m generally pro-junior Senator from Vermont, and think he’s bringing folks nearer to the party who I hope will then hear Kemala Harris, Cory Booker, Elizabeth Warren, or any of a whole host of other Democrats and like what they hear. Yeah, yeah, he’s the post that a lot of purity ponies hitch their halters to, as well. I think even some of those will eventually grow up (even the 60-year-olds among them).
jl pointed to the recent polls with Sanders being very popular across the country. Part of that is that he’s saying things people want to hear, part of that is people hearing what they want — sort of the mirror image of some folks here. The fact that he doesn’t actually have to govern helps this popularity a lot.
Felanius Kootea
OT: In the Senate, I hear Lindsey Graham, Collins and McCain joined the Dems to prevent the repeal of one of Obama’s methane gas emissions rules related to climate change. Pence was there to break ties but there were too many Republican defections. Pleasantly surprised.
SiubhanDuinne
@TenguPhule:
I’ll see your “I just can’t” and raise you an “I just can’t even.”
Corner Stone
He thinks it’s a badge of honor, of course,
Patricia Kayden
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Why does anyone care what Tom Brokaw thinks about anything? He read the news and wrote a book. Shrug.
TenguPhule
@KithKanan: Armor class 10? Because the stuff basically melts on contact at room temperature.
/Which makes it so enjoyable to eat
Jim, Foolish Literalist
remember your shrieky, booze-fueled “If I can’t have Bernie, let it all burn!” GBCW tantrum (after which you keep forgetting to go away), and your subsequent driveling about how I drove you to a piece of desperate :performance art” (or something?) because I was mean to you on the comment section of a blog? at least that’s as much as I’ve been able to glean from your spittle-flecked rantings
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Kropadope: Without further context, I don’t see evidence of any cases of this sort of purity, at least in this thread. I see people attacking Wilmer because they disagree with his politics or because he’s making attacks on Democrats that they don’t feel are justified. There’s a big difference between doing that and constantly tearing down the party’s nominee or refusing to vote for them. If people would flat-out refuse to vote for him if he were the Democratic nominee, that would be one thing, but this just looks like a Beltway media-style “both sides” argument, just aimed at critics of Wilmer instead.
different-church-lady
@efgoldman:
Well, there’s six people who will never vote for him.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: I’ve had players wipe each other out on the way to the briefing with no intervention needed from the GM. Those tended to be the funniest sessions.
SiubhanDuinne
@Aleta:
“Our long national nightmare is over.”
The first time, tragedy. The second time, farce.
Major Major Major Major
@dm: he’s also never ever been the target of a guns-blazing oppo campaign, which would fix those numbers in a jiffy.
@(((CassandraLeo))): last I looked he was still doing the “all struggle is class struggle” thing.
lamh36
Roger Moore
@TenguPhule:
It’s not clear the extent to which he does have the base. The problem Labour is having is that most of their voters aren’t party members. Party membership is limited to people willing to pay dues. Corbyn was able to win by motivating a lot more people to jump that hurdle and actually get involved, but still only a small fraction of their voters are party members. It’s kind of like the caucuses here in the US; it rewards candidates who have highly motivated supporters even if those supporters aren’t representative of the party as a whole.
efgoldman
@Cacti:
Not only not, but the losses have been landslides
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Kropadope: Here’s an example from November. The idea that any Democrat is simply satisfied with “I’m a woman; vote for me” is an absurd straw man and the remainder of his comments weren’t particularly better. His “Leave Ann Coulter ALOOOOONE!” shtick last month didn’t particularly win much sympathy from me either. I’d find others but I don’t feel like spending that much time googling.
lamh36
@SiubhanDuinne: Yes!!! I’m very proud of those graduates!
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@Kropadope:
Why would anyone be mad at Sanders?
germy
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: one time I was doing a sandbox DnD campaign with a communist DM. We spent levels 1-4 or so among a loose confederation of mercantilist cities. They kept squandering every boon and resenting the help we gave after they begged us and paid for it. Finally we got so mad that the sorcerer started razing one to the ground…
TenguPhule
@Roger Moore:
Which was not helped by the party heads trying to change rules in midstream as to how party members were defined.
sanjeevas
@dogwood: I’m convinced Corbyn is a Russian plant. Corbyn’s director of strategy and main advisor is Seamus Milne. Milne for years has been a shameless apologist for Putin (see has Guardian articles).
different-church-lady
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
So, #1 it is!
Kropadope
@(((CassandraLeo))):
Well, how about the context that bleating about “Wilmer” is a daily feature here and these supposed attacks he’s making on Democrats are always overwrought, unfair interpretations of what he said. That is if anyone deigns to provide a quote at all.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:Leaving aside the fact that when I was doing that I was saying I wouldn’t support Bernie either; something that seems to be lost on you, much like facts in general; I’m sorry you can’t handle the fact that I was mean to you after months of you being mean to me. What’s good for the goose is totally not good for the gander, I get it. You’re a hypocrite, fine.
Mnemosyne
@dm:
I’ve thought for a while now that many of the new people Sanders attracted were disillusioned Ron Paul fans who saw Sanders as their new Great White Hope (with all the implications that term holds).
NOTE: Since I know some people will immediately fly off the handle after reading that, I’m talking specifically about NEW VOTERS who liked Sanders, not longtime Democrats who preferred him in the primary. Clear?
Given that, his continuing popularity doesn’t surprise me, because I think he appeals to a lot of young conservatives and young Republicans who aren’t willing to go full metal white supremacist, plus he draws people from the left as well.
What worries me is that he may not have a big constituency among Democrats, only among people who hate Democrats but hate the Republican establishment even more. That’s no way to build a stronger party.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: You don’t get access to fireballs until level 5.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@germy:
KithKanan
@TenguPhule: See, this is jogging my memory. It was semi-melted and we had to be extremely careful not to get stuck in it while attacking.
efgoldman
@Kropadope:
Oooh, look. We’ve learned projection from the RWNJs.
You Wilmerbots just live to derail threads where the grownups are talking, don’t you.
Political seven year olds.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Chris Hayes goes from giving air time to Mo Brooks, to split screen of Bill Kristol and Jennifer Rubin. Bill Fucking Kristol.
sanjeevas
Sergei Lavrov in Washington today:
It must be, he said, “humiliating for the American people to realise that the Russian Federation is controlling the situation in America”.
different-church-lady
@(((CassandraLeo))):
He believes all issues are economic issues, and that if economic disparity is solved, all the social issues follow suit.
In other words, his cart and his horse are in a non-functional order.
Kropadope
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
In case it wasn’t clear.
germy
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: See:
https://balloon-juice.com/2017/05/10/wednesday-evening-open-thread-even-nostalgia-aint-what-it-used-to-be/#comment-6372353
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: flaming sphere, scorching ray, grease+torch…
ET
Because of course Kissinger would show up. I guess he was hoping for one more moment in the sun.
dm
@Major Major Major Major:
Oh hell yes. Every time I read someone writing “Bernie would have won”, I just roll my eyes. (I live in such a bubble that I never actually hear anyone say that.)
@(((CassandraLeo))): I’m old enough to remember the ACLU defending the Nazis who wanted to march in largely-Jewish-suburb Skokie, and Nat Hentoff’s First-Amendment absolutism, so I have a smidgen of sympathy with the “let Ann Coulter speak”. The proper response to hate-speech is more speech, and all that. That said, I enjoyed the video of whosits-Spencer-the-Nazi getting sucker-punched, and occasionally think a punch-in-the-nose is what some hateful people deserve.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kropadope: were you mean to me? I didn’t notice. I thought had an embarrassing meltdown that I was reminding you of just so you could figure out why no one here takes you seriously. You were mean to me? Huh. Anyway, I forgive you. Now I suggest you drink a large quantity of cool water and go lie down for a while.
Roger Moore
@TenguPhule:
The same way every other golem doesn’t fall apart: magic.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
And what was my most personally held issue? Abortion rights.
If we’re going to rehash last week, let’s discuss this: your refusal to vote for John Kerry lengthened the Iraq War and led to the mess we’re in today.
