Aja Romano at Vox published a piece last week that traced how sexism serves as a gateway drug to overt white nationalism among the pallid froggy set that resides in the underbelly of the internet. Could be true, though it’s a bit of a chicken-or-egg question, I guess. I don’t know anyone who’s identifiably female online who hasn’t been harassed by sexist assholes, but the same holds true for non-whites. Here’s an excerpt from the Vox piece:
But one foundational aspect of the alt-right’s various belief systems has been significantly downplayed following the election — even though it may be the key to understanding the movement’s racist, white nationalist agenda. While it’s true that the movement is most frequently described in terms of the self-stated, explicit white supremacy that defines many of its corners, for many of its members, the gateway drug that led them to join the alt-right in the first place wasn’t racist rhetoric but rather sexism: extreme misogyny evolving from male bonding gone haywire…
In many alt-right communities, men are encouraged to view women as sexual and/or political targets that men must dominate. The men in these communities don’t see themselves as sexist; they see themselves as fighting against their own emasculation and sexual repression at the hands of strident feminists… All of these individual communities advocate a distrust of feminism and an insistence that female empowerment necessarily disempowers men.
It’s easy to see why these nasty folks would gravitate toward Trump, a leering predator who brags about assaulting women and treated beauty pageants he controlled like his own personal meat markets. Since the election, Trump has rewarded white power pukes by ensconcing Steve Bannon and Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III in positions of power. Now he may be preparing to reward the MRA crowd. From WaPo:
The Trump transition team instructed the State Department to turn over all information Wednesday about “gender-related staffing, programming, and funding,” setting off alarm bells among those who fear that the new administration is going to purge programs that promote women’s equality along with the people who work on them.
Only a week after being embroiled in a controversy over collecting information on Energy Department climate change officials, the Trump team seems to be at it again. On Wednesday morning, the State Department leadership sent out what’s called a “Flash Transition Tasker” to a long list of offices and bureaus. This official request mandated that all State Department offices provide to the Trump team by 5 p.m. Wednesday full reports on the positions and programs at the State Department dedicated to promoting a range of women’s and gender issues around the world.
That these are programs the woman who whupped Trump’s ass in the popular vote advocated is icing on the cake for him, I imagine.
A while back, someone in comments — probably Kay — mentioned how revealing (and infuriating) it is that Trump hands off “women’s issues” to his unelected, unqualified daughter. Yeah, it is. It’s as if he’s bestowing a ceremonial role, like the pardoning of the turkeys, when we’re half the fucking population!
Anyhoo, like the turkeys that didn’t get pardoned, it looks like women’s rights are on the menu.
Trentrunner
I got rebuked here before the election for saying that sexism was a more potent force in America’s electoral politics than race.
I hate being right.
Tom65
Selling everything, stuffing the fam in the boat and sailing ELSEWHERE (preferably a warm, Yankee-friendly country) is starting to have very real appeal. Fuck this noise, especially now with Cheeto Jesus saying he wants more nukes to play with.
Chris
@Tom65:
Where would that even be? The entire world seems to be going to hell in a right wing handbasket.
oklahomo
The woman who threw a fit over “being tired of hearing how we need to protect the Supreme Court” needs put in stocks in front of said court and pelted with rotten cantaloupes for the next 4 years.
Tom65
Somewhere in the South Pacific, I think. Hmmm, Pitcairn Island….
Betty Cracker
@Trentrunner: I don’t think you can understand American politics without factoring in a heavy dollop of both.
rikyrah
Thanks for informing me of this, BC. Had not heard this. And, I hope that Foggy Bottom tells Cheeto Benito to go phuck himself.
Major Major Major Major
@Trentrunner: By leftists of a certain chromosome composition, I’m guessing.
debbie
@rikyrah:
Except they seem to be complying with the request.
tobie
@rikyrah: Yup. Here’s hoping the State Department does what the DOE did.
PaulWartenberg2016
State Dept. people should go in with 10,000 sheets of paper with every State employee’s name on the list and say “This is it. EVERYBODY worked on this. EVERYBODY’S ON YOUR DAMN LIST NOW. Just try to come after us you McCarthyists fuckers.”
Thoroughly Pizzled
Men having “black friends” is fairly commonplace, even if it’s just one or they’re not actually friends. But how many men have woman friends?
debbie
@tobie:
Help me. Am I misreading this? I think it sounds like the State Dept. has asked that the information be provided:
HeleninEire
When I was very young; 12 maybe, so we are talking about 42 years ago, Gloria Steinem was asked if a woman would become president in her lifetime. Her answer was that all permutations of men would have to become president first. I LARRFFED MAO at her. I thought “Oh an African American man before a white woman? BWA HA HA, YOU DUMB, Gloria.”
Yeah. My bad. Listen very carefully abut what she is saying about abusers and their victims leaving. She has a clue.
oklahomo
@debbie: It sounds like they don’t want any precious tax dollars spent on programs for women’s and gender issues.
Bobby D
@Chris: New Zealand’s north island (not all that warm though), or Australia most places. Know a couple of retired US couples who are permanent ocean cruisers these days, they mostly ping back and forth from Santa Cruz to New Zealand, and hit various south pacific islands. Most of their time these days is in NZ, moreso than Santa Cruz. They rave about NZ, and have done so for about 20yrs now.
