.
I endorse Catherine Rampell’s proposal in the Washington Post:
… Officers wielding gigantic guns guard Trump Tower, where President-elect Donald Trump conducts all transition business, and soon lots of presidential business, too. Shoppers patronizing the stores, cafes or public gardens inside must endure layers of security screening. Streets and sidewalks are barricaded; traffic is snarled; and costumed buskers milk money from the looky-loos obstructing the entrances to Gucci and Tiffany.
The challenges of securing this 58-story building in a high-density neighborhood will, by Inauguration Day alone, drain $35 million of local taxpayer money. Who knows the additional costs to commerce and property values?
The feds have thus far been stingy about footing the bill. Fortunately, I’ve come up with a solution that should warm the cockles of the president-elect’s heart: New York should use eminent domain to seize Trump Tower.…
Eminent domain — the constitutionally enshrined government power to take private property in exchange for just compensation — was traditionally reserved for road-and-school-style public projects. But thanks to a 2005 Supreme Court ruling, perpetuating a line of earlier decisions, governments may now use this power to condemn property if they can devise virtually any use that better promotes “economic development” — kicking out poor people and building luxury condos, for example.
Trump loves eminent domain, especially this ruling. He thinks it’s wonderful. And there’s no question why: Throughout his career, Trump has lobbied governments to seize properties from those who refuse to sell when he wants to build amusement parks, golf courses, office buildings and parking lots on their land. He believes expansive use of eminent domain is necessary to promote economic growth and “beautification,” and that it’s even a good deal for property owners who don’t want to sell.
“When eminent domain is used on somebody’s property, that person gets a fortune,” he has declared…
New York officials probably won’t take my advice, since seizing Trump’s property might appear partisan. (Manhattanites voted against Trump by about 10 to 1.) But, according to almost every eminent-domain scholar and land-use lawyer I consulted, if the city tried my strategy, courts would probably uphold it…
Baud
Interesting. Conservatives loathe that decision.
rikyrah
Morning Everyone???
Baud
@rikyrah: Morning, rikyrah
Patricia Kayden
Trump’s meltdown would be a joy to behold if his property was taken over via eminent domain. Fun idea but not going to happen.
Morzer
@Baud:
Could we go a step further and argue that the body of the president belongs to the nation, seize it, place it within a concrete foundation and then build the Traitor Trump public urinal over him? I mean, it’s eminent and it’s asserting domain over him, so….
Baud
@Morzer: Make Urine Great Again!
Morzer
@Baud:
I think we’ve just found the slogan for Baud 2020 – and your signature policy, Mr President! Piss Off Trump And Piss On Trump – it’s brilliant, glorious, worthy of your noble blend of warrior-scholar and patriot-poet! Can I please be Your Unparalleled Bigly Magnificentitude’s ambassador to the newly independent country of Hawai’i?
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: Until it works in favor of something they want.
Baud
@Morzer: Are you qualified? What oil companies have you run?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: I’m old enough to remember when Republicans hated Russia, you know like 4 years ago.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: My Urine is the best, very classy!
BillinGlendaleCA
@Morzer: We discussed that yesterday, the slogan for Baud!2020! is “Fuck you, Baud!2020!”.
Morzer
@Baud:
I’ve never run an oil company per se, but I believe I could ..nay, would be honored to… grease your noble undercarriage, Glorious President For Make Presidenting Glorious Again Baud.
Morzer
@BillinGlendaleCA:
It pours goldly over everything!
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA:
@Morzer:
The Golden Shower at Trump Tower!
Morzer
@Baud:
I have to admit that I’ve been laughing uncontrollably at rumors that Donny Putinobitch is contemplating Woody Johnson as a possible ambassador.
Baud
@Morzer: Are you at least an agent of a hostile government? Give me something to work with.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud:
I used to work for Satan, would that count?
Schlemazel
@BillinGlendaleCA:
It would be helpful if you were Satan himself
Morzer
@Baud:
I thought that went without saying! So far I’ve sold secrets to Russia, China, Russia-China, China-Russia, Chicken Kiev and Massachusetts.
weaselone
Why is NY continuing to foot the bill for security? It’s one thing if the President shows up for a visit, but on a permanent basis? I’d just pull back all the security and tell the feds to handle it. I might also rip up all the streets surrounding the tower and replace them with a 20 ft wall, but that’s just me.
Baud
@Morzer: Excellent. Except Massachusetts. I’m still a patriot.
@BillinGlendaleCA: Did you pick up any useful skills?
Morzer
@weaselone:
Someone’s got to keep the Minotaur in the labyrinth. Dear God, man, do you really want that slobbering beast to get loose among the civilized population?!
JPL
@Morzer: Massachusetts is a disqualifier.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: I did IT support for lawyers.
Morzer
@Baud:
I am prepared to betray my country for cash, but I draw the line at working for a Patriot! Even we mercenary, amoral scum have some shreds of self-respect left!
Morzer
@BillinGlendaleCA:
You are obviously qualified to do Cousin IT work for the thing that squats on Donny’s cranium.
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA: I’m so sorry. I didn’t know.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Omnes’ response was “You poor bastard”.
ETA: Now you know why I used to drink.
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA: I’m trying to figure out how you stopped.
satby
Wait, I did IT support for lawyers AND financial traders at the CME/ CBOT. That gives me some evil cred right?
OzarkHillbilly
@Morzer: I’m not sure the citizens of NYC count as actually civilized.
Morzer
@OzarkHillbilly:
Relative to Trump, even the denizens of NYC have a claim to be part of civilization.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: I quit doing IT support for lawyers, silly.
bemused
I read about Joy Behar’s quip on Trump putting hammer and sickle on our flag and thought an oil rig belongs there too. Now that would make a great hat, t-shirt, bumper sticker:
MAGA and new US flag with hammer, sickle and oil rig, perhaps with a gold background.
satby
So something nice I get to do today: my eye doctor’s office and the store it’s located in are doing a free basic eye exam / basic glasses event for people from two homeless shelters here in S.Bend. We’re expecting twenty, so we’re going in two hours early to do them before the regular day starts. Should be hectic, but rewarding. I’m looking forward to happy people today.
OzarkHillbilly
@satby: You make soap and take care of sick and injured dogs. That’s all the evil you need
Baud
@satby: Obviously, you are making up for your past IT work. Will you remain sufficiently evil for my administration if you keep this up?
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA: Good man.
satby
@OzarkHillbilly: But I’m capable of sooo much more. When I’ve had sufficient coffee.
Morzer
@satby:
Making soap of sick and injured dogs is a pretty impressive entry in the Evil Enough For Baud stakes.
OzarkHillbilly
@Morzer: But Trump is of NYC. Would not a civilized populace have lanced this pustule of ego and avarice?
satby
@Morzer: ? hey, ixnay on the secret ingredient disclosures.
Morzer
@OzarkHillbilly:
Well, they probably kept him around to look good by contrast. After all, he always seemed to be a slimy small-fingered toad, but essentially irrelevant, so what could possibly go wrong?
satby
@Baud: as long as I get a continuous supply of caffeine crack.
Botsplainer
Easy solution would be for DiBlasio to nut up and pull NYPD presence and open up traffic lanes, refusing to make allowances rather than so disrupt his city. I’d state “the American people provide him a house with all necessary security measures – let him live there; I have a city to run”.
Commercial tenants probably are suffering – how long until they bolt?
Baud
@Botsplainer: He’s not president yet.
BillinGlendaleCA
@OzarkHillbilly: I think he was seen more as an amusement among the NYC locals.
OzarkHillbilly
@Morzer: Just one more reason to hate New Yorkers.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly: I can’t hate a city that blue.
Central Planning
@Baud: If you find Morzer lacking, I just want to say I once bought oil for my car, and then I left the old oil with a garage. Suckers for taking it. Clearly I’m qualified.
Baud
@satby: Why would caffeine make you evil?
Botsplainer
@OzarkHillbilly:
Part of me really wants him to spend most of his time at Trump Tower, so that when he tweets an epic world-threatening piece of idiocy after fumbling something into a violent crisis, a howling mob can storm the tower and drag him out kicking and screaming into the street before ripping him limb from limb live and on the ultimate reality TV – all news channels. The crisis would be averted, and I’d have DVR material for a lifetime.
Botsplainer
@Baud:
He’ll expect the city to pay for this shit from the moment he is sworn in.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: I don’t know, they could have drowned him when he was just a baby. They could have run over him with a car when he was a teenager. They could have given him the clap during the Vietnam War. They could have robbed, raped, and murdered him with one of their super predators in the 90s. Sooooooo many missed opportunities.
Baud
@Botsplainer: True. That’s when de Blasio should say no.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly: Missouri could have voted for Hillary. As every state should have.
Morzer
@Botsplainer:
I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“A vast and Trumpless tower of stone
Stands in the desert…”
Morzer
http://www.ginandtacos.com/2016/12/12/the-anna-karenina-principle/
Baud
@Morzer: Nothing that wasn’t known before the election.
rikyrah
@satby:
You and those doing this are good people, satby.
OzarkHillbilly
@Botsplainer: You have a dark, sadistic, and bloody streak of mean in you. I like it.
sharl
Hahaha, and inspired idea from Ms. Rampel. In both the comments in that WaPo piece and the responses to her tweet, the Trumpkins are not happy, no they are not.
rikyrah
@Morzer:
True that. I was talking with a co-worker yesterday about this. And, it just makes me angry all over again. I am still in the anger stage of grief, and can’t get past it.
debbie
@Morzer:
This would make a great t-shirt.
Morzer
@Baud:
Not well enough known, apparently. Some people just won’t be told and have to learn the hard way.
Morzer
@rikyrah:
I’d channel that anger at the complacent mediocrity of the Democratic party that fell asleep at the switch. Get involved locally and make a difference. Building something always feels better to me than just being angry and raging at others and yourself for failures that really aren’t your fault.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: That’s Misery to those of us who live here, and sadly no, the majority of people here are constitutionally incapable of voting for a smart, intelligent, well informed, thoughtful, and foresighted woman, to say nothing about voting for a black man with the same qualities. We like our sparrows and curtain rods.
debbie
@Botsplainer:
I can’t believe the tenants of Trump Tower, especially the businesses, aren’t upset about all the disruption. Five bucks says Trump jacks up the rents, saying the disruption is actually a positive thing and good for business.
Baud
@Morzer: They’ll learn the hard way, and their first instinct will be to blame us. We need to be ready to say we’re having none of that in the strongest possible terms.
Morzer
@debbie:
Didn’t he up the rents on the space that he graciously made available to the RNC?
debbie
@Botsplainer:
NYC should then rescind all the tax breaks they’ve doled out to him over the years.
BillinGlendaleCA
@OzarkHillbilly:
That’s what my dad called it, he grew up in Springfield.
satby
@rikyrah: Thanks!
Let me plug that if anyone has glasses they don’t use they can donate them at any LenCrafters store, because they get recycled and used to provide glasses to people in need all over the world (assuming they’re still good. If not, they’re recycled for the materials and that money supports the outreach.)
Iowa Old Lady
@satby: That sounds like a rewarding start to the day.
MomSense
Oh my god. Aleppo.
