Can’t say you weren’t warned:
A Republican lawmaker introduced legislation Thursday to shore up Social Security’s finances and boost benefits for low-income workers without raising taxes, a conservative version of reform that could gain attention under unified GOP government next year.
The bill put forward by Texas’ Sam Johnson, the chairman of the subcommittee on Social Security, would reduce costs by changing the benefits formula to reduce payments progressively for high earners. It would also gradually raise the full retirement age from 67 to 69 for people who are today 49 or younger. Lastly, it would change the inflation metric used to calculate benefits to one that shows lower inflation, essentially slowing the growth in benefits, and eliminate cost of living adjustments for high earners.
On the flipside, it would increase benefits for lower-income workers, and raise the minimum benefit for low-earners who worked full careers.
They want ALL the fucking money. ALL OF IT.
And Carlin is right. They’ll get it. Unless Democrats fight.
(via)
Thoroughly Pizzled
They’re not going to waste any time. This is the Tea Party unleashed.
Mary G
What cost of living adjustments?
We need to fight this. People who do manual work don’t get to 69; the lazy bankers and pols and corporate executives who don’t ever lift a finger do.
The gray adder
49? That’s unusually generous. Most of these schemes include everyone age 55 and younger. I guess I can relax and watch my Fox News like my Dad’s generation.
Major Major Major Major
@Mary G: Believe it or not, aggregated nationwide the cost of living hasn’t actually gone up much.
Ohio Mom
I was an art major so military strategy is not a skill set. But how many fronts can we fight on at once? The post before this one was a call to arms about the purging of climate change scientists, every other post lists a different outrage that can’t be unanswered. I don’t know which way to turn first.
rikyrah
Soap Opera Fans…another loss..
Damn you, 2016.
Joseph Mascolo, who played Stefano DiMera – dead at 87.
Man, I loved me some Stefano, with his evil, rotten self.
rikyrah
This is who they are.
And, yes, we need to fight.
But, Hillary and emails….
Major Major Major Major
@Ohio Mom:
This is not by accident. I think the general understanding is that we fight entitlement cuts first, though.
jl
This bill is not as drastic as the version I read about at TPM blog earlier today. (Edit: but in one way may be more drastic and aims to destroy the program completely)
Here is the part to watch:
” Lastly, it would change the inflation metric used to calculate benefits to one that shows lower inflation, essentially slowing the growth in benefits, and eliminate cost of living adjustments for high earners. ”
Need to read the bill when I have time to see exactly what that means. If it changes inflation metric for those who have already retired, that would be a disguised cut that would be big for all recipients, and may amount to the ‘cut in half’ language I read at TPM blog. If it means that it would change indexing benefits from average real wage growth to inflation for all future beneficiaries, that is the Bush II gimmick that would effectively eliminate the program entirely in a few decades, without Congress going to the bother of legislating int out of existence. The real benefits under that scheme would be worth pennies to Millennials when they retire, for example.
This may be the GOP trying the Bush II scam again. If so, they are truly out of any new ideas, even new ideas for new cons.
Whatever it is, Trump should be asked about it, and if Trump has an honest bone in his body, Trump would promise a veto if it passes. I’m taking bets, but probably everyone here wants to be on the same side as I do.
hellslittlestangel
I suspect that most other Republicans will regard this as wild-eyed, welfare-state, liberalism, and by their standards, it is. Reducing high-earner benefits is not too much different from raising the cap on taxable earnings. And it — *shudder* — increases payouts to low-income Americans.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Mary G: Lucky to make 55. Perhaps these Red State voters should demand their legislators work in a lumber mill for a month?
RaflW
Oh FFS! Instead of reducing high earner’s benefits, tax high earner’s income. This is how we know right off the bat that the goal is to end SS. First, tinker with the inflation mechanism/stop it entirely for high earners.
Then start defining down who is a high earner. Pretty soon, Aunt Heather with the 5 cats will be ejecting her cats from her unaffordable efficiency apartment and eating their catfood.
Betty Cracker
Given the pressures of automation, globalization, etc., a forward-thinking country would be thinking of ways to lower the retirement age to free up jobs for younger workers. Of course, a forward-thinking country wouldn’t have elected Trump, not even on a technicality.
