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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Open Thread: Yeah, Pretty Much…

Open Thread: Yeah, Pretty Much…

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  2. 2.

    ThresherK (tablet)

    Don’t know who Calavera is, but use of the adjective “Democrat” is setting off my alarms.

  4. 4.

    Spanky

    How ’bout “some male democrats in leadership positions”, ’cause that’s about all you’re hearing from anyhow. After all, it’s not like the media is going around interviewing Democrats like they do Republicans.

  5. 5.

    Corner Stone

    Take away the clutching over “Democrat” for a second. Biden, Bernie, Obama all say they would have of course beat Trump.
    Uh huh.
    Uh huh.

  6. 6.

    Mary G

    I knew a lot of hippies who thought the “old lady” was there to cook, fetch cold beer, and give sex on demand but otherwise STFU. They were appalled by the feminist movement. It’s not just the left, though.

    What makes me sad is that so many women still buy into it.

  8. 8.

    Spanky

    @Corner Stone: At least Obama has the poll numbers to back that up. And anyway, he was straight up trolling Cheeto Benito.

  10. 10.

    Baud

    To play devil’s advocate for Kara, I have accidentally typed “Democrat” when I meant to type “Democratic.” It’s a muscle memory thing.

  14. 14.

    Miss Bianca

    Goes back to the 60s? Try, the 1860s. No, the 1760s. No, you can keep going back, and back…the “left” has had a sexism problem pretty much its entire existence.

  17. 17.

    Baud

    @Corner Stone: At some point, she’ll do something that is just like everything else she has ever done, and people will say “where was that person during the election?” and they will mean it to, but it’s all bullshit.

  18. 18.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Spanky: and a winning record, unlike Bernie or Biden, and while I do think the latter would’ve had a chance against Trump, it’s not a sure thing, as counterfactuals go…

  22. 22.

    JPL

    MSM played along with Trump and his crooked Hillary theme. She still would have won without Comey and the constant leak of emails from the Russians. She did fine considering what she was up against. and after all she won by close to 3 million votes. Of course, it would have been easier for those, not fighting against what she was.

  23. 23.

    Baud

    Is Dean still running for DNC chair? If so, why is he engaging in twitter small talk with Kara about this issue?

  25. 25.

    delk

    Quick Gav update:

    His counts are doing better but his liver is still a problem. Ultrasound revealed nothing.
    Good chance he can come home tomorrow.

    My husband swung by for a visit and shot the short vid. Sorry about the portrait mode.
    Gav says hello

  26. 26.

    Corner Stone

    We love you, riiiiggghhhtt up til you seek power and position. Then? Fuck that nonsense. Get back in the kitchen and make me some pie!

  34. 34.

    raven

    @delk: Good. Why the cone of shame, did they cut somewhere? I thought they would put one on Lil Bit today when they took the big growth off her face but they didn’t.

  36. 36.

    Corner Stone

    @JPL: Who gives a shit who is trolling that fucking man baby any longer? And so the fuck what?
    I keep getting told that he is SO DONE WITH US and he is SO OUTTA HERE and HE OWES US NOTHING. If that’s the case then shut up and take the train. Stop potshotting people in your own party. I guess.

  38. 38.

    germy

    @Baud: What she was up against was unprecedented. There isn’t a republican politician alive who would survive having his emails leaked. There was no smoking gun in anything HRC wrote, but they didn’t care, they were too busy “raising questions.”

  40. 40.

    Schlemazel

    @Baud:
    Exactly, those haughty women just don’t get men. The women are condescending & think they are better than us. If they want to win they have to reach out to us.

  42. 42.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Corner Stone: I keep getting told that he is SO DONE WITH US and he is SO OUTTA HERE and HE OWES US NOTHING. If that’s the case then shut up and take the train.

    has he said those things? cause if we’re talking about things other people said, I’ve seen a whole lot of people blaming Obama for not being able to 1) win the election for Clinton 2) fix things after she didn’t win

  45. 45.

    germy

    @randy khan: John Lennon sang about it, after his experience with the Jerry Rubin-types.

    I gotta ask you comrades and brothers
    How do you treat your own woman back home?
    She got to be herself
    So she can free herself

  46. 46.

    errg

    Yeah, I mostly think that Obama has done about as well as he could during his presidency, but this is just a dumb ass, unforced error, stupid thing to say. Who knows how he would have done against Trump? He beat Romney by 3.9%, which is probably (another counterfactua! what fun!) where Clinton would have ended up without Comey’s intervention. It’s not like he was stomping everyone in sight by double digits.

    This stinks of sexism to me (a middle aged white male…)

  51. 51.

    JPL

    @Corner Stone: This is OT but did you see the story where Bibi asked Putin to block the UN vote on the settlements. Russia did try to delay the vote according to the article. Strange bedfellows indeed, Trump, Bibi and Putin. I hope that Adam weighs in about that.

  52. 52.

    Miss Bianca

    @Corner Stone: Yeah, I’m with you on this one. Whether or not PBO would have won a third term against the Shitgibbon is so beside the point. And to me it does come off as being a dis against HRC. Et tu, Baracke?

  53. 53.

    Major Major Major Major

    @debbie: so in my experience, the left does have a sexism problem. Everybody does, of course, all groups do and to a degree it’s just the same ol in that regard. Just like the left has an authoritarianism problem same as all other movements. But it’s got its own flavor, I can’t seem to pin it down exactly though. But it’s different somehow.

  54. 54.

    raven

    @delk: Got it, Lil Bit did too but I just took the bandage off and she’s not messing with it.Maybe hers is smaller and wasn’t in as long?

  55. 55.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @delk:

    Oh, poor thing in his Cone of Shame. But the news all sounds encouraging. Cautious optimism? Will continue to keep everything crossed for Gav, although I must admit some of my muscles are beginning to cramp up.

    Thank you for keeping us posted. There are a lot of people pulling for that sweet pup.

  57. 57.

    Corner Stone

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    has he said those things?

    Nope but he has clearly said some shit that makes no sense in the context of not doing any other of the things you mention. Either go for it or go away.
    The most ardent supporters here keep telling me twixt and tween and want it all.

  62. 62.

    EBT

    Looking at cole’s twitter feed I just realized something. Putting the low level dealers of the excess pharmaceuticals would also stop a good deal of social security from going in to those states. Private prisons will be paid to house elderly inmates in conditions that we would put people in jail for housing the elderly in other circumstances.

  67. 67.

    Mnemosyne

    @Spanky:

    Spanky, you know I love ya, man, but it’s true. Think of how many otherwise liberal men right on this here website keep going on and on (and on) about their visceral dislike of Hillary Clinton that they can’t quite put their finger on, and yet they can’t let go of it and see her as a pretty standard center-left politician, almost identical to Obama except for the equipment Nature provided each of them at birth.

    Trump did slightly better with white men than Romney did. In fact, he did a few percentage points better with men of all races than Hillary did. Those couple of points around the edges are subconscious misogyny at work. Denying it will work about as well as denying that racism exists.

    (Fixed an accidental double negative.)

  69. 69.

    Corner Stone

    @JPL: I have not seen anything on that. I agree that if it’s a thing maybe we can get some learned context from our friend the Dr.
    Wasn’t the vote like 14-0 ?

  72. 72.

    Baud

    @Mnemosyne:

    see her as a pretty standard center-left politician, almost identical to Obama

    I thought the comparison to how Hillary and Biden were talked about was more telling.

  73. 73.

    Schlemazel

    @JPL:
    Putin’s game is to undermine US power everywhere (In my useless opinion). He has done a great job in Iran Egypt and Syria. If he can wedge Israel the US is left with Saudi Arabia and maybe the emirates, for now & they are all ripe for being overthrown.

    It would be an interesting world because China is just sitting back and making bank while we play out Cold WarII. A world where China and Russia are the political powers while the US has a huge military & a chip on its shoulder really could be the apocalypse.

