Crikey, what a drongo

[ETA: Bonus points to CNN for the Breaking News banner.]

Malcolm Turnbull may be a bit of a cock, but he’s going to come out of this looking quite good domestically, if only from sheer relief he isn’t Donald Fucking Trump. Standing up to a rich dickhead gets you a fair bit of kudos down here (even if you’re a rich dickhead with a sideline in migrant scaremongering yourself). Malcolm might be a folk hero in the line of Ned Kelly and Breaker Morant come morning.

Mark Kenny in the Sydney Morning Herald:

The corollary point is that Trump is the Mad King: volatile, vainglorious, and untrustworthy. Turnbull is right to handle him with kid gloves. …

Australian government sources confirm the Washington Post’s story is substantially correct. Trump was angry, did describe the Obama deal as the worst he’d seen, and did treat the Australian leader with contempt.

But Turnbull persisted.

Presumably someone who stood up to Margaret Thatcher, Kerry Packer, and Conrad Black has seen bravado and alpha-male bullying before.

Heroically, the government still hopes to salvage its deal over the 1250 refugees, despite equivocations and a bizarre tweet by Trump on Thursday afternoon which appears to have all but killed it off.

The pre-eminent danger now is not this precarious deal, but the risk of sustained damage to the US-Australian relationship.

Trump is now gainsaying his own private commitments, via Twitter. This is an extraordinary situation and one that is almost impossible to manage. American prestige is on the line.

World leaders be warned: Trump’s conversations are not private and his word, unreliable.

Australians take their relationship, and their long history of mateship, with America very seriously. This won’t damage that greatly long term, but I don’t think Lord Dampnut (h/t Anymouse at LGF) will be getting an invitation for a Presidential* tour of Australia any time soon.

This saddens me, because I was looking forward to seeing Australians welcome Trump. The protest signs would have been epic. And I might have had the chance to sneak a funnel web spider into the reception and drop it down Donald’s pants. Those things are fucking terrifying.






201 replies
  1. 1
    Betty Cracker says:

    American prestige is on the line? I think it’s pretty much in the toilet.

  2. 2
    rachel says:

    An Australian I worked with said he wanted Trump to win the election. (He hated Hillary; not sure why.) I wonder what he thinks of Donny-Boy now.

  3. 3
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    Oh look, a bus!

    U.S. military officials also said that the raid was approved by President Trump without sufficient intelligence or ground support.

  4. 4
    Jeffro says:

    Besides this cock-up, Trumpov also managed to tweet that

    1) “…Chief Ryan Owens'[SEAL killed in Yemen raid, along with an 8-year-old girl] Dignified Transfer yesterday with my daughter Ivanka was my great honor. To a great and brave man – thank you!” Please note how the Asshole-in-Chief worked his daughter into the message, that it was ‘my’ (i.e., Trump’s) great honor. Because nothing shows class and dignity like thanking a dead soldier in a tweet.

    2) “If U.C. Berkeley does not allow free speech and practices violence on innocent people with a different point of view [i.e., Milo Yiannopolous, dickhead RWNJ performance artist]- NO FEDERAL FUNDS?” Meanwhile, still no message of sympathy to Canada for the 6 folks who were shot up at their mosque also by…hey…a RWNJ! And a white male Trump fan at that.

    Trump-creature is all about the intimidation, all the time.

  5. 5
    Jeffro says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: Love it. Do it, Trump, go after the military for letting you and Herr Bannon down…they failed you, right? We’ll be hearing that from him before the day is through, I’m calling Vegas right now to place that bet.

  6. 6
    Gin & Tonic says:

    So according to my Twitter feed, Il Donaldo is speaking at the national prayer breakfast.

    He’s talking about the ratings success of “The Apprentice.”

    Yes.

  7. 7
    Sarah, Proud and Tall says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:

    I’m sure some front pager will be along soon with a post about that addition to the Dolt 45 honour roll of dumbfuckery. I’m a bit too drunk and stuffed with chargrilled hanger steak with sweet and sour garlic and raisin sauce.

  8. 8
    Taylor says:

    Wait, the information about Trump/ Turnbull communication leaked from the US side?

  9. 9
    Gin & Tonic says:

    And in other news, I hear through an Eastern European friend that someone registered breitbartnews.de (i.e. Germany) and it now redirects to an anti-fascist site.

  10. 10
    danielx says:

    I have found it.

    This is my place and these are my people.

    ETA: Most particularly in these trying times, it would be good to have someplace where greeting the day with a snarl would go unremarked.

  11. 11
    sherparick says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Because it is all about the ratings, which are just Yooge, and making a buck. The Evangelical grifters in the audience appreciate it, but I think are worried that he might spoil the whole grift.

  12. 12
    rikyrah says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    He’s talking about the ratings success of “The Apprentice.”

    Yes.

    STOP IT!!

  13. 13
    Sarah, Proud and Tall says:

    @Taylor:

    Yep. To the Washington Post. Apparently.

  14. 14
    JPL says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Let us pray for Arnold. Trump is concerned because he’s still on the payroll.

    @Taylor: My guess is someone wants to see Pence promoted.

  15. 15
    SenyorDave says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: U.S. military officials also said that the raid was approved by President Trump without sufficient intelligence or ground support.

    I think everything Donny Boy does is without sufficient intelligence.

  16. 16
    ThresherK says:

    I had to look up drongo.

    I would not mind if the Aussies gave the Scots some competition in the Trump Nickname Derby.

  17. 17

    @Jeffro: As I noted in a previous thread, I guess Dolt45 is not familiar with the Lawrence Livermore Lab* which is run by UC Berkeley.

    *They design and build nukes there.

  18. 18
    JPL says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: He’ll just transfer the work to Trump U. I’m saying that in jest, I think.

  19. 19
    Martha says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: which, in my day, was a reason for protest! God I’m old. But I do love my alma mater. So there’s that.

  20. 20
    JPL says:

    This is from Senator Chris Murphy
    I made a Top 100 Possible Trump Administration Foreign Crises list & I gotta admit “Rupturing US-Australia Relations” was NOT on there.

  21. 21
  22. 22
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    World leaders be warned: Trump’s conversations are not private and his word, unreliable.

    No shit, Sherlock.

    Although his word is grievously reliable when it comes to banning Muslims, environmental depradation, assault on women’s rights, and so on. Funnel web spiders are too good for him.

  23. 23

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    As I noted in a previous thread, I guess Dolt45 is not familiar with the Lawrence Livermore Lab* which is run by UC Berkeley.

    *They design and build nukes there.

    I’ve been wondering, where is San Francisco relative to there for when China nukes Livermore? The painful radiation death radius? Although at this rate maybe I should expect Australia to do it.

  24. 24
    raven says:

    @Jeffro: And it was “beautiful”.

  25. 25
    rikyrah says:

    Congressional Republicans deliver for the oil industry
    02/02/17 09:21 AM
    By Steve Benen

    Big Oil had quite a day in Washington yesterday. Rex Tillerson, the former ExxonMobil CEO, was sworn in as the new Secretary of State, despite the fact that he has literally no experience in official diplomacy or foreign policy. The final vote was 56 to 43, with literally every Republican in the Senate supporting the nomination – including those who scoffed initially after Donald Trump announced Tillerson’s nomination last year.

    Just a few hours before the vote, Politico published an interesting piece about Tillerson personally having lobbied Congress during the Wall Street reform effort, urging lawmakers to reject a provision that “required drilling and mining companies to disclose any payments they make to foreign governments.”

    Tillerson reportedly argued at the time that forcing oil companies to disclose such payments “would put them at a competitive disadvantage. He also explained that the provision would make it especially difficult for Exxon to do business in Russia, where, as he did not need to explain, the government takes a rather active interest in the oil industry.”

    That, of course, was in 2010, when there were sizable Democratic majorities in both chamber of Congress, and when the ExxonMobil CEO’s pleas were largely ignored. The Wall Street reform legislation passed anyway, the provision was included in the bill, and some other countries soon after followed our lead and approved similar disclosure requirements for oil companies.

    Vox noted yesterday what’s become of this provision in the law.

    Using the little-known Congressional Review Act, the House GOP voted on Wednesday to kill an Obama-era regulation that would require publicly traded oil, gas, and mining companies to disclose any payments that they made to foreign governments, including taxes and royalties.

    The roll call on the vote is online here. Note that 98% of House Republicans voted to kill the disclosure requirement, while 98% of House Democrats voted to keep the requirement in place.

  26. 26
    rikyrah says:

    Key questions surround Trump’s first military raid
    02/02/17 08:42 AM—UPDATED 02/02/17 09:35 AM
    By Steve Benen

    It’s been described as a mission in which “almost everything went wrong.” As we discussed yesterday, the first military raid ordered by Donald Trump was launched on Sunday in Yemen, and the plan was to acquire intelligence and equipment at an al Qaeda camp.

    What transpired was a fight that left three al Qaeda leaders dead, but also killed Chief Petty Officer William “Ryan” Owen, a member of SEAL Team 6, and Nawar al-Awlaki, an 8-year-old girl born in the United States whose father was an al Qaeda leader killed several years ago. A New York Times report noted, “There are allegations — which the Pentagon acknowledged on Wednesday night are most likely correct — that the mission also killed several civilians, including some children.”

    The piece added, “[A]lmost everything that could go wrong did.”

    The question now is who, if anyone, bears responsibility for the deadly incident. This Reuters report suggests some in the military are looking at the White House.

    U.S. military officials told Reuters that Trump approved his first covert counterterrorism operation without sufficient intelligence, ground support or adequate backup preparations.

    As a result, three officials said, the attacking SEAL team found itself dropping onto a reinforced al Qaeda base defended by landmines, snipers, and a larger than expected contingent of heavily armed Islamist extremists.

  27. 27
    rikyrah says:

    THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW 2/1/17
    Senator Booker: What’s happening with Trump is worthy of outrage
    Senator Cory Booker talks with Rachel Maddow about Democratic opposition to Donald Trump’s Supreme Court pick, Neil Gorsuch, the concerns of his constituents about Trump, and the need to stay focused and resist fatigue in challenging Trump

  28. 28
    Darkrose says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: Waiting for the Congressional committees to investHAHAHAHAHAHA!

