Shit sandwich

Remember that wave of relief when you saw the credentials of the guy Trump picked to take over Flynn’s job? Looks like he felt a different kind of wave.

President Donald Trump’s choice for national security adviser, retired Vice Admiral Robert Harward, has turned down the offer, a senior White House official said on Thursday.

The lucky winner of this job will get to split his time between a demented, sadistic three year old and an intelligence community who hates the guy even more than I do. Whee.

BTW I think the intelligence community basically decided to do to Trump exactly what Russia did to Hillary. If you leak the incriminating evidence all at once the story will flare up and burns out. It’s survivable. If you leak the details out in a thousand small releases spaced out over weeks to months, the story never ends. Each day’s release gives Trump a chance to deny something without knowing whether the next day’s release will prove him a liar. If I am right then the folks coordinating the internal resistance have already gamed out where this is all going.

Look at this a different way. Where is the internal pushback? Imagine the alternative scenario I have heard right wingers toss around, a small faction of intelligence operatives went rogue to undermine the President. That would rightly horrify their levelheaded colleagues. I mean, the stereotypical CIA employee is a conservative, white, ex-military security expert. In other words, a Republican. Langley is full of folks who should be on the phone with the Wall Street Journal in under a millisecond pushing back on this craziness. Not only are many of these guys sentimentally aligned with Trump (in theory), they stand to be rewarded lavishly for exposing a treasonous plot. The fact that nobody has, yet, suggests that the feeling about Trump is pretty damn widespread.

I can’t wait to find out what kind of person would willingly take that job. I hear John Bolton is free.


BTW Alex Acosta, Trump’s labor pick, is basically GENERIC REPUBLICAN FIXER in human form. He helped gut the DoJ’s Civil Rights Division under Bush and then organized GOP voter caging in Ohio in 2004. I think we can safely expect him to keep his head down, make as few waves as possible, and quietly string dynamite around the foundation of unions in America.

86 replies
  1. 1
    hugely says:

    oh thats a spinal tap reference – I think Doug’s titles are harder

  2. 2
    Baud says:

    I’m almost tempted to write a flattering letter to Trump just to see if he would offer me the job.

  3. 3
    Wapiti says:

    I’d suggest that there is no cabal of IC personnel coordinating their stories. That would be conspiracy, and would put the leakers at risk. Instead, what might be going on is that a number of leakers are independently doing a slow drip leak, and the press is receiving/cross-checking/publishing. It looks like a coordinated flow, but that’s because there’s only a few press outlets. Just a supposition.

  4. 4
    father pussbucket says:

    The lucky winner of this job gets to split his time sandwiched between a demented, sadistic three year old and an intelligence community who hates the guy even more than I do.


  5. 5
    sigaba says:

    Now we go nuclear. IC war going to new levels. Just got an EM fm senior IC friend, it began: “He will die in jail.”

    How do I send John Schindler’s source a beer?

  6. 6
    lollipopguild says:

    People who work in the military and in intel also know that Donnie dumbass could get a lot of them killed in his “ooops i started a war!” stylings. We do not know yet but they may also have hard evidence that trump is an out-right traitor.

  7. 7
    PK says:

    I hear John Bolton is free.

    We lucked out because Trump did not like his mustache. God forbid he should shave it off.

  8. 8
    Gian says:


    now you have me picturing dolores umbridge chasing “dumbledore’s army”

  9. 9
    Felonius Monk says:

    I hear John Bolton is free.

    No!No!No! —- We know what John Bolton is. They are just haggling over the price.

  10. 10

    @Baud: Do you enjoy shit sandwiches?

  11. 11
    NotMax says:

    But it’s the best, the greatest, the most fantastic shit sandwich ever.

  12. 12
    JGabriel says:

    Jake Tapper (via Tim F. @ Top):

    A friend of Harward’s says he was reluctant to take NSA job bc the WH seems so chaotic; says Harward called the offer a “shit sandwich.”

    TPM is reporting that the deal-breaker was also that Harwood couldn’t bring in his own team, and that he would have to keep KT McFarland as deputy:

    Harward turned down the job after the White House resisted his demands to install his own staff on the security council, CBS News reported, citing two unnamed sources close to the situation.