Lizzy L
No. No, they aren’t. The genie is out of that particular bottle, mofos, and she is NEVER going back inside. You think you got trouble with me? Wait until you meet my granddaughter. As one of our esteemed commenters is fond of pointing out, No one is playing with you.
rikyrah
Asking for a favor:
Will someone please leave the link to the blog/wiki that was collecting stories from people who would be adversely affected by the repeal of Obamacare and the destruction of Medicare?
debbie
@oklahomo:
Yes, it does, and as I read that quote, the State Department is helping them by providing the list.
schrodingers_cat
@Tom65: I am considering going here.
EBT
@debbie: Remember that they think if they crush what they think of as the feminazis then all the other women will fall in line and adore their strong masculine white ways. I suggest you buy a pocket pistol and get a CCL and keep it on you at all times when you leave the house. Don’t let a rape case make it to court.
Immanentize
@HeleninEire:
Well of course it would go that way — just like the voting franchise. Someone here titled a post: Men before women, white before black…. No mystery there at all.
Downpuppy
This could get complicated quickly. The worst sex based oppression in the world is in the countries that Trumpites are supposed to hate most, and they’re not quite ready for the inevitable alliance between Islamic & American Fundamentalists.
2017 : TYTSHTF
Immanentize
How’s that abortion and contraceptive rights thing going for you and your granddaughter? Women’s rights have been on the table for 30 years. Depending where you live, of course….
tobie
@debbie: I think your interpretation is correct. My hope was that the staff would balk and not provide any information. I need to look up how the request to name all climate scientists came to the DOE and if the department circulated anything similar to a “Flash Transition Tasker” before issuing a public statement.
Thoroughly Pizzled
It’s pathetic that so many young men voted for Trump because they couldn’t get laid. Reddit should have nipped it in the bud.
Betty Cracker
@Immanentize: That’s a great point. Wouldn’t surprise me if the Trumpence junta used that same model to undermine gay rights too.
Mnemosyne
@Trentrunner:
I don’t think I was one of the people saying that, because I could tell from the spouting of the Berniebros that a good half of his most rabid support (at least) came straight from misogyny and not wanting a woman to be president.
I know I’ve gotten into several tiffs here in the past with my respected friends who are women of color and who didn’t quite believe me that white male misogyny is as virulent as it is, but I think they can see now what I was talking about.
Sadly, Joe Biden might have beaten Trump even though he had the exact same weaknesses that Hillary did, because Biden has one thing that Hillary doesn’t: a peni$. That turned out to be a crucial factor, and a lot of liberal men didn’t want to hear it.
Gin & Tonic
@Mnemosyne: BHO was acceptable, even though black, because he filled out an NCAA bracket. HRC apparently doesn’t have an opinion on hoops, so end of story.
Immanentize
@Betty Cracker: The other day Trump said that abortion should just be returned to the States — which means what it was pre-Roe. “Create an underground railroad!” was what one of my friends said. “Do you know how many people were killed either travelling or helping on that passage?” I replied. And I will add here — how many never had the chance to ride that train. It is bad bad bad. But definitely worth fighting for!
ETA clarity
MaxUtil
@Trentrunner: It’s been rather surprising to me how little talk there has been of misogyny playing a role in the election and outcome. I kind of understand why the campaign and supporters didn’t want to play it up too much to avoid being accused of “playing the woman card”. But even in post-mortems, I don’t see much mention of how big a part it seems to have played in people’s perceptions and response. Perhaps it’s still just so deeply ingrained that even people who should know better don’t see it that well.
schrodingers_cat
Its not just racism and or misogyny that we are up against, its gigantic levels of stupid. I have no idea how to fight that.
Apparently sunspots are causing climate change according to my friend. I am going to suggest that she burn some coal in her backyard, the coal that Santa’s going to put in her stocking.
debbie
@tobie:
I believe the DOE refused to comply, period. I haven’t heard anything about their compiling lists as was requested.
schrodingers_cat
@Mnemosyne: Did you go to Uniqlo? I just ordered some tights from them. I will tell you whether heattech stands up to its hype. Whether they can withstand the cold of a New England winter.
Gravenstone
@Tom65: You know, the fallout would find it’s way to the southern hemisphere eventually.
Mary G
It’s interesting that women’s magazines are giving a platform to some of the most progressive writing out there. For Mnem, Lin-Manuel Miranda’s mom, Luz Towns-Miranda, who is a board member at Planned Parenthood, wrote an article in Vogue about how important PP is to so many women. Also, there’s a contest and you can win tickets to all three Hamilton shows in 2017.
oklahomo
@Gravenstone: Since it looks like a new arms race with Russia is on the agenda you may be right.
Mnemosyne
@schrodingers_cat:
I didn’t yet — I am afraid of the mall right now. I have other ladies at work wondering how well those tights keep one’s legs warm, so I definitely want to know!
Feathers
One thing that depresses me about lefty circles is that intersectionality seems to have become just another way to disappear women’s issues. Being told that contraception isn’t a women’s issue, because that is trans exclusionary framing. The active hostility to the problems faced by women in high profile careers and industries. After the election, I really wanted to just scream at certain folks that “Hey fuckers, I guess that the hatred of white women by white men really does matter. It does affect you, that nasty, dirty, ugly misogyny, no matter how desperately you tell yourself that you are facing (or fighting) some more noble sort of oppression.” It wasn’t the time or place, but that time and place will arrive.