  29. 29
    rikyrah says:

    THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW 2/1/17
    Democrats forcing GOP to deal with confirmation system they broke

    David Leonhardt, writer and editor for The New York Times, talks with Rachel Maddow about why he thinks Democrats should accept that Republicans broke the confirmation system when they refused to giving Merrick Garland a hearing and should give Neil Gorsuch the same treatment.

  30. 30

    So I saw some headlines about how Republicans are changing their tack from “repealing” Obamacare or “repealing and replacing” Obamacare, to “repairing” Obamacare. So that’s good at least. Anybody read those articles?

  31. 31
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @raven: You might enjoy reading about this guy.

  32. 32
    JPL says:

    @SenyorDave:

    I think everything Donny Boy does is without sufficient intelligence.

    teeheehee

  33. 33
    japa21 says:

    I can no longer give any respect to anyone who considers themselves to be Republican. I can respect some who calls themselves conservative as long as they can define what that means. But anybody who willingly aligns with the Republican party is telling me they condone everything Trump and Bannon stand for.

  34. 34
  35. 35

    @Gin & Tonic: Jesus Christ. (And that exclamation is more reverent than Trump is being at the Prayer Breakfast)

  36. 36

    @raven: Trump has ruined the word “beautiful” for me.

  37. 37
  38. 38
    Thoroughly Pizzled says:

    Reminder that the refugees we are supposed to take from Australia are being kept in a CONCENTRATION CAMP. Australia perfected the art of mistreating immigrants before we did.

  39. 39
    amk says:

    National Prayer Breakfast- well Evangelicals you got what you wanted-a Republican President. Too bad he's insane!— Pat Fuller ☮️🗽🖖❄️ (@bannerite) February 2, 2017

  40. 40
    Betty Cracker says:

    @japa21: It’s interesting in a train-wreck sense to see how “never Trump” Republicans are coming around to Hair Furor’s point of view. Erick Erickson was huffing and puffing about Trump early on but is finding that he likes the cut of Trump’s jib after all. He can’t come right out and say so without looking like a hypocritical tool. But his tone has shifted noticeably. Just this morning, he published a piece criticizing the military officials who blame Trump for the botched Yemen raid. If Trump avoids impeachment, I predict Erick bin Erick will be a full-on supporter by 2020 — possibly as soon as this spring.

  41. 41
    Peale says:

    @rikyrah: I’m not gonna fight this one out. not to defend Trump here, but the raid probably was planned during the Obama administration and if the military thought that there were risks, they should have said something. If they did and were ignored, that’s on Trump. Otherwise it’s on them to plan raids.

  42. 42
    hovercraft says:

    @Betty Cracker:
    My thoughts exactly, what prestige, we are the biggest most frighting joke in the world. Kudo’s to anyone willing to stand up to the shitgibbon.

  43. 43

    @Betty Cracker: Yeah, I sometimes checked RedState during the election and it read like Kos diaries, now it’s back to sounding like RedState again.

  44. 44
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Iowa Old Lady: Also the thumbs-up gesture. It was never my favorite (I prefer the middle finger salute, naturally), but now thumbs-up is indelibly associated in my mind with Trump’s stumpy digits.

  45. 45
    Peale says:

    @Thoroughly Pizzled: yep. Let’s not pretend that Australia is the voice of refugee wisdom and truth.

  46. 46
    hovercraft says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
    But he said it was an Obama planned and approved raid, are you saying the president lied to us? This is so shocking, when is Jason Chavetz giving his first presser to condemn the loss of innocent lives from a badly planned raid?

  47. 47
    amk says:

    @Peale: Well, Obama did ask the military for their input and told them not.gonna.happen. twitler could have done the same thing but didn’t wanna. Instead, wanted (yet again) to go one up on his nemesis and bombed ‘beautifully’.

    Also. Too. The buck does stop at his table.

  48. 48
    rikyrah says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    So I saw some headlines about how Republicans are changing their tack from “repealing” Obamacare or “repealing and replacing” Obamacare, to “repairing” Obamacare. So that’s good at least. Anybody read those articles?

    It’s a Frank Luntz-Approved change in language.

  49. 49
    Jeffro says:

    @JPL:

    I made a Top 100 Possible Trump Administration Foreign Crises list & I gotta admit “Rupturing US-Australia Relations” was NOT on there.

    A few more of those and Murphy joins the 2020 “deep bench” ;)

  50. 50
    liberal says:

    This shit is getting worse and worse and worse. He’s clearly mentally unhinged and needs to be removed from office. Before he gets us into a shooting war with someone. (Right now, I’m worried about Iran and China.)

  51. 51
    joel hanes says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    American prestige is on the line? I think it’s pretty much in the toilet.

    OMFG
    http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblo.....vely-start

  52. 52
    Skippy-san says:

    As an American who has worked with the Australian military and their government-I am ashamed for my country today. These are good allies and there is no excuse for this-whatsoever. None. I am ashamed as an American that this is our president.

    The sooner DJT has a massive coronary the better.

  53. 53
    Jeffro says:

    @rikyrah: I’d like to think that at some point, most certainly out of electoral necessity and not basic human decency, some in the GOP will figure out there’s no going back on Obamacare without taking a beating at the polls. Unfortunately, that doesn’t mean they’ll leave it alone…they’ll just shift the costs from the well-off to the needy and claim they made it more ‘fiscally solvent’ or some other BS. It’ll be harder to point out what they did, but at least people with pre-existing conditions will stay covered, and so on.

    And then after 2018 and 2020, we put it back the way it was, tweak it here and there, and re-name it ObamaRocks!Care ;)

  54. 54

    @rikyrah: Same ‘ol ideas, then? Not offering repair bills, still trying to repeal? Rats.

  55. 55
    amk says:

    @Jeffro: I like #kenyankare better.

  56. 56
    Jeffro says:

    @joel hanes: One of the better comments to Trumpov’s tweet-thread noted at LGM:

    We’re not going to war with Russia – just Mexico, Iran, and China!

    Also Australia.

    And ineptly, in Yemen.

    And apparently UC Berkeley too.

    Have another huge cheeseburger or three, Don my man…

  57. 57
    Skippy-san says:

    I am ashamed to be an American.

  58. 58
    rikyrah says:

    Chinatown’s South Side neighbors see surge in Asian-American residents
    By Marwa EltagouriContact Reporter
    Chicago Tribune

    On paper, the South Side neighborhoods of Bronzeville and Canaryville could not be more different.

    The first is named for the skin color of people who migrated to the area from the South, forming Chicago’s once-bustling “Black Metropolis” of urban African-American culture. The second might be named for the sparrows that populated the area, feeding off the refuse of the since-closed Union Stock Yard, which fueled the economy of the almost all-Irish working class neighborhood for nearly a century.

    Yet strip away their racial makeup and what surface are two neighborhoods rooted in their traditions, two enclaves that until recently seemed immune to the demographic changes transforming the neighborhoods around them. Bronzeville since the 1930s has remained a largely black community, and Canaryville, nearly 50 years after the stockyards closed, remains predominantly white.

    Now, the two neighborhoods share another common thread. They’ve started to diversify and are opening their gates to the country’s fastest-growing ethnic group: Asian-Americans.

    “I think a lot of Chinese people are starting to move into those areas block by block, by word-of-mouth, and living there because housing is more affordable. I think they consider themselves safer there than they (once thought they’d be). They’re definitely a community,” said Debbie Liu, community development coordinator at the Coalition for a Better Chinese American Community.

    Chicago’s greater Chinatown population is surging. Chinatown has seen its Asian residents increase by 30 percent between 2000 and 2010, and bordering neighborhoods have seen a rush of Asian families moving in. Bridgeport’s Asian-American population grew from 26 percent in 2000 to an average of 34 percent between 2010 and 2014, while in that same time period, McKinley Park’s grew from just under 8 percent to 19 percent, according to an analysis of census data.

    The rise in Asians can be attributed to a steady stream of Chinese immigrants moving to Chicago, as well as Chinese empty-nesters leaving their suburban homes for the city, in order to seam themselves into the Chinese community. Competitive housing in Chinatown and its surrounding neighborhoods has therefore forced Asians to settle farther south and farther east — in neighborhoods like Bronzeville and Canaryville, where neighbors and experts say they’ve created their own micro-communities.

    In Bronzeville, Asians now crowd the King Drive bus, which picks up and drops off families living in high-rise apartment complexes between 27th and 35th streets. On a sunny January day, Chinese international students studying at the Illinois Institute of Technology shopped among black residents at a nearby Jewel-Osco, and two older women, groceries in hand, had a lengthy conversation in Chinese outside Dunbar High School.

    ………………

    Siu, the real estate agent and restaurant owner, immigrated to the Chicago area with his family from China when he was 16. They first settled in Hoffman Estates, and then, seven years ago, Siu moved to Chinatown. It was at that time that he bought the restaurant near Canaryville with his brother, who had just returned from the Afghanistan War and needed work. He acknowledges he was anxious doing business in the area.

    For the next six years, he’d serve Canaryville customers in his restaurant and deliver to their houses. He began to understand the working-class neighborhood and its residents, some of whom would buy just one box of white rice, the only food they could afford for the day. Sometimes, customers would enter the restaurant yelling, upset about something with their order. But the next day, Siu said, they’d come back into the restaurant as though nothing had happened. Friendly as ever.

    …………….

    Siu bought his Canaryville house last year to be closer to his restaurant, and because he believed the neighborhood to be a good place to raise his young children. As a real estate agent, he now helps Chinese immigrants settle in Canaryville, knowing the neighborhood is relatively safe and more affordable than Chinatown.

    “Neighborhoods like McKinley Park, they’re not convenient for getting to Chinatown because Archer is backed up during traffic,” he said. “And the Latino families there don’t speak English. If a (Chinese) family has a problem, if their house is broken into, they can’t communicate with their neighbors … here, they speak English.”

