Men Like Ravenous Fishes Feed On One Another

Here’s a three-year old video with sadly renewed resonance.

It’s Ian McKellen, delivering a speech from Sir Thomas More, a work from the early 1590s that passed through many hands, including, as author of the passage McKellen performs, William Shakespeare.  It speaks precisely to the predicament we face now, and (as McKellen notes) because it’s Shakespeare’s the demand it makes on us is to discover our humanity.

Would that more of our former friends across the aisle could not just hear him, but listen.

Open thread.

163 replies
  1. 1
    rikyrah says:

    Secretary Mattis finds himself in an unenviable position
    01/30/17 10:00 AM
    By Steve Benen

    Rep. Seth Moulton (D-Mass.), a decorated military veteran, was asked yesterday what he’d say to retired Gen. James Mattis, Donald Trump’s new Defense Secretary, about the White House’s Muslim ban. The congressman didn’t hesitate in his response.

    “I worked for General Mattis,” Moulton explained. “I know him. There is no way in hell that he is supportive of this. He relied on translators for his life, just like I did. He understands what it means to put your life in the hands of an Iraqi or an Afghan. And he also knows that implicit in that is that they put their lives in our hands, as well – and now we’re abandoning them.”

    Moulton added, “[W]hat’s frightening about this situation is it shows that people like General Mattis … clearly don’t have a voice in the Trump administration.”

    That assessment is bolstered by revelations about how the president’s controversial executive order came to be. The New York Times reported overnight:

    Jim Mattis, the new secretary of defense, did not see a final version of the order until Friday morning, only hours before Mr. Trump arrived to sign it at the Pentagon.

    Mr. Mattis, according to administration officials familiar with the deliberations, was not consulted by the White House during the preparation of the order and was not given an opportunity to provide input while the order was being drafted.

    Mattis was, however, used as a prop when Trump hosted an event to unveil his executive order.

    It’s enough to make one wonder whether the Defense Secretary, chosen in part because the president thinks Mattis has a cool name, is going to be satisfied serving in this administration.

    Let’s not forget that it was Mattis, just six months ago, who said in reference to Trump’s proposed Muslim ban, “This kind of thing is causing us great damage right now, and it’s sending shock waves through the international system.”

    Now the White House is implementing that policy, without consulting with their Defense Secretary, and while using Mattis to lend his credibility to the initiative.

  2. 2
    Keith P. says:

    WaPo has a kind of odd article this morning about a “senior administration official” talking about how the refugee issue has been a “massive success”. Seems weird to set the terms this way (uberpropoganda under condition of anonymity introduced by another anonymous senior admin official).
    The phrasing the anonymous official used plus the whole situation smells like a case of John Barron, doesn’t it?

  3. 3
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @Keith P.: Look for a denial that the “conference” ever happened.

  4. 4
    Keith P. says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: This is totally a bizarre, Trump-like thing to do, though, right? He’s all pissed because the weekend has been one big shitstorm, but no one’s paying much attention to his tweets. His advisors tell him he can’t just call up the news orgs and start chewing them out, so they force them to agree to call him a “Senior Administration Official” ala Dick Cheney.

  5. 5
    Spanky says:

    @Keith P.: Awesome article. Of the “two senior administration officials”, one is clearly Trump. The other I thought might be Bannon, but by the end I was convinced it’s RNC PR BS.

  6. 6
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @Keith P.: Primus, the Senior Administration Official used complete sentences. Secundus, I thought the Republican President was in NYC this weekend.

    Dunno who it actually was, but I don’t think it’s the Republican President.

  7. 7

    Trump tweeted that most of the trouble at the airports was caused by the Delta computer outage. LOL

  8. 8
    Mary G says:

    Wow, that was just what I needed to hear this morning. One powerful voice on Sir Ian. Powerful words by W.S. Reminded me that this xenophobic shit has been going on for centuries and must be beat back down every time it rears its ugly head.

  9. 9
    MomSense says:

    @Keith P.: @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:

    Maybe it was his doctor? I thought his letter sounded like the Ochre Ogre, too.

  10. 10
    Spanky says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: First off, it doesn’t take that long to go between NYC and DC. Secondly, it’s not clear whether one or both, or neither of the SAOs were actually in the WH from this article:

    One senior administration official explained the ground rules to reporters gathered at the White House and listening on a conference call, then said: “With that, I’ll turn it over to a senior administration official.”

  11. 11

    Remember the good old days, when republicans thought you could get legitimacy from “fifty percent plus one vote”?

  12. 12
    Elmo says:

    This was powerful. Great stuff.
    Now I want to hear McKellen do the other famous Sir Thomas More, from A Man For All Seasons:

    William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
    Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
    William Roper: Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that!
    Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned ’round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake!

  13. 13
    Keith P. says:

    @MomSense: Careful…that’s probably our next Surgeon General.

  14. 14
    sukabi says:

    @Keith P.: there was an article the other day where drumpf was saying it was a sucksess…so yes, probably another John Barron production.

  15. 15

    @rikyrah: Mattis seems to be riding along on his past reputation. What has he done or said since his nomination that buttresses his past reputation.

  16. 16
    Immanentize says:

    @rikyrah: Seth Moulton is the real deal — On WBUR this morning, I heard him give a great riff about a Marine motto: “No better friend, no worse enemy.” He said the second part gets all the play, but the first part is as important meaning we stand by those who stand with us. And that the ban — which he purposely called a Muslim Ban — is making a lie of that motto. I heard that, turned to my son, and said, “That guy could be President.” My son said, “That guy should be President.”

  17. 17
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @Spanky: Ick.. Missed that.

    Still don’t think either one sounds like the Republican President. I agree that it sounds totally like something Trump would do, but I’m leaning toward someone else promising to do it in order to calm him down. It’s just not … word salady enough.

  18. 18

    @schrodingers_cat: Mattis is one example where I think the “keeping your powder dry” argument actually holds water. He gets to publicly oppose exactly one thing before he’s fired.

  19. 19
    dmsilev says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: I don’t think it’s in Trump’s nature to do the “anonymous senior administration official” bit. He wants people to know what he’s saying. The ASAO quotes are coming from his staff.

  20. 20
    rikyrah says:

    someone posted this at the end of another thread

    Trial Balloon for a Coup?
    Analyzing the news of the past 24 hours

    The theme of this morning’s news updates from Washington is additional clarity emerging, rather than meaningful changes in the field. But this clarity is enough to give us a sense of what we just saw happen, and why it happened the way it did.
    I’ll separate what’s below into the raw news reports and analysis; you may also find these two pieces from yesterday (heavily referenced below) to be useful.

  21. 21
    rachel says:

    @Major Major Major Major: At this rate the thing he’ll oppose will be orders to commit some war crime or other and it’ll happen by Valentine’s Day.

  22. 22

    @rachel: an optimist, I see.

    @rikyrah: Bettridge’s law of headlines states that any headline ending in a question mark can be succinctly answered by ‘no.’ I see no reason why this article deviates.

  23. 23
    rikyrah says:

    Trump supporters are the vice, not the voice, of America
    A few days ago I predicted that “within a year, perhaps deferred to 18 or even 24 months, Trump should be settling into George W. Bush’s final approval rating of 22 percent.” It seems I overshot probable reality by 12, 18 or 24 months.

