What does Chuck Schumer look like?

Say Medicare privatization again, I dare you, I double dare you motherfucker:

“The Republicans’ ideological and visceral hatred of government could deny millions of senior citizens across the country the care they need and deserve,” Schumer said in the statement. “To our Republican colleagues considering this path, Democrats say: make our day. Your effort will fail, and this attack on our seniors will not stand.”

I don’t care how many fucking Russian twitter bots they send out there to talk up the glories of vouchercare, this aggression will not stand.






178 replies
  1. 1
    Trentrunner says:

    Schumer just took off his centrist glasses and undid his big-bank ponytail hair and let it flow around his shoulders…

    “Why, Mr. Schumer…you’re…a fighting progressive!”

  2. 2
    beth says:

    Too many big words. I suggest using terms like “greedy republicans” and “granny starvers” as often as Trump said “crooked Hillary”. This is a fight we need to win people.

  3. 3
    Poopyman says:

    @beth: Ixnay. There are times when you line up behind the leader, hefting a tire iron in each hand.

    This is one of those times.

  4. 4
    Suzanne says:

    Good for Schumer. I want to see this level of passion and steadfastness out of all of them.

  5. 5
    Will R says:

    I hope the Democrats have a messaging strategy to counter the media’s narrative as well as Republican pretexts for gutting Medicare. “Overhaul” is a perfect weasel word to describe what Ryan wants to do.

    Might be unpopular here, but I’d run with “Ryan wants to turn Medicare into Obamacare” or something along those lines. Turn Sanders loose on this for more credibility.

  6. 6
    Corner Stone says:

    @Will R:

    Might be unpopular here, but I’d run with “Ryan wants to turn Medicare into Obamacare” or something along those lines. Turn Sanders loose on this for more credibility

    I had no idea what the first sentence meant but then I read the second one and stopped giving a fucking shit about anything you had to say.

  7. 7
    germy says:

    Well, Schumer endorsed Keith Ellison, which made me think “maybe he isn’t the late-stage capitalist tool all the progressive blogs say he is”

    Has he said anything about their plans to turn Social Security into some jiffy lube oil change coupons?

  8. 8
    Keith G says:

    I doubt that Medicare privatization will have much of a future since I do not think D Trump has this on his list of things he want to fight the public over.

  9. 9
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Corner Stone: you don’t think old hippies, Susan Sarandon, Cornel West and white college kids are key to the fight to preserve the social safety net?

    ETA: @germy: made me think, boy, Chuck Schumer must really hate Howard Dean

  10. 10
    gogol's wife says:

    Someone said he wants to do away with the FDIC? This is my nightmare.

    Well, somewhere after nuclear war.

  11. 11
    eemom says:

    Sheeyit, Schumer, that’s all you had to say.

  12. 12
    Corner Stone says:

    “There are no American tanks in Baghdad, and there never will be!”
    *Turn Sanders loose on this for more credibility*

  13. 13
    Corner Stone says:

    “We testify before Congress that cigarettes do not cause cancer.”
    *Turn Sanders loose on this for more credibility*

  14. 14
    germy says:

    @Keith G:

    I doubt that Medicare privatization will have much of a future since I do not think D Trump has this on his list of things he want to fight the public over.

    herr drumpf agrees with whoever is polite to him and whoever is the last person who spoke to him. I can see Ryan presenting a thick wad of papers (that drumpf will recoil from having to (gulp!) read) and saying “Here’s our plan to save and preserve Medicare; just sign here” and the stubby little fingers will scrawl a signature. Details are for suckers.

  15. 15
    Corner Stone says:

    “Betsy DeVos totally wants to improve public education through reform programs and does not want to steal every fucking public dollar in sight for private interests.”
    *Turn Sanders loose on this for more credibility*

  16. 16
    germy says:

    @gogol’s wife: Allison, the guy drumpf wants for the Treasury. No bank regulations and no FDIC.

    Like putting a rabid wolf in charge of Betty’s henhouse. A new morning in america, all blood and feathers.

  17. 17
    Shalimar says:

    @germy: Schumer is a bank toady and a publicity whore, but generally progressive on other issues outside of Israel. Reid wasn’t a liberal by any stretch of the imagination, but I think he did an excellent job of corralling Dem senators on important issues. The important thing will be how well Schumer holds the caucus together.

  18. 18
    John Revolta says:

    “Trump needs to release his tax returns!”
    *Turn Sanders loose on this for more credibility*

  19. 19
    D58826 says:

    OT on the Obama girls MIA from turkey pardon ‘Michelle Obama on the first daughters’ absence from holiday events: “This is what happens when you get teenagers

  20. 20
    Yutsano says:

    @efgoldman: They want to do it as one fell swoop through reconciliation without going through all the niceties that will entail. Note there is no explanation about what happens to the money already paid in to either Social Security or Medicare, and that will be the ultimate screw point. But reconciliation rules can be objected to, and I have a feeling that’s the plan for Schumer and company.

  21. 21
    germy says:

    @Shalimar:

    Schumer is a bank toady and a publicity whore, but generally progressive on other issues outside of Israel.

    You’re right.

    And I’m not counting on AARP to lead the fight against dismantling Social Security. They make too much money from their various private insurance plans. They huff and puff, but in the end they say “Whatever changes you make, do it to everyone under 65.” They call themselves an association for retired people, and yet their advice is “Don’t retire!”

  22. 22
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @beth: Yes. Our side might as well not act like adults since we now have a spoiled brat as President. He wasn’t harmed by acting like an oversized kid so our side needs to start using short, pointed phrases so that the masses can understand. Otherwise you sound too educated and professorial.

  23. 23
    burnspbesq says:

    @Keith G:

    Reliance on the better angels of Trump’s nature is foolish. Period, full stop. Fucking your parents, aunts, and uncles is what gets Ryan out of bed in the morning. This is the hill to die on.

  24. 24
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Corner Stone: LOL!! You are killing me with this meme. I’m dying of laughter. We need to hug it out with Sanders’ till-death-do-they-part supporters, I guess. Looks like they’ve put all their hopes in him.

  25. 25
    aimai says:

    @germy: Actually, I just joined the AARP so I’d be able to call them up and demand that they do something about this.