    …………….

    The move to Bronzeville

    Bronzeville’s history is one of segregation, and its story is one of residents trying to make the best of a difficult situation.

    ……………….

    “There are those who definitely have continued to champion the importance of Bronzeville to black Chicago and black America.”

    For decades, Bronzeville held onto those black roots. Through the 1980s, the Douglas community area, which includes Bronzeville, was 86 percent black and less than 10 percent white, and had few Asian residents, according to Paral’s analysis.

    Now, the neighborhood is 70 percent black, but the Asian population has risen to 13 percent and 12 percent of the neighborhood is white.

    Mell Monroe, president of the Bronzeville Area Residents and Commerce Council, believes older Bronzeville families’ reactions to the changing demographics, and the potential move away from a historically black community, are mixed.

    “If you’re part of the working poor, or if you’re jobless, I guess many would be unhappy, and feel like they’re getting pushed out,” he said.

    In many ways, Bronzeville is the perfect location for a new Chinese immigrant. It’s an easy train ride to the Loop, it’s close to the lake and about a half-hour bus ride to Chinatown, depending on traffic.

  59. 59
    D58826 says:

    @Jeffro:

    Meanwhile, still no message of sympathy to Canada for the 6 folks who were shot up at their mosque also by…hey…a RWNJ! And a white male Trump fan at that.

    While I’m loath to defend das Fuhrer, I thought I saw that he made a phone call to the Canadian PM to extend his sympathy. He hasn’t tweeted about it but…..

  60. 60
    rikyrah says:

    The Long-Term Economic Wreckage of Trump’s Travel Ban
    by Anne Kim February 1, 2017 2:58 PM

    After weeks of silence, U.S. business leaders have become increasingly critical of President Donald Trump’s announced ban on refugees and immigrants from seven Muslim-majority countries.

    “Trump’s actions… are so un-American it pains us all,” wrote Netflix CEO Reed Hastings in a Facebook post earlier this week, while Flickr co-founder Stewart Butterfield pronounced the ban “…gratuitously evil” in a Tweet. At the normally staid Goldman Sachs, CEO Lloyd Blankfein told employees in a voicemail that “[t]his is not a policy we support.”

    Corporate America has good reason to condemn Trump’s travel ban – it is a humanitarian travesty and an affront to American values. Moreover, its long-term impacts could wreak incalculable damage to the American economy.

    Much of the innovative energy in the United States that’s led to new jobs and economic growth has come from its immigrants. According to the 2016 Silicon Valley Index by the think tank Joint Venture, 37% of Silicon Valley residents are foreign born, including 50% of workers ages 25-44. Many of the tech world’s most prominent entrepreneurs are also immigrants, including South African-born Elon Musk, founder of Tesla and SpaceX; Google’s Sergey Brin; and Israeli-born Safra Catz, now CEO of Oracle. In fact, finds the Kauffman Foundation, more than 40 percent of Fortune 500 companies in 2010 were founded by immigrants or the child of an immigrant.

    Yet Trump’s travel ban sends a broadly anti-immigrant signal to the rest of the world just as other nations are vying for – and winning – the best and brightest minds in the increasingly global market for talent. Already, the United States is slipping in its ability to attract and retain the world’s top workers. A 2015 report by the Business Roundtable, for instance, ranked the United States ninth out of tenth – after Germany, Australia, Singapore and other nations – in the friendliness of its policies toward high-skilled immigration.

    Trump’s continued lurch toward insularity, which includes his plans for a border wall as well as his ban on refugees, will only accelerate the flight of top-tier global talent to friendlier shores – a phenomenon that urban theorist Richard Florida noted as early as 2004 in an especially prescient piece for the Washington Monthly:

  61. 61
    Vhh says:

    I and my family have dual citizenship in the US and Australia by virtue of having worked and lived Down Under for some ten years. Aussies like big, adventurous personalities, and there is a segment of the population that worries overmuch about darker skinned Emmy Grants to their mostly empty country. But when push comes to shove, they believe in a fair go for all, and they despise pompous, condescending Ärshlocher like the ferret topped shitgibbon. They share with other peoples of the Commonwealth a much richer English than the American dialect, and we can expect a torrent of verbal retaliation on the Donald.

  62. 62

    @Thoroughly Pizzled: This is anecdotal, but a test cricketer (i.e playing for the national team) I have met IRL told me that some Aussie batsmen were the most lewd and racist players, among all the countries he has played against. India plays test cricket with S. Africa, Kiwis and the Brits too. This includes making racist comments, noises like monkeys at the fielders etc. So I am sure these policies play well among some demographics. The Aussie fans were not much better.

  63. 63
    rikyrah says:

     Leaked Draft of Trump’s Religious Freedom Order Reveals Sweeping Plans to Legalize Discrimination
    If signed, the order would create wholesale exemptions for people and organizations who claim religious objections to same-sex marriage, premarital sex, abortion, and trans identity.
    By Sarah Posner
    YESTERDAY 7:11 PM

    A leaked copy of a draft executive order titled “Establishing a Government-Wide Initiative to Respect Religious Freedom,” obtained by The Investigative Fund and The Nation, reveals sweeping plans by the Trump administration to legalize discrimination.

    This article was reported in partnership with the Investigative Fund at the Nation Institute.

    The four-page draft order, a copy of which is currently circulating among federal staff and advocacy organizations, construes religious organizations so broadly that it covers “any organization, including closely held for-profit corporations,” and protects “religious freedom” in every walk of life: “when providing social services, education, or healthcare; earning a living, seeking a job, or employing others; receiving government grants or contracts; or otherwise participating in the marketplace, the public square, or interfacing with Federal, State or local governments.”

    The draft order seeks to create wholesale exemptions for people and organizations who claim religious or moral objections to same-sex marriage, premarital sex, abortion, and trans identity, and it seeks to curtail women’s access to contraception and abortion through the Affordable Care Act. The White House did not respond to requests for comment, but when asked Monday about whether a religious freedom executive order was in the works, White House spokesman Sean Spicer told reporters, “I’m not getting ahead of the executive orders that we may or may not issue. There is a lot of executive orders, a lot of things that the president has talked about and will continue to fulfill, but we have nothing on that front now.”

    Language in the draft document specifically protects the tax-exempt status of any organization that “believes, speaks, or acts (or declines to act) in accordance with the belief that marriage is or should be recognized as the union of one man and one woman, sexual relations are properly reserved for such a marriage, male and female and their equivalents refer to an individual’s immutable biological sex as objectively determined by anatomy, physiology, or genetics at or before birth, and that human life begins at conception and merits protection at all stages of life.”

    The breadth of the draft order, which legal experts described as “sweeping” and “staggering,” may exceed the authority of the executive branch if enacted. It also, by extending some of its protections to one particular set of religious beliefs, would risk violating the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution.

    “This executive order would appear to require agencies to provide extensive exemptions from a staggering number of federal laws—without regard to whether such laws substantially burden religious exercise,” said Marty Lederman, a professor at Georgetown University Law Center and an expert on church-state separation and religious freedom.

  64. 64
    PhoenixRising says:

    @Peale:

    the raid probably was planned during the Obama administration and if the military thought that there were risks, they should have said something.

    This is far more troubling. Obama told them no, more than once, because he felt the chances were too high of exactly what happened (whoops, this is an ambush, it’s not a quiet village but instead a training camp packed with high-valence non-combatants).

    Military leaders expected to pitch this raid to an adult with a mature understanding of risk, because that is the habit they are in: in their experience, the President’s job is to stop them from doing things that ‘might work out’ tactically but have strategic or political consequences that will offset any gains in the long view.

    Instead they discovered that there is no longer effective civilian control of their most aggressive ideas. They are going to have to only present him with options they have used their judgment to accept the political and human costs of.

    I’m hopeful only because every officer I’ve known–from my cousin the CWO to my late dad–took his responsibility to the troops under command more seriously than Trump knows how to. His understanding of risk, to be charitable to his cognitive processes, is founded in a setting of bankruptcy or receivership being the worst case scenario. Not ‘we lost $75MM in hardware, a SEAL, an 8yo girl with US citizen relatives and our reputation with AQAP and ISIS for acting on good intel’.

    But it’s grim. This is very, very bad.

  65. 65
    JordanRules says:

    I’m curious who the major WH leakers are. I have no clue, but I come here for some snarky speculation so anybody care to posit a theory?

  66. 66
    Barbara says:

    @amk: Insane they can deal with. Oral Roberts and Pat Robertson are bonkers. Trump is impious and insulting, and gloats about it — all but giving them the middle finger — I bet he loves it. He is not religious, he cares nothing for religion and he probably thinks someone who would intentionally enter a profession to make less money (on average) in order to serve a higher power is the most contemptible kind of loser. So he is going to treat these guys the way he is going to treat McConnell and Ryan, with one public humiliation after another. I have no idea what their breaking point is. I do know that toadying up to someone who clearly rejects what they tell everyone else they believe in will not win them new adherents. They are idiots.

  67. 67
    rikyrah says:

    Progressive activism takes its toll on congressional Republicans
    02/02/17 10:08 AM
    By Steve Benen
    There’s all kinds of compelling evidence that progressive activism, spurred by Donald Trump’s election, is stiffening Democratic spines on Capitol Hill. At the same time, it’s starting to have the opposite effect on their Republican colleagues.

    House Ways and Means Committee Kevin Brady (R-Texas), for example, scheduled an event in his district two weeks ago to discuss the Affordable Care Act, and he seemed eager to limit the audience to his allies. The gathering was held at a local Chamber of Commerce headquarters, it wasn’t announced to the public, and the congressman’s office said the point of the event was to hear from constituents facing “rising costs and loss of coverage and choice” because of “Obamacare.”

    As the Houston Chronicle reported, dozens of “skeptical and at times testy” locals showed up to express their vocal support for the health care reform law.