  24. 24
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Matt Pearce ‏@ mattdpearce 3h3 hours ago
    Matt Pearce Retweeted Phil Mattingly
    Republican congressional aide just texted me and called Spicer’s claims “ridiculous.” “They’re losing Congress and don’t even realize it.”
    Phil Mattingly @ Phil_Mattingly
    Spicer is explicitly saying the reason the WH didn’t consult with agencies/Hill etc on refugee exec order was for national security reasons

  25. 25
    Kay says:

    Great propublica work on researching Jeff Sessions:

    “This is a unique and timely opportunity to make historic improvements in Alabama’s public schools for our children,” Hunt said at a news conference in 1993, “and we will not miss this opportunity.”
    Jeff Sessions had other ideas.
    Sessions, elected Alabama attorney general just a year after the courts had begun review of reform measures, didn’t think the state’s courts should have any role in deciding how Alabama educated its children. He hired expensive private lawyers to fight the findings of the court — first at the district level, later at the state Supreme Court level. He succeeded in removing a judge sympathetic to the plight of poor students from the case. He filed appeal after appeal, insisting he be heard even after the state’s highest court issued final decisions. He fought every effort by the court to require that schools in the state’s poorer communities be funded at the same levels as its wealthier ones.

    He’ll be a horrible AG on civil rights. We should set up charitable funding for ordinary people to access private lawyers to protect their civil rights. They’ll need a lawyer. Maybe some wealthy small “d” Democrat can fund it.

    It’s kind of an emergency. They won’t have federal civil rights protections.

  26. 26
    Origuy says:

    I just got up and haven’t read through the seven thread that started since I went to bed, so I don’t know if this has been mentioned yet.
    Matthew Iglesias in Vox reports that they received six draft executive orders. Two have been signed, matching word-for-word with what was leaked to them. The other four go even farther. Example:

    Currently, the federal government looks at use of cash benefits (like Temporary Assistance for Needy Families) when it’s making “public charge” decisions, but not in-kind benefits like Medicaid and the Children’s Health Insurance Program. This executive action, though, would ask the Department of Homeland Security to issue a rule saying that an immigrant can’t be admitted to the US if he’s likely to get any benefit “determined in any way on the basis of income, resources, or financial need.” Furthermore, people who use any of those benefits and are in the US on visas would be subject to deportation.

    So if you are an immigrant and your wife has a child and you take California Paid Paternity Leave, you can be deported.

  27. 27

    @Kay: He is an anti-immigrant bigot to the core. Miller was his aide.

  28. 28
    SenyorDave says:

    @Keith P.: smells like a case of John Barron

    Wasn’t that a failed Nirvana song?

  29. 29
    MomSense says:

    @Keith P.:

    That would be…tremendous.

  30. 30
    geg6 says:

    @Keith P.:

    That was exactly what I thought when I read it.

  31. 31
    geg6 says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:

    He was busy watching “Finding Dory” at the WH over the weekend, not NYC. At least, that’s what was reported.

  32. 32
    Bobby D says:

    Good morning.
    Last thread “stay pissed”? Staying pissed isn’t my problem. Finding a few moments that I’m not seething with rage is the problem.

    Today got email from CivPersonnel. The hiring freeze affecting non-military, is also in place for civil service across mil/DoD. So our open positions, (and we have way too many already, STEM jobs), will remain vacant. We never even got fully staffed-up after our last re-org.

    But I did get a smile as one of my Trumpkin colleagues, who’d been trying to find another Fed job to transfer back to his home state where his fiancé lives (2,000 miles away, been trying for over a year), got the news. He read the email and it hit him that he ain’t goin nowhere…and all I could think was “you voted for it, asshole, now you get it. Good and hard”.

  33. 33
    PPCLI says:

    @Elmo: Of course, among the “laws” More enforced when he had the authority to do so were laws commanding that Lutherans be burned at the stake. Laws that More carried out enthusiastically.
    That kind of takes the edge off the speech for me.

  34. 34
    geg6 says:

    @PPCLI:

    Yeah, not a big More fan here. He was a thoroughly disgusting person IRL. Though the words Willie S. put in his mouth are truly lovely.

  35. 35
    West of the Rockies (been a while) says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Over on The Oatmeal site is a one-panel comic called Cat’s Schrodinger you might enjoy….

    And Sir Ian rocks!

  36. 36
    Lizzy L says:

    @geg6: Yeah. More was a torturer. Not one of my favorites, either.

    The Vox article is very interesting. I’ve been waiting for the announcement of the EO rescinding DACA: looks like it’s coming. Again, not a surprise.

  37. 37
    Peale says:

    @Origuy: Yeah. Basically this sets up to stop all those “anchor babies” we here so much about, which are really just people in their 20s having children, but we can’t have that. My guess is that this is aimed at keeping working women out of the country. Same way they did for the Chinese at one time.

  38. 38
    Gindy51 says:

    @Bobby D: I would not have been able to resist saying that to the trump voter. You broke it, you bought it.

  39. 39
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Kay: We should do to Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III what we did not do to Jefferson Davis.

  40. 40
    rachel says:

    @Bobby D:You can ask him, “Since President Trump and the Republican Congress is going to create a job boom for sure, why don’t you just quit and go find another job in your fiancés town?”

    That could be entertaining.

  41. 41

    @Bobby D: I am absolutely in favor of Trump voters enjoying Trump policies. So, good.

  42. 42
    Peale says:

    @Lizzy L: Yep. The only surprise will be whether the 800,000 DACA enrollees are allowed to stay until their permits expire in two years or whether they must leave immediately. The early drafts were – you’ve got two years to leave. My guess is that it will be more extreme and we’ll have 800,000 more illegal immigrants today than the day before. My guess is that they won’t go back. Just go back into the shadows.

  43. 43
    rikyrah says:

    @Kay:

    He’ll be a horrible AG on civil rights. We should set up charitable funding for ordinary people to access private lawyers to protect their civil rights. They’ll need a lawyer. Maybe some wealthy small “d” Democrat can fund it.

    It’s kind of an emergency. They won’t have federal civil rights protections.

    He’s a racist in word and professional deed.

    And, I have no tolerance nor patience for any Democrat that votes for him.
    PERIOD.

    He is literally Senator White Citizens Council.

  44. 44
    chris says:

    @rikyrah: I just read that and it’s terrifying. Please do follow the links, they may be worse.

  45. 45
    PPCLI says:

    @Origuy: During the 25 years I was an immigrant in the US (student, then H1, then green card) I paid a lot of money in Federal taxes, including Medicare and Social Security taxes. A lot. One of the (many) reasons I took out citizenship is that I feared that a right-wing government would stop paying green card holders the benefits they had paid into. [cf. Flemming v. Nestor, 1960] I didn’t think that it might happen this quickly.

  46. 46
    neldob says:

    And the Republicans are on bended knee to this disgraceful man who is eager to destroy our democracy. They know he is disgraceful and malevolent, still they bow.

  47. 47
    rikyrah says:

    @chris:

    Please do follow the links, they may be worse.

    I did.

    As I said all during the election season:

    As a Black person..

    there was NOTHING about the history of America..

    that didn’t make me take the man at his word.