    At particular issue was the position of deputy national security adviser. According to CBS News’ report, Trump told KT McFarland that she could keep her job after former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn resigned on Monday, but Harward refused to retain her as his deputy. …

    He was “conflicted between the call of duty and the obvious dysfunctionality,” an unnamed source with first hand knowledge of Trump and Harward’s discussions said as quoted by the Financial Times.

    Sounds like Trump can’t close a deal after all …

    (As if we all didn’t already know that.)

  13. 13
    Baud says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: I’m here, aren’t I?

  14. 14
    scav says:

    @Wapiti: There’s still no apparent pushback, and a nod is as good as a wink even to people not really really really used to being sneaky.

  15. 15
    SFAW says:


    I’m almost tempted to write a flattering letter to Trump just to see if he would offer me the job.

    He would — unless he found out that you’re running against him in 2020. What’s it worth to youse for me to keep it on the Q.T.?

  16. 16
    steppy says:

    The IC is good at doing this sort of thing, and they would think nothing of ruining the likes of this president*, conspiracy be damned. The president* is messing with the wrong people and seemingly doesn’t realize it or thinks he can outsmart them. Good luck with that.

  17. 17

    @Baud: But you left GOS, so the question remains.

  18. 18
    hovercraft says:

    Just be sure the only big words you use are the ones that flatter him, if you use big fancy words to describe your expertise, he’ll realize you’re smarter than him and pass.

  19. 19
    zhena gogolia says:


    You are so funny.

  20. 20
    Uncle Omar says:

    Does anyone believe for a minute that Flynn “acted alone” when he made those phone calls to the Russians? No half way rational military person would have done that unless a superior told him to and even then if he was half smart he would at least ask “Are you sure about that, boss?” If anyone believes he “acted alone,” on his won initiative, I have some ocean front property in Utah to sell.

  21. 21
    Baud says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: You saying the Trump administration is as bad as GOS? Wow.

  22. 22

    @Baud: GOS is better organized, excuse me, gotta pick up the dog shit in the back before it starts raining. They’ve reduced the forecast to only 4.5″ or rain tonight and tomorrow.

  23. 23
    humboldtblue says:

    Ya’ll motherfuckers need Jesus, and in Jesus I mean Guadalajara Jesus, or in this brilliant and much more appealing case, Mariachi Flor De Toloache.

  24. 24
    Baud says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: That was quite a segue.

  25. 25
    amk says:

    @Baud: but do you know how to use the word bigly? yes, it matters.

  26. 26
    Jack the Second says:

    What do you think the chances are that Harward called up his buddies in the intelligence community and they unanimously told him not to take the job and why?

  27. 27
    Aleta says:

    (–Think Progress) A group of men were reportedly arrested by immigration agents as they left a church-run hypothermia shelter last Wednesday, hinting that federal officials may be targeting houses of worship as they continue a recent wave of deportation raids.

    According to NBC Washington, the incident took place in Alexandria, Virginia outside a hypothermia shelter owned by Rising Hope Mission Church, a United Methodist congregation. A group of men exited the shelter around 6:45 a.m. last Wednesday and stopped in a 7-Eleven next door, a ritual they say they do every morning.

    But as soon as they crossed the street, the men say they were suddenly surrounded by a police vehicles and a team of shouting Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents who forced them to stand against a nearby wall. Officials then allegedly began questioning the men and scanning their fingers to determine if any had criminal backgrounds. Witnesses told NBC Washington that six men were ultimately arrested and hauled away in two vans.

    “Like it was a setup or something,” Thermon Brewster, who was at the scene but was not arrested, told Connection Newspapers. Another witness added: “It happened really fast, it was like a kidnapping.”

    The incident hedges close to violating an internal ICE policy that discourages agents from raiding churches, schools, or hospitals. “They were clearly targeting the church because they knew that they stayed here in the hypothermia shelter,” Rev. Keary Kincannon, a pastor at Rising Hope Mission Church, told NBC Washington. “So they were waiting for them to cross the street and then jump on them.”

    (–Roanoke Times) Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe is asking the head of the Department of Homeland Security whether immigration agents are improperly targeting places of worship to question and detain people who may be in the country without legal permission.