Bostondreams
@debbie:
The difference apparently is that no names were requested, only positions and programs. Because the names make a difference, I guess. :/
Brachiator
@Trentrunner:
I’ll rebuke you again. I don’t think that you can slot bigotry into facile hierarchies.
Elizabelle
@HeleninEire: Here’s an interview with Steinem, Fortune magazine. Is this the comment you were thinking of?
This struck me as odd, every time I read it: Opening paragraphs of the story, which was published on November 17, 2016.
Why not? Did too many people take her for granted? This show traveled from London. It’s not like it was interfering with electioneering, and even then, I would have included Hillary because she is a woman who means something to us.
What is the story there?
Mnemosyne
@MaxUtil:
I really think this is a big part of it. If you point out to a liberal guy that his visceral loathing of Hillary — a pretty middle-of-the-road politician — is partly due to subconscious misogyny, 90 percent of the time you get only denial in return, generally in the form of, But I like Elizabeth Warren, so there!
Elizabeth Warren is the Black Friend of hundreds (if not thousands) of liberal white guys who don’t want to examine their unconscious misogyny.
James Powell
@Trentrunner:
You got rebuked? I’ve said the same thing many times. So have many others.
It’s also pretty obvious to anyone paying attention.
debbie
@schrodingers_cat:
I was just looking at them online and will be interested in your opinion of them. My apartment’s a sieve in the winter.
Brachiator
@debbie:
Yeah, the DOE respectfully refused to comply. I hope the State Department has a similar response.
debbie
@Trentrunner:
How about saying they’re all potent forces and are only dragging down the country?
Mnemosyne
@Feathers:
With most of our fellow women, I don’t think shouting will be required anymore. They saw how powerful Democratic women of all colors got treated this year, and that white women didn’t get fare any better.
Gin & Tonic
@oklahomo: It’s not an arms race with Russia. It’s justification for Russia and the US to jointly use nukes against some dirty Ay-rabs.
Gin & Tonic
@debbie: As a skier I can tell you their stuff is pretty flimsy.
Mnemosyne
@debbie:
In an election where an accomplished woman lost to an openly misogynist asshole, I’m not sure that all bigotries matter is going to help us figure out what happened.
Mary G
My state fighting back: California State Senators Co-Writing Presidential Tax Release Legislation
The bill would require Donald Trump & other presidential candidates to release their tax returns or not appear on the California ballot.
oklahomo
@Gin & Tonic: If Trump and Putin pool their resources, what happens to China as well?
John Revolta
OT but speaking of the First piece of Daughter…………what the HELL is she doing flying on JetBlue like a Goddamn loser peasant? What, did Trump have a coupon or something?
Roger Moore
@MaxUtil:
Look at who’s doing most of the talking, though; our media still skews very male, and that’s even more true at the behind the scenes levels that control what gets talked about.
Gin & Tonic
@oklahomo: That’s left as an exercise for the reader.
Brachiator
@MaxUtil:
There was discussion. It just didn’t get a lot of traction.
Major Major Major Major
@Mary G: Proud to have Scott Wiener representing me!
? Martin
@Mary G: It’s unclear whether we can do that or not. The states aren’t supposed to set qualifications to be President (that’s the Constitution) but we can set conditions to be on the ballot – signatures, forms, etc. Expect this one at USSC.
Corner Stone
@John Revolta: I know, right? JetBlue to HI? With a SS detail? What the hell is going on here?
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
It didn’t get a lot of traction with men. Women know what happened, and we’ve been talking about it out of all y’all’s hearing.
Bobby D
@John Revolta: Only thing I can figure, she had to book on short notice, and Blue was the only thing available.
Elizabelle
@Roger Moore: Yeah. They have dropped the ball on the misogyny issue.
And the cocktail dress cuties with slender toned arms and 3 inch stilettos, which is how women anchors and hosts are dressed these days, are already Stepford broadcasters.
Women broadcasters in Spain, in my small experience, dressed in pantsuits, and like moms in the car pool. They were neither silly nor badly informed. (Again, from what I could tell with my limited Spanish.)
pluky
@Feathers: No. It was exactly the time and place. You rub the puppy’s nose in the stain while it’s still warm.
? Martin
@MaxUtil:
Ironic when the White House announced that Putin was trying to influence the US election, which was completely lost in the püssygate coverage which hit that same day.
Mary G
@? Martin: Oh, I know, but I just love how California is not giving in on anything. There will be lawsuits galore, I’m sure. Citizens United is probably writing one up before the bill is even filed.
But I imagine there will be petulant tweets from It, which will be fun.
Corner Stone
Fuck you, Heidi Pryzybyla.
schrodingers_cat
@Gin & Tonic: @oklahomo: China and India should revive the Panchscheel treaty, may be get Iran to join too.
Shell
Just keeps getting better.Ugh~
“Diverse”? Well, I guess thats one way of putting it. And of course, tickets will be limited .
aimai
I saw this coming a mile away. I just had this conversation with my mother, yesterday. I predicted that Trump and Pence, from their different misogynistic strands, would set about firing every pregnant woman, every transgender person, and every divorced person that they can from the administration and any offices. Pence definitely comes from the Kinder/Kuche/Kirche school of fascism and Trump has, as you say, a debt to pay off to the alt right/MRA assholes. Its going to be open season on women in powerful positions, that is for sure.
schrodingers_cat
@Gin & Tonic: On their site, men’s stuff has poor reviews while women’s stuff has glowing reviews. I wonder what gives.
hovercraft
@Bobby D:
Someone out there correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve always been told that Australia is not the friendliest of places for black people. My cousin who’s lived in New Zealand for over 15 years on the other hand reports that he’s always felt welcomed. I’m thinking of Botswana, peaceful, small population, very stable democracy. You just have to be willing to live in a place that’s hot as hell, but it also is home to the Okavango, one of the most beautiful places on earth.