If Kerry had won over Bush, the US would have been able to bow out of Iraq much more quickly. But because Kerry lost, Bush had an extra 4 years to break shit beyond repair.
So being a purity pony and refusing to vote for Kerry actually killed far more brown people than if you’d sucked it up and voted for him, Mr. Sanctimony.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@bupalos:
On Confirmation of Rod Rosenstein to be Deputy Attorney General
Wilmer – Yea
Warren – Nay
(link)
Heck of a job,
BrownieBerniedifferent-church-lady
@Kropadope: Who’s Wilmer?
efgoldman
@SiubhanDuinne:
And when they stopped hooting, they stood up and turned their backs. Good for them!
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: Ah, nice! Inventive.
tobie
@Another Scott: That’s a swell way to make friends. Donnie’s managed to alienate Germany, France, North Korea, Canada and Mexico in his first hundred days. Did I miss any other important trading partner? Heckuva job, asshole.
Major Major Major Major
@dm: I’m fine with the “let Coulter speak” sentiment, but he volunteered the opinion, he wasn’t asked, it’s annoying that he can slag people for ignoring the real issues while he himself, during a speech slagging people for ignoring the real issues, is talking about Ann fucking Coulter.
Kropadope
@efgoldman:
sorry, I didn’t think that endless infantile name calling and bullshit artistry were adult talk? Maybe when you’re done nursing your petty grievances, you’ll be ready to have an actual conversation with someone like Cassandra is doing. Talk about projection…
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: grease is one of the most useful first level spells!
JMG
@hovercraft: Steve M. is a good and insightful writer who’s also a stone pessimist. Believe me, if come May 2018 the Q poll ballot has Democrats up by 16 points, they’ll be in the mood to abandon Trump. Steve forgets that self-identified Republicans are less than 30 percent in most surveys (Democrats don’t do much better. People like to think of themselves as independent, so they say that. But Trump got killed among independents in that poll. Some of them are really Republicans who don’t like to say so).
Baud
@dm:
I’m less optimistic than you that he’s a net plus.
TenguPhule
@KithKanan: So like fighting an edible gelatinous cube. With limbs.
germy
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
But wait a minute… according to this letter to the NewYorker editor:
lamh36
James Comey is a punk ass bitch…not sad to see him go, but if he lets Trump slap him across his face and make him look like more than just an incompetent fool, then he’s more of a punk ass bitch than I already thought.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: Floor wax and dessert topping!
TenguPhule
@Roger Moore: Okay, I admit I walked into that one.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
oh fer fuck sake
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: haha, so you did.
@TenguPhule: if you could have any cantrip in real life what would it be? I’d pick prestidigitation.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@Kropadope: it’s not worth damaging your credibility by playing dumb. Sanders brought these people in, cried havoc and let slip the dogs of war. He’s responsible. He can’t go around saying, I didn’t pull the trigger when my very close hand picked surrogates attacked Clinton in support of Trump.
you would be better off moving on to warren, who is far smarter, supports the same polices, but without the baggage.
Plus, Sanders will never be elected because he won’t release his tax returns and the FBI cloud over his wife’s tenure at Burlington college.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Major Major Major Major:
His default utterances – his most comfortable spontaneous off script off speech remarks – are sympathetic to his precious white working class’s sensibilities. Jane the Grifter accused critics of his tone-deafness as too politically correct. He should just go be an Independent third party candidate and appeal to them on his own fucking dime. I’m sure Jane and Tad the Putinist figured out a way to siphon millions out of the campaign through Old Towne Media.
efgoldman
@Kropadope:
Has he repudiated any of them, at the time or since?
Gin & Tonic
@different-church-lady: The junior senator from VT.
JPL
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: but Hillary had emails.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: Locate Object
efgoldman
@Mnemosyne:
And the vaginal probe guy that Wilmer endorsed, lost. Badly.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@efgoldman: Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha…. etc.
Shalimar
@jl: I agree that the Bernie hatred here is over the top at times. He could brush his teeth and people would complain about how he holds the brush. That said, the Hillary-blaming, I-told-you-so bullshit from Bernie bros was so intense after the election that I’m not going to bother defending Bernie now. Too bad for him he has such asshole followers.
ms_canadada
Who is that gremlin with Hair Drumpf?
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: that’s level 2 in my reference, but my reference is 3.5ed.
geg6
@Kropadope:
Wah, wah, wah. If the party had to count on people like you to get things done, it would go the way of the Whigs. What a fucking cry baby.
Lotsa people like me are the backbone of the party. We decide to go on strike, there is no party. The only time we see holier than thou lefties who love to tell us we aren’t the base doing any of the hard work is…well, I have yet to see them doing any. Fuck off, asshole.
schrodingers_cat
@Major Major Major Major: OMG it is 2017 not 1917.
In other news, I tried my new ice cream machine yesterday. I made fresh strawberry ice cream it was awesome, if I may say so myself.
efgoldman
@Kropadope:
Cassandra’s not saying anything that I and many others said as long as a year ago. You didn’t listen then, you don’t listen now, so what’s the fucking point?
And that was before i found out that you were too pure to vote for Kerry.
You know, when a whole fucking blog yells at you every time you show up, it’s just possible that YOU are the one who’s wrong.
And especially when it’s women who are yelling. (and no I’m not a woman, but I have a wife, a daughter, and a granddaughter)
Roger Moore
@TenguPhule:
Sure. But the point still stands: their party is not necessarily representative of the voters because most voters aren’t party members. I suspect that neither the old guard nor the Corbyn supporters are really representative. That said, if/when Labour gets wiped out in the upcoming election, it should be taken as a solid piece of evidence that Corbyn’s program is less popular than he thinks.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@Shalimar: The problem is Sanders goes around holding himself out as an arbiter of purity. Then he attacks Ossoff, while supporting a guy who wants to turn women into handmaidens. Then his wife attacks people who support fundamental reproduction rights as “political correctness”.
If he would just lay off the self-righteous, sanctimony and the superiority complex he wouldn’t be so repulsive.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Shalimar:
Except it would be a borrowed toothbrush in a house he was a guest in where he leaves the water running while scolding you that his way to brush is the only way, then complaining about the accommodations.
He has asshole followers because he’s an asshole.
Shalimar
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: I don’t know about Bernie and Jane, but Tad Devine made a fortune from that campaign if it was run the traditional way. For all their claims to be revolutionary, their spending of the vast amount of money they raised was almost entirely on television ads. Which Devine would have gotten a percentage of, every single ad buy.
Steve in the ATL
@zhena gogolia:
I had the exact same reaction!
@jl:
No, it’s thoroughly hinged. Our political system is set up for two parties, so we have to work within that framework. There is one party that is pure evil, and one that tries to help Americans. One of these two is much better than the other, and yet Wilmer keeps attacking the better party. He is doing more harm than good. We are facing an existential threat, but he keeps shitting on Democrats. He needs to STFU.
geg6
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
This.
TenguPhule
Oh come on?! This is just getting fucking ridiculous!
It is now a firing offense if a police officer DOESN’T SHOOT THE BLACK PERSON.
This nation is fucked.
ETA: He’s also a former marine who saw combat in Afghanistan. So, someone who’d have some basis for judging threat level.
Another Scott
@ms_canadada: A retired Bilbo Baggins impersonator.
Or Henry Kissinger.
One or the other, I think.
Cheers,
Scott.
Major Major Major Major
@Shalimar: Devine got lucky with that arrangement. It was a payment plan set up and designed for a small campaign, and when it exploded…
different-church-lady
@Gin & Tonic: I know that.
amk
can always trust a twitler’s thread to be derailed by dems vs bs fight.
SiubhanDuinne
@TenguPhule:
WHUT
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: Level 1 cantrip? Sleep.
Ian
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
I too, thought that these things would disqualify any candidate before Nov 8. I was wrong.
Kropadope
@(((CassandraLeo))):
In fairness, while not articulated in ideal fashion, that was a direct response to a question that addresses just that issue:
Yes, being the second Latina Senator is a worthy goal; but he argued, again as you did, that Democrats (and people broadly) won’t be satisfied with that. so it’s better to say “this is what I want to do” rather than “what I want to be.” He suggested she add something, the identiy portion can’t be the whole appeal. “I want to be the Second Latina Senator and I want to do X” the X part is going to be a huge part of whether she garners support for her run or not.
