Today, Rep. Keith Ellison removed one of the barriers to his bid to become DNC chair: He said he’d step down as congressman if elected:
WASHINGTON – U.S. Rep. Keith Ellison will vacate his congressional seat if he wins the chairman job at the Democratic National Committee, he told the Star Tribune Wednesday morning.
Ellison conceded Wednesday that a full-time chair is what the party wanted after the losses of the 2016 presidential and congressional elections. He said he came to the decision after difficult soul-searching and hearing from the more than 400 voting members of the DNC who said they wouldn’t vote him as long as he was a sitting member of Congress.
I haven’t paid much attention to the DNC chair race since at times it seems akin to polishing the mooring line eyelets for the approaching Hindenburg. But assuming Trump isn’t wholly successful in establishing an authoritarian kleptocracy and using his new powers to smear opponents and suppress a sufficient number of voters to eliminate the possibility of electoral gains over the next year or so, we’ll need a man or woman with a plan for 2018 and beyond.
The little I’ve heard from Ellison since the Trumpocalypse, I’ve liked. He was a Bernie guy in the primary but a surrogate for Clinton in the general. He was one of the first Democrats who recognized that Trump could win — I seem to remember a CNN panel laughing in his face at the suggestion — but Ellison was right when many Democrats, including me, were wrong.
But crucially, IMO, Ellison doesn’t buy the theory that the Democrats need throw nonwhites, women, religious minorities and LGBT folks under the bus and shift focus to the white working class to win. He points out that, as a black man and a Muslim, he wins in a majority white district because he knows how to build bridges while upholding the party’s core principles.
The ADL called some of Ellison’s statements on Israel “disturbing and disqualifying.” Ellison has also come under fire for his work organizing the Million Man March, in which he defended Louis Farrakhan in writing. In a recent essay, Ellison admits this was a mistake.
I understand the objections, but I’m inclined to give Ellison the benefit of the doubt; I think he’s earned it through his consistently good work as a congressman and high profile Democrat. What do y’all think?
Tim C.
I’m pro both the major candidates. Both of them seem to “get it” in terms of why we got hammered where we did and what we need to do to fight back in the coming years.
Here’s a statement from the other major candidate, Ilyse Hogue
https://extranewsfeed.com/moving-forward-ideas-for-the-dnc-d0cbf490a9fb#.2ak8oxio9
And both of them are light years better than DWS
schrodinger's cat
STOP with the preemptive defeatism.
Other than that, word.
Roger Moore
This was apparently based on an out of context snippet- presented by an anti-Muslim bigot- from a much longer talk.
rikyrah
I don’t want him. Period.
There has to be someone else.
The Moar You Know
Nope. Find someone else.
Britlaw
I heard Ellison on a conference call two days after the election and he seemed very cool-headed and effective. I think he realizes the strengths Democrats can build from and how to avoid missteps. Plus he has benefit of turning many preconceptions about the mid-West on their head.
But, what about the seat?
schrodinger's cat
@rikyrah: Why not? I know next to nothing about him, except the Bernie support and his religion.
rikyrah
@schrodinger’s cat:
I just think that we could do better.
schrodinger's cat
@rikyrah: Your suggestion for the post? I like Harry Reid.
Chris
Yep. Far better to have this be what comes out of the Sanders wing of the party than someone like, bluntly, Bernie Sanders.
Chris
@Britlaw:
This is my only concern.
Keith P.
I’m withholding judgement until I know what song he’s playing on that guitar.
Major Major Major Major
So, in other words, we’ll need a man or woman with a plan for 2018 and beyond.
VOR
@Britlaw: Ellison is smart. He was sworn in on a Koran owned by Thomas Jefferson. I thought that was very clever.
HRA
Yes! He has my vote. Great post, Betty!
geg6
I honestly don’t know much about the guy, so I just don’t know. Seen him a few times on tv, but he didn’t make much of an impression. But I’m not sure that really matters. What does he know about organizing? What is his track record? Was he doing the actual organizing or was he a pol with a bunch of aides who did most of the organizing?
If he has great strategic and organizing abilities and has proven them over many years, I’m fine with him. Not sure it really matters anyway.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
What about the important issues:
His counter tops?
Are the trees the right hight in his yard?
EMAILS!
But beyond that his resume does sound like he has the right idea.
rikyrah
@schrodinger’s cat:
I like Joey B or Harry Reid.
Turgidson
@Chris:
He won the Minneapolis-area seat initially with 55% in a 3 way race and hasn’t received less than 67% of the vote since. That sounds like a seat the Democrats should hold unless they run Anthony Weiner.
Alex S
The Sanders wing of the party is undeniably the future path the Democrats must take, so I suggest we lean into the surf on this pick. Debbie WS was/is the tool of the payday loan industry and a horrifying failure as DNC Chair.
JMG
The job of DNC chair is threefold. 1. Party organizing. 2. Fundraising. 3. Party spokesperson. Ellison has shown he can do 3. I don’t know about 1 and 2, which is not to say he can’t do them, just don’t know enough about his record in those areas.
HRA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Ellison
Chris
@Turgidson:
Good.
MaxUtil
@rikyrah: Better how? I’m not trolling, but your answer seems to be content free. I genuinely don’t know much about Ellison. Is there a reason we can or should try to ‘do better’?
schrodinger's cat
@rikyrah: Who is Joey B? Biden?
Patricia Kayden
@schrodinger’s cat: Yep. Trump is going to come with his bad self but we have to go harder. He and his ilk can be defeated. The good thing is that Trump’s favorability ratings are bad and can only sink further as his supporters start having regrets about voting for him.
Patricia Kayden
@rikyrah: What’s wrong with him?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@schrodinger’s cat: Yes, come on. Nothing Trump has done has shown Trump is good at anything beyond conning the gullible much less the kind of systematic and detailed orientated effort that a mass nation wide voter suppression would require. As it is his the loss in the popular vote shows it won’t take much to drive people away from him in droves.
Betty Cracker
@Tim C.: She makes a very persuasive case. I also like Tom Perez, but he hasn’t thrown his hat into the ring yet. Biden has already said he doesn’t want the job.
Roger Moore
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
He doesn’t have to do it himself. In practice, voter suppression will be handled by the state parties, which have shown themselves to be willing, eager, and capable of doing the job. All Trump has to do is make sure DOJ stays out of their way.
Chris
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Oh, come on. You know perfectly well that Trump himself won’t be doing anything as vulgar as actually overseeing the process himself. He’ll just say “make it happen” and leave the details to the hundreds of Republican operators and politicians in the legislature, in the federal agencies, at the state level, and at the local level. He won’t ever have to say “make it happen,” they’ll do it on their own because they’ve been wanting it for years.
There may be lots of good reasons not to worry about nationwide voter suppression, but Trump’s attention span isn’t one of them. If he were the only one who wanted to do this, it would be. But once again, the entire party is the problem, not him.
Betty Cracker
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: You don’t think a GOP dominated congress at the federal level and GOP-dominated statehouses in the majority of states can damage voting rights even more significantly than they’ve already done, especially with people like Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III at DOJ and Kris Kobach advising Trump? You don’t think a malignant narcissist like Trump is capable of using an incredibly powerful position to smear opponents and silence dissent? Well, I sure do hope you’re right, but I don’t fully share you optimism.
Mary Jo
I’m fully in favor.
hovercraft
Kos compares Ellison and Hogue
schrodinger's cat
@Roger Moore: @Chris: If the struggle is going to be difficult than its even more important not to give in. If you behave like you have already lost, how does that help the fight..
Cacti
I’m skeptical of Ellison not because there seems to be anything personally wrong with him.
He just seems to have a thin resume for any history of party building activity or national fundraising.
Chris
@schrodinger’s cat:
Yeah, okay. I’m not saying “give up.” I’m saying that counting on Trump’s attention span as a reason for why voter suppression won’t happen or won’t work is nuts.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
Jeremiah Wright was correct.
I’m wanting the new DNC head to smack people around with that.