    There’s a lot of this going around. Rep. Mike Coffman (R-Colo.) recently snuck out the back of a library in order to steer clear of constituents who wanted to tell him not to take away their insurance. Rep. Justin Amash (R-Mich.) faced a similar reaction during a town-hall event in Grand Rapids. TPM had a related report today out of Illinois.

    Rep. Peter Roskam’s (R-IL) office cancelled a meeting with constituents about Obamacare on Wednesday when a staffer for the congressman learned that a reporter was present, according to the Aurora Beacon-News.

    Constituent Sandra Alexander told the Beacon-News that she arranged the meeting about the Affordable Care Act with Roskam’s staff ahead of time and informed them that she would be bringing along a small group.

    But staffers cancelled the meeting before it could begin, ostensibly because there were members of the media present

    .
    In Virginia, meanwhile, Politico reports that Rep. Barbara Comstock (R) “stood up constituents over the weekend who attended two townhalls with questions about an Obamacare repeal and the Trump Administration’s travel ban.”

  68. 68
    Jeffro says:

    @D58826:

    While I’m loath to defend das Fuhrer, I thought I saw that he made a phone call to the Canadian PM to extend his sympathy. He hasn’t tweeted about it but…..

    No, you’re exactly right. He did call, didn’t tweet. I guess he wouldn’t want his minions seeing him give it any sort of priority by tweeting about it (not really joking there)

  69. 69
    randy khan says:

    @rikyrah:

    Not mentioned in the excerpt, but consistent with what’s reported, Apple has announced that it’s considering filing suit to oppose the executive order.

  70. 70
    pattonbt says:

    Hey! Finally a direct Aussie political story on Balloon Juice (though I know there have been a few over the years)! As a dual citizen (US / AUS – moved to Aus in 2003 – Perth) it’s nice to be on both ends of the story.

    While some may be right this may not destroy the US / AUS relationship long term, it will damage it long term. Aussies don’t like tall poppies and Trump is the tallest of tall poppies. The Aussies for the most part know their relative place in the political world hierarchy (not to say some wouldn’t want to be more powerful), but they also love their “battler” persona (punching above their weight). Its much more collective here (while of course their is political division like anywhere else) and Aussies will not like this and they will remember it as long as Trump is there. They already hated Trump with a passion and they do not hesitate to let you know it. My accent is US and almost everywhere I go I get something along the lines “How did you guys elect such a transparently idiotic and evil person to President?” having no care or clue for my political leanings (of course Australia just put Pauline Hanson back in the Senate so it’s not like we don’t have our issues here too).

    All that said, this will just give a wider opening for China in Australia and the region (which I am actually ambivalent on). China must be laughing their asses off right now. Trump will cede the Pacific rim to them all the while thinking he is boxing them in. When the bill comes due to the US for the long term impacts of Trumps short term management, it will be hefty and painful.

  71. 71
    Barbara says:

    @Peale: Yes, that’s my view too. Unless Trump did something specific to override warnings, then I can’t see how he would be responsible for what seems like the kind of thing that is within the known possibilities of any raid, however well planned. In this case, meeting resistance they didn’t expect.

  72. 72
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    Jesus Christ. (And that exclamation is more reverent than Trump is being at the Prayer Breakfast)

    Have other presidents at National Prayer Breakfasts casually tossed off “the hell with it,” and talked of appropriating Senate prerogatives — even in jest?

    During the prayer breakfast, the president also praised Senate Chaplain Barry Black, who spoke earlier during the breakfast.

    “I don’t know, chaplain, whether or not that’s an appointed position,” he said.

    “Is that an appointed position? I don’t even know if you’re Democrat or if you’re Republican, but I’m appointing you for another year,” Trump said. “The hell with it.

    “And I think it’s not even my appointment, it’s the Senate appointment, but we’ll talk to them. Your job is very very secure.”

  73. 73
    cosima says:

    @Vhh: Looking forward to it! Have lived in Scotland for quite some time, and cannot come close to approaching their levels when expressing their disdain in a colourful fashion.

    Was discussing the Oz thoughts about the election just a few threads below — a commenter noted that their Aussie friend was surprised that the vulgarian was elected. I said they may be less cynical about Americans than Brits are (who are disgusted, but not entirely surprised at the stupidity of a large number of Americans). They seem a bit more optimistic down under. Long may it last.

  74. 74
    pattonbt says:

    @Peale: Don’t care. Trump said he was better than this. His watch. His fault. Fuck him. Can we please have our years long Yemenazi hearings please?

  75. 75
    Thoroughly Pizzled says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I don’t doubt it. Australia is where immigrants can get harassed on public transit. It’s where my friend could be completely shunned by restaurant waitstaff. It’s everything I fear us becoming.

  76. 76
    A Ghost to Most says:

    @danielx:

    This is my place and these are my people.

    Grumpy Fuckers Coffee Club could be the name of this blog.

  77. 77
    Thoroughly Pizzled says:

    @JordanRules: I was wondering the same. It could be Obama holdovers. Or it could be that the people willing to work for Trump are the same people who’d betray their boss and colleagues.

  78. 78

    @SiubhanDuinne: Why is there a prayer breakfast in the Senate, again? What about the first amendment?

  79. 79

    @A Ghost to Most: I thought JGC was the proprietor!

  80. 80
    Another Scott says:

    @rikyrah: Drum has some stuff on the “repair Obamacare” rumblings. Who knows if it means anything, but it does illustrate the tar pits they’ve lowered themselves into…

    What matters is the language in the bills, of course.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  81. 81
    Shalimar says:

    @rikyrah:

    U.S. military officials told Reuters that Trump approved his first covert counterterrorism operation without sufficient intelligence, ground support or adequate backup preparations.

    The White House isn’t responsible for making sure there is sufficient intelligence, ground support and adequate backup preparations. We knew Trump was incompetent when we hired him. Military officials have to be responsible enough to only give Trump final choices that he can’t fuck up.

  82. 82
    David 🍁Canadian Anchor Baby🍁 Koch says:

    @rachel:

    (He hated Hillary; not sure why.

    there is a lot of sexism towards women. especially those considered tough.

    in some ways obama had it easier because we live in such segregated communities that for many whites the only blacks they know are movie stars and their favorite athletes. this allowed them to project their narrow but positive view of Denzel Washington and Michael Jordan onto obama, whearas in clinton’s case too many projected their negative experience with their tough 4th grade onto her.

  83. 83
    A Ghost to Most says:

    @Vhh:

    Aussies like big, adventurous personalities, and there is a segment of the population that worries overmuch about darker skinned Emmy Grants to their mostly empty country. But when push comes to shove, they believe in a fair go for all

    That appears a bit of whitewashing to me. I spent some time working in Oz 20 years ago, and I came away pretty shocked and saddened by the casual racism towards aboriginals.

  84. 84
    amk says:

    @Barbara: Hogwash. He is the CIC and hence has to take the blame. Given his life-long childish temper tantrums, I bet he pushed the military to do this. The buck stops with him.

  85. 85

    @SiubhanDuinne: wowww.

    So. On the one hand, I feel nothing but contempt for the religious folks who went against the basic stated precepts of their holy books and supported this trash monster, but I also know that not everybody at the prayer breakfast is one of them. I hope the right-thinking among them are feeling and expressing the appropriate fury at their brothers and sisters for supporting him over an actually religious woman who in words and deeds actually acted in the interests of her faith.

    On the other hand, what’s the liberal version of “baaaahahahhaa suck it, libtards!”

  86. 86
    amk says:

    .@SenFeinstein tells me she's gotten 55,000 calls to her office urging her to vote against Jeff Sessions for AG. Fifty-five thousand.— Sahil Kapur (@sahilkapur) February 1, 2017

  87. 87
    Shalimar says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: At least he didn’t tell the joke about the priest running a call girl service out of the church offices. Though most likely that is only because he didn’t think of it during his ramblings.

  88. 88
    Thoroughly Pizzled says:

    Imagine if a refugee boat got to the shores of Guam, barely seaworthy and full of hungry, desperate people fleeing war and persecution. Imagine if the U.S. Navy sent boats out to meet the refugees. Imagine if the U.S. Navy then towed the refugee boat out to sea, to make sure it sank in international waters instead of American territory.

    That is what Australia is already doing.

  89. 89
    Barbara says:

    @amk: He is always responsible. Full stop. That doesn’t mean other people below him did not fail at their own jobs — no president should be an all purpose excuse for the incompetence of every federal employee. To the extent that they are tweeting this, my assumption is that they are trying mostly to cover up their own role, not something that should be condoned.

  90. 90
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    It’s not held in the Senate. It usually takes place at a big hotel. Began during the Eisenhower administration. It still offends me, as flying in the face of “separation of church and state,” but it is not an official US Government event.

  91. 91

    @amk: and that’s just the calls that got through!

  92. 92
    gwangung says:

    @Shalimar:

    The White House isn’t responsible for making sure there is sufficient intelligence, ground support and adequate backup preparations. We knew Trump was incompetent when we hired him. Military officials have to be responsible enough to only give Trump final choices that he can’t fuck up.

    Actually, I suspect this aspect of insufficient intelligence was ALREADY in the plans, and it was aimed at the Obama administration—I’m privately convinced the Trumpies just picked up all the old military options and pushed on it, warnings be damned.

  93. 93
    Another Scott says:

    @Shalimar:

    The White House isn’t responsible for making sure there is sufficient intelligence, ground support and adequate backup preparations.

    I suspect that’s not accurate.

    Recall that Carter’s rescue mission in Iran failed because (IIRC) they ran out of working helicopters. Supposedly Obama remembered that and insisted that an additional ‘copter was in the set for the bin Laden raid. And it turned out they needed it.

    The commanders on the ground only have so much hardware and people. If they are ordered to do something, they must make do with what they have – unless someone like the President makes sure they have what they actually need by ordering stuff be made available from elsewhere.

    It sound[s] like Trump said “Do it now!” without anyone in his team knowing what was actually needed and making sure every contingency was planned for….