Wasn’t it a major stumbling block in Ted Kennedy’s presidential aspirations when he couldn’t say why he wanted to be President.
Allowing people you don’t agree with the opportunity to speak is one of our most prized values here in America, purportedly. People should also be free to be out there, protesting her as loudly as they want. But whatever was said that made it a security concern is likely out of bounds. Trying to chill speech is harmful.
I remember a story about Theodore Roosevelt, where the KKK was fighting for an opportunity to protest while Roosevelt was governor of NY. Roosevelt let them protests but put ever black and Jewish cop on duty. I like the idea of allowing speech you don’t agree with, while finding appropriate ways to undermine that speech. Let’s not, instead, make Ann Coulter a martyr (any moreso than any and every white Christian is a martyr in the wingnut imagination).
@different-church-lady: You’re hilarious. I’ve missed you.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
nah, it’s cool, because after he shits in the Dem pool, he remembers to point out that trump is bad, also, too
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: cantrips are level zero.
SiubhanDuinne
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
And still wakes up every morning with velveteen teeth.
Shalimar
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: I was a Sanders supporter to begin with. I never will be again because of the double disaster of the destructive way his campaign handled the last 2-3 months before the convention and then the way he abandoned the party and switched back to independent after the election. Fuck Bernie Sanders, self-centered asshole.
But, I really don’t see anything wrong with most of his actions since the election that people nit-pick him about. Bernie is continuing to posture so he can build his brand, but he has been on the right side in the Trump opposition on all the things that have actually mattered. I don’t dislike him as much as I dislike Jane.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
Chris
@germy:
Jesus fucking Christ. Even Elizabeth Warren is a neoliberal. ELIZABETH. FUCKING. WARREN. These people are fucking insane. They won’t be happy until they’ve burned the entire party to a crisp.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: They changed the rules since 2e then. I dropped out after 3e. Cantrips were originally level 1.
SiubhanDuinne
What does it say about me that every time a comment says “cantrip,” I see “catnip”?
Nothing good, I’ll be bound.
dm
@Mnemosyne:
Could be — Sanders’ victory in the West VIrginia primary might be partly due to that, for example. However, see below.
What kind-of worries me is that he does have a big constituency among Democrats — one of those polls that jl alluded to also have him popular among Democrats, women, Blacks and Latinos who were polled. This worries me because I think he would be a pretty weak candidate in the general. Like Clinton, he’d do well in the NPR Archipelago, but poorly elsewhere and we’d be stuck with another Electoral College defeat.
Here we go, cross-tabs of the Harvard-Harris Poll for April (pdf), critical line is on p. 30 — Sanders’ approval rates:
80% – Democrats
57% – Independents
29% – Republicans
68% – Hispanics
73% – Black
52% – White
82% – Clinton voters
28% – Trump voters
66% – Third party voters
58% – Women
55% – Men
popularity goes from 60% (18-34) down to 51% (65+)
68% – Urban
54% – Suburban
48% – Rural
60% – college grads
55% – some college or less
56% – top ~20% of income (>=$75K)
58% – bottom ~80% of income (< $75K)
~2000 respondents, so some of the tabs (Hispanic, Black) have pretty large margin of error, since there are only about 200 people in those categories.
Now, you can't read psychology into a poll like this, but I'm going to do so, anyway, and say I don't think your fear is borne out by these numbers.
NobodySpecial
Man, Reagan Democrats are annoying, even thirty years after they tried to break liberalism.
germy
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:
TenguPhule
@SiubhanDuinne: Don’t look at me, I’ve given up trying to make sense of this crazy new world.
Kropadope
@efgoldman:
No, not whenever I show up. I get plenty of positive interactions in here. It’s only when I tell you I don’t like your hobbyhorse that a hardened group of maybe a dozen people get all bent out of shape. I’m sorry you don’t notice me if I’m not posting about a subject where you have obsessive rage-filled pathologies, but that doesn’t mean those other posts don’t exist.
TenguPhule
@SiubhanDuinne:
That you probably own a cat.
Lyrebird
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Props for your very evocatively written comment!
I’ll admit I was puzzled by “newly” here though…
, but maybe I misunderstood.
Not so important. Just resonating with this:
@Kropadope: …thank you for that great TR story!
Gin & Tonic
@different-church-lady: Sorry, I had a bad day and am humor-impaired until the alcohol kicks in.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: yeah, 3e was a major overhaul, then there was 3.5 which fixed a lot of the problems with 3 but kept the rest. Pathfinder is an independent d20 that’s basically “dnd 3.9”. 4e and 5e were total overhauls again. I don’t care for them as much, though they’re considerably easier to play.
ETA: 3.5 spell list http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm
Baud
@NobodySpecial: Reagan Democrats are either Republican or dead.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@jl:
His supporters sure are a bunch of snowflakes.
I never saw Obama wilt over the birther claims. I never saw Clinton wilt when her husband’s cheating became public.
Toughen up, kids.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
They spiked the difficultly level for taking out major demons, devils and dragons and other big bad monsters
I’ve read some of the new stats, talk about power creep.
Ruviana
@SiubhanDuinne: Lol, I was going to go through the comments to check when I saw yours. Looked like “catnip” to me too.
dm
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
There were only six nays, so “heckova job, Democrats” (he was approved 94-6). The nays make interesting reading:
Blumenthal (CT), Booker( NJ), Cortez-Masto (NV), Gillibrand (NY), Harris (CA), Warren (MA)
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: In that case I’ll select Mage Hand.
Shalimar
@Major Major Major Major: I am old enough to remember getting the issue of Dragon where Gygax introduced cantrips when it first came out. It was the one with the Exonidas Spaceport module for Traveller in it, which immediately led me to buy all the Traveller material I could find. Which was not a lot in 1982.
TenguPhule
@Baud: Preferably both.
efgoldman
@dm:
Three+ years before the next election, and five months since the last one. it’s almost all name recognition. Might as well be “generic Democrat”… which he isn’t.
smintheus
Reuters is now reporting that Trump fired Comey because Comey refused to brief him in advance about his latest Senate testimony and because Trump feared Comey would not be loyal to him personally. It had nothing to do with Clinton’s emails.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
no context for this, but this is a US Congressman speaking, per the reporter
Jemmy Madison, we knew you pretty good, for a while
ETA: He’s a smooth political operator, this guy
efgoldman
@Gin & Tonic:
First PT session?
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: yeah I meant easier in the day to day as a player. Bundled skills, simplified ability progressions. “Encounter/daily” use powers.
Gosh, in a game where there are stats for becoming a god? I honestly don’t know what you mean.
FlipYrWhig
@dm: But “approval” is such a nebulous thing. He’s kind of a rumpled lefty mascot, and the less you pay attention to the details, the more he becomes “that funny fiery guy who was always holding rallies in front of cheering crowds.” What’s not to approve? I think he’s a dick and have said so freely and even gleefully but if you polled me, _even me_, I’d be a lot closer to Approve than Disapprove.
Omnes Omnibus
@smintheus: Well, no shit.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Lyrebird:
Markos:
If we agree on the issues, why are so many on the left fighting each other?
TenguPhule
@smintheus:
Attempted witness tampering much?
efgoldman
@smintheus:
Well, duh! Hardly a world-exploding revelation.
Major Major Major Major
@Shalimar: somebody fed a bunch of spell names into a Markov generator and got some funny output. Hold Mouse and Gland Swarm were two.
Baud
@smintheus:
Kevin Drum has a rundown
http://m.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/05/white-house-story-comey-just-gets-worse-and-worse
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@Ian: you should know the media has a double standard when it comes to covering Democrats.
The Bush WH “lost” 22,000,000 emails and set up private email servers and never received an once of scrutiny.
Gin & Tonic
@efgoldman: Not the first, but today’s was … special.