  48. 48
    Applejinx says:

    @Gindy51: The trouble is, they weren’t specifically demanding all this. A whole bunch of them thought they were doing some kind of protest vote. (I think it should be obvious by now that, though I voted for Hillary, I’m too close to these people’s tattered justifications to mistake them for what they are. They thought they were doing a protest vote or something.)

    We can’t go “HA HA, you suck! Enjoy!”. First of all it keeps ’em stuck in their ‘protest’ for what could be a crucial national moment.

    Secondly the stakes are kind of high.

  49. 49
    burnspbesq says:

    There were unconfirmed reports as of a couple of hours ago that flight attendants on two inbound international flights were trying to bully green-card-holding passengers into signing I-407s to surrender their green cards. That’s really sick if it’s true. It’s time for all the judges who issued TROs over the weekend to start issuing OSCs re contempt. The only good CBP or CIS person is one that’s in jail. And Trump and Kelly are named defendants in the Brooklyn case. A little showdown between the Secret Service and the Marshal’s Service on live teevee might wake some folks up.

  50. 50
    NotMax says:

    That’s Sir Ian McKellen, pilgrim.

  51. 51
    Brachiator says:

    @Origuy:

    So if you are an immigrant and your wife has a child and you take California Paid Paternity Leave, you can be deported.

    I will need to see the actual EOs here, but if true, it sounds like Bannon, and the idea that immigrants from some countries are parasites that must be kept out or otherwise dealt with.

  52. 52
    David Spikes says:

    @Lizzy L: Yes, More was a torturer,and very self righteous about it. Read Wolf Hall for a devastating portrait of More.
    I can’t think of a worse personwho has gotten better write ups.

  53. 53
    Lizzy L says:

    @David Spikes: I have read Wolf Hall, and Bring Up The Bodies.

  54. 54
    Miss Bianca says:

    Funny, I just got done with “Will in the World” – well, it was during the last days of the election – and I listened to Greenblatt’s discussion of this speech right after my last day calling for HRC. Gave me chills then, gives me bigger chills now.

  55. 55
    debbie says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Perhaps that one thing should be Bannon’s appointment to the NSC prinicpal committee and the removal of two previous members.

  56. 56
    Peale says:

    @Brachiator: Yep. Its very much directed at pregnant women. We will have border patrols patrolling hospitals.

  57. 57
    NotMax says:

    @Savid Spikes

    Charles Lindbergh.
    Andy Jackson.

    To name but a couple. The list is enormous.

  58. 58

    @burnspbesq: I heard those reports yesterday too.

  59. 59
    Kryptik says:

    I’m beating my head up against a wall after seeing line after line of folks who were talking about the protests, and responded with the idea of “gee, if all it takes is a ban to make you turn to ISIS, maybe Muslims really are a terrorist monolith of superhate!’ It’s like, holy fucking shit, you dense, hateful twits. You do not get the idea that maybe this reinforces the propaganda ISIS has been peddling that there really is a war against Muslims? Then again, that’s apparently what these motherfuckers want too since they’re convinced every person from the Middle East is an Al-Qaida robot waiting to activated or some shit.

    God, please, grant me mercy not to clock some of these assholes with a full metal water bottle.

  60. 60
    Lizzy L says:

    From The Handmaid’s Tale:

    We thought we could do better… Better never means better for everyone…. It always means worse, for some.

    Civilized society defined as a zero-sum game. I am certain this is what 45 believes, and I would guess that many of the people who support him believe it as well.

  61. 61
    NotMax says:

    @NotMax

    Aoplogies for misspelling David. No edit function.

  62. 62
    lamh36 says:

    @BraddJaffy
    Trump: “I noticed Chuck Schumer yesterday with fake tears” over immigration ban/refugees; “I’m gonna ask him who is his acting coach”

    @CleverTitleTK
    Jennifer Mendelsohn Retweeted Bradd Jaffy
    Repeat: Senator Schumer’s great-grandmother and 7 of her 9 children were murdered by the Nazis.

  63. 63
    NotMax says:

    Forgot to put up a second alert for Hotel Berlin on TCM. Movie began just a few minutes ago.

  64. 64
    Peale says:

    @Kryptik:

    Then again, that’s apparently what these motherfuckers want too since they’re convinced every person from the Middle East is an Al-Qaida robot waiting to activated or some shit.

    Yep. Pretty much. That’s the problem with you “politically correct people.” You don’t see the truth! One minute, that guy is a member of the AICPA and teaches at the local community college. The next minute…bam…he’s tossing homosexuals off buildings and marrying 7 year old children.

  65. 65

    @debbie: Perhaps. Or perhaps there’s something much worse coming down the pike. Or perhaps Mattis is exactly the sort of person who would work for Trump. I imagine we’ll find out soon enough.

  66. 66
    Bnad says:

    “A Quinnipiac University national poll conducted January 5 – 9 showed American voters support 48 – 42 percent ‘suspending immigration from ”terror prone” regions,’ even if it means turning away refugees from those regions.
    The independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University Poll also found in the January 5 – 9 survey that American voters support 53 – 41 percent ‘requiring immigrants from Muslim countries to register with the federal government.'”
    That poll, taken 3 weeks ago, was released today. I wonder if Bannon’s calculation on pitting the silent majority against the protestors rested on similar information. Hopefully the reality of the ban and its consequences have made that 48% think a bit about this.

  67. 67
    Origuy says:

    @Brachiator: The bit about paternity leave came from a friend of mine, who is an immigrant from Russia, now a citizen, and very anti-Putin. He isn’t a lawyer, so he might be wrong, but he’s been right about a lot of this stuff.

  68. 68
    NotMax says:

    @debbie

    Couldn’t disagree more.

    Silence or implied consent is nothing less than “first they came for the refugees and I said nothing…”

  69. 69
    Emerald says:

    Folks, I’ll put this here because it’s an open thread.

    One of my dearest friends, known from high school (and we graduated in ’68!) is in serious financial straits. She is a Hawaiian now living back in Hawaii, with diabetes, serious heart disease, on kidney dialysis, in a wheelchair, with a husband battling lung cancer. Her housing situation may get resolved (or may not), but she needs help. She’s posted a GoFundMe request.

    This lady raised three children on her own after her first husband deserted her. She became the typing champion in two different states, and ran a small business that kept everyone afloat. A few years ago she married her first boyfriend from high school when they found each other on the internet after 43 years, and the first thing that happened was his cancer diagnosis (first colon, which he beat, and now lung).

    She’s about as close to a living saint as I’ve ever known. Never complains. Just loves everyone. (Yes, the first husband was a shit.)

    If anyone can throw a few coins to her GoFundMe appeal, Emerald will heart you!! Thanks so much!!

    (If this forum is not the proper place for this, site management, I understand if you have to delete it.)

  70. 70
    Peale says:

    @Bnad: Yep. That’s kind of why we need to discuss the stupid implementation and the harm it did to people who haven’t committed any crimes. It isn’t an automatic winner to talk about refugees. If the president wasn’t such a shitweasel, he could win this argument very easily. But the incompetence of the implementation has created a lot of sympathetic victims, I think.