BillinGlendaleCA
@debbie: Of course he will, they’re already advertising that it’s the safest building in NYC due to his presence there.
Baud
@satby: Thanks. I have a ton.
debbie
@Morzer:
I’m not sure. He certainly wouldn’t have given them a good deal. He saves those for himself.
BillinGlendaleCA
@MomSense: What’s a Leppo?
debbie
@satby:
Funny, I found my stash of old glasses over the weekend. Thanks for the great suggestion!
Morzer
Morzer
It seems to me that Russia’s purchase of the GOP was entirely unsurprising. When a party signals – and has done for years – that it is available to the highest bidder, sooner or later a foreign buyer is going to turn up. Putin might be a little surprised at how cheaply he was able to close the deal, but the possibility of that deal wouldn’t have shocked him in the least.
OzarkHillbilly
@Morzer: My only disagreement with that is where these people belong. S/He says obscurity, I say Death Row.
Taylor
@OzarkHillbilly:
Fuck you. I remember walking through Union Square after 9/11, where people were in mourning while the fucking rednecks were asking for a race war against the towel heads.
The one good thing that Trump did during the primaries was to call Cruz on his hate of “godless” NYC.
Fuck you.
Morzer
@BillinGlendaleCA:
A creature from the old time, famous for biting Johnson’s Ass.
OzarkHillbilly
@BillinGlendaleCA: Springfield is pretty damned miserable.
Morzer
@OzarkHillbilly:
Yup. Obama’s big mistake was not bringing the Bush cabal to justice and stripping the bark off them in the bright light of day. We should never make that mistake again.
BillinGlendaleCA
@OzarkHillbilly: Yup, dad went into the Navy and never went back.
Kay
After Trump, no President will divest to avoid conflicts of interest, because why should they? Trump didn’t.
Same with tax returns. And press conferences. And lying, of course. The President lying constantly is okay now. He lies as much now as he did during the campaign.
We’re watching him lower standards every day and that won’t just apply to him- it will apply to everyone who comes after him. That’s the Trump Effect. He’s not even in office yet, either. There are thousands of standards, big and small, that he has yet to lower.
OzarkHillbilly
@Taylor: Get a sense of humor. If you can’t do that, fuck off.
Jeffro
Love Rampell…keep poking sticks in Orangemandias’ eyes, Ms. R!
And then on the other hand, we have the usually stalwart Eugene Robinson today, making about the weakest sauce I’ve seen in a while:
Even when talking about Russia helping Trump, apparently we’ve got to talk about ‘original sin’, servers, and emails. Good lord, Gene.
OzarkHillbilly
@Morzer: And he just made sure the Senate torture report will never be destroyed but also will never see the light of day.
Morzer
@Kay:
It depends on what the next president does. If (s)he makes Obama’s mistake and lets Trump and his criminal cabal escape unscathed, then the damage will be lasting. If, however, the new president brings the hammer down and does so publicly and without mercy, there’s a chance that Trump will be remembered as an example of how crime doesn’t pay.
OzarkHillbilly
@Kay:
Don’t worry Kay. 4 years is plenty of time.
MomSense
@Jeffro:
Nate Silver has been confidently saying it was Comey.
Morzer
@OzarkHillbilly:
I do wonder whether that was part of a deal to get the intelligence agencies to actually investigate Russia’s purchase of Trump and interference in the election. Or maybe Obama was just tidying his desk.
Weaselone
@Kay:
True, except for one minor detail. Standards have only been permanently lowered for Republicans.
Baud
@MomSense: I believe the media was our # 1 enemy. Comey couldn’t have been successful if the media had treated Clinton fairly.
OzarkHillbilly
@Morzer: It will take more than a President. It will take a House and a Senate that will back him/her up. I am sure those factors worked into Obama’s decision not to.
Morzer
@OzarkHillbilly:
It’s certainly true that the Democrats were as useless and feeble as ever. Still, I think Obama might have achieved something using the Justice Department, judiciously applied.
raven
@BillinGlendaleCA: Home of Bass Pro! (and, going way back, Campbell66, Humpin to Please)!
BillinGlendaleCA
@Morzer: …and the press will label it as a partisan witch hunt.
Baud
@Morzer: Agree. We should move right because the right is strong.
OzarkHillbilly
@Morzer: I don’t know, The power politics of Washington are so convoluted it baffles me. Trump will soon find out that pissing on the CIA was not a career move.
Morzer
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Well, the alternative was that they would make the Bush cabal respectable and legitimate, which has hardly advanced the cause of decency or sanity in America. The best antidote to that was a very public series of trials with the evidence laid out clearly for all to see.
rikyrah
@Kay:
Tell that truth, Kay.
Morzer
@OzarkHillbilly:
I have hopes that some judicious tweets might make Donny actually try and lick the third rail of politics, just to prove that he can.
OzarkHillbilly
@Morzer: I agree. I think he had his eyes on other things and decided that was a battle he was better off not fighting. A decision that while understandable, I think will come back to haunt us in years to come.
Central Planning
@BillinGlendaleCA: The little-known sixth Marx brother?
Kay
@OzarkHillbilly:
His administration missed their first hard deadline, BTW. That was the press conference. He’s making excuses on Twitter- “busy!” The promises are worthless. That’s what he is- it isn’t going to change- and they’ll all take their cues from him. He lacks character. People don’t pick it up at 70, and they don’t absorb it thru osmosis from subordinates. Even if he has a high quality subordinate that person will either lower his or her own standards to fit the boss or quit.
It should be interesting to watch, the whole country waiting for something that isn’t there to magically appear.
Morzer
@Kay:
If I were given to apocalyptic prophecies, I’d be tempted to proclaim that a mad King led to the creation of the US and a mad King will be its destruction.
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: Have you ever been to the Bass Pro there? It boggles the mind, a monument to American consumerism. Fun if you have right frame of mind. Impoverishing if not.
p.a.
Fux News on at the tire place. Gotta hand it to ’em- they’re implying a connection between lower life expectancies for WWC males and PPACA! Evil genius is too weak a description for them. Where’s the meteor when you need it? Tire shop let me change channels.
Ian
@OzarkHillbilly:
Fuck you. Did you miss the part were we voted 10-1 against him?
Morzer
@p.a.:
Perhaps FOX is Rupert Murdoch’s secret scheme to kill off his own generation as quickly as possible so that his undead ass can be the lord of all it surveys.
Baud
@p.a.: I think there is a connection. WWC hatred of all things Obama causes them to hate the PPACA, which creates anxiety which lowers their life expectancy.
p.a.
@p.a.: a literal 1 minute search provides this:
More proof of Nobama’s time travel mojo…
OzarkHillbilly
@Kay: His cabinet agencies will be kingdoms unto themselves, answering to no one but the head of their agency and he answering to no one but God, because Trump will be “too busy” having his Presidential portrait painted to pay attention to anything they do. I seriously wonder how often he will hold Cabinet meetings and who will actually run them because we all know he won’t bother attending most of them.
FlipYrWhig
@p.a.: Because of the death panels?
Morzer
@Baud:
That sounds like an argument for creating a superhero franchise built around PPACA-Man. Two or three good sequels and we could have a yuuge lead in every poll.
Kay
@Jeffro:
I loathe Comey, think he turned that race, but I’m still not willing to let Democrats off the hook for not knowing they were weak in OH, MI and WI.
They lost that entire tier of states, state level including Illinois, for God’s sake. They should have known they were weak going in. They had 6 years to figure it out. I was afraid it would spread to a national race and it did. Scott Walker winning Wisconsin wasn’t a clue? Democrats cannot be a national political Party and ignore states. It won’t work. The country is composed of states. There is something structurally wrong with this Party. There is something standing in the way of them seeing the obvious. I don’t know what it is, but it’s something. It’s protecting turf or the consultant class or something, because it makes no sense.
Baud
@Morzer:
PPACA-Man and his faithful sidekick Pajama Boy (remember him?)
FlipYrWhig
@OzarkHillbilly: See, I think about the only aspect of the job that Trump will like is having a bunch of important people sitting around a table where they hang on his every decision and he can milk the moment by praising and/or trashing them. That’s just The Apprentice. He’ll get to play TV boss in real life.
Morzer
@Baud:
We could even bring in Jude’s Muslim sister – Sharia Law. I hear she’s massive in Michigan.
BillinGlendaleCA
@OzarkHillbilly: That’s VP Dense’s job.
OzarkHillbilly
@Ian: Did you lose your sense of humor too? Jesus, you New Yorkers sure have gotten sensitive in this new age of Trump.
Raven
@OzarkHillbilly: no, I taught at SWMS before it was built
Baud
@Raven: Why are you capitalized all of a sudden?
Kay
@Morzer:
He’s such a dope, too. He thinks saying he’s giving it to the sons is somehow legit. Like every crooked leader in history ever. The sons are like the stereotype of “corrupt dictator” :)
Morzer
@Kay:
Too many Democrats seem to suffer from a belief that their virtue is so perfectly obvious that they don’t need to do anything more than turn up, bathe the world in their light and wait to see how much they won by. They extend this belief to candidates who are obviously flawed and are enraged and amazed when people outside the Democratic bubble are much less impressed by what they see and hear. Until the Democrats take a much harder look at themselves and what they are selling, they are likely to take more beatings from the GOP.
Raven
@Baud: phone
OzarkHillbilly
@Raven: Too bad. If you’re ever driving by, you might consider stopping in and wasting a few hours. I’m sure they have just the rod you’ve always wanted but never knew it.
Kay
I’m going to Toledo tonight for some regional planning meeting for Democrats. I’ll let you know if I hear anything halfway interesting.
I myself will be haranguing them on “the states” because that is my job :)
Baud
@Morzer: We spend 90% of our time taking a hard look at ourselves. The problem is that we don’t agree internally on what to sell.
@Raven: Gotcha.
Baud
@Kay: Go get ’em, Kay.
JMG
@Kay: It’s a simple dilemma and an unsolvable one. The Democrats lost in these places because they would not and cannot (for fear of losing more votes than they win) assuage the racial anxieties of white people for whom that identity was their last piece of inner security and self-perceived social status. How do the Dems address that without repudiating equal justice under law? In opposition, it’s possible to point out “you’re being conned. Your life and your community are worse, not better now” but in a time of relative peace and prosperity, people voted to scratch their real itch — a reprehensible one.
If white voters put being white first above all things, then our country is fucked and it’s not the Democrat’s fault. It’s white people’s fault.
Raven
@OzarkHillbilly: I go to the one near here, I guess they bought Cabelas too, I want to go there!
OzarkHillbilly
@Kay: Nice to know you’ve got our backs.
Elizabelle
Morning, all.
I think I’m still in denial stage. Hoping something massive will happen and the Electoral College will throw the election to Hillary, undeniable winner of the popular vote.
It strikes me as intensely unpatriotic to be standing by as someone who is going to tear our nation and foreseeable future to shreds takes the nation’s highest office.
The dog caught the car. We all stand by.
Morzer
@Baud:
We spend a lot of time squabbling over surface issues, but we don’t generally go much beyond our various comfort zones. We tend to blame the voters, rather than asking whether we might be the ones offering them too little, or candidates who simply don’t have enough credibility/charisma to win. We seem perpetually a day late and a dollar short on matters like gerrymandering, because we’ve let the statehouses slip away. How did we come to this as a party? We need a much better answer than just blaming the electorate.