  74. 74.

    raven

    @SiubhanDuinne: She climbed in Bohdi’s living room crate and seems to be hoping for a cookie. When I picker her up they said “if she eats, give her a rimadyl”!!!!!! “If she eats! They said it’ll take up to 10 days to get the lab results back so we just have to drive on.

  75. 75.

    VincentN

    @errg: I just think it means Obama thinks highly of himself and his ability to win elections. Which is an attitude that pretty much every successful politician has about themselves. And he’d probably feel the same way if it had been Bernie who lost.

  81. 81.

    Renie

    Interesting rationale; Idiot Carl Paladino (who said those disgusting racist remarks about Pres Obama and Michele Obama) claiming he meant those remarks to go just to his friends. He’s not really racist.

    WTF?

  82. 82.

    Chip Daniels

    I don’t have patience for another circular firing squad.
    Yeah, plenty of leftist men are jerks.
    But fuck off, plenty of leftist women are racist.
    So what?

    Is there some invisible judge awarding points on how many witches and heretics you can spot and denounce?

    Isn’t it better to find ways to craft alliances and coalitions to fight y’know, the actual Nazis in power?

    P.S. I was and always will be proudly with HRC.

  83. 83.

    TS

    Reading Booman – the US has a president-elect who seeks revenge against anyone who has done anything he dislikes over the past 70 years. This is why the media and business and politicians (both sides) refuse the call him out. To think that someone who thinks and acts this way could be President of the United States is beyond anything sane. WWIII will happen and people will be too scared to argue against it.

    http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2016/12/27/132023/77

    Christie deserves all he gets – but he should not be punished for actually doing his job – he should be punished for all the sh!t he has done since becoming Governor.

  86. 86.

    danielx

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    The GOP is pro-sex, as long as they pay for it. Capitalism!

    And as long as they get to feel guilt and shame afterwards. Double that if dildos and wetsuits are involved.

  89. 89.

    Baud

    @Chip Daniels:

    I was and always will be proudly with HRC.

    Same here. The country’s indulgence with Hillary bashing has given us President Trump. I’m tired of it.

  90. 90.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    so judging from this Chris Hayes got steam-rolled (again) by that ex-Fiorina aide he keeps insisting on trying to hold a graduate seminar with?

    Richard M. Nixon ‏@ dick_nixon 2h2 hours ago
    [email protected] chrislhayes She is the former deputy campaign manager for “Carly for President.” Was LaRouche unavailable?

  93. 93.

    Mnemosyne

    @Baud:

    I think he was more emotionally abusive towards Yoko, but he also got some intense therapy to work on it (which was one of the reasons he became the stay-at-home dad) and he was a much better person after that.

  97. 97.

    Baud

    @debbie: Right. It’ll be morbidly interesting to see how the Trump-Putin-Netanyahu dynamic plays out. Not really any good guys to root for, however.

  98. 98.

    Miss Bianca

    @Chip Daniels: “yeah,plenty of leftist men are jerks. And plenty of leftist women are racists”.

    Notice you can’t even use the word “sexist” – as in, “leftist men can be jerks specifically about women“.

    And “you don’t want another circular firing squad”? or, “I don’t want to talk about the fact that leftist men can be sexist, so let’s shut up about it and move on”?

    What, you *don’t* think it’s at all relevant to the future of the Democratic party that leftist men might be sexist? Not at all? Really?

  99. 99.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Baud:

    Now that I’ve watched most of the Democrat men (and Bernie Sanders) bash Hillary post-election

    I think emphasized bit of text is what bothered Billin.

  103. 103.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @raven:

    Jeez, that seems like a long time for lab results to come back! But asking for cookies is always a good sign. Hope she sleeps well, and that the biopsy or whatever it is comes back negative.

  114. 114.

    Mnemosyne

    @Chip Daniels:

    I suspect that, like me, Calavera is getting a little tired of having men on the left rant about what a horrible, uniquely evil person Hillary Clinton is and how she totally would never have been able to run if Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Donna Brazile hadn’t cleared the way and prevented anyone else from running.

    Basically, I want to tell them that when every person working against you in your conspiracy theory is a woman, a pattern starts to become clear, and it ain’t that you’re a person who is fine with women being in power.

    After the election in 2008, I did take some time to examine some of my racial assumptions and prejudices because I realized that Obama was brushing up against some of them in ways I was not fully conscious of. I would love it if men on the left would take some time to similarly examine their own subconscious and unconscious misogyny and how it may have inadvertently led us to this point, but unfortunately, I don’t see that happening.

  117. 117.

    germy

    @Baud:

    I thought Lennon beat on Ono.

    He beat his first wife. I think if he’d tried it with Ono, he wouldn’t have made it to 1980.

  118. 118.

    Chip Daniels

    @Mnemosyne:

    Calavera is getting a little tired of having men on the left rant about what a horrible, uniquely evil person Hillary Clinton is

    Just her?
    Goddamn, lady, join the line. I am sick of it as well.

    I’m also sick of the whole fixation on the tender snowflake WWC whose irrational hatred of Obama can never be called by its true name.

    I’m sick of the media, the tire swinging, watergun shooting, vapid Tiger beat on the Potomac chorus line.

    I’m sick of the Bernieorbusters, of the “Not a Dimes Worth of Difference” crowd.

    I’m sick of a whole lotta things.

    But I know which way to point my gun, and it isn’t to my left.

  121. 121.

    germy

    @Mnemosyne:

    I think he was more emotionally abusive towards Yoko

    I think the abuse was a two-way street. She isolated him, wouldn’t allow him to see friends, isolated him from family in England.

  122. 122.

    Baud

    @divF: Nw tht ‘v wtchd mst f th Dmcrt mn (nd Brn Sndrs) bsh Hllry pst-lctn, ‘m cnvncd th lft hs sxsm prblm.

    (It’s easier to use “Democrat”)

  123. 123.

    NobodySpecial

    I think (and the numbers will show, I’m sure) that the problem with sexist Democrat*IC* men are pretty much overblown. As has been noted, the Democratic vote for Hillary was 89-8. Down slightly, but not to the point where we should be saying ‘most’. Further, critiquing a campaign != sexism, especially when that campaign lost to a historically bad candidate.

    Are there some? Sure. Are they all pervasive? Doubtful.

    PS saving two letters in a tweet much under the 140 character limit does not help your criticism from my end. YMMV.

  124. 124.

    divF

    @Baud: Yep, that works. But come on, the additional c wouldn’t have killed you.

    ETA: I’d be surprised if this (removing the vowels, I mean) wasn’t actually a thing somewhere in the twitterverse.

  129. 129.

    Adam L Silverman

    @JPL:@Corner Stone: I read the story. Parts make little sense. For instance Russia’s attempt, or the attempt to get Russia, to delay the vote till after Christmas. Russia is one of the five permanent UNSC members. It has veto power. It could have vetoed the damn thing if it wanted to, so why the need for a delay if they can just veto it.

    I’m also fascinated by Netanyahu telling New Zealand that if they went through with reintroducing and supporting the resolution it would be taken as an act of war by the Israelis. Exactly what is Bibi planning on doing, overflying 1/2 the planet to bomb something in Christchurch?

    What Netanyahu is doing is leveraging this to secure his position with his coalition. It will play really well in Israel. It will play really well with most of the professional Jewish Americans – the pundits and commentators and the folks running the big Jewish American organizations and among the minority of Jewish Americans that are politically conservative. That’s it for what Bibi is doing in regard to this. That’s his audience. He has no other one. It’ll be used to direct attention from the coming criminal charges and from the fact that Israel appears to be preparing for another invasion of/operation against Lebanon.

    What Bibi, those supporting him, and those in his coalition who are to his right politically and religiously fail to understand is that given the actual regional strategic reality in the Middle East, especially the Levant, Israel is no longer important even as a client. It is just one more problem set to be managed. Netanyahu has now reduced his friends, for lack of a better term, to the Republican Party in the US. Not the US as a whole, just the GOP. That’s not going to get him very far.

  130. 130.

