I said hey, hey hey, what’s going on

What’s happening here?

If he resigns tomorrow, he went from being a powerful committee chair to a lurking presence in the 2020 Utah governor’s race to a schmuck in a week or so.

What is going on here?

The health policy implication is that this would be one less guaranteed Yes vote for whatever healthcare bill that hits the House Floor. Right now, it looks like there is a minimum blocking coalition of the Tuesday Morning Group members without any House Freedom Caucus members needed. One less Yes vote makes holding that blocking coalition together easier as there is a touch more wiggle room and more deals that lose support at the other end of the caucus would need to be made.

But that all might be irrelevant as there is again talk that there will be no vote on Wednesday. Let’s keep calling just to make sure Congress knows what we think.

Finally, assuming Chaffetz does resign, does it make sense to back the Democrat who was gearing up to challenge him in November, 2018 or does it make sense to back McMullin as a more probable anti-Trump vote in the House? Can both be backed? I don’t know.

347 replies
  1. 1
    TenguPhule says:

    What is going on here?

    Live boy or dead girl.

  2. 2
    Hunter Gathers says:

    Kompromat.

  3. 3
    Doug R says:

    Run a blue 🐕, see what happens.

  4. 4
    MomSense says:

    Woah. McMullin is a right winger and would probably be a yes vote for TrumpDon’tCare so I’d say let’s go with the Dem. She seems to be very popular and has raised a ton of money.

  5. 5
    Timurid says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Live boy and dead girl.

    Both of whom are Russian.

  6. 6
    Mnemosyne says:

    I would be fine with McMullin as an independent who caucuses with the Democrats, but a real Democrat would be even better.

  7. 7
    Spanky says:

    What’s happening here?

    What it is ain’t exactly clear.

  8. 8

    @Mnemosyne: That is my preference order as well; just what is the probability that a Democrat can win that district? I don’t know that.

  9. 9
    Mnemosyne says:

    Adam Schiff is asking me for money for his re-election campaign in 2018, and I think he’s earned it. I’ll throw him a few bucks when my paycheck clears. He’s probably going to be a major Koch target and need to spend more than usual.

    (I am a former constituent, which is why I’m on his mailing list.)

  10. 10
    PaulW says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Live boy, dead girl, confused giraffe.

  11. 11
    Spanky says:

    @Mnemosyne: This past year has been … ummm …. “enlightening” as to how Independents caucusing with Democrats are not the same thing as Democrats

  12. 12
    Corner Stone says:

    The health policy implication is that this would be one less guaranteed Yes vote for whatever healthcare bill that hits the House Floor

    This kills me. Dude is going to jail and the possible vote on AHCA v2 is what is important. Love it!

  13. 13
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @Mnemosyne: I’m considering sending my pittance his way. Is he someone who might be future presidential material, do you think?

  14. 14
    PaulW says:

    guy is a major player – a jerkass, but major player – in the House GOP. For him to just abandon his seat this quickly means something serious (part of me wonders if it’s something the FBI/NSA are uncovering with all the trump-Russia stuff).

  15. 15
    Gravenstone says:

    @TenguPhule: @Hunter Gathers: Either or works.

  16. 16
    clay says:

    I said hey, hey hey, what’s going on

    What going on is that you’re stealing Doug’s shtick.

  17. 17
    randy khan says:

    After his horrible Clinton witch hunt, I suppose it’s too much to hope for that he’s about to be indicted.

  18. 18
    The Moar You Know says:

    Dem won’t win but it’s worth the effort regardless. Never back Republicans.

    I think Chaffetz is in serious trouble. Nobody bails out of elected office like that without a serious and provable sex scandal or criminal charges. IF this is true and he’s leaving, which I have my doubts about.

  19. 19
    Gravenstone says:

    @David Anderson: Likely to depend significantly on just what if anything Chaffetz reveals. If he damages the R brand enough locally, that can only help a Dem challenger.

  20. 20

    @Corner Stone: I stick within my wheelhouse as often as I can

  21. 21
    catclub says:

    @PaulW: Looks like here is the place for this:

    Amidst shock and speculation around insider reports that Chaffetz is refusing to investigate the alleged collusion between Trump’s campaign and transition teams with Russia to influence and win the 2016 presidential election because Russian operatives have threatened to expose compromising information about the congressman, Chaffetz is now considering just leaving without finishing the term.

    Chaffetz did not elaborate as to why this might be so, and the reasoning for Chaffetz’s statement is as yet unknown. One thing that is clear, however, is that something very shady is happening behind the scenes.

    From some bipartisan(!?) website

  22. 22
    rikyrah says:

    This is so suspicious. He was re-elected in NOVEMBER, sworn back in in January, and suddenly in APRIL, he has to be with family?

    Something crooked is happening.

  23. 23
    SC54HI says:

    @Mnemosyne: Would McMullin ever caucus with Democrats?

    He may be principled for a Republican but I can’t see him going along with any D proposals, especially on health care (http://www.ontheissues.org/Eva.....ealth_Care).

    Would LOVE to have “something serious” be an opening indictment in #TrumpRussia but won’t hold breath.

    ETA: sorry for botched link.

  24. 24
    TenguPhule says:

    @randy khan:

    After his horrible Clinton witch hunt, I suppose it’s too much to hope for that he’s about to be indicted.

    12 hours of forced testimony in the house without a bathroom break sounds about right.

  25. 25
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    Resistance DB‏
    @davebernstein

    Following
    More
    Chaffetz has also been having an affair. So, Russian kompromat on him includes this, dark $/campaign finance investigation & Benghazi setup.

  26. 26
    TenguPhule says:

    @rikyrah: Just enough time for his underage mistress to show her pregnancy.

    /It would be irresponsible not to speculate

  27. 27
    Elizabelle says:

    OK, what’s the gossip? Wow.

  28. 28
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    Laura Silverman‏Verified account
    @LauraJSilverman

    Follow
    More
    Replying to @cmclymer
    Word is he was party to cutting security for Benghazi to make Clinton look bad. Real blood on his hands…

  29. 29
    TenguPhule says:

    @SC54HI:

    He may be principled for a Republican

    The only principle Republicans have is to screw non-Republicans.

    Everything else is negotiable.

  30. 30
    opiejeanne says:

    OT because I need to vent:
    Reposted from the end of the previous post.
    Shopping While Mexican:
    My niece recently married a wonderful young man whose family originated in Mexico. I think they’ve been here a little over 100 years: his grandpa is 99 years old and was born here. He’s a good human being, generous, warm-hearted, and lots of fun, and we adore him.
    Yesterday he went into a store where everything costs about a dollar, couldn’t find what he was looking for, and as he walked toward the door the clerk at check-out yelled at him to stop and empty his pockets, saying he had stolen something. He told her that he hadn’t stolen anything, that he wouldn’t empty his pockets, and when she threatened him with the cops he told her to go ahead and call them. The cop asked her if she had seen him take something. She admitted that she hadn’t but that he “looked suspicious”.
    The cop was not amused and informed the idiot that he could sue her ass, that my nephew has grounds for a lawsuit. Meanwhile, he’s being stared at by other shoppers in the store, he’s wearinghis work uniform so they can see who he works for as well as his name, and he is feeling humiliated by the whole thing.
    My niece is busily calling and emailing the top brass in this company because she’s so annoyed but she doesn’t expect a useful response.
    This happened near Mt St Helens but she seemed to think he was in Oregon. She described it as a super-white area.

    I swear, I don’t know how he can be so nice. He got shit on a couple of days ago for being Mexican, and before the wedding one of her aunts asked him if he was legal; the rest of the family yelled at this aunt but there was a fear she’d call ICE and they’d show up at the wedding. I don’t know how to make this better and it infuriates me.

  31. 31
    gwangung says:

    @Mnemosyne: Adam Schiff? Based on his public performance to date, how does he NOT deserve support?

  32. 32

    @randy khan: I want this so much, I’m ready to weep.

  33. 33
    Millard Filmore says:

    @PaulW:

    For him to just abandon his seat this quickly means something serious

    I do not see how leaving Congress improves his situation if he is involved in accepting Russian help in the election. Is his committee so important that the IC does not want him blocking an investigation?

  34. 34
    Betty Cracker says:

    I thought something fishy was going on when he announced he wasn’t running for reelection, but if he doesn’t even finish out his term, that’s the whole damn seafood market! Probably merely a personal scandal rather than getting his balls caught in Putin’s vice (I don’t think Jesus loves us that much).

  35. 35
    germy says:

    WTF?

    Laura Silverman‏Verified account
    @LauraJSilverman

    Word is he was party to cutting security for Benghazi to make Clinton look bad. Real blood on his hands…

  36. 36
    MattF says:

    Hmph. I had a suspicion that he’d be gone. Where’s the nearest island where an ex-Congressman can go?

  37. 37
    Gravenstone says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: This was known, wasn’t it? I mean he has openly bragged about cutting funding for diplomatic facilities in general.

  38. 38
    trollhattan says:

    Another red seat that’s ripe for turning, has a contendah’.

    On November 8, Texas’s 32nd congressional district voted for Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump by a margin of 48.5 to 46.6 percent. And yet, the district’s incumbent Republican congressman Pete Sessions won reelection by over 50 points — because no Democrat ran against him.

    The donkey party won’t be letting Sessions off that easy in 2018. This week, Colin Allred, a former NFL player and current civil-rights lawyer, announced that he plans to paint the Dallas suburbs blue next year.

    “I was born and raised in this district by a single mother who taught in Dallas public schools for 27 years,” Allred, whose résumé includes stints with the Tennessee Titans and Obama-era Housing department, told the Dallas Morning News Wednesday. “This community — my mom, my teachers, and my coaches — gave me the opportunity to succeed, play in the NFL, become a civil-rights attorney, and work for President Obama. I want to make sure future generations have the same opportunities and to make sure those values are being represented in D.C.”

    Hasten to add they do like them some football there in Texas.

  39. 39
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Just enough time for his underage mistress to show her pregnancy.

    Or his cancelled check to the abortionist.

    But I’m more inclined to go with kompromat than another tawdry old sex scandal. Not saying both couldn’t be true, of course, but Republicans who stray generally just do a tearful presser (loyal spouse at side), ask for forgiveness and privacy, return to their jobs, and keep on grifting.

  40. 40
    rikyrah says:

    @randy khan:

    After his horrible Clinton witch hunt, I suppose it’s too much to hope for that he’s about to be indicted.

    not too much to hope for at all…

  41. 41
    rikyrah says:

    @opiejeanne:

    Vent away.

    He is calm because this has happened before…

    And, it will happen again…

    and, depending on genetics, will more than likely happen to their children.

  42. 42
    David 🍁Canadian Anchor Baby🍁 Koch says:

    Resistance DB‏ @davebernstein

    According to a former Jason Chaffetz staffer, Chaffetz is also the subject of an ongoing investigation for campaign finance fraud.

    7 replies 146 retweets 205 likes

    Resistance DB‏ @davebernstein 38m38 minutes ago

    A friend of Chaffetz at FBI told him the investigation could not be kept quiet for much longer, that Intel committee would soon find info on

    6 replies 104 retweets 184 likes

  43. 43
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @Gravenstone:

    Yes, of course it’s old news. I think what’s happening now though is it’s on record – RNC hacked emails? – that he conspired with Erik Prince to make sure that embassy security was cut TO MAKE IT A PROBLEM, SPECIFICALLY, FOR HILLARY CLINTON. There’s also campaign funds misuse, and other #kompromat.