Mary G
@HRA: This really bothers me from the Wikipedia article:
Republicans will screech about this and it seems to mark a lack of discipline and organization that are needed to run the DNC.
Icedfire
Keith Ellison is my representative. MN-5 is basically Minneapolis and several of the first ring suburbs; it is safely blue, and more than that it is safely progressive. His replacement in the special election would not be a Republican – even in the Year of the Shitgibbon, I am perfectly comfortable making that prediction.
I’m curious about why rikyrah and others are adamantly opposed to him. Could you please expound on your reasons? I’m generally quite a bit farther left than the Progressive Caucus, and I have few complaints about Keith.
Building bridges is a very good way to describe his approach to governance, by the way. After Jamar Clark was shot and the 4th Precinct was occupied, Keith Ellison was one of the most instrumental voices that ultimately led to defusing the situation. He returned to Minneapolis to lend his voice in person, both because and in spite of the fact that his own son was photographed in the protests with a police rifle pointed at his face.
You simply cannot argue that he doesn’t viscerally get it. There are other arguments you can make in favor of Ilyse, but his being disconnected from the issues facing disadvantaged Americans is not one of them.
geg6
@HRA:
I can read that all day. And it still doesn’t tell me anything I didn’t already know or suspect about him. But I still don’t know if he can do the fundraising or what he’s done to build the party. He’s been successful as a politician and good for him. I still have no idea if he’d do well as a party chair. I suspect, based on that Wiki entry and what I already knew about him, that he doesn’t know much about the two things I think are most important.
germy
@Keith P.:
Come Together
Roger Moore
@Chris:
Seconded. I’d also like to add that this is true of any of the awful policies we’re likely to see Trump et. al. proposing. Once he gets the Klown Kar Kabinet installed, we’ll be dealing with a lot more than Trump, so we can’t count on his personal failings to bail us out. The next few years are going to be a bloody read guard action.
Major Major Major Major
@Roger Moore: yep. All he has to do is wave his hands and say make it so. If you look at his history he has consistent positions about, say, black people, or china. His policies are real. They will try to enact them.
geg6
@Icedfire:
I don’t think that is what the criticism is about. He does have some baggage, apparently and even though some of it seems a bit contrived. I’m sure he’s a great representative and someone who can obviously build bridges within his community. But that’s not what the head of the DNC needs to do. We need someone who has a deep knowledge of the states and their parties, who is an organizational master, who knows how to recruit and support candidates at every level and who can “make it rain” with the donors. What is his experience with these things?
germy
@Mary G: I checked the wikipedia page and those stories came from the Star Tribune and a sports website. I’m not saying they’re not true, but I’ll need to do more research before I believe only those sources.
germy
The Smearing Of Keith Ellison
Roger Moore
@Major Major Major Major:
For a lot of this stuff, he doesn’t even have to do that. As Senator Warren said, and Kay has repeated endlessly here, personnel is policy. His appointees are who they are, and they’re going to do what they want to do without needing any prompting. The only thing that can stop them or slow them down is us.
Chris
@Roger Moore:
We can hope that his personal failings will get him into fights with other prominent Republicans that’ll spiral out of control and take up a lot of their energy. That’s not something I’d count on, though, or more precisely it’s not something I’d count on to save us.
Major Major Major Major
@Roger Moore: that too. I meant in terms of taking him at his word about what he’s already said he wants to do. It doesn’t matter if he gets distracted by a Beyoncé music video or whatever when he has people to carry things out.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
This is what I’m thinking. We don’t need another TV surrogate. Can he make the DNC effective at getting more and not-too-bad Democrats elected? I don’t see any way to tell about him or anyone else until he gets the job and gets to work. I don’t have strong feelings for or against him, and I also don’t have a vote.
I think Biden’s tease about 2020 was more a vow to stay engaged, to keep talking, to shine light on Trump. He can do part time and enjoy his grandchildren the rest of the time. Harry Reid is a great bomb thrower– I mean that sincerely, he knows how to get under the Rs’ collective skin and doesn’t give a fuck if Cokie Roeberts approves or not. People (people like…um… Cokie Roberts) talk about his NV machine, so maybe he does have some organizational chops that he could teach other state and local leaders.
Icedfire
@geg6: He’s probably herded a few cats with the Progressive Caucus, but nothing to that level. I don’t expect that he would have anything like what you describe you’d be looking for.
I wonder, though…I don’t deny the importance of success in what you listed, but I would be concerned that a candidate having those particular characteristics would definitionally need to be fully enmeshed as an “insider.” Fair or not, in the Year of the Shitgibbon that term is anathema.
Additionally, I don’t think anyone currently in the running would have that kind of state-level knowledge of the parties or for candidate recruitment, whether Keith, Ilyse, or someone else. I could see an argument that Ilyse has more organizational experience with NARAL and Greenpeace, though.
Did you state somewhere who you’d prefer at the DNC, and I overlooked it? From what I can tell, neither of these candidates would truly offer what you hope for.
trollhattan
@Mary G:
Do Republicans pay any attention to who’s leading the DNC? I can’t recall them saying anything about DWS, negative or otherwise.
Thoroughly Pizzled
I want whoever wins to treat cybersecurity with the utmost seriousness. We’re not going to let the Russians leak any more emails without some resistance.
Roger Moore
@Chris:
That’s actually a reasonable point. I expect Trump will try to set his cabinet members against each other so they won’t gang up against him. It’s a classic authoritarian MO. That said, that strategy is mostly intended to keep them from forming alliances that he perceives as threatening him; he won’t mind if they are efficient in running their own departments. And, in the specific case of voter suppression, most of the real work will be done at the state level, and the primary job of the Feds will be to turn a blind eye to it.
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
This will fix everything.
tobie
Virulently anti-EPA figure Scott Pruitt (currently Oklahoma Attorney General) chosen to head EPA. God damn, the only condition for heading an agency in the Trump White House is to be committed to that agency’s demise.
Adam L Silverman
@germy: That, and the Michelle Goldberg piece Lemieux links to and excerpts from are excellent. Goldberg’s explanation of how the Palestinians are treated in Hebron is spot on. And it is, unfortunately, not only in Hebron. I worked on the DOD side of the 2014 push for an Israeli-Palestinian Peace Agreement and all I can say is that it would be a very beneficial thing if the American people were actually shown how the Palestinians are treated.
Roger Moore
@Major Major Major Major:
I agree with the sentiment but disagree with the wording. We shouldn’t take him at his word on much of anything, at least that he said during the campaign, because he’s a pathological liar and con man. Instead, we have to look at his speech and actions over the long term to see who he really is. So I don’t put much faith in any of his economic promises about MAGA, but I do believe that he’s a hard core bigot who will do everything he can to implement bigoted policies.
Doug R
Remember that offer to who was it Kaisich?
This is going to be the Pence/Trump administration, with the worst aspects of both.
Ellison does seem to have a level head, and the fact he’s a Scary Mooslim I think is going to be a plus.
And getting 67% of the vote seems to indicate good organizing skills.
Major Major Major Major
@Roger Moore: cabinet level stuff is all walled gardens right? They can’t really interfere with the actual workings of each others’ departments?
ETA: @Roger Moore: he’s been talking about NATO and china and black people since at least the 80s. For example.
Miss Bianca
@tobie: yeah, but remember how Jill Stein said a Clinton presidency would be *so much worse* than a Trump presidency? I mean, *she* would have appointed some kind of goddamn neo-liberal to head the EPA. Or would it be a neo-con? Something just as bad, anyway.
RaflW
I live in his district, I think he’s a good choice for several reasons:
1. He understands statewide electoral politics. He started a project a few years ago to run up his vote tally in his incredibly safe district, because he could see that we often have gubernatorial races that are close, and we had that mullet-head twerp Pawlenty (R – vinyl siding suburb) for two damn cycles. Running up Ellison’s numbers was considered a strange thing early on, why fundraise and spend on that when the money could go to other races? But I think he’s right on this as an adds-value tactic to win and keep governors in swing states with safe Dem urban seats that don’t whip up statewide winning margins.