  26. 26
    BGinCHI says:

    I hope the rug-pissers try it.

  27. 27
    germy says:

    @aimai: They won’t. Read the magazine and newspaper they send you. Every editorial they write advises to “put off retirement for as long as you can.”

    Also, be prepared: your mailman will be delivering a ton of insurance spiels from a variety of private providers (with fine-print disclaimer “AARP does not endorse advertisers who use their name in offers”)

  28. 28
    Yutsano says:

    @burnspbesq: Trump’s desires in this situation are irrelevant. He’ll pretty much sign any bill that comes across his desk without even a first thought. This fight is in Congress. Which is why I donated to Foster Campbell today.

  29. 29
    germy says:

    @Yutsano:

    He’ll pretty much sign any bill that comes across his desk without even a first thought.

    Exactly. His motto is TLDR.

  30. 30
    rikyrah says:

    finally..he’s making sense.

  31. 31
    Bailey says:

    @Will R:

    Might be unpopular here, but I’d run with “Ryan wants to turn Medicare into Obamacare” or something along those lines. Turn Sanders loose on this for more credibility.

    What does this mean?

  32. 32
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @germy:
    “AARP does not endorse advertisers who use their name in offers”
    Rent the name? So kind of like Trump?

  33. 33
    BBA says:

    @Bailey: Obamacare is hideously unpopular in Real America. Medicare is still quite popular there. Republicans won’t listen to us Fake Americans, but they will listen to Real Americans.

  34. 34
    Shalimar says:

    @Bailey: It means the voucher system they are proposing with insurance companies offering plans that seniors can look at on an exchange is similar in many ways to Obamacare, which Republicans like Ryan supposedly hate. What Will is saying is accurate afaict, but it’s simpler to just argue “assholes are trying to destroy Medicare. vouchers won’t help if insurance companies won’t offer you a policy.”

  35. 35
    germy says:

    @Gelfling 545: I read the fine print in the AARP magazine and newspaper they kept sending me. A thousand advertisers use the AARP name to seem more trustworthy.

    AARP’s disclaimer is in 4-point type.

  36. 36
    eldorado says:

    coupon care

  37. 37
    Shalimar says:

    @Gelfling 545: More like political campaigns and scams. AARP makes some of their money by selling their list of potential suckers, er, members.

  38. 38
    Mr Stagger Lee says:

    The Dallas Cowboys should now bench Dak Prescott, and star Tony Romo for the rest of the season, *Turn Sanders loose on this for more credibility*. Now I see how this works.

  39. 39
    Shalimar says:

    @germy: I have some hope that AARP will eventually be forced to take a side when hundreds of thousands of members call in outrage to complain. I have no hope that they will be leading any defense of Medicare. More like adding their name to supporters at the end so they don’t lose business once it is obvious that Vouchercare won’t pass.

    edit: IIRC, AARP also took a position defending Social Security very late in the 2005 fight, after it was already obvious that privatization was dead.

  40. 40
    Helen says:

    Just went on my first Dublin “date,” Yeah this is why I don’t date.

  41. 41
    Shalimar says:

    @Mr Stagger Lee: Bench Prescott and Romo, put Bernie out there. Old man can fling some serious shit, and he’s a winner if you ignore the big losses recently.

  42. 42
    Shell says:

    Vouchers are good for a free coffee at Dunkin Donuts. For health care? Not so much.

  43. 43
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Suzanne:

    Good for Schumer. I want to see this level of passion and steadfastness out of all of them.

    Likewise. Although I’m holding off for a while before I start calling him “Chuckie SMASH!!”

  44. 44
    Bailey says:

    @Shalimar:

    It means the voucher system they are proposing with insurance companies offering plans that seniors can look at on an exchange is similar in many ways to Obamacare, which Republicans like Ryan supposedly hate. What Will is saying is accurate afaict, but it’s simpler to just argue “assholes are trying to destroy Medicare. vouchers won’t help if insurance companies won’t offer you a policy.”

    Your second tack makes way more sense. I’d leave Obamacare out of it and message the fact that Republicans are trying to give you a coupon that no one is obligated to cash in.

  45. 45
    Pogonip says:

    This doesn’t have anything to do with Medicare but it’s a nice Thanksgiving story: when a grandma in Mesa, Arizona, accidentally texted the wrong teenager to invite him for Thanksgiving, she told him to come even though he wasn’t her grandson. He accepted and a good time was had by all. It’s on ABC news.

  46. 46
    JMG says:

    I just saw, but did not read, another article about Trump voters who’re now worried about losing health insurance, this time in Florida. I don’t want anyone to suffer, really I don’t, but at what point does apolitical cluelessness become plain old irresponsibility?

  47. 47
    Mnemosyne says:

    @BBA:

    I would really prefer not to demonize Obamacare any further since it has literally saved the lives of people under 65. Why take the Republican tack of pretending that the two programs have to be at odds with each other when they’re actually complementary?

  48. 48
    Mary G says:

    They were so outraged with the commercial of someone pushing Grandma off a cliff in her wheelchair we need to do it again.

  49. 49
    Suzanne says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Truth.

    In some ways, I hope that this situation invigorates the hell out of this party. We should be fiery and eloquent and use our minority status to say all the shit that we should’ve been saying, namely that the GOP and everyone in it are no better than highway robbers. Their elected representatives are only concerned for their own wealth and their vision for this country will destroy us all. Gloves off. Fuck their feelings.

  50. 50
    MazeDancer says:

    Stein filed the recount petition in Wisconsin.

    So she’s not grifting the full 5 mil

  51. 51
    tobie says:

    “Don’t turn Medicare into VoucherCare” sounds like a good slogan to me.

  52. 52
    Trentrunner says:

    @JMG: I have a hypothesis about Obamacare users voting for Trump:

    Spoiler: They’re fucking racists.

    There’s NO WAY they could’ve missed Trump’s “I will repeal and replace Obamacare. It’s gone” in every goddamn speech he gave.

    Yet those Trump voters don’t actually believe Trump will take away something that benefits THEM (nice white people), but Trump WILL rhetorically “get the n*gger” by shouting about repealing Obama’s signature legislation. In other words, another example of Trump’s voters taking him seriously but not literally.

    tl;dr: They’re racists and just wanted to stick it to Obama. They don’t believe Trump will harm THEM.