  44. 44
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Betty Cracker: if he’s been putting out feelers about getting a TV job, and the avalanche hit O’Reilly in the last week, that would make a lot more sense, even if I think he’s a bad fit for the job, on a show I’ve never and will never watch

  45. 45
    hovercraft says:

    @randy khan:

    I suppose it’s too much to hope for that he’s about to be indicted.

    No, not too much to ask at all. With the GOP it’s always projection, all that time screaming about Benghazi and e-ghazi, they all knew it was them doing illegal shit.

  46. 46
    Repatriated says:

    @Gravenstone:

    This was known, wasn’t it? I mean he has openly bragged about cutting funding for diplomatic facilities in general.

    Known, yes. What might be new is a written or recorded instance of boasting of having done so for explictitly political motives rather than out of generic austerity.

    ETA: and The Conster beat me to it.

  47. 47
    Corner Stone says:

    @David Anderson: That’s fine and all, but I don’t see any mention of a dildo on the vote counting floor anywhere.

  48. 48
    trollhattan says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:
    David Vitter wholeheartedly agrees with your notion.

  49. 49

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: This seems off the deep end to me.

  50. 50
    dm says:

    Sex scandals don’t usually have much impact on Republicans, though I suppose we are talking Utah here. A female partner is just polygamy — no problem there? Live boy it is.

  51. 51
    David 🍁Canadian Anchor Baby🍁 Koch says:

    Louise Mensch‏ @LouiseMensch Apr 13

    Sources say there is kompromat on @jasoninthehouse; that this is why he turned and that @fbi know it. #traitorinthehouse

    506 replies 3,307 retweets 4,848 likes

    She posted this a week ago. She’s like radar.

  52. 52
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @trollhattan:

    David Vitter was the template I had in mind.

  53. 53
    burnspbesq says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Dude is going to jail

    You wish (actually, we both wish, but one of us undersands that the obstacles to that outcome are, as a practical matter, insurmountable).

  54. 54
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @dm:

    Live boy it is.

    Make it a live Russian boy and you’ve got a deal.

  55. 55
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    Too many connections to Russia, Trump, his inner circle, his appointments and Congressmen for it to all be coincidental.

  56. 56
    geg6 says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    That is what I keep thinking. I can’t think of many Republicans who stepped down over your average sex scandal. They may lose their next election, but they don’t usually step down. It’s only Dems that seem to be forced to do that.

    It has to be something bigger than that. And the rumor that he’s getting Bill O’Reilly’s spot doesn’t pass the smell test for me. I’m sure he’ll find a way to get some of that wingnut welfare, but I have a hard time seeing FOX betting big on a completely untested guy when they have Tucker Carlson apparently doing well in the ratings. Last I heard ol’ Tucker was getting Bill’s show.

  57. 57
    TaMara (HFG) says:

    …and once again, I can’t go to lunch without coming back to something weird happening in the world of politics.

    Even GWB wasn’t this exhausting – thought exasperating in his own right.

  58. 58
    catclub says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    that he conspired with Erik Prince to make sure that embassy security was cut TO MAKE IT A PROBLEM, SPECIFICALLY, FOR HILLARY CLINTON.

    I would put the probability of this at 0%. How do know which safe-house/consulate will be attacked ahead of time?
    How do you control the executive branch from the Legislature?

  59. 59
    Bess says:

    @David 🍁Canadian Anchor Baby🍁 Koch:

    She posted this a week ago. She’s like radar.

    Does anyone keep reliability data on her forecasts?

  60. 60
    Corner Stone says:

    @burnspbesq: I will grant “improbable” or “unlikely” but not “insurmountable”.

  61. 61
    rikyrah says:

    @David 🍁Canadian Anchor Baby🍁 Koch:

    Louise Mensch‏ @LouiseMensch Apr 13

    Sources say there is kompromat on @jasoninthehouse; that this is why he turned and that @fbi know it. #traitorinthehouse

    506 replies 3,307 retweets 4,848 likes

    I said this morning…I think she’s bonkers, but if she turns out to be right on the Russia stuff?

    I will happily eat crow.

  62. 62
    Fair Economist says:

    @Gravenstone:

    This was known, wasn’t it? I mean he has openly bragged about cutting funding for diplomatic facilities in general.

    Probably there was some kind of communication where he said they were cutting security to get some diplomat killed so they could go after Clinton for it. It’s pretty obvious that was the intent, but there’s never been any *direct* proof that they were deliberately trying to endanger Americans.

    Special karma points if it’s an email.

  63. 63
  64. 64
    David 🍁Canadian Anchor Baby🍁 Koch says:

    Nick Walden Poublon‏ @NWPinPDX

    So much winning! Tomi Lahren fired, Beck sued. O’Reilly w/o a show, Milo’s book kaput, Alex Jones is sorry and Chaffetz going home. Win!

    6 replies 56 retweets 125 likes

  65. 65
    SatanicPanic says:

    @SC54HI: He might go along with impeachment though.

  66. 66
    kindness says:

    I figure the speed of Jason’s departure means some really bad news about him is about to be released. What could it be?
    1) Pics of him in bed with a) a dead girl or b) a live boy?
    2) FBI transcripts of him speaking with Russian agents?

    It would be irresponsible not to speculate.

  67. 67
    Betty Cracker says:

    @David 🍁Canadian Anchor Baby🍁 Koch: She’s also a fucking kook. Don’t get me wrong; I hope she’s right! She seems to have some sources and has published a couple of scoops. But I ain’t forgetting she’s a crackpot.

  68. 68
    Fair Economist says:

    @catclub:

    I would put the probability of this at 0%. How do know which safe-house/consulate will be attacked ahead of time?
    How do you control the executive branch from the Legislature?

    They didn’t know which one would be attacked, but it’s a good bet that one would eventually. They control the purse strings and the budget cuts *forced* Obama/Clinton to cut security. They couldn’t control what specifically got cut but they didn’t need to.

  69. 69
    burnspbesq says:

    @TenguPhule:

    She would have been whisked away to the nearest Florence Crittenton Center long before that happened, with a promise that her legal fees for the adoption would be covered and the whole thing would be covered up so that the admissions office at BYU would never find out.

  70. 70
    Repatriated says:

    @catclub:

    I would put the probability of this at 0%. How do know which safe-house/consulate will be attacked ahead of time?
    How do you control the executive branch from the Legislature?

    The intemt might have been to weaken embassy/consulate security generally, to make all of them more vulnerable with the objective of enabling some incident somewhere that could be politically exploited.

    ETA: I really should know better than to try to keep up when typing on a phone…

  71. 71
    glory b says:

    @opiejeanne: SHE’D CALL ICE TO SHOW UP AT THE WEDDING????

    I can’t think of anything that anyone in my family could do that would make this a reasonable reaction.

    But I live in Homewood, Pittsburgh, PA, the home of the “stop snitching” movement.

  72. 72
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    Laura Silverman‏Verified account
    @LauraJSilverman

    Follow
    More
    Replying to @cmclymer
    Word is he was party to cutting security for Benghazi to make Clinton look bad. Real blood on his hands…

    Holy fucking shit

  73. 73
    Corner Stone says:

    @Bess:

    Does anyone keep reliability data on her forecasts?

    The only thing I will say as a positive about Mensch is that she says specific, trackable, BS. If she’s right at some point you can kind of parse it out. When she’s wrong or things do not pan out, you can keep score on that also too.
    Unlike people like Rick Wilson or Liz Mair who always hint vague and darkly about lots of Big Bad Things coming, all the time. Then if something happens they take credit. If nothing happens they say they tried, or it’s deferred for now.
    I still find Mensch nutso most of the time. But like rikyrah says, crow will be served here if all the delightful gifts she is talking about are delivered.

  74. 74
    Yarrow says:

    Supposedly he’s been having a years-long affair. Such a good Mormon. They’ve got the kompromat on him. What do they have on Ryan and McConnell?

  75. 75
    manyakitty says:

    @Corner Stone: I usually glance at her, then closely read Jester.

  76. 76
    trollhattan says:

    @David 🍁Canadian Anchor Baby🍁 Koch:
    Speaking of Alex Jones, this is too good to ignore.

    Right-wing conspiracy theorist Alex Jones on Thursday told a jury that he believes George Soros is somehow behind a plot to make the effects of smoking marijuana stronger than ever before. As reported by BuzzFeed’s Charlie Warzel, Jones was asked about his drug and alcohol use by attorney Bobby Newman, who is representing Jones’ ex-wife Kelly in the custody battle over the couple’s three children.

    During his testimony, Jones claimed that he smoked marijuana once a year to “monitor its strength,” and he claimed that its gotten progressively stronger over the years — and he thinks that George Soros is somehow involved.

    “George Soros has brain damaged a lot of people,” Jones said, according to reporter Texas Monthly reporter Dan Solomon.

    Elsewhere in his testimony, Jones told the jury that eating large bowls of chili had adverse affects on his ability to remember things, although he said that he made sure to not eat a large bowl of chili before appearing in court on Thursday.

    Kind of contradicts his claim that the personality is “an act” given he can’t even tame himself on the stand in court.

  77. 77
    geg6 says:

    @rikyrah:

    I’ll tell you what, I saw her on Bill Maher’s show a few weeks ago and, even knowing her reputation, I was drawn in by her. She had a good sense of humor, she didn’t come off as bonkers at all and she was like a sharp dagger taking as many swipes at Dolt 45 as she could. I know what everyone says about her, but she’s been right a lot and she certainly doesn’t come off as a nutcase, at least for the small amount of time I saw her. I’m always going to be a little leery of her pronouncements because people I trust keep saying she’s nuts, but more and more I’m taking note of what she says just in case she’s not as nuts as those people think.

  78. 78
    trollhattan says:

    @Yarrow:
    Hey now, the affairs are fine (polygamy!) but drinking coffee is right out!

  79. 79

    @opiejeanne: Some BJers are ready to throw non-citizens under the bus be they on H1-Bs or the undocumented to get into the good graces of “reasonable Republicans” or because its politically expedient. Little do they realize, that no one is really safe in T’s regime. You could be of the wrong religion or ethnicity or think the wrong thoughts, for you to be considered expendable. We need to stand together against all bigotry.

  80. 80
    Weaselone says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    WTF are you talking about?

  81. 81
    geg6 says:

    @trollhattan:

    Good god, he’s a seriously mentally ill person. Horrible that he’s been allowed to poison our political atmosphere the way he has, but I almost feel sorry for him. Almost.

  82. 82
    Citizen Alan says:

    @germy:

    God does not love me enough for there to be Ironclad incontrovertible proof that the Republicans intentionally caused the security lapse at Benghazi for which they’ve been blaming Hillary and Obama for 5 damned years.

  83. 83
    burnspbesq says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Count the number of DOJ employees who have to commit career suicide in order to make a prosecution happen. Then count the number of white men on the jury.

    One, two, three, insurmountable.

  84. 84
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @catclub:

    I would put the probability of this at 0%. How do know which safe-house/consulate will be attacked ahead of time?

    What if the republicans were in contact with the terrorists? That would have sounded absurd not too long ago, but after all the treason we now know they have committed…

  85. 85
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @geg6:

    I’m inching off the fence on to her side. I don’t think she’s nuts at all.

  86. 86
    🌷 Martin says:

    @opiejeanne:

    I swear, I don’t know how he can be so nice.

    As a latino friend of mine told me ages ago: What choice do I have?

  87. 87
    ET says:

    Someone told me that there was some dossier or some report/information coming out about how the Russians or someone may have gotten him money and women. Snopes is not the case.