    The Democratic governor’s Thursday letter to DHS Secretary John Kelly comes as some are questioning the way Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials are handling arrests in Northern Virginia after at least two men were arrested near a church shelter.

    Oscar Ramirez told WRC-TV he left the shelter at Rising Hope Mission Church in Alexandria on Feb. 8 when about a dozen ICE agents surrounded him and other Latino men. Ramirez said the agents questioned them and scanned their fingers. He said about six Latino men were arrested and taken away in vans.

    An ICE spokeswoman said the agency’s “sensitive location” policy was followed, which requires agents to avoid arresting people at places of worship, schools and medical facilities. She said the arrests took place across the street and not on church property.

    In his letter to Kelly, McAuliffe said he was “particularly concerned” about the WRC-TV report. McAuliffe asked Kelly some pointed questions, including what criteria immigrations agents are using to stop people for questioning.

  28. 28
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Dignity Wraiths: The Wraithening Continues

    The Boston GlobeVerified account
    ‏@ BostonGlobe
    Chris Christie says President Trump made him order meatloaf when they dined together at the White House this week

    I thin Christie would put on a pink tutu and dance for Trump if so told, but “making” CC eat meatloaf would require about as much force as making me eat meatloaf. That is to say, not much. But when you’ve been mocked for being Trump’s office boy for a year, why would you put this out there

  29. 29

    @Baud: To the rain or the dog shit? Seriously, what do think is in a shit sandwich?

  30. 30
    amk says:

    talking of shit sammiches, at least joe manchin should be ‘appy.

  31. 31
    Tim F. says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Oh my god the picture in that story. I had to check Google to see whether Christie’s wife always looks that way (short answer: no). She looks like the dinner scene from Alien is happening just out of the shot.

  32. 32
    NotMax says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Costs of private meals come out of the president’s pocket.

    Wanna bet meatloaf was the cheapest item on the menu?

  33. 33
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Aleta: Be prepared for more of this — it’s pure Theater of Cruelty. Just like the travel bans.

    Trump promised his supporters he’d get people. Get the Mexicans. Get the Muslims. Get the uppity blahs. Get the wimmen. Get the liberals. Get. Get. Get. This is what ‘getting’ looks like.

    His voters think that’s what a state is for — and Trump apparently has just as sophisticated a conception.

    The actual numbers of victims can be quite small, provided the actions are dramatic enough, because the theater, and not the total # of deportations, is what the fans want to see.

    Probably based on wrestling, or something.

  34. 34
    Baud says:

    @Davis X. Machina: Agreed. They’ll probably turn it into a reality show.

  35. 35
    Aleta says:

    @Baud: Oh he would jump at the chance. Then he’d dangle your particulars in front of the Wash. Post, ask you to make a dramatic journey along a runway of sorts, pull the rug out at the last minute, and charge you for the glass of water.

  36. 36
    Thru the Looking Glass... says:

    @Uncle Omar:

    Does anyone believe for a minute that Flynn “acted alone” when he made those phone calls to the Russians?

    i couldn’t agree more w/ you… I love it when Manafort and Page keep pleading innocence here…

    I am so hoping the ‘Golden Showers’ rumors turn out to be true…

  37. 37

    @Aleta: Wait, Baud has particulars?

  38. 38
    Immanentize says:

    @lollipopguild: I wonder if his people outed our assets in Russia who were arrested. That would end someone up in jail. Or elsewhere.

  39. 39
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @amk: Joe Manchin is dumb as shit. I honestly hope he loses the next election, because he’s been next to fucking worthless when it comes to the atrocity that are Trump’s cabinet nominees. WV Democrats are fucked with him and Jim Justice as their leaders.

    I will believe the IC is out to torpedo Trump when the video of Trump banging Russian hookers or watching them water the bed in the Ritz comes out. Until then, this talk of Deep State, etc. is really bordering on the edge of conspiracy theory.

    Maybe they will unleash the hounds there’s a Democrat (Pelosi) in line for the presidency. I would imagine the career types think the GOP have lost all morals given that none of them have bothered trying to meaningfully stand up to Trump. John McCain bleating like the neutered, spineless jellyfish he is does not count. Same goes for Sweet Lindsay.

