The mainstream media has the attention span of a dog on a squirrel farm, but even that twitchy bunch seems to be coming around to the fact that Trump’s election is tainted by the Russian hacking operation. Putin’s interference wasn’t the only factor, but it drove media coverage of EMAILS EMAILS EMAILS, which had a measurable effect on public sentiment, just as Putin and Assange intended.
Now, I do not believe there will be any no do-overs. I am 99% certain the Electoral College will certify Trump’s win next week, and he’ll become president on January 20. But Trump’s reaction to the coverage of the hacking story shows he understands how damaging it is for him. From this morning, probably tweeted while the Shitgibbon watched “the shows” as the hair crew did their daily work on his noggin:
Are we talking about the same cyberattack where it was revealed that head of the DNC illegally gave Hillary the questions to the debate?
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 16, 2016
As a narcissist, Trump sees everything through the prism of how it affects himself. Most of us see a hostile foreign power meddling in a US election as a bad thing. But when viewed through the Trump Lens, Putin is a good guy since he once complimented Trump, and the hack is a positive thing since it benefited Trump.
Most members of the Republican Party-Before-Country Party have a similar defect. And since the hack went beyond the presidential race and benefited who knows how many GOPers, I’d be utterly shocked if they deign to do their jobs and protect and defend the United States.
That’s why it’s all going to come down to President Obama. He’s a patriot who believes in our institutions. But I suspect that, like many of us, his faith has been shaken by recent events. We won’t recover if the Trump administration is allowed to gloss all this shit over, to make their sleazy power-grabs and nonstop lies the new normal in the absence of any organized and sustained opposition.
We need to know the extent of the hack, who was involved and which races were affected before PBO leaves office in 34 days, preferably via a prime time speech delivered from the Oval Office. Any intelligence that can be provided to the Electoral College before they vote in three days should be submitted now. Otherwise, Trump and the Republicans will shove this under the rug, and the media will get distracted when Ivanka sets up a bling kiosk in the Rose Garden.
This may be our last shot.
mkro
Because talking about debate questions is EXACTLY the same as hacking into servers, stealing emails and publishing them online.
Trentrunner
Obama’s press conference today before he leaves for vacation should signal something.
If he continues only with the “We’ll respond to Russia at a time and place of our choosing” schtick, though, that will be disappointing.
Corner Stone
WASF
bk
I’m shocked, SHOCKED, that Hillary was told that there might be a question about the Flint River water issue at a debate that was going to be held in…;.Flint, Michigan.
Betty Cracker
@Trentrunner: Didn’t know there was one. I agree.
@Corner Stone: Maybe, but have you heard Josh Earnest lately on the Trumpster’s lies about the hacking? Could be a signal that they’re getting ready to push back hard on this. I hope so.
mkro
@bk: In his tweet, Trump actuall called that “illegal” … LOL!
rikyrah
Putin turns political power into extreme wealth
Rachel Maddow explains how Russia, under Boris Yeltsin, privatized its national assets to a few powerful bank oligarchs, and how Vladimir Putin learned to take advantage of that system to make himself, according to US intelligence, the richest man in the world.
Corner Stone
I hope to be shortly eating crow all day long but I just do not see Obama making any definitive statement or taking any strong action to mitigate what’s about to happen.
And the time for action, strength, whatever green lantern word you want to choose, was months ago. This has infuriated me that high confidence and details were known months and months ago and nothing changed.
You can say that HRC said it to Trump’s face during the debate, and no one cared, and that is factually true. But this is much larger than two candidates jabbing at each other. this is foundational and should have been taken out of HRC’s camp’s hands. This is about the entire systemic operation of the sovereign United States.
Jeffro
1) Love “…the Republican Party-Before-Country Party”!
2) Would not be surprised to see PBO lay it all out – timelines, direction from Putin, who was hacked and who wasn’t – and then note to the Electors that it’s up to them to decide if they want to carry out the wishes of a hostile foreign power.
3) WOULD be surprised…pleasantly so…if Hillz followed up PBO’s press conference with a separate speech of her own (hopefully before the Fri evening news) offering to form a unity government, and/or serve only one term, to help “ease the consciences of those who were charged to serve their party, but now must consider how best to serve their country” Go for it Hillary!
Corner Stone
@Betty Cracker:
I have, and they have clearly been strenghtening over the last several days. And they are getting under Trump’s skin – surprise!
But this is pissing up a rope at this point.
Jeffro
@Betty Cracker:
2:15 p.m. today, I believe.
lamh36
Obama would be a better person than I.
It’s always down to him…and he always does his best only to get stabbed in the back by some in his own party and most of those out.
So no matter what he does it won’t matter…prediction most will be disappointed.
Obama believes in the process and elections and rules of law…and thisbaint some Armageddon/Deep Impact/Indepenence Day movie …no last act big miraculous saves happens much in real life
Obama is a better person than i cause i’d take my vaykay and say “Good luck America…deuces”
the man has “saved” folks enough in these 8 years and what does he have to show for it…Cheeto Prez
Jeffro
@Corner Stone:
I’ll take pissing up a rope, a 1% chance, drawing to an inside straight…not throwing away our shot…any day. Odds are long but it’s worth trying, considering what we see coming.
mai naem mobile
Well I don’t have the temperament for president because if I had reasonable proof of the Russian hack I would have the Russian electric grid out for several days. Worse in the colder areas and I would have droblne bombed a few important oil related sites. And then, I would really go after Putin and send him a nasty ass really mean tweet.
gene108
@rikyrah:
I think, in four years, Trump will be able to give Putin a run for his money in the World’s Richest Man contest.
