Seems to have been a fun time! You can watch the whole thing, bit by bit, at the Full Frontal YouTube channel.
NYMag had an interview with Ms. Bee earlier this week:
…I am sure you consider yourself to be an entertainer first. But how much do you also consider yourself to be an informer and journalist?
I don’t consider myself to be a journalist. But we rely on the work of journalists. We have journalists working at our offices. We poached a lot of really great journalists to work in our midst. Really, without them we couldn’t create satire. We couldn’t do this show. We are absolutely reliant on them. We are vampires sucking the life force out of all of those great journalists.
Are there a lot of journalists coming to this event? Do you have a sense of that?
You know, some are. We invited a lot of journalists. Certainly, some people felt like they couldn’t come to an event like this, which we completely understand. Our event is on television. That doesn’t prevent anyone from watching it. But we’ll talk about them and thank them whether they’re here or not. But if they come, that’s great…
What has been the most surprising thing, to you, that has happened since Trump’s presidency began? Can you even pick one thing?
I can’t even pick one thing, but I will say the speed at which things were happening for a long period of time. That was very surprising to me. That was very surprising to me. I’m really just getting a sense right now that he’s trying to figure out what are the toys at his disposal. He’s really figuring it out in real time. I don’t think that’s a good thing.
So the degree to which he really had no idea what he was getting into was surprising.
It doesn’t surprise me that he had no idea what he was getting into. It surprised me that someone who had almost no knowledge of what the job required would endeavor to do things as quickly as he did…
If you’re bi-curious, here’s Hasan Minhaj’s monologue at the “real” WHCD. Poor fella tried really hard, but the audience seemed a little stiff…
Hal
How yuge was Trump’s rally? Bigger than the crowd at his historic inauguration?
amk
CJ and SamBee were hilarious.
amk
@Hal:
germy
germy
Last night, some folks here were sharing tweets about the PA rally. Some alarming stuff. Photos of skinheads, lots of empty seats, dangerous rhetoric from the schitzgibbon.
And then this morning I check WaPo and I see
No mention of empty seats, no mention of audience thugs, just a good, positive story.
mai naem mobile
@germy: IIRC Sean Hannitys key man in his contract is Bill Shine so I wonder if he quits if Shine goes. I tell you some of my autocorrects are Freudian autocorreCT slips.
Baud
@germy:
I hear that it’s the number one concern of people with economic anxiety.
germy
The surprise appearance by “President George W” was amusing.
Elizabelle
@germy: I know. It’s incredible how far the WaPost and FTFNYTimes go to normalize a blatantly un-normal president.
It’s shameful. They need to hear from us that we won’t put up with that level of gaslighting.
Baud
@Elizabelle: A little extreme. It’s not like he wore a tan suit. Now that’s not normal.
Wag
@Baud:
Of course it is. Only when political correctness is trampled into the dirt will they be able to let their true freak flag fly and blame the n-clang-ers for ruining the economic status of the trailer trash white folk. They just want to be able to call a spade a spade.
GregB
Meanwhile, Wayne LaPierre at the NRA is uncorking Pol Pot’s greatest hits in his speech railing against the academic elites.
Professor Swanson from the archaeology department More dangerous than ISIS and MS13 ya know.
debbie
@amk:
Nothing demonstrates dwindling support like a shrinking audience.
germy
@mai naem mobile:
I think they were all expecting shitzgibbon to lose the election and launch a TV station. Wasn’t shannity supposed to be the new star of that one?
germy
@debbie:
You wouldn’t know it from the WaPo. The hall was “almost full”!
germy
@GregB: The eliminationist rhetoric reminds me of a book I’m halfway through, “Armies Of Evil”
debbie
@Baud:
What else could have possibly caused them to be worried about their economic situation?
debbie
@germy:
I saw that. Unbelievable.
amk
@debbie: Apparently, twitler wants his racist nutz to sign a loyalty pledge on May day. Creepy to the core narcissist scum.
Mike J
debbie
He’s already got five tweets under his belt this morning, but the last two…
I sense we’re on the path to another broken promise.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
A story from the Land of Trump’s true Life Partener: This one lady in my on line role play game was a student going to a university in Moscow. She went to a rally protesting for gay rights that apparently was prerty big so the Russian government declared her a lesbian and expelled her. So The Resistance inspires others.
Also, it occurred to me Putin, He snippy, fastidious about his apparent, does odd stuff like let himself be pictured shirtless, gets into weird tiffs like his one with Hilary Clinton and a big homophone. The guy is gay.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Once again, ask him to spell it out.
I thought Minaj’s problem was partly nerves on his part, partly a generation gap– he was way too young for the room. IIRC a few years ago, after Wanda Sykes or maybe Colbert shocked their delicate sensibilities, they had to bring in Rich Little, who shocked everyone by still being alive, to recover.
debbie
@amk:
This is the first I’ve heard about Loyalty Day, which is celebrated tomorrow. Vlad will approve, no doubt.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@debbie: maybe he’ll get people’s attention in a way Paul Ryan and Mark Meadows and the other guy can’t. Seemed to me there was a lot less urgency last week. I’ll be calling bright and early tomorrow morning.
Elizabelle
You guys: a word about “economic anxiety.” A few, actually.
I know we all snark like crazy about it, because a lot of Trump voters turn out to be economically comfortable.
But, even if they are, it’s hard to say that they see a bright future for their kids. They can feel the middle class opportunities slipping away too. They’re blaming that on Democrats, and they are wrong to do that, but it does not mean they aren’t anxious.
Driverless cars. Driverless trucks. Jobless people, in a number we have not seen since the Great Depression. And the “elites” and rich, hoovering up money and sitting on it. Or using it to interfere maliciously in politics and media, which is just as bad.
I think economic anxiety, and status anxiety, drives a lot. It’s subverted into a religious war (the West vs. Islam) as a distraction while the wealthy continue to suck up the cash and disinvest from our civil societies.
So no, I don’t find it clever to be scoffing at people with “economic anxiety.” It can be anxiety for their very own kin, even if these shabby asses can’t find empathy for their community or nation or any larger entity.
It’s fear of change, and it’s better to confront that change, try to make it for better, and communicate more fully and repeatedly with those who are in change’s path. Which is just about all of us.
Baud
@debbie:
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a54807/trump-loyalty-day/
Baud
@Elizabelle:
Child molesters were often molested as children. They are still child molesters.
Elizabelle
@Baud: Oh boy.
Because May 1, to me, is the day of great USSR parades of military might.
Which is probably how “Loyalty Day” found renewal in the 1958, hello there, cold war.