Not a great stretch for me, I went to high school there, and I have family there, so I’m keeping my options open. Who ever thought that one day I’d be contemplating fleeing back to Africa to safeguard my family.
trollhattan
@Shell:
Country AND western.
NeenerNeener
@Bobby D: Or no one would expect her to fly commercial, therefore it was safer than the private plane with TRUMP all over it.
debbie
@aimai:
Ooh, ooh, would that include Trump?
Waldo
Happened upon this prescient quote today:
“The high-sounding phrase “the American way” will be used by interested groups intent on profit, to cover a multitude of sins against the American and Christian tradition, such sins as lawless violence, teargas and shotguns, denial of civil liberties … ”
H.E. Luccock, 1938 sermon on fascism.
Jeffro
@rikyrah:
Yeah, I’m confused: why would Orangemandias need this info, again? Is there any justifiable purpose to it? No? Then let me just second the motion: he and his whole team need to go fuck themselves.
Frankly, the outgoing administration would do the world a huge favor by wiping every hard drive they’ve ever used and let Don the Con’s arsonist brigade try and figure shit out on their own. Anything to slow them down would be greatly appreciated, PBO…
schrodingers_cat
@hovercraft: That’s what I have heard too.
Mnemosyne
@aimai:
We’re coming out of an election season where Barbara Boxer was booed by supposed Democrats when she spoke at the Democratic caucuses in Nevada. I think it’s been open season on powerful women for at least a year now.
I’m not the only one who noticed the demonization of Debbie Wasserman Schultz (which had a lovely dollop of anti-Semitism on top), and I definitely am not the only one noticing that Donna Brazile is the current Public Enemy #1 for Politiciking While Female.
Elizabelle
@Bobby D: Also: JetBlue flies Airbuses. Maybe a point, since Trump is after Boeing?
Maybe she just needed a ride, though, and the Secret Service went along with her. Later, I guess, she can use a government jet, until someone sues to stop Trump from doing that.
Mnemosyne
@hovercraft:
I’ve been told by people who lived there that New Zealand is definitely better on race than Australia. They still have issues, but there’s no country on earth that doesn’t have any racial issues, unfortunately.
Cacti
@trollhattan:
As discussed in the previous thread, it seems that not even the stars of the country music genre are descending from the heavens for Drumpf.
Probably because of his well document practice of not paying contracts.
Это курам на смех
@Mnemosyne:
I think Biden would have beaten Trump easily. Mainly by virtue of being male, yes, but also because he would not have had the same handicaps — a 25-year-long smear campaign, the NYT putting all of its weight on the scale, and all the other bullshit that took down the esteemly qualified HRC.
Roger Moore
@schrodingers_cat:
Stereotypically, that would mean their stuff is fashionable but poor quality.
Corner Stone
Isn’t President Obama still President? Every day Trump continues to pants Obama’s dedication to being a nice guy and honoring the institution of the office.
Darkrose
@Mnemosyne: Well, except for the part where a majority of white women voted for the misogynist. The election was decided in part because too many women chose race privilege over gender solidarity.
schrodingers_cat
@Roger Moore: Or women are willing to undergo some discomfort to look good but men are not.
ETA: I only ordered one pair of tights, because their claims of heat retention do sound too good to be true.
Mike J
@Mary G:
Teen Vogue has better reporting than much of the “serious” media.
Roger Moore
@Corner Stone:
I think that a big part of what’s happening is that Obama is letting Trump absorb news cycles while he finishes up last-minute business. You can bet he’ll try to cram as much through between now an 20 Jan as he possibly can. For example, I expect at least 2 more National Monuments (Bear’s Ears and Gold Butte).
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
Imagine a woman who wore the same rumpled outfit to every appearance, never combed her hair, had a kid out of wedlock, a spotty work history prior to age 40, and liked to shout in a thick regional accent about “oligarchs”.
Now imagine how seriously she would have been taken by the “progressive” left as a Presidential candidate.
schrodingers_cat
@debbie: Have you tried silk long underwear from L L Bean. That stuff works and is not too bulky. They have a good year end sale, you should check them out.
rikyrah
@John Revolta:
That was nothing but a stunt.
schrodingers_cat
@Cacti: Even in academia I have seen male profs of BS age dress like homeless vagrants but never their female counterparts, no matter what age.
burnspbesq
Oh, dear God.
Senator Roy Moore?
germy
I keep seeing all these news stories that the Big Dawg did damage to his wife’s campaign because of his airport meeting with LL. According to the reporters (WaPo, etc.) LL would have prevented Comey if she hadn’t already been burned by all the “conflict of interest” shouting.
I don’t know if this is true or not, I just notice this is the latest story.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
It didn’t get a lot of traction in the media, with follow-up. There were good initial stories in the Guardian, for example. But not a lot of follow-up.
And just as no one admits that they are racist, no one admits that they are sexist. And you get a lot of “how dare you!” push back.