  71. 71
    Lizzy L says:

    Interesting fact from an article by Marty Walsh, the mayor of Boston: the Supreme Court has ruled that federal funds may not be withdrawn over issues unrelated to the funding legislation’s purpose.

    Thinking of 45’s threats to withhold funds for sanctuary cities.

  72. 72
    Jeffro says:

    J-Rubs gets it – the Right is split, and our democracy is up for grabs

    The two halves of the party differ on priorities, sensibilities, tone and values. The Trumpkins have put aside rationality and democratic norms; the other side of the GOP resists. The divide also separates those who already serve in the administration and those who refuse to. Among the latter are Trump critic, former State Department official and scholar Eliot A. Cohen, who wrote:

    We were right. And friends who urged us to tone it down, to make our peace with him, to stop saying as loudly as we could “this is abnormal,” to accommodate him, to show loyalty to the Republican Party, to think that he and his advisers could be tamed, were wrong. …

    To friends still thinking of serving as political appointees in this administration, beware: When you sell your soul to the Devil, he prefers to collect his purchase on the installment plan. Trump’s disregard for either Secretary of Defense Mattis or Secretary-designate Tillerson in his disastrous policy salvos this week, in favor of his White House advisers, tells you all you need to know about who is really in charge. To be associated with these people is going to be, for all but the strongest characters, an exercise in moral self-destruction.

    In short, #NeverTrump Republicans were right to take him literally and to understand the threat he poses to our democracy.

  73. 73
    NotMax says:

    @Jeffro

    The aphorism may be ancient but that doesn’t make it any less valid:

    Once the camel’s nose is inside the tent the rest of the camel isn’t far behind.

  74. 74
    Peale says:

    “India’s technology companies, led by Tata Consultancy Services Ltd, Infosys and Wipro, have argued they are helping corporations become more competitive by handling their technology operations with specialized staff. They also contend the visa programs allow them to keep jobs in the U.S. and that if they have to pay more for staff, they will handle more of the work remotely from less expensive markets like India.”

    India and only India. I actually kind of support the EO going after these companies. If Toyota built a plant in Ohio and flew Japanese workers in for most of the assembly jobs, we wouldn’t actually go “great corporate citizen there, Toyota.” I think these companies have abused their H-1 privileges. Our tech companies use the program to recruit from all over the world and its a feeder out of the University system for STEM grads into industry. But the majority of the H-1s in tech are now going to companies that don’t hire all that many US workers and don’t actually seriously recruit outside of one country. Yeah its lost local tax revenue if those jobs are done offshore in India, but I don’t think that’s the case. Those jobs are for the market that either can’t or isn’t interested in offshore tech support. Those jobs exist inside the US for a reason. I don’t feel that badly for targeting those three companies. If India would be open for immigration from the US or global labor, for that matter, I would have a problem with it. But I’m not really going to feel badly if Trump gets a “win” on this one.

  75. 75
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Applejinx:

    There is no such thing as a protest vote. I thought the left had learned that in 2000 like I did, but apparently we now have to learn that lesson even harder.

    A “protest vote” is letting the fascists win. Literally.

  76. 76
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Mnemosyne: Susan Sarandon was not acting in Rocky Horror. She really is that stupid.

  77. 77
    Kryptik says:

    In welcome news, found out that a rather briskly planned rally is planned just outside of one of my usual stops home from work, just an hour or so after I get off work. Even if it leaves some stuff for me to finish up on a video late tonight, I’m tempted to muster up a quick-fix sign and get involved.

  78. 78

    @Lizzy L: That’s true, though I can imagine them offering a pretty broad interpretation. Illegal immigrants use emergency rooms, after all.

  79. 79
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Applejinx: Anyone who “protest voted” for Donald Trump – or for any candidate who was not the only competent and non-insane candidate running – without having the foggiest idea of what that might actually DO – is at best an idiot who fell for the hype coming from both right AND left, at worst a cynical and malicious tool who figured *they’d* have nothing to lose when Loki came to Washington. They are beyond the reach of reason, barring some miracle. Progress is going to made not by them – not by reaching out to them – but by the non-insane stepping around them and moving on. Ridicule is, frankly, the least of what they’d have coming to them, if the arc of history bent not just toward justice, but toward poetic justice.

    I’m not surprised to hear you say you’re close enough to being this kind of idiot and/or tool to sympathize with them. We’ve all seen how tenuous your grasp is on actual reality. Your projections about other commenters here, and your misogynistic fantasies about the EEEVIL that is Hillary Clinton, for example, have been both puerile and nauseating. Not unlike the justifications I’ve heard for “protest votes”.

    The enemy of my enemy is not my friend – anyone who voted for Trump and now feels cause for repenting is no more than a fellow traveler – we may be camped together at the oasis and, in momentary solidarity, waving our firesticks at the predators out there threatening to devour us both – but that doesn’t mean I feel any need to trust or respect that person.

  80. 80
    NeenerNeener says:

    This whole administration is a mash up of The Boys From Brazil and The Manchurian Candidate, executive produced by Mark Burnett.

    If Bannon really wants WWIII, what will it take to get the country on board this time? Considering how belligerent Dolt 45 is being to the rest of the world if someone fires a rocket into Trump Tower I’m just going to shrug and say “Should have divested”, but I’m not Congress.

  81. 81
    Immanentize says:

    PS So much for DOW 20,000 It’s down about 150-ish points and falling. I think we have just hit the moment when bonds are looking better that stocks.

  82. 82
    NotMax says:

    @Immanetize

    Ah, but the alternative Dow…

    ;)

  83. 83
    rikyrah says:

    @NotMax:

    Silence or implied consent is nothing less than “first they came for the refugees and I said nothing…”

    Yep

  84. 84
    Aleta says:

    The press is making a deal out of the fact that Koch Bros. are against the EO,; media are calling it a split between conservative factions. But the Kochs and their C ato Institute have always disagreed with the Heritage Fdn about immigration, because their kind of libertarians want open borders. On things like deregulation, eliminating the EPA, abolishing federal land and national parks, removing the resources and powers of the federal government, my impression is there is more alignment than a big split. I even think they are taking advantage of this by feeding the press for their own purposes.

  85. 85
    father pussbucket says:

    @rikyrah:
    I saw this; it deserves close attention. Key points lifted from the article:

    1. Trump was, indeed, perfectly honest during the campaign; he intends to do everything he said, and more. This should not be reassuring to you.
    2. The regime’s main organizational goal right now is to transfer all effective power to a tight inner circle, eliminating any possible checks from either the Federal bureaucracy, Congress, or the Courts. Departments are being reorganized or purged to effect this.
    3. The inner circle is actively probing the means by which they can seize unchallenged power; yesterday’s moves should be read as the first part of that.
    4. The aims of crushing various groups — Muslims, Latinos, the black and trans communities, academics, the press — are very much primary aims of the regime, and are likely to be acted on with much greater speed than was earlier suspected. The secondary aim of personal enrichment is also very much in play, and clever people will find ways to play these two goals off each other.

    Trial Balloon for a Coup?

  86. 86
    Lizzy L says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Yes — but ERs in sanctuary cities don’t ask for immigration status. That’s part of being a sanctuary city. So there will be no statistics to demonstrate that usage. IANAL, but I think the federal courts would ask to see numbers. Of course, the administration will try to withhold funds, no doubt about it. But those who will push back are not without tools.