  88. 88
    Bess says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Still going for that no loaf at all thing?

  89. 89

    @TenguPhule: A higher-paying job might have been entirely sufficient. What ever happened to two weeks’ notice?

    @trollhattan: Lots of religions are down on alcohol, some on nicotine, the Mormons (uniquely as far as I am aware) are down on caffeine; but no religion is down on sugar. Discuss.

  90. 90
    Gravenstone says:

    @Fair Economist: Well, we want to take a deep dive into tin foil hat conspiracy cuckoo land … If Prince was indeed involved, his line of work would certainly afford him contacts where he might influence targets, no?

    Okay, my brain hurts even contemplating that convoluted mess.

  91. 91
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @Steve in the ATL:

    Andrea Chalupa‏Verified account @AndreaChalupa 3h3 hours ago
    More
    Replying to @AndreaChalupa @jasoninthehouse
    1. Months ago, I heard an interesting theory from credible source about why GOP intentionally sought to cut budget for security at Benghazi.
    Andrea Chalupa‏Verified account @AndreaChalupa 3h3 hours ago

    2. Why would a small Welsh firm, totally ill-equipped for a conflict zone, get the contract for Benghazi?
    Andrea Chalupa‏Verified account @AndreaChalupa 3h3 hours ago
    More
    3. One theory: this was a set-up to ensnare SOS Hillary in a scandal to weaken her in her inevitable presidential race.
    Andrea Chalupa‏Verified account @AndreaChalupa 3h3 hours ago
    More
    4. Bonus for Erik Prince: weakening Hillary & electing GOP president would expand his business from US government, like embassy contracts

  92. 92
    divF says:

    @trollhattan: One of my favorite minor ironies is that the original Peet’s coffee in Berkeley (where Alfred Peet started the U.S. coffee revolution in 1966) is across the street from a Mormon church.

    I still go to that store for my morning coffee every day.

  93. 93
    geg6 says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I think that’s stating it a bit strongly. Lots of people have issues with the H1-B situation that are perfectly reasonable issues to have and have nothing to do with discrimination against any immigrants. And I have not seen a single comment by any BJers that could in any way be characterized as slagging on undocumented immigrants. And the idea that anyone here is sucking up to Republicans or willing to trash immigrants of any kind for political expediency is simply ridiculous. I saw your previous argument and you got an apology and further explanation that seemed to bring up reasonable criticism of the H1-B process. I think you have taken this way too personally and are not thinking clearly before posting. I can sympathize because I have done it myself on issues I felt strongly about.

  94. 94
    TenguPhule says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Some BJers are ready to throw non-citizens under the bus be they on H1-Bs or the undocumented to get into the good graces of “reasonable Republicans” or because its politically expedient.

    For crying out loud, are you really going to try this again? You aren’t going to find support among the general American public for the H1-B program. Its just not there. The whole thing is a bit more complicated then just your worrying about the visa holders.

  95. 95
    Betty Cracker says:

    @geg6 & @the Conster, la Citoyenne: Here’s one of the pronouncements that make me suspect she’s a kook:

  96. 96
    Gravenstone says:

    @trollhattan: Someone should tell the “performance artist” that a jury trial is the wrong venue for his act.

  97. 97
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    I get it, but given what we know/suspect now, is that so crazy?

  98. 98
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Frank Wilhoit:

    the Mormons (uniquely as far as I am aware) are down on caffeine;

    Christian Scientists theoretically don’t use caffeine either, although my CS grandmother did enjoy her coffee :-)

  99. 99
    TenguPhule says:

    @geg6:

    I think you have taken this way too personally and are not thinking clearly before posting.

    This this this.

    Forgive us for not being willing to run straight into the machine guns awaiting us on the other side of No Man’s Land.

  100. 100
    bluehill says:

    Supposedly the rooskies hacked the repubs too. If true, I’ve been wondering when and how this info would be used. Putting on my conspiracy hat, Chaffetz’s abrupt 180 from condemning and then supporting Trump seemed odd, but he’s an opportunist so it was easy to rationalize. This latest turn doesn’t seem to fit as neatly. Given the various rumors out there, I wonder if the rooskies are starting to use some of the info they hacked. Not sure what their goal would be though (other than global domination).

  101. 101
    geg6 says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Yeah well, but she just states it as a belief. I know a lot of people who have kooky beliefs (pretty much anyone who believes in a religion is suspect in my eyes) but who are pretty good at what they do. She’s just another one.

  102. 102
    Yarrow says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: @geg6: So far Louise has been pretty spot on. She also admits when she’s wrong. She revises her views as new evidence is uncovered. She started by saying #PresidentPence and was pretty firm that he was out of the loop with the Russian stuff. Her sources have given her enough information of his involvement, along with Ryan and McConnell that she’s moved to #President Hatch. I appreciate that she’s willing to say she was wrong and change as she gets new info.

  103. 103
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @PaulW:

    Live boy, dead girl, confused giraffe.

    large aquarium full of dead fish and ruined wet suite at friend’s house…

  104. 104
    Corner Stone says:

    @burnspbesq: Congresspersons aren’t the fucking Pope. Quite a few have had their asses handed to them on a range of legal issues.
    Improbable, yes. I want it to play out but that’s just a want to. Let’s see what, if anything, they actually have on him. What if there is a tape or video of money laundering? Tape of campaign finance skullduggery?
    Neither are beyond the pale to consider as to why he was re-elected a couple months ago and now may be home in time to be smoking some pot on his porch at 4:20 UT time.

  105. 105
    Weaselone says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:
    Sounds like BS. I could imagine the generalized cutting of embassy security funds with vague notion of exploiting any tragedy that resulted from those cuts, but specifically targeting Benghazi seems ludicrous and stories to this affect seem likely to be ratfucking.

  106. 106
    Seanly says:

    Hmm, I don’t know enough to speculate as to the cause, but if he resigns it must be a doozie.

  107. 107
    mai naem mobile says:

    I don’t see how the Benghazi security would be a big deal because he would just bs his way out of it. My money is a bribe or some obvious financial quid pro quo or an affair. Being from socially conservative Mormon Utah, I am thinking an affair.

  108. 108
    David 🍁Canadian Anchor Baby🍁 Koch says:

    Tulsi Gabbard: “I’m not here to call names. I applaud AG Sessions for his fight against Radical Islamic Terror”

    The Manchurian Candidate.

  109. 109

    @Weaselone: Such commenters are few and far between but they do exist. For example, there was a commenter the other day who was arguing that giving up a path to citizenship for the undocumented, including the DACA kids is a way to get immigration reform done.

    ETA: For H-1B sentiments, refer to this thread.

  110. 110
    TenguPhule says:

    @geg6:

    but more and more I’m taking note of what she says just in case she’s not as nuts as those people think.

    See in fiction, the plot has to make sense.

  111. 111
    Geeno says:

    He’s clearly retiring so he spend more time with his defense attorneys.

  112. 112
    TenguPhule says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: Doubtful, no rope burns on his neck.

  113. 113
    hovercraft says:

    Your Attorney General America
    Sessions ‘Amazed’ Judge On ‘An Island In The Pacific’ Blocked Trump Travel Ban
    Via TPM

    Attorney General Jeff Sessions can’t believe that a federal judge based on “an island in the Pacific”—what the rest of us simply call Hawaii—was able to block President Donald Trump’s executive order barring immigrants from a handful of majority-Muslim countries.

    “We are confident that the President will prevail on appeal and particularly in the Supreme Court, if not the Ninth Circuit,” Sessions said in a Wednesday night interview on “The Mark Levin” radio show, first flagged by CNN’s KFILE. “So this is a huge matter. I really am amazed that a judge sitting on an island in the Pacific can issue an order that stops the President of the United States from what appears to be clearly his statutory and Constitutional power.”

    I can’t believe this fucking moron is our AG, Twitler really has a talent for elevating the most despicable people in the world. The democrats are hitting back.

    Hawaii Dems Swiftly Hit Sessions For ‘Island In The Pacific’ Remark

    awaii’s Democratic senators on Thursday quickly went after Attorney General Jeff Sessions for questioning how a federal judge from the Aloha State, which he instead referred to as “an island in the Pacific,” was able to block the Trump administration’s travel ban.

    “Hey Jeff Sessions, this #IslandinthePacific has been the 50th state for going on 58 years. And we won’t succumb to your dog whistle politics,” Sen. Mazie Hirono wrote on Twitter, adding that the attorney general’s remarks were “ignorant & dangerous.”

  114. 114
    mdblanche says:

    OT: more violence in Paris. No good can come from this so close to the election.

  115. 115
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    Claude Taylor‏
    @TrueFactsStated

    Following
    More
    I asked a Senate staffer-what caused Feinstein’s reax after being briefed a while back. “They were shown evidence of Trump’s collusion”.

    IT’S HAPPENING.

  116. 116

    @hovercraft: They love otherize people, don’t they?

  117. 117
    Betty Cracker says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: Yeah, I think it is. I don’t believe the LA coroner’s office was in on the murder or that Breitbart’s family and friends who said he had heart issues were all lying to further Putin’s scheme. I don’t think Putin foresaw in 2012 that Breitbart’s sites would be influential enough to drive election coverage four years later, and if he had, he needn’t have offed Breitbart, who pretty much agreed with Bannon’s worldview and would have backed Trump enthusiastically all on his own.

    ETA: I don’t even think Trump knew he’d run for president last year in 2012. A lot of this is dumb (and bad!) luck, IMO, which Putin and minions were smart enough to exploit.

  118. 118
    ruemara says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: This would explain why his official twitters is posting links to get to know his wife.
    @geg6: You can be stark raving mad and correct on quite a few issues. Like me.

  119. 119
    Bess says:

    I wonder if the rooskies are starting to use some of the info they hacked.

    Perhaps the FBI is about to start calling people in for discussions and one of Chaffetz’s colleagues on the intelligence committee gave him a head’s up.

    Speculation is fun….

  120. 120
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @Weaselone:

    At this point, knowing how many strands to this web there are, I’m open to anything and everything.

  121. 121
    TenguPhule says:

    @hovercraft: Not surprised. Lots of people in the main 48 still don’t realize we are actually a state. Even during election season.

  122. 122
    SatanicPanic says:

    @David 🍁Canadian Anchor Baby🍁 Koch: Tulsi is the worst. Thanks Bernie for convincing the dumb left that she’s great.

  123. 123
    Seanly says:

    @Frank Wilhoit:

    The prohibition on caffeine isn’t cut & dry, but you do have more soda choices in SLC (like both Sprite & Sprite Zero). Also, Mormons are known to not be big sticklers. Couple of examples from work –
    1) We all have laughs at our White Elephant exchanges when the Mormons end up with the liquor & wine.
    2) Heard a few folks say to always take at least 2 Mormons fishing ‘coz if you just take 1 he’ll drink all your beer.

  124. 124
    mdblanche says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: “Gay?! I wish! If I were gay they’d be no problem! No, what I have is a romantic abnormality, one so unbelievable that it must be hidden from the public at all cost.”

  125. 125
    trollhattan says:

    @Frank Wilhoit: @SiubhanDuinne:
    Also, too, Adventists. A non-practicing Adventist GF had tales of her parents serving decaf to overnight house guests and the more coffee-addicted getting these inexplicable headaches. Guess full disclosure was optional.

  126. 126
    mai naem mobile says:

    I hope if Prince is invloved then Betsy Devos gets caught up in the net as well and they can do some hard time with Jared and Ivanka.