    Mary G

    I am not sure that Jennifer Rubin wasn’t kidnapped and replaced by a doppelganger liberal impersonator. She has media resolutions for 2017:

    9. TV cable news producers need to be held responsible for their choices. CNN put on hours of uncritical, live coverage of Trump rallies, giving him a huge advantage in the primaries. CNN also put on air dishonest partisans like Corey Lewandowski who regularly dissembled. This was inexcusable. Fox News allows Hannity, O’Reilly and Tucker Carlson to carry the Fox logo, which should be reserved for real news shows.

    John is on fire on Twitter about WV and the painkiller epidemic fueled by pharma greed.

  131. 131.

    fuckwit

    @Chip Daniels: the left also has a race problem. those occupy kids were hella white. the berniebots were too.

    i have been to lefty activist events in the center of OAKLAND where women were in most leadership positions but there was not a single person of color in attendance.

    sexism, racism, homophobia, are going to take a lot of work to eiminate

  132. 132.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Major Major Major Major:

    “Democrat” is a noun, not an adjective. Using it as an adjective grates on the ear, and is offensive to many of us.

    It’s not unlike the distinction between “Jew” and “Jewish.”

  134. 134.

    Corner Stone

    HRC was a full throated advocate for continuing Obama’s legacy and positions. I don’t know how this helps anything at all.

  136. 136.

    Anya

    I don’t understand how saying he could’ve won against Trump is sexist or bashing. Everyone knows Hillary was sabotaged. To this day, I tear up every time I see her picture. She had to face the FBI, media, fake news, Putin and Wikileaks. This was unprecedented. I think POTUS has acknowledged this. And more than anyone (not including the Clinton family) he was invested in Hillary’s win. I don’t know why some of you are focusing on manufacturing a feud when we have bigger issues to deal with.

  137. 137.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Mary G: This was inexcusable. Fox News allows Hannity, O’Reilly and Tucker Carlson to carry the Fox logo, which should be reserved for real news shows.

    I’ll welcome anyone to our side in the Great Fight, but I do remember that Ms Rubin was happy with these gents and their employers when they were helping sell the Iraq War, and doing so long after it failed.

  139. 139.

    Major Major Major Major

    @SiubhanDuinne: @Baud: I have actually used this exact analogy before explaining the difference to people, which gets back to what i said, which is that most people aren’t aware of it. It’s subtle and widespread enough that even politically engaged people might think it’s merely a stylistic choice and not name calling. I’ve never seen a politician jump in and correct somebody on it for example.

    Unrelatedly, there is absolutely a sexist double standard in the amount of purity and competency people expected from Hillary vs say Biden.

  140. 140.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Anya: Democrats appear to be in full circular firing squad mode. I’ll opt out. I need energy to resist Trump for the next four years.

  141. 141.

    Chip Daniels

    @fuckwit:
    True that, I’ve seen all that with my own eyes.
    I just think its better to assemble a coalition with the parts and pieces you have, rather than what you wish you did.

    Because really, if the Left excommunicated everyone who had some sort of defect wrt racism, misogyny, anti Semitism, homophobia, and all the other assorted injustices, we would hold our meetings at the corner booth at Denny’s, with room left over.

  143. 143.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Anya: I think POTUS has acknowledged this. And more than anyone (not including the Clinton family) he was invested in Hillary’s win.

    thank you. He, and Michelle, left it all on the field, he did everything he could to help her overcome her flaws, the ones that weren’t her fault, the ones that shouldn’t have mattered, and the ones that were self-inflicted. It wasn’t his idea to never speak in a UAW hall in Michigan. He didn’t tell Robby Mook to spend more money in Omaha (chasing one electoral vote) than in Milwaukee (which still leaves PA and FL where they poured in everything they had and still lost so… /shrug emoji/)

  144. 144.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Anya: according to a thing I read on Kos, the way people are reporting the interview is kind of wrong too, that obama was much more measured than the headlines would have you think.

    During his press conference his loudest denunciation was of the press.

    ETA: @Baud: I think it’s something only older political junkies know about.

  146. 146.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Unrelatedly, there is absolutely a sexist double standard in the amount of purity and competency people expected from Hillary vs say Biden.

    I think there’s a pretty strong relationship there.

  147. 147.

    Capri

    Republican men are actively trying to take away access to health care and make abortion illegal. Perhaps they say nice things about individual women. Maybe not, it doesn’t matter. For the love of Pete, let’s keep our eye on the ball.

  148. 148.

    Another Scott

    @VincentN: That was my take on the whole discussion as well – a valedictory of Obama’s political career, how he learned from losing, etc., etc. I don’t think he was dissing Hillary when he said:

    OBAMA: Look, you know, I think that Hillary Clinton performed wonderfully under really tough circumstances. I’ve said this publicly, I’ll repeat it. I think there was a double standard with her. For whatever reason, there’s been a longstanding difficulty in her relationship with the press that meant her flaws were wildly amplified relative to…

    AXELROD: But leaving that aside…

    OBAMA: But — but — well, the reason I bring this up is because we’ve both been in campaigns. If you think you’re winning, then you have a tendency, just like in sports, maybe to play it safer.

    And the economy has been improving. There is a sense, obviously, that some communities have been left behind from the recovery and people feeling anxious about that. But if she was looking at the campaign and saying OK, I’m winning right now, and her economic agenda was in fact very progressive. But…

    (CROSSTALK)

    OBAMA: No, you’re right, not well understood. But understandably, I think she looked and said well, given my opponent and the things he’s saying and what he’s doing, we should focus on that.

    In retrospect, we can all be Monday morning quarterbacks. Here’s what I — here’s what I would say prospectively, is that the Democratic agenda is better for all working people. This division that’s been put out there between white working class versus black working class or Latino working class — look, an agenda of raising minimum wage, rebuilding our infrastructure, you know…

    It seems clear to me that: 1) He thought she ran a great campaign, especially under trying circumstances. 2) Given the information she had at the time it made sense for her to run the campaign the way she did. 3) We all know that she lost. Everyone can play quarterback on why that happened, but what does that mean going forward? Then, he starts talking about what he thinks could be done moving forward – whoever he or she is.

    People are spinning this into “Obama disrespecting Hillary” mostly to sell clicks.

    IMHO.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  149. 149.

    Baud

    @Major Major Major Major:

    the way people are reporting the interview is kind of wrong too, that obama was much more measured than the headlines would have you think.

    That’s been how it’s been for EIGHT YEARS!!! I’m not the least bit surprised, except that so many people keep falling for it.

  150. 150.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @BillinGlendaleCA: I swear I saw a poll a few months back, I think in September, showing Bubba had a higher approval rating with Sanders supporters than Hillary– but I’ve tried to find it and can’t.

  151. 151.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @geg6: If you continue reading though the thread, I don’t think you may still find an issue with my comment. That said, I’m often mistaken for a female. I’m 5’4″ and hence have a higher pitched voice and have ear and facial piercings.

  155. 155.

    Lizzy L

    @Chip Daniels:

    But I know which way to point my gun, and it isn’t to my left.

    THIS.

    We have got to stop tearing at each other. We need our energy, and we need to recognize our friends.

  156. 156.

    zhena gogolia

    I guess nobody’s watching the Kennedy Center Honors? Obama looks depressed. I enjoyed seeing Yuja Wang.

  157. 157.

    Mary G

    Not going to link to it, but the “alt-right’ is already at war with itself. One of them told another not to talk about the “Jewish Question” and the other called him a cuck, and they threw that guy out of the inaugural “Deploraball” and replaced him with Milo The Useful Token (because he’s gay and Jewish) and tweets started flying. I still think Republican incompetence is going to be our salvation in the end.

  158. 158.

    Mnemosyne

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I’m basically discounting the reports about what Obama supposedly said that was Hillary-bashing because what I read was pretty anodyne and seemed, frankly, to be a bit of ego-stroking directed at Axelrod.

    But, yeah, the complaints that Obama was “mean” to Hillary seem to have about as much basis as the claims that Donna Brazile “bashed” Obama in her recent interview.