2. He’d complement, and I think not overshadow, Elizabeth Warren as standard bearers for the (needs to be) ascendant liberal wing of the party.
3. The ADL was not against him until they unearthed an old audio clip. Like many politicians, Ellison has said things in the past that a) they wouldn’t say or believe now, because times and circumstances and people change and b) what ADL reacted to was of course only part of the audio. Here’s Ellison’s response.
4. Keith is from a safe seat and we’d have a good shot of elevating Scott Dibble to be the Rep for the by-election. I’ve known Scott about as long as I’ve known Keith, 10 plus years. The former I know better, he came to my partner’s ordination (at a UU congregation in his district) for one thing, something a state Rep has time to do but also because ordaining gay ministers is still a bigish deal.
Both are decent and solidly liberal and effective politicians.
I’d like to see the DNC get this sorted soon and do some good work!
trollhattan
@tobie:
With Education and now Environment headed by people dedicated to killing them and HUD headed by somebody who will sleep while it starves to death, Rick Perry’s miscounted trifecta is now in play. Hot damn and yeehaw.
Major Major Major Major
@Miss Bianca: god, can we just leave the Jill Stein bashing out of oh god I can’t even say it with a straight face. Fuck her. Not because she threw the election (death by a thousand cuts means there were 999 others) but omg fuck Jill Stein.
Icedfire
@RaflW: I’m starting to wonder if a MN-5 get together should be in the cards!
Note: Betty McCollum districtees would be totes cool too :-)
Betty Cracker
@germy: I agree with much of what he says. On the other hand, I can understand why the ADL would be put off by comments that can be interpreted as implying that Jews control US foreign policy. I believe Ellison when he says that’s not what he meant — I’m just pointing out that it’s not crazy or a necessarily a coordinated smear against Ellison to raise that issue.
Ditto his past defense of anti-Semites and homophobes in the Nation of Islam. Ellison says himself that was a mistake. I give him the benefit of the doubt because he’s been a good congressman, and I don’t believe he’s an anti-Semite or homophobe. But you needn’t be a wingnut crank to be troubled by a past association with someone like Farrakhan.
geg6
@Icedfire:
If we actually want an outsider, how about looking for an actual outsider? Someone who is not necessarily a party pol or even regular. But someone who knows something about how the states are organized and has had to raise money and has had to work with different groups outside of party politics? I don’t know of a particular person, but I’m thinking that there are plenty of people with our values who work in NGOs or unions or the ACLU or Planned Parenthood. A fresh way of looking at things but with the hard-nosed organizing, negotiation, and fund raising skills at a national level.
geg6
@Doug R:
Well, it speaks to the organizing skills of someone in his organization, but not necessarily his own.
Timurid
So they’ve just arrested two suspects for arson in the Gatlinburg fire… and I can’t help but think ‘please let them be white, please let them be white, please let them be white…’
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: The ADL is 180 degrees off on this one.
Adam L Silverman
@geg6: Reverend Dr. Barber – flat stop! Do not pass go! Do not take $200 out of the collection plate!
He should be put in charge. His track record in NC over the past 4 years is very, very impressive.
Major Major Major Major
@geg6: well, the other serious candidate is the president of NARAL. https://extranewsfeed.com/moving-forward-ideas-for-the-dnc-d0cbf490a9fb#.xgtfp0c4h
geg6
@Adam L Silverman:
I think that’s a great idea. Perfect, in fact.
Chris
@Roger Moore:
I was thinking more in even simpler terms of him having personality conflicts with other leading Republicans like Paul Ryan, or primary opponents, or whatever, when he imagines a slight against him. Ryan and the others will probably put in tons of effort to massage his ego. But… look at what just happened with Boeing, and tell me you can’t see this happening Paul Ryan says something Trump takes umbrage to. Trump flies off the handle, tweet-trashes Ryan, and says fuck you, if that’s how it’s going to be, I’m going to veto your latest bill because who are we kidding, it’s granny-starving bullshit. Etc.
You’re right that the cabinet thing is definitely going to happen, as well, though.
RaflW
@Icedfire: Maybe even folks in Nolan’s 8th (it extends down to the NE exuburbs now).
geg6
@Major Major Major Major:
Yes, and I think she’s great.
Personally, I’m sour on the idea of any politician being in the post. I find them all tainted at this point. I’m not even happy with Obama. I’m more than a little pissed at him for being just too kind to and about that man. I know he thinks he shouldn’t say much while still in office. However, I believe the exact opposite. It is his responsibility to point out to the American people exactly what they have done and create an atmosphere of a national emergency. Because that is what this is.
Adam L Silverman
@geg6: Of course no one asked me. Nor does anyone who counts on this care what I think. But simply in terms of strategically thinking about how to proceed, every state party should be sending at least two staffers to Reverend Dr. Barber with instructions to soak up everything they can, then bring it home and teach it to at least two staffers at every county party. And then execute based on what they’ve learned. Right now the Democratic Party has one competent field commander: Reverend Dr. Barber. That tell us something about the overall state of the party, but it also tells us something about who to look to for leadership.
hovercraft
@Thoroughly Pizzled:
I want whoever wins to treat cybersecurity with the utmost seriousness. We’re not going to let the Russians leak any more emails without some resistance.
You are concerned about an imaginary problem. It was a 400 pound guy in his basement who hacked the DNC and Podesta.
Icedfire
@geg6: It sounds like you’re describing someone like Cecile Richards, who if nothing else would have the added benefit of having thousands of heads explode the moment she took charge.
I personally am not agitating for a complete outsider to burn it to the ground and start over. Like I said, I’m pretty damn far to the left, but I want to see the Democratic Party keep moving towards me. Unlike too many fellow leftists I know, I see the value of the party structure and what it’s been able to achieve so far. I disagree with methods at times and economics nearly always, but I believe in a thing called pragmatism :-)
I’m not absolutely married to the idea of Keith as Chair, for what it’s worth. I believe he would do a good job, but my support is position/idea/aspiration based far more than detail/experience/organizational. I doubt I could construct an argument that would lead you to support him – on a small scale (i.e. Minneapolis/MN-5) his organizational skills seem canny and effective, but I can’t in good faith argue that that proves he’d be so on a national scale.
Adam L Silverman
@Chris: Speaker Ryan has done what anyone who’s observed his career should have expected. He’s gone into full sniveling toady mode:
https://twitter.com/blakehounshell/status/806522716979396609
Full story:
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/paul-ryan-trump-conflicts-232285
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@geg6:
I’ve been wishing Richard Trumka would take a higher profile for Dems. The guy is everything Dems need.
Major Major Major Major
@hovercraft:
I thought it was Barron. He’s good with the cyber.
Botsplainer
@Adam L Silverman:
He is such a groveling douche. Grover Dill, as a real life person.
Miss Bianca
@Major Major Major Major: 50,000 fucking votes in Michigan. She and Bernie Sanders on and on and fucking ON with “Oh, the Democrats are so corrupt!” It’s as if the year 2000 and all that came after never happened. I’ll stop bashing Jill Stein when she’s good and dead.
@Adam L Silverman: I’m with you on this one. I’ve become a huge, huge fan of Dr. Barber’s.
Icedfire
@Icedfire:
@Adam L Silverman:
I would support Rev. Barber with no reservations in a heartbeat.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Adam L Silverman: even with my long-standing contempt for our political media, it surprises me that Ryan has been as successful as he has with his second constituency of the Beltway Green Rooms. Someone posted something here about a Tweety show a few months back (I think the coming of hair furor has finally cured me of the attraction half of my fascination with Tweey and his show) where all the panelists agreed that, say what you want about Sweet Paulie Blue Eyes, he very sincere. Yes, he sincerely wants to undo the New Deal. I have something like hope that he may be dumb and arrogant enough, post-Trump, to be sincere about that with the American people.