Gotta be honest, though: the Republicans’ willingness to not only grasp but HUMP the third rail before Trump is even sworn in makes me a tiny bit hopeful. It’s not wise to count on them to set their own crotches on fire every time they gain control, but damned if they don’t do it damn near every fucking time.
rikyrah
I have never despised a group of voters as I do those who voted for Ferret Head. My reaction to them is visceral.
jl
@The gray adder:
‘ 49? That’s unusually generous. Most of these schemes include everyone age 55 and younger. ‘
Not generosity, but calculation. The GOP tried bribing/threatening those down to 55 for the Bush II gimmicks and they didn’t have nearly enough takers. They figure more dupes susceptible to being snookered by bribes and threats in the 49 to 54 age range, and it might squeak by this time. This sounds more like a re-run of the Bush II con from what is in the linked article.
azlib
I think they are overeaching on this one. It is an opportunity to set them back on their heels. The details are pretty daujnting (I read the report from Social Security to the Congresscritter). I think this gets fought by just saying “no” loud and clear to every Congressperson we can call or write.
What is really irritating is SSI can be made solvent by raising the cap on earnings gradually over time. It will affect my taxes, but it is worth it to make the system solvent for the long run.
Inmourning
Another day, another reason to hit the phones and call my elected representatives. I remember when St. Reagan raised payroll taxes to “fix” SS. My spouse was self-employed, so we paid the entire increase. It took a bite out of our income, but we believe in the program and paid it willingly. Now I feel like a chump.
tofubo
the next four years will make the pallet’s of 100’s shipped to iraq look like a someone losing a quarter
don’t show this to john: https://scontent.ford1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15267687_1811416842459827_3415253524058635408_n.jpg?oh=49ca34b51a60be58e7e771a3c0e6a671&oe=58F02ABF
Raven Onthill
“Unless Democrats fight.”
We are so screwed.
Josh Marshall has more.
Bobby D
Great news!
First, I see they are coming for us public sector environmental engineers and scientists. Then, as a chaser, I see they want to raise SS age yet again, always fucking us Gen-Xers at every turn. My entire life has been one episode after another of spoiled ass baby boomers playing out their “IGMFY” game against the younger generations. It was good enough for them, but apparently too good for us, despite the fact that I’ve paid into the damn thing since I was 15 years old.
Served
The life expectancy in Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, and West Virginia is 75 years. And at the rate that rural whites are pillpopping themselves to death, they’ll be lucky if it’s 70 in a decade.
Tee
@azlib: The problem is that we want to invest in our people, country etc and they just want to loot it. Increasing the cap on what is paid in makes sense.
jl
@azlib: By threatening to vote against average cowardly House creep, and to put time and money on opponent in next election, we can fight on many fronts at once. Will take more planning, since will be writing a letter a week rather than a few a year. But most have PC’s and can make up a few customize-able templates.
Phoning in will take less planning: a few state leg and Congressional numbers on speed dial.
gogol's wife
@Ohio Mom:
That’s my problem. And that’s Trump’s strategy.
Mary G
@Major Major Major Major: Oh, I know. Last year Social Security got no cost of living raise at all and for 2017 it’s 0.3 percent. So if they’re reducing it, they plan to eliminate it. Not a problem for me, but medical costs and housing costs went up a lot more than that.
Iowa Old Lady
OT but another outrage: A friend who lives in Kansas can’t find a doctor who’s willing to tie her tubes even though she’s 45.
Iowa Old Lady
@Mary G: Right. The COLA index they used for SS was already on the low side since it was based on average household purchases while seniors spend a much bigger percentage on health care.
jl
@Raven Onthill: Thanks for link. Still too few details to see exactly how this matches the Bush II con. Especially on details of how adjustments to initial benefits upon retirement work. Linking those to average real wage growth is key to keeping the program from fading away into triviality.
Weaselone
The lower inflation adjustment and it’s phase out at higher payouts is the key here. Eventually, that cut’s into real benefits even for low earners, especially if what counts as a lower earnings is either not adjusted by inflation or is adjusted at a rate below actual inflation.
Cicada
@Ohio Mom: Right now we’re in the “oh crap, it’s all terrible” phase. One Trump takes office, there will be concrete actions to act against.
Don’t get me wrong, there is going to be a ton of horrible stuff coming down the pike. But the actions to take will become clearer as the agenda takes shape.
Ohio Mom
@Bobby D: If you read the comments on this blog carefully, you’ll note that a lot of us are baby boomers. We are not your enemy.
Your enemy is that club Carlin talks about in the video clip. Go watch the whole thing (I am sure it is easy to google). That club wants you to think it is the boomers screwing you over. Don’t fall for it.