OzarkHillbilly
@Raven: I think I heard that. Their Nebraska store is just to die for! (from what I’ve heard).
PJ
@JMG: But those states voted for Obama twice, so it’s not simply racial animosity or tribal fear of loss of status. Either some of those Obama voters decided not to turn out for Hillary, and/or some of those Obama voters decided to vote for Trump. Either way, the Democrats have to do better next time – which means organizing and winning at the state level. (I mean, this is obvious, the Democrats have been doing poorly at the state level outside of the coasts for a while now).
Ian
@OzarkHillbilly:
Well you see, in NY, when you bash NY, the correct and only response is “fuck you.” It’s a New Yorker thing.
Another Scott
@JMG: The racial animus is there, of course, but I think over-emphasizing it is learning the wrong lesson. Obama is black, remember? He won twice. If Hillary’s loss can be boiled down to race, then Obama couldn’t have won. It doesn’t make sense.
I think Comey and “ABC” – Anyone but Clinton – had a lot more to do with her loss than racial issues.
The race was close in 3 states – closer than it should have been. But all the polls for 18 months or more (except for that outlier Dornsife/USC poll) were saying that she was going to win easily. Even with her huge campaign bank account, her campaign had to make choices. We were all saying for months that she was doomed unless she also had a Senate (and ideally a House) that would work with her. Her working to expand the map was a reasonable choice to make.
“Yeah, she won, but she was stupid not to take advantage of Donnie’s weakness and expand the map! Now we’ve got another 4/8 years of obstruction in the House and Senate and nothing will get done!!1”
20:20 hindsight and all that.
Cheers,
Scott.
Baud
@Morzer: Why can’t we blame the electorate? The GOP wins by campaigning against coastal liberals. If we are to follow their model, shouldn’t we identify a blameworthy portion of the electorate to fight against?
MomSense
@Baud:
I agree completely with you. This has been brewing for a long time. I think we should follow every horrific article of the NYT and every terrible thing any Republican pol says or does with “The Russians must have some really good dirt on you.”
BillinGlendaleCA
@Raven: My grandmother was a SWMS alum, back when it was a normal school.
Baud
@PJ:
@Another Scott:
Race isn’t the only factor, but I don’t think Obama won twice is a response. Obama shed voters in 2012, and that trend continued this year. And racial issues really weren’t as dominant in 2012 as they were this year.
Morzer
@Baud:
Better to identify an enemy that you can lead the electorate against. But, if you aren’t credible as a warrior against the common enemy, trying to present yourself as one will lose you major points for insincerity.
Baud
@Morzer: Once again, however, we don’t agree on the common enemy, so we can’t be credible.
JMG
@Another Scott: Fair comment, but Obama won in 2008 because people were desperate. The world was falling apart in a most visible way, to wit, the value of a voter’s home was crashing, and the Bush administration was a visible failure on all fronts, He won in 2012 because the world had stopped falling apart. People don’t SAY they’re voting for racial reasons, and they may not even think they are, but the subconscious is a powerful thing. Read a really good piece over at Vox in which reporter talked to people in Kentucky who got insurance through Obamacare. All voted for Trump. All cited “change” as reason. Many said people poorer than themselves (none was more than a step away from financial disaster themselves) got too much help. All did not believe Republicans would end Obamacare, or at least take their own insurance away.
How does one square that circle of irrationality? Beats me.
Morzer
@Baud:
I suspect that the vast majority of Democrats (pipe down there, Senator Booker!) could have agreed on corrupt high finance and Wall St swindlers as a “good” enemy. Unfortunately, our chosen nominee and would-be cleanser of the temple never quite managed to explain those wretched speeches of hers in a way that made much sense. Watching Trump outflank her on Wall St, of all topics, was genuinely painful and embarrassing.
BillinGlendaleCA
@JMG: Romney was selling dog food, Trump sold steak. The voters went for the steak, no dog whistles.
Baud
@Morzer: Don’t buy it. Clinton was proposing new regulations on banks. People ignored it just like they are ignoring all of Trumps Goldman Sachs appointments. No one cares about speeches, except as a way to beat up a Dem.
Morzer
@JMG:
“If we want things to stay as they are, things will have to change.”
I think Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa might have (unwittingly!) understood those Trump voters better than anyone else.
p.a.
@Baud: How much was O’s big 2008 win a result of 8 years of W incompetence and Grampy Walnut’s weakness as a candidate? The self-aware racists stayed home, the I’m-not-a-racist racists held their noses and voted for the Ni*clang*. After ’08, a reversion to the mean.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Morzer: I really don’t think Trump outflanked HRC on Wall Street, that was brewing at the bottom, but the big thing was other things.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Where you have your email server is VERY IMPORTANT.
Baud
@p.a.: Obama’s also a very charismatic candidate, but I think he was definitely helped by the circumstances. And even in 2008, he only got 53% of the vote.
Morzer
@Baud:
Yes, but what did everyone know about Clinton and Wall St? That she gave speeches to the fat-cats behind closed doors – and refused to release the transcripts! When asked why, she came up with a variety of unconvincing bletherings and left everyone wondering just what she could have said that was so bad. No amount of worthy policy documents on her website was going to overcome the impression that she wasn’t being straight with the voters.
PaulWartenberg2016
If I were a New Yorker, I’d rather fight over seizing Trump Tower under eminent domain than waste millions for additional security to fuel his vanity.
Baud
@Morzer: That’s the media. Just like they swiftboated war hero Kerry. Or turned Gore into a liar.
BillinGlendaleCA
@BillinGlendaleCA: I think the best parallel election to 2016 was 1968. Trump ran the Nixon playbook.
OzarkHillbilly
@Ian: Ah got it, my bad. I used to know that, I had known some New Yorkers when I lived up in STL, but ever since I moved out here I’ve lost all touch with that.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Morzer:
That was the email thing, not the speeches. No one gave a damn about the speeches.
PJ
@Baud: Do you really think that if you asked most people, including Democrats, they could have identified any of Hillary’s banking policies? I sure couldn’t have, and that’s a failure of messaging. Trump’s messaging was clear, if idiotic, deceitful, and bigoted. What people remembered about Hillary and the banks is that she took hundreds of thousands of dollars from them. She could have avoided that problem, particularly when she knew she was running for President, but she thought it she could ignore it and everyone would look past it.
Elizabelle
@Baud: agree.
Not into beating on Hillary. People wanted the magic beans. This was not an intelligent decision. Some may see that in time.
In hindsight, I do kind of wonder about putting Bernie in as VP.
Citizen Alan
@Baud:
Libertarian conservatives loathe that opinion. Business conservatives are fine with it because they want the government to seize valuable property and sell it to them for a song.
Morzer
@Baud:
No, it isn’t. The media didn’t force Clinton to make those speeches. The media didn’t force Clinton to offer nothing remotely convincing as a reason for not releasing the transcripts. We have to stop making excuses for fuck-ups that were self-inflicted and avoidable. If you are going to run as your party’s standard-bearer in the biggest game of all, you have a responsibility to do a damn sight better than Clinton did on this issue. Giving the speeches was a rookie mistake; failing to find a convincing defense for them was worse. As for the refusal to release the transcripts, the idea that Clinton didn’t have control over the text of her own speeches was a great laugh-line, but an insult to the voters’ intelligence when offered as a serious assertion. And it got worse from there – which was entirely predictable.
OzarkHillbilly
@BillinGlendaleCA: Mine’s in my attic. No basements for me!
waysel
@Kay: Have you already forgotten the gutting of the VRA in 2013? That alone turned this election. Do you think campaigning harder in those states would have made a difference?
rikyrah
@JMG:
Uh huh
Uh huh
.
So, the 50 votes that they’ve taken to get rid of Obamacare….what were those votes about. .
See, they’re ok with OTHER people’s insurance being taken away…you know THOSE PEOPLE…as long as they get to keep theirs.
These are the stupid muthaphuckas who didn’t believe that they got insurance through Obamacare.
You can’t. Phuck ’em.
PJ
@Elizabelle: For many American voters, whom to vote for is not a decision they reach on some kind of rational basis. Democrats have to be aware of this and reach enough of these people so that they can actually win elections (or at least reach the people who can’t be bothered to vote because “it doesn’t change anything and they don’t care about me and my problems anyway”.)
debbie
Has anyone asked Trump whether his admiration for Putin extends to his intentional and ruthless killing of Syrian civilians?
rikyrah
Republicans Have Eroded Trust in the Media
by Steven Waldman
December 13, 2016 8:52 AM
There’s a rising chorus of people saying that fake news took hold because the “mainstream media” had lost the trust of the American people. “Who’s to blame for fake news? America’s real newsrooms,” declared a column in the Washington Post.
I’ve spent a good part of my career pointing out flaws in mainstream media, including the possibility that fewer reporters would lead to lower quality and erode trust.
But that is not mostly what has happened here.
Let’s look at the numbers. We have indeed seen a dramatic drop in public trust for the press – from 55% who trusted the press in 1999 down to 32% in 2016. And there’s been a particularly large drop recently, from 40% in 2015 to 32% this year.
Elizabelle
@PJ: have you not noticed the markets cheering the defeat of someone who was going to regulate away their Wild West inclinations?
Hillary, and Democrats, are for common sense regulation. The CPFB. I get that.
If the morons who voted for Trump don’t see the absolute self-interest in leveling the playing field….. and they didn’t
They voted magical beans and fantasy thinking. Times may not be good enough they get away with it.
rikyrah
With full Russian coup, Trump is now a threat to sovereignty of the United States
Spandan Chakrabarti
December 11, 2016
There are many reasons why Donald Trump cannot legitimately serve as president of the United States, even if we leave aside his devastating loss in the popular vote. Trump’s clear attempts to help his business from his position of governmental power, his payments from foreign governments. his blowing off of intelligence briefings, his monumental screw-ups on international diplomacy and his transition team’s coup attempt of the US government by installing foxes to guard henhouses are just a few such reasons.
But the biggest reason is this: it has now been conclusively proven and accepted by the CIA that Russia deliberately helped Donald Trump win the election. In explosive reports over the last couple of days, the Washington Post and the New York Times have reported on not only Russian goal of helping Trump but their method: hacking both DNC and RNC emails, but only releasing DNC (and Clinton campaign) emails through Wikileaks. I have chosen my words carefully here in saying Russia released the emails through Wikileaks rather than to Wikileaks: I want to leave no doubt that there is no longer reason to believe that Wikileaks is anything more or less than an effective propaganda arm of Kremlin.
Combine this with the fact that Russians generated hundreds and thousands of fake news and clickbait sites and stories to push this propaganda (and other complete lies) on American social media channels in what now appears to clearly be a concerted, coordinated effort.