I’ve concluded that even if your torturer is an attractive, lissome young blonde who smiles a lot, in the end it is still torture.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@Baud: thanks.
I don’t why I always forget, but I should read Drum on a regular basis.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
Hey now, the Gods were nerfed at 2e with needed prayer badly and only avatars could be actually fought and beaten.
Tiamat went from major threat to “Hah hah, you lose” upon full summoning to the Material plane in 5e.
MCA1
@tobie: I assume you meant South Korea rather than North, but wanted to add Australia to the list.
Baud
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: I don’t always agree with him, but I like him. I think he shoots straight and doesn’t get overworked in his rhetoric.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: that’s weird, I swear I remember, way back in the Bush years, Markos defending himself from people who said he was trying to hide his Latin heritage by calling himself “Kos”. IIRC it was his nickname in the army.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: just because it’s there doesn’t mean you have to fight it. I’ve certainly never encountered the Tarrasque.
germy
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
And I don’t remember endless hearings when ambassadors were killed during his administration.
Do the villagers care they’re always being played by the GOP?
smintheus
@efgoldman: Reread the part that is news.
@TenguPhule: Sure seems like Comey thought he was either going to be brow-beat, or prohibited from testifying, or fired before he got a chance to.
dm
@efgoldman:
Heath Mello was one of the examples of faux-controversies that I suspected of being deliberate rat-fucking. I didn’t bring it up earlier since I thought it would be too contentious.
The “vaginal probe” story started in the Wall Street Journal. From there, the rumor mill took off.
Chasing it down, we found out that it was a compromise bill (“you should offer an ultrasound”) meant to head off one of those vaginal probe bills, and that Mello claims to be just another pro-lifer of the Tim Kaine variety (between a woman and her conscience).
Mnemosyne — is this a fair summary of (my half, admittedly) the discussion we had the other night?
Not going to defend Jane Sanders comments though (on the other hand, I haven’t chased them down — who knows what she really said before the rumor mill got ahold of it).
Steve in the ATL
@SiubhanDuinne: there’s a lot of talk here tonight that I do not understand at all. I may start talking about my golf game.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: apparently, it’s something they’ve been kicking around in the House GOP caucus
that’s Leader as in House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy, once in line to succeed Boehner, and generally acknowledged to be dumber than a box of hair.
lamh36
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Maybe it that KOS has come to the point where he felt the need to no longer be the “latino best friend” that some folks on the progressive side liked to use as a defense for saying stupid shit… i.e. “if you have an issue with what I said…why doesn’t KOS…I mean he of all people would said something..”
Seems KOS felt the need to,in no uncertain terms, put that type of KOS-ite on notice
Steve in the ATL
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
I was once a loyal Drum reader, but gave up after too many squishy navel-gazing whine fests. Maybe he’s gotten good again, like Slate and possibly even Salon.
Lyrebird
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Thank you!! (For the pointer and for taking my clumsy q in the right way) I’ve gone to his site for years for Latino polling results, and obvs I do not follow things closely enough. Glad to get to read that.
Major Major Major Major
@dm:
Ok, I have a question. When I was growing up that was the default Dem position more or less, you wouldn’t find people willing to go to the mats about being pro-abortion, just that the state should be minimally involved and whatnot. Libertarian essentially–a moral objection is not a reason for policy.
Now it seems like that counts as an evil pro-life forced birther position, at least in places like lefty twitter. I remember how Kaine was treated. Is this an issue that has changed, or does my growing up just coincide with my moving from Denver to the Bay Area (and therefore a changed cohort)?
efgoldman
@Gin & Tonic:
Yeah, in the rehab after my stroke, both the principal physical therapist and principal occupational therapists were quite attractive. Always a pleasure to see them – until we went to work.
Had to be done, though.
SiubhanDuinne
@TenguPhule:
It was a generic WHUT.
Mnemosyne
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Holy fucking shit. I knew things had gotten bad at Daily Kos, but I didn’t know they were that bad.
I still feel like Democrats desperately need to come to terms with the fact that, wittingly or not, Sanders allowed a lot of white “progressives” to air their inner racists and misogynists, and there are still a lot of hurt feelings and mistrust because of that.
It can’t be hand-waved away with But he was in the SDS in college! or But his stated position on abortion is to the left of Hillary’s! Some of his supporters saw something in him and his campaign that empowered them to be racist and misogynist. I don’t know what it was, but he needs to shut that shit down, hard.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Kropadope: I find it rather strange that he jumped straight to assuming that her only motivation for running was to be the second Latina senator or whatever. I certainly agree that a candidate for office needs a political vision, but really, who’s actually arguing that a candidate doesn’t need one, or that the only criterion for electing a candidate should be identity issues? I don’t see anyone seriously articulating that argument, apart from obvious bad faith actors like Julian Assange (who claimed in all apparent seriousness that Clinton and Le Pen’s losses were due to patriarchy. Yes. The same Assange who spent the entire election cycle attacking Clinton).
I mean, if he’d just left it at, “Make sure you have a vision for office”, then fine. But he didn’t. This appears to be part of his response as well:
…Whom in the Democratic Party actually believes the position he’s arguing against, though? I have never seen a liberal or leftist say that getting minority and women CEOs would actually solve the problems of unregulated capitalism. I will acknowledge that there may be some people who can be seen to be making those arguments, like Sheryl Sandberg, but does anyone take them as Democrats, or as liberals or leftists? ’Cause to me, anyone who excludes economic marginalisation from their political analysis isn’t on the left.
And, again, I object to the very existence of “identity politics”. There is no such thing. The idea that identity issues can be extricated from economics is baseless. Even if Sanders recognises the connection, he shouldn’t even be accepting the framing that the concepts can be separated.
And like other posters here, I wouldn’t have as much of an issue with the Coulter thing if it had been a response to a question or something along those lines. I’m not a free speech absolutist, but I don’t really have a significant quarrel with those who are, and indeed, I’ve given plenty of money to the ACLU, who are about as close to free speech absolutists as can be found in this country (at least amongst major activist groups). The fact that he felt it was important enough to bring up in and of itself, though, speaks to his priorities.
That TR story is cool, though.
Note: My ISP is being a bit unreliable, so if further responses are delayed, apologies (it’s also part of why this one took awhile). I don’t have the patience to write this much text on my phone. I also may be in and out for the next hour or two.
smintheus
@Baud: That is a good run down, thanks.
Baud
@dm: Awful lot of corrections at he bottom of that article (although it least it’s there).
dm
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
Here we have another example of what I was talking about. He didn’t “attack Ossoff” (in fact, he endorsed him), when asked if he knew whether Ossoff was a “progressive” or not, he admitted he didn’t know: “Some Democrats are progressive, some aren’t”.
Meanwhile, the Republicans had been running ads in the election accusing Ossoff of being “a Sanders-style progressive”. I’m sure Sanders’ saying, “Sure, he’s a progressive with a red capital P!” would have helped heaps. FIve bernie-bros would have sent money and fifty GA-06 volunteers would have gone home.
Meanwhile, Sanders said (in a different context): “You can’t expect to run the same candidate in Mississippi as you do in San Francisco — to think otherwise is silly”.
But, congratulations! You’ve been ratfucked. I hope they gave you a reach-around, at least.
Gin & Tonic
A study in contrasts from today. Here is Trump meeting with Russia’s Foreign Minister. Here he is with Ukraine’s Foreign Minister.
SiubhanDuinne
@TenguPhule:
Have done in the past, will again in the future.
=^..^=
Major Major Major Major
@Steve in the ATL: I’ll try Salon again when their site stops crashing my browser. I like Drum.
efgoldman
@Steve in the ATL:
That, and people let trolls derail comment threads even worse than here.
Baud
@dm: I thought he endorsed Ossoff after the criticism.
SiubhanDuinne
@Major Major Major Major:
Google translate sucks donkey’s eggs. Absolutely useless.
Baud
@efgoldman: I almost never read the comments there.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@dm: you people don’t get. either you’re blind on this issue or you lack self awareness.