Bobby D
@rikyrah: I hear ya, my problem (one of them anyway), is that most of my family members voted for the tangerine turd. And now a pair of them want financial help from me, and not a little bit either, they need about 50k to keep from losing their home. And they think I should help them, despite them just voting for a guy that is actively working to destroy my career (I’m fed civil servant in environmental field) and thus ability to make money. I am real tempted to tell them, “sorry you dumb fukin Trumpkins, actions have consequences. Since you voted for a guy that is trying to put me out of work, I can’t afford to spend or loan you any money. So go ask your boy Trump for a loan, you’re on you own!”
Still on the fence. The temptation to throw it in their face is pretty strong. Of course that would end any relationship with about half my family, but that’s looking like a small price to pay to drive home to these morons that this isn’t a fucking game. People’s lives, careers, and futures depend on a functional govt that cares about its constituents, and these goons elected an unqualified, self-serving, certifiable moron, to “send a message”.
rikyrah
Trump’s Team Is Trying to Figure Out How to Upend Obama’s Climate Policy
by Nancy LeTourneau
December 9, 2016 3:35 PM
A few days ago, Politico reported that Trump was basically ignoring his policy team that is at work crafting plans for how the administration will govern. But Catherine Traywick and Jennifer A Dlouhy got a scoop on what some of those folks are digging into with regards to energy policy.
Advisers to President-elect Donald Trump are developing plans to reshape Energy Department programs, help keep aging nuclear plants online and identify staff who played a role in promoting President Barack Obama’s climate agenda.
Most of the reaction to that news has been to focus on the targeting of employees and contractors – which is, indeed, ominous. But it’s also interesting to pair that information with an article by Valerie Volcovici and David Shepardson titled, “Trump’s EPA pick could have a surprisingly tough time dismantling Obama’s environmental legacy.” In listing the hurdles Scott Pruitt might face in an effort to dismantle the climate change efforts put in place by the Obama administration, they included this:
GregB
@Bobby D:
May I recommend giving them a stocking with coal and a nice new Trump: Fuck Your Feelings t-shirt?
Remind them about the soul invigorating concept of moral hazard.
rikyrah
Wonder if Chris Hayes and Bernie will ask those stupid muthaphuckas in Wisconsin how they feel about Ferret Head coming for Social Security, Medicare and Obamacare.
Just wonder if those questions will purse their lips.
Mk3873
I am endlessly amazed @ GOP’s ability to get people to vote against their own best interests. Social security, Medicare, minimum wage hikes are all popular policies.
germy
@Bobby D: Can’t you just tell them you’re too financially insecure (fed civil servant who will be laid off by the new administration) and worried about cuts to the safety net?
Just say “Gee I’d love to help you, but I’m not sure what my situation will be in ’17.”
rikyrah
@Bobby D:
I don’t even know how you could be on the fence. They will be after Civil Service employees next.
MomSense
@rikyrah:
Oh no!! I used to watch that show with my grandma when I stayed home sick from school. I think Stefano died when I was in 3rd grade and then in college I happened to turn on the tv just in time to see his character back on the screen. He hadn’t aged a day in all those years.
Miss Bianca
@Bobby D: I’m not sure I’d be on the fence about this one. Unless it means that they’d be moving in with you.
However, if you have $50k to spray around on your relatives you must be doing a hell of a lot better financially than this baby boomer.
Ohio Mom
@azlib: A technicality:
SSI is for disabled people who will never fully support themselves are(and not sure but I think also for a few other categories like terminal cancer patients).
SSDI is for workers who have paid in for 40 quarters and have since become disabled (for example, someone severely injured in a work place accident).
SS is for workers who have paid in for forty quarters and have reached retirement age.
There are other variations, for example for kids who have lost a parent. It’s a big complicated program. The average person only knows snippets about it, and that lack of background info is on the granny starvers’ side.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
This way. Hanging this on them will taint everything else. Unfortunately, and for a lot of reasons, very few people feel strongly about environmental issues. Lots of people feel strongly about Social Security
Bill_D
@Ohio Mom: SSI is for both aged and disabled people who meet a strict means test, so it’s a kind of welfare. The acronym stands for Supplemental Security Income.
It’s funded out of general federal and state revenues. Financially it’s not part of the Social Security system, but it is run by the Social Security Administration.