  161. 161.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Lizzy L: I always say bad policies are worth interrogating but not at the expense of greater goals. Right now is an okay time for reflecting on sexism in our own ranks though I think.

    Look, there has to be a way to have this conversation that doesn’t turn into a relitigation of the primaries.

  162. 162.

    Irony Abounds

    @Mnemosyne: “I suspect that, like me, Calavera is getting a little tired of having men on the left rant about what a horrible, uniquely evil person Hillary Clinton is and how she totally would never have been able to run if Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Donna Brazile hadn’t cleared the way and prevented anyone else from running”

    Exaggerate much? There are men on the left “ranting” about what a “horrible, uniquely evil person Hillary Clinton is?” Really? Name some names, with quotes that include references to her being “horrible” or “uniquely evil” I’d love to see them. Jesus Christ, if you want people to take you seriously stop with the nuclear hyperbole. Are there sexist men who are otherwise liberal? Of course there are, but even the trogs on the right rarely called Hillary “uniquely evil” (they hate her guts, but didn’t think she was any worse than Obama). I am far more accurate in saying there are women on the left who paint a picture of Saint Hillary, a uniquely flawless women who has never made a mistake, never acted in her self interest, ran an impeccable campaign and who doesn’t deserve any criticism at all. In fact, anyone who criticizes her in the slightest fashion is an evil sexist pig who should be shunned by all.

  165. 165.

    Mnemosyne

    @Another Scott:

    I will try to adopt my favorite president’s words as my own: “In retrospect, we can all be Monday morning quarterbacks.”

    I know Axelrod has a weird beef with Hillary that he just can’t quit, so I wonder if at least some of the ire is being directed at Axelrod and people are misinterpreting it as being directed at Obama.

  166. 166.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Look, there has to be a way to have this conversation that doesn’t turn into a relitigation of the primaries.

    Considering what’s been going on here for almost the past two months, you’re very optimistic.

  167. 167.

    geg6

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    Your comment implied that you do not agree with her point. If that’s incorrect, sorry.

    Being of diminutive height and having piercings will never give you an iota of insight as to what it is like to live with a vagina. Much as I cannot ever live in the skin of a person of color. I try to empathize, but I’ll never have enough insight to manage it.

  168. 168.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Netanyahu has now reduced his friends, for lack of a better term, to the Republican Party in the US.

    I think the incoming Senate Minority Leader would disagree with you.

  171. 171.

    tobie

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    He didn’t tell Robby Mook to spend more money in Omaha (chasing one electoral vote) than in Milwaukee (which still leaves PA and FL where they poured in everything they had and still lost so… /shrug emoji/)

    I’m reminded that Nate Silver said that if the 70,000 votes that pushed Trump over the edge in PA, WI, and MI had gone HRC’s way, we’d all be saying what a brilliant campaign she ran. I dunno if that’s true but I do know that I volunteered for Kerry, Obama twice and HRC in rural PA, and the lists we had this year of the doors to knock on was the best I’ve seen. Tons of money and effort were spent there. The depths of Hillary-hate that the media, Comey, Wikileaks, GOP operatives, Russians, etc. were able to work up, though, just became insurmountable. It was a feeding frenzy in rural America. Ugliest thing I’ve ever seen.

  172. 172.

    Karla

    @Mnemosyne: I subscribe to Axelrod’s “The Axe Files” podcast, but his repeated attempts, across multiple interviews, over months, to draw out negative comments about Hillary Clinton make me hesitate every time I consider listening to an episode.

  173. 173.

    geg6

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I agree. Racism on the left should also be examined. These are issues that are literally crippling us as a party and a nation. If we can’t examine all of the major causes of the situation we are currently in, we will never recover and thrive. To my mind, the election just past has showed us that racism and sexism are the most powerful forces in American politics. We ignore that to our eternal peril.

  174. 174.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @geg6: The dude took issue with the fact that she said that most Democratic men had a sexism problem. That was all. Not that some or many did.

  175. 175.

    Mnemosyne

    @Irony Abounds:

    Commenter goblue72 told me right here on this website that my vagina is not magic so I should stop talking about women’s issues. And though it seemed for a while that the fever was dying down, Applejinx popped up again a couple of days ago to tell us that Hillary is exactly like Margaret Thatcher, but she covers it up better. And those are the reasonably normal commenters, not the outright trolls like reggie mantle and Jonathan Holland Bechnel.

    Seriously. Google (site:balloon-juice.com “your vagina is not magic”) and then come back and tell me I imagined the whole thing. Or, more likely, make excuses for the dude who said that to me and assure me that he doesn’t really mean it when he says shit like that and then whines about how mean Democrats are to not let “pro-life” politicians set our abortion policy.

  177. 177.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Gin & Tonic: Fine, the Republican Party and Senator Schumer. Senator Feinstein who is the most senior, in terms of service, Jewish American Senator has already come out in support of the abstention. As did Senator Leahy who is the current longest serving senator on either side of the aisle.

  178. 178.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @tobie: I got the impression, pre-election, that the campaign was run pretty well and that they’d learned the lessons from 2008. Now I hear it was the worst run campaign in history.

  179. 179.

    geg6

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    In my experience, most men of all political shades have a sexism issue. Whether they know they do or not is immaterial. I agree with her completely. Of course, we’re just women. What do we know about it, amirite?

  181. 181.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @BillinGlendaleCA: FWIW, I think the campaign followed a very good model and used the most sophisticated data analysis, etc., available. I think that Trump is sui generis and doing everything right was not enough.

  182. 182.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Mnemosyne: And those are the reasonably normal commenters

    I challenge your characterization of GoBlue (who I sometimes think may actually be delusional, not just a very angry, poo-flinging poseur) and Applejinx (who has gone into TMI-level detail about various emotional issues, but I’m not convinced he’s telling the truth about that, either) as “reasonably normal”.

  183. 183.

    Dexter

    In other news PEOTUS is referencing himself in 2nd person. Everything is so OK with this man.

    Donald J. TrumpVerified account
    ‏@realDonaldTrump
    The U.S. Consumer Confidence Index for December surged nearly four points to 113.7, THE HIGHEST LEVEL IN MORE THAN 15 YEARS! Thanks Donald!

  184. 184.

    Major Major Major Major

    @geg6:
    Agreed. After the 2008 election I made sure to reexamine what I’d experienced following Hillary, and it made me a better and less sexist person. This year was a perfect storm of hate.

    @NobodySpecial: I copied and pasted it into twitter. Twitter definitely thinks it’s 140.

    You can look through her timeline (or the fact that she ‘subtly’ slams Bernie for not being a dem, or the fact that Howard fucking Dean replied to her) to see she isn’t a troll.

  185. 185.

    dnfree

    Every losing candidate gets critiqued, regardless of gender. On the Democratic side, both Al Gore and John Kerry were critiqued extensively. Romney was critiqued in 2012. It’s traditional. Unless they’re critiquing her BECAUSE of her gender, it’s just normal. What would not be normal would be to spare her the analysis because maybe her feelings would be hurt.

    Perhaps this tweeter is trying to divide the “Democrat” party?

  187. 187.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Dexter: they need to check which phone that comes from, his or the one Ivanka tweets as him from. He’d never encourage the unwashed to use his first name.

  189. 189.

    tobie

    @BillinGlendaleCA: The weekend before the election they broke ALL records for total number of doors knocked on in PA. Volunteers were being turned away in New York because there wasn’t a seat left on the campaign buses to Philadelphia and the ‘burbs. But, yeah, we’re now told it was the worst campaign ever. Shit, we forget how freaked out we were after Obama’s first debate against Romney, his poor convention speech in 2012, and his gaffes (‘didn’t build this,’ ‘clinging to God and guns’) but of course all that pales in comparison to ‘basket of deplorables,’ the worst gaffe uttered in America history or something like that.

  190. 190.

    Mnemosyne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I think it depends on one’s groups, too. Balloon-Juice has managed to stay pretty close to 50/50 in gender with commenters because a majority of the guys who comment here (present company included, of course) try not to be sexist and are open to being corrected when they stumble into it by mistake. That is definitely not the general run of liberal and lefty websites, in my experience.