Corner Stone
And now Trump is using Obama’s essential decency and patriotism against him. He’s using the restraint Obama has shown since the election to wedge between the WH and the POTUS on what is actually being claimed.
Yarrow
This got attention yesterday afternoon:
Mike in dc
I’d hope that Obama will summarize the findings so far, and reiterate that the US will respond accordingly…before he leaves office. Trump can stop anything that starts after Obama is gone, so the response, by definition has to happen on or before 1/20/2017.
tobie
I think someone in an earlier thread today said that Congressman Sarbanes (MD, District 3) suggested that everyone should write their Congresscritter–even if a Republican–asking for an independent investigation into Russia’s influence in the election. I take this to mean: this story has legs. I hope Democratic spokespeople will stay on message on this one.
p.a.
I hope this is O’s plan: “delegitamize, huh? tried with me, huh? I’ll show you punks how to deligitimize, and my target will be a legitimate one!”
randy khan
@mkro:
And she wasn’t head of the DNC at the time, and it was topics, not actual questions.
Looking for the lies in a Trump tweet is like finding Waldo in a picture with a big red error pointing at his hat.
Jeffro
If the EC vote goes as it likely will, don’t forget your handbook.
Mnemosyne
@mkro:
And the most maddening thing is that if you are unfortunate enough to encounter one of the Trumpsters or last remaining Berniebros out on their desert islands, that’s pretty much what they’ll say — as long as it was “true” (for their preferred value of true), they don’t care what the source was.
Yarrow
@Jeffro: Thanks for re-linking this. This needs to be front paged! Everyone needs to be calling their reps and maybe calling some other reps that are speaking out, like Lindsey Graham, to say you support his efforts. Let them know we’re out here!
Corner Stone
@Jeffro:
I’ll take any hope we can get too, considering what is coming. It’s just that I think we are going to get the equivalent of a strongly worded letter to the editor, beautifully delivered.
Brachiator
@Jeffro:
A report on CBS news this morning suggested that Obama knew about the Russian attempts to influence the election, but soft pedaled it to some degree because he, like most pollsters and pundits, believed that Clinton would win. So, while attempts by Russia to influence the election is undeniable (unless you are a die hard Trumpette), there is no evidence that Russian hacking changed the outcome of the election.
The Electors do not have any reason to change what they ordinarily would do.
Something like this would have to come from a bipartisan agreement of the Republicans and Democrats, not from Hillary. In other words, ain’t gonna happen.
Jeffro
@Corner Stone:
@Yarrow:
I think we’ll see which way POTUS is leaning in just about 3 hours…certainly my hope is that he realizes extraordinary times, and an extraordinary threat, requires an extraordinary response.
Heck, he should just let Josh Earnest get up there and go for it…the man’s been on a tear the past two weeks.
tobie
@Mnemosyne: Didn’t Donna Brazile deny this story? I thought she questioned the legitimacy of the email on which this ‘scoop’ was based. I need to look this up. It’s immaterial but it would be interesting if the only supposed breach of norms was itself fake.
Jeffro
@Corner Stone: I hear you
p.a.
What can the US do to ‘get back’ at Russia without causing real danger? Lower crude prices. How? Saudis bump up production even more? (They’ve been doing this for a while, apparently to impoverish Daesh.). What’s in it for them? What do they think about tRump admin humjobbing the Isreali right, and how will they make the US pay for it!
cmorenc
Meanwhile, over on Faux last night, during a Megan Kelley segment about the Russian election hacking issue – the banner tag-line Fox ran underneath the picture said:
– note the Cavuto-mark style of presentation. OF COURSE, Fox’s panel discussion included the sage “fair and balanced” contribution of Tucker Carlson.
….You might be wondering, why would I be watching Fox? Because I was doing a workout at the local Y I belong to, and one among the bank of four TVs in front of the workout stations I was using is always tuned to Fox, and the one next to it tuned to CNN (the other two are: Food Channel and some Sports broadcast – NCAA volleyball last night IIRC). I must say it IS indeed enlightening to watch CNN and Fox simulcast side-by-side for a half-hour during my daily workout and compare the vast differences in coverage focus and presentation between the two networks – even though CNN political panels always include Trump-spinners Kayleigh McEnany and either Jeffrey Lord or someone equally glib. Fortunately, to actually listen to audio you have to have an iPod or other radio-reception capable device tuned to the frequency of the particular TV you want to watch – but they also provide close-captioning for both CNN and Fox, so that’s not really needed to follow along.
Jeffro
@Brachiator:
Why would Hillary offering to put Rs in her cabinet, or to only serve one term, have to come from a bipartisan agreement?? She can make that offer to the EC herself.
Ben Cisco
@lamh36: It has been rather enlightening, hasn’t it?
p.a.
@Brachiator: Agreed. The
fascistsRepubs would shiv tRump before anything else; they’d be more than happy with a Dense Presidency.catclub
@Jeffro:
I would be extremely shocked and pleased. No way he says that last part, no matter how true it is.
lamh36
OT but how about some better news with guaranteed happy results…
Today is the day!! Congrats to my lil siste! Graduating from SUBR w/B.S. in Social Work!!! That’s 4 out of 5 sisters with a B.S.!!!