Patriot. Liberty. Freedom. Loyalty.
Rightwingers turn all of those wonderful concepts to trash and flash and self-dealing. They weaponize the concepts against the rest of us. Sad!
Yarrow
I watched Sam Bee’s NTWHCD last night. Loved it. The opening with CJ was excellent.
@germy: That’s so depressing. Nothing about non-police holding down the protesters? Nothing about his “snake” story?
There’s always going to be a core of people who love Trump, though. A video can surface of him being Putin’s bottom and they won’t care. Direct video of him saying, “Sure, I’ll sell out America if you pay my debts” can be played and they won’t care. So long as he’s talking about white’s first and building the wall, that’s all they care about.
Mike J
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
F1 race this week was in Sochi. When it was over the top three drivers were up on stage and were handed the traditional magnum of champagne. The TV announcers were saying “Don’t spray Putin! God, I hope they don’t spray Putin!” Which, you know, would be good advice about any head of state sharing the celebration stage, but they seemed to be genuinely concerned about the well being of the drivers when it came to Putin.
Schlemazel
Caught bits of Minhaj’s stuff, maybe the audience was stiff but he was as unfunny as anyone I have ever heard of doing one of these things. Just awful.
gene108
@debbie:
While the rest for the world celebrates the Working Man, with a day off, in commemoration of the Haye Market riots, in Chicago in the 1880’s, America has shot this down the memory hole and has Loyalty Day instead.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Entirely possible that Pence is trying to pull in stragglers, votes they need, by convincing them they don’t want to be standing alone with the big tweeting ape watching over them, but still scary
ThresherK
Shout out to Monticello.org. Warts and all (slaveholder, etc), the folks there must be earning their keep as truth squads against the Foxfuckers to save the reputation of Thomas Jefferson from being warped for the future.
How did I find this out?
Well, stop me if you’ve heard this before: An Undecided Independent WAVERer* shared an honest-to-God Founding Father Quote on FB which sounds just too good to be true!
Wow! It’s some Ayn Rand crap grafted onto a Jefferson quote. Jefferson wrote a piece about replacing the whim of a PM, let alone some “divine right” monarch, with codified law. The Rand part is obviously “the Constitution is to keep govenment from being legalized criminals”.
Literally the first response if you Yahoogle “spurious Jefferson Rand”.
(*”Who always votes every Republican”–testing this term out)
hovercraft
@germy: @Baud:
These poor beleaguered people!!
God knows their lives just haven’t been the same since they were forced to stop calling people, ni.g.g.ers, k.i.k.es, f.a.gs and c.u.n.ts in public, now they only get to do it in their safe spaces. Now that they’ve been freed from political correctness by their orange messiah, we can all look forward to their insightful contributions to our national discourse.
Talk about MAGA, shit yeah.
Now can we dispense with the politically correct bullshit that requires us to pretend that these fucking assholes are economically anxious, and aren’t some of the dumbest people on the planet? You stop pretending their are just “good people” who are afraid of “change”, call them what they are, and I’ll stop pretending that they I don’t hate them. This way we can all just say what we really want and let everyone judge us.
Yarrow
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Oh, yeah. That’s been clear for awhile. There has to be kompromat on him somewhere.
schrodingers_cat
@Elizabelle: Voting for Rs is not going to ease economic anxiety.
debbie
@Baud:
Joe McCarthy would approve.
germy
In the above clip, I’m pretty sure the nice lady from “wakeupsheeplenewsbiz.com” contributes material to my local, right-leaning TV news station. She looks familiar.
Elizabelle
@schrodingers_cat: Oh, I agree. They’re idiots there.
Yarrow
@Elizabelle: The people who probably have more economic anxiety are non-white people. Shockingly, they mostly didn’t vote for Trump. It’s so weird how the white people are the ones who seem to think Trump will help their economic anxiety. That’s because it’s racism. And he’s helping them with that. They get to fly that flag loud and proud.
Schlemazel
@amk:
early draft of the oaths (there are more than one)
Service oath for the public
“I swear: I will be faithful and obedient to the leader of the
GermanAmerican Empire and people,Adolf HitlerDonald J. Trump, to observe the law, and to conscientiously fulfill my official duties, so help me God.”Military oath
“I swear to God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the
GermanAmerican Empire and people,Adolf HitlerDonald J. Trump, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath.”Jim, Foolish Literalist
sounds like another doozy of an interview
NeenerNeener
@Schlemazel: Minhaj’s stuff was good, but he was nervous and rushing his delivery.
amk
@Elizabelle: Most of twitler’s voters are economically well off, per polls. I have zero problem associating their ‘economic anxiety’ with their racism. Have you seen their ‘signs’ in their hatefest rallies? None is about their economic status.
germy
@ThresherK: I’ve seen enough founding father phony quotes to last me a lifetime. They also invent make-believe quotes to put in the mouths of historical people they want to discredit, like Margaret Sanger.
Chyron HR
@Elizabelle:
That’s right, racism is just a “fear of change.” Y’all just need to give the noble white working class enough time to get used to newfangled ideas like “Blacks are human beings.”
Yarrow
@schrodingers_cat: Left you some comments about soil and mulches in the garden thread.
HRA
@Baud:
“I hear that it’s the number one concern of people with economic anxiety.”
I believe this is the one answer I did not think about in dealing with the Trumper in my life. I am not referring to someone in dire need financially. I am referring to someone who will go back miles to a store who overcharged him 56 cents. Om further thought, I can only assume it began after his father died and his mother had no choice except to go on welfare until she completed her nurse training. It is not easy for me to understand fully for my early life was spent as a child of a business man.
It is true when we say those voter are uneducated. Then we also have to acknowledge the various differences of being uneducated.
Schlemazel
@NeenerNeener:
He did seem uncomfortable but I am not convinced that it was just his delivery that was the problem. I have seen him before and he can be funny
Aleta
@germy: Yesterday the wapo also published a fake op ed not written by him. (Likely he never read it, maybe didn’t even know about it.) Have we seen one thing, even a memo, Tr has written (excepting autographs on photos of himself)?
Yes I know that kind of piece is convention and ‘only’ symbolic. And fake smarm by Ivanka the terrible will surely be next, and soon a weighty pseudo-analytical one by imaginary Jared.
But the byline of the piece was jarring because of how clearly it sat there, another untroubled lie in the press.
dogwood
@Schlemazel:
I watched Minhaj’s entire set and really liked it. And as far as the audience reaction goes, there weren’t any Hollywood celebrities in attendance. Traditionally it ain’t the press doing all the laughing; it’s the “glamorous” guests.