  191. 191.

    magurakurin

    @Baud:

    me too. I think she tried to do a great thing. She asked everyone to check their racial, gender and sexual bias at the door and come together to work for the common good. Yes, she made some mistakes and she had a lot against her…some her own fault but the vast majority were obstacles placed in her path unfairly. It sucks that she lost, but I’m proud of what she tried to do. And in spite of it all, she lost by only a very, very narrow margin. I think the elements of the Democratic Party and the Left that are going through massive existential angst are making a mistake. This was a squeaker and not a blow out by any margin. Shitgibbon will be hugely unpopular in short order. Stronger Together still applies. Everyone would be better served to stop refighting the primary and over analyzing the loss.

    Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more.

    and…the hard shit stirrers who push the sniping and infighting…I’d wager donuts to dollars (since donuts cost more than a dollar now) that they are paid by someone to do so. Beware, as they walk among us.

  193. 193.

    Irony Abounds

    @Mnemosyne: I do not doubt your version of what goblue 72 said, or that it was an awful sexist thing to say, and if I had seen it I would have said so. Don’t quite see how that justifies citing incredibly awful statements about Hillary that I seriously doubt were ever made by men on the left to support the OP’s point. The truth of the matter is that Trump is such an unthinkable piece of shit that any candidate who lost to him, no matter the candidate’s sex, race or religion, would be subject to a torrent of criticism just because we all find it so unbelievable that such a lying stupid fuck won.

  194. 194.

    Mnemosyne

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I think Applejinx is posting in good faith, but I will say with love in my heart that I think he needs some therapy to deal with his issues with powerful women (full disclosure: I’ve had a lot of therapy myself, and see no shame in admitting I needed it).

    Goblue72 has been around for quite a while and wasn’t always 100 percent a dick, but he might need some therapy as well.

  195. 195.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @tobie: From the beginning, when Trump announced, I was worried, just a little bit. Here in California, we’ve been through this, twice. It’s the celebrity effect, and it really helps a candidate’s chances; maybe gives them an extra percentage point or two.

  197. 197.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Mnemosyne: That may well be true. I just don’t like the jumping on Billin for saying that he didn’t think that most Democratic men were bashing HRC. You have seen how pro-Hilz I have been over the past year; I still am. I think that she got caught up in a weird tsunami of hate. She made some moderate gaffes, but everyone does. People pointing out the errors that may have made a difference, when the margin is this small, is not bashing. Politicians saying that they could have won is politicians being themselves. If you and geg6 are seeing more than that I will certainly take that into account. I won’t, however, be passive-aggressively shat upon as others have tried.

  199. 199.

    geg6

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Just as charming as all the mansplaining going on in this thread.

    Which is proving her point rather nicely, I must say. But perhaps we are mistaken and it’s just economic anxiety.

  200. 200.

    Mnemosyne

    @dnfree:

    There are legitimate critiques to be made of Hillary’s campaign. There seems to be quite a variation in people’s experiences based on your state: tobie is reporting from PA that they were super organized, but we’ve heard from people in Florida that they seemed disorganized and didn’t have good information. Figuring out where those breakdowns happened will be very helpful.

    Relitigating the primaries is not helpful. People who claim that Biden or Obama or Sanders totally would have won are relitigating the primaries.

  201. 201.

    StringOnAStick

    I went to the OFA meeting tonight for the Denver metro area; OFA is going to be THE vehicle for opposition to the shitgibbon. The chief organizer said that President Obama’s call to them 2 weeks ago was all about how he’s going to be on it whthis group as soon as he is a private citizen again. Its all hands on deck time people, get involved with any group that is well organized, and to me, OFA is my choice for that reason alone.

  202. 202.

    Irony Abounds

    @geg6: Question: if a male disagrees with the premise or factual accuracy of the tweet, or your view of the subject, how does one note such disagreement in a way that would not constitute mansplaining?

  203. 203.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Mnemosyne:

    Relitigating the primaries is not helpful. People who claim that Biden or Obama or Sanders totally would have won are relitigating the primaries.

    Especially since Obama couldn’t run, Biden didn’t run, and Sanders lost.

  204. 204.

    magurakurin

    @Mnemosyne:

    but he might need some therapy as well.

    Willie: You know, I think I’ve turned a corner.
    Marcus: Yeah? You fucking petites now?
    Willie: No, I’m not talking about that. I beat the shit out of some kids today. But it was for a purpose. It made me feel good about myself. It was like I did something constructive with my life or something, I dunno, like I accomplished something.
    Marcus: You need many years of therapy. Many, many fuckin’ years of therapy.

  206. 206.

    Corner Stone

    @Mnemosyne:

    but we’ve heard from people in Florida that they seemed disorganized and didn’t have good information.

    I am pretty sure all those “reports” came from our good friend Another Holocene Human.
    There were conflicting reports from all over FL that things were being done as expected.

  207. 207.

    geg6

    @Mnemosyne:

    I worked my region of PA and it was even more organized and enthusiastic than 2012 (nothing will be the same as ’08; that was just magical). It wasn’t a loss here for lack of effort or planning.

  208. 208.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Omnes Omnibus: chapter two of the Troll Handbook clearly states the importance of occasionally engaging in non confrontational, even “light-hearted” or “jocular”, dialogue with regulars. Even NR’s been trying it recently.

  211. 211.

    Mnemosyne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    A lot of women — myself included — feel like we stifled ourselves about sexism during this election cycle because we didn’t want to rock the boat and have people tell us we were being oversensitive. Now we’re pointing out the ongoing post-election sexism and, sure enough, we’re being told that we’re being oversensitive.

    I understand why some people (including Bill) are suspicious of anyone who uses “Democrat” as an adjective, but it also feels like people are using it as an excuse to avoid examining her actual point.

    @Irony Abounds:

    As I said to OO above, I think it partly has to do with social circles. When you’re spending your day (as Calavera is) fighting with morons in the MSM and on Twitter who insist that Hillary was just a bad candidate and that’s why she lost, you too will start to feel like all Democratic men are sexist assholes. I don’t think that because I have a social circle here filled with Democratic men who are not assholes, but I’ve seen enough tweets and posts from the sexist assholes to understand why she would feel that way.

  212. 212.

    Corner Stone

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    so judging from this Chris Hayes got steam-rolled (again) by that ex-Fiorina aide he keeps insisting on trying to hold a graduate seminar with?

    Holy fuckballs. I was watching Bizarre Foods earlier but decided to catch the re-run of All In. Chris Hayes looks like he is trying to sweet talk her into the sack and is getting his fucking ass handed to him again and again.

  213. 213.

    geg6

    @Irony Abounds:

    I think a man should quit disagreeing and listen to what women say about it, much as I think white people should shut up about whether there is racism among white people and listen to the lived reality of people of color. In my experience, almost all men are completely blind to their sexism, whether it is a mild unconscious sexism or full blown misogyny. So listening is more important to overcoming it than saying anything at all.

  214. 214.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Corner Stone: As someone who is a native Floridian, allow me to adjust this for you.

    we’ve heard from that people in Florida that they seemed disorganized and don’tidn’t have good information

    The statement now accurately describes Floridians.

  216. 216.

    Karen

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    It’s not unlike the distinction between “Jew” and “Jewish.”

    I’m Jewish and for me it’s all about context. I saw I’m Jewish or a Jewish person. When I hear the word “Jew” I bristle, when it’s used in an slurrish way but most of the time, people don’t know any better. If when I explained how it feels to hear

    “Jew:” which has been used as a slur.
    :”Jew them down” which means they got a bargain on a deal.
    “I look like a little Jewboy” – which means a boy in a cap.

  218. 218.

    Corner Stone

    @Adam L Silverman: Sorry. That may or may not be true but every report of HRC campaign disorganization and chaos on this blog came from one commenter – AHH.
    Florida Man and Florida Woman may be all out of sorts in their general life but what AHH repeatedly kept saying here was how badly run the HRC campaign was.