Morzer
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Plenty of people did give a damn about the speeches – and Clinton simply never came up with a convincing response. The whole disaster helped Trump build the narrative that Clinton was untrustworthy. Sure, by the end the emails debacle and Comey had taken center stage, but the speeches did real damage to Clinton’s credibility and to one of her bigger ideas – which was reform of Wall St and the banking system. I honestly don’t know how the campaign let Clinton keep trotting out the same non-response to the same question, but it was a wretched performance. You can blame the media for many things – but I really don’t see how they were unfair on this one.
rikyrah
Here’s the Newsweek Story by Kurt Eichenwald
Elizabelle
@waysel: Agreed. First election without Voting Rights protections. There’s your margin right there.
Village won’t accurately report. Saint John Roberts. Fair umpire, just calling balls and strikes. Like that straight shooter, James Comey.
rikyrah
Clear enough now?
$500 billion Exxon deal quashed when US sanctions hit Russia over Ukraine.Trump/Tillerson could reverse—via @maddow
— Bradd Jaffy (@BraddJaffy) December 10, 2016
rikyrah
Trump is simply using his cabinet as an extension of his real estate development expansion abroad or in renegotiating his current leases.
— Jeff Gauvin (@JeffersonObama) December 13, 2016
Citizen Alan
@OzarkHillbilly:
Yeah, not to knock Obama at all because he played the best hand he was dealt, but when they made the decision to “look forward rather than back,” I said then and there that the very next Republican president would make Dubya look like a saint.
Weaselone
@Morzer:
Seriously, speeches? Trump didn’t even release his tax returns, let alone transcripts of his speeches. Oh, what? You didn’t even realize that Trump had given speeches to fat cats?
rikyrah
From TOD:
The Thin Black Duke
Hey.
The problem isn’t what Hillary did or didn’t do.
The problem is the people who couldn’t vote because of the GOP, and until we address that problem, nothing is going to change.
rikyrah
Trump taps Texas’ Rick Perry for agency Perry vowed to eliminate
12/13/16 08:40 AM
By Steve Benen
Towards the beginning of the Republican presidential nominating process last year, Donald Trump and former Texas Gov. Rick Perry (R) didn’t quite see eye to eye. Trump, for example, said of Perry in July 2015, “He should be forced to take an IQ test before being allowed to enter the GOP debate.” A week later, Trump added, “He put on glasses so people think he’s smart. People can see through the glasses.”
Apparently, however, Perry is smart enough to join Trump’s cabinet.
President-elect Donald Trump has selected former Texas Gov. Rick Perry … to be secretary of energy, two sources familiar with the transition process told NBC News on Monday night.
Perry, a rival of Trump’s during the Republican presidential nominating campaign, met with Trump for about 90 minutes earlier in the day at Trump Tower in New York.
It’s quite an evolution for the former governor. During his presidential candidacy last year, Perry went further than nearly anyone in condemning Trump, calling the television personality “a barking carnival act” who represents a “cancer on conservatism,” and who would send the Republican Party to the “graveyard.”
Less than a year later, however, the Texan started hinting that he was looking for a job on Trump’s team.
mai naem mobile
Gawd ,another post election discussion about what went wrong instead of what to do to defend and attack stuff now. Keep in mind, the election was barely lost and HRC won the popular vote. A bunch of different things could have won the election for HRC – some under her control,some not. Can we move on please.
OzarkHillbilly
@rikyrah:
Don’t need to. Trump is more than up to that job.
Morzer
@Weaselone:
I realized it. You realized it – but did most people? No. And would they have cared? No – because Trump had openly admitted to gaming the system repeatedly and publicly and proudly. He pranced around the country basically telling people that he played the system and he was smart to do so. That sounded honest to a lot of people, because, in its twisted way, it kinda sorta was. Compare that to “I gave speeches for scads of money to Wall St and no I won’t let you see the transcripts but you can totally trust me because I’m the good guy…” and you can see why a lot of people just shrugged and decided to vote for the open and honest crook.
Nelle
@Kay: I read, from one hired Clinton campaigner, that there is a conclusion that the internal polling of the campaign was hacked, so they felt solid enough to go after Arizona. That sounds like a possibility because this was the election of messing with everyone’s realities.
mai naem mobile
@rikyrah: Rick Perry used to be a Democrat. He was the chair for Gore primary campaign in ’92. He’s not as big a nut job as he pretends to be.
Citizen Alan
@Morzer:
If the Democrats can’t lead the American people against the Alt-Right, America deserves its dissolution.
Morzer
@Citizen Alan:
Right – but the Democrats aren’t going to lead anyone by telling themselves the same comforting little lies about how unfair the world is and how they are its innocent victims while just drifting dreamily downstream until they come to the magical land where the electorate is just right and the stars are perfectly aligned.
JMG
@mai naem mobile: I agree with this completely. Energy now must go towards 1. Making sure opposition in Congress opposes, and opposes in shrill terms, too. 2. How to make such opposition more effective. My personal belief is that the hand-wringing that comes so naturally to Democrats is our worst self-inflicted wound. We lost a weird, close contest. Republicans propose, as they always do, to overreach in victory. That should be cause for forward thinking and resolution, not second guessing ourselves.
Morzer
@mai naem mobile:
He does however come by his ignorance and laziness honestly.
Weaselone
@Morzer:
Have we even managed to verify that there are full transcripts to those speeches?
Citizen Alan
@Elizabelle:
Basically the same effect as putting Bernie in for Veep — months of the media depicting him dressed like Chairman Mao and waving a copy of the Communist Manifesto and using him to paint the whole Democratic Party a bright red.
Elizabelle
@Morzer: knock it off.
Opposite of readership capture.
SenyorDave
@Jeffro: Did she lose because of the original sin of conducting State Department business on a private email server?
I think its a weak attempt at irony/sarcasm.
The email thing ended up being almost as ridiculous as Kerry being Swiftboated. The problem is that HRC did have a private email server. It was a nothingburger, but it did happen. I have co-worker whose spouse is in cyber-security. He has worked on computers for DOD and NSA. This includes 3 star generals and people with the highest clearances. He says having a private server is incredibly common. He was no fan of Clinton but he says the idea that this was a big deal is a joke.
OzarkHillbilly
@mai naem mobile:
Oh hell no, we are no where near done with our orgy of self flagellation.
Morzer
@Weaselone:
Unless we believe that Clinton always spoke extempore, it’s hard to imagine that there were no prepared texts to be fed into the teleprompter or placed upon the podium. Then there’s the issue of recordings of the events that would have allowed a reconstruction of what was said.
rikyrah
Tell that truth, POTUS
POTUS in the next issue of The Atlantic, about the Republicans sudden aversion to public spending.
Elizabelle
@mai naem mobile:
@OzarkHillbilly: The self-flagellation is why I lurk now.
Depressing enough, without having high priest types who are intent on THEIR ONE TRUTH about why that shambling Hillary lost.
Fuck this shit.
mai naem mobile
@mai naem mobile: Perry was for Gore in 88,not 92.
Morzer
@Elizabelle:
What amazes me is when people who should know better try and turn Clinton into some sort of perfect candidate when she very clearly was nothing of the sort. They then wonder how the world could possibly have rejected their mythical creation – and are a good way down the path of finding a similarly flawed candidate to lose the next election for them as well. And no, I don’t give a damn about readership capture, whatever that would mean on someone else’s blog. If I just wanted praise and applause, I’d repeat the comforting myths that the rubes long to believe and smile cynically to myself as they ate it up with a spoon. I want the Democrats to start facing their very real problems, finding better answers and picking better candidates. No more, no less.
Ian
@mai naem mobile:
Rick Perry is a man who claims to walk around shooting coyotes. For no reason other than entertainment. He may be sane, but he is pathological.
Belafon
I think there were a number of things, but a big problem was people wanting change as long as only good things happened to them. Read this about people in Kentucky on the ACA, knowing that Kynect was part of the ACA, knowing that the Republicans have been trying to repeal it, and yet voting for Trump because they don’t think it can be repealed: http://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2016/12/13/13848794/kentucky-obamacare-trump. They just want trump to shake things up.
Democrats accomplished quite a bit in the time from the Great Depression to the ACA in helping people. But making things is hard, and defending them is hard. It’s so much easier to attack and say things like “those moochers are taking your money” and “why should you have to pay for someone else.” And then, before you know it, everything you were relying on is gone.
I do think Democrats have been counting on the national policies staying in place, and have been complacent in defending them. They work, why would they need defending? But Republicans have been slowly cutting at the corners until what is left is fragile. So I do thing we need to get back to being involved in the states in a big way, which is why I went to my first Democratic county meeting last night. If you aren’t doing it in your area, please start. It’s going to take all of us. (I met some very energetic people last night, in a county that is only about 1/3 Democrat.)
I saw some of Sanders’ thing last night. He actually did a pretty good job of convincing a Trump supporter that Republicans are doing the things that hurt them. But to do that over and over, a few voters at a time, will take time, and take all of us.
p.a.
@Morzer: Rightly or wrongly (wrongly IMHO) NAFTA and TPP= Democrats in the public consciousness (well done, Foxcervatives) and while a minor point nationally, it was a big chit in locales that turned the election. They just throw shit against the wall, if enough sticks… Bengazhi was a non-factor, but emails Emails EMAILS, trade, Wall St Speech were clues for the clueless.
Anya
@BillinGlendaleCA: I think they’ve discovered their love for Putin and all things Russia when Putin started a feud with President Obama.
OzarkHillbilly
@Elizabelle: You are missed.
p.a.
@Morzer: As Atrios said, Hillary & her team had 1 job: Beat tRump, and they failed. Favorites in the ’08 primaries; fail. Favorites in the ’16 primaries, and actually had someone NOT EVEN A DEMOCRAT gain traction. Fave against a lunatic in the general; fail. Lots of extenuating circumstances, but HERE WE ARE.
geg6
@rikyrah:
Me, too. I don’t think I’m ever going to get past it.
My media boycott has helped, but the minute I so much as catch a glimpse of CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX or MSNBC, I get so completely filled with rage that I’m thinking I’m heading into a blood pressure problem. This, from a person who has legendarily (at least among her doctors) low pressure but good health. The anger and stress I feel is ruining my health, I’m sure.
Kropadope
I just saw an article portraying a Denver judge’s decision that Colorado’s electors must vote for the statewide winner as a setback to stopping Trump in the electoral college. Didn’t Clinton win Colorado?
rikyrah
@Belafon:
We are literally at the HUNGER GAMES.
gene108
@Morzer:
We did not think to weaponize the CU decision for the 2010 mid-terms. The Republicans did.
There are real structural disadvantages Democrats / liberals face versus conservatives.
The starting point is money.
There are really rich people willing to spend millions to advance a conservative agenda. This leads to capture of the media, think tanks, and creating Astro-turf organizations for an angry base to latch onto.
We have to build these from scratch, with a lot fewer resources. So some things start, but are not sustained, like Air America Radio or Occupy Wall Street, which got some attention, but refused to try and develop a top-down leadership necessary to create a sustainable organization and movement.
If we can correct the inherent imbalance, we now face, it will be a lot easier for Democrats to win elections.
PaulWartenberg2016
@Kropadope:
yes, and ironically there were electors who didn’t want to vote for her.