Ohio Mom
@Bobby D: Tell them the Red Cross says not to even try to rescue a drowning person if there is any chance you will drown too.
I have had to turn away a family member in straights. It was hard to do and our relationship has never been the same. But other family members do not hold it against me and even if they did, I would do the same again.
Ohio Mom
@Bill_D: Thanks! You would think I would know more because my disabled teen just was awarded SSI last month but I am still learning.
dlm
@Bobby D: As one person pointed out, don’t blame the baby boomers. This is what they want. If we fight to the death among ourselves, we will never go after them. Also, if I were you, I would not lend or give 50K to anybody. You don’t know if you’ll have a job in the near future.
gogol's wife
@GregB:
That would be my advice too.
JPL
@rikyrah: NO
Timurid
Remember all those Villager columns about burning down the welfare state and reveling in the joys of war to the knife meritocracy, that should all have been written starting with ‘when I’m King’ because they had no chance of becoming reality in our democratic system? Well, they have their King now.
hoodie
The whole thing is a divide and conquer strategy designed to turn Social Security into a welfare program that they can then demonize. Cut benefits to high wage earners, who will be pissed that they’ll be getting less from a program they’re paying so much into. It’s a great scam because the GOP doesn’t even have to offer them anything in return, such as lower Social Security tax rates. They’ll basically be offering a lower level of income insurance for those folks for a relatively high price, and the 0.1 per cent won’t have to pay a nickel because their income is mostly not from wages. They’ll offer the carrot of an expanded private tax-advantaged scheme (an enhanced 401(k)) to the higher wage earners, but that’s just a way of delivering nice fees to Wall St. while further beggaring the government.
Kay
@The gray adder:
They can’t raise it on them. They were originally at 65 and then included in the first increase- when it went from 65 to 67.
Feathers
So, basically, they are negating Reagan’s plan to “save Social Security. And it basically involves defaulting on Treasury bonds. Do they seriously think that won’t have other consequences? If they default on America’s retirees now, what is to keep Mr. Ugh from defaulting on the bonds held by China or anyone else whose money he decides would be better served in the pockets of his cronies?
@Bobby D: If someone is that deep in the hole, will a loan even help? Are they trying to avoid bankruptcy? Not your problem. But, yeah, your job may be gone, so I wouldn’t.
Quinerly
@rikyrah:
Haven’t watched Days of Our Lives in years. I, too, loved me some Stefano. On line article said he had battled Alzheimer’s for years. When did he leave the show?
Mary G
@Bobby D: @Ohio Mom: This “boomers screwed the millennials over and kept all the shit for themselves” is one of my pet peeves. It’s just another way Republicans try to divide us. Reagan raised the Social Security age in the 80s. I’m a boomer and if I wasn’t disabled, my retirement age for full SS would be 66 and 2 months. For boomers younger than me, it goes up to 67.
Companies have been bleeding benefits for twenty some years. I don’t feel like Googling the exact number, but more than half of people my age have no savings at all and will either be working until they drop or under the freeway with the sparrow on the curtain rod.
There is a certain number of white male boomers who went to the dark side and bought into “Greed is Good” and IGMFY, but you can’t tar an entire generation with that brush. Some of us are lifelong DFHs. I put on an entire day’s program for the first Earth Day in 1970 when I was a sophomore in high school and I’ve been advocating for the environment for the last 46 years.
Barbara
@Bobby D: You should indeed consider telling them that you cannot help on the basis that due to Trump being president there is a heightened risk that you will be out of a job within the next few years if not months and other people (spouse? kids? parents?) have a stronger claim on you that makes asset preservation paramount. It is sad that they are losing their home, and you might be able to help them figure out how to avoid that other than “loaning” them money. I helped my sister through a difficult patch but, like me, she is as liberal as the day is long and she had accumulated debt after being laid off from her job as a teacher by a school district that waited until every other school had already made hiring decisions for the next year. I am so tired of the one sided nature of the social contract that is always supposed to be there for them but not anyone else. I can’t think of any other way to keep them from burning the whole house down except to let them bear the risks of playing with matches around gasoline.
Baud
@Bobby D: I wouldn’t lend $50K to Hillary voting relatives I cared about even if I won the lottery.
Maybe I belong with the Republicans. :-(
Yarrow
@Ohio Mom:
Right now there’s not a lot concrete we can do except to organize ourselves and call our congressional representatives. So do those things.