  53. 53
    BBA says:

    @Mnemosyne: Obamacare is dead. I wish it weren’t, but it is. We might as well use the Republican rank-and-file’s hatred of it to accomplish something useful.

  54. 54
    Suzanne says:

    OT: Inspired by all y’all, we are watching “The Fellowship of the Ring”. Spawn the Younger is rapt. Nerd in the making.

  55. 55
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Trentrunner: White people benefiting from Obamacare have no idea that they’re using Obamacare, because they think Obamacare is free doctor visits for welfare recipients and illegal immigrants. And when they lose their Obamacare benefits they’ll blame Democrats anyway, because everything would have been great if they hadn’t gotten so carried away with free stuff for lazy moochers with dark skin, a/k/a “the deficit.”

  56. 56
    Steeplejack (tablet) says:

    @Suzanne:

    How old is StY?

  57. 57
    Mnemosyne says:

    @BBA:

    It’s useful to completely discredit the idea of affordable health insurance for people under 65?

  58. 58
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Pogonip:

    Aww, what a sweet story. Restores my soul a little.

  59. 59
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Trentrunner:

    Same thing happened in Kentucky. Poor whites voted for the Republican who specifically said he would end Kynect, the state’s version of Obamacare, and were then shocked when they lost their healthcare. It wasn’t supposed to apply to THEM, damn it!

    Some people have to be smacked in the face by reality. Nothing else works.

  60. 60
    eclare says:

    @eemom: Hahaha, send in the Wolf!

  61. 61
    Trentrunner says:

    @FlipYrWhig: Also true. Equally depressing.

  62. 62
    James Powell says:

    @Will R:

    Turn Sanders loose on this for more credibility.

    Last time we did that, we lost three Rust Belt states where his followers insisted he was very popular. How did that work out?

  63. 63
    BBA says:

    @Mnemosyne: Already been discredited, at least among anyone who’ll have any power in two months. Stop fighting the last war.

  64. 64
    Suzanne says:

    @Steeplejack (tablet): She turns six in a month. The Balrog is freaking her out.

  65. 65
    NR says:

    Glad to see this from Schumer. Let’s hope he keeps this up.

  66. 66
    gogol's wife says:

    @Shalimar:

    I quit AARP last week in frustration from not finding anyone to say they would fight this. But finally I got someone who was quite definite that they would, so I rejoined. I don’t know what the alternative is. I also joined the National Committee To Preserve Social Security and Medicare, but I don’t know how powerful they are.

  67. 67
    NR says:

    @Mnemosyne: “Affordable.”

  68. 68
    Yutsano says:

    @BBA: Kill Obamacare and Medicare starts getting worse again. Support of both is necessary.

  69. 69
    Mnemosyne says:

    @BBA:

    Unless you’re planning to completely give up on the idea of universal healthcare and drop it from the Democratic platform forever, this battle will be coming back again. Handing the enemy a weapon to use against us in that battle — Even liberals hated having universal healthcare! — is moronic.

  70. 70
    gogol's wife says:

    I don’t have a lot of acquaintances for voted for Trump, but what I’m noticing is that they have completely dropped the subject. They’re not paying the slightest attention to all the outrages he’s perpetrated since the election, just as they paid no real attention to him before the election. They just didn’t want to vote for Clinton. Their cluelessness continues. They’re happy as clams. It’s going to take a lot to get through their incredibly thick skulls.

  71. 71
    les says:

    @aimai:

    Actually, I just joined the AARP so I’d be able to call them up and demand that they do something about this.

    Good luck. They lost me when they went all in on Dubya’s prescription plan–an obvious screwing of seniors, and still preventing gov’t negotiation of drug prices. AARP blows.

  72. 72
    Mnemosyne says:

    @NR:

    Please ask the several commenters at this very website who are alive today thanks to Obamacare how they feel about it. Strangely, people with chronic and pre-existing conditions that could potentially kill them didn’t want to wait for a perfect system.

  73. 73
    les says:

    @Shalimar:

    I have some hope that AARP will eventually be forced to take a side when hundreds of thousands of members call in outrage to complain.

    I dunno–will it cost them their discount card at the buffay?

  74. 74
    NR says:

    @Mnemosyne: Actually there’s a much better way to get universal health care. It’s called Medicare for All, which the Democrats could have and should have passed back in 2009. If they had, we wouldn’t be in this mess today.

    If we want universal health care in the future, that’s the way forward. Hopefully the moronic idea of forcing everyone by law to give money to private corporations will be dead forever.

  75. 75
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    O/T: Adam Silverman, if you’re around, I hope you’ll post later about this KT McFarland person that Trump’s just named to his NatSec team.

    I don’t think I’ve ever heard of her before, but apparently she ran (unsuccessfully) in the 2006 GOP primary for Hillary’s Senate seat. She accused HRC of flying helicopters over her house and spying on her through her bedroom window.

    Where in the everloving blue-eyed fuck does Trump find these people?

  76. 76
    divF says:

    @NR: Joe Lieberman would have (and probably did) veto it. Next !

  77. 77
    Van Buren says:

    @Mnemosyne: Smacking won’t work either, for most of ’em.. I think a shillelegh is called for.

  78. 78
    NR says:

    @Mnemosyne: And those people would still be alive today if the Democrats had passed Medicare for All, which was completely within their power to do. And millions more would have been helped besides.

    Sure, it’s great that those people are alive. But there are also plenty of people out there who the ACA did fuck-all for. Why don’t you ask them what they think?

  79. 79
    NR says:

    @divF: The Democrats could have eliminated the filibuster at any time. No more veto for Lieberman. Next!

  80. 80
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @divF: Thereby allowing Jim Webb, Ben Nelson, Tim Johnson, Jon Tester, Mary Landrieu, Blanche Lincoln and Mark Pryor (and probably a couple of others) to remain silent on the subject
    ETA: Claire McCaskill. How could I forget courageous liberal firebrand Claire McCaskill
    ETA, A: Mark Warner, Bill Nelson, Tom Carper, two month Democrat Arlen Specter Michael Bennet….