PJ
@Elizabelle: My point is not that magical thinking does not exist, but that Democrats have to get enough people to vote for them, and directing someone to a candidate’s website for their policy positions is not sufficient. The Democrats have to run smart, charismatic candidates who can communicate effectively that they are going to help voters. Obama did this, Hillary didn’t do this well enough. (Obviously, there are numerous factors contributing to Trump’s victory, including voter ID laws, Comey, the Russians, etc. But Democrats are going to have to expect that Republicans and Russians are going to continue to pull all kinds of unseemly acts to remain in power.)
geg6
@Baud:
Yup. I have looked at this every which way and the only conclusion I can come to is that nothing would have mattered–Russia’s meddling, the FBI and Comey and all the bullshit That Man and his minions spew–had the media not completely abrogated its responsibility, especially the broadcast media who are using our tax dollars to lie to us. The media is as much, and possibly even more, an enemy to me as Russia, China, That Man and the GOP.
tobie
@JMG: Thanks for this. White, rural resentment has been building for years and reached a feverish pitch once Obama was elected. It’s a national problem reflected in the governments of states and will require a national response followed by state media outreach.
Trump had no real local organizations and yet he won overwhelmingly in rural, remote corners of the country. This tells you something. Scott Walker’s election campaigns were nationalized too. Even being labeled a Democrat in much of rural America is a curse. How the party became so stigmatized to so many is the real issue in my opinion. The GOP’s relentless southern strategy plus the national media’s buy-in are the main culprits here.
gene108
@Kropadope:
The idea was, if those electors were let off the hook to vote as they pleased, other electors in other states would have precedent to sue and get let off the hook to vote as they pleased, so the pledged delegates for PA, for example, could swing to Hillary or a not-Trump Republican.
Belafon
@gene108: I wonder if that’s what Obama is thinking about leaning to based on the rumors about what he will do after his term ends.
rikyrah
@Belafon:
Especially, when, after the GOP takes FIFTY FUCKING VOTES TO REPEAL OBAMACARE, and you have idiots believing that, once there is complete GOP control, THEY WON’T TAKE AWAY OBAMACARE.
schrodinger's cat
@geg6: MSM is the propaganda arm of the GOP it has been at least since Bush II. Before that I was not paying close attention. Worst offenders are the outlets with a veneer of respectability, like NPR and NYT. Trusting them has been lethal to the Democrats.
tobie
@gene108:
The fact that the party didn’t take up the banner of Occupy Wall Street was a horrible mistake. This was a grass roots movement the party let fall by the wayside.
geg6
@JMG:
Tell that to our resident trolls. Today, it seems Morzer is on shift.
You know this. I know this. Hell, I live with these people every day and I’ve been saying this for months and months and months and months. I don’t want a party that plays to these people. They are disgusting and willfully stupid racists and misogynists. They have been that way all my life, just not so open and gleeful about it as they are now. I don’t want to appeal to them. Ever.
Kropadope
@gene108: But since it’s a state law in question, how much weight would that ruling carry in other states? If PA has a faithful elector law, how does it compare to Colorado’s law?
Ruckus
@Morzer:
This is what I’ve been trying to say for months. The damage is repairable. The time it takes to repair it will run decades. The lost lives, health, and loss of general well being will last long after conservative experiment in stupidity and sadism has ended.
rikyrah
@geg6:
PREACH!!!
Ruckus
@OzarkHillbilly:
One goes with ones strength.
Keep someone down long enough and all they know is down.
bemused
@rikyrah:
This! To think of Obama not being our president and instead…..
I haven’t cried yet, not even the night of the election results, still too knotted up. I’m very over due for a massive downpour.
Bitter Scribe
I wonder how many of the morons who howled and screamed about “the cost to taxpayers” every time the Obamas poked their noses out of the White House will care about the money being wasted in New York?
geg6
Ridiculous argument. Just ridiculous. The people who voted for That Man (with very few exceptions) didn’t vote for Obama. There is no evidence to support that other than a few anecdotes. For instance, my state went Obama twice. But my county never went Obama. And there was higher turnout among white people in my county in 2016. Since my county only has about 8-9% minority population, there was no way for the Dems to increase turnout enough to overcome that. And that’s the story in many of the counties here in PA. It wasn’t that Dems didn’t turn out. It was that GOPers and white people who don’t usually vote turned out in big numbers. Now why do you suppose that is? Oh wait…economic anxiety, I’m sure.
Kay
@geg6:
There’s something to this. True in my county too. My friend was looking at Toledo and surrounding areas and she noticed really high turnout in what are lower income, more rural areas outside the city proper. Literally the land of Joe the Plumber- out by the airport. That’s where Obama encountered Joe the Fake Plumber. Same area.
Emma
@Morzer: See? This is where I lose all temper. The “speeches” were the excuse people (men mostly, but some women also) who weren’t going to vote for her used to protect themselves against charges of irrationality or misogyny. I haven’t found a single person who voted for Trump who gives a flying floozy about all the Goldman Sachs employees he’s hiring. It wasn’t about that. At all.
gvg
Democratic voters are different than republican ones. We are turned off by a lot of imperfections. I myself think the email server is a nothingburger but it outraged my very liberal sister who kept saying she would be fired (VA doc) for doing that. Fact that the situations and responsibilities are different made no difference to her. She voted for Hillary but did less volunteer work and calling this time. Preferred Bernie (whom I disliked as a non loyal Dem johnny come lately but she thought he was treated unfairly) My dad the always democrat since teh 60’s was really turned off by the Goldman Sachs speeches and said why didn’t she know it would be used against her etc. Made no impressions on him when I said they make up outrage all the time and it’s impossible to satisfy them so why try…..to him she didn’t cater to Democrats feelings enough. yes he voted anyway but I think some stayed home.
Republicans believe an alternate reality and supposedly the evangelicals think Pence will end up being President because they want to believe that. Actually so do I because I think Trump is going to go to far soon but it won’t be pretty and it might not happen. they should not have counted on it. So looking at some of the scandals of Hillary versus Trump, keep in mind they were different potential voters looking at them. Not only do you have to keep “your” voters, you have to get them to actually vote. Voter suppression increases this but before that, we had to actually get them to try to vote.
Until we figure out what was wrong with the polls, the next several elections will be nerve racking. Its impossible to have a good campaign until we have that mystery solved and we wont know our evaluations are right till we get the results expected. I am worried that its caused by cell phones and caller ID which could be unsolvable.
geg6
@Morzer:
How about giving up on a completely lost cause like the white male working class (which really isn’t all that working class but they like to style themselves that way)? They are everything I despise and I have no interest in reaching them. I’m much more interested in making sure that people of color are able to vote and that more women run for office. Fuck white men. They can all go blow their brains out with their pen1s extensions for all I give a damn about them.
schrodinger's cat
@Emma: Forget it, Emma, he is a Berner first and foremost. His patron saint provided many of the attacks that were later weaponized by the Orange one.
Elizabelle
@Emma: Is Morzer a dudebro? Certainly a one-note pony this morning.
OzarkHillbilly
@Kay: It was true out here. Took 15-20 mins for my wife and I to vote. Has never taken more than 5 mins before.
schrodinger's cat
@gvg: A fair number of Democratic women I personally know hated HRC and latched onto to the email story as an excuse not to vote for her.
gvg
@Emma: I don’t think the Trump voters are where Goldman Sachs speeches hurt. I think its in the democrat turnout and maybe Stein or Johnson. See some things turn Obama voters to Trump maybe (I am sceptical of many of the sad storys getting play) and other things depress some percent of democrats, some things fire up republicans, some other things motivated some prior voter droppouts to actually come out for Trump, etc. Its multiple tiny shifts adding up to a horrible stupid result.
Elizabelle
@schrodinger’s cat: Ah. Explains much. Thank you.
ETA: the verb “harangue” came to mind. Also the noun, “hyperbole.”
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Morzer: I admit I haven’t been around as much lately, but do you ever show up here to do anything other than run HRC down?
Forget about Secretary Clinton. She won’t be running again; any personal failings of hers are irrelevant now. The only thing that matters about any of them now is how we’re going to go around the media that used them to play into the sexism of the American populace.
At this point, I’m gonna start calling anyone who is still spending their time beating the long-pulped horse of Clinton’s speeches (or her email server, or….) a troll deliberately trying to siphon off our energy into retreading futile arguments when we need to be working on fighting the gutting of the VRA.
Troll.
Don’t want me to call you a troll? Prove me wrong. Talk about something constructive.
OzarkHillbilly
@geg6: I luv you too. :-)
p.a.
We (libs/progs/whatever) are now in fact victims of our own successes. It’s been a long time coming, say since Truman desegregated the military in, what, 1948? (Well really since the 13, 14, 15 Amendments.). Each success nibbled off a piece of the electorate who could not be reconciled to the ‘long arc of justice.’ Have they reached a critical mass? IDK. It hasn’t been linear by any means, but over time it’s inarguable; more steps forward than back. Is this a ‘step back’, or a bomb destroying the whole timeline? All I have right now is hope. My concern is the states; it’s easier for progress’ opponents to dominate smaller venues than nationally, and the Electoral College makes the small writ large. Add in the USSC and uh-oh.
One positive: if Cali leads the nation by a few years, Election 2016 can be a blip, if we can get the playing field relatively level.
Elizabelle
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: Thank you.
This thread done be highjacked.
Maybe Morzer can spend his/her afternoon visiting funeral parlors, informing the mourners that their loved one deserved that death. Same skill set.
schrodinger's cat
@geg6: Actually, I think a fair number of WWC (real blue collar types, who work their hands) vote Democratic. I have known quite a few in my physics days (machinists, shop workers, roofers, instructors and students at a technical college etc farmers) actually vote Democratic in at least the parts of the country I have lived in, New England and the Atlantic states. Its the ones slightly above the actual working class that vote Republican unfailingly and the purity pony leftists who are always flirting with Nader, St Bernard and the like.
Emma
@gvg: It’s two major things, actually, IMHO: first, the complete abandonment of standards by the MSM; and the vote suppression in crucial states. In some states Hillary lost by less than 10,000 votes and the suppression was over 100,000. You don’t think that there were 12,000 Hillary voters among them?
The most important thing we need to do RIGHT NOW is deal with gerrymandering and vote suppression at the state level. Constant pressure at all possible points.
tobie
<@schrodinger’s cat: His patron saint provided many of the attacks that were later weaponized by the Orange one.
EBT
@Morzer: Anyone who cares about her speeches and voted for deadbeat donnie doesn’t actually care about the speeches and is instead lying.
geg6
@OzarkHillbilly:
There were people in my polling place that had obviously never been to a polling place before and who done absolutely no research as to what to do once there. Several had “Trump That Bitch” and “Lock Up The C*nt” t-shirts on and had to be told that was not allowed and that they couldn’t vote until they changed. Some didn’t seem to realize that they couldn’t vote together or watch each other vote. Some had massive trouble with the voting machine, taking up time of the poll workers. I’ve never seen such chaos and stupidity at my poll.
Belafon
@gvg: I mentioned to someone last night that my failure was to think that people would see through the crap that Clinton has put up with, and I was wrong. That cost her the 2-3% represented by Comey’s meddling near the end of the election.
But there were plenty of people who did not want a Democratic third term. She was still defending black people. She ran on a very progressive platform. That would have been too much for them.