Your Democratic representatives – House and Senate – need to stiffen their spines and be prepared to stand up to EVERYTHING the Republicans want to do. Call and tell them that’s what you want them to do. Your Republican representatives need to know we’re out here. Call them and let them know. Tell them you don’t want SS cut. Etc.
While you’re on the phone with the people at your representatives’ office ask when their next town hall is when they’re back in your district. They should be there soon. Put it on your calendar and show up. Make your voice heard.
Kay
They’re going to turn it into a poverty program and then it won’t have any public support or support in Congress.
It’s so gross how they always target it. They can’t keep their greedy mitts off it and it’s the best social program the US ever produced. They have to ruin it- it’s like there’s rooms of people sitting around planning how to ruin it.
Just pass a law that none of them can ever change it. Then they’ll find other things fuck with.
rikyrah
@Bobby D:
You should turn them down. I would do it out of spite. But, on a real tip, you might not have a job in 12 months.
Quinerly
@rikyrah:
Had a new to me carpenter/drywall guy drop by for a bid earlier today. We chatted for a few minutes and then I asked him flat out who he voted for. He smiled, told me how much he hated Trump. We laughed and talked politics over my kitchen table. He said he took one look at me and my house and knew I was a Dem. He is refusing to work for Trump voters. I told him he should just overcharge them…he said he refuses to be in the same room with them.
trollhattan
@Iowa Old Lady:
The hell? They all a-skeert of Brownback or something?
We did have a regional kerfuffle when a Catholic hospital refused to tie the tubes of a woman scheduled to give birth there. I can’t figure how they get away with this shit while retaining tax-exempt status.
Barbara
@Bobby D: @Mary G: Mary G., as a fellow baby boomer, albeit at the tail end, I think the reality is more like this: baby boomers benefited from a nearly unprecedented level of public investment in their future, especially for cheap public tuition, a strong commitment to public schools generally. Right at about the time that the last boomer was getting ready to leave college, all of a sudden, the most important public goal bar none was to make taxes lower than they had been at almost anytime in the 20th century. That led to an unprecedented disinvestment from public education at all levels. Programs that were enacted in the 60s will be mostly available to baby boomers but are actively being put on the chopping block for those who are younger than I am. Boomers are among the demographic MOST likely to vote Republican. Don’t get me wrong, we are all individuals and we should show loyalty to the social compact regardless of demographic, but as a generation, boomers have been more self-serving when it comes to public policy than the two generations that preceded them.
Bobby D
@Miss Bianca: What would you do Miss B?
They aren’t going to live with me (they are in the SE, I’m in CA), but if I don’t help them they will lose their home and property, which has been in our family for generations. The only reason I have that much money in liquid assets is that I’m trying to buy a house and that’s my down-payment money I’ve been saving up for the last 6 years. I am renting at the moment and looking for homes, to the tune of $1200/mo in rent. But if I help the family, I can’t buy a house and that’s about 10k/yr I’m losing by renting instead of buying.
I’m really struggling with this one. If they had somewhere to go, I’d tell them “sorry, can’t help”. But they really don’t. They are poor and retired. It feels like a no-win situation.
I feel like all I do these days is whine and moan about things. I’m really struggling, and pretty disoriented, lashing out and can’t concentrate. This election has affected me way more than I expected, and I’m not dealing with it well at all. I think part of it is the continual, uninterrupted barrage of eye-popping bullshit flowing out of these Trumpkins, I never get a chance to re-calibrate and get my bearings, just bounce from one outrage to another. It’s exhausting.
But, on the upside, we are getting much needed rain on the central coast the last couple of days, and we’re hoping it continues, we need a lot more to fill CA reservoirs and ameliorate the drought a bit. Enjoy your weekends, I think I’ll probably sleep away about half of it.
Bostondreams
@Bobby D:
You have no obligation to help them. After all, if they had made better choices, they wouldn’t be in this situation. Bootstraps and all that.
Mary G
@Bobby D: That is a no-win situation. I’m sorry you are having to deal with it. Hoping for rain farther south too. We have a 57% chance next Thursday.
JustRuss
@Bobby D: You can turn them down and let them know that elections have consequences without being a jerk about it. Tell them that Trump’s pick to head the EPA indicates he doesn’t value what you do at all and there’s probably going to be some major cutting, that might fall on you. So you gotta save for that rainy day.
It sucks, my wife was just in the same situation (most of her family went Trump too!).