  127. 127
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    He was a rageaholic, but I was just watching a show on TV the other night – a legit station/show – about the various chemical agents that Putin’s FSB developed that kill without warning or trace, and look like other normal things. Chemical agents that even our guys don’t have, supposedly.

  128. 128
    Yarrow says:

    @hovercraft: What is it with Republicans and Hawaii? It wasn’t Real Murka when Obama went there, even though he grew up there. Apparently it still isn’t real.

    Speaking of Hawaii, I hope the good citizens there send Tulsi Gabbard packing and elect someone less traitorous.

  129. 129
    trollhattan says:

    @Seanly:
    My go-to joke, as related by a “jack-Mormon”:
    How do you keep your Mormon fishing buddy from drinking all your beer?
    Bring a second Mormon.

  130. 130
    rikyrah says:

    @hovercraft:

    Your Attorney General America
    Sessions ‘Amazed’ Judge On ‘An Island In The Pacific’ Blocked Trump Travel Ban

    Attorney.General.White.Citizens.Council.

  131. 131
    ruemara says:

    @🌷 Martin: Pretty much. I’ve developed a very good nonresponsive face. What else can I do?

    @David 🍁Canadian Anchor Baby🍁 Koch: *sigh* I am as pissed at Wilmer for propping up that hatemonger as I am at McCain for introducing us to La Palin.

  132. 132
  133. 133
    opiejeanne says:

    @glory b: Yes, but her other aunt kept her busy after sitting her down for a talking-to, so ICE didn’t show up but there was a bit of a panic because at least one guest is not legal, not that she knew. I had to talk a couple of people down who were really worried including the groom and the bride.

  134. 134
    TenguPhule says:

    @Yarrow: Working on it. But she’s popular among our conservatives (who would be Republicans except for the fact that only Democrats have any power here) and her district is more conservative then most (for us),

  135. 135
    geg6 says:

    It’s days like this that I’d like to sit down and have a glass of wine (and a martini for her, apparently) with Hillary and see what she has to say about it all.

  136. 136

    @TenguPhule:
    Which is why fiction is more satisfying than life.

  137. 137
    SC54HI says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Not surprised. Lots of people in the main 48 still don’t realize we are actually a state. Even during election season.

    True, and that includes Cokie Roberts.

    Re: Louise Mensch. She’s nuts but appears to have some good sources, at least once in a while.

  138. 138
    jl says:

    Man I don’t know what to think, the way things are going. One of our Commander’s generals says that some little weirdo island in the Pacific Ocean has taken us over and they decide everything now. I’m confused and scared.

  139. 139
    Yarrow says:

    @TenguPhule: Glad to hear you’re all working on it. Maybe once her treason is exposed the folks in her district won’t look upon her so kindly.

  140. 140
    ruemara says:

    @geg6: That would be a hell of a conversation

  141. 141
    ByRookorbyCrook says:

    Mensch is a really good at finding trees and never seeing a forest. Brexit is the will of the citizens of the U.K. and there was no foreign influence on one end and Breitbart being murdered on the other. She has been dogged on the Trump/Russia connection for almost a year, however. Just always verify with others.
    Chaffetz is jumping ship before news dump Friday. Tomorrow may be an interesting time in D.C.

  142. 142
    burnspbesq says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Quite a few have had their asses handed to them on a range of legal issues.

    True, but none of those things happened with a crooked crackpot in the White House and a lickspittle stooge at Main Justice.

    Review Sessions’ record as U.S. Attorney for SDAla, and then tell me I’m crazy to be so Goddamn cynical.

  143. 143

    @TenguPhule:Yes I agree, that the issue is complicated. I have never said otherwise. Corporate bad actors have exploited the provisions of the visa.

  144. 144
    TenguPhule says:

    @Yarrow: Uphill slog though. She’s national guard and we’re really military friendly here (lots and lots of bases) plus she has personal charisma and again, her district has a lot of conservatives in it, DINO country.

  145. 145
    Betty Cracker says:

    @opiejeanne: I hope the racist asshole aunt was not invited to the wedding!

  146. 146
    opiejeanne says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I saw some of that exchange a few days ago, and I am worried right down to my bones for my friends and family who are not the “right” color/religion/party. Hell, I’m the wrong gender and have “wrong thoughts” and my whiteness won’t save me if the nutcases really have their way.

  147. 147
    Hkedi says:

    @Yarrow: Also Hawai’i is very left leaning and has a strong union presence, two more strikes against us in the Islands. Never mind that we were essentially conquered by the US with the coup against the queen and the counter-coup put down by US marines. We got over that (mostly).

  148. 148
    bemused says:

    @hovercraft:

    The depths of stupidity in the modern GOP is breathtaking.

  149. 149
    Barbara says:

    Chaffetz used his campaign funds to pay for the five star hotel where he had sex with Erik Prince while they plotted to cut funding for Benghazi? This thread is like a game of telephone.

  150. 150
    bluehill says:

    @Bess: It certainly is an escape from the reality we’re in.

  151. 151
    TenguPhule says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I have never said otherwise.

    Yes you have. You want Democrats to make a futile feel good gesture of defiance to try and defend H1-B visa holders (presumably through legislation and public support) when they are in the minority and the well known problems with the program itself due to corporate exploitation of the system make the whole thing radioactive in public opinion.

  152. 152
    low-tech cyclist says:

    Congress won’t touch health care next week because they’ll barely have time to avoid a government shutdown, coming your way at 12:01AM Saturday, April 29. (That’s midway through Day 99 of the Trump Defenestration.)

  153. 153
    SC54HI says:

    @Yarrow:

    Maybe once her treason is exposed the folks in her district won’t look upon her so kindly.

    People are on it. Her popularity is going down. She’s been playing both sides to the middle for a long time and it’s finally catching up with her, Butler cult sycophants notwithstanding.

  154. 154
    divF says:

    @SC54HI: Hawaii ranks 40th in population as of 2017. The nine states with fewer people are: the Dakotas, Alaska, Wyoming, Montana, RI, NH, Vermont and Delaware. I doubt that JBS would want to discount the opinions of all the good white people in those states.

  155. 155

    @TenguPhule: This is your interpretation and not what I have actually said.

  156. 156
    hovercraft says:

    @TenguPhule:
    Yet somehow no one seems to have a problem remembering that Alaska is a state. Gee I wonder what’s different.

  157. 157
    TenguPhule says:

    @SC54HI:

    and that includes Cokie Roberts.

    The things Cokie doesn’t realize are legion.

  158. 158
    Yarrow says:

    @TenguPhule: There are some young veterans who are running as Democrats in red states, so there have to be some vets in Hawaii who could be persuaded to run. Even if they are more conservative it would have to be better than Assad’s favorite American traitor, Tulsi Gabbard.

  159. 159
    Elizabelle says:

    OK, back. Finished the dinner dishes; poured another glass of wine. Do we know why Chaffetz gave it the heave ho yet? What has happened? Will read upthread now.

  160. 160
    Elizabelle says:

    @TenguPhule: This is so mean, but when I saw that Cokie Roberts’ rescue dog ran away (and, ultimately, met a sad fate), I was not surprised.

  161. 161
    Weaselone says:

    @hovercraft: Hawaiian vocanoes are shield volcanoes while Alaskan volcanoes are stratovolcanoes?

  162. 162
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @mdblanche: Yes.

    Joking aside, the imagination fails as to what outside something like Troy Clure’s fish obsession that would shame a Republican out of office. Christi was caught harassing his own constitutes after all and there he is, still in officer and under 20% approval.

  163. 163
    glory b says:

    @opiejeanne: Police for drunk and disorderly? Not my fam, but okay, I understand. But ICE? Bless her heart.

  164. 164
    germy says:

    @Elizabelle: Jen Rubin says resigning was his only good option:

    Chaffetz no doubt figured that he was in a no-win position. Do his oversight job, and the Trump mob would pillory him. Avoid his responsibility, and his political opponents and the press would bash him.

  165. 165
    TenguPhule says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    This is your interpretation and not what I have actually said.

    Pot. Kettle. You were flinging insults willynilly accusing one and all here about being out to get people like you just because we weren’t willing to commit electoral suicide by rushing out to defend H1-B holders to our last breath.

  166. 166
    TenguPhule says:

    @Yarrow: The problem is her district. Again, DINO country.

  167. 167
    hovercraft says:

    @TenguPhule:
    Sorry not seeing her charisma, I have this little problem, I don’t really care about how eloquent and exciting your speeches are, I care about the actual words you speak and what they mean. This is why I never could get on the “revolution” bandwagon, none of the proposals had a snowballs chance in hell.

    @Barbara:

    Chaffetz used his campaign funds to pay for the five star hotel where he had sex with Erik Prince while they plotted to cut funding for Benghazi?

    While Putin stood at the window recording them. The tape was then given to Paul Manfort who used it to get Flynn to do something?

  168. 168
    Ric Drywall says:

    @germy: That Jennifer Rubin article argues that this is all about politics, not about scandal. I think it is 6-7 hours old, maybe written before we know Chaffetz was going away ASAP.

  169. 169
    TenguPhule says:

    @hovercraft: Oil and gold. We just have the best seafood. And beaches. And no snakes.

  170. 170
    germy says:

    @Ric Drywall: Well maybe Friday will be an interesting news day.

  171. 171
    zhena gogolia says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    whoa!

    I am so itching for this whole cabal of creepy critters to get nailed! Please, Lordy, let it happen! Господи, спаси нашу бедную родину! Большинство из нас хорошие люди!

  172. 172
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Gravenstone: I’m so old that I remember when “performance art” was something only decadent liberals did.

  173. 173
    geg6 says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I saw it when it was new. I don’t agree with Bess, but I also don’t see where she was trying to suck up to Republicans or was demonizing anyone who is an immigrant. I saw someone trying to come up with a workable solution that would be something that could be a kind of compromise. That is how politics works. And that is often how progress happens in this country. I wouldn’t have compromised on keeping African Americans out of the Social Security system like FDR did, but that’s what had to happen to get it passed. I still don’t see women having equal rights through the Constitution, but we have come a long way from 1900. I would prefer we not have to compromise on many of these things, but that’s the way progress often comes about. I’m not going to demonize someone as a bigot simply because they are trying to find a way to protect these undocumented families. It’s not what I would choose to do, but it’s not exactly what I’d call bigoted.

  174. 174
    TenguPhule says:

    @hovercraft:

    Sorry not seeing her charisma, I have this little problem, I don’t really care about how eloquent and exciting your speeches are, I care about the actual words you speak and what they mean.

    Unfortunately, you’re not her constituents. Personality plays a big role here. It’s also why we tend to end up with a history of shitty governors (and how we got lingle not too long ago).

  175. 175
    dogwood says:

    @TaMara (HFG):
    That’s it! Exhausting vs Exasperating. I never really suffered from BDS. Shitty President, but I didn’t wake up every morning for 8 years wondering what ridiculous, humiliating and ignorant thing was happening on an hourly basis. There were actually days and weeks when I never gave the Bush administration much of a thought. One thing that Andrew Sullivan wrote upon his return at NYM that resonated with me was that one of the best perks of living in a decent democracy is the luxury of ignoring politics at times. I’ve always been interested and reasonably well-informed, but I don’t want to be consumed by this shit all the time. Trump has ended all that, and I’m struggling to get my life back to normal. Some days are pretty good, but others are awful.

  176. 176
    Bobster says:

    @Mnemosyne: Schiff is super-popular down here and Trump is super-duper unpopular. He’s definitely earned all the support he can get, but I can’t imagine he’s in any danger whatsoever. Still, I’m sure he’ll put money to good use.