  87. 87
    Ian G. says:

    Between keeping Mattis out of the loop entirely, and the stories about outraged veterans heading to airports to help out Iraqi translators or the like, I’m feeling OK about the status of our military.

    If it ever fucking down to it, Bannon better hope he doesn’t make the same mistake Nicolae Ceausescu did in assuming the military was on his side.

  88. 88
    Sloane Ranger says:

    The debate on Boris Johnson’s statement to the House of Commons on the Muslim ban has just ended. Mucho self congratulations by Orange Minor on getting Uk citizens exempted. Allegation made that May was told this was coming during her visit to Washington. Orange Minor refused to confirm or deny. Doubled down on the State Visit.

    The House of Commons has just agreed to hold an emergency debate on US Immigration policy. The request was made by Ed Milliband (Lab) and Nadeem Zahari (Con) and supported by a majority of the House. The debate has just started. Ed Milliband proposing motion that the US ban is devisive, discimatory and ill-advised.

  89. 89
    🌷 Martin says:

    McKay Coppins has a piece at The Atlantic that especially non-New Yorkers should read.

    It’s a dynamic that I’ve not seen elsewhere in the nation, something about Manhattans hard geographic boundaries that create a hard cultural border between it and the outer boroughs. And he’s exactly correct, possibly even a little generous to Trump, that Trump was never accepted in Manhattan. See, Trump thinks that money can buy you status – which is why he gold plates every fucking thing. And in some places that may be true, but it’s not true in Manhattan. It’s something of a prerequisite, don’t get me wrong, but it’s only a piece of it. Trump may have money but he doesn’t have class, and that leaves him out of the culture. KFC on your private jet is what low-rent people do that have won the lottery. The culture he wants to be part of eat with style, even if they don’t have a lot of money to throw around. He does it exactly wrong. And NYC being what it is, that has always been pointed out to Trump, so he knows he’s on the outside looking in. He hosts Apprentice and Celebrity Apprentice, and yeah, he’s got suck-ups like Billy Bush, but Hollywood rejects him as well, probably because Gary Busey gets it better than Trump does. But his whole persona is wrapped up on being accepted as an elite, so it pains him terribly when he isn’t.

    Becoming President was part of his plan to finally break through. Popular support + money must surely be the ticket, no? Apparently not. DC doesn’t accept him. Sure, early on here they are polite and collegial, but that’s collapsing quickly. The media that used to sort of fawn over him as a playboy have all turned pretty viciously against him. The media is easy on people that don’t have material impact on the world around them, and are quite a bit more serious and critical with those that do. It was all fun and games talking about a ‘piece of ass’ with Howard Stern, but Chuck Todd is more interested in playing down his inauguration turnout numbers.

    So here’s a guy with money and now political power that is still on the outside and it pisses him off something fierce. I’m sure a lot of voters identify with that (smug coastal liberals, anyone?), but it’s a seriously big part of his psyche that will never, ever, ever fade. He will not get over this and he will not stop fighting for that spot, and the more he fights, the less likely he will get it. There was another piece at Vox about Bannon that is similar. Bannon is reacting to immigrants rising in social standing faster than he, a white native-born American has, in spite of being well educated and generally successful. He likely sees that as unfair, not understanding that it’s because he’s a horrible human being and that matters. Much of the racism in the south was really tied up in the social insecurity of whites starting to find themselves at lower social standing than blacks. That’s why they cried ‘sociallism’ in the 50s and 60s – they were less focused on the socialism policy of redistribution of wealth and more on the redistribution of social status. They were actually fine being poor, but they couldn’t abide by being a lower social class. That’s Bannon and that’s Trump. That Americans will fawn over some Syrian orphan and call Trump a short-fingered vulgarian and Bannon a Nazi is the very essence of unfairness to them. Bannon’s party that he wants to preserve at the expense of the state (which is also likely Trumps goal), is to put white Christian males back in the top social class, regardless of education or income or achievement. That’s the only thing that matters. That’s enduring to Bannon. So long as that’s happening, it can run under communism or fascism or democracy – it doesn’t matter. The state comes and goes, but the party of white Christian males must endure. Trump fits that mold as well. Putin does too. That coastal liberals are outraged – well, they’re good with that. Knocking us down a few pegs is the goal, after all.

    This is not an ideological fight that we recognize. This really is a straight up white supremacy fight, but in terms that we don’t recognize and don’t fully understand how to respond to. The GOP is just a convenient instrument to get where they want to go. They can burn in the end for all Trump and Bannon care.

    This is why the ‘fuck working class whites’ message is so dangerous. That’s what they want us to say, That’s the wedge being driven in.

  90. 90
    dmsilev says:

    @Immanentize: While I’m sure Trump and his band of racist assholes don’t care about such things, the people who bankroll the GOP Reps very likely do. And those Reps are up for reelection in somewhat less than two years. If Congress is going to do anything to rein him in, big money pushing on pushable GOP Reps will be one of the pieces in a cobbled-together majority.

  91. 91
    Spanky says:

    @Immanentize: Meh. It opened pretty well down, dropped a bit more, and is sort of stumbling along. I expect this sort of thing to continue for some days, a leaderless herd wandering listlessly until suddenly startled into the big stampede.

  92. 92
    aimai says:

    @Miss Bianca: I loved Will in the World! Read it a couple of years ago. Should re-read it!

    And thank you, tom, for posting this! I just forwarded it to my little shakespeare scholar.

  93. 93
    bluehill says:

    @Bnad: Bannon is smart and seems pretty good at reading and stirring up large groups of people. Trump won even though he explicitly talked about building a wall and banning muslims so there’s already a large minority that agreed or least did not find these to be disqualifying before the ban was announced. I’m not sure why the protests would cause them to change their minds because it’s what he promised, sadly.

    A Quinnipiac University national poll conducted January 5 – 9 showed American voters support 48 – 42 percent ‘suspending immigration from ”terror prone” regions,’ even if it means turning away refugees from those regions.
    The independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University Poll also found in the January 5 – 9 survey that American voters support 53 – 41 percent ‘requiring immigrants from Muslim countries to register with the federal government.’”
    That poll, taken 3 weeks ago, was released today. I wonder if Bannon’s calculation on pitting the silent majority against the protestors rested on similar information. Hopefully the reality of the ban and its consequences have made that 48% think a bit about this.

  94. 94
    joel hanes says:

    @rikyrah:

    Everyone should read that piece.

    It has three major points. Here’s one of them:

    Note also the most frightening escalation last night was that the DHS made it fairly clear that they did not feel bound to obey any court orders. CBP continued to deny all access to counsel, detain people, and deport them in direct contravention to the court’s order, citing “upper management,” and the DHS made a formal (but confusing) statement that they would continue to follow the President’s orders. … Significant in today’s updates is any lack of suggestion that the courts’ authority played a role in the decision.
    That is to say, the administration is testing the extent to which the DHS (and other executive agencies) can act and ignore orders from the other branches of government. This is as serious as it can possibly get: all of the arguments about whether order X or Y is unconstitutional mean nothing if elements of the government are executing them and the courts are being ignored.
    Yesterday was the trial balloon for a coup

  95. 95
    🌷 Martin says:

    @Lizzy L: Yeah, that’s baldly unconstitutional, and we can thank conservatives for helping establish that. Dems better bone up quick on the 10th amendment. The same set of precedents that were being erected to stop the feds from mandating Medicaid expansion, enforcing federal gun laws, and ensuring access to abortions are now going to be used to allow cities and states to protect immigrants.