#graduate
#ProudOfMySister
Enhanced Voting Techniques
I don’t think 30 days will be enough for the general public and press to process the president is a traitor. What Obama can do is get the facts out there at lest the non insane folks to think it threw. I also don’t think the Trump Reality Presidency will be enough to distract people from the scandal when it does sink in, in fact the Reality Show will like fuel the scandal purely because of the drama of it all (keep in mind even GW Bush was real careful about appearances) Also the foreign press is going to love the scandal too (For example, I am sure the Chines will sneer at him as a Russian puppet if Trump pushes them on trade and Taiwan)
rikyrah
@lamh36:
tell that truth, lamh.
Kathleen
@Betty Cracker: I’ve also wondered if Harry Reid has been an Obama surrogate. He is in a perfect position for that role,
catclub
@p.a.:
not much, and nothing that cures that actual injury of getting Trump elected fraudulently.
Napoleon
@Corner Stone:
BTW, I am totally convinced that Trump calling him and saying nice things about Obama is basically part of this strategy. He wants to lull him into not doing a recess appointment on the SC, into not releasing information about the hacking, ect. They are totally trying to play him, and have been since the Thursday following the election when they meet.
catclub
@lamh36:
Slate article on re-introducing mountain lions in the east of the US?
catclub
@Jeffro:
maybe be they will hide all the nuclear codes. and the golden T’s on all the typewriters.
MazeDancer
Mr. Obama could have video coverage of Russian hacking and MSM will still frame the “horserace”. Which is whether or not hacking revelations are politically motivated.
Just asking if knowing about cyber invasion is something other than full-on, five-alarm “US has been attacked!” is proof nothing matters to media except money. And shows how if Mr. Obama had said anything about Russian invasion before election, the reality of a hostile invasion would have been totally lost to McConnell’s “Partisan lies!!!”.
A bi-partisan special committee investigation make be our only hope. Also Lindsey Graham. Mike Pompeo is a Hillary hater for sure. But wonder if there is some remnant of patriotism in there that will be revived when he is surrounded by a CIA that keeps telling him: Nation in danger, we’ve been invaded. Hope so.
rikyrah
@lamh36:
Congratulations to her!!!!
germy
Meanwhile…
tobie
@Napoleon:
Evidently this is how Trump works. Play nice, praise you to the sky in private, and then stab you in the back. I’m just stunned that (a) people still fall for it and (b) that this vile POS with no ounce of decency or empathy can be in the least bit charming.
tobie
@lamh36: Congratulations to you, your sister and your entire family!
Yarrow
@MazeDancer:
Adam Silverman said the other night that there is a certain type of congressional investigation that the next president won’t be able to stop. The next president could stop a special prosecutor so that’s not a good option.
And yes, Lindsey Graham has been very consistent on this. He’s not shutting up. If you have a minute, call his office and thank him. I did that and they were very nice and friendly when I told them why I was calling. Tell them you encourage him to keep investigating. He’s a patriot. Etc. I know he’s a Republican, but he’s doing the right thing about this. We need everyone we can get working on this. All hands on deck.
Brachiator
@Jeffro: RE: Something like this would have to come from a bipartisan agreement of the Republicans and Democrats, not from Hillary. In other words, ain’t gonna happen.
I’m sorry. I was unclear. Congress could, I suppose, come to some kind of compromise agreement, Republicans and Democrats, and strongly encourage the Electoral College to vote for Hillary and this fantasy unity government.
Hillary making an appeal by herself would be a waste of time, and lack even a sliver of any constitutional authority.
Trentrunner
Many things are wrong about Barack Obama, but not having Trump’s number is not one of them. Obama knows exactly who he is.
Calouste
@gene108: I don’t think Putin will let Trump get that far. Putin wants a weakened and divided United States, that doesn’t have the will and ability to stand up against Russia’s expansion plans. Not a dictatorship with an unpredictable, uncontrollable, megalomaniac man-child heading it who could turn against him on a dime.
PPCLI
@mkro: He’s looking ahead. By 100 days into his presidency, “Actions that Displease The Beloved Leader Trump” will be against the law.
Kathleen
@lamh36: Congratulations to your sister and your whole family because I’m betting she couldn’t have made it without you all.
gogol's wife
Does it ever occur to the Repubs to ask themselves WHY Putin prefers them in office? Could it be because they are bad for the United States of America?
HRA
http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/15/politics/hillary-clinton-john-podesta-russian-hacking/
Hillary acknowledged the hacking stemmed from Putin’s dislike of her in a speech she gave last night to her donors. Podesta is attacking the FBI for doing nothing about it.
gogol's wife
@Yarrow:
Good idea.
Calouste
@cmorenc: There a journalistic law that I have forgotten the name of that postulate that any headline that ends in a question mark has the answer “No”. So according to Fox the allegations of Russian hacking are indeed not overblown.
Mike in dc
I’m wondering what the array of viable retaliatory options are:
1) cyber attack on Russian infrastructure
2) revealing, freezing or seizing Putin and the oligarchs bank accounts
3) revealing the extent of Putin’s control of media, killing of political enemies etc
4) something overt, like a strike taking out Assad.
I doubt Obama would authorize a provocative military act, though. And sanctions are worthless with Trump coming in.
schrodinger's cat
@gogol’s wife: You are a scholar of Russian, perhaps you have better insight into Comrade Putin than the rest of us. What is his endgame? How is the United States and the world order in turmoil better for Russia in the long run? I am not seeing it.