Partially because of the last eight years, and partially because of this election, I do wonder if there is ever any way to change things like the our health care system, or raise taxes to really pay for things like infrastructure and education, unless a big even collapses the current system. I wonder if the only way we’re going to end Republican “greed is good” as a policy is to have them screw things up royally.
El Caganer
@Kay: Might be a case of the dread Third Party Disease: everybody wants to be a star on the big stage, nobody wants to run for school board.
bemused
@geg6:
I’ve been reading a lot of fiction to distract myself and get breaks from the atrocities but it’s difficult to wipe out what is going on in the real world entirely even when I’m getting into a novel’s plot. I read something like this, “I think many people love their problems. Gives them all sorts of excuses for not growing up and getting on with life…If you’re not growing and evolving you’re standing still and the rest of the world is surging ahead. Most of these people are very immature. The lead ‘still’ lives, waiting. Waiting for someone to save them or at least protect them from the big, bad world.” It was a very short jump back into the here and now and immediately think of wwc resentment.
schrodinger's cat
@Belafon: Democrats need to work on their media game and focus on local elections.
Alesis
@Belafon:
I think we have to start dismantling the systems that privilege white rural voters. Yes I know this will likely make them even angrier but it will also mean their anger is less politically powerful. Obama has already made non partisan redistricting a key cause for his post presidency. We need to add ballot access (mail in balloting in every blue state) and elimination of the electoral college (by any means necessary) to that list.
Kropadope
@Belafon:
The only thing about that is people forget after a decade. They manage to convince themselves that even though it’s mostly the same faces, it’s a different Republican party.
Elizabelle
@bemused: Which book?
Yes. Art and literature are made for times like these.
germy
@geg6:
I noticed the same thing. I voted early in the morning and returned to the polling place later in the day when my wife voted. Both times, I noticed people (white men with ballcaps*) who didn’t understand how to use the voting machines; had to be walked through the process.
I remember thinking “They’ve never voted before in their lives, but they’re coming out for their new hero.”
* I own several ball caps myself and wear them in the summer to keep the sun’s rays off my scalp. I’m not an elitist; the first time voters just looked like gop voters to me. They didn’t give off “Hillary supporter” vibes.
Kropadope
@schrodinger’s cat:
Twice more.
QFT.
Kropadope
@germy:
Which pundit was it that called liberals elitist for not knowing it wasn’t a ball cap, but rather a trucker hat? I don’t remember or care to look it up, but, to my ears, that sounds like a pretty sneering elitist distinction to dwell on.
ETA: @Elizabelle:
Truth. And, frankly, what I think will help keep America great in the face of the great Trump onslaught will be America’s dominance in popular culture. Not that I couldn’t see Trump ruining that too.
bemused
It’s Louise Penny’s first book, Still Life, in her Three Pines Chief Inspector Gamache murder series. Quote is from character Myrna, former therapist.
Poopyman
I’m sure we could all use some good news:
Note the article source, also too.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@schrodinger’s cat: This. Trump’s voters weren’t the workers, but the overseers.
OzarkHillbilly
@schrodinger’s cat: I was a union carpenter for a long time in a rural local. Our business agent harped constantly about the need to vote Dem every election. I am absolutely dead certain it went right over the heads of somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 the guys in the hall. For them it was guns, and keeping those people in their place.
CaseyL
I think that we in the Blue states are going to have to cut the Red states loose.
To the extent that it’s possible, I’m advocating for Blue states to keep their money in their state. Not only refuse to do business with Red states, but change tax laws so that we minimize the amount we send to the federal government and maximize the amount we keep at home.
I’m still figuring out the mechanisms for this, particularly if – as seems likely – Congress changes the law so that state income taxes are no longer deductible from federal tax returns.
Elizabelle
@bemused: Thank you.
Have read two of the later novels; need to read them anew in sequence, I think.
Canada. Beloved Canada. Home to snow, cold and wisdom.
EBT
@Kropadope: I am the product of 400 years of Appalachian mountain folk and that is absofuckinglutly a ball cap and anyone who disagrees can fight me about it.
schrodinger's cat
The places where HRC lost in Western Mass were few and far between but they are places which were former mill towns and doing quite poorly compared to their neighboring towns. Resentment and spite was indeed a motivating factor, I think.
geg6
@schrodinger’s cat:
That’s why I was careful to say that most of them really aren’t working class. The craft unions and other union members around here are very reliable Dems. The very poor and working poor white people here usually vote Dem. In my county, it’s the wealthy and the middle and upper middle class white people, especially those 65+ who make up a large portion of our population here, who voted for That Man. The same racist assholes who have made sure that a county that had several major stops on the Underground Railroad and a proud Union past has managed to stay segregated by race, untouched by Supreme Court rulings or societal progress for my entire lifetime. This is the county in PA that, rather than allow the students of a majority minority school district to attend their high schools when the students’ district (Midland) became too financially distressed to continue having a middle or high school, forced those students to attend school across the state line in Ohio. We have 15 little school districts here and three of them are considered majority minority (even though that isn’t really true of all of them). Two out of those three (Rochester and Aliquippa) are going to end up in the same boat as Midland but they aren’t nearly as close to the border as Midland is. But I can guarantee you that none of the other districts will be taking in those students.
hovercraft
@Morzer:
I call bullshit.
What was there to explain? An ex-politician cashes in by giving speeches to anyone willing to pay the big bucks, what’s hard to understand? Politicians have been cashing in on their service for years, it’s part of what’s meant to keep them honest. They go into “public service”, knowing that they will be making less than they would in the private sector, and when they are done “serving”, they go out and earn the big bucks. Or to quote the shrub, “I’ll give some speeches, to replenish the ol’ coffers.” This is nothing new or unusual, it has been standard practice, until Hillary, when suddenly between Bernie and the media, it was the most suspicious unusual thing ever. For her it wasn’t enough that she disclosed all the speeches she gave, released her taxes from the last 40 years, (which neither of her opponents did), she was the one who was hiding something, her speeches needed to be released publicly.
The only “genuinely painful and embarrassing” thing was watching “liberals” fall for this bullshit. They led the torch brigade branding the most transparent candidate in the history of campaigning be branded as the most secretive. I mean FFS the only thing we don’t know about her is what day she had her last period. But I guess for some it will never be enough, a woman who has had all of her dirty laundry hanging out for all the world to see, decided to use a private server, just like her two predecessors, so she’s evil. Accepting culpability for feeding and supporting a ridiculous meme is hard, but if we are conducting an autopsy, everything must be looked at, she made some mistakes, the speeches were never a big deal, and those who turned them into one, need to admit they bought into a bullshit story.
Kropadope
@EBT: LMAO. Sell it to Balloon Juice as clickbait.
bemused
@Elizabelle:
The climate and topography is so similar to northern MN but Canadian culture differs more so I am enjoying reading her series. It’s like moving to Canada mentally if I can’t physically.
Alesis
@geg6:
Exactly. We lost them at “Hello. I’m black and I’d like our kids to go to school together”
That’s the issue and until we deal with it they are gone. Period.
Kropadope
@hovercraft:
You mean declined to use her .gov email address like her two predecessors. I thought they used commercial email services.
bemused
@Alesis:
Hell, we lost them at “Hello, I’m liberal”. If they tag you as liberal, they tune out anything you say, no matter how mild.
Kropadope
@EBT: Since you’re actually so passionate about it, I did decide to find out who wrote that.
It was Kevin Drum.
J R in WV
@Kay:
I’m thinking the main thing wrong with the Dems is that some of the hired contractors are working for the other side. Not only making the main committees spend all their money on, who else, the expensive contractors, but then frittering the money away on things they know won’t win the election.
But of course we don’t have subpoena power to look at the tax returns of these people, so we can’t know if they’re taking millions under the table from Koch/Murdoch/etc, etc.
It would explain a lot, winning elections by 3 million votes, yet losing anyway, somehow?
schrodinger's cat
@OzarkHillbilly: I was really good friends with a machinist who was WWII vet. Had served in India during the war, he was a proud Democrat, all the way. I think working for a University/educational institution was also a factor, that and union membership with the working class people I personally came across.
Being a woman in a field dominated by men also worked to my advantage, most were unfailingly nice and helpful, if I ever needed anything for my own experiments or for my teaching.
I encountered far more hostility from my fellow male grad students than the guys (they were all men) who worked in the shop.
EBT
@Kropadope: I could be the Tyrannical Tranny! Brutally putting her size 16s through all the other rednecks.
hovercraft
@mai naem mobile:
As did a number of southern GOPers, remember that up until the last twenty years or so, the south was solidly democratic at the state level, even RWNJ’s like Richard Shelby of Alabama were democrats, so I don’t gain any comfort in this.
OzarkHillbilly
@Kropadope: As somebody who has worn hats of all shapes and styles but mostly of the mesh with a bill type, whether ball cap or truckers hat, I had no idea there even was such a thing as a truckers hat. So yeah, pretty elitist.
hovercraft
@Ian:
And wasn’t he the one who owned or was affiliated with the Ni**er Ranch, or some such?
EBT
@hovercraft: He purchased a plot of land containing the “Niggerhead Ranch” and didn’t pull the sign down until people pointed out he sounded like a giant fucking racist.
Steeplejack (tablet)
@Poopyman:
Homeland Security News Wire is a private, for-profit site.
ETA: Not questioning the information, just the imprimatur suggested by “Note the article source, also too.”
schrodinger's cat
@OzarkHillbilly: I was accused of being a smug elitist by a friend who left the top line blank because she was still pining for the St Bernard of Vt. Irony is dead.
EBT
@schrodinger’s cat: You explained what those words meant, and how she misused them right? Then she apologized and corrected herself?
gene108
@tobie:
OWS was a disorganized mess, as far as an organization goes. The Democrats did latch onto the idea of income inequality as being an important issue, after OWS brought attention to the matter.
Keeping an organization afloat is not the job of the Democrats, per se.
fuckwit
@Morzer: that’s the liberal dilemma in a nutshell.
it is far easier to destroy than to create.
OzarkHillbilly
@schrodinger’s cat: The carpenters I worked with up in STL were far more likely to vote DEM down the line, then the guys I worked with out here. They knew who buttered their bread. The totemic power of guns to overcome any and all common sense in people out here can not be over emphasized. If we want to make serious inroads out state, we need to kill the NRA.
schrodinger's cat
@EBT: The ideologically pure are never wrong, they can only be wronged by the cruel cruel world and smug elitists.
MomSense
@Morzer:
Complacent mediocrity? Did you know that we logged more volunteer hours in this campaign than in any previous Democratic campaign?
The vote came down to about 76,000 votes in states where hundreds of thousands of people were disenfranchised because of ID laws, purging of the voter rolls, and broken vote counting machines. Where is the outrage about all the people in lower income and minority areas who had their right to vote STOLEN from them?
You know who I fucking blame? I blame Bernie fucking Sanders whose entire campaign was an insult to my intelligence and to all of us who have invested time and money in the Democratic Party over decades. He had no fucking mathematical path to the nomination after April and almost impossible after March 19th and yet he stayed in and pushed the corruption and rigged election meme for fucking months. Asshole. Seriously he is an asshole and anyone who bought his nonsense got conned just as bad as the Trumpers. It is not a progressive movement if it is 90% white. Period. End of fucking story.