Yarrow
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: i hope Mayhew/David Anderson does a post on this soon.
Found his Twitter feed to see if he had anything on this (not yet) but saw this there:
Elizabelle
@Chyron HR: Fuck off. That’s not the point I was making at all.
Yes. A lot of, if not most, of Trump’s supporters are racists. That does not mean they’re not also anxious about the disappearing middle class. They are too stupid to comprehend why that’s happening, and what they might actually do to ameliorate it.
Racism is not 100% the answer, any more than economic anxiety, or “patriotism” or “praise Jesus.”
I hate when the hive mind here makes things so simplistic.
amk
ThresherK
@germy: Yeah, but I noticed an upswing after That Black Democrat Won the White’s House (no sic).
It’s like being a fan of some ignored band or movie and all the new fans are just assholes one doesn’t want to bother with.
(PS I found out that Gandhi didn’t say the thing about “I like your Christ, it’s your Christians I could do without”, so I’ve stopped using it.)
Aleta
@germy:
Other examples of slanted, distorted news stories (at ABC, CBS):
amk
WereBear
@Elizabelle: all true except they want to handle change by rolling us back in a time machine. I don’t see where we come to a meeting of the minds on that.
germy
I saw this in the reader comments in a Olivia Nuzzi article about the PA rally:
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/04/trumps-alt-white-house-correspondents-dinner.html
Baud
@Aleta: Yeah, those tweets are horrible.
Elizabelle
@Aleta: I know.
We have a front row seat at the FTFNYTimes, and often the WaPost, and other major news outlets normalizing Trump. The NY Times is literally enabling a fascist with their headlines and what they cover and don’t (no front page mention about Pocahontas, not one), even while they cover their asses by railing against him in editorials.
It is painful to see this happening here. Sinclair Lewis would not be surprised, but he would be disappointed in us.
germy
@ThresherK:
You’re right. That’s actually when I started noticing the phony quotes. I’d see a statement that sounded a bit too… randian, and google it, and see it repeated on a bunch of RW blogs, and then I’d see it discredited on .edu sites.
Elizabelle
@WereBear: I don’t know. Attrition, maybe.
But the protests are great, and I wish we had a big one every single month, on so many issues. And get them to drop even thinking about dealing with healthcare this Congress. They’re dirty. No tax policy either. It can wait.
Lurking Canadian
@Elizabelle: During the 2012 campaign we had the parable of the CEO who takes 11/12 cookies, then tells the o non-union guy, “Be careful! That union guy wants your cookie!”
Seems to me the parable works just as well if it’s a CEO, a white guy and a black guy; or a CEO, a man and a woman. Racism and misogyny are terrible enough on their own, but as long as the CEO gets eleven cookies, the rest of us are going to find some reason to fight over the last one.
geg6
@Elizabelle:
Sorry but that’s bullshit. Not one Trumper I know has mentioned any of these concerns when voicing their support for Dolt 45. Not a single one. What they do say loud and clear is that women should be pregnant and barefoot, darkies should step off the sidewalk and doff their caps with their eyes on the ground when a white person comes walking by and that the only good immigrant is a dead one, unless, of course, they are white Christian Europeans. Their kids are spoiled brats, as rude and militantly ignorant as their parents and the only thing any of them is anxious about is the inevitable loss of status that the demographic wave that is coming will usher in. Fuck them and fuck their vile offspring. I know and understand them quite well, thank you very much, and have no desire to bring them into my coalition. I hope they all choke in their bile and die. Preferably by tomorrow.
SiubhanDuinne
@Yarrow:
Can you give me the tl;dr version of what you mean by “‘snake’ story”? Haven’t seen a transcript, refuse to watch a video, but this makes me curious. Thanks!
Baud
@Lurking Canadian:
Except “the rest of us” are not fighting over the last one. Only one demo is fully supporting the CEO in order to prevent others from having their cookies.
Yarrow
@Elizabelle: Of course there’s not one answer to why people voted for Trump. But I’ll repeat what I said upthread, the people who are more economically anxious, non-white people, overwhelmingly didn’t vote for Trump.
Non-whites saw who he was and recognized that existential thread to their being. They know Trump views them as lesser, as not worthy of rights and protections under law. White people looked at Trump and saw the opposite. They knew Trump would put them first. Now that may not be racism in it’s most overt form, but it’s racism nonetheless.
Elizabelle
@Baud: Yes! So true!
NeenerNeener
@Yarrow: I was doing some mutual fund research yesterday and ran across an article from this last December where they asked mutual fund managers what they thought the stock market would look like in 2017. On health care the consensus was: great for insurance companies and Big Pharma, bad for hospitals because a lot of people will lose their insurance. It’s a chilling thought that the stock market is already pricing in TrumpDon’tCare.
Elizabelle
@Yarrow: Thank you. That’s an excellent response. Cannot disagree with a syllable.
ETA: I think some white people don’t want to leave their fantasy land myth, where hard work is all it takes. As soon as they look at that …. so they don’t.
It’s a foundational myth, and it’s fake.
Yarrow
@SiubhanDuinne:
Follow up article:
Click through to read article.
schrodingers_cat
Corporate media brought us T. They are a propaganda arm of the Rs. They are not going to rescue us. They are outraged about Obama’s speaking fees but not about T dehumanizing and otherizing whole classes of people.
Tenar Arha
@amk:
@debbie:
Yeah. Like so many less well known holidays, unfortunately that’s not a new one. It was deliberately created to coincide with May Day beginning in the 20’s to stomp hard on all the “communist” labor organizing.
ETA Should have known @Baud would have the answers!
Yarrow
@Yarrow: I don’t know if AARP has put out an official statement yet, but this article from April 27 on the healthcare bill sounds like they’re against it.
Age Tax! Use that in any faxes you send today and all the calls you make tomorrow. Older Americans are the most dependable voters. Let them know you oppose the age tax!
debbie
@Aleta:
And why even quote the slur? Isn’t enough that Trump thinks Warren might run against him?
tobie
@amk: I live in a sea of Trump supporters on the northern Eastern Shore of Maryland. None are rich. They’re mostly associated with the construction trade either as small time contractors themselves or the electricians, plumbers, flooring and landscaping folks that contractors hire. Their lives were turned upside down by the collapse of the housing market which they blamed on the Community Reinvestment Act. They have few real skills, minimal education and are vulnerable to competition from immigrants. They hate unions, political correctness, city folk, minorities, the highly educated. As far as they’re concerned they’re the salt of the earth and have never received a hand out. Ask them who paid for the $50,000 septic system covered by the state’s Chesapeake Bay fund and they’ll tell you they did with their flush tax. Remind them that the flush tax is $15/household a year and they’ll say you’re wrong.
debbie
@geg6:
Couldn’t they be using economic anxiety (or bar beard) as a cloak of respectability, hiding their clear racist beliefs?