Yarrow
So this is also happening.
Sweden. Preparing for war.
daveNYC
@Mike in dc: Additionally, any response has to be something that can’t be undone easily. An executive order for more sanctions that would be in place for all of a month can’t be on the menu.
SiubhanDuinne
@bk:
@mkro:
FlipYrWhig
@Yarrow:
Great Northern War II?
FlipYrWhig
@SiubhanDuinne: Perhaps, but unless it happened via the medium of email, that’s hardly newsworthy! :P
Chip Daniels
@Yarrow:
I have reluctantly come to believe we are already in a new Cold War, and this hack was our Pearl Harbor, our 9-11.
brendancalling
@Corner Stone: He won’t do anything. He won’t eve recess-appoint Garland to stave off the disaster for a year.
Brachiator
@germy:
Diamonds, and Birtherism, are forever.
Yarrow
@Chip Daniels: Agreed. I’m not sure it’s even a Cold War. It’s a Cyber War, although exactly what that will look like I don’t know. I expect it could include things like taking out electrical grids, disrupting airline travel, taking out the internet regionally for periods of time (like happened a month or so ago), hacking and either blackmailing wealthy, powerful people or releasing the information to take them down, hacking hospitals to shut them down, etc. I’m sure I’m barely scratching the surface.
What I will say is that ordinary people are going to feel the effects of this war. No internet, no heating, cooling, electricity. Possibly no water. No transportation. No medical care. We are not prepared for this.
Hill Dweller
@brendancalling: Senate Republicans are convening pro-forma sessions to prevent Obama from making any recess appointments.
ChrisGrrr
I wish I could stoke up some optimism.
The national “media” leaders, with three or four noble exceptions, care more about their net worth than the future of their country. I guess I’ll be checking in on a couple of news networks located elsewhere, and a couple of smaller web news outlets, with a careful eye.
Nearly every GOPee politician has shown that they care more about their prestige than the future of their country.
The lack of spittle-flecked fury from almost every Democratic politician with guts is, frankly, mystifying… but they know things that I don’t. (What the DNC’s actual goals are is another puzzle, considering what they did and didn’t do this year.)
Helping those in need, one-on-one, is my new job. Other than that, I got nuthin’.
Corner Stone
@catclub:
Better yet making the letter T into a macro that automatically spells out Treason and spell check autocorrects Trump to Traitor right when someone hits Send.
SatanicPanic
@brendancalling: as much as I hate to say this, Obama is really blowing it right now. This is serious stuff and he’s acting like he can’t comment or do anything because it would cause people to lose faith in the system. That ship has sailed.
john (not mccain)
“This may be our last shot.”
Fortunately, we only have to hit the target once.
Napoleon
@tobie:
I am currently reading Robert Caro’s book on Robert Moses. You ought to read it sometime. He was the same way.
Chris
@gogol’s wife:
Yeah, this is kind of the underlying thing for me.
I almost don’t care whether the Russians hacked us or whether their hacking had any outcome on the election; the ultimate issue either way is simply having a president in the White House who’s openly on friendlier terms with Putin than he is with NATO. Did Russian intelligence play any role in putting him there… who cares; he’ll certainly govern as if it had. Did Russian intelligence interfere in the election… who cares; the man who’s now president is a man who openly said he wished they would. That’s worthy of an extreme reaction from both parties even if not a single Russian fingerprint turns up in this election.
(To put it another way: if we’d woken up in the 1950s and discovered that the CPUSA candidate had won the White House, we’d be in deep trouble regardless of whether the KGB played any role in putting them there).
Calouste
@schrodinger’s cat: Russia can take back all the parts of the old Russian Empire that are now independent states if the US and the world are in turmoil. It’s a bit problematic to do that in the current situation.
catclub
@ChrisGrrr:
see the latest from Kevin Drum. He is also mystified.
Yarrow
@SatanicPanic: I disagree. He’s been ratcheting up the pressure all week. Leaks have gotten progressively more direct. Today he’s got a press conference.
I also think if Obama had been more direct before the election that it would have gotten lost in the Horse Race and it would have been chalked up to Obama Playing Politics. There were reporters doing stories on this. Hillary was specific about it during a debate. No one cared or believed them. Why would it have been different if President Obama had done it?
I do agree Obama has too much confidence in the rule of law and too much faith in the American people. It’s a blind spot. But he’s also the guy who went to the WH Correspondent’s dinner and told jokes while they were taking out Bin Laden. He’s not one to tip his hand.
Emma
I am sick and tired of the Obama blame game. He has always been thoughtful and long-range and he knows his options. We are panicking (and so we should, really) but instead of praying to the God of chance (never a good idea, especially in politics) we should be figuring out our long-range.
Yarrow
@ChrisGrrr:
Yes, this puzzles me too. I wonder if they feel if it’s only Democrats screaming about it, or majority Democrats, if it’ll make it seem too partisan and de-legitimize it somehow? Right now there are quite loud Republicans, which satisfy’s the dumbass media’s need for Both Sides Do It.
Aleta
Cat has Christmas spirit. ( Or is it war on ?)
SiubhanDuinne
@mai naem mobile:
Okay, that made me laugh. Heartily, I might add.