    My $0.02. I’m no expert and have no special knowledge in this case.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  94. 94

    @SiubhanDuinne: Didn’t he also put Under God in the Pledge of Allegiance? So this trend of Republican Presidents being bad is not a new thing. Of course the standard keeps falling all the time.

  95. 95
    amk says:

    @Barbara: This was a dangerous mission he personally sought, tried to act recklessly wilfully discarding the previous president’s warnings and failed miserably. Trying to blame the underlings alone for this is pathetic.

  96. 96
    Oatler. says:

    @Peale: Agreed! They can shove their dollarydoos right up their chazzwozzles!

  97. 97
    Shalimar says:

    @rikyrah: I heard from a friend in Alabama and haven’t confirmed, Sen. Richard Shelby is only meeting behind closed doors with business leaders during his trip home. No public events scheduled, and protesters at one of his local offices were barred by the landlord for trespassing. Police officers were called to keep them away.

  98. 98
    A Ghost to Most says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    Which proves my point!

  99. 99
    amk says:

    @Another Scott: And Obama took two years to hone his plan unlike this clusterfuck moron.

  100. 100
    PaulW says:

    We’re at war with Australia and Gainesville’s Burrito Brothers is closing forever.

    I blame Trump, and goddammit I’m not even joking about that.

  101. 101
    amk says:

    Confirms what many were whispering: the mission itself was ill advised. Trump was unready, and seemed to say yes only b/c Obama had said no. https://t.co/GG62TCA1AX— Juliette Kayyem (@juliettekayyem) February 2, 2017

  102. 102
    Shalimar says:

    @Another Scott: I suspect you’re right that Trump/Bannon wanted something high profile done right now, and this is the mission the military felt was closest to being ready. Mattis and Dunford were reportedly in on the approval meeting, so there is plenty of blame to go around. I guess what I’m saying is that blame-shifting is fine and happens in any bureaucracy, but Trump/Bannon are never going to learn from this so I hope our special ops planners do and adjust future planning accordingly.

  103. 103
  104. 104
    Attapooch says:

    The timing of the call is important because of what was going on at the time – the sun was going down and he no longer could manage his volatility.

    I’m not a doctor but I’ve had enough family members succumb to alzheimer’s and dementia to know it when I see it:

    His nighttime rages.
    His unwillingness to sleep in unfamiliar places.
    His need to be surrounded only by people he knows.
    His near non-existent level of frustration tolerance.

    Even if he hasn’t been diagnosed, his family knows that there’s something wrong which is why he’s never out in public without one of them babysitting him.

  105. 105
    trollhattan says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    Not to worry, Lawerence Berkeley Labs is on campus right across the Bay.

  106. 106
    Aleta says:

    He’s so competitive that if Obama hosted a TV channel, the possibilities for manipulating him would be endless.

  107. 107
    Eural Joiner says:

    So trying to “politely” discuss the Yemen fiasco witih a conservative friend on the book of Faces and his response? Yeah, these things happen, war is fluid and casualties – military and civilian – are the cost of our fight. Which I then asked what the hell was his outrage over Benghazi about?

  108. 108
    Larkspur says:

    @O. Felix Culpa: I picture him sitting down with a nice redback. Oh not really. I’m just spewin’ at the standover bloke.

  109. 109
    Barbara says:

    @amk: I am just withholding judgment pending further information. Like I said at the outset, if Trump (or his advisers) pushed for a risky mission then the criticism is just. If he okayed it solely because Obama nixed it — then, yeah, he deserves all the blame he gets.

  110. 110

    @trollhattan: I know where it is, I’m wondering if I’m in vaporizing distance or the larger painful death radius.

  111. 111
    Aleta says:

    @Attapooch: Yes, and in my experience stress makes it much worse, also having many people around, rapid transitions between rooms, being told what to do ….

  112. 112
    Larkspur says:

    @japa21: I could stand it if, when they say “I’m a Republican”, they’d burst into tears.

  113. 113
    vhh says:

    @rikyrah: Should be interesting when Mormon FundamentalistJewish, Muslim, Hindu and other religious groups start insisting on following their religious customs that conflict with US civil laws and customs. Divorce only by husbands, polygamy, honor killings, burning of widows, and routine female genital mutilation are a few of the possibilities.

  114. 114
    Another Scott says:

    @Attapooch: Yup. “Sundowning” is a real thing.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  115. 115
    hovercraft says:

    @Shalimar:

    The White House isn’t responsible for making sure there is sufficient intelligence, ground support and adequate backup preparations. We knew Trump was incompetent when we hired him. Military officials have to be responsible enough to only give Trump final choices that he can’t fuck up.

    This was the bullshit excuse given by Bush and his allies for how badly they fucked up Iraq and Afghanistan. The president is the commander in chief, it is his job to ask the right questions, his national security team is supposed to be made up of people with experience who can ask those questions for him if they see he is out of his depth. This moron was so eager to plaster his name on a military mission that would show his strength that he did not dig down. Yes the mission was planned during the Obama administration, but he did NOT approve it, he stopped it and left the decision to the next president. Obama was beaten up for eight years for being too cautions, I’m pretty sure that he and his team knowing their boss, would have questioned every aspect of the mission. This bozo probably wanted to make a bold statement and show that he too could have a successful raid, even better than Obama’s just a week into his presidency. The military is often more eager to engage, it’s the presidents job to reign them in when appropriate. I’m not calling them warmongers, but they are the military, it’s their job to come up with military options, the civilians job is to weigh the pros and cons. Obviously way beyond the capabilities of the Shitgibbon.

  116. 116

    @vhh: Seriously, when was a Hindu widow last burned? At least update your bile from the Victorian era.
    P.S. Yeah I know about Roop Kanwar and it was widely condemned in India. One example in 70 years is not a “custom”.

  117. 117
    Brachiator says:

    @cosima:

    Was discussing the Oz thoughts about the election just a few threads below — a commenter noted that their Aussie friend was surprised that the vulgarian was elected. I said they may be less cynical about Americans than Brits are (who are disgusted, but not entirely surprised at the stupidity of a large number of Americans).

    I don’t see that either Brits or Aussies have anything to brag about. I tend to view Australia as the land of vulgarians, albeit often friendly vulgarians. But Australia also gave the world Rupert Murdoch. And as another poster has noted, Australia’s treatment of refugees is despicable.

    The Brits voted for BREXIT and most voters didn’t even know what they were voting for. They have won the international prize for stupidity, and this is even before you get to Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, both Milibands, the Lib Dems, the Labour Party, and Trump’s new poodle, Theresa May. Oh, yes, and the founder of the feast of stupid, Nigel Farage.

  118. 118
    liberal says:

    @pattonbt:

    Don’t care. Trump said he was better than this. His watch. His fault. Fuck him.

    Yep.

    There are lots of recessions that, in a deep analysis, aren’t necessarily really the fault of the then-current president, but the other side sure ain’t gonna let that stop them from using it.

    Fuck the Republicans and their Nazi friends.

  119. 119
    Millard Filmore says:

    @vhh:

    honor killings

    That is cultural, not religious, as both Christians and Moslems do it. I think the practice starts in the Balkans and goes south and east. (some TV show told me so about 25 years ago).

  120. 120
    Larkspur says:

    @A Ghost to Most: A similar thing happened to me. I grew up in Michigan, and I recall having a beautiful little doll fashioned after (or possibly by) the Penobscot tribe. I loved it. And my father used to claim we had Native American blood. (A lot of families do that, especially in areas where Native Americans are not next-door neighbors any more. In fact, when I did that 23&Me test, I found that I was 98% northern European white white white….along with a drop of Asian or Native American blood. By then my father was dead, so I couldn’t tell him that I was sorry I thought he lied.)

    Anyway, while the people I knew as a youngster romanticized Indians, I sure got schooled by witnessing anti-Native American sentiments when I traveled to Utah and Arizona and lived there for a while. I was truly startled to see how many white folks there despised Navajos.

  121. 121
    liberal says:

    @Brachiator: Agreed.

    This idea that there’s some wonderful place to emigrate to, where we can be safe and clean, isn’t very realistic. Though given that I’m now worried about my kids dying in a nuclear flash, it’s understandable.

  122. 122
    Timurid says:

    @Another Scott:

    This makes Obama’s ‘Normalizer in Chief’ routine even more confusing. His private meetings with Trump must have been beyond chilling.
    My theory is that he thought that the Russia investigation would produce something actionable before 1/20, and he didn’t want to spook the target…

  123. 123
    Larkspur says:

    @Barbara: I remember reading that General Eisenhower, on the eve of D-Day, had already written out a statement taking full responsibility, in the event that everything went horribly wrong. I’m sure Obama had a similar statement ready if the bin Laden raid went kablooey too. Not DJT, never DJT.

  124. 124
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    It occurs to me Mr Master Negotiator President got played by the Aus Prime Minister – in one phone call Austria’s horrible refugee abuse turned into the United States’ horrible refugee abuse problem and Turnbull went from spineless jellyfish to Man of Principle™ (Down Under version)

    Heck of a job Donny.

  125. 125
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Those words were added in 1954, by Congress — although Ike was very supportive. Remember, this was all during the McCarthy “Red witch-hunt” era and HUAC hearings and blacklists.

    And I was wrong, or at least seriously misleading, when I said #89 that the Prayer Breakfast is not an official government event. According to Wikipedia:

    The National Prayer Breakfast is hosted by members of the United States Congress and is organized on their behalf by The Fellowship Foundation, a Christian organization.

    I guess technically one could argue that “hosting” it is MoCs in their private capacities. But even back when I was both more politically conservative and more religious than I am now, the whole thing always smelled to me.

  126. 126
    joel hanes says:

    @A Ghost to Most:

    pretty shocked and saddened by the casual racism towards aboriginals.

    Spending time around a first nations reservation in the US can be pretty discouraging too.
    And visiting Sioux Lookout Ontario in 1970 was … not quite nineteenth-century, but
    Certainly not what my social studies texts had taught me to expect.

  127. 127
    Brachiator says:

    @Shalimar:

    The White House isn’t responsible for making sure there is sufficient intelligence, ground support and adequate backup preparations. We knew Trump was incompetent when we hired him. Military officials have to be responsible enough to only give Trump final choices that he can’t fuck up.