Kay
I don’t think Democrats have any obligation to tell the truth when they’re demonizing this. Go for broke. Create the SS version of “death panels” and fan out for media appearances.
There can’t be two sets of rules. If one side isn’t tied the facts the other side isn’t either.
Republicans won in 2010 lying about Obamacare and Medicare. Them’s the rules now and they set them. Let’s see how they like it when the shoe is on the other foot.
The real defining characteristic of Trump voters isn’t “white working class”, it’s “old”. Scream bloody murder that Trump is cutting Social Security and don’t bother with any details. That’s what Republicans would do.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
tough call, but if they can’t afford it now, and are poor and retired, my guess is you’d be putting a band-aid on a gushing leak.
ETA: I’d leave politics out of it. They won’t change and they won’t learn. In my immediate family, no one voted for Trump. I know some of my cousins, aunts and uncles did, including a couple I’m fairly close to. I don’t feel as close to them now. I won’t try to change their minds, but I’m not making any effort to see them over the holidays, which are crowded and stressful enough this year even without politics.
SiubhanDuinne
@Iowa Old Lady:
Her first mistake.
Baud
@Kay:
That’s difficult to pull off with our current media playing tie-breaker.
Miss Bianca
@Bobby D: Honestly, I don’t know. The last time I ever had to deal with money and relatives, it went badly. Now I wish I had told them all to go to hell and kept the family house for myself rather than sell it to give them what they thought they were entitled to, but…you can’t go back in time.
In your case, I might consider buying the house myself and telling the poor Trump-voting relations that they are there on sufferance and only if they pay you a fair market-rate rent. And that they never, ever, open their yaps about anything political in your presence again. But that may not be practical. Or your style.
Bobby D
I appreciate the input everyone, sorry for turning the comments section into a BobbyD psych therapy session.
Edit to add: Miss Bianca, that sounds workable, maybe the best option of all, thanks!
Taylor
@Bobby D: If I were you, I would take the most exquisite pleasure in saying no.
There are going to be more deserving people that you can loan/donate money to, in the dark years that lie ahead. You may need it yourself.
Baud
@Bobby D: Eh, it’s better than our normal fare. Good luck with your decision.
schrodinger's cat
@Kay: I like the way you think. You should be the Democratic Chanakya.
trollhattan
@Mary G:
The Boomer’s essential failure was not spawning enough kids to pack the following demographic so enough contributed to SS, Medicare, income tax and the like. But the pill and lack of faith in the planet’s ability to feed three billion people (hah!) stanched that.
Baud
@schrodinger’s cat: Kay for DNC chair!
Yarrow
@Bobby D:
If you buy a house can you pay the mortgage if you lose your job? Maybe determine that before buying a house given your job situation. Maybe consult a financial adviser?
Just because someone thinks you “should” do something doesn’t mean that it’s the right thing for you. Right now it sounds like you are tearing up yourself inside. That is not helping you or anyone else. Can you imagine doing one thing and then the other thing and see how it feels? Do you feel more strongly one way? If so, then that is your answer as difficult as it is.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@trollhattan: also not inventing the Flying Car, or at least a Jet Pack. Carbon neutral, of course.
Miss Bianca
@Bobby D: Hope it helps, just remember…you get what you pay for! ; )
@Baud: I’d second that emotion!
RoonieRoo
@Bobby D: I must belong with the Republicans too as I genuinely do not understand why you would save for 6 years and then just give it to relatives that most likely got themselves into this situation based on decisions they made. And based on your description, it will be 1) a gift (they will never pay it back) and 2) in reality is much more that $50k due to opportunity loss of purchasing a house vs rent.
Has someone always bailed them out of bad decisions? I just cannot even fathom asking or ever remotely expecting 50k from a family member regardless of the result. What kind of people expect that other that people that make bad decisions knowing that someone else will always bail them out of it and never suffer a consequence?
satby
@Bobby D: I’m old and I just lost a home after a layoff. You don’t have the financial security you need to be loaning such a huge sum, and it wouldn’t be a loan because they’ll never be in a position to pay it back. Sounds like voting for the PGiC wasn’t their only bad decision, but you can’t help them by impoverishing yourself.