  40. 40
    Baud says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: I have three.

    @Immanentize: Good call.

  41. 41
    NotMax says:

    @Thru the Looking Glass…

    Manafort lives in Dolt 45’s NYC tower. Does anyone seriously believe he’s not in contact?

  42. 42
    Dan says:

    I wouldn’t trust a single thing this John Schindler guy says:

    One, he works for the Observer, which is Jared Kushner’s rag.
    Two, his twitter handle is “20commitee”:

    Check your sources…

  43. 43
    Aleta says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: I’ll wait while you subdue your imagination.

  44. 44
    Thru the Looking Glass... says:

    @NotMax: Right…

    I amazed these clowns and step in front of a camera, say what they say, and not break down laughing…

    My brain is going into vapor lock just thinking about it…

  45. 45
    efgoldman says:


    talking of shit sammiches, at least joe manchin should be ‘appy.

    So should all his constituents, when they start glowing in the dark, and their kids die by grade school.

  46. 46
    Mike J says:

    @Jack the Second:

    What do you think the chances are that Harward called up his buddies in the intelligence community and they unanimously told him not to take the job and why?

    Much more likely that the story we’ve heard is the truth. He told Trump he’d do it if he could clean house and run things his way. Trump said no, Harward said fuck off.

  47. 47
    Tripod says:

    A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

  48. 48
    The Thin Black Duke says:

    @Tim F.: I remember the infamous photograph a few years ago when Mrs.Christie was laughing as her asshole husband was yelling at a schoolteacher, so I hope she’s enjoying the taste of the shit sandwich that karma left on her plate.

  49. 49
    sigaba says:

    @PsiFighter37: Manchin will filibuster ACA repeal, that’s much more important than the cabinet appointments, which despite being awful are foregone conclusions.

  50. 50
    rikyrah says:

    @Uncle Omar:
    Nope. Nobody thinks that he acted alone

  51. 51
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @rikyrah: Mika might.

  52. 52
    tBone says:


    I will believe the IC is out to torpedo Trump when the video of Trump banging Russian hookers or watching them water the bed in the Ritz comes out. Until then, this talk of Deep State, etc. is really bordering on the edge of conspiracy theory.

    Huh? What do you think these leaks are about, then?

    I think the reason we haven’t seen a smoking gun (or sopping bed) yet is because the leakers are hoping (probably in vain) to force Congress to get off their fucking asses and actually fulfill their oversight role before they have to start releasing the really damaging stuff. They know, much better than we do, that undermining the civilian leadership of our country is extremely dangerous ground to be treading.

  53. 53
    BlueDWarrior says:

    @efgoldman: you know how this works, everything will be the fault of the mythical liberals that only exist in thier head.

    The part that makes me most depressed is that we are heading for, if not already at, a situation where it won’t matter that California has more people in it than all of flyover country put together, the nature of our system makes to where conservatives, by their geographical breadth, can dominate everything.

    I’m just distraught that so many people want to burn everything down because they are no longer the axis of cultural dominance. The society has passed them by, and it must be punished – and the only way they got is a permanent conservative politics that makes it impossible to address liberals’ concerns in a systemic fashion.

  54. 54
    Mike in NC says:

    My limited experience with Intel types was when a Navy Intelligence officer came aboard our ship in the Persian Gulf to conduct an orientation briefing. He was holding a glass of water, and when he finished the question we all had was if the level in the glass had increased or decreased.

  55. 55
    stinger says:

    So did Republican Trump announce this appointment before Harward had accepted it?

  56. 56
    🚸 Martin says:

    @Mike J:

    Trump said no, Harward said fuck off

    Trump or Bannon?

  57. 57
    Bupalos says:

    wow, I have the audio of the presser today running in the background, and I’m telling yall, this audio will be part of art installations in coming decades. It’s incredible, the monotone horror. Fine tuned machine. It’s unbelievable. It’s incredible. Unbelievably good. You all know that. You know what I’m talking about. It’s such a disaster, what’s going on there, and there’s so much happening, it’s going to be great. You don’t even know. Some of you do. You know who you are.

  58. 58
    Aleta says:

    @BlueDWarrior: We’re being colonized and plundered.