Chris
@schrodinger’s cat:
I always assumed that he wanted the EU, NATO, and all the other institutions that add up to “the West” as we’ve understood the term since 1945, broken up from the inside. That not only gives him a free hand in the countries close to his border (which he already has in many, but not in the Baltics or other NATO members), and it allows him to play the newly disunited nations off against each other.
As far as the effect on global stability, I’ve always gotten the impression that the Russians care far less than, say, the Chinese, about preserving global stability. Maybe they don’t own as much in U.S. treasury bonds, maybe their economies aren’t as tied to Western prosperity, maybe their politics just tend more towards Chaotic Evil.
Corner Stone
@Napoleon:
Whatever there is to be said about President Obama and his desire to have faith in people, etc, I have zero doubt that Obama knows exactly who Trump is and couldn’t fig less for what Trump says about him.
Yarrow
Trump is going to go to war with the CIA. Can he purge people there? How does that work?
SatanicPanic
@Yarrow: I hope you’re right. What’s going on right now is mind-blowing.
SatanicPanic
@Emma: I dunno about everyone else, but personally this has changed everything for me, and I’ve gotten to work outside of the internet. So FWIW I’m nervous about Obama but I’m not just griping on the internet.
Corner Stone
Nobody is blaming Obama for Russia hacking the US and interfering in the election. The blame lies completely on the bad actors, and then a complicit media that bullhorned their espionage 24/7.
However, it seems odd to me that asking the most powerful man in the nation, one who swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, to have acted more urgently and long before now should be seen as an attack on him personally.
Yarrow
Evan McMullin is doing great stuff. He’s getting under Trump’s skin who keeps calling him “this guy” and then McMullin calls him out on that too and dares him to say his name.
Brachiator
@gogol’s wife:
The Russians could give less than a shit about America or whether the Republicans are good or bad for America.
The Russians want to destabilize NATO and remove the US as an obstacle to Russia’s national interests. And probably make some money on energy or other deals with US oligarchs.
A talk show host with a military background suggested that the Russians hacked GOP emails, too, and might release material after the inauguration if it served their interests.
germy
@Brachiator:
Perhaps there’s a place for the sheriff in the new admin.
SiubhanDuinne
@tobie:
Even if it is true, why would anyone think that the Deputy Director of the DNC — by definition a highly partisan job — wouldn’t pass along any information/intelligence about possible debate questions or topics to the candidate in advance? I think Donna Brazile would have been almost in dereliction of her job duties if she had failed to share it with Hillary. (Now the fact that she presumably got the question from CNN and was, at the time, a paid commenter on CNN, is a whole nother issue.)
(Edited for clarity.)
Aleta
@Yarrow: ‘Delegitimize’ him? If he really believes that, his paranoia will be through the roof for the rest of his life.
Yarrow
@Brachiator:
It’s already known they hacked GOP emails. It’s not merely a suggestion. The fact they haven’t released them (well, actually they have but only some), indicates they are being reserved for blackmail purposes.
I’ve been saying that it’s easy to explain to people using the world blackmail. “The Russians have Republican emails that they’re using to blackmail your Republican representatives!” Blackmail is a word everyone understands. The risks are obvious. Get it out there and make the Republicans deny it.
SiubhanDuinne
@lamh36:
That is genuinely wonderful news! Again, big congratulations to your sister and entire family! We share your pride and happiness.
gogol's wife
@schrodinger’s cat:
I have no insight into Putin, I’m afraid. All I know is that when he came into office, people were assuring themselves that he wasn’t that bad.
Yarrow
Well, well…
Perhaps giving them a courtesy heads up?
Jeffro
@Yarrow: It’s also a smart way to proactively get the country to wake up and recognize the threat of these Russian cyber/disinformation attacks. The government can point to any/all “incursions” and note how they are first steps towards disrupting Sweden “just like Putin did to the U.S.”
SiubhanDuinne
@germy:
Well okay then. I guess that settles that.
Yarrow
Oh, and then this:
China isn’t playing around.
Jeffro
@Chip Daniels:
Have you seen Garry Kasparov’s book, Winter Is Coming ? (The paperback version came out just a few weeks ago). That seems to be what he’s warning us about.
SiubhanDuinne
@Yarrow:
Holy fuck.
gogol's wife
@Brachiator:
I think your first sentence contradicts your second sentence. A weak U.S. doesn’t uphold NATO.
SatanicPanic
@Yarrow: huh, that’s… interesting
liberal
@p.a.:
Why would SA care about that, except for PR reasons? They’re defacto allies of Israel.
schrodinger's cat
@Calouste: Doesn’t Russia have more land than it knows what do with, even now? Their population and economy are in decline, I don’t see how this helps.
liberal
@Mike in dc:
Yeah, that’s a great idea! Let’s make Syria safe for ISIS and AQ!
Debbie1
@lamh36: I couldn’t have said it better myself. We, as citizens, will have our electoral tantrums and belittle our own party’s nominee, protest-vote or not vote at all. When the worst comes, the president must “save” us. Only, he’d better make it a spectacular last minute save or else it doesn’t count.
liberal
@Brachiator:
Agreed. The question is how to best exploit it as a weapon against Trump and his fellow fascists in Congress. But as far as keeping Trump out of office, the only thing I can see doing it is a videotape of him having sex with an underage girl.
Betty Cracker
@ChrisGrrr:
That’s pretty much where I’ve landed.