    Uh, no. I don’t think we know what, if anything, went wrong. It’s up to the military to present Trump with doable missions. But Trump can still fuck things up if he has a hard on for action and signals the military that he wants something done, and will find someone who will give him what he wants.

  128. 128
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @JordanRules:Spires, and he thinks he’s talking to Bannon and not a reporter.

  129. 129
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Attapooch:

    The timing of the call is important because of what was going on at the time – the sun was going down and he no longer could manage his volatility.

    I wasn’t aware that nightfall signals an especially challenging time for Alzheimer’s sufferers and their minders. Is this more or less universally true?

    ETA: I’m not doubting you for a minute; just surprised, as I’d never heard this.

  130. 130
    eclare says:

    @JordanRules: A friend of mine and I have guessed The Warrior Monk or people who report directly to him. No way he would risk troops like that.

  131. 131
    Barbara says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Yes, that is my understanding. It’s similar to the situation where a baby prone to colic can be a lamb for the whole day but the energy it takes to interact with the world eventually becomes depleted until you get to the witching hour, and things just fall apart. Obviously, babies get better, but in older adults, as your cognitive abilities decline, it takes more and more energy to keep concentration and focus at high levels. Eventually, you run out of gas. In some disorders, there also appears to be organic damage in areas for responsible for sleep regulation, which obviously does not help the situation, and probably leads to a kind of chronic fatigue for some people.

    ETA: Some kinds of cognitive decline, whether through age or injury, clearly lead to a marked decline in one’s “editing” function. My mother in law began to call people fat right to their face as her health deteriorated, something she would have been ashamed to do before that. The inability to temper one’s reaction to the context of the surrounding circumstances is a sign of cognitive decline. But in Trump’s case, it’s not clear there has been any change. That’s what would be a sign of decline and not just being a jerk.

  132. 132
    japa21 says:

    The Yemen raid, or the aftereffects thereof, will be used by Trump as further justification for the ban. Top Yemeni government officials are being quite verbal in their denunciation of the raid. Trump will use that rhetoric to show how dangerous any Yemeni coming into the country would be.

  133. 133
    Brachiator says:

    The Windmills of Trump’s Mind turn oddly, but he is on a roll in his determination to restore rigid conservatism to America. And also blast his personal antagonists.

    Mr. Trump said his administration would “totally destroy” the Johnson Amendment, which prohibits churches from engaging in political activity at the risk of losing their tax-exempt status.

    Speaking to a gathering of religious leaders, the president also defended his immigration policy, brushed aside concern about his harsh phone calls with foreign leaders, and ridiculed Arnold Schwarzenegger for his poor ratings in replacing Mr. Trump as host of “Celebrity Apprentice.”

    He added that “freedom of religion is a sacred right, but it is under serious threat.”

    During his presidential campaign, Mr. Trump promised to push for repeal of the law, which was passed in 1954 and named for then-Senator Lyndon B. Johnson of Texas, who proposed the change to the tax code.

    Trump is also creating a new populist base. No one can plausibly claim that Trump is religious or has given two shits about religious fundamentalists in the past. But he has zeroed in on the bigotry that hides under “freedom of religion” for religious hard liners, and he appears to be determined to give them even more than they ever wanted.

    Note also that if Trump seriously pushes this proposal to allow religious organizations to go political, you will see more Koch Brother funded front groups pretending to be religious tax exempt organizations. Hundreds of millions of dollars will be silently funneled into political campaigns. Tax free dollars.

  134. 134
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @schrodingers_cat: What he said, and more importantly how is the America if a Godly Nation crowd going to like it when the Wickans and the Satanists show up to the godbothering party?

  135. 135
    Origuy says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: LLL hasn’t been run by UC since 2007. It’s managed by a private company under the direct control of the DOE. Lawrence Berkeley Lab is still managed by UC.

  136. 136
    gvg says:

    @hovercraft: Since Obama famously roasted Trump while the Osama Bin Laden raid was taking place, I wouldn’t be surprised if Donald has been anticipating sending his own “bigger, better” raid for years. That may be what caused this, way before he can have gotten up to speed on the numerous issues. Of course he has no awareness that he needs to learn anything (all presidents do, but this guy is not even trying). Naturally it’s a disaster, that is his nature in this context. I just hope it doesn’t make him rush into another to prove us wrong. what a moron.

  137. 137

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: I got the gist, the Sati swipe seemed a bit gratuitous, that’s all.

  138. 138
    Attapooch says:

    @SiubhanDuinne

    Sundowners isn’t universal but it is common and its intensity varies from person to person.

    For example, my grandmother would become quiet and withdrawn at night versus being really outgoing and personable during the day but my mother-in-law (who spent her entire life obsessed by keeping up appearances) became a being of pure, uncontrollable rage once the sun went down.

  139. 139
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @Attapooch:

    His near non-existent level of frustration tolerance.

    You know, that struck me is how unhappy he was his Inauguration I would think normally it would be the other way around – they would be fighting to tone down the overjoyed to look dignified, not looking like they just walked out of some back room screaming match.

  140. 140
    SgrAstar says:

    @Barbara: Trump overrode the warnings about the Yemen raid because Obama- his nemesis- wouldn’t authorize it. Pure speculation on my part but very plausible.

  141. 141
    Aleta says:

    They were getting such bad press, so they shamelessly used the military. They thought they would overpower the immigration mess with a glorious talking point about protecting us from terror; and then bring it up on TV whenever they are asked about the refugees. Giulianni can do this in his sleep, from inside the coffin.

    Interesting how, two days ago, someone told Fox that a Yemen-like bombing of a Saudi ship was meant for a US ship. This to be followed by announcing the killing of an Al K leader in Yemen. (And Trump would now be like Obama! Who in a single day ordered the B. Lad. operation, put on a tux and made the whole room laugh at T. )

    This story matters because they will be using the military and press to serve themselves. Then dress up to visit the bereaved.

  142. 142
    hovercraft says:

    @Timurid:

    This makes Obama’s ‘Normalizer in Chief’ routine even more confusing. His private meetings with Trump must have been beyond chilling.

    Obama did all he could before the election to stop this shit from happening. Once the election was over, he had no choice, he had to “respect” the will of the people dumb enough to do this. After about a minute spent in shock, the media and the GOP were all on board, saying the people had spoken, because the white people had spoken. Can you imagine the media and the right accepting that the black soshulist they had been saying for years was a tyrant, going on TV to tell us that the results would not count, and that we were going to have a do-over? Obama and Hillary accepted what they knew was a terrible result, caused by a number of things, many of them external, because like Gore before them, they thought it was necessary for the good of the country. I disagree with them, Bush was terrible for our country, and it was the reality of how terrible, and republicans denial of this that led them to try to make Obama as big a failure as Bush, that finally pushed them over the edge into complete insanity. The media bought the con that the GOP is the party of grown-ups, and they refuse to be disabused of the notion, no matter how much evidence to the contrary they get. Democrats are the grown-ups, who get summoned in the aftermath to clean up the mess.

  143. 143
    Yarrow says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: It’s enough of an issue that it has a name–sundowning. And it can present in a variety of ways. Talk to anyone who works in a memory care facility and they’ll confirm what others here are saying. Many dementia/Alzheimer’s patients get much more disoriented at night, which can be a real problem for falling out of bed, that kind of thing.

  144. 144
    Yarrow says:

    @Barbara:

    But in Trump’s case, it’s not clear there has been any change. That’s what would be a sign of decline and not just being a jerk.

    If you look at video of Trump speaking from 10 or 20 years ago it’s clear there has been a change. His facility with language and his speech patterns are different, and not in a good way. Could be normal aging. Could be something else.

  145. 145
    Aleta says:

    @Barbara: Such a good explanation. Thanks for that. Including this

    the energy it takes to interact with the world eventually becomes depleted until you get to the witching hour, and things just fall apart. … as your cognitive abilities decline, it takes more and more energy to keep concentration and focus at high levels. Eventually, you run out of gas.

    I wish I’d known enough to explain it this way to my sisters when they would get angry at my mother.

  146. 146
    Yarrow says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Do you think there are some very conservative Hindus who would like to go back to that practice? Seems like religions the world over have their very conservative sects and most of those like to punish women in a variety of horrifying and cruel ways.

  147. 147
    Attapooch says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    The Inauguration was a good example of how he acts whenever he’s forced to have to function without his minders – he doesn’t ever seem to know what he’s supposed to do next or what’s expected of him.

    His kids are always near him for a reason.

  148. 148
    bendal says:

    @Peale: According to the articles I read on this raid Obama declined to authorize it because in his opinion the risks outweighed the potential gains. IOW the military told him it would be risky and it needed to be scheduled when a new moon was taking place, which would be during Trumpf’s tenure as President, so Obama delayed the mission until Trumpf could decide on his own whether to authorize it or not.

  149. 149
    Emma says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: My mother developed it two months before her death due to a screwup with her Alzheimer’s meds in the first hospital she was in. Sundowning is the official name. It can be terrifying. My mother would try to throw herself out of bed and scream to be let out at the top of her voice. During the day she was passive and even friendly but when the sun went down… let’s just say that even her favorite nephew, a medical school student, insisted she could no longer be cared for in the house.

  150. 150
    TenguPhule says:

    I will make this prediction now.

    Demon Trump will allow an attack or other disruption on the Super Bowl. Because he can’t stand its more popular then he is right now.

  151. 151
    Debbie1 says:

    @Peale: Dear Mr. I’m not going to defend Trump here but,
    Based on some reports, the raid has been considered for some time but was not executed because Pres.Obama found the intelligence to be unreliable. It took an arrogant newcomer to give the OK after barely a week in office. If it been successful, guess who would have been all over TV taking bows? As it is, all he can do is distract us w/ Ivanka in her Funeral Barbie outfit. If you’re going to pursue that old saying of the buck stops w/ the other guy, you’ll have to try harder. But thanks for playing our game, though.