  59. 59
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @🚸 Martin: I’d be surprised if demoting Bannon from the NSC council wasn’t part of the house cleaning Harward wanted to do.

    In the meantime…

    Eliana Johnson ‏@ elianayjohnson 1h1 hour ago
    Situation at WH — A senior NSC aide said to me: “I don’t know anything. Nobody knows anything. I don’t know who knows anything.”

  60. 60
    efgoldman says:


    So did Republican Trump announce this appointment before Harward had accepted it?

    Not formally. It was widely leaked.

  61. 61
    efgoldman says:

    @🚸 Martin:

    Trump or Bannon?

    It was Tangerine Tumor speaking, but Bannonazi’s hand up his back moving his mouth.

  62. 62
    🚸 Martin says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I guarantee demoting him was a requirement.

    Put another way, why the hell would the Obama folk be okay with him if they didn’t count on him demanding that.

  63. 63
    Bupalos says:

    Here’s the thing. This guy is NOT going to make it. He’s already melting…not ready for prime time, not even if all the brownshirts come out for him. It’s not going to be a regular 4-year administration.

    Do the dems start working the aftermath now? We could get gains propping this guy up. We could conceivably get things like medicaid expansion enshrined, because pretty soon this guy is going to have to start lashing around in all directions, not just toward fascism. It’s going to be wild. Or do we just terminate with extreme prejudice and work on the aftermath after the reset?

  64. 64
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    ICE = The Geheimne Staatspolizei of the Trump tyranny.

  65. 65
    Bupalos says:

    @efgoldman: LEAKS?!??! LEAKS?!!! THATS ELEEEGAL!!!!!

  66. 66
    Bupalos says:

    Check out the presser’s 1st q. Mara Laison, look at what she’s doing after she asks her illegible question that must have been some version of “Mike Flynn??” And then she’s flipping pages.

    What is she doing? What is she thinking? What is this?

  67. 67
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: The shittiness that they are showing themselves capable of is amazing.

  68. 68
    Suffragete City elftx says:

    Wow that was enjoyable!!

  69. 69
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @tBone: It is looking more and more like they have no other choice. The GOP, made up of feckless cowards who put party before country instinctively, will not behave like a second co-equal branch of government to oversee the executive.

  70. 70
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Were you ever given an illegal order in the army? I was once. It was kind of scary, but I said, “I can’t do that, sir. If we need to, we can see the C.O,” That ended it.

  71. 71
    Thru the Looking Glass... says:


    It’s not going to be a regular 4-year administration.

    Well shitshitshitshitshit…

    He ain’t gonna last four months…

    I have NEVER seen anything like this… the final week before the election, I started thinking about the people Trump would bring w/ him if he did win… and I got really, really scared…

    There are two outcomes here I’m really hoping for…

    1) all of this doesn’t result in WW III…

    2) it destroys the Republican Party for decades to come…

  72. 72
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Thru the Looking Glass…:

    There are two outcomes here I’m really hoping for…

    1) all of this doesn’t result in WW III…

    2) it destroys the Republican Party for decades to come…


  73. 73
    efgoldman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Were you ever given an illegal order in the army? I was once. It was kind of scary

    But if the Sir giving the order lives in the White House?

  74. 74
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: No, I was never put in that situation. I missed something similar by about 7 months, though. My successor as adjutant of a unit in Korea was faced with something close to it…he discovered that the battalion commander had altered his OER block diagram. He was senior rated by a two-star, and the two star had two blocked, instead of one blocked him. The battalion commander changed that.

    The story was related to me by a GS-12 who worked at my old unit, when I ran into him at a conference at I Corps HQ at Fort Lewis.

  75. 75
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @efgoldman: The responsibility is the same. The pressure is different. I know what I did in my situation. I can’t say what I would do in a different situation. I hope I would do the right thing.

  76. 76
    J R in WV says:

    @Tim F.:

    So President* Trump signed a bill deleting the Office of Surface Mining’s Stream Protection Rule, which keeps would have kept mining companies from dumping waste into streams, which, way downstream, become the drinking water supply for large cities.

    Now you too can drink water with selenium, cadmium, and other poisonous heavy metals in it. Thanks mining industry!