  81. 81
    divF says:

    @NR: Medicare for all needed 60 votes in the Senate, and there wasn’t 60 votes there.

  82. 82
    Mnemosyne says:

    @NR:

    Well, you hop on into your DeLorean and go back to 2009 to fix that. I don’t have time for your fanfic imaginings today.

  83. 83
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @divF: and probably not fifty, but the troll can’t or won’t accept that.

  84. 84
    Kathleen says:

    @D58826: Doesn’t this meet Mainslime Media’s criterion for a “scandal”? I wonder if Malia or Sasha send emails by chance.

  85. 85
    NR says:

    @divF:

    Medicare for all needed 60 votes in the Senate

    Only because the Democrats decided to keep the filibuster. 50 votes to get rid of the filibuster, and 50 votes to pass Medicare for All, is all it would have taken.

    But the Democrats didn’t want to do it. Because they cared more about protecting the profits of the big insurance companies then they did about doing the best thing to improve healthcare.

  86. 86
    Yoda Dog says:

    @BBA: Playing into the nazi lie that the Affordable Care Act sucks and should be repealed is not a winning strategy for us. That is fucking stoopid.

    After they repeal it, which you rightfully point out they already have, we start telling stories like Werebear and Mayhew and others are already gathering. That is smart.

  87. 87
    Keith G says:

    @burnspbesq:

    …what gets Ryan out of bed in the morning. This is the hill to die on.

    That’s not the hill Trump plans to die on. Trump is not allergic to debt. He is not a movement conservative. I have no idea what his final decision will be, but he won the nomination beating up on the most movement attuned of movement conservatives. His views on entitlements is not theirs.

    Trump cares about Trump. I think that means he cares about tackling tax code and regulation, energy policy, defanging the EPA, Military and security ramp ups and immigration. I think the noise and fight over Medicare will be more important to him than his cherished, BFF relationship with Paul Ryan.

  88. 88
    NR says:

    @Mnemosyne: Of course we can’t change the past, but we can learn the lessons of the past and do the right thing in the future. Assuming the Democrats ever get a clue and quit losing the whole country to the Republicans, of course.

  89. 89
    Mike G says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Surveys showed that Kynect was moderately popular in Kentucky, but people hated “Obamacare”.
    It was the exact same program.
    Sometimes you just can’t fix stupid and ignorant.

  90. 90
    BBA says:

    @Yutsano: @Mnemosyne:
    I’m not saying to make it official Democratic talking points or anything, I’m saying that in the current political climate the best we can do is sabotage the most harmful and least popular proposals, even by less-than-savory means. Start an astroturf group of Concerned Patriotic Americans Who Are Very Concerned About Medicare. Divide and conquer, it worked so well for them against us. Stop being polite and start fucking rats.

  91. 91
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Mnemosyne: No revolution without martyrs. [1]

    [1] Preferably someone else.

  92. 92
    divF says:

    @NR: So, we’re playing infinite regress, are we ? Then you have to explain why MfA couldn’t even get 50 votes to kill the filibuster.

    ETA: Hint – it had nothing to do with MfA. We had a bunch of blue dog Democrats in the Senate who did not want to lose that lever. And that isn’t going to change anytime soon, not if we expect to have a majority.

  93. 93
    NR says:

    @Davis X. Machina: Medicare for All wouldn’t have martyred anyone. But keep banging that bullshit talking point.

  94. 94
    NR says:

    @divF: I already explained it. The Democrats cared more about protecting insurance company profits than they did about improving healthcare.

  95. 95
    raven says:

    Why in the fuck do you people engage with this punk? Goddam it.

  96. 96
    Baud says:

    You’ll fighting a losing battle with NR, because he is right. Dems held Congress and the White House, so it was within their collective power to pass the Omnibus Liberal Utopia Act of 2009, which all of America would have loved and which would have won the Dems reelection for all eternity.

    The fact that they didn’t pass OLUA can only mean they are in cahoots with the capitalists. Sure, neither FDR nor LBJ passed OLUA with even bigger majorities, but it’s bourgeoisie of you to even question where the current unachievable standard have come from.

    ETA: I see raven is here. Fuck LBJ.

  97. 97
    divF says:

    @NR: I don’t see you articulating a vision with a credible path to success, or even pointing to someone who does.

  98. 98
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @divF: the path is Bernie!, and that path, which is lit by Bernie!, leads to Bernie!

  99. 99
    FDRLincoln says:

    NR is the type of person who would have been attacking the German Social Democrats from the left in February 1933.

  100. 100
    dlm says:

    Just tell people the truth. If you have paid FICA tax and your employer has paid FICA tax, you have paid into SS and Medicare. If you are sixty five and eligible, you will be allowed on Medicare. Medicare payments will be deducted from your monthly SS before it is deposited into your account. It ain’t free. I don’t understand why no one is saying this.

  101. 101
    SgrAstar says:

    @aimai: Aimai, I think that’s good strategy. I also think aarp will stand firm on the side of SS and Medicare. Hope springs eternal.

  102. 102
    raven says:

    @efgoldman: The BCBS who made us come back from our vacation because they wouldn’t cover her wrist surgery out of state?

  103. 103
    divF says:

    @NR: No, a whole variety of Dems were concerned about protecting their minority leverage in the Dem caucus and in Senate. Post hoc is not propter hoc.

  104. 104
  105. 105
    divF says:

    @Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant): All right, all right :-( .

  106. 106
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @FDRLincoln: You mean ‘Social Fascists”….

  107. 107
    Baud says:

    @Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant): How was your Thanksgiving?

  108. 108
    VFX Lurker says:

    @NR:

    Sure, it’s great that those people are alive. But there are also plenty of people out there who the ACA did fuck-all for. Why don’t you ask them what they think?

    The ACA may not have saved all who needed help, but it mattered a *great deal* to the lives that it saved.

    Come back when you learn compassion.

  109. 109
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @NR: You may not have noticed but Republicans controll Congress, the House and the presidency. It is actual people who will be dead forever from waiting for your ideal plan to arrive.