Iowa Old Lady
@Elizabelle: Once, I was teaching a group of mostly white, working class college students, and the novel all classes had to use was Sister Carrie. There’s point in the novel where Carrie succeeds as an actress because she frowned charmingly on stage, and her ex-boyfriend, who was a successful businessman, has been reduced to being a strike breaker driving a street car. The students swore to me that Carrie was doing well because she was working harder than the man was.
I kept pressing and they eventually fell into silence. They had no words for this.
Hal
Watching people on twatter defend Brett Stephens and the NY Times in the name of free speech and exchange of ideas while excoriating readers for canceling their subscriptions is a fun thing to do on this cold Sunday. Apparently not wanting your money going to anti-science lies and bullshit is bad for the first amendment.
FlipYrWhig
@Elizabelle: They also don’t work particularly hard but imagine themselves to be hardworking people because everyone knows Those People are lazy moochers on welfare. They’re sick and loathsome and I don’t really give a fuck about their supposedly sad lives.
Elizabelle
@Iowa Old Lady: Wow.
ETA: edited this comment. Sister Carrie was published in 1900. I was thinking of a 1920s novel. My bad.
dogwood
@schrodingers_cat:
Actually they aren’t “outraged” by President Obama’s speaking fees. They are creating an opportunity for their viewers and readers to become outraged. It burnishes their “both siderism” ethos. And Obama has “ratings” potential.
Tenar Arha
@Aleta: You’ve reminded me, IIRC he also wanted the President’s transcripts from college and graduate school. And it’s always projection with 45. I mean like almost always. He’s such a cheater that he really believes in his heart of hearts that everyone cheats. So, maybe the transcripts thing was just one more example of how bad a student he truly was, and how much his father actually had to help him out.
Baud
@Hal: Exercising free speech is anti-free speech in TrumpWorld.
Elizabelle
@Hal: Linky, please.
It’s like the NY Times is trying to drive us away with their awful hires.
Do you think they’re trying to become the new Wall Street Journal?
Elizabelle
@schrodingers_cat: I agree. You can’t not see it, about corporate media. Owned by corporations, for corporations.
JPL
@Hal: The marketing team at the NYTimes didn’t realize that by adding a climate denier on their oped page, they would lose subscriptions. Whackos are not going to subscribe to the NYTimes. period. MSNBC is close to making the same mistake, if they give Hugh Hewitt a show.
Another Scott
@Elizabelle: You make some good points. People worry about the future, they worry about change, and they worry about the lack of progress.
The political press likes to distill complicated behaviors of tens of millions down to 2-3 sentences, and those distillations are always wrong.
But political coverage is usually a lagging indicator.
If we want to change reality, we have to change reality and not worry about the national political coverage. I continue to think our best chance for changing the direction of the ship of state is to get Democratic-leaning people fired up and willing to do whatever it takes to vote. That means getting informed about registration deadlines and helping to make sure that as many people as possible meet them. That means fighting in court when necessary to prevent additional restrictions from being implemented. It means running candidates for every possible office even if they “don’t have a chance” (it makes the Teabagger spend money and defend their policies and lays a foundation for the future).
It’s a long process, but when Democrats vote, Democrats win. Even in Wyoming (Clinton’s worst state) Democrats got nearly 22% of the vote. Small shifts can make a big difference in the EC, so we need to turn out every Democratic vote every single election.
The press likes nothing better than surprises. They get bored by the conventional wisdom and overdogs always winning (even though it’s easy to report) because it doesn’t make people tune in or click on their site. FTFNYTimes and WaPo and Politico and TheHill will be all over lefty causes as we continue to win and show that we aren’t going away. Success builds on success and changes the conversation.
There’s always been an ugly undercurrent in America that hates progress, hates knowledge and science and expertise, hates foreigners (and even people from other states), hates women, hates the young. The fascists rile up those people, but they aren’t a majority. We have to do more to push them back under their rocks and do more to support the commonweal that our predecessors have built.
We’ve got to keep working, keep supporting our candidates, and keep fighting the Teabaggers and Trumpers every single day.
Thanks again to everyone in the trenches fighting for us. You’re doing important work.
My too long $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
SiubhanDuinne
@Yarrow:
Thanks. Had somehow missed all of that, both throughout the campaign and more recently.
Elizabelle
@geg6: My condolences on living among the Living DeadTrumpers. It sounds awful.
Thank dog for great pets, husband, and meals. But it’s not enough. I’m serious. I’d be homicidal by this point.
dogwood
@Baud:
What I liked about Minhaj last night was that he didn’t go after Trump with jokes. He called him a liar without adding a punch line. He said the president doesn’t believe in the 1st Amendment and it wasn’t a setup for a joke or some clever mockery.
Patricia Kayden
@Elizabelle: I’m trying to understand your point. Trump voters were perfectly comfortable voting for a man who openly espoused racist ideology, including starting his presidential campaign with racist claims about Mexicans. If I’m perfectly comfortable with voting for a racist, then I’m racist. We’re talking about a 70 year old man who was found liable for racially profiling Black and Brown tenants and who attacked President Obama’s legitimacy by claiming that he wasn’t even born in this country.
There is nothing that I as a Black woman can or will do to reach Trump supporters because they hate my guts because of my race. I don’t care if they are “economically anxious” because most of us on this website could say the same, including those of us who are people of color.
El Caganer
@Mike J: Are you sure that wasn’t a line from the secret tape of Trump’s Moscow water-sports adventure?
Elizabelle
@JPL: Yes. The FTFNYT and MSNBC are, how you say it, pissing in the soup?
Re the NYTimes: when your own readers are commenting that you are enabling fascists, and saying so gets a huge number of likes, you might look at your product.
Mike R
@Hal: It seems that many people don’t understand that free speech means that I am not required to listen or pay for ideas that are in effect lies and propaganda.
Another Scott
@Elizabelle: You make some good points. People worry about the future, they worry about change, and they worry about the lack of progress.
The political press likes to distill complicated behaviors of tens of millions down to 2-3 sentences, and those distillations are always wrong.
But political coverage is usually a lagging indicator.