Really? The Maori of New Zealand were oppressed, hunted down, killed, as much as were the aboriginal populations of Australia.
Cacti
@Brachiator:
How could I be sexist? My Mom’s a woman!
Mnemosyne
@Darkrose:
The really ironic thing about white women in this country is that they have been the major beneficiaries of feminism while hating it with all their hearts. I can’t tell you how many white women I know who think every problem they have is the fault of feminists for forcing them to work when they want to stay home, letting their husbands cheat on them, etc.
I am not at all surprised that white women voted against Hillary, particularly older ones. I’m pissed off, but I’m not surprised, because these are my aunts and cousins, and many of them are very, very uncomfortable seeing a woman in power.
This may depress you even further, but they didn’t just choose racial solidarity. They knowingly chose to support male dominance, because they think it’s wrong for women to be in power.
Betty Cracker
@Darkrose: This is true, though 2016 did set the record for the widest gender gap in history, a record previously held by PBO.
hovercraft
@Mnemosyne:
I don’t know if I was one of those tiffs, but from my perspective it’s hard to say which is worse for me, the misogyny or the racism, in one sense, I feel that sometimes prospective employers see me as killing two birds with one stone, but then it also means that you are one person fighting two stereotypes at the same time. I’m a uppity, bitch who is overly aggressive and doesn’t know her place, or I’m a docile and trying to ingratiate myself, and I’m trying to act ‘white’. So I see both as major problems, but, at the end of the day, one is worse, being black is a “sin” that is inescapable, being a woman who is willing to “play the game” right will allow you to get ahead, as a black person, no matter your behavior, you are always suspect. Barack Obama was an exceptional candidate who struck at the right time. He was running against a terrible candidate at a time when the economy was collapsing, I think that if Hillary had been the nominee in 2008, she would have won. McCain was terrible on the economy, and she could have run against a continuation of the disastrous policies. I think that for the cave dwellers the possibility that after having to put up with a ni**er in the White House for 8 years, to now have to tolerate a c**t for the next 4, was too much and so they came out in droves to set the world back to rights.
If slavery is America’s original sin, remember that one of the greatest ‘perks’ of it was the right of white men to rape the slave women at will. When those women were taken away from them, they went back to raping and abusing the women they still ‘owned’, their wives. I feel this is like asking which is worse, stoning or being ripped apart by rabid dogs.
Jeffro
@Corner Stone:
fingers crossed that Obama really puts the knife in – and twists – with his pre-1/20 report on Russian hacking and contacts between Russia & Trump’s people. Inaugurate THAT, Mr. Unfit-elect.
Jeffro
@burnspbesq: Just another Steve “I’m a Leninist; I want to burn it all down” Bannon pick, no surprise here
Miss Bianca
@Feathers: yeah. I hear you. On all of that.
Mnemosyne
@Это курам на смех:
Yes, but all of the supposed “neoliberal” deficits she had regarding Wall Street, supporting NAFTA, being in favor of the Iraq War etc.? Joe had all of those, but worse, because he has a voting record in the Senate.
I mean, Biden was one of the frickin’ co-authors of what became the Patriot Act and I still had goddamned leftists telling me he wasn’t as horrible and corrupt as Hillary.
But Biden has a peni$, so horrible faults in Hillary are just silly peccadillos in him.
MomSense
@rikyrah:
Could happen to you
hovercraft
@schrodingers_cat:
Hey I was told that FOX and CNN are polar opposites, one is pro shitgibbon, and the other is anti. She was wishing for a ‘neutral’ source to give her just the facts.
If you perceive CNN as anti-Trump then there is no hope.
Millard Filmore
@oklahomo:
Perhaps they will form an alliance with India.
Bah! schrodingers_cat got that.
Roger Moore
@hovercraft:
This is wrong only in that it implies they gave up on raping and abusing their wives.
TS
@aimai:
Including Trump? I thought divorce and adultery were the new norm for the upcoming administration.
germy
MomSense
@Mnemosyne:
My son and I were having this conversation last night. He said he had friends who were Bernistas who said they couldn’t vote for Clinton because of Iraq, etc. but loved Biden. He said he would then talk them through the fact that Biden voted the same way on Iraq (Kerry, too), bankruptcy, etc. Then they would respond with some kind of trust issue. He believes that there is a good deal of misogyny in a woman politician being perceived as conniving or scheming in a way that a similarly ambitious male politician with a similar voting record is not. I think he is absolutely correct in his assessment.
germy
ratings are great over at faux
Mnemosyne
@hovercraft:
Just from my perspective as a white woman, black women really get it with both barrels, and it’s hard to tease apart which percentage is racism, which is sexism, and which is a weird mixture of the two (like beliefs about black women’s sexuality, which are racist and sexist at the exact same time).
We all saw it with Michelle Obama, unfortunately. She got hit with a firehose of all the shit in the world, and the few times they took a break from the open racism, they would hit her with the open misogyny just for giggles. It was just nonstop, 24/7. I mean, they tried to claim she didn’t birth her own daughters! What the fucking fuck was that all about except straight-up misogynist insanity?
Corner Stone
I am pretty sure I will never watch TRMS again after tonight’s bow down to KAC.
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
Michelle Obama’s memoir is the one I’m looking forward to the most.
After 8-years of holding her tongue, I’m sure she’ll have some very interesting things to say.
Miss Bianca
@Mnemosyne:
What’s that you say> “Peck!erdilloes”?