  110. 110
    NR says:

    @Baud:

    Dems held Congress and the White House, so it was within their collective power to pass the Omnibus Liberal Utopia Act of 2009, which all of America would have loved and which would have won the Dems reelection for all eternity.

    Okay, you set me straight. I realize now that you’re right. The public loved the neoliberal crap the Democrats passed instead when they held the trifecta, and responded by giving them resounding electoral victories all over the country, culminating in a sweeping White House win in 2016. The liberals were wrong and you were right all along. It sure is a good thing you didn’t listen to us back then or something really bad might have happened.

  111. 111
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    watching Joy Reid talk about that loud mouth who got on a Delta flight bellowing about Trump and “Hillary bitches”… wasn’t a brown mathematician removed from a flight because some precious white flower thought he was drawing terrorist runes?

  112. 112
    NR says:

    @VFX Lurker: Don’t talk to me about compassion. I was advocating for Medicare for All, which would have helped everyone.

    You, on the other hand, have a stunning lack of compassion for all the people the ACA didn’t help.

  113. 113
    Baud says:

    @NR: Since I don’t like to be rude, I wanted to respond just to let you know that I am taking raven’s and Ben’s advice. Have a good evening.

  114. 114

    @Baud: Good. Dad gets sprung next week. Ramp and shower will be done by then. Caught up with family and friends. Healing continues.

  115. 115
  116. 116
    Bailey says:

    @James Powell:

    Last time we did that, we lost three Rust Belt states where his followers insisted he was very popular. How did that work out?

    lolz, what? Sanders is being blamed for not being able to sell Hillary’s economic agenda to states where she never presented it? Okay.

  117. 117
    nycmt says:

    @germy: I have confirmed from AARP that they oppose anything that reduces benefits.

  118. 118

    *checks comments*
    Ah, it’s one of those threads. I’m going to write a browser plugin that tells you when you’re reading Russian propaganda. You kids have fun.

  119. 119
    Yoda Dog says:

    @Bailey: Maybe not blaming him so much as blaming ourselves for believing Sanders’ endorsement (tepid and prolonged in coming though it may have been..) and subsequent campaigning provided any actual credibility for us with the WWC… or as I like to call them, White People.

  120. 120
    Baud says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    It’s all Russian propaganda.

  121. 121
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Baud: @Baud: like kale? I’ve had my suspicions about this “kale” stuff.

  122. 122
  123. 123
  124. 124
    Baud says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Don’t say that out loud.

  125. 125
    debbie says:

    @Suzanne:

    And now he’s on the record. Let him try to walk this back.

  126. 126
    Bailey says:

    @Yoda Dog:

    Maybe not blaming him so much as blaming ourselves for believing Sanders’ endorsement (tepid and prolonged in coming though it may have been..) and subsequent campaigning provided any actual credibility for us with the WWC… or as I like to call them, White People.

    Only the candidate can truly sell the candidate. Wondering why Sanders couldn’t get Clinton over the finish line in states she either a.) Never visited at all or b.) Never wandered outside the city/immediate suburbs of is an exercise in absurdity.

    Should we also blame Obama for not bringing in the same ratio of African-American supporters that he enjoyed? At what point will posters accept the fact that the many deficiencies could not be “fixed” by anyone but Clinton? This not taking responsibility for oneself is going to extremes here.

  127. 127
    debbie says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    As it was everywhere else, they let their resentment take over their self-interest. They will all regret this, probably very soon.

  128. 128
    Emma says:

    @Bailey: Christ. The FBI, the Russian government, 30 years of constant persecution, Sanders’ crap during the primaries, lies. lies. lies… and she still got two million votes more than her opponent. At what point do people like you stop?

  129. 129
    Baud says:

    @debbie: Why do we believe he would? I don’t know enough about Schumer to have a view on this.

  130. 130
    debbie says:

    @gogol’s wife:

    I couldn’t tell you what my family of Trump voters have felt since the election because I haven’t spoken to them. I’d like to think they’re having second thoughts, but I might as well ask for a glittery unicorn for Christmas.

  131. 131
    raven says:

    @efgoldman: We’re an HMO. Fuck them and LBJ! I just looked at our account and they denied the Urgent Care but the orthopod is “pending”. We’ll be way better off if they pay the ortho but we went there second so I don’t have my hopes up. Then we came back here and walked in to out local Ortho Urgent Care but we made it clear we were a walk-in to see the PA as opposed to urgent care. The most important thing is that she got the earliest possible surgery so we’ll see.

  132. 132
    Yoda Dog says:

    @Bailey: Oh I didn’t realize we were just spoiling for an excuse to beat the shit out of Clinton some more. I’ll pass, thanks. Have a great night.

  133. 133
    debbie says:

    @Baud:

    Because he’s equivocated in the past (please don’t ask for specifics because it was a very long day at work).

  134. 134
    debbie says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    I’d also like Adam to address whether this is the most amateurish Cabinet in the history of this country. Some Fox commentator, for Chrissakes?

  135. 135
    Baud says:

    @debbie: OK, thanks. Hope you can have a relaxing evening.

  136. 136
    NR says:

    @efgoldman: Maybe one day people here will finally get it in their heads that saying “The Democrats didn’t have the votes” is exactly the same thing as saying “The Democrats didn’t want to pass it.”

    Maybe one day.

  137. 137
    Suzanne says:

    There is the idea around here that the electorate only listens if the candidate goes to their shithole hamlet in Pigsknuckle County and holds a rally at the County Fair to talk about specific issues and policies related to that area. FFS. All politics is national. Everyone has TV and Facebook. If you think that not going to enough shitty towns in enough shitty states is what lost Clinton the election, then you are high or stupid or both.

    Trump tapped into the deep story. HE IS GOOD AT THIS. He is not good at anything else, but the man knows how to communicate to his people. He is very good at marketing/branding/THE CON. He knows what they want to hear, and he knew that all of the things that we think are important like stupid mailers are so two thousand and late (just like that lyrical reference).

    The election was not lost because of policy or positions or campaign strategy. It was lost because voting is primarily an emotional act and we fail to recognize it, and to exploit that.

  138. 138
    Emma says:

    @NR: Not likely. Most of us are reality-based.