If we want to change reality, we have to change reality and not worry about the national political coverage. I continue to think our best opportunity for changing the direction of the ship of state is to get Democratic-leaning people fired up and willing to do whatever it takes to vote. That means getting informed about registration deadlines and helping to make sure that as many people as possible meet them. That means fighting in court when necessary to prevent additional restrictions from being implemented. It means running candidates for every possible office even if they “don’t have a
chanceopportunity” [apparently that’s a FYWP word] (it makes the Teabagger spend money and defend their policies and lays a foundation for the future).It’s a long process, but when Democrats vote, Democrats win – there are more of us than them. Even in Wyoming (Clinton’s worst state) Democrats got nearly 22% of the vote. Small shifts can make a big difference in the EC, so we need to turn out every Democratic vote every single election (even if a particular race can’t be flipped that particular time).
The press likes nothing better than surprises. They get bored by the conventional wisdom and overdogs always winning (even though it’s easy to report) because it doesn’t make people tune in or click on their site. FTFNYTimes and WaPo and Politico and TheHill will be all over lefty causes as we continue to win and show that we aren’t going away. Success builds on success and changes the conversation.
There’s always been an ugly undercurrent in America that hates progress, hates knowledge and science and expertise, hates foreigners (and even people from other states), hates women, hates the young. The fascists rile up those people, but they aren’t a majority. We have to do more to push them back under their rocks and do more to support the commonweal that our predecessors have built.
We’ve got to keep working, keep supporting our candidates, and keep fighting the Teabaggers and Trumpers every single day.
Thanks again to everyone in the trenches fighting for us. You’re doing important work.
My too long $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who wonders if this will post this time…)
Gvg
Actually Trump is the one who is not loyal as in treasonous. He is so anti foreigner except for Russia that is kind of peculiar.
He listens to random foreign dictators rather than the American state department experts. He views many loyal American government workers as others or the enemy. He is the disloyal. Bitterly ironic he is talking up loyalty oaths.
Elizabelle
@Patricia Kayden: I agree. Trump’s voters are odious. They either knew what they were voting for, or are the worst judges of character out there. No question. No excuses. FWIW, I would guess it’s going to be hard to get a lot of people to admit they voted for Trump, in ten years’ time. A bit damn late for remorse, but …
Anyway, we are seeing a resurgence of fascists, rightwingers, all over the place. It’s whack a mole. I think it’s actual economic anxiety and status anxiety underpinning the threat to democracies. Which does not make the voters nonracist, but it would seem more complicated than that.
Apparently few agree with me. Oh well.
Another Scott
@Elizabelle: You make some good points. People worry about the future, they worry about change, and they worry about the lack of progress.
The political press likes to distill complicated behaviors of tens of millions down to 2-3 sentences, and those distillations are always wrong.
But political coverage is usually a lagging indicator.
If we want to change reality, we have to change reality and not worry about the national political coverage. I continue to think our best opportunity for changing the direction of the ship of state is to get Democratic-leaning people fired up and willing to do whatever it takes to vote. That means getting informed about registration deadlines and helping to make sure that as many people as possible meet them. That means fighting in court when necessary to prevent additional restrictions from being implemented. It means running candidates for every possible office even if they “don’t have a
chanceopportunity” [apparently that’s a FYWP word] (it makes the Teabagger spend money and defend their policies and lays a foundation for the future).It’s a long process, but when Democrats vote, Democrats win – there are more of us than them. Even in Wyoming (Clinton’s worst state) Democrats got nearly 22% of the vote. Small shifts can make a big difference in the EC, so we need to turn out every Democratic vote every single election (even if a particular race can’t be flipped that particular time).
The press likes nothing better than surprises. They get bored by the conventional wisdom and overdogs always winning (even though it’s easy to report) because it doesn’t make people tune in or click on their site. FTFNYTimes and WaPo and Politico and TheHill will be all over lefty causes as we continue to win and show that we aren’t going away. Success builds on success and changes the conversation.
There’s always been an ugly undercurrent in America that hates progress, hates knowledge and science and expertise, hates foreigners (and even people from other states), hates women, hates the young. The fascists rile up those people, but they aren’t a majority. We have to do more to push them back under their rocks and do more to support the commonweal that our predecessors have built.
We’ve got to keep working, keep supporting our candidates, and keep fighting the Teabaggers and Trumpers every single day.
Thanks again to everyone in the trenches fighting for us. You’re doing important work.
My too long $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who wonders if this will post this time…)
(My kingdom for a Preview function…)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Hal: and he’s not just a climate denier
he is not, of course, at least in the interview presented by Vox, asked to explain how “black lives matter” and “all lives matter” are mutually exclusive
Mnemosyne
@Elizabelle:
I think part of what we’re talking about is coping mechanisms. We’re all feeling economically anxious, but only Trump voters decided that the way to relieve their anxiety is to ratchet up the racism and put the blame on Those People. And they genuinely do think that the only reason non-whites are doing better than they are is that the government has unfairly tilted the scales. How do you get people like that to be on your side?
The way FDR did it was by constructing the New Deal so that whites benefited first and foremost, with non-whites getting the scraps. That kind of solution is no longer acceptable to most liberals, but it’s the only kind of solution that Trump voters will accept. Now what?
Baud
The NYT is garbage.
Another Scott
@Elizabelle: I agree with much of what you said, and composed a long reply to give my thoughts, but FYWP won’t let me post it.
I’ll try again…
@Elizabelle: You make some good points. People worry about the future, they worry about change, and they worry about the lack of progress.
The political press likes to distill complicated behaviors of tens of millions down to 2-3 sentences, and those distillations are always wrong.
But political coverage is usually a lagging indicator.
If we want to change reality, we have to change reality and not worry about the national political coverage. I continue to think our best opportunity for changing the direction of the ship of state is to get Democratic-leaning people fired up and willing to do whatever it takes to vote. That means getting informed about registration deadlines and helping to make sure that as many people as possible meet them. That means fighting in court when necessary to prevent additional restrictions from being implemented. It means running candidates for every possible office even if they “don’t have a
chanceopportunity” [apparently that’s a FYWP word] (it makes the Teabagger spend money and defend their policies and lays a foundation for the future).[ to be continued …]
Cheers,
Scott.
Patricia Kayden
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Shouldn’t the Interviewer have asked him what “thuggish elements” are in BLM? We have seen videos of actual thugs attacking protesters at Trump rallies so he should be asked about them as well. If “thuggish elements” disqualify BLM as a legitimate protest group then shouldn’t the thugs who physically assaulted protesters disqualify Trump from being normalized as a legitimate President? There were actual skinheads at Trump’s recent rally. Why isn’t the Right taking responsibility for its White thugs?
Another Scott
@Elizabelle: I agree with much of what you said, and composed a long reply to give my thoughts, but FYWP won’t let me post it.