  220. 220.

    Corner Stone

    I used to really enjoy the podcast Keeping It 1600. But I have come to hate all those self-serving useless assholes. STFU and go the fuck away.

  221. 221.

    Gin & Tonic

    @geg6: But the premise of the Tweet wasn’t that almost all men are blind to sexism, or that almost all Democratic men are somewhere on the sexism spectrum. The Tweet said that “most Democrat[ic] men” were “bash[ing] Hillary Clinton.” That’s a strong charge, for which it should be possible to produce counterexamples. It’s a statistical argument, not an emotional or moral one.

  222. 222.

    geg6

    @Mnemosyne:

    I have only met one man in my life who didn’t have a sexist bone in his body–never said or did a sexist thing in all the years I knew him and that was my dad. He loved strong women and cheered every advance. The men I surround myself with now are great guys, but they still have their sexist moments. I guess I notice it so much more because of how my dad was. I have to pint it out, gently, to my John regularly. He doesn’t mean to be sexist, but he’s unconscious of it sometimes and needs to be told. He’s cool with it, which is why I stay.

  224. 224.

    Mnemosyne

    @geg6:
    @Major Major Major Major:

    Thirded. It was hard for me to learn that I needed to shut up and listen when people of color were telling me about their lives, and I still slip sometimes, but I try.

    When we just finished an election cycle where the first major female presidential candidate lost on a technicality after having sexist shit thrown at her for two solid years, women who tell you that they’re still running into sexism from Democratic men probably aren’t making it up just for giggles.

  225. 225.

    divF

    @Adam L Silverman: My main exposure to Florida culture is through Carl Hiassen’s novels. I thought they were exaggerations, but what I have heard around here in this election season (from you and Ms. Cracker, among others) has made me reconsider that position.

  227. 227.

    Gin & Tonic

    @efgoldman: I tend, perhaps unfortunately, to be a “strictly logical” person. It’s my academic training and professional experience. If I say “most X are Y,” then I’ve previously gone to some pains to assure myself that I could produce statistics demonstrating that.

  230. 230.

    Mnemosyne

    @Gin & Tonic:

    And that’s where we come to the “social circles” thing again. Given Calavera’s job, I have no doubt that she runs into a lot of sexist men who are Democrats. Probably way more than you ever imagined existed. But the fact that you don’t know them doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

    If you want statistics, you could try looking at her Twitter feed and noting the number of commenters there who say sexist things. That will probably give you a better idea of why she’s saying this than quoting an abstract nationwide number to prove she’s wrong overall and therefore doesn’t actually deal with sexist assholes every day.

  232. 232.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Mnemosyne:

    I understand why some people (including Bill) are suspicious of anyone who uses “Democrat” as an adjective

    While that is true, that wasn’t my point. I don’t think that most Democratic Men are trashing HRC. There are some, maybe many; but not most.

  233. 233.

    Starfish

    @tobie: Really? A number of people have pointed out that their lists were garbage, and it did not seem like any effort was made to correct those lists.

  234. 234.

    Corner Stone

    @Gin & Tonic:

    That’s a strong charge, for which it should be possible to produce counterexamples. It’s a statistical argument, not an emotional or moral one.

    There are blers that have a bler aspect to their lives. But certainly we can find blers that have an abler experience. Oh well, it’s a statistical argument, not an emotional or moral one.

    It just sounds stupid when you look at what you are arguing.

  235. 235.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @geg6: Can I ask why you chose to get passive-aggressive with me? I’ll admit that I let my mom make coffee for breakfast when I am at home. I could do it myself, but she has a whole mom thing going and seems disappoint when I do it. This one isn’t male/female, but rather mother and son.

  236. 236.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Mnemosyne: I don’t doubt that she deals with sexist assholes every day. But when she says she watched most Democratic men bashing Hillary, I do doubt that. That’s all. As I said to efg, I prefer actual evidence when a statistical argument is made.

    With that, I’m out.

  237. 237.

    Mnemosyne

    @socraticsilence:

    I’m making the point that a lot of the people who claimed they couldn’t possibly vote for Hillary based on policy happily voted for Obama even though he had the exact same policies.

    Hillary explicitly ran as Obama’s third term, with a strong assist from both President and Mrs. Obama, and those four Rust Belt states that had voted for Obama said, “Nope!” I don’t think a relative lack of personal charisma really explains it, or at least doesn’t explain it nearly as well as sexism (and racism) does.

  238. 238.

    Starfish

    @Gin & Tonic: Exactly how much evidence would be enough? What evidence do you consider valid? And how much are you paying a lady to aggregate this evidence for you?

  241. 241.

    geg6

    @efgoldman:

    Perhaps, but there is no evidence to support that. His brothers, sister and closest friends and co-workers at the steel mill all noted that my dad would never hear any sexist crap without jumping all over whoever said it. He had four daughters who all turned out strong and confident. He was this way from childhood through WWII and all through his married life. He supported Roe when it was decided (and against my Catholic mother’s wishes) and led a faction in his union local that worked to pass the ERA. He was a very unusual man, especially for his time and place. I went to him first when I was raped as a teenager, not my mom, because I knew he would be more understanding and supportive. He was very special.

  242. 242.

    Mnemosyne

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    Right, but I’ll bet that most of the Democratic men that Calavera is currently encountering are sexist assholes. And trying to claim that not all Democratic men are like the ones she meets every day is a lame excuse. If she’s not talking about you, she’s not talking about you.

  243. 243.

    Mnemosyne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Everyone’s tired of me thumping on voter suppression, especially when I bring it up to counter claims that Hillary was the worstest candidate ever, which is why she got 2.9 million more votes than Comrade Trump.

    Seriously, though, if you know of a local voter ID group in WI that we should all be donating to, let us know.

  244. 244.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Starfish: Has there ever been a campaign where volunteers and staffers didn’t have complaints about one thing or another? You only hear about the losing ones. Like how you rarely hear about locker room tensions plaguing winning teams…

  245. 245.

    Jeffro

    What does it mean when right-wingers on Twitter are saying that accepting Joseph and Mary as refugees is different because…wait for it…they “didn’t cross a border” to get back to Bethlehem?? This somehow absolves them from accepting refugees from another country?

  246. 246.

    geg6

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Because your comments seem to imply that what she has experienced, based on what she tweeted, was not legitimate. You seemed to be dismissing her experience. Which happens a lot when women talk about their experiences. In my experience, most men, even those who think they are enlightened, have sexist attitudes whether they recognize it or not and whether it is obvious or not. I don’t think there is any doubt about that. But that’s my 58 years of experience talking. Apparently, unless I have completed a decades long longitudinal study of the matter with charts and graphs, some people here do not consider my reality to be legitimate (this line is not aimed at you).

  249. 249.

    tobie

    @Starfish: That was not my experience in PA. The lists I was given were good; the local organizer made it clear whether I was knocking on the doors of regular Dem voters or sporadic Dem voters; and every household was supposed to get two passes/visits in the ten days leading up to the election. Friends of mine who volunteered in greater Philadelphia had similar things to report. I can’t speak for what the campaign was like in the western part of the state but I can compare what my corner looked like in 2004, 2008, 2012, and 2016. I was confident going into election night but also alarmed at what I had seen: waves of Trump placards and one display of HRC hanging in effigy on someone’s lawn. I never thought I’d see something like that in a campaign.

  254. 254.

    geg6

    @tobie:

    My experience here in the Pittsburgh region was the same as yours. Hillary won Pittsburgh with bigger numbers than Obama did.

  256. 256.

    MomSense

    @Mnemosyne:

    I’m not tired of you thumping on voter suppression. It’s an outrage that we can’t unify in protecting our right to vote. The biggest reason Insupport Tom Perez for DNC Chair is because he wants to put voting rights at the forefront. The focus has to be securing the right to vote and have your vote counted.

  257. 257.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @geg6: You already told me that I can’t address it. Actually, it shows how I can be an asshole. There is a difference.