Keith Olbermann used to use a gif of Rush Limbaugh bouncing up and down behind a podium, chins a’jiggling, whenever he discussed that one. Rumor was it drove Limbaugh nuts. Anyway– Hayes and Maddow ought to use those douchey, middle-aged-frat-bro pictures of Ryan every time they talk about him. Wouldn’t do any good, but it would make me chuckle. SO they should do it.
RaflW
@Adam L Silverman: I attended a Moral Monday revival in Minneapolis on Oct 10 that Barber spoke at. He is a indeed a visionary leader and probably is the reason NC will have a decent governor in 2017.
But unless he steps up and says he really wants the DNC role, I hope he’ll stick with Moral Mondays and propel it to be the multi-state effort that is now in development. We need multiple, effective leaders and orgs operating both inside and adjacent (as well as medium- and far- outside) our political parties!
eta: I donated $100 to Moral Mondays/NAACPNC year end campaign a couple days ago, I’d urge others to join me!
henqiguai
@Adam L Silverman(#58):
Why? They didn’t/don’t really care how Black, gay, female Americans, for the most part, are treated. What’s different?
Betty Cracker
@hovercraft: “For reasons that remain unclear”? LOL! Who knew they were such jokers at Time!
Major Major Major Major
@Miss Bianca: Stein voters probably wouldn’t have voted for Hillary anyway. Write-in Bernie or not vote. I know their kind.
ETA: @henqiguai: so, what, we should… try not to show them?
SFAW
@schrodinger’s cat:
Not sure what you were responding to, but the text you blockquoted is not “preemptive defeatism.”
rikyrah
@MaxUtil:
I am not interested in anyone who remotely would seem conciliatory. I want a bomb thrower. We are the resistance. There is not one issue where the Democrats need to be seen as compromising with those sociopaths. NOT ONE.
I need someone who can be as angry and as pissed off as we need to be.
Steve in the ATL
@Keith P.:
Based on his location and my personal preferences, I’m assuming it’s “Alex Chilton” by the Replacements.
hovercraft
@Adam L Silverman:
Once again you people are so far behind, he doesn’t have any conflict of interests, he sold his entire portfolio back in June, so no worries everyone relax.
laura
@rikyrah: Tom Perez?
schrodinger's cat
@SFAW: The premise of the quote was that, it is highly likely that Trump is going to get everything he wants. Just in case he doesn’t then..
If that’s not defeatism what is.
Adam L Silverman
@henqiguai: They can no longer say they didn’t know. If you choose to support discrimination and oppression after you’ve been fully informed of the details, that’s a whole different level of moral culpability than if you’re doing it because you’re ignorant/uninformed of the actuality and reality.
SFAW
@Miss Bianca:
I’m with you, kid. She’s a fucking moron, even more so because of the eight-year aftermath of 2000. If there had been no Nader effect from then, I’d cut her a tiny amount of slack. But because we already had a glaring example of a clueless moron running a vanity campaign, and the US subsequently suffering for it, she gets none.
At least Bill Weld said something when it might have helped.
Anonymous At Work
@Roger Moore: ADL is now dedicated to defending Israel, uber alles, rather than defending against anti-Semitism.
Iowa Old Lady
@hovercraft: Trump lies like he breathes.
schrodinger's cat
@Miss Bianca: Jill Stein voters, Bernie dead enders and people who think NYT is noble, must be the most clueless blithering idiots alive.
schrodinger's cat
@Adam L Silverman: Is stuck in moderation, please to rescue, Kthx.
Major Major Major Major
@SFAW: I agree with this but I still don’t think she cost us the election at all.
Chris
@henqiguai:
The knee-jerk Israel-is-always-right sentiment in the U.S. goes far, far, far beyond the right wing or even the right wing and center. Those are the guys you’re aiming for.
I’ve met several people who after actually going through the West Bank and seeing what the living conditions are like what how Israel relates to them, come back utterly horrified and shocked and with their view of things transformed after finally realizing that yes, the pretty shiny image you get in America really is all complete Potemkin Village bullshit. Not most right wingers, obviously. They’ll rationalize the sufferings of the unpersons as all their fault and/or God’s judgment or tough love or something that Must Be Done like they do everything else. But you would, at the very least, put some real dents into the status of Israel-as-infallible.
Roger Moore
@Chris:
Yeah, I can definitely see conflicts between Trump and Congressional leadership the moment they start acting as if they’re actually the leaders of a coequal branch of government. Authoritarians don’t like the idea of there being competing authorities.
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
@Miss Bianca: I said this during the Primaries, Trump wants to burn it all down and Bernie is bringing the gasoline,
schrodinger's cat
deleted
SFAW
@schrodinger’s cat:
What Betty wrote was:
That’s not defeatism.
If TEFA did not have two houses of Congress salivating at the idea of Trump destroying a functioning federal government, then I would semi-agree with the idea that it’s a pessimistic viewpoint. But given what has already happened, and how TEFA has not “pivoted” and likely will not, it’s relatively optimistic.
Or have I been asleep, and all the voter suppression, middle-class destruction, Medicare/Medicaid/Obamacare destroying has merely been a nightmare I was having, and things are looking up, because the high-information voters made it clear that they don’t want a country run by treasonous, un-American bastards like the Rethuglicans?
schrodinger's cat
@Tilda Swinton’s Bald Cap: Bernie’s entire campaign that ran long past it was viable was an exercise in vanity and stupidity.
In a way each candidate was a reflection of their supporters
HRC: Diligent but boring
Sanders: Vain and convinced of their own righteousness
T: Mean, arrogant and entitled.
D58826
So the new EPA administrator thinks lead and mercury in water are just the thing to promote good health. And Linda McMahon, of prof. wrestling fame, to the Small Business Admin.
The next 4 years will truly be a reality show. A shame so many people will get hurt in the process
schrodinger's cat
@SFAW: She is presuming a high likelihood of success. Their success == our failure. It is a zero sum game.
Roger Moore
@schrodinger’s cat:
How about people who believe Trump will MAGA?
RaflW
@Chris: I wouldn’t be surprised to find out down the road that Bannon is gleefully leading Ryan to think there is support for his Randian plans for Medicare. It’ll engage the Dems in a massive fight, which will take resources away from tracking and exposing the kleptocracy under everyone’s noses. It’ll consume our 20th century moribund DC press. And it will be colossally unpopular with voters. Trump has said he doesn’t want to ruin the parts of the social safety net that mostly benefits whites (OK, he hasn’t said it exactly that way, but y’know), so after Ryan has taken various body blows for putting his gubmit’ hands on ppls Medicare, Trump will then start signaling he’d veto and let Congress twist in the windstorm.
Ryan will have his ass handed to him on a platter, and Bannon will have looted everything in sight, while all eyes are on the fight and then the implosion. Epic.
Always remember that Bannon wants to ruin everything. And be rich. And has no loyalty whatsoever to regular GOP pols.
Adam L Silverman
@Anonymous At Work: I think, in this case, the new(ish) director got played by an anti-Islam/Islamophobic third party with their own agenda.
Iowa Old Lady
I’ve been thinking about Trump announcing he sold all his stock in June. Which is probably a lie. But remember that Obama told him what he did to avoid conflict of interest, which is to sell all his stock. It occurs to me that Trump might just pick that up and claim it for himself even if it’s not true. He’s such a sociopath.
Adam L Silverman
@schrodinger’s cat: done
Iowa Old Lady
@schrodinger’s cat: That’s an interesting observation. I like it.
Это курам на смех
@Alex S:
Deniable.
MomSense
@Adam L Silverman:
Yes, Rev. Dr. Barber would be a fantastic choice. I have a bunch of NC friends who have been willing to be arrested on the floor of the state legislature because he moves them so much.
I also think Joe Biden and Harry Reid would be great. The thing is the DNC is mostly a fundraising position but it also requires giving good tv and Barber, Biden and Reid all give great tv.