  152. 152
    Peale says:

    @TenguPhule: No. My guess is that he’ll tweet about Tom Brady and dis Colin Kaepernick. Because they’ll never let that go.

  153. 153
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    Thanks to all those who weighed in on the “sundowning” Alzheimer’s/dementia issue. I love days when I can genuinely learn something new, even though this is a sad (and in the case of our Republican President* a very worrying) thing to find out about.

  154. 154
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator: It would destroy the Federal Income Tax System.

    Not joking. Literally anyone and everyone could become an exemption. And unless he plans on borrowing to pay for the military, the troops won’t get paid either.

    Draw your own conclusions from there.

  155. 155
    Aleta says:

    @bendal: I also read that it was judged ‘insufficient intelligence’ to proceed under O. And sure enough, (the press says) insufficient intelligence was one factor in why this went wrong. As a result (press says) they met more resistance than they’d estimated, there were more civilians present, and instead of surprising the camp, they were surprised. Another factor was insufficient ground support. This was a risk that someone overruled.

  156. 156
    Brachiator says:

    @Debbie1:

    As it is, all he can do is distract us w/ Ivanka in her Funeral Barbie outfit

    Very apt description!

  157. 157
    Yarrow says:

    @Emma: Also, FYI for anyone dealing with older family members, surgery involving anesthesia can lead to postoperative cognitive dysfunction. It can present similarly to delirium but it’s not the same. Sometimes it lasts only a short while–hours or days–and sometimes it lingers for weeks or months. In some cases it can be a point of marked decline in mental faculties for the older person. If the patient already has cognitive issues, it’s more likely to be a problem, but it can be an issue for anyone over 50. Worse the older you get.

    My mother’s doctor didn’t mention this issue to us when discussing her surgery and I only found out about it while it was happening. It can be really frightening for the family. It’s an issue to consider when dealing with any optional surgery with older patients and especially those with memory issues.

  158. 158
    Aleta says:

    @GrandJury: That hit the spot, thanks.

  159. 159
    NotMax says:

    sneak a funnel web spider into the reception

    And that when the fun’ll begin. Bigly.

  160. 160
    newdealfarmgrrrlll says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: my mom has dementia, so my extended family is getting an education on the many facets. Mom doesn’t do this, but we’ve seen other residents of the memory care unit display this behavior.

  161. 161
    coin operated says:

    @Debbie1:

    If it been successful, guess who would have been all over TV taking bows?

    I said the exact same thing on facespace this morning, and the silence from my winger buddies is deafening on that point.

  162. 162
    TenguPhule says:

    @Shalimar: There is no contingency planning that can prevent Trumpnado from screwing it up. Murphy was Trump’s distant ancestor.

  163. 163
    1,000 Flouncing Lurkers (was fidelioscabinet) says:

    @JordanRules: If I were R__NC_ P___B_S I’d have moved in with pre-established leak arrangements, as a fail-safe, in view of the pack of slavering wolverines I’d be dealing with. He’s in what ordinarily would be an excellent position to access information, and has an already established network behind him, courtesy of his work with the RNC. He is also a part of the group that has the most to lose politically from the collapse of the Trump presidency into a flaming crater that can be seen from outer space.

    So it’s probably not him, even though it seems reasonable,

  164. 164
    Barbara says:

    @Aleta: A similar phenomenon is at work for people with ADD. They need to expend a lot more energy to achieve a level of focus necessary for cognitive tasks. If you have a serious deficit and/or if you have a high level of distractions, you might never be able to focus. ADD drugs try to bring you to a level where you don’t have to work so hard to balance “tuning out” the extraneous with “tuning into” the task. This simple explanation gave me so much more insight into my ADD child.

  165. 165
    coin operated says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Surprisingly, they didn’t teach this very much in nursing school 20 years ago. I got to find out the fun way…swing shift on a general medicine ward at a military hospital. We get more than our share of aging/elderly retired military/dependents there. It was terrifying to witness at first because I didn’t know what the hell was going on…thankful I had a great charge nurse to work with those first few months out of school.

  166. 166
    Debbie1 says:

    @hovercraft: Perfect phrasing about wanting to “plaster his name on a military mission.” That’s just what occurred to me. He wanted his own Somali pirates & jr. bin Laden mission, w/ movies to follow, of course. I can see it now, his wife Jocasta would be placed by daughter Ivanka & Eric Trump would be executive producer.

  167. 167
    cosima says:

    @Brachiator: They are quite cynical about their own politicians & fellow Brits as well. It’s not mutually exclusive.

    The Brexit vote was quite similar to our recent presidential vote — low turnout, a lot of voters who thought ‘that will never pass’ so didn’t bother to vote, an energised (hateful alt-right) base. I think it was a wake-up call for many in the value of voting. I’ve been banging that drum in my circle since our return to Scotland, and I think they just didn’t get the importance of it until recently. But the default political stance here is definitely apathy. There are so many parties/leaders, so many tiers, it’s actually quite difficult to feel that your vote ‘counts.’

    I, personally, get it, having come from the US, but political apathy is endemic and difficult to overcome here. I guess that I’m fortunate in that I don’t have any rabid alt-right people that I interact with, but there are a lot of factors that influence that (geography, work, social circle, etc). No matter what people believe about immigration, though, they at least understand the value of the social contract. Even the most hateful alt-right person most likely understand that health care & education (for their own people, naturally) are important. To never have to debate the value of those two key items is a wonderful thing. Continually fighting that battle (in the US) eats away at the soul. It seems so basic, so humane, how can anyone not be on board with that.

    Britain has a long history of doing the wrong thing & producing awful people — as happens when a country has been around for hundreds & hundreds of years — but also good people. What the US has devolved to in a fraction of the time is a bit alarming to people all over the world — not just Brits. I talk a lot with friends about the geographical & melting-pot challenges that had enabled a lot of the discord, but the average Brit, if you asked them on the street, is probably not going to have a lot of nice things to say about Americans. We are the same country as we were before Nov 9th, but if you’d asked on the 7th you’d have got a much different answer. All of the goodwill that we built up over the course of the Obama years disappeared almost instantaneously with the election results. I can push back on it with people that I speak with, but it is what it is. On the positive side, they’re pulling for us — they’re emboldened & encouraged by the resistance.

  168. 168
    Just One More Canuck says:

    @JordanRules: Melania

  169. 169
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Debbie1:

    Ivanka in her Funeral Barbie outfit

    😘

  170. 170
    Brachiator says:

    @TenguPhule:

    It would destroy the Federal Income Tax System.

    The tax system would definitely take a hit, but the conservative and Republican fantasy is to eliminate all taxes and then fund the military only.

  171. 171
    J R in WV says:

    @trollhattan:

    There are two famous Berkeley labs, both with Lawrence in their names. Lawrence Berkeley National Lab is a more generic scientific lab studying nanomaterials, genomic biology, high energy lasers, etc. It is in Berkeley CA not far from the campus of UC Berkeley.

    Lawrence Livermore National Lab is primarily studying nuclear weapons – making them safer and more effective through scientific research. It’s some distance from UC Berkeley – “about half an hour southeast” according to Wikipedia. That’s pretty close as special weapons go, actually.

    A childhood friend I haven’t seen but once since 1968 works at one of these labs, not sure which one, they do NOT discuss their work, at all, ever. So no way to be sure. I’m sure classified work goes on at both labs.

    So one is right there, and one is not far away at all. Best of luck, guys! Living in the woods has its advantages, although being in the east, we’re downwind of all the labs and USAF bases. So no difference long term.

  172. 172
    Yarrow says:

    @cosima: As seems to be the case the world over, the age group with the lowest percentage turnout for the Brexit vote was the young folks. The ones with the most to lose.

    As for the NHS, have you seen all the talk about May selling off parts of the NHS to Trump and US health insurance companies?

  173. 173
    J R in WV says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    The point here isn’t that Sati is a common place thing anywhere, but that being an ancient tradition of a religion, this religion-makes-everything-good bill would stand a good chance of making all kinds of religious practices from all over the world legal here in the US.

    He listed quite a few, not all from India at all.
    No need to be defensive, no one here is attacking Indian culture.

  174. 174
    Peale says:

    @Brachiator: Yeah. Kind of like how the Orthodox Church was funneled money by Putin to become his staunchest supporter. There was always going to be a revival of Orthodox Christianity of some sort after communism. It didn’t have to take the form it did.

  175. 175
    chopper says:

    i love herr drumpf’s pic. he looks like he fell asleep on the tanning bed again.

  176. 176
    Mnemosyne says:

    @J R in WV:

    My brother’s goddaughter just got a job at Lawrence Livermore — IIRC she’s a chemical engineer with a master’s degree from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo.

  177. 177
    Aleta says:

    @JordanRules:

    speculation

    Depends on the leak, but Kushner’s media aides would have motivation to undermine Bannon.

  178. 178
    Brachiator says:

    @J R in WV:

    this religion-makes-everything-good bill would stand a good chance of making all kinds of religious practices from all over the world legal here in the US.

    Nope. There would be all kinds of language permitting Christian religious practice, but banning everything else. This is the US of A we’re talking about.

  179. 179
    cosima says:

    @Yarrow: I’ve heard people talking about a two-tiered health system, but the selling off parts to the US/insurance companies isn’t getting a lot of play, at least not that I’ve seen.

    The anti-vulgarian feeling here in the UK is enormous. May is not popular (my own opinion is that she was never popular, hence an easy scapegoat to get the Brexit thing done, then moved on by her own party), and her chumminess with the vulgarian is not playing well here — the headlines on the papers after her visit were brutal (I don’t get to the shops much, so don’t see covers often). I suspect people would be willing to pay more in taxes (and yes, they are already sky high for many, and we pay in the UK and the US, which is a huge blow) to prevent something like that happening. Maybe that’s the source of that trial balloon being floated — kicking people into gear re: raising taxes a percentage or two vs. wholescale mayhem through privatising. There is a keen understanding here of the fact that everything that the vulgarian touches turns to shit. If his name is attached it will be hugely unpopular, with the masses and the politicians, right out of the gate.