  96. 96
    Immanentize says:

    Also, I think we should start a pool regarding when Trump will sign an executive order halting all work on the Tubman 20….

  97. 97
    Immanentize says:

    @Major Major Major Major: M4 — True story, in McAllen Texas, one of the hospitals had to be sued by Texas Rural Legal Aid for dressing their security guards like Border Patrol Agents in their effort to keep poor people from using that hospital.

  98. 98
    aimai says:

    @Miss Bianca: Well done Miss B! 100 percent correct on Applejinx and this weird, slavish, fixation on the Trump voters. There were only two kinds of Trump voters: ill intentioned or ill informed. And among the ill informed were people who purposely chose to be deluded and to believe obviously false, stupid, or evil things about non white people/liberals/hillary clinton because it was more pleasurable for them to do so. I have zero pity for either group.

  99. 99
    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap says:

    rachel claire ‏@rachie_claire

    I have a list of every friend who told me Hillary was just as bad as Trump and I read the list to myself every night like Arya Stark.

  100. 100
    hilts says:

    @Immanentize:

    I think we should start a pool regarding when Trump will have a total nervous breakdown and have to resign from office.

    From this point forward, Democrats should have a 2 track approach for dealing with this malevolent, insecure buffoon:

    1) obstruct, oppose, delay, and gum up the works on everything that Trump seeks to do

    2) vigorously pursue all lawsuits brought against Trump for violating the emoluments clause.

    Bottom line for me is that the Dems need to put the screws to this orange prick with the worst hairpiece in history – give him no quarter and make every goddamn day of his presidency a living Hell for him.

  101. 101
    JMG says:

    @🌷 Martin: I don’t think there’s much of that except for some venting. It is difficult to sympathize with people who can only feel good by mistreating others, but the harshest thing I’ve said to any Trump voter is “I think you’ll find you made a big mistake. I’ll check back later.”

  102. 102
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @🌷 Martin:

    This is why the ‘fuck working class whites’ message is so dangerous. That’s what they want us to say, That’s the wedge being driven in.

    How do Donald Fucking Trump and Steve Fucking Bannon become the avatars of “working class whites”? Can we say “fuck the rich bigoted whites”?

  103. 103
    Yoda Dog says:

    @Immanentize: Yea I thought of that the other day. The Tubman 20 died on 11/9 with so much else. I’m surprised that wasn’t on the docket for day 1.

  104. 104
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Applejinx:

    (I think it should be obvious by now that, though I voted for Hillary, I’m too close to these people’s tattered justifications to mistake them for what they are. They thought they were doing a protest vote or something.)

    Fuck them. And you’re no better.

  105. 105
    Applejinx says:

    @Mnemosyne: You too, huh? Yeah, that’s when I learned that. Didn’t matter how partisan I was in 2016, there was not going to be a protest vote from me or anyone within earshot that mattered to me.

    I think not voting also counts as a protest vote, and I think people have to learn that for themselves. Unfortunately.

  106. 106
    bmaccnm says:

    @Peale: But DACA enrollees aren’t in the shadows. My co-worker’s husband is one. He was brought to the US from a Pacific Island as a toddler- his family kept trading the passport back and forth for all the kids. He’s always lived here, was educated here, has a wife and a house and a few kids here. He can’t hide. He enrolled in DACA a few years ago, and he’s terrified that there’s a database, and he’s on it.

  107. 107
    mai naem mobile says:

    I’ve tried calling the Senate, Flake and McCains direct senate numbers with no answer. McCains Phoenix office voice mail is full. Only number that answered was Flakes Phoenix number and I let them know what i thought of the EO.

  108. 108
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: A sound plan.

  109. 109
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @🌷 Martin: The correct message is “Fuck White Supremacists”. That includes some white working class people, of course, but not because they’re working class.

  110. 110
    Gin & Tonic says:

    My state’s two Congressmen have signed on to a call to “celebrate diversity” at the President’s address to Congress on Feb 28: “Members of Congress are encouraged to invite someone who has, despite discrimination, made a positive impact on his or her community, exemplifying the ideals of our great nation.”

    Background: one of them is disabled, and the other is gay.

  111. 111
    Brachiator says:

    President Trump (hard to actually type that) is riding the Express Train to Crazy Town with Executive Orders.

    Trump signs executive order requiring that for every one new regulation, two must be revoked

    Really? Really? It’s that easy to snap your finger and arbitrarily decide which old regulations should be done away with?

    Or in Trump’s case, tiny fingers.

  112. 112
    rikyrah says:

    @🌷 Martin:

    This is not an ideological fight that we recognize. This really is a straight up white supremacy fight, but in terms that we don’t recognize and don’t fully understand how to respond to. The GOP is just a convenient instrument to get where they want to go. They can burn in the end for all Trump and Bannon care.

    WHO doesn’t recognize it, Boo?

    I dare say that the NON-WHITE population recognized it LONNNNG ago.

    This is why the ‘fuck working class whites’ message is so dangerous. That’s what they want us to say, That’s the wedge being driven in.

    Um…we’re done trying to ‘ understand’ muthaphuckas that consistently vote against their economic interest because they wanna CLING TO THE WHITENESS.

    Don’t care. Not one solitary phuck is to be given about them.

  113. 113
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Immanentize:

    Not really, since Shitgibbon has suggested that the USA won’t honor its debts.

  114. 114
    sharl says:

    If you’ve been on political social media for any length of time, you likely know the name of conservative Ben Howe. The following tweets are pretty new.

    I’ve personally seen Bannon try to completely destroy people in ways that will never become public info. He is the monster you think he is.

    To be frank, I was his friend before I saw what he was doing to others.

    I urge journalists to seek out people (specifically women) that worked for him. He wasn’t a womanizer to my knowledge. But he was a monster.

    I worked on two films with the guy. One of them you can see my credit at IMDB. But sure. I don’t know a thingy dingy about him. Hokay.

    Must say I’m surprised how many people think it’s my duty to violate other people’s desire to stay silent. This was a PSA. Not an article.

    Other Howe tweets suggests he’s at a critical personal crisis point, brought there by this matter.
    I wonder if there are others like him who will come forward? Bannon is not a man who takes slights with magnanimity, so it would be no small matter to go public with dirt on the guy.

  115. 115
    rikyrah says:

    @hilts:

    Bottom line for me is that the Dems need to put the screws to this orange prick with the worst hairpiece in history – give him no quarter and make every goddamn day of his presidency a living Hell for him.

    Amen

  116. 116
    Kay says:

    Heitkamp a no on DeVos. Release notes: “95% of the almost 1,400 North Dakotans who contacted Heitkamp about DeVos opposed Devos nomination.”

    The coastal elites in North Dakota oppose Trump’s ed secretary. Call. It’s working.