  177. 177
    Quinerly says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:
    Make it a live Russian boy pissing on him while Trump was watching. It would be irresponsible not to speculate.

  178. 178
    bystander says:

    @Mnemosyne: Schiff has been great. His interview on Trevor Noah was a model of clarity and urgency. I think he has a lot of Presidential potential.

  179. 179
    opiejeanne says:

    @Betty Cracker: She had already been invited by the time this bs started. The other aunt is a lovely person and she’s the one who got to sit on Becky. This aunt is in her 60s and has been a thoughtless person since we first met her nearly 40 years ago. Just says the first thing that comes to mind.

    Her parents are naturalized citizens from Greece. Some people need someone else to look down upon.

  180. 180
    Yarrow says:

    @TenguPhule: That’s why I mentioned finding a relatively conservative veteran to primary her. If they can find those folks in red states and convince them to run as Dems, there have to be a few in Hawaii.

    I still think her treason will come out and she’ll be ousted along with all of the other traitors, most of them Republicans. That might make it easier to find someone to replace her. What about that woman who made headlines for leaving the Republican party in Hawaii? She seemed like she might have promise. Don’t know where she lives in Hawaii, though.

  181. 181
    El Caganer says:

    @Yarrow: I saw her on Maher with Evan McMullin and thought she came off a lot saner than he did.

  182. 182
    dm says:

    @Citizen Alan: Well, if the Democrats regain control of the House in 2018, they can spend a few years investigating the consequences of that funding cut to security at Benghazi.

  183. 183
    SC54HI says:

    @TenguPhule: Tulsi originally got into the HI-2 seat because she primaried against Mufi Hanneman — a mega-DINO and one of the most despised people in Hawai’i, ever.

  184. 184
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bess:

    I will reiterate what the wise philosopher Chris Rock reminded us of back in 2006 — when the right wing goes after immigrants, we need to pay attention, because their next target is Blacks and Jews and that train is never late

  185. 185
    rikyrah says:

    Sessions should have resigned a month ago for lying to Congress — now he’s attacking a federal judge just like POTUS. Enough. https://t.co/MLqPBtJ9Kz

    — Kamala Harris (@KamalaHarris) April 20, 2017

  186. 186
    Yarrow says:

    @El Caganer: I saw that show. I didn’t think McMullin came across as not sane. What left you with that impression?

  187. 187
    Taylor says:

    @Barbara:

    Chaffetz used his campaign funds to pay for the five star hotel where he had sex with Erik Prince while they plotted to cut funding for Benghazi?

    Excuse me while I tweet this as “Sources are reporting…..”

  188. 188

    @rikyrah: We are supposed to make nice with people who put people like Sessions and the President in office.

  189. 189
    Bess says:

    @geg6:

    Let me repeat my idea.

    We are watching families being torn apart and people’s lives mess up. That makes all of us (I think) angry.

    Many of us (me included) would like to see those people who have been in the country for an extended time and who have behaved themselves receive a resident visa with a route to citizenship. The full loaf. But that will not happen with our present Congress and White House.

    Some Republicans, in the past, have stated that they aren’t willing to accept an amnesty program that includes a route to full citizenship. I think most of us on the liberal side feel that is because they don’t want millions more votes with a strong pro-Democratic leaning showing up at the polls.

    My suggestion is that we offer to go along with a permanent citizenship visa that does not lead to citizenship. People with this visa could live here for the rest of their lives (as long as they were not convicted of a serious felony) but would not be eligible for full citizenship. That’s a half a loaf.

    The remaining option is we let things continue as they are going. ICE raids and deports. No loaf.

    It’s just an idea. Better ideas are encouraged. Doing nothing is not a good option.

  190. 190
    TenguPhule says:

    @Yarrow:

    What about that woman who made headlines for leaving the Republican party in Hawaii? She seemed like she might have promise. Don’t know where she lives in Hawaii, though.

    Wrong island. Completely different district.

    And primaries are decided at the higher levels of the political party here. You have to do your time in the machine to get promoted upwards. She skipped a lot of that, which hasn’t made her friends in the party. So we’re probably going to see someone test the waters.

    But grassroots challenges don’t work well here, they can’t raise enough money.

  191. 191
    JPL says:

    @bluehill: Comey testified that republican computers were hacked also.
    This global domination

  192. 192
    StringOnAStick says:

    @geg6: I have seen exactly 3 vehicles in the past year with an “Infowars” bumper sticker on them; one of them I even hung around the parking lot for a bit because I wanted to see just who these people are. All 3 were WWC males in their 30’s or early 40’s, and looked, shall we say, a bit nuts and perpetually single. Seriously, the crazy was strongly detectable.

  193. 193
    opiejeanne says:

    @glory b: Becky’s a stone bitch. Never had any kids, thank God. She married my ex-BIL’s brother because she knew his mother was a Huntington (California robber baron, trains). He smelled like MONEY even though there wasn’t much left.
    The other aunt is married to the other brother, and they are both nice.

  194. 194
    bystander says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Louise Mensch: I absolutely believe that Andrew Breitbart was murdered by Putin…

    I don’t know if Mensch is nuts but I am enjoying her imagination. A lot more satisfying to think of Louise’s belief than the reality of clogged arteries.

    As for the reason Chaffetz is leaving early I’m relieved it’s not because his body was starting to reject the pig’s anus grafted where his lips were.

    Edited to correct a humorous misattribution.

  195. 195
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Quinerly:

    Make it a live Russian boy pissing on him while Trump was watching in his open kimono. It would be irresponsible not to speculate.

    (Don’t know how this escaped my attention last summer, but Chaffetz said Trump needed to “open his kimono and show everything.” Mind you, he meant things like tax returns and medical records, but … PHRASING!)

  196. 196
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    The remaining option is we let things continue as they are going. ICE raids and deports. No loaf.

    Sometimes people have to experience for themselves what it means when Republicans are in power, because they keep forgetting. We are not going to get any kind of sane immigration legislation while they’re in control. There won’t be any compromise because Republicans don’t respect compromise, only capitulation.

  197. 197
    SC54HI says:

    @Yarrow:

    That’s why I mentioned finding a relatively conservative veteran to primary her. If they can find those folks in red states and convince them to run as Dems, there have to be a few in Hawaii.

    There are such. The R who just left that party — Beth Fukumoto — lives in Mililani, just inside HI-1, which is urban Honolulu.

  198. 198
    TenguPhule says:

    @SC54HI: Yep, everyone hates Mufi.

  199. 199
    Spaniel says:

    I first thought that Jason Chaffetz was going to get a job in the Trump administration, likely the deputy to Rex Tillerson (sp?). I thought this was all for show on how he wanted to be close to the family and then get a new job.

  200. 200
    SC54HI says:

    From Senator Schatz just now, via email:

    The Attorney General, Jeff Sessions, just attacked the state of Hawaii after a local judge ruled against Trump’s unconstitutional Muslim Ban saying:

    “I really am amazed that a judge sitting on an island in the Pacific can issue an order that stops the President of the United States from what appears to be clearly his statutory and Constitutional power.”

    Mr. Attorney General, I have a message for you: You voted for that judge. That island is called Oahu, and it’s my home. Have some respect.

    There is no doubt Trump’s supporters and Republicans from across the country will come after me for taking him and his Attorney General on, but Hawaii is my home, and defending what’s right is always my number one priority.

  201. 201
    TenguPhule says:

    @Yarrow: And sadly, our shrinking Republican party here is all in on Trump. Which is why Fukumoto abandoned ship.

  202. 202
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bess:

    My suggestion is that we offer to go along with a permanent citizenship visa that does not lead to citizenship. People with this visa could live here for the rest of their lives (as long as they were not convicted of a serious felony) but would not be eligible for full citizenship. That’s a half a loaf.

    You may want to take a look at the experiences of Koreans in Japan or Turks in Germany before you buy that half loaf. It’s not pretty, and it creates a permanent, multi-generational underclass that’s easily exploited.

  203. 203
    Yarrow says:

    @TenguPhule: It’s interesting how each state’s politics can be so different. I hope someone steps up to challenge her. She’s a danger to the country.

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Chaffetz said Trump needed to “open his kimono and show everything.”

    Whaaaaaa???? That is a phrase that should join the lexicon. It smells of projection as well. If a kimono isn’t somehow involved in the reason for Chaffetz’s departure from Congress I’ll be surprised.

    Edited because sentence fail.

  204. 204
    hovercraft says:

    Poll says the majority of Americans view Kushner and Ivanka’s White House roles as inappropriate as Trump’s lust for Ivanka CNN via FARK

    Poll: Most say Ivanka, Jared’s White House roles are inappropriate
    By Betsy Klein and Kate Bennett, CNN
    Updated 11:40 AM ET, Thu April 20, 2017

    (CNN)Fewer voters have unfavorable opinions of the first family than President Donald Trump, but a majority disapprove of the adviser roles of Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner, according to a Quinnipiac University poll of registered voters published Wednesday.

    Ivanka Trump recently assumed an official role in her father’s administration. She moved into a West Wing office and obtained a security clearance in late March.
    About 53% of respondents said the first daughter playing a significant role in the White House is not appropriate, compared with 36% who said it was appropriate and 10% who did not have an opinion.

    Kushner, her husband, also has a broad portfolio within the West Wing, where he has an influential purview over a range of foreign and domestic policy issues. …….
    About 53% said his role was not appropriate, compared to 32% of respondents who said it was appropriate and 15% who did not know…….

    About 56% of those surveyed had an unfavorable opinion of Trump, compared to 39% who had a favorable opinion of him. That compares with 31% with unfavorable opinions of Ivanka Trump and 36% with favorable opinions, and Kushner, with 32% unfavorable to 15% favorable. About half of respondents had not heard enough about Kushner to have an opinion.
    First lady Melania Trump has a 34% favorable rating versus 24% unfavorable and 35% who have yet to form an opinion.

    America just isn’t that into them. SAD!!!!

  205. 205
    Quinerly says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:
    I like the way you think! (Although the visual of all this just made me gag on my afternoon porch sitting beer. Ick)

  206. 206
    JPL says:

    @Barbara: Was it in the shower?

  207. 207
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bess:

    Also, isn’t a “permanent citizenship visa” better known as a green card? What would be the differences between your new type of visa and a green card?

  208. 208
    Bess says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    How can it create multi-generational problems? Children born in the US to “undocumented” people are US citizens.

  209. 209
    Barbara says:

    @SC54HI: It’s just a complete mystery to Sessions why the U.S. would have entered WWII after Japan attacked that same island in the Pacific. He also forgot to mention that the Court of Appeals overseeing federal courts on that island in the Pacific declined for now to vacate or overrule that judge’s order pending further proceedings. That court draws its members from states that account for close to 25% of the population of the U.S.

  210. 210
    Barbara says:

    @JPL: No, on the moonlit balcony. That’s why it’s become a bit of a problem . . . they didn’t realize the room next door was occupied by a Russian spy with a powerful camera and recording devices.

  211. 211
    zhena gogolia says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    brain bleach stat!

  212. 212
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @rikyrah: FFS, if that’s the standard then Roberts, Alito, Thomas & now Gorsuch ought to quit as well, since each one of them perjured himself drastically during his confirmation hearings. Good luck with that.

  213. 213
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Quinerly: It is a dreadful visual. But it’s also just a very weird way to say “release your tax returns.”

    @Yarrow: Your take on “projection” is more than plausible. I’ll bet you’re right.

  214. 214
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bess:

    How can it create multi-generational problems? Children born in the US to “undocumented” people are US citizens.