Brachiator
Trump takes a phone call from the president of Taiwan, and Trump lovers are happy that he is showing the Chinese that “there’s a new sheriff in town “(and this is a quote). They love that the US is going to be tough, kick China’s ass, make them give the US good deals.
Meanwhile, in the real world, the Chinese is not taking kindly to suggestions that the US will ignore past, settled diplomatic questions. From CNN
Conservative leaning news stations have been very quiet about the escalating Chinese reaction.
And this is before the inauguration.
Tazj
@Yarrow: “He’s not a politician and will shake things up.” I guess the Trumpists are right about that.
Corner Stone
@Yarrow:
Maybe leaving a revolver with one bullet left on the yoog boardroom table and silently walking out?
Hey, a girl can dream.
liberal
@Emma:
Nope. He was the titular head of the Democratic Party during the last eight years, which saw state-level organizations dying on the vine.
I mean, relatively speaking, he was a very good president. But as leader of the party, he left a lot to be desired.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
As a Revolutionary War buff, you may want to Google “Hamilton electors.” Some people are making a good case that our current situation is exactly the kind of thing the Electoral College was set up to prevent. Otherwise, why have it at all?
liberal
@Corner Stone: Wrong. Obama cannot fail; he can only be failed.
Steve in the ATL
@SiubhanDuinne: Buggy whips, washboards, landlines, Sheriff Joe….
Yarrow
@Brachiator: Yes, but when we go to war with China:
See, Trump will bring back the jobs.
liberal
@Brachiator:
Those stupid fucks are going to get us all killed.
Yarrow
@Corner Stone: Apparently he stayed 45 minutes and said nothing to the press on the way out as well.
liberal
@SiubhanDuinne: LOL.
Betty Cracker
@Yarrow: Just caught a snippet of the Diane Rehm show while running an errand, and the foreign policy analysts were just aghast at Trump’s bull-in-China act, saying it was an incredibly dangerous game and that they are pretty sure he has no clue what he’s doing on that front.
Brachiator
@gogol’s wife:
If I wasn’t clear, my main point is that the Russians don’t care about the Republicans or the American political scene except to the degree that they can subvert the US as a major international power.
If it would help them, the Russians would have released embarrassing Republican emails. And they don’t love Trump; they just find him to be a useful idiot.
liberal
@Napoleon: I think Obama has faults, unlike some people here, and “getting played by Trump” isn’t one of them.
I don’t think he’ll take visible decisive action because of other faults he has, though.
Betty Cracker
@Debbie1: I get what y’all are saying, but that’s what leadership is about. If you aspire to be POTUS, you know going in that tens of millions of the citizens you’ll tirelessly and honorably serve will be blithering assholes. It’s not about whether the country “deserves” saving. I’m certain PBO understands that, even if not everyone at Balloon Juice does.
Yarrow
@Betty Cracker: Yep. See the tweet I posted in the Cole thread. Trump is going to get us into a war with China. And we won’t win that.
SiubhanDuinne
@Steve in the ATL:
That implies that Sheriff Joe was actually useful at one time.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
Interesting. I will check it out.
I was also thinking that in the old days, Hamilton tipped the election against Burr and in favor of Jefferson because he could convince the electors that Burr was less honorable. It is much less debatable that Trump is deplorable, but today, the Republicans have no honor and are willing to stake the nation’s future on a scoundrel.
Jeffro
@liberal:
This is the thing that occasionally gives me panic attacks…things are only unthinkable until they happen, and then it’s too late to tell all these RW a$$holes “I told you so” (much less hunt down Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell)
Yarrow
@Brachiator: Republicans: party before country.
Corner Stone
@Yarrow: Maybe he was trying to explain to Trump how a revolver works but had to wait for Ivanka or Jared to come in and translate it so Donald could understand?
I’m grasping here, man! Don’t kill my dreams!!
tobie
@Yarrow: Count this as one of Trump’s many outrages: Some things, which should perhaps be hush-hush, are broadcast far and wide because Trump won’t move his transition team to the place allotted for transition teams in DC. It all has to be done in his building in New York, itself an architectural eyesore.
manyakitty
@liberal: Nah, they’ll applaud him for keeping it “fresh.”
Van Buren
@bk: Is it my imagination or did Trump also get questions pre-fed by FOX?
So if “illegal” maybe he should be locked up, also,too.
SiubhanDuinne
@Yarrow:
Possibly his visit to Trump Tower was related in some way to what POTUS is going to share with us this afternoon? (NOT a Cavuto mark.)
Mike in dc
@liberal:
It’s already safe for ISIS with Assad in charge. He has, by far, the highest body count of all the players in the country.
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
Sadly, I think that Trump knows exactly what he is doing. Look at his recent choice for ambassador to Israel.
Where Teddy Roosevelt said, “talk softly, and carry a big stick,” Trump is a bully who fundamentally does not believe in diplomacy. He has this fantasy that he can always force a deal that will be good for America. Trump is, of course, delusional. He has a shitty record as a deal maker in the business world. And yet his supporters are eating this stuff up. They think he’s strong and will force the world to bend a knee.
Yarrow
@SiubhanDuinne: Possibly! We can hope.
SiubhanDuinne
@Van Buren:
Not your imagination. I mentioned it upthread (SiubhanDuinne):
It got some coverage right around the time Kelly’s book came out, but none of the MSM connected the dots AFAIK.