  117. 117
    Applejinx says:

    @Miss Bianca: Honestly, you are the one I got most wrong. What with talk of going to Ireland for fox hunting, I seriously thought you were the Queen ;) learning you’re out West changed that context.

    It’s a pity, you’re named after a mouse I quite like. But her voice actor is dead, so is our republic, and some of you folks represent a class of people I hold responsible in part for the latter. The more you folks just give in to your hate and vengeance fantasies, the more I think you are honorable enemies to have. The feeling you express is mutual.

    For fuck’s sake, if you must steamroll all opposition by fair means or ‘meh’, the least you could have done is steamroll Trump and prevent all this. Backing up and steamrolling Bernie again when he will never, never, ever be President is deeply unimpressive. Go ahead and try to primary him: if you fail it serves you right, and if you succeed you’ll remove another politican who caucuses with Democrats, which is sure to end well, and people will have learned something important about what kind of people you are.

  118. 118
    Yoda Dog says:

    Voting for the shitgibbon was a FUCK YOU vote. I dont even know what a protest vote even means. But I’ve heard the shitgibbon voters loud and clear. Message received.

  119. 119
    The Moar You Know says:

    There is no such thing as a protest vote. I thought the left had learned that in 2000 like I did, but apparently we now have to learn that lesson even harder.

    @Mnemosyne: Lesson not learned, at least from what I hear from the few followers of St. Bernard of Failure I still am willing to talk to. And the Old Man Himself puked up a post on the Book of Faces that also showed that he has in no way learned a goddamn thing either. Trump goes full Hitler, he castigates Democrats for their failures.

    Not helping.

  120. 120
    Peale says:

    @bmaccnm: Yep. I know. Its not as simple as what I say. It is going to be forced removal of people who have jobs and houses. Its going to be incredibly disruptive. 800,000 people will reach into millions of people quickly.

  121. 121
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Applejinx: Yeah, what other liberal could POSSIBLY be elected in Vermont? Good thing we have Bernie Sanders to show us the way. He’s quite the trailblazer.

  122. 122
    Applejinx says:

    @The Moar You Know: Fine. Go back and win the election. It’s against Donald Pussy Grabbing Trump, whom nobody likes, and should be easy, even when you consider the intense anti-black vote rigging: just overwhelm that advantage.

    Are we supposed to act like Democrats won? At this point, it’s moot: there is no telling who is going to be resisting and who’s going to just go along with the coup. It looks to me like all of our leaders failed, not excepting homeboy Bernie, and it’s just up to us.

    Coming around and demanding automatic respect for Democrats because they’re not Trump is… a low bar.

  123. 123
    pamelabrown53 says:

    @Sloane Ranger: #88.
    While I agree with British Miliband that Trump’s EO is “divisive, discriminatory and ill advised”, I’d be astounded if a vote condemning would be passed. I’m thinking the most we can hope for is there is so much ruckus from the Brits that any official state visit (involving the queen) will be kaboshed.

  124. 124
    Applejinx says:

    @The Moar You Know: Fine. Go back and win the election. It’s against Donald Pussy Grabbing Trump, whom nobody likes, and should be easy, even when you consider the intense anti-black vote rigging: just overwhelm that advantage.

    Are we supposed to act like Democrats won? At this point, it’s moot: there is no telling who is going to be resisting and who’s going to just go along with the coup. It looks to me like all of our leaders failed, not excepting homeboy Bernie, and it’s just up to us.

    Coming around and demanding automatic respect for Democrats because they’re not Trump is… a low bar.

  125. 125
    The Moar You Know says:

    @Applejinx: you seem extremely defensive. I wasn’t even addressing you.

  126. 126
    Mary G says:

    @Applejinx: Though I love you, Miss Bianca, I wish there was a “like” button just this once for Applejinx, who I have long admired despite thinking Wilmer a plague on our democracy in 2016 for peddling pernicious revolutionary bullshit, using and then abandoning the Democratic party, and more.

    This is a new year with an enemy handling the levers of powers that is googles-times worse than Wilmer ever was. Relitigating that which is done in the Democrats’ circular firing squad, “You’re a purity pony, no you’re a purity pony” SOP of decades is playing right into President Bannon’s lumpy Leninist hands. Anger turned inward leads to depression. We can’t afford depression right now. We can’t afford to be the usual herd of cats. This is too important.

  127. 127
    Kay says:

    At press briefing, Spicer talks about the number of views the President’s first weekly address received. Likely a directive from POTUS.

    Trump is just a terrible person. Education and income doesn’t matter. You don’t need either to recognize a bad person when you meet one.

    They show poor judgment, Trump supporters. My 8th grader has 7 dollars to his name and an 8th grade education. He thinks Trump’s a bad person, because he is. Obviously.

  128. 128

    @Mary G: I was just about to write this same thing. Miss Bianca, you’re being unhelpful and out of line, and I say that as somebody who usually disagrees strongly with what Applejinx writes.

    We can resume the circular firing squad once we’ve saved the republic.

  129. 129
    dogwood says:

    @aimai:
    I read this blog for 5 or 6 years before I made my first comment after the ’08 election. I have a good memory, so I often remiember what people around here said long ago. I can’t see AJ’s name without thinking of his epiphany re Hillary. You see it was that fact that she was so evil and corrupt that would make her a good president. It’s a classic.

  130. 130
    rikyrah says:

    @Peale:

    800,000 people will reach into millions of people quickly.

    You don’t think their lives touch at least 5 people?
    MILLIONS very very quickly

  131. 131
    Applejinx says:

    @Mary G: If I earn a like just once, don’t bother with it. I spend a fair amount of time trying not to curse and swear and abuse, and yet somehow communicate. As near as I can tell there’s no point even bothering but I do it anyway, because I used to be allowed here, and it used to have a bunch of points of view in calmer times.

    For what it’s worth, there is absolutely no chance Hillary could have been anything LIKE as awful as Trump has turned out to be, and again, to suggest such a thing is crazy. I’m frustrated, disappointed, and I lose my shit when her failure is turned into a excuse for hippie-bashing. Look, it turns out you can change America REALLY QUICK! Who knew? And we ended up with the open break into basically civil war landing on the Republican side as far as blame is concerned.

    Had it been Hillary or Bernie who won, we’d have the same thing except it would be full-on RWNJ terrorism. This country was not going to hold together. There were no right answers. The one saving grace here is that a hostile force taking over the country by subterfuge and cheating has volunteered to be ALL of the things we hate. Sure he’s a racist fuck, but you know what? He was straight up lying the whole time about offering economic rescue and he’s the epitome of a capitalist douchebag and is everything Socialists hate too.

    I have a very hard time forgetting that. The guy pulled every string and told every lie and unlike my Vermont senator (who didn’t have a plan, but meant all the ‘billyunairs’ talk) he didn’t even mean anything he said. But since he’s treated as incredibly wealthy, the media and the country ate it right up. Which is the whole problem with political billionaires, real or fake.

  132. 132
    Brachiator says:

    @🌷 Martin:

    This is not an ideological fight that we recognize. This really is a straight up white supremacy fight

    There is nothing new or strange about this. White Supremacy is America’s original sin. White conservatives, and even some white liberals, love to pretend that this evil is no longer part of what makes the country tick, that the boil was lanced with the 60s Civil Rights era, but it has continued to fester.