  139. 139
    Bailey says:

    @Emma:

    Christ. The FBI, the Russian government, 30 years of constant persecution, Sanders’ crap during the primaries, lies. lies. lies… and she still got two million votes more than her opponent. At what point do people like you stop?

    Stupid ideas are stupid ideas. The idea that a surrogate, ANY surrogate, fails to get another person elected is just flat out a stupid idea. Nowhere in the history of presidential elections has a surrogate been the main reason someone voted for a candidate. The candidate sells themselves or they don’t. That’s how it works.

    For a “reality based” community to be reality based, facing up to reality would be a great starting point.

  140. 140
  141. 141
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @Baud:

    it was within their collective power to pass the Omnibus Liberal Utopia Act of 2009

    I blame Baud!.

  142. 142
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Mnemosyne:I

    would really prefer not to demonize Obamacare any further since it has literally saved the lives of people under 65.

    Each one of those lives saved pushes back the glorious dawn of single payer a few hours…

  143. 143
    J R in WV says:

    @raven:

    BcBs is different in every state. Really. So the BcBs that screwed your wife isn’t the BcBs that’s going to help out efgoldman.

    fuck LBJ, fuck NR.

  144. 144

    @gogol’s wife: he’s thinking about picking a nutty Treasury secretary who wants to do it, anyway. But the whole Republican leadership is nuts on money. Pence, Ryan, and Cruz are all gold bugs or next to gold bugs.

    I am trying to figure out what to do with my retirement savings in this situation. Fun, fun.

  145. 145
    ruemara says:

    @Bailey: The problem is the voters and black turnout nearly matched Obama in 2012. Can you stash the blame Clinton monologue for say, a week?

  146. 146
    Bailey says:

    @ruemara:

    The problem is the voters and black turnout nearly matched Obama in 2012.

    Okay, but that’s not entirely true. Reality based shows that 88% of African Americans voted for Clinton. Obama got 93%. Obama campaigned hard for Clinton. Do we blame him for not bringing the other 5% home?

    Can you stash the blame Clinton monologue for say, a week?

    It wasn’t a “blame Clinton” monologue. It was pointing out that blaming Sanders, campaigning in the Rust Belt states, for failing to get Clinton the win there is completely absurd. Do you not agree with that?

  147. 147
    NR says:

    @Emma: The reality is that “the votes” are not some magical thing that the Democrats can always chase but never get. “The votes” are just the way Democratic politicians vote. If they want to vote for something, they can. If they don’t vote for it, it means they didn’t want it.

    That is reality.

  148. 148
    NR says:

    @Davis X. Machina: But everyone who died, or lost their home, or had something else bad happen because we didn’t pass Medicare for All is just an acceptable loss to bring in the incrementalist neoliberal utopia, right?

  149. 149
  150. 150
    Bailey says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Is there any point at which you will succeed in understanding that fewer Black voters showed up this year because they were specifically and deliberately prevented from voting?

    Really? Tell that to these guys who had no voting issues whatsoever except they didn’t bother showing up.

    Many in Milwaukee Didn’t Vote and Don’t Regret It

    MILWAUKEE — Four barbers and a firefighter were pondering their future under a Trump presidency at the Upper Cutz barbershop last week.

    “We got to figure this out,” said Cedric Fleming, one of the barbers. “We got a gangster in the chair now,” he said, referring to President-elect Donald J. Trump.

    They admitted that they could not complain too much: Only two of them had voted. But there were no regrets.

    “I don’t feel bad,” Mr. Fleming said, trimming a mustache. “Milwaukee is tired. Both of them were terrible. They never do anything for us anyway.”

    As Democrats pick through the wreckage of the campaign, one lesson is clear: The election was notable as much for the people who did not show up, as for those who did. Nationally, about half of eligible voters did not cast ballots.

    And:

    At Upper Cutz, a bustling barbershop in a green-trimmed wooden house, talk of politics inevitably comes back to one man: Barack Obama. Mr. Obama’s elections infused many here with a feeling of connection to national politics they had never before experienced. But their lives have not gotten appreciably better, and sourness has set in.

    “We went to the beach,” said Maanaan Sabir, 38, owner of the Juice Kitchen, a brightly painted shop a few blocks down West North Avenue, using a metaphor to describe the emotion after Mr. Obama’s election. “And then eight years happened.”

    All four barbers had voted for Mr. Obama. But only two could muster the enthusiasm to vote this time. And even then, it was a sort of protest. One wrote in Mrs. Clinton’s Democratic opponent, Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. The other wrote in himself.

    There are plenty of people that could vote and did not vote. Harping on and on about completely unprovable allegations does nothing to win elections for Democrats. Continuing to link to the same think pieces over and over again without any actual data to back them up is a nonsense argument not useful to the reality based community. When actual results come out, feel free to press that argument. Until then, it’s likely that the men at the barber shop speak for thousands of other voters just like them.

    PS – your article leaves out PA and MI which was unaffected. So your analysis is pretty weak across the board.

  151. 151
    Suzanne says:

    @efgoldman: Yes, you are correct.

    @NR: I don’t understand why you see opposition to a somewhat liberal-ish policy from a center-right country and conclude that the problem is that the policy wasn’t left-wing enough and that if only it had been leftier, more of the righties would have been on board. That…..is not logical.

  152. 152
    NR says:

    @Suzanne: Because it’s not about “left” versus “right.” The public wants good policy that works and makes their lives better. I’ll remind you that 70% of the people wanted a public option in the ACA, which was a far more “left” option than the Democrats’ corporate overlords saw fit to give us.

    Similarly, “left” programs like Social Security and Medicare are incredibly popular, even in this supposedly center-right nation. By your logic, if we are such a center-right nation, the country should hate those liberal programs and love the conservative, corporate-friendly ACA. Yet the exact opposite is true. Why do you suppose that is?

  153. 153
    NR says:

    @Bailey: Not to mention that her own link says that fewer than 600 ballots were thrown out in Wisconsin because voters lacked proper ID. Hillary lost Wisconsin by 25,000 votes.

    Fighting voter suppression is important, but the data just doesn’t support blaming it for Hillary’s loss.

  154. 154
  155. 155
    Kathleen says:

    @debbie: Sherrod’s comments were right in line with what I’ve just heard from Schumer and Pelosi. So he was definitely “on point” in statements about Democratic strategy.