Emma
@liberal: Maybe the damn party could start to do for itself. Maybe people could get off their tails, like Kay and others do, and push for change without waiting for a leader?
What is it with liberals and their need for a savior?
Betty Cracker
@Brachiator: The analyst said it sounds like Trump believes the “One China” policy is like an undesirable provision in a contract (subject to negotiation) rather than an expression of its own sovereignty that is pretty much sacred to China. He also mentioned that people who aren’t steeped in the diplomatic history of the modern US-China relationship would see that policy as hypocritical since we sell arms to Taiwan — something Trump mentioned in his post-call excuse-making. Rings true to me.
Brachiator
@liberal:
We are far, far, beyond this. Such a videotape would be cheered by Trump supporters because it would prove his virility.
Van Buren
@Yarrow: yeah, I’ve had an earworm of Elvis Costello singing “Shipbuilding” for about 2 weeks now.
Calouste
@schrodinger’s cat: Russia’s population would no longer be in decline if they add a few tens of millions of Ukrainians, Belarussians, etc.
gogol's wife
@Brachiator:
I never said they loved Trump. They looked at the two candidates and decided which one would be worse for the US, and worked to get him elected. Damaged US is good for them. My question is, doesn’t it bother the Republicans at all that to an outside observer they are clearly the more damaging option for their country?
gogol's wife
@Calouste:
Oh, they don’t count, you silly.
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
This stuff probably drives me crazier than it would someone with professional credentials, such as Adam Silverman.
Of course diplomacy sometimes appears to be hypocritical, but the alternatives would be so much worse. I don’t think that there is an American military base in Taiwan, but US fighters regularly land there, in part to underscore US interest in the area (like arms sales). China tolerates this because it prevents an intolerable and unpredictable military escalation. But China would no more tolerate a major US military buildup in the region than the US would permit China or even Russia to establish a military base in Baja California.
But Trump supporters are like the ignorant asswipe in the local bar who gets drunk and spouts delusional fantasies about all the ass kicking that the US could do if you just took the gloves off.
I used to think that Mitt Romney was the epitome of the Republican elitist bully. But the rumor is that Romney honestly thought that he could do service to his country by becoming secretary of state, but that Trump refused the job because Romney refused to apologize for his harsh assessment of Trump. If this is the case, then my estimation of Romney has risen.
On the other hand, I have nothing but contempt for Trump and everything I see so far about his brutish foreign policy vision only intensifies my disgust.
Ella in New Mexico
@rikyrah:
And the appointment of Montana Rep. Ryan Zinke to the Department of Interior will certainly facilitate the Yelstinizing of American public lands. He’s a big Kock American Lands Council guy. The think tank folks who fan the flames of the hopeful, useful idiots in the west, like the Bundy Clan…
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/12/trumps-pick-for-interior-secretary-has-links-to-neo-confederate-group-that-inspired-dylann-roof/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement
Miss Bianca
@Ella in New Mexico: Stuff like this is what I am dreading.
Brachiator
@gogol’s wife:
Short answer it that the Republicans don’t care about outside observers. Nor to they see that they are the more damaging option. They see Trump’s election as their clear opportunity to save the country from the amoral liberals.
Jess
Are any of you going to join the demonstrations at state capitals on Monday? I think it’s a good way to keep the pressure on and the outrage visible. Or so I hope.
Chris
@Chip Daniels:
@Yarrow:
Regrettably, I think I agree.
I had a fairly major change of mind in my foreign policy view at some point in the election season (though before Trump was actually elected). Pretty much since 9/11, my (Middle Eastern centric) view was always that al-Qaeda and assorted Sunni jihadists were the main threat and should be the main concern, and that nations like Iran and Syria and (by extension) their friends like Russia should be considered secondary adversaires at worst, potential allies at best. It didn’t seem unreasonable: after all, jihadists were the ones who drove the planes into the Twin Towers, and had been a way more unstable and violent force overall in the region than our nation-state adversaries.
Now, though? I’d say I’m pretty convinced that it’s Russia that’s our biggest national security threat.
Chris
@gogol’s wife:
No. If they think at it at all, I presume they rationalize it as “see, even the Russians knew Obama was a loser” and move on.
@Brachiator:
Sounds like a case of two irreconcilable egos clashing.
Miss Bianca
So, Hillary Clinton’s private email server made her not only made her a “security risk!!11!!” but cemented her status as World’s Greatest Monster.
Meanwhile, Donald Trump can be literally the patsy of a hostile foreign government and somehow that’s…not a security risk? Like, a real one?
Why do I even bother to try to make sense of it all…hell at this point, I’m starting to wonder why I even bother to get out of bed!
schrodinger's cat
@Calouste: True but they hate the Russians, most of the grad students I knew from former Soviet Union and eastern bloc countries absolutely hated Russia. Without exception. I know its only anecdata but still.
Brachiator
@Chris: RE: Romney refused to apologize for his harsh assessment of Trump. If this is the case, then my estimation of Romney has risen.
Not quite. It’s clear by now that Trump enjoys humiliating former rivals. He is also foolish enough to believe that it proves that he is some kind of alpha dog if he can be seen to make his opponents bend a knee.
His conception of manhood, of personhood, is severely flawed. Romney would gain nothing by playing Trump’s game.