Let me spell it out to you people. When some like Sanders runs as the arbiter of purity, then he can’t fail to meet the standards he calls for, especially when he jumps at ever opportunity to bashes others who fail to clear his bar.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Major Major Major Major: a lot of pro-choice activists hate Bill Clinton’s “safe, legal and rare” formulation, because it implies there’s something wrong with abortion, but it’s a phrasing that gives a permission structure (to borrow a phrase I gather Obama likes) for voting Democrat to people like my (Catholic) mother and her sisters, who aren’t rabidly pro-life but aren’t quite comfortable with abortion, and are otherwise broadly sympathetic to Dems
Mnemosyne
@dm:
Like FlipYrWhig said, I think that at least some of Sanders’ popularity is thanks to his media exposure — other than Obama, he’s probably the most covered liberal politician. But I also worry that his anti-Democratic Party rhetoric is going to hurt us in the long run even if he’s popular in the short run.
Especially since he’s not a Democrat and never will be, which is exactly what a lot of us were saying during the primary, only to be jeered by his more vocal supporters.
bmoak
@tobie:
South Korea and Australia, too.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: he did, he pretty much had to be corralled into it, but contrari-troll is determined offer labored, semi-honest defenses of Wilmer. It seems to be a hobby.
dm
@Chris: Well, she did find Obama’s $400,000 speaking fee “troubling”. I understand that makes her a phony.
TenguPhule
@Baud: You Lie!
/snark
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Baud:
Yes, his “I don’t know if he’s a progressive” was the day of the election, and his grudging endorsement came later, when the Mello thing came up, because supporting a forced birther mayor from Omaha was good for his “brand”, but harmful to the Democratic party, and irrelevant to the Resistance a/k/a the country. Remind you of anyone else?
Chet Murthy
@(((CassandraLeo))):
I continue to believe that people who ascribe beliefs to Lord Smallgloves are making a mistake. He doesn’t have beliefs, but rather, goals. Things he wants to happen, and things he wants to prevent from happening. Everything else he says or does is in service of those goals. Now, he may be {effective,disciplined,careful,whatever} or not, in working towards those goals. But that’s all he has.
Everything else in his universe, is a tool to get to those goals. There are no morals, no beliefs, no honor, nothing sacred, no friendships, no alliances, no enemies. Only those goals.
So what did he want? To be respected. To kick Obama (who didn’t respect him). To rub it in the faces of the elites who disrespected him. To stay out of jail. To keep and make more $$.
I think the right way to view him, is as a salesman nearing the end of his quarter, trying to make his quota. That’s all he is.
If it can be arranged so that Dampnut will stave off his indictment by just a little, by throwing Fat Termite/ZEGS under the bus, he’ll do it. He doesn’t give two shits about them. He only cares about himself. I just hope the prosecutors can find a way to give him that rope.
TenguPhule
@SiubhanDuinne: this isn’t even the inside baseball dialect. This is the basic common cant.
schrodingers_cat
@Gin & Tonic: His grin reminds me of a menacing langur.
Chet Murthy
@Baud: War Criminal Kissinger’s argument for treating refugees well is -completely- instrumental. “It helps our war effort”. So yeah, he’s amoral. Right and wrong just don’t concern him.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Chet Murthy: I doubt the shitgibbon has any beliefs either, but to be fair, I wasn’t referring to him in your first quoted excerpt; I was referring to Pence. The only correct way to interpret Trumpovich is as a malignant narcissist.
I do expect that if Mango Malignancy thinks throwing either of them aside is beneficial, he’ll do it without hesitation.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: I don’t even read the comments here.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: Are you John Cole?
Chet Murthy
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Yeah, I know …. Turdblossom-fluffer grows a spine … -now-? Wowsers.
Gin & Tonic
@schrodingers_cat: It’s the Foreign Minister of the largest country in Europe. Motherfucker couldn’t even be bothered to stand up?
Mnemosyne
@dm:
That sound you hear is my palm slapping my forehead. Again. Because, Jesus Christ, Bernie can you STILL not bring yourself to say, He’s a Democrat, and that the important thing? Or Given the way the Republicans are screwing everything up, I’ll take a Democrat every time?
Yes, I remember that this is a several weeks’ old quote about Ossoff, but the reason it drove me nuts is not because he didn’t say that Ossoff was a progressive. It’s because he implied that there were Democrats he would refuse to support for being insufficiently progressive … and then he endorsed a pro-life Democrat.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@dm:
IT’S NOT A FAUX CONTROVERSY TO WOMEN. This “controversy” is over whether women can assume automatic first class citizenship and all that means. Wilmer said this shouldn’t be on his purity test. Who the fuck does he think he is, bargaining away our rights to appease whites/men just like him?
And WTF is wrong with you? Why are you so dismissive? You sound just like Trump supporters with the fake news.
jmw
Reposting, but ProPublica is reporting Congressional statements sortable by state:
https://projects.propublica.org/represent/statements/james-comey
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@dm: I can’t wait until 2020 when you dimwit nihilists line up behind a 79 year old loser hippie and are being cut to bits by the corporate media and the GOP.
And as you desperately look up to the pragmatists and shout, “Save us.”
I’ll whisper, “No.”
FlipYrWhig
@dm:
Come ON. In context the whole two-step was characteristic Bern-shit. Some Democrats are progressive, some aren’t, Ossoff I don’t know about, him I can take or leave, but this Nebraska mayoral candidate saying and doing dicey things on reproductive rights, he’s my kind of guy. Just knock it off, dude. He had an axe to grind because Ossoff is on the technocrat side and technocrats make baby Marx’s beard fall out or something. Because the REAL litmus test of who’s ACTUALLY progressive is always “is he good and mad about something something bank finance corporations?” and the rest of the panoply of liberalisms and progressivisms are just irreducibly complex and who really knows what matters and what doesn’t, man.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: who?
efgoldman
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
He’s an old white guy with a penis. Why should he care what people who ain’t got one think/want/need? They’re only the majority of the population.
Chris
@Mnemosyne:
It’s at least partly WHY he’s getting all the media coverage.
Steve in the ATL
@Mnemosyne: I am aware of no evidence that Mello was pro-life, but plenty that he was anti-abortion. Let’s not use their dishonest framing!
Chet Murthy
@TenguPhule: My prediction is that no American will be murdered by Russian hands. Not. One. B/c the day that happens, the day that even comes -close-, everybody, and I mean -everybody- either bugs out for Moscow, or turn state’s evidence. This is just money&power. Miss Lindsey G. ain’t gonna go dyin’ over this shit. None of them signed up to die over this shit. And I’m sure Vladi’s spymasters are well-aware of this. If they -do- murder an American, it’ll be as part of the ‘rolling up’ of the entire op. And even then, do they really want to set that precendent? That, the next time, America’s intelligence services feel free to assassinate anybody they want in Russia? I doubt it.
jacy
@SiubhanDuinne:
Same for me! I keep reading “catnip,” but I figured that was just some other slang I was not hep to. I feel old.
dogwood
@Mnemosyne:
A lot of Sanders’ general popularity comes from the fact people know little about him. Clinton didn’t dump any oppo reasearch on him or call him names. Republicans kept their powder dry as well. To compare his popularity to Obama’s is absurd and insulting. Obama was the fucking President for eight years. He actually earned his approval rating by doing the job under constant criticism and obstruction. Why would the average American have an unfavorable view of Sanders? He’s never been under fire by the press who love to bring him on to criticize democrats. And elected Democrats aren’t going to say negative things about him because his crew will turn on them.
amk
@dm:
Isn’t “bs is an asset to dems, so don’t screw with him” the argument you are making? Make up your mind, he is either an asset or he is toxic.
dm
@Major Major Major Major:
I remember the treatment Kaine got, too. But I’m not the one arguing Mello was a “vaginal probe candidate”. Go ask one of them.
I was pretty disturbed by that story (why stir up that ant’s nest over a mayoral race?), so I went looking to see if it was true or not. If the Nation story is accurate (but read to the end! as Baud notes, there are a lot of corrections), then it’s not true. The Huffington Post had an article about how Mello claimed to support Planned Parenthood (though he hadn’t visited them to talk about how he could make that support concrete), etc. I think he’s one of those Catholics who realizes that ready access to contraception means fewer abortions, and that is a good thing.