    For now, yes. But changing that’s on the conservative wish list. Where are you planning to draw your line in the sand?

    And I still don’t understand the difference between this “new” visa and a green card.

  215. 215
    rikyrah says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    I will reiterate what the wise philosopher Chris Rock reminded us of back in 2006 — when the right wing goes after immigrants, we need to pay attention, because their next target is Blacks and Jews and that train is never late

    ABSOLUTELY NO LIE

  216. 216
    dm says:

    @Yarrow: “open the kimono” is, I think, old-boys-club venture-capitalist speak. Urban Dictionary has this to say: “A 1990’s phrase that means that everyone should share data.”

    NPR has a pretty good essay on it. Ah, Femaletalk has a better one.

  217. 217
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @SC54HI:

    Shorter Senator Schatz: (link)

  218. 218
    Bess says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Also, isn’t a “permanent citizenship visa” better known as a green card? What would be the differences between your new type of visa and a green card?

    Present holders are eligible for citizenship after a given number of years residing in the US. Three years for green card holders married to US citizens. Longer for those who aren’t.

    Republicans, I think, are not willing to give green cards to those who came into the country illegally. That’s a battle we can’t win at least until Democrats take back control of Congress and the White House. And that’s not going to happen until 2021 at the earliest.

    We need a solution now. We don’t need four more years of ICE deportations. We might be able to get an agreement on green cards without a path to citizenship. Republicans know they need some minority votes in the future. Best to not piss off all Hispanics.

    I wanted single payer. I was very pleased to get Obamacare as I realized that single payer was not an option at that point in time. Tens of thousands of people are going to live longer and hundreds of thousands of people are going to avoid financial disaster. I’ll take that half a loaf if that’s all that’s available in the store.

  219. 219
    catclub says:

    @Yarrow:

    It smells of projection as well.

    Not sure why, but it is the usual wording when two companies are close to a deal and revealing their internal secrets to each other.
    I am sure that is where Chaffetz got the term.

  220. 220
    Yarrow says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: It’s always projection with these guys. Chaffetz’s mistress must know something about his penchant for kimonos. Someone should ask her. Maybe there are pictures. A slip of the tongue like that might be because he knew they had those pictures. Hmmm…

  221. 221
    catclub says:

    @dm: I shake my little fist at your quick typing fingers.

  222. 222
    Bess says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    But changing that’s on the conservative wish list. Where are you planning to draw your line in the sand?

    Why would we support doing away with birthright citizenship? Republicans want a lot of things that we don’t have to support.

  223. 223
    trollhattan says:

    @Barbara:
    I think of Manhattan as “some island in the Atlantic” so…fair is fair. (And if some of that surrounding water is fresh today, just wait….)

  224. 224
    randy khan says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Changing birthright citizenship would require a Constitutional amendment or a serious change in the composition of the Supreme Court. (By which I mean I doubt Roberts would vote for that, and probably not Thomas or Alito.) They can’t just legislate that, so it’s safe for now.

  225. 225
    PPCLI says:

    @Betty Cracker: also several bridges too far for me is her theory that there was no actual underage girl texting Anthony Weiner, but rather a (male, of age) hacker cat fishing, and that this was part of a scheme that also involved planting copies of Hillary’s emails on Weiner’s computer. All coordinated by rogue FBI agents in the New York office, if I understand the story correctly.

  226. 226
    TenguPhule says:

    @randy khan:

    and probably not Thomas or Alito

    They’d vote to legalize rape if that’s what the Republicans demanded.

  227. 227
    randy khan says:

    @trollhattan:

    Even today, it’s all tidal and at least somewhat brackish.

  228. 228
    Corner Stone says:

    @Yarrow: Did you just use the phrase “slip of the tongue” in the same comment as Chaffetz + mistress?

  229. 229
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    We need a solution now.

    No we don’t. Republicans are in power. Its their problem. The Democrat’s goal now is to make sure they can’t do shit.

  230. 230
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    @PPCLI:

    The airplane tail number analysis on that bit is really intriguing, though.

  231. 231
    Yarrow says:

    @dm: @catclub: Thanks. Clearly I’m not a good old boys’ club venture capitalist. I still think there’s more there there. Chaffetz reeks of hypocrisy. I can totally imagine him having several side pieces and some sexual preferences that would not be appreciated in Mormon circles.

  232. 232
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bess:

    We might be able to get an agreement on green cards without a path to citizenship.

    Republicans will only accept that compromise if those new visa holders also have birthright citizenship for their children taken away. They already say that they want birthright citizenship taken away from the children of “illegals,” and they’re not going to back down from that.

    So either we accept that, or we go back to today’s status quo.

    And, no, Republicans don’t have to accept that the country’s demographics are changing as long as Jeff Sessions and Kris Kobach are in charge of our voting laws. All they have to do is keep squeezing minority voters out and they can stay in control for at least another generation, if not longer.

  233. 233
    Yarrow says:

    @Corner Stone: I certainly did. Thanks for noticing.

  234. 234
    TenguPhule says:

    @Yarrow:

    I hope someone steps up to challenge her. She’s a danger to the country.

    She’s ambitious and has no patience. The national party is going to have to be ready to gut her when she makes her play for more power.

    /And yes its a metaphor, FFS.

  235. 235
    Kay says:

    Sessions continues to be embarrassing:

    I really am amazed that a judge sitting on an island in the Pacific can issue an order that stops the President of the United States from what appears to be clearly his statutory and Constitutional power.”

    He’s talking about Hawaii. I don’t know- is this nuttiness related to birtherism? Is Sessions a birther like Donald Trump?

    Or do conservatives now deny that some states are in fact states?

    As this administration proceeds I’m afraid we’ll find out that Sessions is the worst in a bunch of low quality hires. He’ll really suck at his job.

  236. 236
    Miss Bianca says:

    @hovercraft:

    Sorry not seeing her charisma, I have this little problem, I don’t really care about how eloquent and exciting your speeches are, I care about the actual words you speak and what they mean. This is why I never could get on the “revolution” bandwagon, none of the proposals had a snowballs chance in hell.

    I’m with you. That’s why Obama = WIN to me, and Wilmer…and Tulsi…not so much.

  237. 237
    PPCLI says:

    @low-tech cyclist: reality does sometimes have a sense of humor. Either shutting down or raising the debt limit on day 100 of the Trump presidency. … two great options.

  238. 238
    Mnemosyne says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Finally, something we agree on. Any assumption that the Republicans are going to suddenly wake up and feel like compromising on anything when they’re in control of all three branches of the federal government is a fantasy. There is no reason for Democrats to go along with any Republican legislation.

  239. 239
    TenguPhule says:

    @Kay:

    I don’t know- is this nuttiness related to birtherism?

    Sadly, no. Its related to common ignorance. I suspect about 40% of the 48 don’t realize Hawaii is an actual state. Because we’re not actually located in North America.

  240. 240
    dm says:

    Josh Marshall teases us with news that Juaquin Castro is out-polling Ted Cruz for the 2018 race for Senator from Texas.

    There are a lot of caveats mixed in with that tease, but the thought still brings a smile to my face.

  241. 241
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: One can be both nuts in general and correct on specific facts at the same time.

  242. 242
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Kay:

    Or do conservatives now deny that some states are in fact states?

    California isn’t a real state to most conservatives, so ….

    But, yes, Sessions is the worst of the worst. He can seriously fuck up voting access and voting rights in a really dangerous way.

  243. 243
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Finally, something we agree on.

    I actually agree with you on multiple issues. I just have issues with tactics and strategy.

    But all of them simply boil down to: Fuck the Republicans. Forever.

  244. 244
    Raoul says:

    Buzzfeed reporter has a short statement for Chaffetz office that “future plans not yet finalized.”

    So, ummm, at the other end of the spectrum from jail (for now!!), could the Trump admin be about to announce a high level position for him?

    Crazy, I know, but why not go down with the ship in style!

  245. 245
    cmorenc says:

    @PaulW:

    Live boy, dead girl, confused giraffe.

    Unofficial off-the-record sources say it was a surveillance video recording Chaffetz with the confused giraffe that was the reason he’s considering early resignation.

  246. 246
    PPCLI says:

    @germy: that’s actually my guess too. He took one look at the kind of stuff that’s going to be coming out over the next few months, and neither continuing to investigate seriously, nor trying to cover up would be close to politically viable. Better to get his ass out of there and hope he can return to politics when everything blows over.

  247. 247
    Bess says:

    @TenguPhule: Tell that to the families that are getting ripped apart. I’m sure they’d like a solution. I know I would.

  248. 248
    TenguPhule says:

    @Kay:

    I’m afraid we’ll find out that Sessions is the worst in a bunch of low quality hires.

    Gorsch is worse. A lot worse. If you saw how he’s starting on the court….its bad.

  249. 249
    Mnemosyne says:

    @cmorenc:

    He was just trying to help April’s labor along — geez, you people! //

  250. 250
    Bess says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Republicans will only accept that compromise if those new visa holders also have birthright citizenship for their children taken away

    If that’s the case then we don’t go along.

    It’s kind of simple. Either you try to get something and perhaps succeed.

    Or you don’t try and get nothing.

  251. 251
    dm says:

    @Mnemosyne: California’s okay — that’s where St. Ronald was from. Nixon, too, for an earlier generation of conservatives.

    I think nothing rolls off a conservative’s tongue through sneering lips like “Massachusetts liberal” — it’s at least as bad as “San Francisco values”.

  252. 252
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    Tell that to the families that are getting ripped apart. I’m sure they’d like a solution.

    “This is why Republicans are evil bastards, never support them. Vote for Democrats.”

    That’s the only solution that’s viable and legal right now.

    Expecting anything more at this time is wishing for unicorns. Democrats ARE NOT RUNNING THINGS.

  253. 253
    randy khan says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Thomas is weirdly quirky and more principled than Scalia was on the originalism/actual text stuff. He’s actually almost kind of good on some criminal law issues because of that. I think he’d have a hard time ignoring the actual text of the 14th Amendment.

    It’s possible I’m overoptimistic about Alito, though.

  254. 254
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    Either you try to get something and perhaps succeed.

    Its legislative three card monte.

    The only winning move is not to play.

  255. 255
    TenguPhule says:

    @randy khan:

    Thomas is weirdly quirky and more principled than Scalia

    He’s actually almost kind of good on some criminal law issues

    Presumes facts clearly not in evidence.

  256. 256
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bess:

    It’s kind of simple. Either you try to get something and perhaps succeed.

    Or you don’t try and get nothing.

    That was good advice during the Obama years. Now? Cooperating with fascists who are in full control of the government never turns out well for anyone, especially the cooperators.

    If Democrats take Congress back in 2018, that’s when you start thinking about those plans again.

  257. 257
    PPCLI says:

    @SC54HI: let’s not forget that this is the party that is constantly claiming “Obama divided us!”

  258. 258
  259. 259
  260. 260
    Bess says:

    @Mnemosyne: I’m sorry, we just aren’t going to be able to discuss this as long as you uphold a Democratic version of Republican “freeze them out” behavior.

    All I’m suggesting is to make an offer. If they don’t take it then nothing is lost.

    If they come back with a different offer then look at it and see if it’s acceptable. If so, go along. If not, don’t go along.

    I think I’ll drop this now unless someone else want to actually discuss solutions.