Ellison is meh IMHO.
geg6
@Icedfire:
It’s funny to me that I feel this way because I am not far left in any way. I am a yellow dog Democrat with typical liberal leanings. I’m not a fan of socialism. I’m not a fan of Bernie at all and would have had the hardest of times voting for him had he won the primary. I think he’s an idiot and bad for the party because he doesn’t care one whit about the party. No one could have been more never Bernie than I. So it’s a little out of my own box for me to say these things. But I’ve been thinking a lot about it and this where I landed. I have little faith in current Dem pols, every single one of them. I have no faith at all in Bernie or any of his minions or fans. And that seems to be where a lot of Dems are right now, so maybe I’m on the right track.
Mary G
@Iowa Old Lady: I think it might be unlikely that he is lying. There is so much potential for leakers at the companies involved to tell on him. Of course, he is dumb enough to think he is immune.
RaflW
Oh, and here’s the play on the ACA and the delayed-repeal cliff: I think it signals what we already expect — The GOP majority in the House will be gutted in the mid-terms. Trump will be kind of popular, but Ryan the sniveling, granny-starving git will be stunningly unpopular with voters.
So the GOP gets to pretend-vote to repeal ACA, and the Dems in year three get to scramble and save it from the cliff. Then in 2020 the GOP gets to run against the damn Dems who re-forced everyone onto more Obamacare!
SFAW
@Major Major Major Major:
She may not have cost the election — I haven’t looked at the numbers, probably won’t — but her going after Hillary as if Hillary were the second coming of Goebbels was destined, if not designed, to give TEFA a boost.
In 2000, Nader had a chance to say, in the last few weeks of the campaign:”Listen, I really appreciate the support everyone has given me. But the future of the country is too important to be left to George Bush and Dick Cheney, so if it’s a close race in your state, I won’t be crushed if you make the pragmatic choice.” [Or something like that. I ain’t a speachriter.] But he didn’t — he actually rationalized, after the election, that Bush would make things so bad, that a new generation of liberalism would follow. I haven’t heard any such rationalization from Stein, thank FSM. But she could have done what Bill Weld did — and she didn’t.
Corner Stone
@Alex S:
May I suggest you find a very short pier and then take a long, leisurely walk?
Betty Cracker
@SFAW: Cat misreads me sometimes. I attribute it to a fundamental inability for cat people and dog people to communicate with one another clearly.
NR
@schrodinger’s cat: They’re not the ones who nominated a candidate who lost to Donald fucking Trump.
You guys are going to be the ones wearing the dunce caps for the forseeable future, I’m afraid.
geg6
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
I’ve seen him in action (we see him a lot around here). He’s the real deal. I could get behind him, too.
However, I agree with Adam about Rev. Barber. He’s the only one out there that’s seems to be effective. Hire him.
schrodinger's cat
@Roger Moore: Most T voters know that’s a cover, they voted for someone who hates the same people they do. If someone really believes that, then yes you can add them to my list.
Chris
@RaflW:
I’d love to believe that there’s any genuine populism in the Trump administration, even if only for whites – not least because it would mean real battles between him and the Randroids that would end up consuming the party in a Bull Mooseish disaster, and give us much more room to maneuver.
I don’t really believe that, though. Trump is an utter phony with no loyalty to himself. His fascists may have actual beliefs. But… like I said a few weeks ago. They’re fascists. Give them a choice between standing with the elites and standing with the low income and working class, they’ll choose the elites every time. It’s what they do.
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: Have you considered getting a hamster or a cockatiel to interpret for you?
Iowa Old Lady
@Mary G: Maybe. But I’m not sure that matters to Trump. As far as I can tell, he’s very in the now.
gogol's wife
@geg6:
My minister said Rev. Barber refuses to align himself with a political party. I don’t know whether that’s accurate or not. But even if not, I doubt he’d want that job.
Corner Stone
@NR: Who should have been the Democratic nominee for President?
Major Major Major Major
@Alex S: @Это курам на смех: If “the Sanders wing” of the party would like to dictate the future of the party perhaps they could convince Sanders to join the party.
schrodinger's cat
@Iowa Old Lady: NR is here to prove my point see # 127.
Corner Stone
@gogol’s wife: Why would he? Very difficult to maintain the “moral” part of his movement if he was DNC chair.
gogol's wife
What is TEFA?
Mary G
@Adam L Silverman: Dr. Barber is a brilliant pick. North Carolina ran against the tide of Trumpism by throwing McCrory out and I am sure Moral Mondays was a big part of that.
Miss Bianca
@SFAW: @SFAW:
I have. Or at least I did before the election. I heard a bit of an interview with her on Democrazy Now! that almost had me driving off the road, where she opined that complete Republican control of the federal government would end up being less destructive for the country than a Clinton presidency. For reasons I can no longer recall because I started screaming at the radio and scared my dogs.
ETA: If she’s had the sense to shut her cake hole now that she’s faced with reality, so much the better.
SFAW
@schrodinger’s cat:
Most of us are presuming a high likelihood of TEFA’s “success” (defined as it getting everything it wants). If you’re not, then you’re seeing something that most of us aren’t.
Betty’s saying “assuming it DOESN’T get everything it wants” — a pessimistic/defeatist comment would assume TEFA is going to get everything it wants and more, so why bother fighting?
geg6
@Это курам на смех:
Yeah, gotta got with you on that one. I ain’t following Bernie into any foxholes. Not that I believe he’d be jumping into any.
Betty Cracker
@NR: Are you willing to acknowledge that perhaps the fact that he couldn’t win the Democratic primary says something about Sanders’ broad appeal to Democrats? Do you consider the majority of Democrats an important constituency in the Democratic Party?
Corner Stone
Could there *be* any more generals nominated to Trump’s Cabinet?
/Ms. Chenandler Bong
SFAW
@Miss Bianca:
Had I heard it, I would have done the same thing — minus the doggies.
NR
@schrodinger’s cat: If only everyone could be as noble and as perfect as you guys, eh?
Corner Stone
@Miss Bianca:
Same sentiment Kropeydopey, et al stated here many times.
Major Major Major Major
@gogol’s wife: Test of English as a Foreign Acronym
geg6
@NR:
Irony. It is truly dead.
Corner Stone
@NR: Maybe we should have nominated the Black Santa from Mall of America.
But guess the fuck what?
SFAW
@gogol’s wife:
That Evil Fucking Asshole.
I used to call it “Ferret-headed Shitgibbon,” but “TEFA” is faster, and still gets the sentiment across.
It’s also because I’m being immature, and refuse to call it by its name. (And thanks to hovercraft for the idea of referring to it as “it.”)
gogol's wife
@SFAW: @Major Major Major Major:
“Test of English as a Foreign Acronym” doesn’t help me decipher SFAW’s comment at all!
gogol's wife
@SFAW:
Oh, okay, thanks.
Betty Cracker
@Corner Stone: Same thing many Naderites said in 2000, and Shrub certainly did heighten the contradictions, but I think the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis would disagree that his presidency was less destructive than Gore’s. If they weren’t dead, I mean.
SFAW
@NR:
FOAD
Another Scott
@Betty Cracker: Biden already has a job that he lobbied hard for – nominally running the Cancer Moonshot.
I don’t know much about Ellison, but him saying he’ll give up his seat and make it a full-time job removes a big concern I had. He’s got lots of powerful supporters who know what they’re doing when it comes to raising money (Sen. Schumer), so it sounds like he’ll be able to do that part of the job (or get help doing it).
He sounds like he understands at least important aspects of national politics these days (saying Trump could win, seeing the need to address things that Bernie was talking about but working hard for Hillary after she won), and being able to win the way he has in the district he has shows that he knows how to win elections, so that’s all an important plus, too.
Really, the DNC chair can’t do that much on his/her own. (We all know what a great/horrible chair Tim Kaine was, right? What?) I hope he’s able to inspire others to do the grunt work in the states and localities that will determine how redistricting goes, and thus the size of the hill we have to climb in the 2020s…
Cheers,
Scott.
Chris
@Это курам на смех:
Yes indeed.