  180. 180
    Brachiator says:

    @cosima:

    but the average Brit, if you asked them on the street, is probably not going to have a lot of nice things to say about Americans.

    I suppose, but the Brits allowed the anti-immigrant far right to get a hold in Britain before Trump rose up over here, and if apathy was a part of it, it is still no less stupid and vile than over here. Boris Johnson and Theresa May (despite her plummy tones) are no less odious than Trump. Ignorance is pushing the UK out of the EU, and who knows what may happen with Scotland.

    I’m not seeing that it matters a damn what the average Brit thinks about America (and vice versa). We all are in a similar boat in dealing with stupidity and bigotry and anti-immigrant sentiment. Also, I find this British sentiment puzzling: “Oh, well, we stupidly voted ourselves out of the EU, despite low voter turnout and stupidity, but we will just have to jolly well soldier on, dump Cameron and replace him with Theresa May and just get on with it. Can’t change horses in mid stream, you know, or back up, turn around and fix this jam.”

  181. 181
    Humboldtblue says:

    Christ, even Daniel Larison calls Trump out for this nonsense. That’s how fucking bad Trump is, dipshits like Larison are aghast.

  182. 182
    cosima says:

    @Brachiator: I’ve never said that it mattered. The origin of the comment was an exchange between myself & someone else as to whether the difference in attitude toward the election — as expressed by Aussie & Brit coworkers — was down to native optimism (Aussie), cynicism (Brit), or something else entirely.

    The UK was the alt-right’s testing ground for Putin-led propaganda, and it met with success — however, the UK is a very long way from having 1/3 of its citizens supporting alt-right views, at least in my neck of the woods. Even the people I know who voted for Brexit were basing it on economics, not immigration. However, as I said, I am fortunate to mix with sane, sensible & kind (and mostly all highly-educated) people. Cameron was stupid and said ‘fine, you (loud UK-equivalent-of-teabaggers) feel so strongly about it, let’s have a vote’ and so here we are. Just as I wish that Obama had done a lot more pushing back against alt-right normalisation, I wish that Cameron had done the heavy lifting of pushing back and investigating the origin (i.e. funding of!) a lot of the shite that seeped into UK politics.

    Subsequently Farage is now on the US side of the pond. If, following the vulgarian’s ouster (please let it be so!), he ends up considered a legitimate political voice (news/talk shows/etc) in the UK we’ll know that the world has well & truly gone to hell in a handbasket and that the UK’s political system is nearing implosion.

  183. 183
    Yarrow says:

    @cosima: I think he’s particularly unpopular in Scotland where you are. Spoke with two people in England this weekend–one nearer London and one up north and both of them seemed much less concerned about Trump. One was (and still is) rabidly “Remain” and is very angry about the vote. The other got caught up in the anti-immigrant stuff and voted Leave. Simply will not discuss Trump now. But both thought the “Trump is a fascist” strong statements from the US side of the conversation were a bit overblown.

    It’s only two data points but on I was disappointed in their opinions. I hope the fight from others in the UK is stronger.

  184. 184

    @Yarrow: No they wouldn’t. Even when it happened it was rare and restricted to Bengal and Rajasthan. Sati, such as it was a choice of a ritual suicide after a husband’s death and generally discouraged if there were minor children.
    Its mostly 19th century Victorian propaganda for consumption back home about how the Indian savages needed to be Christianized and civilized. In fact the two Maratha sovereigns of the 19th century, Ahilyabai Holkar of Indore and Laxmibai of Jhansi were widows.

  185. 185
    Yarrow says:

    @Brachiator:

    Also, I find this British sentiment puzzling: “Oh, well, we stupidly voted ourselves out of the EU, despite low voter turnout and stupidity, but we will just have to jolly well soldier on, dump Cameron and replace him with Theresa May and just get on with it. Can’t change horses in mid stream, you know, or back up, turn around and fix this jam.”

    This is absolutely baffling to me too. It was a really close vote with a poor turnout. It was also structured poorly to screw Scotland, Wales and NI. I don’t understand this “let’s just get on with it” attitude. Given what we know now about Russian involvement in the US election seems there’s plenty of reason to revisit that for the Brexit vote. Austria had a re-vote due to interference. Others can do it too.

  186. 186
    Yarrow says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Well, there’s sure plenty of that kind of propaganda. Is there a more conservative sect of Hinduism that more negatively affects women? Seems like most religions have that.

  187. 187
    D58826 says:

    @Brachiator: Or the new thief on SCOTUS will follow Scalia’s ideas (hobby lobby good – pieotti(sp)) and rule against any practice that Jerry Falwell jr and Franklin Graham disapprove of.

  188. 188

    @Yarrow: Of course, like all major religions of the world. Hinduism is patriarchal.

  189. 189
    cosima says:

    @Yarrow: Yeah, I was pretty encouraged by the court ruling that gave us an out (to stay in). Friends said ‘it’ll still happen’ and sure enough, they voted to go forward.

    I don’t get to vote here, don’t even get to be involved in politics (says my visa), but I’m definitely not above giving people a stern talking to (in person) about the importance of voting. The new generation is going to have to carry the torch for progress, social & political, as is the case in the US. How it will go is anyone’s guess.

    Yes, there is special scorn for the vulgarian here in Scotland, but more than 50% of our friends are not Scottish, and there’s not a single one who’s expressed support for him or against immigrants. Could be we’ve just got lucky in choosing our friends.

  190. 190
    Yarrow says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Well, sure. But that’s a kind of general statement. Many religions have their various versions of the religion. Some much more conservative and reactionary than others. Does Hinduism follow that pattern? Like, say, the Southern Baptists in Christianity vs. the Methodists (there are more examples). Do the various “sects” (for lack of a better word) of Hinduism have names and known leanings? I don’t know that much about it, although I do know how it’s practiced in Bali differs from what I saw in India. And the Sri Lankan (mostly Tamil, I think) is also different. But I don’t really know that much about the variations or where they fall on the conservative-liberal scale.

  191. 191
    Yarrow says:

    @cosima: It was the same thing over here. Excited the court gave an out, but devastated they caved so quickly to go forward. I don’t get it.

    I hope the younger generation does get involved. From the percentages that voted in the referendum they didn’t seem too bothered to make their voices heard. Maybe the Trump/Brexit thing will wake up young people on both sides of the pond.

  192. 192
    1,000 Flouncing Lurkers (was fidelioscabinet) says:

    @Yarrow: My mother had surgery to pin a broken femur in her nineties, and they were very careful with follow-up from a psychologist to test for potential dysfunction. She was lucky and any loss was minimal, but at least they were taking it seriously.

  193. 193
    Brachiator says:

    @cosima:

    Even the people I know who voted for Brexit were basing it on economics, not immigration.

    Some people here say similar things about their voting for Trump, but it really doesn’t stand up. I do, however, remember some lies about how BREXIT would help with the NHS, etc, so I take your point.

    However, as I said, I am fortunate to mix with sane, sensible & kind (and mostly all highly-educated) people.

    Most of the people I deal with on a daily basis detest Trump, so I can relate to this.

    Subsequently Farage is now on the US side of the pond. If, following the vulgarian’s ouster (please let it be so!), he ends up considered a legitimate political voice (news/talk shows/etc) in the UK we’ll know that the world has well & truly gone to hell in a handbasket and that the UK’s political system is nearing implosion.

    This is strange. I doubt that anyone, conservative or liberal, knows who Farage is or would pay him any attention whatsoever had not Trump given him a nod of approval. I can’t imagine him having any influence with any but the most vile overt racists. He seems a slimy man. I can’t see him having much of a career as, say a Fox News contributor, because he doesn’t come across well on TV. Or off TV, for that matter.

  194. 194
    cosima says:

    @Brachiator: If Farage were better looking he’d be all over the news in the US spouting his hateful shite in a lovely British accent, and people would be eating it up. He is so incredibly awful that she was shunned/dunned out of the UK following the Brexit vote, and was fortunate enough to land in the vulgarian’s lap. I don’t know what sort of exposure he is getting via Fox, but as we all know, their standards are quite low.

    The *only* person I socialise with who voted for Brexit is an immigrant from Poland (PhD) who voted for it because he hates how the EU has treated Poland. His brother (also a recent immigrant) voted against. I’ve got a small-ish fabulous social circle, and I realise that I am quite lucky to have it so.

  195. 195
    wuzzat says:

    @rachel: Whatever the Aussie version of wingnuts are, they’ve got their fair share of them Down Under. I mean, they kept John Howard in the PM’s office for what, 12 years?

  196. 196
    Brachiator says:

    @cosima:

    If Farage were better looking he’d be all over the news in the US spouting his hateful shite in a lovely British accent, and people would be eating it up.

    It’s not just a matter of looks. There is something repellent about him. And he doesn’t know enough about US politics to make anything that he says sensible. I don’t know what Trump sees in him, and I don’t watch Fox, so I don’t know what Farage has offered. It couldn’t be much.

  197. 197
    cosima says:

    @Brachiator: “It’s not just a matter of looks. There is something repellent about him. And he doesn’t know enough about US politics to make anything that he says sensible. I don’t know what Trump sees in him,”

    All of that, what you said here, sounds an awful lot like someone… and I’m pretty certain it’s exactly what the vulgarian sees in him.

  198. 198

    @Origuy: The University is still part of the management group.

  199. 199

    @Yarrow: It depends on your family and the region of the country, your caste etc. Higher up you are in the caste hierarchy the more rituals you follow and so on. Hinduism is pretty live and let live. Hindus don’t have a pope or an Imam or clergy that they obey.
    A temple priest’s family is going to be much more ritual bound than say a doctor’s or a lawyer’s family even though they both may be of the same caste.

  200. 200

    @J R in WV: Not defensive, just irritated with the goings on. My nerves are on an edge.

  201. 201
    cosima says:

    @Brachiator: P.S. You may find this amusing (I did) — related to the slimy Farage.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-p.....ws_central

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