Yarrow
@Kay:
Yes!! Exactly. Dems need to be on offense all the time now. Push back on everything. Get a slogan for it. Show up at your Rep’s town hall. Make a fuss.
trollhattan
@Bobby D:
Buddy of mine has an older sister who’s a human sponge–willing to suck resources and energy out of anybody who lets her (one of her two kids is basically her twin). Even had their parents take out a reverse mortgage on their home to pay for her…whatever it was that time. He told me she was after him for a “loan” to pay medical expenses (hypochondriac plus a doctor-shopper) I suggested giving her a lesser amount while stipulating that was the only time. And it worked!
So, maybe that? It would suck to have your entire family mad at you. I do think looming job instability needs to me mentioned–let the morons connect the dots their own damn selves. And best of luck.
RoonieRoo
@Miss Bianca: That is the best idea I’ve seen. That way Bobby doesn’t see a family home get “lost”, mitigates some of the opportunity cost and makes you a way better person than me. :)
Barbara
@Bobby D: My husband’s family has owned land for generations so I know how that works. On the other hand, do you actually see yourself going back there at any time? Other than the sentimental value of keeping land in the family, is there really any intrinsic value to staying on that parcel of property? In my spouse’s case, his family put a lot of effort into renovating the house, so that would make it hard to lose, but if it weren’t for the house, when it comes down to it, the property is nice and all, but it’s not special and land comes up for sale all the time nearby.
If these people are elderly and they really want to stay, you could propose the following: You will buy their land for whatever it costs to stave off foreclosure and you will own the title. They will have a life interest in staying in the house, but upon their death, the property will belong to you and you can sell it if you want including taking whatever profit is made over and above what you paid for it. This is what my father in law did with one of our relatives. If they reject that bargain for them, then, you know, you tried. But I wouldn’t blame you for just going ahead and buying your own house where you plan to make your own future.
jl
@Kay:
” I don’t think Democrats have any obligation to tell the truth when they’re demonizing this. Go for broke. Create the SS version of “death panels” and fan out for media appearances.”
But the Democrats will be telling the truth, IMHO, if the GOP whacks both Medicare and Social Security. They will be creating economic death panels, and they will have no mercy whatever. And a lot of Trump supporting fools will be among the more vulnerable. I called it ‘geriatricide’ in an earlier thread and I was expressing my honest opinion.
This this is bad?
Why US Life Expectancy Went Down in 2016
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2016/1208/Why-US-life-expectancy-went-down-in-2015
You ain’t seen nothing yet if the GOP gets its way.
rikyrah
@Kay:
That is right. bomb away.
There. Is. No. Common. Ground.
Waynski
@Bobby D: “Still on the fence. The temptation to throw it in their face is pretty strong. Of course that would end any relationship with about half my family…”
Matt
@Bobby D: I’d tell them they’re on their own. If they want your money they could sign over their house to you.
Barbara
@Barbara: @Bobby D: Editing to add that if they have existing plans to bequeath this property to their own offspring, this plan would never work because they will make your life hell if you sell it. Their children — the ones who plan to inherit it — should try to figure out how to resolve this mess.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@trollhattan:
Considering the awesomeness of that.
jackmac
I am less than 24 hours from qualifying for Social Security (I turn 62 on Saturday) and have had several conversations with the spouse about waiting until 66 to start collecting. Under the current formula I’d get more and qualify for Medicare at the same time at that later date. Right now I’m waiting, but am terrified that one or both of the programs will be so drastically altered by these thieving Republican a**holes that a relatively tight, but doable retirement will become a nightmare. And the prospect of SS and Medicare for people younger — especially my kids — seems to be a vanishing prospect. I hate Republicans with a white hot passion over many things, but none more than this. I live in a Midwestern blue state with a Democratic congressman who I believe will do his best to protect both programs, but I fear that he and other Dems will be steamrolled. Finally, my parents died when I was a kid and I received Social Security survivors benefits which helped keep me afloat, especially in my college years. I am forever grateful to a nation and a system that was there to help. It is the height of hypocrisy that a leader like House Speaker Paul Ryan — who received EXACTLY THE SAME BENEFITS — would seek to alter or torpedo any part of Social Security.
DCF
Pelosi and Reid are in denial about the current state of the Democratic Party establishment. Schumer, on the other hand, appears to have learned from the recent electoral debacle:
Will Democrats Ever Stop Punching Themselves In The Face?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkDcUO6gBhM
How Schumer and the Democrats are preparing to fight
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/schumer-and-the-democrats-craft-their-attack-plan/2016/12/09/f02c42f8-be1a-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html?utm_term=.7757f9d9af3b
Ksmiami
@Iowa Old Lady: That’s what they voted for. Remember the anti-abortion fight is a front to just eliminating all forms of birth control and putting women back in their place. That’s why there can never be accommodation only battle.
donna
@Ohio Mom: Amen to that. We are all in this together. I’ll be dead and gone but it’s what I manage to leave behind.