And the DNC was way too fucking nice to that asshole, Weaver, and Devine. If I blame the DNC for anything it was not ending that sorry jerk’s campaign as soon as his IT people fraudulently accessed and exported Clinton campaign data to their computers. Nope. I have accessed the van for multiple elections and what they did was a violation of the terms of use.
You know who else I fucking blame? I blame every idiot who felt for the Greenwald, Assange, Wikileaks bullshit hook line and sinker. It was bullshit from the beginning to anyone who was paying attention. Why did Stone and Giuliani have advance knowledge of what and when Wikileaks was releasing?
I blame the fucking FBI who was basing their investigations of Clinton on the discredited book Clinton Cash. Turns out NYT was as well. The media dropped the ball big league.
And I’m sorry but it is long past time to obsess over lost manufacturing jobs. We didn’t lose them all because of NAFTA. We lost them to robots FFS. We lost them to tax policies that were enacted in the 80s. We lose labor jobs to relocation in Right to Work for less states. Yes, we lose factories to environmental regulation and I’m fine with that because I don’t like mercury dumped in our rivers. Let’s face it there is a good deal of sexism wrapped up in the fixation with manufacturing jobs. Service jobs have traditionally been held by women. Let’s fight for $15. Let’s all turn our attention to people who work in home health care, child care, fast food joints, big box stores. You know the jobs that can’t be shipped overseas.
I also blame the fucking Republicans most of all.
tobie
@gene108: I agree that the Dems task wasn’t to keep “occupy wall street” afloat but it was to show the party’s sympathy with the cause loudly and repeatedly and laud OWS’s work. The response to OWS was lukewarm at best. That’s what bothers me. The energy there was ripe for the picking and the party let it slide.
EBT
@schrodinger’s cat: Please tell me you have enough self respect to cut her loose?
OzarkHillbilly
@schrodinger’s cat: In the end, we are all elitists.
tobie
@MomSense: Say it, sister!
germy
@MomSense: Thank you.
Elizabelle
@MomSense: Thank you!
I agree, Saint Bernie helped lose this election. And with everything else you wrote. Tell it.
schrodinger's cat
@EBT: Why do you never disagree with your friends? We argue about politics all the time, but we are still good friends. All my friends don’t have to be mini-mes and I do call them out on their BS.
debbie
@gene108:
No, but Dems should have fought to hold Wall Street accountable for the financial crisis. If nothing else, it would have cut far into Bernie’s popularity.
PJ
@hovercraft: The difference was that Hillary was not an “ex-politician” – she wanted to be President, and only someone completely clueless would not realize that this would look like a quid pro quo with Wall St. that would be used against her. If she were a Republican, it might not have mattered, because everyone already believes they will only do what Wall Street wants (but not what is good for Wall Street), but as a Democrat, it was sure to turn a lot of people off. If she had released the transcripts early on, and said “look, they paid me hundreds of thousands for innocuous, banal bullshit”, it would have helped, instead of playing into the “Clinton secrecy” narrative, but she couldn’t do that. There’s no way to know how many Democrats, or people inclined to vote Democratic, decided not to vote for her because of it, but there’s no way it wasn’t a political blunder.
hovercraft
@Bitter Scribe:
None, Obama is blah, and Michelle is a great big fatty, what with all of her travelling and what not. The Shitgibbon and it’s wife are hard working business people, so it’s okay to have two White Houses so that she is not inconvenienced by her husbands new side gig.
schrodinger's cat
The signal has been activated, HRC haters swarming to the comment section. Time to go migrate to the next thread.
GregB
Thank God Trump was elected, now the endless wars with annoying little nations like Afghanistan and Iraq will end so that we can focus on global conflagrations with China and Iran.
EBT
@schrodinger’s cat: Calling you elitist for voting for Clinton while she didn’t vote for a president at all isn’t disagreement.
Simply put: Being a Bernie or Buster is no more a valid life choice than being a Nazi.
FlipYrWhig
@hovercraft: Both “Hillary got emails about work!” and “Hillary got paid to speak at events!” are bullshit, substance-free stories, neither of which would be in the top 500 shadiest things Donald Fucking Trump has done in his life. The effect that they had, however, was a big bag of Confirmation Bias. The left, who hasn’t liked Hillary since she cosponsored a flag-burning amendment and didn’t like Bill starting in about 1991, got to moan about CORPORATE NEOLIBERAL whatever. The right, who hasn’t liked Hillary since she used her maiden name as First Lady of Arkansas, got to harrumph about secretive something something. And the media, who hasn’t liked Hillary since the cookie-baking quip, got to stroke their chins about OPTICS, like how Hillary should have known that something wouldn’t look right, so she should have avoided it, so her failure to avoid it is a scandal about scandal-management on top of a scandal, so it’s like scandal cubed.
Also, fuck Bernie Sanders, a clueless, preachy, predictable one-track pony who isn’t even a creature of the working class he professes to champion.
schrodinger's cat
@EBT: Well she called me elitist because I called her ignorant for still pining away for Bernie and insisting that he would have won, had he been the Dem nominee.
FlipYrWhig
@tobie:
I guaran-damn-tee you that if they had done anything of the sort, OWS would cry “sellout” and the alt-left would piss and moan like usual about how the Democrats ruin everything.
hovercraft
@Kropadope:
Yes they did use commercial services, which are still technically private, as in, not government issue. But yes, since the state department is still barely past the era of AOL and myspace, this was seen as necessary by all three to get anything done.
FlipYrWhig
@MomSense: Cosign 100%. I’m with her, meaning you.
PJ
@geg6: You might want to fuck white women, while you’re at it, since 53% of them voted for Trump.
FlipYrWhig
@MomSense:
I still don’t understand why any of this is laid at the feet of the Democratic Party, NAFTA, or whatever, instead of Ronald Reagan, who presided over the deindustrialization that was already fueling popular music in the early 1980s. And I don’t think the “economically anxious” think of it as Democrats’ fault either. What they lay at Democrats’ feet is paying too much attention to people of color, women, and LGBT people, i.e., “cultural issues,” i.e., “political correctness.” Which the so-called populist left, it turns out, faults Democrats for as well.
EBT
@schrodinger’s cat: Hah, Bernie wasn’t ever going to be the Dem nominee. I guess if you instinctively laugh at the idea like I do I could see why she would be upset.
LAC
@OzarkHillbilly: OMG – please do not get logical here – that would be like saying that we have three branches of government and that is just crazy talk. :)
hovercraft
@PJ:
As I said before she made mistakes, the problem I have with the she just should have released the transcripts bullshit, is that every time she responds to the calls for more transparency, the goal posts are simply moved. CGI is one of t/he most transparent charities out there, every “blockbuster” uncovered by the media was from their disclosures, she gets dizzy because she has pneumonia, why didn’t she tell us before she almost collapsed? It was 9/11 she thought she could do what all of us do everyday in our daily lives, power through, but the media blew it into proof of her lack of transparency. No matter what she did/does, it is always twisted to comport with the media’s Clinton narrative.
Also too the fact that you are willing to give the media a pass on their double standard re republicans is unacceptable, if speeches are a problem then they need to be a problem for everyone, the Shitgibbon has been threatening for years to run, and it finally did, so hold it to the same standard, it knew it wanted to run, where are the transcripts? Democrats who were disappointed that she had given the speeches should also be clamoring for the speeches that Bernie gave to outside groups even if they weren’t paid speeches, I’m sure there would have been plenty of fodder for the media there. Everything is innocuous until it becomes campaign fodder, then no matter how innocent it can be twisted any which way. Her ‘mistakes’ were trumpeted and beaten like a drum, the Shitgibbons were all brushed off and given short if any shrift. Hillary was boring, and reporting the same few lines on her everyday was easy, she is untrustworthy, e-mails, speeches, there done, now we can move on to the more fun and interesting Shitgibbon, who gives us a new and exciting drama everyday. In their desire to give equal time, they cemented an image of Hillary in the minds of millions of voters, while never establishing a clear picture of her opponent.
LAC
@Elizabelle: I don’t blame you, but I wish you didn’t. More you, less them.
SFBayAreaGal
@bemused: You will love the rest of her books. I yearn to live in place like Three Pines.
SFAW
@BillinGlendaleCA:
I believe the actual slogan was “Fuck YEAH, Baud! 2020”
I thought left-coasters were more edumacated than that.
Brachiator
@FlipYrWhig:
Why does it matter whose feet the problem is laid at?
The question is, who has a better solution? Trump offers tangible, simple, bullshit solutions. The Democrats offered their own solutions, although some were fuzzy. A sliver of an electoral majority preferred Trump’s bullshit.
catclub
@geg6:
Huh? A less than 1% swing in three states is all that would be needed to change everything. A slight tilt in Comey, Russia, the press, and that would happen.
mai naem mobile
@schrodinger’s cat: the Demo need to work on their media work. I listen to Stephanie Miller on radio in the AM. Last week she talked about working at Current until Al Gore sold it for millions to AL Jazeera and then she qhit and set up this Free TV thing. I’ve seen it once when I was at a friends because it’s only on Dish. Anyhow, she talked about how she called Gore’s business manager to beg for a few bucks for the Free TV set up. From what I’ve understood from listening to her in the past, her Free Speech set up is/was dirt cheap. We’re talking a few thousand dollars. Al Gore has the gall last week to talk about how the Dens need to work on their media. But,scumball Al Gore didn’t stop to think about this when he sold Current – to Arabs no less – to make a buck. He’s made a shitload of money off early tech investments but he can’t throw a few bucks to a successful liberal talk show host. Reminds me of when his charitable giving came up in 2000 and he’d given next to nothing. Ummm, yeah that thing about ripping into another Dem, I’ll rip into Al Gore any day. Also why go see Trump and legitimize him?
schrodinger's cat
@Brachiator: What exactly was Trump’s solution? I missed it, was it insult everyone, especially China and the jobs will come back?
El Caganer
@geg6: Agree 1000%. That crap the Russians released was a lot of nothing – it took Our Liberal Media with their taste for high drama to pretend there was something important going on. Pretty depressing that the Russians understand OLM so well that they can release any old kind of shit and it will turn into a Possible Scandal-Questions Remain!
Major Major Major Major
@Kropadope: Huh, I hadn’t seen that article. Thanks. I’m so going to use that as a source next time somebody doubts that there’s sneering! (It’s much nicer to read than the actual examples.)
@catclub: The full-er quote was “nothing would have mattered IF…” which you can basically say about any factor in an election this close.
mai naem mobile
@MomSense: there’s at least ten reasons HRC lost which if any had not been there,she would have won. I seriously don’t think the Demo need to change much except work on winning state races and that’s only for redistricting purposes. I still think the GOP is in big trouble long term. You aren’t going to be able to win races based on big majorities of white votes only forever.
Brachiator
So, selling to “Arabs” is a bad thing?