    At the same time, our newly elected Democratic* governor Jim Justice has stopped state Department of Environmental Protection staff from enforcing state oil and gas regulations, including fracking rules, coal mining regulations, etc. In his speech gov Justice complained that DEP field staff “hadn’t shaved in three months”, wore flipflops and jeans and made other ridiculous claims which I must address:

    First, if you haven’t shaved in three months, you have a beard. In West Virginia, the WVU Mountaineer si the school mascot, a position of great honor, and excepting the few women (1) all have beards, a WV tradition.

    Second, no one in their right mind would wear flipflops on an industrial site. DEP issues very expensive protective boots to field inspectors, because anything less leads to injuries. On rare occasions field scientists working sampling aquatic life from small streams may not wear issue uniforms as shorts and tennis shoes are safer while wading in small creeks.

    I worked in software development at WV DEP for a couple of decades and NEVER saw field enforcement staff look as described by Justice. That’s why the agency issues uniforms. Most of those inspectors are ex-military and/or ex-LEO, not groups given to being sloppy in uniform.

    Justice is working to kill a reg that would limit noise and light on 20/7 drilling platforms next to people’s homes. So now they won’t need mufflers on those V-8 diesel engines, or to point the high-output night shift flood lamps away from people’s bedroom windows. Won’t make the O&G industry a fortune, just allows them to fuck with citizens for the pleasure of it.

    These people are out of control, going to shit in our streams that people drink from, destroy nature everywhere there is a nickel to be made, ignore common sense manners. How do they think someone going without sleep, who lives way up a hollow because they don’t tolerate city life well, who isn’t used to strangers around his home is going to react to this kind of abuse?

    These folks are often well armed, and drilling equipment, while strongly engineered for forces expected in the course of drilling and fracking, isn’t equipped to withstand the energies found when a 160gr full metal jacket round impacts a critical joint or valve or regulator a 3000fps. This could cause a catastrophe a long way away from fire departments, medical services, etc.

    But we don’t want to have to locate our drilling pads away from residences, because that would be knuckling under to farmers (aka land owners), and oil and gas roughnecks don’t do that!

    Coal companies don’t want to have to keep their toxic slime out of creeks, because it’s cheaper to just let it flow away from the plant than to build pads to collect it for treatment. And cheaper is better, just ask governor Jim Justice! Billionaire Coal Man and fancy resort owner. Really!

  77. 77
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @J R in WV: Some Dasani water was found to have worms. Are we going back to 1770s beer for breakfast?

  78. 78
    humboldtblue says:

    @Suffragete City elftx:

    Yeah it was! Makes a good buzz a Thursday night dance party.

    Gets you warmed up for Monsieur Perine

  79. 79
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    @J R in WV:

    And cheaper is better, just ask governor Jim Justice! Billionaire Coal Man and fancy resort owner. Really!

    So why is it so hard to get people to vote against poisoning themselves and their families?

    It’s “What’s the matter with Kansas” in another state.

  80. 80
    BlueDWarrior says:

    @J R in WV: I’m starting to wonder if there really is a mass masochism that requires rural state voters to vote for people who will metaphorically beat them to within an inch of their life.

    And yet they get 2 Senators, and by extension the ability to ensure the Senate will only ever approve of ‘conservative’ policy, regardless of eho has the gavel.

  81. 81
    efgoldman says:

    @J R in WV:

    Now you too can drink water with selenium, cadmium, and other poisonous heavy metals in it. Thanks mining industry!

    So nobody in WVa votes, I guess. Or has a state legislator they can call.
    They DO have telephones there, right? And elections, also too.
    Won’t be many coal tailings after the remaining mines close because nobody wants to buy the shit any more. Saw, I think here the other night, that the costs of eco-friendly energy and the costs of extraction are crossing, or close to it.

  82. 82
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Viva BrisVegas:

    why is it so hard to get people to vote against poisoning themselves and their families?


  83. 83
    montanareddog says:

    @Tim F.: They look like a couple on Property Wars who are being told, by an off-camera presenter, that the house they just bought at auction is structurally-unsound and needs to be torn down.