  156. 156
    Shalimar says:

    @NR: The votes were cast by actual people. Explain how you were going to get Max Baucus and Ben Nelson to vote for anything better than what we got

  157. 157
    Suzanne says:

    @NR:

    The public wants good policy that works and makes their lives better.

    HAHAHAAAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAA.

    Sorry.

    No, they don’t. They say they want that. They do not behave as if they want that. Because they don’t truly want that. Or, at least, they don’t want that exclusive of other, less savory things.

    Look, what people want and what they actually respond to are two entirely different things.

  158. 158
    Suzanne says:

    @NR:

    Similarly, “left” programs like Social Security and Medicare are incredibly popular, even in this supposedly center-right nation. By your logic, if we are such a center-right nation, the country should hate those liberal programs and love the conservative, corporate-friendly ACA.

    People only love those programs because they have convinced themselves that they are NOT LIBERAL. The actual policy doesn’t matter and never has. It is all in how it is branded. LORD HAVE MERCY. Learn! Observe!

    We were never going to get anything more leftist than the ACA simply because THE BOUGIE ELITIST BLACK DEMOCRAT PUSHED IT. That was the best we could do, because we were Democrats. If GWB had pushed the ACA or some equivalent, it would have been called the greatest right-wing triumph of the last fifty years. If you think a public option would have gotten through on the merits, I have a bridge for you.

  159. 159
    J R in WV says:

    @raven:

    You should call your insurance and lodge a formal protest, as a broken bone is an emergency by any definition. I’m sure there’s a few words in the formal policy about emergencies and location. You weren’t in China, for dog’s sake, you were right next door in FL… and then you were in your home town, seeing “your” ortho practice.

  160. 160
    NR says:

    @Shalimar: Again, you miss the point. Max Baucus and Ben Nelson were Democrats. If they didn’t want Medicare for All, that means Democrats didn’t want Medicare for all.

    To say nothing of the fact that they were only in a position to block it because the Democrats chose not to eliminate the filibuster.

  161. 161

    I hope they make it but it’s easy to take a position when you don’t have the votes to make it stick. If it comes down to it, I want to see Democrats filibuster Medicare privatization if that’s what it takes.

    (I’ll believe it when I see it.)

    @gogol’s wife: More detail, now that I’m at a computer and have some of my sources:

    Josh Barro (Business Insider, MSNBC) tweets on nutjob Allison (probably a Pence/Koch suggestion) who wants to deregulate banking, abolish the Fed, and put the USA back on the gold standard: http://crooksandliars.com/2016.....hn-allison.

    In addition to this, there’s a not-so-subtle thread of anti-semitism: the postmodern Jewish bankers are destroying our manly gold currency, blasted out of the ground by manly miners.

    My general take on this, from about two months ago: Mike Pence: He’s a goldbug; Paul Ryan, Speaker of the House: His idea, from Ayn Rand, is a commodity currency; Ted Cruz: another goldbug. These policies are all deflationary.

    Analysis of deflationary policy from Paul Krugman. Short-short summary: (1) it discourages investment; (2) it makes debt harder to bear; (3) it can lead to mass unemployment. If the Republicans do what they say they’re going to do, a slam into depression is possible.

    It’s been very nice but I have to scream now.

  162. 162
    NR says:

    @Suzanne:

    People only love those programs because they have convinced themselves that they are NOT LIBERAL. The actual policy doesn’t matter and never has. It is all in how it is branded. LORD HAVE MERCY.

    No. They love those programs because they are effective, they work, and they improve their lives and the lives of people in their families. They don’t think about Social Security and Medicare in terms of “left” or “right” at all.

    It would have been much easier–much easier–to sell an expansion of Medicare to the public than it was to sell the ACA. Medicare is already an incredibly popular program. All the Democrats would have had to do is make a very simple argument: We want to take Medicare, and expand it to cover everyone. That’s it. Simple, easily digestible, and easy to understand. Instead, they had to talk to the public about mandates and penalties and excise taxes and Cadillac plans. In no universe is that somehow easier than the Medicare argument.

  163. 163
    Lizzy L says:

    @Raven Onthill: I watched a large chunk of my retirement investment profits vanish into the ether in 2008. Not looking forward to going through that again.

  164. 164
    Suzanne says:

    @NR: I think that’s what I just said: they don’t think of those programs as liberal, because enough time has passed that they don’t remember the fight. But anything new, they live though the fight. So we will not get nice things because only Democrats want nice things and Democrats are The Other Tribe.

    God, you’re dense.

  165. 165
    Bailey says:

    @NR:

    It would have been much easier–much easier–to sell an expansion of Medicare to the public than it was to sell the ACA. Medicare is already an incredibly popular program. All the Democrats would have had to do is make a very simple argument: We want to take Medicare, and expand it to cover everyone. That’s it. Simple, easily digestible, and easy to understand. Instead, they had to talk to the public about mandates and penalties and excise taxes and Cadillac plans. In no universe is that somehow easier than the Medicare argument.

    Problem here is that, while in theory, Medicare for all sounds great, there are millions of people in this country that have far better insurance than what Medicare offers, expansive though it is. Try talking an employee of Microsoft into coming off the gold standard benefits package and onto Medicare for all. Probably not going to happen, so then you’re still left with this new Medicare for all plan being primarily populated by the underemployed / underinsured / and/or sick. I’m not sure the math on that would work out as everyone projects.

  166. 166
    NR says:

    @Suzanne: You know you’re arguing against yourself here, right? If the people you’re talking about love Medicare because they don’t think it’s liberal, then it would have been even easier for the Democrats to push an expansion of it.

    I think you’re wrong, but it really doesn’t matter. Whatever the reason, Medicare is popular. Building off a popular program would have been much easier than making something new.

  167. 167
    NR says:

    @Bailey: They could keep their private insurance if they wanted to. Their premiums would also have decreased since it wouldn’t have had to cover as much. Lots of countries in Europe have private insurance in addition to government coverage.