Brachiator
@Cacti:
I mentioned once a talk radio host who said the following.
On the other hand, his female co-host seemed to understand and agree. On this radio station (Los Angeles, KFI) the female on air talent almost always agreed or assented to negative assessments of Clinton, even if they were neutral or mildly negative towards Trump.
And yeah, I’m a man, but I thought this statement was one of the stupidest things I ever heard. It still rankles me with its condescension and sexism.
Betty Cracker
@MomSense: Smart kid.
Baud
Wait, you mean I have to respect gays, blacks, Muslims, and women. Fuck that! #TrumpVoter
John Revolta
@rikyrah: Could be, I guess. I still haven’t got used to thinking like that about the First Freakin’ Family.
Baud
@MomSense:
He did it for the right reasons.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
Actually, no. I jokingly call New Zealand the Canada of the South Pacific, but the two countries are also much more similar to each other in their treatment of their native populations than they are to their neighbors.
You are vastly underestimating how badly the Aborigines have been treated in Australia if you think the Maori treatment has been the same.
BillinGlendaleCA
@burnspbesq:
It’s
ChinatownAlambana, Jake.TS
@hovercraft:
Make that for non-white people. Until late 1960s the country had a “White Australia Policy” –
Immigration Restriction Act
Our native aboriginal people have been treated over the years as the native Americans. The majority were killed by the early European settlers.
White supremacists are currently getting elected to government, the RW government wants to balance the budget by depriving the poor and immigrants are treated as criminals. With Trump elected it’s not going to get any better in the short term. Australia is very dependent on the US for military protection and since the 1960s has acted like the 51st state.
The impact of religion, is fortunately, fading every year and the coastal climates – where most people live – are pleasant. In the past European immigrants came for the climate – like in the US, the color of the immigrant skin determined the level of acceptance.
FlipYrWhig
@Miss Bianca: Peckerdildoes, obvs.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne: If they’re fundies, wouldn’t surprise me in the least. There’s a strong belief that women shouldn’t have “domination” over men with fundies.
Betty Cracker
@Corner Stone: KAC is on Maddow tonight? Thanks for the heads up. I haven’t seen any TV news since election night, including Maddow, whom I like a lot. But if Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama did a joint interview of KAC on my lawn, I’d slam the windows shut and crank the stereo!
germy
@Betty Cracker: KellyAnne? Not the first time, though
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/08/25/rachel-maddows-fascinating-duel-with-trump-campaign-manager-kellyanne-conway-annotated/?utm_term=.fd0201b1d822
BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne: Joe Biden? You mean Joe Biden(D-MBNA)?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
He didn’t just vote the same way, he bragged about writing the AUMF with his good friend John McCain, and I’m pretty sure he wrote much of the crime bill HRC was pilloried for “supporting”. And voted for NAFTA, and to repeal Glass-Steal, and a lot of people think he was way too easy on Clarence Thomas, but I don’t remember the details off the top of my head. I like Biden, but it boggles one with disbelief that so many people on the left overlook all that, and I’m not convinced it would’ve stayed that way through a campaign.
But he never did give speeches to Goldman Sachs, which seems to have stuck in St Bernard’s craw, and those of so many of his worshippers
FlipYrWhig
@MomSense: The left has been practicing to hate Hillary Clinton since she won the senate race and then, along with the Iraq War vote, had that flag-burning law and that attempt to restrict video games. Plus they derided Bill as the “best Republican president ever,” and that stuck to Hillary as well.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: At their hand off last night, Lawrence O’Donnell pretty much told her, in so many words, that it was a waste of time, and she kind of blushingly agreed.
Mnemosyne
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Yes, and yet I was told that he wasn’t a corporatist neoliberal shill for Wall Street Iike Hillary was because … because … reasons!
FlipYrWhig
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Not to mention the International Deli-Dairy-Bakery Association. That was where you’d have been able to get the real whiff of corruption, if not for that fresh bread smell.
Roger Moore
@MomSense:
Absolutely, and it applies far beyond politics. Every time I hear about this kind of thing, I think about one of the female professors here at my work. People see her as pushy and obnoxious, when they’d see the same kind of behavior in a male colleague as being assertive, not taking no for an answer, demanding his due, etc. The exact same behavior is interpreted differently depending on who’s doing it. The worst part is that I see myself doing the exact same thing, to the point that any time we talk about her I have to stop myself and make sure I’m not being biased. What I will say is that after seeing the double standards so clearly once, it’s a lot easier to see them a second and subsequent time.
Cacti
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
2016: a choice between Donald Trump and Goldman Sachs
-Edward Snowden
February 27, 2016
FlipYrWhig
@Mnemosyne: He likes trains! He’s earthy! Ugh.
BTW, has anyone consequential on “the left,” in their many hymns and paeans to politicians who really get the White Working Class in the Rust Belt, brought up Tammy Baldwin or Jennifer Granholm? If not, why not? :P
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Cacti: and no small number of lefty purity trolls and voters in Michigan, apparently
BillinGlendaleCA
I noticed today that the local deplorable’s Loud Ass Truck no longer has a “Trump – MAGA” sticker on it. Did he remove it, or was it removed for him. Enquiring minds want to know.
Iowa Old Lady
I won’t allow KA Conway on my TV or radio. She’s a shameless liar. She’s like anti-news. Whatever comes out of her mouth makes you less informed than you were before.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Iowa Old Lady: Only thing I watch on the TV-machine anymore is the local news and sports(UCLA & Washington).