Part of the reason I like Ellison is the possibility of salvaging the whole momentum captured in the Sanders campaign and redirecting it onto shit that’s actually productive (continuing to build on the economic left-wing populism that’s sprung up in the last eight years), as opposed to the personality cult and Democratic-punching machine that the actual Sanders campaign devolved into, and without the whole tone-deafness to nonwhite people that Sanders demonstrated repeatedly and continues to demonstrate to this day.
daverave
Linda McMahon?
Whoops, too late…
bmoak
@Adam L Silverman:
Rev. Dr. Barber is not in the best of health.
NR
@Betty Cracker:
A majority of Democrats didn’t even vote in the primary. There are roughly 70 million Democrats in the US (estimated). About 30 million voted in the primary. Hillary’s 17 million votes puts her at about 25% of Democrats.
But yes, Sanders clearly did not do as good a job of appealing to Democrats as he needed to. Although the fact that Hillary had near-unaminous support from the party establishment played a role in his loss as well.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Roger Moore:
I guess the ShitGibbon has read the 25th Amendment.
Major Major Major Major
@Chris: That would indeed be a good thing, if Keith can/will/wants to do it.
SFAW
@NR:
So, therefore, Bernie had 75 percent, and should have been given the nom, because math is hard.
Or are you trying to make some sort of point?
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Chris:
Is there any evidence that anything positive and progressive was affected by that so called momentum anywhere in the country? Vermont has a Republican governor now. The only thing I see as the result of Bernie’s opportunistic flirtation with the Dems was to give Trump his template on how to attack Hillary, while fetishizing white/male identity politics and also not releasing his tax returns.
Major Major Major Major
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
No.
That, and lots of Bernie signs in SF and Berkeley that are still up.
BillinGlendaleCA
@trollhattan: I thought Goodhair wanted to get rid of Commerce, Education and…
NR
@SFAW: The point is that Hillary did not get the votes of a majority of Democrats in the primary, which should have been obvious from my comment.
Roger Moore
@Mary G:
I have zero trust in anything Trump says. I think he’s just making it up now because he’s being hit on the issue, and he believes he’ll never be contradicted. If he had actually liquidated his stocks back in June, why didn’t he mention it back then, or at any of the other times when conflicts of interest have been discussed? Not that liquidating his stock portfolio would make much difference with conflicts of interest, since those mostly center around his private business.
henqiguai
@MomSense(#120):
Not just to you, Momsense, but I would disagree on Dr. Barber. He’s a down in the dirt hands on activist. He has great organizing skills, but he seems to be at his stride actually doing…
Miss Bianca
@NR:
Gee, that’s funny…you and the other Sandernistas here keep bleating that HRC’s failure to win the national election is entirely the fault of *her* faults as a candidate, and downplaying or dismissing the notion of any kind of institutionalized thumb on the scale (*cough* voter suppression *cough*). So, why wouldn’t Sanders’s failure to connect with the majority of voters in the Democratic primaries be solely a result of *his* faults as a candidate?
ETA: And Sanders got even fewer Democratic primary votes than Clinton did, so…your point?
Kay
I love that picture of him :)
RaflW
@Mary G: I am sure it was, too. But as gogol’s wife notes, he isn’t likely to want to align. And I’d add that part of why Moral Mondays worked in N.C. was specifically because it was unaligned.
If you think Dr. Barber is as good as y’all do (and I agree that he is mapping out a path to power that is strategic and effective), support the roll-out of Moral Mondays across the US, rather than wishing for him to step into the DNC frey. I don’t think he will, so why not support the work he is already doing!
Seriously! We raised shit-tons of $$ thru ActBlue this cycle. Imagine if BJers threw in together and got Moral Mondays $50K closer to their goal.
Betty Cracker
@Chris:
A thousand times this! After being called a neoliberal shill for months now, even I have trouble remembering sometimes that my first reaction to Sanders’ entering the primary was optimism that he’d move the party leftward on economics. Which he did! But then it became a shitshow that was all about Sanders.
Chris
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Anecdotally at least, most of the Democrats I know who went for Sanders were people who’d been fired up by things like the Occupy movement, the Fight for Fifteen, or Elizabeth Warren’s brand of populism. None of these are bad things, or inherently married to white butthurt and Sanders personality cultism. If somebody else can take over the brand and move it the fuck away from the Sanders rut it’s been in for the last year and a half, that’ll be a very good thing done.
(I never voted for Sanders, was already for Clinton in the primary. But most of the Democrats I knew who were behind him weren’t the kind who turned out to be diehard assholes. The polling of the time backed that up – it showed that most supporters of each candidate were fine with the other candidate if theirs lost).
NR
@Miss Bianca: You know, you actually make a good point here. Just as there’s no direct evidence that voter suppression changed the result in any state, there’s no direct evidence that Hillary’s establishment support changed the result in any primary. So I’ll retract my statement that her establishment support helped her win the primary unless and until there’s actual evidence to support that point.
I still think super delegates are anti-democratic and should be done away with, though.
Another Scott
@hovercraft: I chuckled when I saw that. How much stock does/did he hold? It conveniently doesn’t say. “I sold off my Vanguard 500 index fund so I don’t have any conflicts. See?”
I thought billionaire real-estate developers invested in real estate, not stocks. :-/
Seriously, though, Trump’s conflicts of interest obviously aren’t due to his stock holdings, they’re due to all of his real-estate dealings, etc., all over the world with his name in fake gold lettering everywhere. Handing the stuff off to his kids doesn’t change the conflicts, either.
How stupid do they think we are?
:-/
Cheers,
Scott.
SFAW
@NR:
Oh, is that what you call a “point”? I thought it was just spitting up some useless number. Had Hillary received 45 million votes during the Dem primaries, you would have found some other bullshit number to make some bullshit “point.”
Or would you prefer that the Federal Election Commission (or Jefferson Beauregard Klansman III) conduct sweeps to ensure that every fucking (party-registered) voter exercises their franchise during the primary, because otherwise the vote totals mean nothing?
Do you actually spend “brain” cycles trying to come up with moronic bullshit like this?
Chris
@Betty Cracker:
Part of the point is that Sanders’ support didn’t come out of nowhere, and that the party had been “moving leftward” on economics for years already. All things being equal, a voice in the primary strongly advocating for more of that trend would be a good thing, whether or not that voice actually won. The problem was that Sanders was utterly unfit to be that voice, and the fact that by the end he’d completely pissed away his time in the sun on his own vanity project remains one of the most unforgivable things about his campaign.
RaflW
@SFAW: Obama didn’t get a majority of all (purported) 70 million Democrats in either 2008 or 2012 primaries either. It’s a spurious metric.
NR
@SFAW: I’m not sure what you’re raging about. Someone brought up the support of a majority of Democrats in the primary, and I replies by noting the fact that no candidate won the support of a majority of Democrats in the primary. My comment was a direct response to the one I replied to. Pretty simple, really.
Another Scott
@SFAW: Of more immediate interest, at least to Al Gore, are Nader’s respectable poll numbers: 7 to 10 percent in California as of June, 6 percent nationally. If California tips Green enough, Bush could win the state and the whole damn election.
Which, Nader confided to Outside in June, wouldn’t be so bad. When asked if someone put a gun to his head and told him to vote for either Gore or Bush, which he would choose, Nader answered without hesitation: “Bush.” Not that he actually thinks the man he calls “Bush Inc.” deserves to be elected: “He’ll do whatever industry wants done.” The rumpled crusader clearly prefers to sink his righteous teeth into Al Gore, however: “He’s totally betrayed his 1992 book,” Nader says. “It’s all rhetoric.” Gore “groveled openly” to automakers, charges Nader, who concludes with the sotto voce realpolitik of a ward heeler: “If you want the parties to diverge from one another, have Bush win.”
Nader was always more interested in having W win than pushing actual real-life progress.