@Baud: He didn’t endorse Ossoff right away, that’s true. It was a few days.
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: Let me tell you the thing you don’t get. You repeat any old rumor. That makes you, and the people you repeat rumors to, vulnerable to ratfucking and Russian trolls.
I perseverate on this because I’m a survivor of the “Al Gore claimed he invented the Internet” wars. I know how those assholes take out-of-context quotes and turn them into fauxtrage. It pisses me off when it’s done to Barack Obama (e.g., “You didn’t build that”/”Clinging to guns and religion”), to Hillary Clinton (“basket of deplorables”) and to Bernie Sanders (“slagged Ossoff/pisses in the tent”).
efgoldman
@dogwood:
Maybe they should. Lance the boil now. The purity ponies will have a shinier object by next year.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@amk: “We are in a moment of national crisis, during which partisan Republicans have abandoned any notion of checks and balances, of Congress exercising its Constitutionally mandated role of exercising oversight on the Executive Branch while Donald Trump holds the Oval Office. This is not a time for labels or litmus tests, this is a time for candidate who are willing to stand up to Donald Trump, to hold him accountable.” That’s not hard. Or shouldn’t be.
But to Wilmer, the defining moral and political issue of our day is $15 vs $12 as a national minimum wage.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@dm:
That is a dog whistle to the Susan Sarandons of the world that Ossoff wasn’t worthy. After he received much well deserved criticism over these remarks he, belatedly endorsed Ossoff. Also, how can the man who wants to “rebuild” the Democratic party not know about this race when even the dimwitted Trump was tweeting about it.
Mnemosyne
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
FWIW, I think dm is arguing in good faith so far. He’s wrong IMO, but he’s not trolling.
(And this is a continuation of previous arguments with him, so I’m basing this on several different discussions.)
Sab
@SiubhanDuinne: Me too.
Yoda Dog
@amk: Noticed that too. These dipshits are starting to lose their own plotlines..
Dear B-bros: I loved the B-man before 2016. I voted for him in the primary…. And I was wrong, he fucking sucks and he continues to suck on the regular these days for all the reasons described above and then some.
You guys should find a new hill to die on, that old man isn’t worth it, I promise. He got his fucking ass kicked by HRC and he’ll get his ass kicked in the 2020 primary if he runs again, mostly because he speaks to PoC about as comfortably and effectively as president fuckface himself does.
Go to bed, wilmerbros. You’re drunk.
Chet Murthy
@tobie: Australia. The Baltic States.
schrodingers_cat
@Gin & Tonic: He does what he is told by his Russian handlers.
Chet Murthy
@Kropadope: Look, KD: We don’t call him Wilmer to denigrate him. Now, maybe you don’t believe that. But y’know, that’s the same as saying that many, many, many people on this blog are just gaslighting you, are out-and-out liars. We call him Wilmer in order to avoid attracting the trolls.
Really, you should give it a rest on the name. It makes you look like a troll.
amk
@Gin & Tonic: that creepy grin again. does the scum even smile in any other way?
Chet Murthy
@Ian: Ian, you’re technically correct. But I think that most Dem voters *still* care about good government, and we care about conflicts of interest. So no, a candidate who doesn’t come clean about their taxes, isn’t going to win the Dem nomination. I feel comfortable choosing that hill to die on.
Ksmiami
@BBA: Then we have both civil war and global war . Not fun
efgoldman
@Chet Murthy:
If it looks like a duck….
schrodingers_cat
BS doesn’t even know much about the banks and Wall Street he keeps railing against. Empty vessels make the most sound. All though that sound seems to be music to leftier-than-thou types.
SiubhanDuinne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
With guns and drums and drums and guns, hurroo, hurroo.
NobodySpecial
@Baud: Hardly. A lot of them are in their 60’s and 70’s and like to talk about how people are doing Democratic politics wrong.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Bernie is popular because he continually shits on Dems and appeals to those who fancy themselves as Anti-Establishment types. That’s also why the networks (cough, cough, Chris Hayes) can’t seem to book anyone else from the Left. As the Primary showed, this approach may build a rapid fan base but it doesn’t win elections or get legislation enacted. Revolution candidates haven’t fared well even in highly Dem states and if Bernie’s big ideas have suddenly started taking hold in state measures, I must have missed it. His Revolution has made him more popular but I don’t see how that translates into 2020, especially if he isn’t running, or has any real relevance to the Dem Party. He’s not leading the way like Schiff, Waters, Cummings, Lewis etc. I’d love be to see his approval ratings amongst the people who rejected him during the Primary (mainly Black women) because I don’t see many of them suddenly feeling the Bern.
Chet Murthy
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: @dm: @Mnemosyne: I’m going to point back at a comment Mnem made a while back (can’t find it right now) that really opened my eyes. In sum:
(1) Yes, Mello voted for some bills that were arguably anti-choice. Yeah yeah, they “sounded” like they were “no big shakes”. Fnck that. He voted for thin-edge-of-the-wedge stuff.
(2) But he claims that he’s changed his spots, and does so publicly and repeatedly.
So why isn’t this all great? Because (as Mnem pointed out by digging thru a HuffPo article)
(3) PP of Omaha, while welcoming his new position, noted clearly CLEARLY that he hadn’t actually reached out to them. PP said “our door’s open, he can come in anytime he wants”.
Y’know, that really, really, really raised my hackles. You wanna claim you’ve changed your spots on the rights of black people? You better make sure there are people from the respected ranks of black America, vouching for you (and eventually Wilmer figured that out). Mello? Not so much. Maybe he did better later, but a few days ago when Mnem pointed this out, I searched around, and could find NO evidence that Mello had done better.
A forced-birther doesn’t get to claim a road-to-Damascus conversion on Scout’s Honor. He better -do- some works, too.
dm
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
That’s exactly right — it’s not faux-controversy if it is true.
That’s why I took the claim seriously. I didn’t dismiss it. It bothered me and why I looked further, and learned that it wasn’t true (at least not completely).
I apologize if it seems like I was being dismissive — I hope I was being exactly the opposite.
The extraordinary claim that it was not true requires extraordinary evidence. That is why I provided a link to the evidence that what was said about Heath Mello was not true.
Quotes from The Nation article:
In 2010 and 2011 he did vote for 20-week abortion ban and some other execrable things, but in 2012 he started supporting Planned Parenthood.
On the ultrasound bill:
….
Lots of stuff elided. If you’re really interested, check the link.
Now, I agree that he was bad in 2011 and 2012 (though I think not “vaginal probe” bad), but, also important: he claims to have come around. But he didn’t start voting 100% of the time with Planned Parenthood until 2015 or so.
Here’s more from the Huffington Post:
He claims to support Planned Parenthood, but hasn’t received their endorsement.
Hmm. The Huffington Post says the DNC endorsed Mello, too:
I thought I’d heard otherwise. And both the Nation and the Huffington Post talk about the real fight being between NARAL and the DNC:
(Huffington Post)
I’m sorry to go on about this at such length. But the trolls seek to divide us by planting false stories and rumors. We’ll be seeing them directed at Elizabeth Warren, Kirsten Gillibrand, Kemala Harris, Cory Booker, Sherrod Brown and others in the coming months, just as we saw them aimed at Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama and Bernie Sanders. We have to be careful what we believe.
Cacti
@sanjeevas:
I became convinced that Corbyn was a useless wanker after his lament that poor old Osama bin Laden had been treated unfairly by the United States.
Chet Murthy
@dm:
Did you read your own excerpts? I’ve highlighted the critical ones (to me, and h/t to Mnem who found ’em a few days ago). You don’t find this questionable? Really? Really?
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@dm: You are again missing the point of the WHOLE thing. He fucked up when asked about Ossoff, but had endorsed Melo. Sorry, you can keep trying but this whole episode shows what a terrible politician BS is. When asked about Ossoff all he had to say was: “He’s a Democrat, I endorse him and he’ll be better than any Republican”. Instead we get this: “If you run as a Democrat, you’re a Democrat,” Sanders said. “Some Democrats are progressive, and some Democrats are not.”