Miss Bianca
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yes, and because of that, my home state of Michigan can keep heading straight to hell where it apparently really wants to go. (sorry, Detroit and Flint – I know you’re there already, for the most part, because of white fuckers on the right. Now it seems that white fuckers on the left have no problem with that, either).
rikyrah
I have to admit that I was shocked by the points Hillary lost because of misogyny.
Cacti
@FlipYrWhig:
I’m also waiting on an explanation for how Russ Feingold and Zephyr Teachout lost, when economic anxiety of the white working class was the decisive issue.
Steeplejack (phone)
@debbie:
That song in the Microsoft ad is Macy Gray’s “Beauty in the World.”
Mnemosyne
@Darkrose:
@hovercraft:
Also, just to be clear, part of this is me kicking myself because I didn’t take misogyny seriously enough. There are at least a dozen times I can think of when I should have spoken up and pushed back on some misogynist bullshit in this election, and I didn’t.
I do think that white feminists and women of color need to come together after this. Given the voting percentages, it’s pretty clear that black women are the only ones with their heads screwed on straight at this point, so I’m happy to sit back and take direction, but I do think we need to work together for gender issues now in addition to racial ones. We can’t afford to pick and choose anymore.
debbie
@schrodingers_cat:
I will, thanks!
Cacti
@rikyrah:
I also sorely underestimated how deeply the sexism still runs in this country.
Al Gore and John Kerry both won Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. What was the qualitative difference between them and Hillary Clinton, besides the obvious one?
debbie
@burnspbesq:
Good news, though, that Carson’s nomination might be in trouble before it gets to the Senate.
Betty Cracker
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I hope Maddow asks KAC why she and Trump are still in campaign mode and taking every opportunity to slag Clinton when it’s customary for the person who won — especially after a nasty, divisive campaign and narrow win — to try to unite the country. She could also inquire about the non-stop lying, but that might be too much to expect.
hovercraft
@burnspbesq:
Makes sense, Sessions was rejected for the bench because he was a racist, and he was for the oppression of minorities, Moore has been thrown off the bench twice for discriminating against LGBT people. So why not swap out one discriminator for another, you know that deep down they are the same, the focus of their hate has just been different, but they hate all minorities. Beauregard may be focusing on the ‘browns’ right now, who better to continue his legacy, and the good people of Alabama are sure to vote him in permanently first chance they get.
debbie
@Steeplejack (phone):
Thank you! I thought it sounded like her, but I wasn’t sure she was still performing.
hovercraft
@germy:
She recused herself because of all the whining, so she wasn’t then able to tell him to back the fuck off when he started doing stupid shit. Their squawking gave their man a free hand to fuck Clinton, and so he did.
Baud
@hovercraft: That makes no sense. Someone else at DOJ would have taken over her role. DOJ wasn’t recused.
SiubhanDuinne
@Roger Moore:
This. I expect we’ll see a beefcake picture of Obama swimming or surfing on “vacation,” but he is acutely aware that until 12:01 p.m. on January 30, 2017, he is POTUS 24/7. And the days are dwindling down to a precious few.
Somehow, I don’t think Trump has come close to grasping that basic, elementary lesson of the Presidency. There is no “vacation.” There is no “time off.” You don’t ever get to take “a break.”
Mnemosyne
@SiubhanDuinne:
Thirded. I suspect that there’s a lot of stuff around rulemaking and other technical stuff that’s flying under the radar right now while Comrade Trump goes on his victory tour.
I was kinda pissed when W did a similar thing in 2008, but this is war now, and there’s no reason to puzzyfoot around. If nothing else, Obama has always been an amazing rules lawyer, so I think the new administration is going to be amazed at how much get blocked strictly because of the existing rules being applied.
Feathers
@Mnemosyne: I also think that if Biden was going to be the Dem candidate, Trump would never have gotten the Republican nomination. Hillary was seen as so evil that Trump was a reasonable choice by comparison. The derangement was so strong it didn’t seem to matter who they ran against her, so Trump slipped by.
Steeplejack (phone)
@debbie:
I didn’t have my super audiophile headphones on (joke!), but I think they might have tweaked her voice down a little bit to not interfere with the dialogue in the ad. Her voice is more “out front” in the YouTube video.
Anyway, glad I caught you. I got to that thread really late. I remember I searched for a month for a song that was in a 30-second Korbel Christmas ad a couple of years ago.
ETA: Link is to the song, not the ad.
Feathers
@Mnemosyne: @hovercraft: I think there also needs to be a recognition by WOC that just like there are worlds white women have no access to and we need to accept the racism faced by WOC there, there are also realms where there are no WOC and the misogyny there can be horrible and damaging. White men will sabotage and destroy white women on the job, in very conscious ways. Even the ones who don’t see themselves as bad guys “just happen” to have expectations that leave their female partners with vastly lowered options for what their lives will be able to become.
And misogyny is a gateway drug for hardcore racism. Gamergate, which was dismissed in many activism circles as white women whining, was the dress rehearsal for the white supremacy of the Trump campaign Here’s a good article on this from Vox.
Applejinx
@Cacti:
So, Goldman Sachs and Goldman Sachs, then? I voted for Goldman Sachs with tits. And hawkishness.