Stan
@p.a.: What can we do? I’d sink one of their fucking submarines without saying a word. If they blame us they’re admitted we killed one of their subs and they’re not going to want to do that.
catclub
@Brachiator:
Since his wife is publicly (pubicly?)choosing not to sleep with him, I have doubts about that.
gvg
I think Congress should subpoena Trumps Tax returns from the IRS for the last 20 years. Trump won’t release them. Congress has the power to get them if they think of it and I think this is a valid need for American security that would apply to each and every President but especially when we have foreign interference . It should have been done before the election too and they ought to make a law that no one can even file to run without submitting the tax returns for a certain number of years. if they passed it with a veto proof majority, or did it now with Obama in office it would be effective and bipartisan. Of course if some of them are being blackmailed, we wouldn’t have the votes.
I don’t hold much hope from the electors. too many years decades where they are trained they should vote by the rules mean they are essentially useless.
And if they find too many conflicts from Trump, they should impeach and remove, then demand Pence’s tax return and even move down to Ryans. I don’t like either guy but Trump doesn’t seem to get loyalty to the country……he just doesn’t get loyalty except as something he is entitled to demand from others.
Tax returns wouldn’t reveal every problem a future candidate might have, but money is pretty significant with Trump. I really think looking at his will reveal Trump pretty clearly.
Stan
@Yarrow:
This is scary-similar to what they did in the Korean war. Taking out one of our drones is a nice low-threat threat. They know the US military will get the message, but nobody gets hurt. Very nicely calibrated.
In 1950, just before China entered the Korean War (and while Douglas MacArthur, another republican, was assuring everyone that they wouldn’t dare intervene) they sent a few of their soldiers into Korea, into frontline positions and allowed them to be captured. it was a message to us: ‘we’re here, we could intervene if we want, but we’re not going to hurt anyone yet”. The warning was of course ignored and shortly after a very big Chinese army was chasing us out of North Korea.
We ignore this signal at our peril.
albertZ
I can’t get over the feeling of deja vu all over again with the Trump and Bush 2000. Instead of hanging chads, we now have hacked emails. And instead of Iraq, there’s Syria, ISIS, Russia/Putin, China, etc. I know we had to go through 9/11 to get to Iraq, but that’s what has me spooked. Because we know now that Iraq was at the top of Bush’s agenda and they were just waiting for an excuse. So what are Trumps “unknown unknowns” that has him so readily dismissing Intel briefings and the Russian hacks. Trump takes office and the clock is ticking on the “next big event” which people will be called conspiracy nut cases for calling it “staged” even though we know that it’s coming… and somehow the Russians will be involved and Trump will get to play Commander in Chief and the media will be unified in their praise for President Trump…
Stan
@Yarrow:
Wow, he must have been briefing Ivanka because The Donald can’t pay attention that long.
Stan
@Yarrow:
I too believe the odds of an accidental, blunder-into-it war with someone are very very high right now. Like pants-shitting high.
But I don’t know why you think we’d lose. The only question would be how many people get hurt along the way. Not whether we’d win.
gvg
@Brachiator: People can have a fairly big ego and still think Trump is Terrible. With every Trump announcement i find myself wondering if the person taking a job that is sure to ruin his reputation is doing it because he thinks he is less bad than other potential candidates. In other words keep Trump from doing as much damage for a time until Trump inevitably blames him for something and replaces him. Most of them when I look at the history of, I can see that no, this guy really is a bad guy. Romney is one that I have thought was maybe trying to mitigate the damage. Secretary of State is the one area of that I am really dreading Trump damage the most. If someone sane gets it, we will all be better off. Its not looking so good now though. I think I am going to be sorry Romney didn’t get it.
Brachiator
@Stan:
I’m curious. What would a “win” after a nuclear war with China look like?
Chris
@Stan:
Whether or not Putin had anything to do with getting Trump elected… you’ve got to admire the fact that things couldn’t be going better for him if he’d planned them himself. Good enough that he’s got a friendly president with the brains of a sea cucumber about to take power in his biggest foreign adversary. But on top of that, said president is currently driving said adversary headfirst into a confrontation with the only other nation of comparable size and power. Ernst fucking Blofeld should be suing this guy for copyright infringement.
Chris
@albertZ:
Actually, I’m not sure. From what I understand, Bush’s Plan A was to basically re-start the arms race with Russia and China, this time with a focus on anti-ballistic missile defense and, slightly more worrisome, “bunker-busting” nukes. 9/11 reoriented him towards the Middle East, hence Iraq became the center stage.
But yeah, “ramp up international tensions in order to feed a ton of juicy contracts to your donors” was always the Bush administration’s foreign policy objective.
tybee
@Brachiator: it might fix global warming?
Brachiator
Trump True Believers do not believe that the current Chinese actions have anything to do with Trump. One of the comments at a Gizmodo story about the Chinese seizure of a US Navy device:
We are doomed.
The best description about Trump supporters came from Los Angeles talk radio host Brian Suits:
Doomed.
JustRuss
@Mnemosyne:
This. Setting up a Rube-Goldberg electoral system that allocates way too much influence to small states in the name of “stability”, then saying it can’t actually exercise any any judgement–even to choose the winner of the popular vote vs. an unqualified narcissist who was aided and abetted by a foreign power…I mean, the EC either has a function, in which case nullifying Trump’s victory is absolutely on the table, or it doesn’t, in which case it should be discarded.
Tim from MI
The Press has the “attention span of a dog on a squirrel farm”. Really? When it comes to Clinton ‘scandals’, their attention stays focused for years.