I’ll try again…
@Elizabelle: You make some good points. People worry about the future, they worry about change, and they worry about the lack of progress.
The political press likes to distill complicated behaviors of tens of millions down to 2-3 sentences, and those distillations are always wrong.
But political coverage is usually a lagging indicator.
If we want to change reality, we have to change reality and not worry about the national political coverage. I continue to think our best opportunity for changing the direction of the ship of state is to get Democratic-leaning people fired up and willing to do whatever it takes to vote.
[ to be continued …]
Cheers,
Scott.
Another Scott
@Elizabelle: I agree with much of what you said, and composed a long reply to give my thoughts, but FYWP won’t let me post it.
I’ll try again…
@Elizabelle: You make some good points. People worry about the future, they worry about change, and they worry about the lack of progress.
The political press likes to distill complicated behaviors of tens of millions down to 2-3 sentences, and those distillations are always wrong.
But political coverage is usually a lagging indicator.
If we want to change reality, we have to change reality and not worry about the national political coverage. I continue to think our best opportunity for changing the direction of the ship of state is to get Democratic-leaning people fired up and willing to do whatever it takes to vote.
[ to be continued …]
Cheers,
Scott.
Another Scott
@Elizabelle: I agree with much of what you said, and composed a long reply to give my thoughts, but FYWP won’t let me post it.
I’ll try again…
@Elizabelle: You make some good points. People worry about the future, they worry about change, and they worry about the lack of progress.
The political press likes to distill complicated behaviors of tens of millions down to 2-3 sentences, and those distillations are always wrong.
But political coverage is usually a lagging indicator.
If we want to change reality, we have to change reality and not worry about the national political coverage. I continue to think our best opportunity for changing the direction of the ship of state is to get Democratic-leaning people fired up and willing to do whatever it takes to vote.
[ to be continued …]
Cheers,
Scott.
amk
@tobie: PEW had an post-poll analysis showing most of the middle class (I think over 50K) voted for the racist scum while Hillary got the majority of low-income voters. Hence, I don’t buy the economic anxiety bs.
Another Scott
@Elizabelle: I agree with much of what you said, and composed a long reply to give my thoughts, but FYWP won’t let me post it.
I’ll try again…
@Elizabelle: You make some good points. People worry about the future, they worry about change, and they worry about the lack of progress.
The political press likes to distill complicated behaviors of tens of millions down to 2-3 sentences, and those distillations are always wrong.
But political coverage is usually a lagging indicator.
If we want to change reality, we have to change reality and not worry about the national political coverage. I continue to think our best opportunity for changing the direction of the ship of state is to get Democratic-leaning people fired up and willing to do whatever it takes to vote.
[ to be continued …]
Cheers,
Scott.
Patricia Kayden
@JPL: I think it would be great if the NYT and MSNBC were hit hard in their pockets. It would probably be the only way they’ll get the message that going all out for Rightwingers isn’t a good economic policy unless your name is Fox News. Giving up MSNBC was easier than I thought it would be. There are so many other outlets for great news that I don’t miss them or other cable news. Once in a while I’ll watch France24 if I need my news fix.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
way too early to get excited, but this seems big
@Patricia Kayden: he cites something at Claremont-McKenna, which I don’t remember, and Charles Murray being invited to Middlebury, which I don’t remember as being a protest led by BLM, and Murray has been known phony cretin since long before BLM was formed.
Another Scott
@Elizabelle: I agree with much of what you said, and composed a long reply to give my thoughts, but FYWP won’t let me post it. I have tried about a dozen times, but can’t figure out why…
:-/
Cheers,
Scott.
Mnemosyne
@Elizabelle:
I actually think that the status anxiety is the real underlying cause, not the economic anxiety per se. As jobs move to other countries, those countries (like China) gain status, and workers who lost jobs lose status. They’re feeling the status anxiety squeeze from both ends — foreigners are taking their jobs outside the country and they’re losing ground in the culture inside the country.
For hundreds of years, the poorest, most broken-down white sharecropper could be socially superior to a richer, better-educated black man and force that black man to defer to him. That was the white man’s substitute for economic security, and they convinced themselves that they didn’t need economic security.
So now you’re trying to substitute something they never thought was important (economic security) for something they think is desperately important (status security). It’s going to be a very, very tough road to convince people to change their minds about a belief they have that’s been handed down for many generations.
Elizabelle
Heading out for a while, but this was a fascinating read too.
amk
@Baud: That should be your 2020 slogan. Both the left and the right will love it.
Elizabelle
@Another Scott: I’d love to see it. Maybe break it apart and try again?
@Mnemosyne: Yes, great comments.
Gonna go out and walk a bit. Have an hour or two before dark falls. Still a little groggy from last night’s guitar party by neighbors (which broke up at 5:45 am, with them shooshing each other as they headed down the stairwell.) Has been quiet as a tomb next door and have been so tempted to pound on the wall.
Will check in with you later.
Mike J
@Baud:
It’s funny to see Timesmen saying, “Trump hates us! You people on the left aren’t allowed to, or you’re just like him! ”
If that doesn’t work, the reliable fallback is, “The left hate us, the right hate us, that of course means we’re awesome.” It never crosses their mind that if everybody thinks they’re shit, perhaps it’s because they’re shit.
Ruviana
@JPL: And they thought that Joy Reid would be a great lead-in!
Gvg
@Patricia Kayden: more than one thing is going on at a time. The Trump voters are racist and the um journalistic conventional wisdom that they are really voting based on economic anxiety is wrong. If that was the motivating force then choosing Trump would be a mistake. Your own example that the actual poor and the minorities didn’t vote Trump shows that as well as the fact that both Trump and the traditional GOP position will make things worse.
However, there are reasons starting about Reagan, that we all should be worried, economically anxious etc and be trying to make plans to head off the current trends. When I was a child statistics said there was more economic upward mobility. At the time we didn’t predict that ending either. When I was a young adult there were a lot more small companies being started and big ones didn’t dominate to the degree they do now. I was taught in business classes that it was normal for many businesses to fail and you had to have many new ones started in order to have enough to replace the biggies when they failed…etc. things have changed a lot in bad ways. I think the tax policies encouraged CEo saleries to go up, regular wages to go down and mobility to fossilize. I do not have some clear view of it or what to do about it and I know Trump will make it worse. People ought to be worried about it. The Trump voters don’t even see the problem though.
There are also predictions of automation disaster looming. I think that is over hyped myself but it is a reason for economic anxiety. This isn’t mentioned by Trump voters.