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@dm:
This isn’t about Mello, it’s about Sanders. Sanders, the self appointed gatekeeper of all things progressive, in the space of three days took a long long walk across the street, going way out of his way to voluntarily offer support for Coulter’s hate speech, actively campaigned and endorsed a forced birther (if he could) mayoral candidate, creating division, instead of putting his effort into a Congressional District that was very gettable knowing full well that any real progress has to be made in Congress not Omaha, then he withheld his progressive seal of approval for Ossoff the day of the election making himself the story as he loves to do, and creating more division. He’s as narcissistic as Trump, and appealing to the same asshole demographic.
Chet Murthy
@dm: dm, there’s something that perhaps you believe, perhaps you don’t, but I do, and it informs the way I look at Wilmer (and Mello, and BLM). BTW, I’m cis/hetero/male, and of South Asian descent. Most of the time, I’m part of the privileged group. And I’ve learned an important thing:
PP of Omaha basically said “eh, he seems good, but we have no evidence on which we can actually say he’s trustworthy”. Ilyse Hogue said “nah, bruh”. WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO SAY THEY’RE WRONG?
And let’s come to Wilmer.
Let me tell you something: I’ve voted Dem without exception (don’t remember the first time, but I remember voting for WJC at the US Embassy while working overseas). Part of why I vote Dem, is that the Dem party treats me like a first-class citizen. Just like any other American. And EVEN IF I believed in EVERYTHING ELSE Dampnut stood for, I would be against him, b/c he and his base view me as LESS OF AN AMERICAN than their pasty-skinned ilk.
Wilmer (at his Our Revolution rally in BOS) said that Smallgloves flaccid hordes weren’t racist — “because I’ve been there”.
I’ll leave out the expletives. But Wilmer lost me AT THAT MOMENT. B/c it’s -clear- that Dampnut’s base were drawn by his white supremacy. And Wilmer thinks he can THROW ME UNDER THE BUS to draw them in? *expletives deleted*.
momus
Are you certain that that isn’t the mock-up of the Oval Office down in the Cheney Bunker?
dm
@amk:
No, it’s not. I do think he’s an asset to Democrats in the NPR archipelago, and maybe some areas where his pro-labor message gets through (though not many national unions endorsed him in the primary), but certainly not everywhere. I doubt he’d be much help in Mississippi or Alabama. “He is either an asset or he is toxic” applies differently in different regions.
Now, as I said, he polls well, but as many have noted, that’s just because of name-recognition and a general fuzzy feeling that he says good stuff. As far as that goes, I think of him sort of as a loss-leader: the attractive thing to get you into the store, where hopefully you’ll find something better.
@Chet Murthy: the Huffington Post article I linked to in #401 is the one Mnemosyne found, I think? Yeah, it would be better if he did more than just talk about Planned Parenthood, but also talked to them, certainly.
Reviewing this material this evening, I’m thinking the defense of Mello is weaker than I thought earlier — that 2011 20-week abortion ban, for example.
@Mnemosyne: Thanks! “so far”, eh? (side-eye). I hope you’ll point out times I appear to be being misleading (even if I’m misleading myself).
Kropadope
@Chet Murthy:
Did I specify the Wilmer bit? There are any number of expressions of Bernie Derangement Syndrome on display. If he’s really as bad as you say, you don’t need to stretch every off quote beyond recognition to hunt for things to beat on him for on a daily basis.
efgoldman says I’m derailing threads, but I only ever have these conversations in direct response to relevant comments. You’re derailing your own threads and are demanding the ability to do so without complaint.
Chet Murthy
@dm: In a way, I’m -far- more willing to forgive his record than you are. Yeah, he voted for that 20-week ban. But if PP of Omaha and NARAL had said “he’s good with us”, he’d be good with me.
It’s not for me to judge: I’m not a woman, just like I’m not a black or Latino American. If the orgs that represent women’s rights in this dimension had said he was kosher, I’d be down with it. And I think it’s condescending to just assume that they’re mistaken, when we have no evidence that he’s actually changed his spots.
ETA: even if we had such evidence, it would still be condescending to discount their assessment. But at least, we’d have some evidence.
momus
We’ll know its bad when he holes up at Camp David.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
LEAVE BIRDIE SANDERS ALOOOOOOOOOOONE!!!!!!!!!
lol
amk
@dm: If his ‘pro labor message’ is not resonating even with the labor unions ….
Frankly, I do not recall any of his endorsed candidates win before /during / even after, the november shitfest.
dm
@Chet Murthy: I’m not saying that they are wrong, I am providing evidence that suggests people have been misled, that it’s not as clear-cut as people who throw around “vaginal ultrasound candidate” seem to believe (remember — that’s how I got onto Heath Mello in the first place — I agree, he’s no saint).
It’s like this, you wrote, “it informs the way I look at Wilmer (and Mello, and BLM).”
Now, there’s a few ways to read this:
– you think Sanders and Mello and BLM fit in the same category, in context of this discussion, hyperbolically: they’re assholes and liars and only out for their own good, etc.
– BLM was thrown in for contrast, and was maybe a hasty addition that you might have re-worded to make your intent clearer.
I know you meant the latter (that a white privileged CIS-male has no right to tell BLM what to do or what tactics to use, a statement that I agree with), because you went on to clarify that. But if I wanted to, I could take your quote out of context and start raging at you for disparaging BLM, and, if we were in the press and not a top-100,000 blog, it would turn into a huge controversy and you’d be receiving hate-mail.
Well, not quite, but I hope you see my point.
As to all the people who are telling me what Sanders “meant” when he said he didn’t know if Ossoff was a progressive or not: you remind me of the people who talked endlessly about what Hillary “meant” when she said they don’t have good cellphone service in rural America.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@dm: If we’re evaluating his skills as a politician, though, what Wilmer meant isn’t as important as how people heard it. I will allow that communication is a two-way street, and a lot of people miscommunicate through no fault of their own, but communicating in a way that isn’t misinterpreted in negative fashions is a crucial skill for politicians. To be fair, there probably isn’t a politician that hasn’t had gaffes like this, but at the same time, someone who keeps getting held up as a messaging genius shouldn’t really be having that many of them.
dm
@Chet Murthy:
You’re quite right. But it’s also condescending to say that the Omaha women quoted in the Nation article don’t know what they’re talking about.
@amk: Yeah, that’s why I mentioned the (lack of) union endorsements. A lot of local union endorsements, but not many national unions. Of course, local union endorsements might indicate an appeal to the rank and file.
Chet Murthy
@dm:
(1) re: Sanders, Mello, BLM — yeah, they were just topics that I thought were worth discussing together. But I sure don’t have a problem with BLM. They’re part of why I’m finally woke (the other part is Ta-Nehisi Coates). It’s a matter of some shame to me, that it took so long (I’m not a spring chicken) to finally get woke.
(2) From this article:
I’d be happy to have it explained how he wasn’t saying that Dampnut’s flaccid hordes aren’t racist/homophobe/misogynist. Truly I would.
ETA: I note that EVERY DAMPNUT VOTER knew he was a rapist and a fraud (I set aside the racist and homophobe, b/c it was so *manifestly* clear). And yet, they voted for him. They voted for a man they wouldn’t have left alone in a room with their wife/daughter, nor with their wallet.
Tell me, really, tell me how Sanders isn’t excusing that.
ETA[2]: BTW, I -get- that he needs to find a way to appeal to them. But (as with others on this blog), “don’t think you can get away with throwing ME under the bus to grease your way, old man”.
dm
@(((CassandraLeo))): Not sure I agree, especially in the context of Russian active measures deliberately trying to sow discord. Wikileaks to get the purity ponies angry at Clinton, tendentious readings to get people angry at Sanders (or Warren, or Brown, or Harris).
17 years ago I had an argument with a friend who said to me: “There must be something wrong with Al Gore that he keeps saying all these things that are so easily misinterpreted”.
Flip side: “Hillary Clinton is so controlled in what she says, she must be hiding something” (she’s so controlled in what she says because assholes have been distorting everything she says for almost 30 years).