    ETA: I am gone.

  259. 259.

    Yarrow

    @MomSense:

    The biggest reason Insupport Tom Perez for DNC Chair is because he wants to put voting rights at the forefront.

    I haven’t followed the DNC chair competition very closely. I’m glad to hear that voting rights is important for Perez. I don’t know much about him but have liked the few interviews I’ve seen. I think someone who can make it their full time job is probably essential. To me, focusing on voting rights is next because if people can’t vote then it’s much harder to fight what’s coming.

  265. 265.

    geg6

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    You are perfectly free to address anything you wish. You seem to have a problem when everybody doesn’t agree with you. I think some of that listening stuff might come in handy for you. The more so since you seem so hostile to the idea.

  266. 266.

    ruemara

    @delk: Great to see! I’m glad it’s working out.

    The left has a sexism, racism, classism and cognitive bias problem, nearly as bad as the right. It’s just not as obvious because in the end, they are for largely decent things. Which makes them just as unlikely to consider that they have a problem and just as angry when you say there is a problem.

  267. 267.

    Smedley the uncertain

    @Renie: This isn’t the first time. A bunch of Paladino racist e-mails popped up during his run for Governor. He’s a Trumper, having jaw-boned (threatened ) the Upstate/Western NY congressional delegation in to supporting Hair Furor…

  268. 268.

    Yarrow

    So there was a bomb scare due to an abandoned bag at Trump Tower today.

    Trump Tower, the site of President-elect Donald Trump’s home, business and transition offices in New York City, was partially evacuated Tuesday after the discovery of a suspicious package that police later said did not pose a threat.

    Trump, who is spending the holidays at his Mar-a-Lago estate in Palm Beach, Fla., was not present at the time.

    The New York Police Department bomb squad responded to reports of the package in the building of the lobby in midtown Manhattan “out of an abundance of caution,” spokesman J. Peter Donald said on Twitter. Police soon determined it was bag of children’s toys and “nothing life-threatening,” another department spokesman said. An “all clear” was given shortly after 5 p.m.

    I can’t imagine how difficult this is going to be going forward. What about people who live there that order from Amazon or anywhere else? Do all packages have to be searched before going in? What about food for the restaurant? It’s a big building and they probably get a lot of deliveries. Seems like it would be really vulnerable going forward. Pretty easy to figure out how to get around the security at some point.

  269. 269.

    leeleeFl

    @Chip Daniels: THIS! X a million! We are doing exactly what the Enemy wants us to do. Sniping at each other like starving mutts while they loot the granaries and rape the wimmen folks. F-ck this noise already! We have a Monster to slay. His name is Donald and we have to keep him and his butt licks from destroying all the decent things this Country offers. Pity party over. Get to work.

  270. 270.

    Mary G

    I agree with Bill and Omnes that the word “most” in the tweet is a bit of an overreach. That said, if she spends a lot of time on twitter she is almost certainly swimming in a sea of sexism, because it seems to me in my subjective experience that even Democrats feel it’s OK to be a pig on twitter to women for whatever reason. I don’t think any of the men on this blog are sexists.

  271. 271.

    Mnemosyne

    @leeleeFl:

    I think we are (finally, thank god) in the last stages of figuring out WTF just happened. I’m still pretty concerned that the political establishment — which are the kind of people Calavera deals with — still thinks that the problem was that we weren’t nice enough to white men and now Democrats have to downplay everyone else’s concerns and cater to them. And I’m concerned that the Democratic establishment is blind to their own sexism. That’s a potential problem moving forward that should probably be openly discussed without people getting all bent out of shape when someone in the media points out that she’s dealing with a lot of sexist Democrats right now.

  272. 272.

    Elizabeth

    Did anyone read the threaded responses-she has ample reason for her views on it.

    Sure, you can say #NotAllDemocraticMen but frankly, in her case, she sees it constantly. Enough so that there is a real reason to view that most Democratic men are sexist to some extent or another.

  274. 274.

    SFBayAreaGal

    @efgoldman: I remember the 70s Oakland Athletics. I loved watching them play. I was one happy teenage girl when they were in the World Series three times in a row. They were my rebel team.

  277. 277.

    Bupalos

    This is crap. SOCIETY has a sexism problem, and so sure “democrat men” (as well as “democrat women”) have some share of that problem as well.

    But I’m not jumping on anyone who says they would have won, and saying so has little to do with gender. Clinton was a bad candidate for this particular cycle and moment. She still should have won without a moronic media environment, and kind of did win. But by perception she was the epitome of a machine candidate, and there is nothing worse in politics than the perception of being personally ambitious for power combined with stage-managed disingenuous. The portrait of her from SNL is (without being generally recognized as such) as politically devastating as its possible to be, much worse than that of trump. That perception has some basis in sexism, but much more in her wooden public personality (similar to Romney) and shifting milquetoast focus group positions.

    Clinton lost a seemingly unlosable race because of a mindboggling confluence of reasons and events. But ultimately what unlocked the door for trump was that a candidate who was personally appalling on so many levels was opposed by someone who I don’t think people could imagine being honestly appalled. At least she had 0 capacity to emote it. It was much easier to imagine her being politically delighted by the p-grabbing thing for instance than sharing the nausea most of us felt. Its maybe too bad that we demand a credible act from our politicians, that we demand the “she’s just like us and personally cares about us” thing, but we do. I’m pretty sure biden or Obama or warren could have sufficientlg bridged that gap with ease. Interestingly, I’m not at all sure sanders could have, I think he might have done even worse.

  279. 279.

    Mnemosyne

    @Bupalos:

    It’s too late right now to re-litigate the whole thread, but I will agree with you that the SNL portrayal of Hillary hurt a lot more than it helped. I don’t think Kate MacKinnon realized that until it was much too late, unfortunately. The current writing staff seems pretty anti-liberal overall, so now I’m curious to see if there will be a post-election purge at Lorne Michaels’ whim.

  280. 280.

    fuckwit

    @Omnes Omnibus: david gerrold put it succinctly many decades ago. the difference is nouns or adjectives.

    when you make someone a noun, it’s an epithet, a slur, you take away their humanity.

    as an adjective, it’s just an adjective. they are many things, and this is just one descriptive adjective.

  281. 281.

    Mike E

    This thread is WIN, for everything that b-j is (good, bad or troll)… there oughta be an xkcd number or something for quick reference/edification

  283. 283.

    PIGL

    @Adam L Silverman: That’s a bleak view of Israel’s rapidly weakening position — a view which I have been developing for many years now without anything like your expertise to substantiate it. I can’t say I’m thrilled.

  284. 284.

    Groucho48

    I just skimmed this thread, but to get a bit of an idea of left wing attitudes in the 60’s, read, on the one hand, Been Down So Long It Looks Up To Me, or, heck, the Electric Kool -Aid Acid Test and on the other hand, any of several Marge Piercy novels covering the same time span. The hippies/anti-war activists were as sexist a group as there was.

  285. 285.

    Applejinx

    @Mnemosyne:

    Applejinx popped up again a couple of days ago to tell us that Hillary is exactly like Margaret Thatcher, but she covers it up better.

    Hey, I did vote for her anyway, and even snowjobbed myself into thinking that was a good thing, AND got my BernieOrBuster RW-meme-repeating brother to also flip and vote for her. What more do you want from me? I would even do it again because Trump is worse and the Republicans are worse than Trump.

  286. 286.

    Applejinx

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    I got the impression, pre-election, that the campaign was run pretty well and that they’d learned the lessons from 2008. Now I hear it was the worst run campaign in history.

    For me, I had to say that to flip my brother and others who were bailing off the sinking ship. If I knew what I learned at the end there, which was that the Democratic Party was not even bothering to canvas gettable voters they didn’t like, I would have had to outright lie. At the time I was telling people the campaign had learned sooooo much and it was gonna be soooo awesome, I didn’t know I was lying.

    It would’ve been ten times harder to deliver the votes I _did_ deliver for Hillary Clinton if I’d been fully aware of how arrogant and disconnected she and her operation were.