The racism problem is so bad right now, I think it’s delaying people seeing the real economic problems.
Another Scott
@Elizabelle: tl;dr – It’s always about political power and defeating Democrats with the “Moral Majority”-types.
Yet again – Jill Lepore at the NewYorker in 2011:
They would support Kim Jung Un or Vlad Putin for President if they thought he would win.
Always, always, watch what they do, not what they say.
Cheers,
Scott.
Tripod
@debbie:
There’s that.
This is a nice time lapse of a railroad bridge replacement in Trump country. Only 20-30 persons on the job site, and the heaviest manual work is opening the grout bags, or the guys climbing into the ditch to measure (because some old fart doesn’t trust the lasers). Not a neckbeard or white power tat in view – it’s all skilled workers, union equipment operators or management, and you gotta pass piss tests for this work.
Once upon a time they did this with 10X the workforce – all the locally based, low skill laborers are gone.
Elizabelle
Back. My roommate the writer has got cabin fever too. She’s showering, and then we’ll go find a coffee or vermouth.
@Patricia Kayden:
You could say “hallelujah.” Although they’re apparently as shitty Christians as they are economists.
(Joking. But you could.)
Mike J
@Another Scott: I don’t think Lepore had it right. Conservatism came first, abortion was just something to hang it on. The Southern Baptist Convention issued a press release praising the Roe v Wade decision when it came out. They didn’t hate abortion until Republicans told them to.
Cheryl from Maryland
I listened to bits of Mr. Minaji’s set at the WHCD this morning. Yeah, I didn’t find him laugh out loud funny. But you know, I thought the selection of a young Muslim Indian American citizen as the headliner was pretty courageous, and I found the optics of his performance and those of Samantha Bee when compared to the Trump rally inspiring.
Another Scott
OK, Elizabelle, here we go, one more time… If it works, it will look funky due to splitting up words that might be problematic…
@Elizabelle: You make some good points. People worry about the future, they worry about ch an ge, and they worry about the lack of progress.
The political press likes to di st ill com pli cated behaviors of tens of millions down to 2-3 sentences, and those di st illations are always wrong.
But political coverage is usually a la gg ing in dic ator.
If we want to cha nge re ality, we have to cha nge re ality and not worry about the national political co verage. I continue to think our best opportunity for cha nging the direction of the ship of state is to get Democratic-lea ning people fired up and willing to do whatever it takes to vote. That means getting informed about registration deadlines and helping to make sure that as many people as possible meet them. That means fighting in court when necessary to prevent additional restrictions from being implemented. It means running candidates for every possible office even if they “don’t have a cha nce opportunity” (it makes the Teabagger spend money and defend their policies and lays a foundation for the future).
It’s a long process, but when Democrats vote, Democrats win – there are more of us than them. Even in Wyoming (Clinton’s worst state) Democrats got nearly 22% of the vote. Small shifts can make a big difference in the EC, so we need to turn out every Democratic vote every single election (even if a particular race can’t be flipped that particular time).
The press likes nothing better than surprises. They get bored by the conventional wisdom and overdogs always winning (even though it’s easy to report) because it doesn’t make people tune in or click on their site. FTFNYTimes and WaPo and Politico and TheHill will be all over lefty causes as we continue to win and show that we aren’t going away. Success builds on success and changes the conversation.
There’s always been an ugly undercurrent in America that hates progress, hates knowledge and science and expertise, hates foreigners (and even people from other states), hates women, hates the young. The fascists rile up those people, but they aren’t a majority. We have to do more to push them back under their rocks and do more to support the commonweal that our predecessors have built.
We’ve got to keep working, keep supporting our candidates, and keep fighting the Teabaggers and Trumpers every single day.
Thanks again to everyone in the trenches fighting for us. You’re doing important work.
My too long $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who wonders if this will post this time…)
(My kingdom for a Preview function…)
Another Scott
@Mike J: I think that’s exactly what’s she’s saying.
Falwell didn’t care about abortion until Viguerie and Weyrich recruited him. Falwell was looking for grifting opportunities (building up his “church”), and Viguerie and Weyrich were looking for ways to divide Democrats to gain more political power. They both benefitted from their cynical alliance.
Cheers,
Scott.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: More like toxic radioactive waste with a half life of elebenty years.
Patricia Kayden
@Mnemosyne:
All objective criteria points to the fact that in the U.S., non-Whites fare worse than Whites in terms of economic success, wages, housing, health, etc. It’s infuriating that Trump voters think otherwise. It’s what happens when alternative facts become one’s worldview. I don’t see how side can appeal to folks who because of their racism cannot see the truth about the status of non-Whites in this country. If they could actually see non-Whites as allies rather than enemies, we could find class-based solutions to problems facing a plethora of Americans regardless of race.
schrodingers_cat
@Yarrow: I saw that thanks! The soil in the valley I live is supposed to be fertile. There are actually 2 working farms in the 2 mile radius of my house. My yard definitely needs some help, though.
tobie
@amk: I think many of Trump’s voters are doing reasonably well but the turn to automation and the housing market collapse in 2008 introduced them to an anxiety they didn’t have before and they found it easy to blame minorities for their plight given their residual racism. Judging from what my right-wing neighbors tell me, everything’s a morality tale for them. They can’t think beyond anecdotes. And they certainly can’t or don’t want to think about what kinds of skills might be needed in an advanced economy. They’ve got their heals dug in. Finding out your skills are obsolete is painful and frightening. I get that. Ignoring this reality is like pissing in the wind.
Mike J
@Another Scott: I’d need to read it closer. I’ve often heard the argument that Catholics and protestants came together because of their mutual hatred of abortion, and this is what made them a potent political force. That’s the origin story that they tell, and is usually repeated by the press.
SiubhanDuinne
@Another Scott:
I don’t even know if this is technically possible, but it would be very useful if Alain the Site Fixer could sync “Your comment is in moderation” with the entire dictionary of forbidden words, so that socialism, casino and booker, for instance, could be highlighted in the commenter’s view and we could fix it immediately without having to beg a front-pager for help.
ETA: Heh. I italicised the forbidden words and attempted to insert the open/close italics tag in the middle — my usual workaround — but obviously I didn’t think it through :-)
Not going to change it. Y’all know what I meant.
Mnemosyne
@Mike J:
I think you misread Lepore. What she’s saying is that Roman Catholic conservatives went to Protestant conservatives like Falwell and suggested making common cause because they could break Catholics away from the Democrats using abortion as a weapon. Falwell agreed, and here we are.
Felonius Monk
@Another Scott:
A thousand times this.