  84. 84
    J R in WV says:


    Lots of West Virginians vote, most of them are registered Dems in the south, Republicans in a stripe across the middle of the state and up east into the panhandle. But even people who live where there isn’t any coal seem to believe that Big Coal is all that WV has, the only chance not just he main chance.

    The DEP’s coal people believe, many of them, that they need to help coal along by allowing those huge industrial plants to run wild, do as they wish, or they’ll pick up and go away. Really, coal hasn’t been the main chance for a couple of decades, except in parts of the state with no other jobs at all.

    The little towns around us, with two hardware stores and three gas stations, three of those stores are going to close, because their customers made all their money, directly or indirectly from the coal business. The machine shops, which were good jobs, no coal dust, regular shifts, are closed, their customers were rebuilding mining machines, a technical task with precision hydraulics and heavy-duty electrical motors and controls.

    When I was a kid we would drive through Fayetteville to a state park, Hawk’s Nest, with a convoy of 2 or 3 cars to hold all the aunts and uncles and cousins. It was a very still town, with big homes on huge lots, one drug store, 2 or 3 lawyers offices around the county courthouse. Once rich, then sleeping the sleep of a county seat where the coal was mined out and gone.

    When I came home from the Navy, my Dad was excited that a couple of small companies were getting customers to raft New River. We would camp on the river bank and play in the river and fish in the trout creeks spilling into the very big water of the New, and not see a single person for a week. Now it’s a National River, same as a national park.

    And Fayetteville is full of life, old buildings repurposed to the tourists coming from all over the world to climb the rock walls on the New River Gorge, fly on the zip lines, use every kind of boat on the rivers, eat at huge food camps, there are book stores in abandoned churches, and money flows through new veins. Some of the old money people wish very hard that that new money wasn’t there, that they were well-to-do people in their sleepy, empty town. Where there was a tiny movie theater open for one show on Friday and two on Saturday, that no one comes to.

    Tamarack center, a state-built arts and crafts center, allows people to make a living doing high-level glass blowing, blacksmithery, furniture building, weaving, quilts, paintings, making old-fashioned muzzle-loader rifles by hand that sell for $3,500… it exists because of tourists passing through, or coming to do the river, or run four-wheeler ATVs on the Hatfield-McCoy trails.

    If the Coal Men had their way, the state would be mostly a blasted, burnt, rubble of over-burden, once the living soil that covered the green rolling hills and steep mountains, now a tumble of gullied toxic rock and mud, that only the most ghoulish would want to see. One DEP director was well known to have meetings to review a big mining permit. He would ask one important-to-him questions “How much of the job can they see from the public roads around it?” If the answer was none, you were good to go mine coal. Otherwise, you were encouraged to continue with permit revisions, until your boundary allowed, well, perhaps a tiny slice of a view of a tiny percent of your job, if the weather was good and the leaves were off the trees.

    I grew up when and where there were deserts where you could drive in with a Jeep or truck and do anything, shoot skeet, or the abandoned steam shovels, dump trash, burn a stolen car, break open a stolen coke machine destroying a $2000 machine for $50 worth of pop. No one cared, would hear the shots, see the new trash on top of the old trash, the bones of the earth left to simmer in the sun. They looked like the badlands of the west, only handmade.

    Now those places have been smoothed over and planted with fast-growing trash weeds and the roads in blocked with tall piles of big rocks and mud.

    One of the biggest is the site of a 30,000 acre Boy Scout Reservation, with something like an undisclosed location underneath. A “gift” of the Bechtal Corp Foundation.

    And tourists ride around them, paying good money to bring their ATVs in from Michigan or Illinois, convoys of folks with trucks and trailers filled with $5K machines and camping gear to ride the 2200 miles of trails through and around the old mined out industrial sites.

  85. 85
    prob50 says:


    Sounds like Trump can’t close a deal after all …

    Oh, no, he closes LOTSA DEALS…it’s just that everybody except Trump loses their ass when it goes bad and winds up with a Fabulously Famous Double-Double-Donald Trump Shit Sandwich.

    And it’s ALWAYS somebody else’s fault.

  86. 86
    prob50 says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    making” CC eat meatloaf

    Yeah, and imagine the amount of coercive abuse it took to get CC to eat the mashed potatoes with extra gravy.

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