Ksmiami
@jackmac: P.S. They best way to fight them is to go after Ryan and McConnell. Don’t go after Trump directly. Fight the GOP. Remember; they want your money and they want you dead. Repeat often. Trump voters did not vote for Medicare and Social Security dismantling.
trollhattan
@Comrade Scrutinizer:
My buddy will declare “Don’t get me started” to which I have to respond, “Oh, just one story” while handing hm a beer. An hour later half my hair will be singed off and he may or may not be finished
It’s quite the family. Loved his parents to death–the most generous, kind people I’ve ever known. How the daughter ended up queen of all things is beyond me.
azlib
@Ohio Mom:
Thanks for the clarification. Federal acronyms and initials are confusing.
p.a.
Don’t forget, step 1 is: kinda-sorta increase bennies for the poor.
step 2: condemn the program as ‘welfare’ and butcher it (now that the middle class doesn’t qualify.)
Poopyman
@Bobby D: A simple honest reply would be “I can’t. I have no idea whether I’ll have a job next year.”
joel hanes
@Baud:
I wouldn’t lend $50K
Never loan money to family members.
If you can afford to do so, and are so inclined, give them whatever portion of the money you can afford to never see again.
Loans poison personal relationships when the debtor is less than responsible.
joel hanes
@Barbara:
Right at about the time that the last boomer was getting ready to leave college, all of a sudden, the most important public goal bar none was to make taxes lower than they had been at almost anytime in the 20th century.
This may be true, but if so, the voters and lawmakers at fault are not Boomers, but the Greatest Generation and Silent Generation who are our parents and who went for Nixon and then _really_ went for Reagan.
Это курам на смех
@trollhattan: The boomers’ kids are the millennials (aka echo boomers) as afaik there are as many of them as us. Don’t blame us for the smaller Gen X cohort.
Zinsky
@Betty Cracker: Betty – you have such a way with words. You make me smile with every post. You should have your own blog and lose the grumpy f*ck who runs this one.
opiejeanne
@Это курам на смех: two of my kids are gen Y. The youngest is maybe a millennial.
Barbara
@joel hanes: I give up. Boomers are the most Republican demographic. They have had 36 years to reverse or turn away from Reagan and they have not. They have some responsibility here. Not all by any stretch but it seems silly to say they deserve no blame.
Another Scott
@Barbara: Obama is a Boomer. (I’m one too.) Obama didn’t vote for Reagan, and neither did I. Boomers are a big and complicated demographic – don’t generalize too much. ;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Lizzy L
@Barbara: What Another Scott says. I’m a boomer. So are many many solid liberal Democrats who are fighting mad and working out strategies to resist even as we post our comments. Don’t generalize too much.
Barbara
@Another Scott: And my mom and dad were greatest generation and never once in their lives voted Republican. The issue is trends and averages. If every boomer voted for Clinton she would be president.
laura
@Bobby D: rear back and throw it on their faces because it’s true and, as we’ve been taught, put your air mask on first. If you can’t save yourself, you can’t assist others.
You must prioritize your ability to be responsible for yourself. You cannot expect that you would be made whole, and so no.
Good luck.
prob50
Do they have enough equity to do a reverse mortgage? It sounds like they probably don’t, but it might be worth exploring.
RinaX
I know I’m a lurker and late to the party on this, but don’t do it, BobbyD. It’s not a loan. You won’t get that money back. You are going to feel awful either way, but feel awful in a way that doesn’t wipe out your savings. Given your current situation, who knows when you will have a job again that will allow you to save up enough for a down payment again?
It sucks, and it’s awful, but if your relatives are in this position at this stage in their life, it’s pretty much on them. Since you don’t even live in that area, I don’t think I’d even bother buying the property. Won’t you still have to pay rent? If they’re in such dire straits, can they even afford to pay you a fair rate? What happens if they just stop paying? Then you’re stuck supporting them and in the even harder position of deciding whether to evict them because you’re now paying for that property AND rent.
YOU are doing the right thing and have saved a nest egg that you might desperately need a year from now. AGAIN, feel awful in a way that doesn’t mess up your own finances. My .02.