  261. 261
    PPCLI says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: she-or her sources-do come up with some intriguing stuff, I’m not going to deny it.
    The problem is just that she isn’t very discriminating with her breathless claims. That presents the danger that people won’t believe the truth on those occasions when she happens upon it. And it will discredit other, more careful reporters as well

  262. 262
    Mike in NC says:

    Has dipshit Jeff Sessions ever even been to Hawaii? Sarah Palin infamously expressed her discomfort at having to be there among so many non-white people (who couldn’t possibly be Real Americans).

  263. 263
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    we just aren’t going to be able to discuss this as long as you uphold a Democratic version of Republican “freeze them out” behavior.

    Cooperating with the Republicans only helps Republicans. Have the last 16 years taught you nothing?

    There are no grand bargains to be had anymore. The GOP is the party of treason.

    Until they raise the white flag, no quarter will be asked or given.

  264. 264
    Booger says:

    @David 🍁Canadian Anchor Baby🍁 Koch: You’d be surprised how flexible Mormons can be when it comes to ethics, morals, values and anyone with an (R) after their name.

  265. 265
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    discuss solutions.

    Every current Republican in office sent to Fedmax for life. That’s about the only realistic solution if we ever want to see what was formerly known as bipartisanship in our lifetimes.

  266. 266
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bess:

    I’m sorry, we just aren’t going to be able to discuss this as long as you uphold a Democratic version of Republican “freeze them out” behavior.

    If you want to try and find common ground with the same people who deliberately and with malice aforethought prevented your fellow citizens from being able to vote this past November, be my guest.

    The fable of the frog and the scorpion is in play here. Don’t be the naive frog who thinks he can help the scorpion without being taken down, too.

  267. 267
    rikyrah says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    Jim Crow, Esquire

  268. 268
    El Caganer says:

    @Yarrow: I thought he was dead serious (caveat: I may be humor-deficient and missed the snark) when he claimed that Assad and ISIS were working together. Also, I thought he was an ex-CIA guy; he bought into the official Khan Sheikhun story awfully quickly, even though it didn’t make any sense.

  269. 269
    rikyrah says:

    @dm:
    Ted didn’t win a regular primary. His primary was either in July or August. He won with a sliver of the crazies

  270. 270
    randy khan says:

    @TenguPhule:

    I’ve read a fair number of Thomas opinions, including ones where he’s voted with the liberal wing when Scalia did not. But you don’t need to take my word for it: Thomas surprises

    To be clear, 95% of the time he’s going to be awful, and often even worse than your standard conservative, but there are definitely areas where’s he staked out different ground.

  271. 271
    sukabi says:

    @David 🍁Canadian Anchor Baby🍁 Koch: couldn’t happen to a more deserving guy.😂😂😂😂😂

  272. 272
    rikyrah says:

    @Bess:
    You keep bringing this up like the Republican party is a genuine actor in all of this. We have Attorney General White Citizens Council.We have the head of DHS who tried to argue that taking children from mother’s was ok. Look at who they have advising them. Stop pretending that we are in a different world than what we are.There is no compromise. They want to stop the immigration of anyone who is NOT White. Why isn’t this obvious to you?

  273. 273
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bess:

    Another reason it’s a bad idea for Democrats to compromise on immigration policy right now: a majority of Americans hate Trump’s immigration policies. So why should we validate his policies and compromise with Republicans to do something that a majority of Americans think is a bad idea?

  274. 274
    Taylor says:

    @rikyrah: Not to mention that this has been tried in several European countries, and has contributed to an underclass that is discriminated against and will never attain citizenship, and hence a fertile recruiting ground for ISIS and its ilk.

    Stupid policy in the name of bipartisanship.

  275. 275
    Bess says:

    @rikyrah:

    They want to stop the immigration of anyone who is NOT White. Why isn’t this obvious to you?

    Have you noticed that there the Freedom Caucus and there’s the Tuesday Group? Not all Republicans agree.

    We offer. They refuse. We lose nothing. They put another black mark by their names by refusing.

    We offer. They accept. 10+ million good people can sleep well at night.

    We do nothing. Nothing happens.

  276. 276
    glory b says:

    @rikyrah: Chris Rock was a true prophet. In the same stand up was it “Bring the Pain,” or “Bigger and Blacker?” I can’t remember), he said they won’t cure AIDS, but you will have to take medication for the rest of your life.

    I think that’s also when he said we should keep guns as they are and regulate/wildly tax bullets. “He musta did something! They put $4000 worth of bullets in his a__!” “I’m gonna get a job and save my money and then I’m gonna bust a cap in your a__!”

    And yes, that train is never late.

  277. 277
    West of the Rockies (been a while) says:

    @Yarrow:

    Feeling a bit dense today… does a kimono reference suggest cross dressing or something?

  278. 278
    Corner Stone says:

    @Bess:

    All I’m suggesting is to make an offer. If they don’t take it then nothing is lost.

    Anytime you crack open a door on a keynote issue these fuckers cram the entire three ring circus through it. That’s why Pelosi didn’t bother playing their 3 card Monte game on privatizing Social Security. You say, “Let’s see what we can agree on.” and they say, “LLLLLLEEEEEEERRRRRRROOOOOYYYYYY JEEEENNNNKKKEEENNNSSS!!!” and proceed to shoot every hostage in sight. They are domestic terrorists. And now IMO it will be proven a significant number of them are factual traitors.

  279. 279
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bess:

    Have you noticed that there the Freedom Caucus and there’s the Tuesday Group? Not all Republicans agree.

    And yet when Democrats offered comprehensive immigration reform and Obama was standing by to sign it, the Republicans refused, as a block, to even consider it.

    What makes you think we could get something even half as good as that bill now, much less get Trump to sign it?

  280. 280
    Corner Stone says:

    “Come here little piranha. Come here, buddy. Let’s see if we can agree on how much of my arm you will chew through when I dip it in the river.”
    “Oh, just to the wrist? I guess we can agree on that.”
    “Ouch! Ouch! That’s my elbow! Dammit! That’s my fucking shoulder joint! You said…you said…glurg glurg glurg….”

  281. 281
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    We do nothing. Nothing happens..

    And we win.

    The only winning move is not to play.

  282. 282
    Another Scott says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: That’s Illuminati conspiracy talk.

    Benghazi security has been beaten to death (e.g. Politifact. Even given the slant there, it’s reasonably clear that the idea that people in Congress somehow wanted people to get killed in Benghazi is nuts.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  283. 283
    Gex says:

    “I think I’ll drop this now unless someone else want to actually discuss solutions.”

    I think this is the best line of the whole discussion. You want to find a way to compromise to make government provide solutions, conveniently ignoring the fact that the party you want to compromise with doesn’t believe in having government solve problems. They believe the government is the problem. Plus the Hastert Rule is telling. They want to govern WITHOUT Democratic input whatsoever. All compromise from Dems does in that situation is create centrist, sometimes even center-right, policy which loses them support and enthusiasm from the left, helps the GOP win, and forces Dems to compromise some more.

    They never move in our direction. We constantly cave and move in their direction. What we end up getting are two parties that support right wing policies. What the fuck do we even stand for at that point?

    The fact is immigration won’t be solved right now. And it won’t be solved when the racists have as much power as they do in the GOP and/or the GOP wins as much as it does. So go work on that. It sucks that people suffer now. It is admirable to want to fix it RIGHT NOW. I would love to do that too. But there are preconditions that have to be met to solve this problem that have not yet been met. So work on those.

  284. 284
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Bess: Your idea would create a permanent legal underclass. People who live here but will never have a chance to have a voice in how the country is run.

    No good bill is possible with this Congress. Passing a bad instead of a terrible bill is not a solution.

  285. 285
    Goku says:

    @David 🍁Canadian Anchor Baby🍁 Koch: I wonder what her constituents must think, if this is related to Session’s “island in the Pacific” remark

  286. 286
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mnemosyne: She is proposing a greed card that doesn’t allow the holder to apply for citizenship.

  287. 287
    TS says:

    @opiejeanne:

    Some people need someone else to look down upon.

    The 100% reason why trump is the US President

  288. 288
    Gex says:

    @Gex: Christ. It’s like the whole anchor baby discussion didn’t JUST HAPPEN in the last election.

  289. 289
    El Caganer says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I thought the greed card was what Trump was proposing.

  290. 290
    Bess says:

    @Corner Stone: I’ll play 3 card Monty with you as long as I stand to win something and I don’t have to pay to play.

  291. 291
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess: Then its not 3 card monte.

  292. 292
    Bess says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Your idea would create a permanent legal underclass. People who live here but will never have a chance to have a voice in how the country is run.

    The option is to let those people be deported, live in another country, and never have a chance to have a voice in how the country is run.

  293. 293
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    greed card

    I know this is a typo, but considering that the US would be taking people’s money in exchange for them never being allowed to become citizens while still having to pay taxes …

  294. 294
    Bess says:

    @TenguPhule: Same game. Change in payout.

    If Democratic leaders quietly communicate with Republican leaders and say –

    “Tell you what. Bring a bill that allows undocumented people to stay in the country without a path to citizenship and we’ll vote for it”

    – then the legislative game can be played with the Democrats risking nothing but possibly getting a large part of what they want. A half a loaf.

  295. 295
    Bess says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    If they can legally stay here then they can qualify for Social Security and get Medicare when they get old.

    Now, if they are working for an employer who collects taxes, they pay in and get nothing. Even if they manage to avoid ICE until they die of old age at 125.

  296. 296
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Bess: The option is to work like hell to take back the House and Senate in 2018 and to try to prevent the GOP from doing too much damage in the meantime.

    Nice Germans accepted the first restrictions on the Jews, and then next ones, and look where that ended up. I am not okay with voting for a law that creates second class people. I am mos def not okay with Democrats proposing the policy in the first place.

  297. 297
    Gex says:

    @Bess: And you seem not to realize that these Republicans you want to compromise will see that as incentivizing people to come here. They already believe that no legal status but birthright citizenship for their children incentivizes undocumented immigration. They just spent the 2016 primaries railing against anchor babies.

    Who is this mythical GOP you want to compromise with? They already reject the things you said you wouldn’t compromise on.

    You’re not wrong in theory in any other aspect than you seem not to understand the GOP’s actual stated positions.

  298. 298
    Gex says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: This right here.

  299. 299
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    Same game. Change in payout.

    Uh no. The whole point of 3 card monte is that you, the sucker, WILL NEVER WIN. EVER.

  300. 300
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    Now, if they are working for an employer who collects taxes, they pay in and get nothing.

    Which is one of the fringe benefits of illegal immigrants. They help to fund SS for the rest of us.

    ETA: If they are legal, there’s a reciprecal treaty we have with several countries that allows them to get that money back when they leave.

  301. 301
    Corner Stone says:

    @Bess: There are no cards, no ball and no payoff. It’s just you sticking your money on the table. “Don’t take any, ok?”

  302. 302
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    then the legislative game can be played

    You don’t seem to comprehend that the game has changed. Republicans are playing Calvin Ball and the only rule is that there are no rules other then “Heads we win, tails you lose.”

  303. 303
    Bess says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    The option is to work like hell to take back the House and Senate in 2018 and to try to prevent the GOP from doing too much damage in the meantime.

    OK, that’s another solution. We can discuss all ideas.

    Now, how do we stop ICE for the next 3.5+ years? We aren’t going to get a supermajority in the Senate with the best of outcomes in 2018. We aren’t going to stop Trump/ICE with legislation.

  304. 304
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Gex:

    I also have a feeling that there are very few, if any, immigrant rights groups that would sign off on this kind of “compromise.”

    So, basically, Democrats are supposed to put their asses in a sling and piss off a huge portion of their voters to get a compromise that won’t make anyone happy, and we won’t even get something tangible like healthcare out of it.