FlipYrWhig
@Brachiator: It matters because the just-so story we’ve been told by the left since the election is that the white working class blames Democrats for globalization and neoliberalism (even if they don’t use the nomenclature). Comparing prospective solutions is a better way to go, but the _real_ thing that someone on Team D needs to find a way to kill is this stupidity that being A Businessman is a praiseworthy thing in and of itself. Whenever I’ve had an owner-boss at a for-profit company, he’s been a raging, mercurial asshole who fucks with his people just because he can, just like Donald Trump. I don’t want anyone to run anything LIKE A BUSINESS. Businesses are run terribly and by dicks! This is the beast we need to slay.
FlipYrWhig
@schrodinger’s cat: His solution was “I am a master deal-maker and I will make deals, big ones, the best.” This is why the thing I regret most about the Clinton campaign is that they didn’t run hard against his record of spectacular deal-making fuckups. I’m sure the focus groups said, well, that’s just business, it just reminds us that he’s a successful businessman. But sometimes a line of attack, or a campaign ad, becomes a story in its own right, whereupon its message can get amplified. That was the lost opportunity: “he’s been calling himself an artist at deals for three decades, but we know him as a two-bit hustler, don’t let the country be his next mark.”
hovercraft
Is the BJ community taking part in the nominating process over at TPM for the Golden Duke Awards?
If you would care to :
schrodinger's cat
@FlipYrWhig: Apparently, Pence announced on one of the Sunday gabfests that T is going to solve the Kashmir problem because he has superior deal making skills.
Major Major Major Major
Aleppo? Anybody?
bemused
@SFBayAreaGal:
I’ve read all but last three which I have but I decided to start from the beginning again and see what I missed the first time. I’ve already discovered I did read too fast.
Elizabelle
@FlipYrWhig: Good point. Needed to separate “reality” from the reality TV show star.
A lot of people realize that Trump is not the businessman he’s presented himself as. Even if they don’t like Democrats.
schrodinger's cat
@Major Major Major Major: What about Aleppo? That Russia’s meddling has made it worse?
Brachiator
@schrodinger’s cat:
I clearly said that Trump’s solution was bullshit. But his promise was simple to understand. He promised to bring back jobs that people lost by strong arming China and Mexico and anybody else who stood in his way, And yeah, the insult was one of the selling points.
And I am not going to bash Hillary. Obviously, a majority of voters preferred her approach. But this was not an electoral majority. I also don’t think it useful to create fantasy scenarios that she could have played to do better, because I think that she (and a whole lot of other people) were blindsided by bad polling, and by overly relying on polling data. Trump, by contrast, could ignore the polls because he was a crazy ass wild man anyway, and he had nothing to lose.
hovercraft
@FlipYrWhig: His solution was “I am a master deal-maker and I will make deals, big ones, the best.”
Major Major Major Major
@schrodinger’s cat: The U.N. says they’re probably going through homes killing civilians, etc.
ETA: Like, now.
MomSense
@Major Major Major Major:
Me at #76. I’ve been crying about it all morning imagining what I would do if I were there. This is horrific. And now with Trump there is nothing to stop Putin and Assad.
MomSense
@Major Major Major Major:
Yup shooting women and children at point blank range. Burning down homes with people inside.
Major Major Major Major
@MomSense: Probably.
Developing, war zone, etc.
debbie
@Major Major Major Major:
Not probably, definitely. They are capturing rebels and civilians and murdering them on site. Which is why I asked above earlier today if anyone had asked Trump what he thought about Putin’s deliberate murdering of Syrian civilians.
Major Major Major Major
@debbie: Al Jazeera was pushing back pretty hard on “definitely” for the worst things, and Moon said they haven’t confirmed a lot of the events.
They’re definitely murdering rebels though, and some civilians, but they might not be e.g. wholesale slaughtering hospitals as some have reported.
Not much point getting into that right now as we’ll know soon enough.
Brachiator
@FlipYrWhig:
I don’t agree with any of this, but appreciate your taking the time to clarify your position.
glory b
@Morzer: Oh, screw that. Clinton supporters weren’t the ones claiming to have a perfect candidate.
Mnemosyne
@hovercraft:
You speak the truth, and I co-sign this entire comment wholeheartedly.
hovercraft
@Major Major Major Major: @MomSense:
Feature not a bug, there were many reasons for Putin’s meddling, even if he failed, he coud delegitimize Hillary, cause her so much trouble at home that she didn’t have time to “interfere” with him abroad, the upsides were even greater if he succeeded, he now stands a very good chance of getting all the sanctions on him lifted, his good friend will allow him free reign in Syria to “get rid of ISIS.” The fact that this has never been his primary goal in Syria is irrelevant, his good friend knows that he will do it. The poor people of Syria are the victims, and there is nothing we can do about it. If anything this will exacerbate the refugee crisis in Europe and make it even more likely that right wing parties will win in France and Germany next year. WASF.
Mnemosyne
@MomSense:
Sister, we are on the same page. There is NO LOGICAL REASON why service jobs are poorly paid, except that they are traditionally held by women. And I say this as someone whose job title includes the word “secretary” (but it’s a union job, so we are quite comfortable).
Brachiator
Per WaPo and other sources, the pushback begins:
I don’t think that Trump is going to like being told No.
We’ll see what the Democrats do to help protect targeted government workers.
glory b
@tobie: But when the party people (like John Lewis) tried to reach out to Occupy, they got rebuffed.
As an African American, I remember many of the folks in my community being mad that the Occupy people treated him shabbily.
They REJECTED the idea of joining in the party.
mai naem mobile
@Brachiator: I actually dont think it’s a good idea for the Democratic party for thr former Democratic presidential candidate to sell his TV network to a middle eastern Arab owned TV Network that some people can twist into saying is sympathetic two terrorists,especially post 9/11.
hovercraft
@Brachiator:
Can you say Lois Lerner, the IRS chief they just tried to impeach, since the Benghazi witch hunt suddenly mysteriously ended, the House committees now have a lot of time on their hands, I foresee a lot of hearings to determine who is promoting this Chinese hoax.
Major Major Major Major
@Brachiator: Good.
@Mnemosyne:
Companies can get away with it, which is certainly historically steeped in sexism but there’s your logical reason right there. Why pay more?
@hovercraft: Putin basically just wants to make Syria a shithole to delegitimize us playing world policeman, right?
Mnemosyne
@glory b:
As I have mentioned many times here, I am white. Probably 100 percent European (though I do have an Ancestry DNA test pending). And I knew the Occupy people were fucking morons when a guy who crossed the Edmund Pettis Bridge at the risk of his own life offered to help them organize and they essentially said, What does he know about The Struggle?
Assholes.
Miss Bianca
@JMG: OMG…you mean we as Democrats should be “lloking forward, not back”?
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
I know this is not what you meant, but sexism is not logical.
Paying your workers poorly based on their gender may be rational for some values of that word, but it’s not logical, because it causes a whole set of other problems.
hovercraft
You’ve just gotta love all of these billionaires:
Bill Gates
I hate these people, talk about blowing smoke up his ass.
Brachiator
@hovercraft:
They were trying to impeach the current IRS commissioner, John Koskinen. I expect more witch hunts. There will be much work to do to oppose them.
schrodinger's cat
@hovercraft: Since when did wealth become more important than almost any other attribute?
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: Rational, there we go.
Mnemosyne
@hovercraft:
Meh. I give slightly more slack to philanthropists. If I ran a giant NGO with worldwide reach like Gates does, I, too, would want to see the enemy up close before deciding what to do.
My only real worry with Gates is that, in the past, he’s been a big supporter of school vouchers. That’s where the “in” would be to corrupt him.
NR
@MomSense:
Bernie Sanders didn’t force Hillary to cash six-figure checks from Goldman Sachs and the other big banks before running for president. She had to know how that would look and she did it anyway. He also didn’t force her to make her entire campaign message “Vote for me because Trump is an asshole.”
Oh, but I forgot. Establishment Democrats can’t fail, they can only be failed. Never mind, carry on.
SFBayAreaGal
Woohoo, like clockwork NR appears.
Major Major Major Major
@SFBayAreaGal: I have coding to do anyway.
NR
Oh and by the way, that horrible and evil Bernie Sanders is out there winning over Trump voters in real time.
But I’m sure you guys would have done just as well by screaming at her that she’s a racist over and over.
Elizabelle
This thread is dead. NR on the scene. Flee.
The Moar You Know
@schrodinger’s cat: Inception of humanity, never stopped since.
NR
@Elizabelle: So sorry to interrupt the circlejerk with facts.
ruckus
@MomSense:
That is a righteous rant. And I agree 1000 percent.
Major Major Major Major
Maybe NR is a bot that comes in to push threads over 500 comments.
tybee
@NR:
so when do all those converted dumpster voters get to vote for clinton?
NR
@tybee: There are future elections to think about, you know.
schrodinger's cat
@The Moar You Know: Wealth has always been important but knowledge and expertise used to be important too. Manhattan project wouldn’t have happened without it. Now its just worship of the uber wealthy.
Jaker
Putin, the world’s worst child serial killer (Syria) and Trump wants to be his bestest Buddy? The world is certainly these days run by the “Asylum”. And these two “Putin & Trump” are top of the “Maddie’s”!
rikyrah
@MomSense:
I feel ya…thank you
rikyrah
How Repealing Obamacare Will Affect Medicare
by Nancy LeTourneau
December 13, 2016 10:24 AM
For the moment, it appears that House Speaker Paul Ryan may have decided to table his plans to privatize Medicare, at least for right now. But Republicans continue to be united in their desire to make the repeal of Obamacare their number one priority next month – even as they struggle to find agreement on how to go about doing that.
We are hearing a lot of talk about how the repeal of Obamacare will affect – not only the 20 million people who have gained coverage since the law was enacted – but insurance companies, hospitals and entrepreneurs. We’re hearing less about how it will affect seniors who rely on Medicare – or the solvency of the program in the near future. The two programs are actually intimately intertwined and so repealing Obamacare weakens Medicare in some fundamental ways.
The one thing seniors would notice immediately if Obamacare is repealed is that the donut hole in Part D prescription drug coverage (enacted under President Bush) would reappear. In case you are unfamiliar with that, under the original plan, the 25% limit seniors paid for prescription drugs disappeared annually once total spending reached $2,800 and didn’t go into effect again until it reached $4,550. Within the donut hole, seniors were responsible for 100% of the cost of prescription drugs. Under Obamacare, the percentage paid by seniors in the donut hole was capped at 50% beginning in 2011 and continued to drop annually until the hole disappeared in 2020.
The Commonwealth Fund reported recently that, since 2010, 8 million seniors saved over $11.5 billion on prescription drugs due to the closing of the donut hole.
Medicare recipients might also notice another change when/if Obamacare is repealed. The law requires that all insurers provide free preventative care (including flu shots as well as screenings for cancer, diabetes and other chronic diseases). Since 2013, it is estimated that 37 million Medicare beneficiaries have benefited from this provision.
J R in WV
@tobie:
Occupy Wall Street, which had admirable and lofty aims, was led by crackpots with the political wisdom of chipmonks. These are the people who booed Congressman John Lewis, a man who knows something about difficult organizing campaigns, who was beaten by Selma Police with clubs and had dogs set on him by the Alabama State Police.
Any activist group unwilling to work with a hero like Lewis doesn’t deserve support from anyone, much less the Democratic Party.
I suspect this is a dead thread, I went to town and just got back and took up where I left off… oh well…