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
Betty Cracker
@Chris: I agree 100%. And my experience with actual Sanders primary voters (who include my husband) mirrors yours — they weren’t the die-hard assholes who infest online comments sections. They voted for Clinton and are horrified by Trump. Unlike Sanders, they are actually Democrats and an important constituency in the party, IMO.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
the hills and the hollers of the Bay Area, as I understand it
JPL
@Another Scott: Yup.. That didn’t work out did it.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Chris:
I guess I find it exceedingly ironic that the Sanders people want all the old Dems to get out of the way, seeing how’s Sanders is such a fresh face on Capitol Hill and a real spring chicken/
NR
@Betty Cracker: So are you willing to entertain the possibility that comments like these, which cast all Sanders supporters as horrible people (to say nothing of all Trump supporters) hurt the party rather than help it?
Another Scott
@JPL: I guess if Nader’s ultimate goal was putting Detroit out of business, then I guess he came really, really close to getting his wish!!
:-/
Cheers,
Scott.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Another Scott:
Nach Bush uns!
BillinGlendaleCA
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: He’s a young 75.
Chris
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
When I say “momentum,” I don’t mean “take over the entire party.” I mean, yes, do that if you can get enough voters to back you – knock yourself out. I just think the rise/return of the economic left in the Obama years has been a good thing on balance, or was until the primary and what came after. I’d like to get it back on some sort of worthwhile track.
bmoak
The thing is, a lot of people really overestimate the organizational scope and influence of the DNC. It doesn’t control all Democrats nationwide or craft policy (except for the party platform at the convention). Nor does it have a huge unlimited warchest. The DSCC, DRCC, and state parties (all state party chairs and vice-chairs are part of the DNC) are actually responsible for a lot of matters that the DNC ends up taking flack for. Outside of Presidential election years, they don’t have a whole lot on their plate, and until the party selects a a Presidential candidate, they have to sit on the sidelines.
What the DNC actually does is:
1) Fundraise: However, a lot of fundraising they do is from the dreaded evil big money and/or organizational donors, since it’s a lot sexier for most people to give money directly to candidates than to boring old party infrastructure.
2) Organize the Democratic Convention and events leading up to it. The DNC doesn’t want to do unlimited debates not because they are trying to rig the process, but because they pay for those debates and it’s a drain on their funds.
3) Put together the party platform.
You could argue that the DNC should have an expanded scope, but historically, it’s never been a powerful institution.
geg6
@NR:
Nope. Because that comment, based on my own personal interactions with
youthem, strikes me as true. And the idea that I should worry about insulting the fee fees of a Trumpster is absolutely hilarious.the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Chris:
I agree except no one has been able to describe what that looks like when we’ve just lost a referendum on white supremacy.
SFAW
@NR:
Raging? Oh, dearie dearie me.
Your point was bullshit. Whether it was 10 million who voted in the Dem primary, or 70 million, or some number in between, Hillary won about 55 percent of the votes cast, and about 60 percent of the states that held primaries.
And parsing Betty’s “majority of Democrats” line as meaning anything other than “majority of Democrats who voted,” or pretending that it’s unreasonable to extrapolate those results to the Party in general, is a bullshit tactic.
But you knew that.
SFAW
@Another Scott:
I hadn’t seen/heard that comment of Nader’s (thank FSM), or I had (thankfully) forgotten it. Although it’s not that different, philosophically, from his generation of liberalism thing.
Thanks, I think, for the quotes and link.
SFAW
@bmoak:
4) Implement a 50-State strategy.
Granted, that concept has been missing for the last eight years, but it’s still a worthwhile one.
SWMBO
@geg6: Would HRC take the DNC chair? She could resign after the 2018 mid terms but she does know the states, she is a rainmaker and she’s not in office at the moment.
Betty Cracker
@NR: Nope. My guess is a vanishingly small number of people give a rat’s ass what commenters on a blog say about Sanders supporters — even an almost top 10K blog.
Mnemosyne
@Chris:
This. I have no problem with Sanders’ message. I have a whole lot of problems with him as the messenger, and with his cultists’ insistence that Bernie is the One and Only True Messenger, No Substitutions.
Chris
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Welp, if you want to keep economic leftism alive and relevant in the age of white supremacy, a pretty good place to start is to not deny that it’s white supremacy, not give cover to white supremacists by running with the “economic anxiety” canard, and not try to claim that the Democrats need to give up “identity politics.”
All of which Keith Ellison seems infinitely more suited to that Bernie Sanders.
Captain C
@geg6: No, but I bet he’d have a lot of criticism from his home for those who did.
Miss Bianca
@Keith P.:
So, you’d feel one way about if it’s “Kumbaya” and another way about it if it’s “Purple Haze”?
bmoak
@SFAW:
All the 50 state strategy meant was that Dean spread the kitty around to all 50 state parties.
max
I like Ellison, but I would. I voted for Sanders in the primary (because I’ve liked since way back when he supported gay rights in the 80’s among other things) and then I voted for Clinton in the general, of course.
But crucially, IMO, Ellison doesn’t buy the theory that the Democrats need throw nonwhites, women, religious minorities and LGBT folks under the bus and shift focus to the white working class to win.
For the record, I’ve never said or thought a whole bunch of Republicans and/or Trump voters are not motivated by racism. They should probably just start saying the R in ‘R Party’ stands for racism, so we can all be real clear on that. But white working class voters are the the largest group in the country, and as a consequence, they are still a very large faction in the D party. Having your Ivy League-educated upper class pundits talking shit in an endless stream of hot takes about your own voters is probably not a good idea, particularly when your own voters (not R party working class white voters, but D party WWC voters) are telling you they are unhappy with the economic situation.
This is like basic politics here. That said, Clinton got an enormous number of WWC voters, female and male, and she wouldn’t have gotten to 48% if she hadn’t. She just didn’t get quite enough to get to 50.1%, unfortunately.
max
[‘But she got enough to win the popular vote, so that’s something.’]
Mnemosyne
@max:
Here’s the problem, though: pundits and voters seem to be using two different definitions of “white working class.” White voters making less than $50K a year voted for Hillary. Many white voters called Trump the working class billionaire, which ought to be an oxymoron by definition, but wasn’t.
In this election, “white working class” was an identity group, not an economic one. And, sadly, a huge part of their identity is wanting to keep other identity groups subordinate to themselves.
debbie
@rikyrah:
I agree with you. While I’m fine with Ellison, we’d be handing a gift to the GOP. They’d harp endlessly about his being a Muslim. Dems, please don’t do this.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: Exactly.
@debbie: So we’re going to give those bigoted knobs veto power over our party leadership? No thanks.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Mnemosyne:
They hate income inequality, only as it pertains to the immigrants who own the local bodega, the coffee shop, the Motel 6 and the gas stations who rub their faces in their white mediocrity for not owning/cheating them out of those things, and see how “unfair” things are, so they voted for the “self made” “blue collar” billyunaire who hate the same people they do.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@debbie:
Fuck what every Republican thinks – if it’s a Democrat, they hate them, no matter who or what group they belong to. They’re haters.
debbie
@Betty Cracker:
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Then I hope you both have your asbestos big girl britches ready.
Miss Bianca
@Betty Cracker: @the Conster, la Citoyenne: yeah, I’m actually not that crazy about the notion of Ellison as DNC chair, mostly because I hate to see a sitting member of Congress who is, presumably, effective, give up that position for this one. But totally…fuck that fear noise. Haters gonna hate no matter what.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@debbie:
I understand your point, but the only answer is for Democrats to only have white men be the beard for Democratic policy messaging, organizers, and national and state politicians in a rapidly changing country.
NR
@geg6: Then you’re an idiot.
People vote based on emotion. And hateful rhetoric directed at them makes them less likely to vote for you.
NR
@SFAW: Okay. So we’re not going to hear anything around here about the fact that less than 25% of eligilbe Americans voted for Trump, then?
NR
@Betty Cracker: What gets said on this blog filters into, and reflects, the general attitude of Democrats, even if only in a small way.
It’s bad enough that people here have decided that every single Trump voter is evil, irredeemable, and “deplorable” (when even Hillary Clinton only said that about half of them), but even that’s not enough for them. No, they have to attack Sanders voters too (even though the vast majority of them voted for Hillary in November).