  168. 168
    Pogonip says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Update: The kid showed up at Grandma’s house with a jar of fancy mustard. “I always cross Mr. Farmer’s field when I come this way–he doesn’t mind–and today, there was this mustard! Just sitting on the hood of a junked Subaru!”

  169. 169
    Bailey says:

    @NR:

    They could keep their private insurance if they wanted to. Their premiums would also have decreased since it wouldn’t have had to cover as much. Lots of countries in Europe have private insurance in addition to government coverage.

    Yes, they do, as does Australia and, from what I hear and can tell, it works very well in coverage and keeping costs reasonable. But those countries don’t have the primary policies through their workplace, to varying degrees of excellence or bare minimum.

    Honestly, I would think that American companies would be far more vocal about health insurance and the desire to get it off their books. Essentially it means that large corporations are also health care companies and I’m not sure that’s what they’re really in business for. Not to mention, it makes them uncompetitive when they compete globally against companies that don’t have this overhead.

    I’d be interested in knowing the rationale for why more companies haven’t pushed for universal health care.

  170. 170
    cmorenc says:

    We just had dinner at the house of some friends who are both registered Republicans, very affluent ones at that (both are physicians in their 60s). About the only political comment that came up during dinner was when, in response to my commenting that I had to wait for my knee replacement until I was on Medicare because my previous BCBS policy I had formerly been on had a 5K annual deductible before – both of them replied: “well, he (Trump) had BETTER NOT mess around with our Medicare”. When their 20yo son home-from-college chirped: “Medicare probably won’t be around when I get to your age” they both replied: “that’s what we thought, too when we were your age.”

    Ryan and the other congressional GOP radicals may be overestimating their ability to blow smoke up the public’s ass about their scheme for dismantling Medicare, or their ability to sell it by exempting older people from having to change from the existing system to vouchers. They’re feeling overconfident at the moment, and underestimating the political hornet’s nest they are about to whack with a baseball bat.

  171. 171
    Steeplejack (tablet) says:

    @cmorenc:

    I really hope that’s the case, but I have little confidence, now that the world has turned upside down.

  172. 172
    Suzanne says:

    @NR: Medicare is popular. Democrats are not popular, at least among certain tribes in this country. FFS, did you expect logic from the “government out of my Medicare” contingent? Medicare was passed long enough ago that it doesn’t feel left-wing anymore. It feels normal.

    Anything a Democrat pushes forward will be automatically and immediately written off as horrible leftist commie pinko soshulist stealing from job creators. The only way to make it halfway palatable to dumb people is to make it a smaller, more incremental change, or to give something to the rich fuckers in the private sector. In short, despite what people say they want, they vote for people who do not support those policies. FFS, Romney did basically Obamacare in Massachusetts, then ran as far away from it as possible.

    People do not vote for policy on its merits. They do dumb, self-defeating, irrational shit ALL THE TIME. Literally hourly. They vote as an expression of self to identify with tribe. They vote the way many people get dressed or the way others get gang tattoos. They vote against their self-interest all the time. That should indicate to you that something else is at play that you are missing.

    We can’t have left-wing policy because it is proposed by the left wing.

  173. 173
    Steeplejack (tablet) says:

    @Suzanne:

    We can’t have left-wing policy because it is proposed by the left wing.

    True, true, true!

  174. 174
    Bailey says:

    @Suzanne:

    There is the idea around here that the electorate only listens if the candidate goes to their shithole hamlet in Pigsknuckle County and holds a rally at the County Fair to talk about specific issues and policies related to that area. FFS. All politics is national. Everyone has TV and Facebook. If you think that not going to enough shitty towns in enough shitty states is what lost Clinton the election, then you are high or stupid or both.

    Trump tapped into the deep story. HE IS GOOD AT THIS. He is not good at anything else, but the man knows how to communicate to his people. He is very good at marketing/branding/THE CON. He knows what they want to hear, and he knew that all of the things that we think are important like stupid mailers are so two thousand and late (just like that lyrical reference).

    The election was not lost because of policy or positions or campaign strategy. It was lost because voting is primarily an emotional act and we fail to recognize it, and to exploit that.

    I think you may have missed the part where Trump went to a bunch of shitty towns to, yes, tell his story. If you think a campaign can be won entirely on TV and Facebook then you are high or stupid or both. Clinton, as you recall, blanked the airwaves in ads, Trump had none. Tell me what was more effective, going to those shitty towns and giving every one a hat with a story on it, or not getting out at all?

  175. 175
    SWMBO says:

    @Bailey: What was more effective was blanketing the air waves with free media fluffing his bullshit 24/7. He knew how to work the rubes and the media and Clinton didn’t get equal treatment because REASONS. He didn’t go to many shitty towns because he could parlay 10 minutes in Podunk into hours of tv coverage the rest of the day. Also small shitty towns don’t usually have a venue the size Trump’s ego needed. We ran a flawed candidate. She lacked several important things. She lacked favorable media, lying showmanship and a narcissistic psychopathic destructive ego. If she hadn’t been as nice as she was, she might have done better with the WWC. She also lacked a pen*s and there was no way she was going to have a sex change operation just to get to be President. She had many flaws and most were insurmountable and unchangeable.

  176. 176
    SWMBO says:

    @SWMBO: I have hit my Popeye moment: I’ve had all I can stands, I can’t stands no more. I’m not apologizing for Hillary anymore. She did the best she could with what God gave her to work with. She won the popular vote even with all the shit that was against her. Fuck the haters. You want to pick on someone, go chew on Trump. You can stop this bullshit of kicking her while she’s down so that she stays down. Fuck off.

  177. 177
    No One You Know says:

    @SWMBO: Preach it, brother.

  178. 178
    Bailey says:

    @SWMBO:

    What was more effective was blanketing the air waves with free media fluffing his bullshit 24/7. He knew how to work the rubes and the media and Clinton didn’t get equal treatment because REASONS. He didn’t go to many shitty towns because he could parlay 10 minutes in Podunk into hours of tv coverage the rest of the day. Also small shitty towns don’t usually have a venue the size Trump’s ego needed.

    Have you actually looked at a map and the places Trump went? Johnstown, PA? Fletcher, NC? Abridge, PA? You’re kidding yourself if you don’t think he got to places that were certainly not cities and not even suburbs.

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