I’m not defending Sanders because I think he’s the Flying Spaghetti Monster’s gift to politics, I’m pointing out where, and how, I think people have been manipulated.
If we’re going to build a coalition, we have to avoid the sand our opponents are going to try to throw into the works.
sanjeevas
@Cacti: Yes he was always an idiot. Unfortunately now he’s a useful idiot.
Omnes Omnibus
@Chet Murthy:
The road forward does not involve those people. We want two things: 1. Ending/fighting voter suppression. 2. Getting disillusioned people who agree with our values to vote. We don’t need to throw anyone under the bus.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@dm: I agree there certainly are bad faith actors trying to sow discord amongst Democrats. However, I don’t think all of Sanders’ controversial statements can be explained by foreign trolls. I’ve highlighted a few things he’s said lately that pissed me off. Even with context, I’m annoyed by his dismissals of “identity politics” (which, as I’ve explained repeatedly, cannot be separated from politics in general) and his focus on class above all other political issues. Or the Coulter thing. I’m not saying he’s a terrible politician or that he should be a pariah, but if he wants to be a leader in the Democratic Party he needs to improve both his messaging and his priorities.
dm
@Chet Murthy: I’m not going to defend that statement. I completely agree that his fixation on economic issues is, as different-church-lady said at 229, “his cart and his horse are in a non-functional order.”
Chet Murthy
@dm:
You don’t see the problem here? I read the Nation article. Sofia Jawed-Wessel isn’t associated with Planned Parenthood AFAICT. Nor NARAL. Similarly, Guttenplan didn’t actually talk with PP of Omaha. Y’know, perhaps he’s writing in good faith. I really can’t tell, can I? Just b/c he’s in _The Nation_ doesn’t actually tell me (since they publish all manner of pro-Russia rubbish). And the women he talks to — how am I supposed to judge their politics? After all, I’m taking it on their word that this guy Mello’s a straight shooter.
Now suppose that PP were in fact a rubbish org. Like (say) (it seems) the Komen Foundation is. Then I might look for other sources. But both PP and NARAL appear to be strong and trustworthy arbiters. PP does exemplary work. I’m supposed to -ignore- their witness?
This is like the way scientific progress happens. When a very respected authority in their area of expertise makes a claim, it gets more weight than if some unknowns, or non-specialists, make claims. Sure, that respected authority might turn out to be wrong, and after a few times, their respect dribbles away. But until then …..
Chet Murthy
@Omnes Omnibus: Amen, brother. Amen.
dm
@(((CassandraLeo))):
I agree with this, from start to finish. I’m perseverating on this because of the habit of mind it represents — echoes of the Gore, Obama, and Clinton cases. We can avoid it by checking sources, and we can argue against it by providing sources.
I’m sorry for taking up so much time with the Mello thing — I only brought it up because of the “vaginal probe” caricature (which is how I heard about it first, and I was horrified, but also a little dubious, so I did some research).
And, it makes me a little uncomfortable, for reasons Chet Murthy has expressed: it’s not my place to tell you what to think about Mello.
Though, isn’t it interesting that Sanders stirred up so much controversy by endorsing Mello, while the DNC’s endorsement was largely passed over in silence? Perhaps the pattern of dismissing “identity politics” was at play (Perez’s statement was also a firm endorsement of the right to choose, which I’m not sure Sanders ever managed to do in the context of the Mello endorsement).
Chet Murthy
Truth: when I first heard about this Mello thing, I read the Nation article, and was “eh? He seems fine”. And then Mnem pointed out the HuffPo article with the quote from PPofOmaha. And -then- the penny dropped: that neither PPofOmaha nor NARAL were endorsing him, and PP was …. damning with faint praise. It was -precisely- b/c Mnem checked the sources, that I realized I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Her comment was what changed my mind.
Omnes Omnibus
@dm: Honestly, Sanders is yesterday’s news. So is HRC. We have a fascist as president and a Congressional majority that is fascist curious.
That is the thing. People who get iffy about the people opposing the fascists – well, they can annoy me. OTOH, people who advocate abrogating core Democratic principles annoy me too. Am I too easily annoyed? Or is there a way to avoid annoying me on both? I posit that there is.
Fair Economist
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
When the Republicans run ads on Wilmer’s porn writings, we pragmatists won’t be *able* to save him.
Fair Economist
@dm: Wilmer’s limitation aren’t just about messaging. He also ran a campaign with single-payer healthcare as the leading issues – yet was unable to come up with even a vaguely plausible plan to do it. His secondary issue was banking reform – on which he didn’t have much of a plan either. Reinstating Glass-Steagal is fine, but doesn’t address much of the current threats to banking stability, which are more about how all the investment banks are caught up in a web of counterparty risk from derivatives.
dm
@Chet Murthy:
No, I don’t really see the problem here. Yes, Jawed-Wessel is not associated with Planned Parenthood nor NARAL, but she’s a woman on the ground in Omaha.
I have had some experience with national organizations, and yes, I will trust people on the ground in a locality to tell me about their local conditions over what the folks from New York or Washington have to say about it. Especially when they say:
But you could be right that I’m putting too much weight onto “All the women” the writer spoke to.
And, um, yes, I’d prefer a better source than The Nation. But even the case with NARAL is a little ambiguous (Hogue is Ilyse Hogue of NARAL):
(Gosh, Perez sounds just like Jane Sanders, here, doesn’t he?)
(The Huffington Post also reported (a few days earlier) on the tiff between NARAL and the DNC. Link in earlier comment.)
Although, full disclosure, there’s also this:
So the NARAL people had apparently also talked to people on the ground in Omaha.
Vhh
@hovercraft: Nixon won re election in 1972 in a landslide, carrying every state but Mass. In 1973, Archie Cox of Harvard was appointed special prosecutor to investigate the Watergate burglary, but then fired by Nixon when he strated to get somewhere. A bit over a year later, Nixon was forced to resign. The wheel of Justice grinds slow, but it grinds fine.
Omnes Omnibus
@dm: At this point, you have become tiresome.
dm
@Omnes Omnibus:
Gore and Obama are, too. But I keep bringing them up because the tools used against them are being used now to split us today, and will be used by the fascists to do the same to us tomorrow. That is not yesterday’s news.
But I’ve probably let the train of that argument slip away in talking about the Mello example.
For example, just a couple of days ago someone posted here about “Elizabeth Warren, who viciously attacked Obama. What a phony”. (I think the person said “viciously”) The substance of her “vicious attack”? When asked, admitting she was troubled that Obama was accepting a large fee for speaking to some bank[1], before sequeing into a talk about her issues with the banks (I wonder if I will be told that was a “dog whistle” someday?).
If we get into the habit of doing this to ourselves today, it will be much easier for the fascists to do it to us tomorrow.
[1] And every time I mention this speaking fee, I want to remind people that I doubt anyone has any problem with the Obamas receiving $60 million for their memoirs. It’s just that getting paid by banks for speaking complicates messaging (just ask Hillary Clinton!).
Only now? I admire your patience and generosity with your time.
Omnes Omnibus
@dm:
Golly, it is like I had no point. No shit. Jesus.
Chet Murthy
@dm: We’re probably beating a dead horse, b/c it’s over, and it’s a mayor’s race, but still …. it is an “interesting” definition of
that doesn’t include the local Planned Parenthood chapter — you know the only place in the area (searching via google) that actually provides abortions (and yes, so much more — STD screening, IUDs, pap smears, etc, etc). [there’s a “crisis pregnancy center, cleverly disguised there … “essential health services” or some such rubbish… at the bottom of the page on abortion, it sez “we don’t perform nor refer for abortions”]
Steve in the ATL
If anyone needs an insomnia cure, read the last couple of hundred posts on this thread!
mskitty
@Steve in the ATL: Nope, isn’t working. I’ll go see if the application of a large cat to my chest will help.
TenguPhule
@Omnes Omnibus:
Slogan: “Lead, Follow or get the fuck out of our way.”
TenguPhule
@Cacti:
He wanted Osama brought to trial. At least respect that point of view. Because he did have a point. Not the best one, perhaps. But legitimate.