More importantly, I think your analysis is spot on.
Yarrow
@schrodingers_cat: I could bore you silly with discussions about soil. Let me know if you want any recommendations. I have an organic yard/garden so take that into account.
Tokyokie
I can only hope that Humpty Trumpty, to celebrate Loyalty Day, shows his allegiance to the founders’ principles by appointing a special prosecutor to root out all those in his administration whose loyalty is to Russia rather than the United States.
I’m not holding my breath.
Mike J
@SiubhanDuinne: I thought socialism was off the list now.
Try this list.
Mnemosyne
@Mike J:
The official origin story leaves out that Protestants picking up being anti-abortion as a cause was a cynical political ploy, not some magical revelation from Gawd.
Tenar Arha
@Elizabelle: I am positive you’re not saying it isn’t either or, but both and. Yet I’m still having a hard time believing that this explanation of worry about future declines in status for their children is the why.
There’s so many post-election studies by this point which show that the most economically anxious white people didn’t vote for 45. There’s also plenty of evidence for rampant unconscious & conscious sexism and racism.
From my own experience, I walked around in a daze after the election. (TBH, I was sleep deprived already from a crisis with my father, but still….) The one thing I do remember is that I knew that my sadness and fears about 45’s winning would be understood by almost every black person I spoke with who I didn’t even know, while it turned out that I was blindsided by a woman friend who was happy he won because she voted for him. Guess what demographic group she was?
My worst moment was when I realized that even with the clear antisemitism in his campaign, especially at the end, there were probably 30-35% of Jewish people who’d voted for him too. (That also happens to be the proportion of Jewish people who when surveyed register as having racist responses).
Like you and Mnemosyne have discussed, status anxiety is part of these voters’ choice. However, status is so inextricably linked to white supremacy in our country that even a group of people who suffered a historic calamity within living memory voted to be governed by antisemites, by Nazis!
The status anxiety explanation doesn’t address the elephant we in this culture generally cannot see in the room, it only tells us there’s something big here that smells. That elephant’s named white supremacy. His nickname is racism, and he and the patriarchy are simultaneously crushing us all, but gunning for all minorities, foreigners, women and non-Christians first. If we can’t admit that to ourselves, how can we resist him? /bad metaphor
schrodingers_cat
@Tenar Arha: This. The only T voter I know is a Jewish nurse.
Frankensteinbeck
@Elizabelle:
I’m sorry, but I must disagree. This sounds reasonable. It makes sense. But it is wrong. Racism flourishes in times of economic plenty. It skyrocketed during Obama’s administration even though the economy steadily improved. Displays of racism do not track relative to economic opportunity, and have not for at least two generations. They only track relative to public visibility of minorities. These people may be economically anxious, but that is a coincidence. It has almost no bearing on their political choices.
amk
@Tenar Arha:
Bingo. The I can see where they are coming from meme is utter bs. twitler, his fake party, his ‘base’, pox news are all out white supremacy.
Patricia Kayden
@Tenar Arha:
Very well said. I’ll sit back and watch as Senator Sanders reaches out to these “economically anxious” voters who wouldn’t vote for him if he was the only politician running.
dogwood
@Patricia Kayden:
They won’t vote for Elizabeth Warren either.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Elizabelle:
I suspect that some Trump voters (like HRC voters and BS supporters and even Steinies) have genuine concerns about the changing economy and job market and such.
They also happen to be bigoted beyond general measure.
Gian
@Yarrow:
people that have are afraid of losing more than people who have not are. (and the statistics show that by and large white people do have more) That said, Trump’s base are the neo-Nazi Holocaust deniers. The Russia connection is White Christian Identity and hate of Islam. I suspect the links started in the 1990s in the Bosnia/Serbia mess. (the Russians saw themselves as protectors of the Serbs IIRC, and some other big conflict might’ve started when Russia was backing Serbia about 100 years ago)
anyway, my answer to racism and economic anxiety is the question “why not both?”
Ksmiami
@geg6: opioids I hope
J R in WV
@schrodingers_cat:
Gardening and soil thoughts…
For instant results in a yard, plantings or flower garden, you can use Miracle-gro, which is a supplement/fertilizer designed to dissolve in water, which you then pour/sprinkle over the plants/yard you want to fertilize. We use it very diluted on houseplants, and standard dilution on ferns, hostas, day lilies, rhododendrons, even wild flowers like jack-in-the-pulpit and trillium, but rarely.
But that doesn’t improve the soil, at all. You need composted manure and plant material dug deeply into the soil as you plant things to improve the soil health and consistency. Plus using mulch on plants builds up soils as the bottom of the mulch disintegrates into the soil. Using less persistent mulch (as opposed to cypress or pink bark, which is very long lasting) speeds this process. Peat moss and grass trimmings break up faster than pine bark.
You can buy a small composter and put your kitchen scraps, lawn clippings etc into it (in some neighborhoods, others have homeowners associations with rules against organic stuff like that) or just buy or have delivered compost from a garden center or landscape firm.
Where we live you can get manure from neighbors, or get chickens or pigs to keep yourself, and compost that with plant material to use next year on your plants. The composting is important, as it gets things cooking with bacterial activity to break things up and generate heat to kill weed seeds and other bacteria off. But it is much easier to buy it pre-digested from a garden center.
We have friends who keep goats to make cheese, and they will with much groaning and gnashing of teeth give up a truckload of goat-poop mixed with straw and sawdust bedding, which is a great additive for any soil. It does smell some at first, but that’s how you know it’s good and working hard for the soil.
Ksmiami
@FlipYrWhig: which is why I’m kind of ok with the loser white middle age man die off that’s happening
J R in WV
@Yarrow:
@schrodingers_cat:
Organic solutions to soil improvement…. Yay!! The goats I mentioned above, they are organic, and so their barn waste is organic. Over the years I have come to observe that the most organic solutions to farm and soil improvement are the smelliest options. The more bacteria you have working for you, the more smells you are going to generate.
So if you live on a small lot in a way suburban community with a HOA, having a big compost pile with goat poop and rotting spoiled vegetables and such won’t endear you to a selection of your neighbors, even if you are passing out yellow and green and patti-pan squash. So using commercial pre-composted manure products mixed into a vegetable matter compost with mostly lawn clippings and leaves and garden waste might be better.
If you’re in a more enlightened neighborhood, with people having chickens and small farms spread out with residences, you can probably get away with delivery of a PU Truck full of barn waste to mix with your plant matter. By next fall, when it’s ready to spread onto the garden or beds, it won’t smell much, and the goodness will be ready to turn into the soil in spring when you get ready to plant/