Looking down your nose at people and sneering at them with contempt and condescension isn’t the way to win them over to your side. Keep this up, and your coalition will shrink to the point that you’ll never be able to win another election ever again. But hey, at least it will be pure and won’t have any of those icky bad people in it.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@NR:
who will think of the racist ignorant reality denying emotional fucktards???
evodevo
@Britlaw: Yes. This is my first question. Is his seat safe? If not, get someone else….
SFAW
@bmoak:
Yeah, not quite. That seems to be a popular meme in some quarters, however.
SFAW
@NR:
I am amazed at your seemingly inexhaustible self-generated supply of stupid. If there were some technology available to convert stupid into an energy source/supply, we’d never have to worry about oil shortages, coal miner deaths, or AGW again, and the world would beat a path to your door.
Of course, once they talked to you, they’d just beat you. But it’s a start, nicht wahr?
SFAW
@NR:
Fuck off. There’s no subject where you can’t find a way to demonstrate what a fucking moron you are.
But thanks for the “deep” psychoanalysis, because if you didn’t have projection to keep yourself warm, where would you be?
NR
@SFAW: Your violent fantasies are fucking creepy. Please seek professional help as soon as possible.
NR
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: You just proved my point perfectly. Thank you.
Sly
@Britlaw:
Minnesota’s 5th Congressional District (Minneapolis) has a CPVI of D+22. That means that, all things being equal, the Democratic candidate is projected to carry the district by 22%. That’s about as safely Democratic as the seats currently occupied by Jim Clyburn, Jerrold Nadler, and Sheila Jackson Lee.
In other words, its really safe.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@NR:
Fuck you very much.
Schlemazel
He is my Congressman and great at his job. I seriously have no idea why he would leave that job for the DNC but he is smart and dedicated & great at getting folks to work together. I just would hate to lose him as my rep.
The bullshit smeared on him by the Islamophobic bigots means they must not want him so I will sacrifice him for that alone.
SFAW
@NR:
Did I scare you? Boogity-boogity-boo!
Please spare your bullshit “violent fantasies” crap. You keep saying that anytime someone says anything other than “Ooooh, NR! You are so awesome, I may expire from your awesomeness!”
If you had anything more than rudimentary reading skills, you would have noted the parallel structure, but you clearly do not, so you didn’t. I can probably spare 30 or 40 IQ points for you to borrow, if you want.
But you jes’ keep on with that projecting, moron.
SFAW
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Careful! You might scare him with your “violent fantasies.”
SFAW
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
If I do, can I make shitloads of cash off of it?
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@SFAW:
NR is your progressive better. Bow down to his superiority, as he knows how the white working class is just waiting for the brocialist message of St. Bernard, you corrupt pawn of the false consciousness of the Democratic establishment who failed those white rural working stiffs who only want everyone to succeed equally in a world free of neoliberalism and elitism, where “elitism” is a code word for people who know more than you do, and “neoliberalism” is a code word for “everything I don’t like about Democrats who aren’t Bernie Sanders”.
NR
@SFAW:
You don’t scare me. But it’s funny that you think you did. Talk about an inflated sense of your own self-worth.
No, I say it when people post their violent fantasies for everyone to see. Like you did.
And like I said, it’s fucking creepy. Get help. You need it.
NR
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: That’s pretty funny considering that of the two of us, you look down on way more people than I do, as your comments demonstrate.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@NR:
LOL. It is funny, but not in the way you will ever understand, because I look down on your cluelessness, which is next level cluelessness.
SFAW
@NR:
Hey, you’re the one who turned some literary-parallel-structure throwaway lines into “violent fantasies.” And yet you keep focusing on it. Hmmm.
Sounds like you have a bit of projection going on. What town do you live in? I want to be able to alert the locals that you’re having a break with reality, and based on your omnipresent projection, you apparently intend to harm others.
I’ll make sure I lock my windows and doors, because you might even live near me, and be tempted to carry out your sick fetishes.
ETA: OK, now it’s time for you to riposte with some variation of “I know you are, but what am I?” And I hope you’re not scared by the use of the word “riposte,” what with it’s association with fencing, but my humblest apologies if it made you cry.
NR
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: What’s funny is you calling me clueless while being utterly blind to the irony of denouncing someone for acting superior when you act far more smugly superior than I do.
Tell me again how much better you are than those evil Trump and Bernie voters. That ought to be good for a laugh. What’s it like to live in a country with so many people who are so incredibly inferior to you?
NR
@SFAW:
Of the two of us, you’re the only one who’s posted violent fantasies here, bud. Protecting them onto me won’t change that.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@NR:
So, you progressive better to me, who of the Democratic coalition gets thrown under the white populist Bernie bus? Show your work.
NR
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: No one.
SATSQ.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@NR:
Well, then, why are you arguing with those of us who say that’s not possible given that we just lost a referendum on white male supremacy, which you insist is mischaracterizing the results of this election given that it wasn’t a referendum on income inequality but on white cultural resentment which Bernie acknowledged, and which you refuse to acknowledge? You’re so fucking clueless.
NR
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: First, it’s curious that a majority of white women would vote for a referendum on white male supremacy.
Second, I’ll let Van Jones answer your point:
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@NR:
white before black, men before women. White women voted their race first, and let’s not forget voter suppression and all of the news media with their thumbs on the scale to poison the well. To disregard the white entitlement that underlays everything else is to be exceptionally clueless. White people are the problem, not the Democratic message of income equality for all.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@NR:
Plus, I don’t think Van Jones knows what he’s talking about anymore than Bernie or you do. There’s a strain of anti-intellectual authoritarianism that manifested this cycle, as a reaction to the changing country. Mean and dumb prevailed just enough to tip the EC. Emotional reaction to the world around them, and they responded to the overt white supremacist message just enough to make the difference.
SFAW
@NR:
Unfortunately for you, you’re the only one who reads it that way. But it’s your “go-to”/fallback response whenever someone points out how clueless you are. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve seen that nutbaggery out of your “mouth.” Now, there’s an old saying “You go with what works,” but it’s really not working for you. It just highlights that you’re either seriously delusional, or just stupid. Actually, I’m guessing it’s both.
But thanks for you putting your deeply disturbed psyche on display for all of us to see. Well, actually, not “thanks” — I think I meant “too bad.”
NR
@SFAW:
Bullshit. Now you’re lying because you’re upset you got called out for posting your creepy and violent fantasies. You’re honestly pathetic in addition to being a disturbed individual.
Like I said: Seek help.
NR
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Again, you should read the whole interview. He addresses this point too:
NR
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Oh, and by the way, this:
All I can say is good luck with that message in a country that’s majority white.
SFAW
@NR:
No matter how many times you say it about others, YOU are the only one with the fantasies about violence, which you keep projecting onto others. Your lack of basic reading skills probably causes other problems for you. We’ve already seen your inability to draw logical conclusions from the data at hand. Now that you’ve “conquered” the realm of stupidity, I see you’re trying to branch out into paranoid fantasies. Maybe yer momma can keep you safe from all those mean people who scare you — like the ones who say “Good morning, little NR.” Seriously — I think there are meds for your paranoid fantasies/delusions, you might ask your pediatrician.
You and your love-idol, TEFA, have the same inability to speak truth. Maybe you can get elected dogcatcher in whatever fortress you live in. [Because if you see EVERYONE as having violent fantasies, as appears to be the case with you, living in a public space might cause you to have yet another meltdown.]
Tell yer momma that you need help, I’m sure she can do something for you. Unfortunately for you, she may end up saying “Well if you keep making shit up and projecting onto others as you keep doing, you get no dessert tonight.” No doubt that, in response, you’ll tell her she has “violent fantasies.” Because it’s all you know.
NR
@SFAW:
Another lie. Like I said, of the two of us, you are the only one who’s posted your violent fantasies for everyone to see. You did it in these very comments. The fact that you’re now lying and trying to pretend I did is pathetic.
You’re a very sick, disturbed individual and you need professional help. Please get it. Because while you can’t hurt me, I’m sure there are other people you can hurt. And I don’t want to see that happen.