    And it is no surprise that it is popping so blatantly in a Trump Administration. Birtherism, the odd obsession with the legitimacy of Obama’s academic pedigree, Trump’s own past history with discrimination lawsuits. Fertile ground to feed a new generation of racists.

  133. 133
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Major Major Major Major: @Mary G: Bully for you. Applejinx is a ridiculous person.

  134. 134
    darrel wright says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: I’d say the correct message probably doesn’t include “fuck” or any reference to race or ethnicity or age or gender at all.

  135. 135
    hilts says:

    @Bobby D:

    I will never have any sympathy for a Trump voter. Any person who voted for this knuckle dragging neanderthal is a scumbag.

  136. 136
    Applejinx says:

    @dogwood: Never said that, though I wouldn’t be surprised if I said ‘ruthless and tough and badass’. It got my purity pony brother off the ‘write in Bernie’ bandwagon. He voted for Hillary too. There were a few others who responded to that framing, and voted for Hillary in the end.

    I wish she was what I thought she was. We need that now that government’s dead. We’d be seeing her riding a fuckin’ white horse up to the White House, bellowing ‘FACE ME!’ :)

  137. 137
    joel hanes says:

    Had it been Hillary or Bernie who won, we’d have the same thing except it would be full-on RWNJ terrorism.

    No. Exciting to believe, but no.
    Trump is the catalyst that has enabled and encouraged contempt for the rule of law.

  138. 138
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Applejinx: Remember when, lo these many days ago, you were saying how smart it was that St. Bernie voted for two of Trump’s nominees?

  139. 139
    darrel wright says:

    @FlipYrWhig: Can I join Applejinx in the basket of ridiculous people?

  140. 140
    Applejinx says:

    @FlipYrWhig: Remember when people around here were saying that Mattis has probably one chance to make a big stand and then be fired?

  141. 141
  142. 142
    hilts says:

    @Kay:

    Your 8th grader has far more maturity than Trump is capable of achieving. He has the emotional maturity of a 7 year old child and he’s a vindictive asshole.

    Hopefully, one of the lawsuits against him will gain traction and force him to actually separate himself from his business interests instead of following the bullshit plan his idiot lawyer outlined at that bogus press conference.

  143. 143
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Applejinx: No, I don’t.

    @darrel wright: It takes most people quite a lot of effort to get there.

  144. 144
    🌷 Martin says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    How do Donald Fucking Trump and Steve Fucking Bannon become the avatars of “working class whites”? Can we say “fuck the rich bigoted whites”?

    Because we don’t recognize the class gap. Trump is rich, but he’s an outsider to the growing dominance of the tech/liberal/multicultural class. Bannon is an outsider as well. A lot of working class whites feel like outsiders as well. They’re less concerned about being rich (and income inequality overall) and more concerned about being culturally accepted. Trump and Bannon look like them in that regard, even if they are rich. Those guys rolling coal in their pickup trucks have a lot more money invested in their truck than the Prius drivers they are choking out, but they feel looked down upon by the global warming community. They may defiantly state they don’t care about that, and react aggressively in response, but that doesn’t mean they don’t care about feeling included. Our ‘fuck the white working class’ is a similar reaction. I know we all really care about that community, but we feel rejected by them, but in a different way.

  145. 145
    catclub says:

    @Spanky: agreed on meh.
    a bad day or two after two really good months just happen, no significance…. yet.

  146. 146
    1,000 Flouncing Lurkers (was fidelioscabinet) says:

    @Kay: North Dakota doesn’t have enough large urban and suburban areas for charter schools to work well–you need a certain volume of students to make those effective. A state consisting largely of small towns and rural areas is not ideal charter school country.

    Also, in small town and rural districts, it’s easier to feel you can get a good response from the school board, which I think helps damped charter school fervor among parents.

  147. 147
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @🌷 Martin: Just seems like asshole identity politics to me. “Hey, _I’m_ an asshole! Finally a candidate who’s a lot like me and at ease around my community!”

  148. 148
    raven says:

    who the fuck is wilmer

  149. 149
    darrel wright says:

    @🌷 Martin: I think this is pretty much what I missed or discounted when I thought Trump had no real chance. I don’t think it’s limited to the “rolling coal” crowd either, I think a little of that spirit seeps into the “prominent local republican” types, maybe the guy who owns the Dairy Queen in the small town. The national culture looks down on them just enough that they let some Trumpy stuff slide that they probably wouldn’t if their egos were in slightly better places.

  150. 150
    🌷 Martin says:

    @rikyrah:

    WHO doesn’t recognize it, Boo?

    I dare say that the NON-WHITE population recognized it LONNNNG ago.

    Fair enough.

    My point wasn’t to suggest that white supremacy is a new phenomenon, rather that the notion that the President and his chief political advisor have zero real concern for protecting their party is a very new thing, and change how to work to get things done.

  151. 151

    @🌷 Martin: B worked for Goldman Sachs and Hollywood Studios for crying out loud.

  152. 152
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @raven: It’s a way to refer to the junior senator from Vermont without tipping off people who seem to have an alert set for whenever his name appears in comments.

  153. 153

    @FlipYrWhig: Have you noticed how the Senator’s ex and current fans are busy promoting the theory that it was the meanness of liberals that is responsible for the nightmare on Pennsylvania Ave.

  154. 154
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @raven: Code name for a certain Vermont senator who is not a Democrat but tried to gt the Democratic nomination. Using his real name seems to bring trolls who may have an alert set for his name.

  155. 155
    Applejinx says:

    @🌷 Martin:

    Those guys rolling coal in their pickup trucks have a lot more money invested in their truck than the Prius drivers they are choking out, but they feel looked down upon by the global warming community.

    And fucking rightly so! o_O

  156. 156
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I hadn’t. I tend to see a lot more of the “oh yeah well the neoliberal corporatists blew it!” sort of thing.

  157. 157

    @FlipYrWhig: Its a new tactic to derail threads, especially the one that talk about resistance. Check out the morning thread

  158. 158

    @🌷 Martin: Most actual working class like Democrats just fine, no matter what race of ethnicity. Its the pretend ones like B and D that don’t.

  159. 159
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Ah, I hadn’t followed that, but now I see what you mean.

  160. 160
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Sloane Ranger:

    Totally random question: does the Queen have the power to refuse to meet with Trump? I mean, I’m sure she could plausibly claim to be sick and boycott that way, but is she able to say, “No way, I ain’t meeting that asshole”?

  161. 161
    Tony J says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Not a chance. If the British Government says the President of the United States is coming on a state visit, the Queen will do what she has to do.

    She won’t like it though, and millions of Britons will enjoy a nice day out telling The Spite That Walks Like A Man he’s not welcome and trying to come up with truly inventive insults for our placards. Why should you lot get all the fun?

  162. 162
    NotMax says:

    @Tony J

    A half dozen horseshoes inside the royal handbag and one good swing upside the head.

    (One can dream, anyway.)

  163. 163
    jake the antisoshul soshulist says:

    @SenyorDave:

    A Case of Steve Bannon. Either a terminal disease or an episode of Perry Mason that was too preposterous to air.

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