  305. 305
    kvs says:

    @Bess:
    Bipartisanship has shown zero tactical or practical benefits over the last 8 years. You can’t make bargains with people who negotiate in bad faith and don’t want to get to “yes.” The path forward is winning electoral majorities. Anything that doesn’t contribute to that, or otherwise limit the harm done while Republicans are in power, is wasted effort.

    On the other hand, Republicans have demonstrated that there’s almost no price to be paid and ample reward for relentlessly obstructing the opposition’s agenda.

  306. 306
    TenguPhule says:

    Now, how do we stop ICE for the next 3.5+ years?

    Ideally by seeing Trump and the entire GOP Congress in prison.

    Other then that, nothing can be done.

    Get this through your head. Nothing can be done for those families you’re worried about.

    That’s what happens when the fascists are in power.

  307. 307
    Bess says:

    @TenguPhule:

    there are no rules other then “Heads we win, tails you lose.”

    Some Republicans realize that they need to win over some minority votes in the future if they want to win federal elections.

    There’s some incentive for Republicans to stop this deportation stuff. It may not be enough for them to see it as a we win/you lose, but there’s no way to know if one does not try.

    Which would you rather see 1) 10+ million people being able to live normalized lives or 2) hundreds of thousands, millions being kicked out of the country?

  308. 308
    Bess says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Nothing can be done for those families you’re worried about.

    As long as we try nothing, nothing will happen.

    Got it. Run up the white flag.

  309. 309
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    There’s some incentive for Republicans to stop this deportation stuff.

    Charlie Brown, Lucy is not going to let you kick that football.

  310. 310
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mnemosyne: We’ll get a shitload of Latinos to come out and vote if we follow Bess’s plan. Wait, no we won’t.

    @Bess: Compromise Democratic principles, piss off a group of voters who are turning toward us, appear feckless because the GOP won’t buy in and for what? Seriously, for what?

  311. 311
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bess:

    Some Republicans realize that they need to win over some minority votes in the future if they want to win federal elections.

    Name them. And they need to have actually voted for immigration reform in the past 10 years, not just talked big in public and then “regretfully” voted with their party.

  312. 312
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    Which would you rather see 1) 10+ million people being able to live normalized lives or 2) hundreds of thousands, millions being kicked out of the country?

    What I would rather see and what can actually be done in reality are two different things entirely.

  313. 313
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    As long as we try nothing, nothing will happen.

    Got it. Run up the white flag.

    Sigh, At this point I’m suspecting your ignorance is deliberate.

    The moment you decide to play, you lose.

    The only winning move is to sabotage the Republicans and do nothing to help them.

  314. 314
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Compromise Democratic principles, piss off a group of voters who are turning toward us, appear feckless because the GOP won’t buy in and for what? Seriously, for what?

    To create a permanent underclass that lives within the US but is never allowed to become citizens. But they might be able to get Social Security, eventually, if they live long enough!

  315. 315
    Bess says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Seriously, for what?

    For the mother of those two children who were born in the US and can’t show up to pick them up after school because she’s been led off in handcuffs.

    For the couple who has spent years of hard work in order to establish their small business who don’t open up in the morning because they’re on the bus heading south. The bus with bars over the windows and armed guards.

  316. 316
    Bess says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Ignorance is looking at a problem and not being able to dream up a potential solution.

    Or perhaps that’s stupidity.

    It’s definitely stupidity to not be able to take an idea and attempt to work out any potential bugs but to dismiss the idea out of hand.

  317. 317
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bess:

    And these things are the fault of Democrats because … ?

    Right now, Republicans own ALL of that. The mothers being hauled off. The elderly couple being deported.

    You want Democrats to step up and accept a share of the blame for the Republicans’ actions in the name of compromise when the past 20+ years have shown that the only thing that happens in that situation is that Democrats get 100 percent of the blame for any compromise while the Republicans skate away free.

    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. You can ram your head into that brick wall and be astounded that it ends the same way it has for the past 20+ years, but I respectfully decline to do the same.

  318. 318
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    Ignorance is looking at a problem and not being able to dream up a potential solution.

    Ignorance is wishing for a unicorn instead of acknowledging reality. You would have better luck flapping your arms while jumping off of a cliff to discover a new way to achieve unassisted flight.

  319. 319
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Bess: Don’t you understand that the GOP won’t take the deal in any case? Democrats will have shat themselves and public and they will have achieved nothing more than shit filled underwear. I’ve been following politics over the past 25 years. I know what the GOP will do.

  320. 320
    Bess says:

    Look folks, we’re back to where we were a few days ago. A (the same) small group of nabobs of negativity who would rather do nothing as opposed to taking a very low cost chance that might pay off.

    Or maybe it’s people who want a lot of ICE-created suffering in order to fire up the troops.

    Whatever. I’ve made my point over and over and over. No sense in my stating it again.

  321. 321
    Ksmiami says:

    @TenguPhule: Agreed – Republicans have been engaged in a cold (getting hotter) Civil War on Democrats for quite some time. There can be no collaboration with them as they’ve decided we are enemies. We just have to fight and show how bad they are for the country

  322. 322
  323. 323
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bess:

    It’s not a “low cost chance.” It has a very high potential cost of losing Democratic voters just by floating the idea. Do you not remember how many Democrats flipped out at the very mention of a grand bargain over Social Security?

    You want to risk alienating a large block of Democratic voters on the off-chance that a few Republicans might be willing to make a deal that Trump might be willing to sign.

    ETA: How well do you think Democrats who voted for this compromise would do in California and Nevada afterwards?

  324. 324
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    who would rather do nothing as opposed to taking a very low cost chance that might pay off.

    You want to play Russian Roulette with every round in the chamber.

    Do not be surprised when everyone else here dumps on you for that.

    Tugging at heartstrings isn’t going to result in your delusion of compromise, its going to end up with reality slapping you in the face, kicking you in the crotch, then stealing your wallet.

    /Yes, I know the imagery sucks here, but I’m trying to get through Nader level ignorance here folks, so please cut me a little slack.

  325. 325
    TenguPhule says:

    Help me Mod-Kenobi, you’re my only hope!

  326. 326
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    I’ve made my point over and over and over.

    That you’re an idiot. A emotionally blinded, reality ignoring, idiot. You’re like the worst parody of the “stupid liberal” sterotype I’ve ever seen.

  327. 327
    George Spiggott says:

    @Bess:

    …group of nabobs of negativity…

    Hahahahahahaha, y’all been in a pie fight with Spiro’s ghost:

  328. 328
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Bess: I think the key point here is that you’re not acknowledging that there’s a very significant possibility of blowback for this. Instead of it being a “No downside, possible upside of debatable worth” it’s “Possibility of large downside with Latino and Progressive community, possibly upside of debatable worth”.

    It’s a high-risk, relatively low payoff proposition. You need to either argue that it’s lower risk, or that the payoff is significantly larger than already indicated. That’s it.

  329. 329
    Mnemosyne says:

    @MisterForkbeard:

    I do understand that Bess is upset by the deportations that are currently happening, and that she really wants to find a solution to stop them. I’m in California, and we’re seeing ICE horror stories every day.

    But trying to find a “compromise” with xenophobes is not the solution.

  330. 330
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Bess: your position has generated a great deal of discussion about the pros and cons of various positions, and that discussion has been largely civil and useful, whether or not everyone agrees with you. It’s like we are doing exactly what we should be doing in a forum such as this one. For that, kudos!

    Now, who wants to engage in ad hominem attacks and circular firing squads and Wilmer fluffing/trashing?

  331. 331

    @Mnemosyne: I am not sure I buy that the motivation behind the proposal is benign.

  332. 332

    @geg6: President Obama tried to meet the Rs half way on more than one issue, what did the Ds get for being sensible. Nothing.

  333. 333
    randy khan says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Personally, my approach on immigration would be to propose what the Dems want – a path to citizenship, etc. It won’t get a vote in either the House or the Senate, but it’s a marker. Then oppose the wall, increases in ICE funding, etc., until the cows come home.

    In practice, nothing positive is going to happen on immigration for the next two years. The Republicans don’t have anything resembling a consensus on a bill within their own ranks – it might be worse than health care in that regard – and the status quo of deportation is fine with a big chunk of the Republicans on the Hill, not even considering how it plays with core Republican voters (especially as compared to any legislation other than massive funding increases for ICE and building the wall).

    If I thought that some intermediate step legislation was within the realm of possibility, I might be willing to support it because the deportations are terrible, but I just don’t see it, and any proposal would get chopped up so badly that it might end up being worse than the current situation.

  334. 334
    Ruckus says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    The other day when she said she was sitting not 5 ft from a green card holder may be the tip off. I think that she is worried about someone being deported and would like to find a way that she thinks will keep this person here. Failing of course to understand that the people she needs to convince not only don’t give a shit that someone gets deported, they welcome both the concept and the severity of the deportation. IOW the people she wants to convince want people deported and want to see them hurt along the way. Even if congress was willing and drumpf signed the order, who’s running ICE and CBP? Who is going to stop them?

  335. 335

    @randy khan: Many of the immigration measures are being fought in courts. Besides the anti-immigration jihad is not consequence free for the native born either. It is going to affect the bottom line of many businesses and economy as a whole. The earlier papers please laws died a quiet death when even the deep south states realized their folly.

  336. 336
    Mnemosyne says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Even my Fox-watching mom is sympathetic to the Dreamers and soccer moms getting deported. I just think the proposed solution would be disastrous for an actual fix long-term.

  337. 337
    Mnemosyne says:

    @randy khan:

    Knowing that their bills would never get signed didn’t stop the R’s from proposing them. There apparently are ways for the R’s to block the D’s from even filing a bill, but posting the proposed legislation on, say, the DCCC or DNC site would set the parameter.

  338. 338
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @randy khan:

    Personally, my approach on immigration would be to propose what the Dems want – a path to citizenship, etc. It won’t get a vote in either the House or the Senate, but it’s a marker. Then oppose the wall, increases in ICE funding, etc., until the cows come home.

    I am fine with this plan.

  339. 339
    randy khan says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Knowing that, you propose the bill you want, not the compromise.

  340. 340
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @randy khan: Like you said, post a marker. “This is what we will do when we have power again. Please vote accordingly.”

  341. 341
    Achrachno says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: “2. Why would a small Welsh firm, totally ill-equipped for a conflict zone, get the contract for Benghazi?”

    Wouldn’t the State Dept. or someone in the admin. make the decision about what firm to hire? I’m not sure we can blame the Rs for that, as much as I’d like to. For cutting funds — yes! They should have been getting hammered for that for years.

  342. 342
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @randy khan:

    Knowing that, you propose the bill you want, not the compromise.

    You must be new here–Democrats always bring knives to gun fights!

  343. 343
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Steve in the ATL: Honestly, that is what Bess is proposing.

  344. 344
    Achrachno says:

    @Yarrow: I agree. She’s working the edge of the unknown, hence is doubtless wrong sometimes, but seems reasonable to me. She seems willing to admit error which puts her in the upper ranks of humanity IMO. I admit I’ve only been aware of her for a few months and have not followed her closely, but from what I’ve seen she’s not a nut and is well with listening to — critically.

  345. 345
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’m waiting for Porgie to weigh in

  346. 346
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I am guessing that it won’t happen, but a few days from now she will show up and say we refuse to discuss her issue.

  347. 347
    randy khan says:

    @Steve in the ATL:

    I’m just one of those crazy, idealistic 57-year old kids.

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