  287. 287.

    Groucho48

    “they were in love with apocalypse, like all men, more in love with myths than with any woman.”

    “But I think we often settle for sex when we want love. And we often want love when we need something else, like a good job or a chance to go back to school.”

    “Whenever the balance of power was unequal, there was a driver and a driven. Power was the lethal vice, the turn-on with evil built into it, because it required a victim to manifest itself. Power implied subject and object. They needed some way to recognize (for everyone to recognize) that everybody was a subject.”

    I will choose what enters me, what becomes flesh of my flesh. Without choice, no politics, no ethics lives. I am not your cornfield, not your uranium mine, not your calf for fattening, not your cow for milking. You may not use me as your factory. Priests and legislators do not hold shares in my womb or my mind. If I give it to you, I want it back. My life is a non-negotiable demand.

  288. 288.

    Keith G

    I had been looking forward to voting for Hillary for president since the late 1990s. Vote I did…and contribute more than to any other campaign.

    Hillary lost. Part of the reason Hillary lost was her Hillary-ness, something that I thought/hoped she would be wise enough to account for and correct.

    Yes, Comey hurt a lot. Part of the reason it hurt so much is that many voters still had not been won over by the Hillary campaign. Their support, if existent, was soft. Well…the point is….one can honestly note the mistakes made by Hillary and her campaign without sexism being an issue. That honesty is important if we plan on moving ahead an mount better campaigns in the future.

  289. 289.

    Keith G

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    I got the impression, pre-election, that the campaign was run pretty well and that they’d learned the lessons from 2008. Now I hear it was the worst run campaign in history.

    I heard many comments from smart and experienced folks (boldface name types) that pointed out on going flaws with the campaign. I think a lot got papered over by the fragrance of inevitability. Some folks (here) were called concern trolls and told to STFU.

    Some bubbles are not tiny.

  290. 290.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    For someone with a lot of baggage and not exactly a natural politician Hillary did amazingly well going by the popular vote. She won that election and it’s only because Trump was able the game that Electoral Collage nonsense that he was able to steal it. But then again if wasn’t for the electoral collage then who would think of the fat, lazy, worthless and stupid white trash farmers like the Bundies?

  291. 291.

    Jack the Second

    Does anyone else draw a line between “She shouldn’t have used a private email server/given speeches to Wall Street if she knew she was running for President” and “she shouldn’t have been having sex if she didn’t want to get pregnant” / “she shouldn’t have worn that dress if she didn’t want to get raped” / “she shouldn’t have been drinking if she didn’t want to get roofied”?

  293. 293.

    Miss Bianca

    @Groucho48: I love a man who quotes Marge Piercy! One of my all-time favorite authors! : )

    Which I have her “City of Light, City of Darkness” cued up right now…

  294. 294.

    tobie

    @Bupalos: I know this thread is way past over but I have to respond to this:

    The portrait of her from SNL is (without being generally recognized as such) as politically devastating as its possible to be, much worse than that of trump. That perception has some basis in sexism, but much more in her wooden public personality (similar to Romney) and shifting milquetoast focus group positions.

    There was nothing “milquetoast” or “focus-group” tested about HRC’s defense of choice, even in the case of late-term abortions, during the debates. It was one of my proudest moments as a Dem in this campaign. No faux sentiment (of the sort “I’m personally opposed to this but would allow it because my base wants it”); no lip service to the right (“this is terrible and we want to keep this procedure to a minimum”); no prevarication on the science (“if more conclusive evidence arises as to fetal consciousness, we’ll reevaluate our position”). Just a resolute and sober defense of a woman’s right to exercise control over her own body in the most difficult circumstances. I haven’t seen a politician take such a brave and principled position regardless of the costs in a long, long time.

  295. 295.

    Uncle Ebeneezer

    @Mnemosyne:

    After the election in 2008, I did take some time to examine some of my racial assumptions and prejudices because I realized that Obama was brushing up against some of them in ways I was not fully conscious of. I would love it if men on the left would take some time to similarly examine their own subconscious and unconscious misogyny and how it may have inadvertently led us to this point, but unfortunately, I don’t see that happening.

    Thank you!! Very well said.

    PS- Sorry I missed the SoCal meetup. Hopefully next time…

  296. 296.

    Applejinx

    @Jack the Second:

    Does anyone else draw a line between “She shouldn’t have used a private email server/given speeches to Wall Street if she knew she was running for President” and “she shouldn’t have been having sex if she didn’t want to get pregnant” / “she shouldn’t have worn that dress if she didn’t want to get raped” / “she shouldn’t have been drinking if she didn’t want to get roofied”?

    No, because giving speeches to Wall Street is not a wanton, self-destructive activity done out of joie de vivre and accessible to pretty much all.

    As for the email server, nobody sane gives a shit about the email server. The dynamic there is very much the Al Capone angle of ‘too tough to bring to justice any other way? Very well, if all we get to use is the email server, we will ride that email server until Doomsday’. It’s not that keeping an email server is the big deal, it’s what she had to say on it and to whom.

    We do know she was already running the Democratic machinery. We don’t know who was doing likewise on the Republican side because of Moscow’s curious unwillingness to impede Donald Trump (it would be darkly hilarious if Hillary was meddling in that as well)

    Wearing a dress or drinking at parties and unjustly being harmed for innocent activities is a ridiculously bad analogy for what Hillary was doing. She was running for fucking President. You have greater responsibilities if you intend to be President. And scorning that is a good way to see the chance of a complete bozo winning in your stead, because people see you as arrogant and irresponsible.

    I’m not going to say Hillary is Al Capone, but I absolutely will say she’s arrogant and irresponsible, and if Democrats cannot or will not do better, Democrats will never win again. I thought it was the Republicans who were supposed to die as a national party. Gee thanks 2016.

  297. 297.

    Miss Bianca

    @Applejinx: And I’ll say you are are an ignorant ass. There’s at least as much proof for that assertion as for yours about HRC. More, in fact – you are convicted by your own words. Is it too much to hope for that you’ll just STFU until you seek some (offline) help? Your rage issues with powerful women are pretty stomach-turning when vomited forth in this unmeasured manner.

  298. 298.

    Kay

    @Applejinx:

    We do know she was already running the Democratic machinery.

    Sanders’ supporters portrayal of what is ordinary politics as somehow a vast conspiracy convinced me Sanders’ supporters will be absolutely useless fighting Trump.

    I mean, Jesus Christ. There was NOTHING in those emails that was in any way a departure from an ordinary political contest. You-all running to your fainting couches because Clinton’s campaign practiced politics was one of the siller events of a deeply stupid race.

    Bernie Sanders ineffectual whining about Donald Trump will be the extent of the Left’s “opposition”. You’re all too pure for politics if you thought the Clinton campaign emails were bad. They weren’t. All campaigns sound like that. I would bet you 50 dollars that if we HAD Sanders’ internal emails those hacks he hired would sound EXACTLY like the Clinton hacks SHE hired. Trump’s too.

  299. 299.

    tobie

    @Miss Bianca: I see it like you. That’s why I don’t respond to him. This post was of course particularly vile. Suggesting HRC meddled to ensure that Russia wouldn’t release RNC emails so Trump would be the candidate is about the wackiest conspiracy theory I’ve heard. The level of misogyny revealed therein is astonishing.

  300. 300.

    tobie

    @Kay: Don’t forget that Bernie’s past actions were all excusable whereas Hillary’s were not. His yea votes for the 1994 crime bill, the indefinite detention of undocumented immigrants, and the omnibus budget that repealed Glass-Steagall were all explained away, as were his nay votes for the auto bailout, sensible gun regulations, etc. And his gaffes (like the one debate where he said that white people can’t understand what it’s “like to live in the ghetto,” as if all African-Americans lived in the ghetto) were likewise brushed away. This is not to suggest he was a hypocrite, only to point out the double standard that applied to him and to Hillary. I’m stunned that it’s hard for some to see how much this woman was vilified.

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