You people are beyond belief. Hillary is not Mom. Or Grandma. It’s absurd. She’s a tough-ass, ambitious lady driven by pressures we can’t begin to understand, more hawkish than Trump, still stuck in a 90s careerist world that’s now a zombie lie lurching with ever-increasing intensity toward hell on earth.
What the serious fuck.
She’s Margaret Thatcher with focus groups. I voted for her anyway and would not have done otherwise, but she scares the fuck out of me. Not so much now, except I don’t think we’ve seen the last of her: tells you something that the Bush dynasty gives up more easily. As long as Hillary lives, she’s not done. She’s fucking insane to have taken the abuse she’s had, some of which she walked right into and didn’t give a shit, and yet keep coming back like the Terminator. They WILL have to jail her to stop her.
I completely understand why people around here find that admirable, but to me it just underscores how bad all our choices have been.
Mnemosyne
@Applejinx:
Uh, Trump is doing his level best to start a shooting war with China and is champing at the bit to bomb Iraq, so I’m not sure why you still think he’s “less hawkish” than Hillary.
You also seem to be under the impression that our moms and grandmas were sweet, cookie-baking housewives who never raised their voices. My grandma was a six-foot-tall Irishwoman who threatened a nun with a beatdown if that nun ever raised a hand to her son (my father) again. My other grandma raised four daughters on her own after she was widowed, and I still have my suspicions about who this “Mademoiselle” person was that she lived with for 30 years.
Yes, Hillary does remind us of our mothers, aunts, and grandmothers, because most of our mothers, aunts, and grandmothers are tough-as-nails bitches who don’t let anyone walk over them. I’m sorry that you seem to have had crappy female role models in your life, but your life is not our experience.
schrodingers_cat
@Mnemosyne: Thank You! Both my grandmoms were strong women. My father’s mother was a civil servant in India. She rose through the ranks when being a working woman outside home was unheard of. She was tough as nails too! We used to call her Indira Gandhi of the house. My grandpa was a figurehead, just like the President of India.
Cacti
@schrodingers_cat:
My maternal grandmother was a child of the depression and a daughter of tenant farmers, who grew up picking cotton during her summers.
As an adult, she was widowed at age 46, finished raising her 5 children to adulthood, and never remarried, despite being limited to “women’s work” for women’s wages in the professional world of the 1960s and 1970s. She was a loving person, a tireless worker, and lived to age 94, voting Democratic till the end.
She’ll always be on my short list of “people I most admire”.
Aleta
@Applejinx:
The Bushes are sitting a dance out, far from giving up. The closer you look the more scared you’d be. They’ve avoided close scrutiny for generations, and VP Bush shielded Reagan, too. No comparison to the hellhounds set on the Clintons. Maybe the Clintons don’t give up because they’re too angry, not just for themselves but for what’s been done to the country.
Brachiator
@Applejinx:
This is beyond stupid. And I am not one of Clinton’s biggest fans. It’s as though you are reiterating some scripted nonsense, or a gibberish mantra. Especially now that we know who some of Trump’s appointments are.
Bex
@Applejinx: You scare the fuck out of me.
Brachiator
@Aleta:
The Clintons should give up. Or concentrate on their worthy charities. They are a spent force politically.
Miss Bianca
@Applejinx: Every time I think that maybe, just maybe, you’ve learned something by being here, you never fail to disappoint. And offend.
I, like the other women commenters here, can attest that my mother and grandmothers would have scared the ever-living SHIT out of you. Like Hillary Clinton, they were talented, ambitious women. Unlike Hillary Clinton, they were given little scope for their talents and ambitions, and had to pour it all into their men, and their children, to try to drive them into being the people THEY wanted to be. They were not “sweet”. HRC is demonstrably, head-and-shoulders, a nicer person than they were.
“Goldman Sachs with tits”? Shove it, asshole. Just shove it. And fuck yourself. Keep to your dreary little shithole and don’t pollute this place again, if that misogynistic bullshit is all you’ve got to offer.
@Brachiator: And I wish you’d shut up about the Clintons, too, frankly. To call a former President, a former First Lady, two-term Senator, Secretary of State, and should-have-been POTUS “a spent force politically” reeks of condescension. You should dream of being that kind of “spent force.” Get out there and show us how it’s really done, hotshot. Let’s see you heat up the political scene like a two-dollar pistol.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
He’s over thinking it – these guys are cowards and looking for victims to bully. Woman don’t like confrontations so the bully attack women, blacks have sore spots about racism so the bullu spew racists hate. Likely the typical white male gets harassed less because the typical white male is more willing to fight back, and since it’s white dude on white dude violence, better at knowing were to inflict pain on the bully, that’s all.
One can see why they are such Trump fan bois because Trump sort of promises they can take their internet asshole act into the real world.
stinger
@Miss Bianca: You speak for me.
KS in MA
@Immanentize: This.
Mnemosyne
@Miss Bianca:
I’m still trying to figure out the Margaret Thatcher comparison. Was Hillary going to sell our public utilities to private companies? Destroy the social safety net? Use government troops to violently break up a miners’ strike? What the fuck do Thatcher and Hillary have in common other than the one thing Applejinx can’t forgive: they both have vaginas?
Tehanu
@stinger:
Miss Bianca speaks for me too.
Grung_e_Gene
@Cacti: Snowden and Greenwald are ratfvckers extraordinare who only going out they really disliked government when Barack was in charge.