Why, Yes, Every Single Human Being I Know, I Have Heard About the Racist Ladies In Clay County

I’ve received more emails, fb mentions, twitter dm’s and mentions about this than anything else I can remember in the history of this blog, so I might as well address it formally. yes, I have heard about the two racist ass women in downstate WV who posted some “deplorable” shit to their facebook page:


An official at a Clay County agency lost her job Monday after publishing a racist Facebook post criticizing first lady Michelle Obama.

The mayor of Clay also was strongly criticized for commenting in approval of the post.

Pamela Ramsey Taylor, an employee of the Clay Development Corporation, referred to the first lady as an “ape in heels” in the Facebook post. A person who answered the phone at the Clay Development Corporation said Monday afternoon that Taylor has been removed from her post, but refused to comment further.

Clay Mayor Beverly Whaling commented on the post soon after, saying, “Just made my day Pam.”

Neither Taylor nor Whaling could be reached for comment Monday. Their Facebook pages have been deleted.

We can now report that Whaling, the Clay mayor (Clay is the county seat of Clay County, so if you are wondering if we backward hicks have mayors for counties, no, we don’t) has submitted her resignation. So I have now reported this, so hopefully the emails will stop.

What’s more interesting, probably, is why I didn’t mention it. And the reason I didn’t mention it was BECAUSE NO SHIT, HALF THE GOD DAMNED PEOPLE IN THE STATE HAVE BEEN SHARING AND SAYING SHIT LIKE THIS FOR EIGHT FUCKING YEARS. I’m honestly more surprised that someone got in trouble. That’s what is so horrifying about the election of Trump. Being overtly racist has been normalized and rewarded.

I mean, where has everyone been the past decade?

259 replies
  1. 1

    They seem awfully economically anxious.

  2. 2
    Adria McDowell (formerly Lurker Extraordinaire says:

    I guess if Michelle had posed in a bikini with a gun, they would like her better? I dunno….

  3. 3
    JPL says:

    You do know they aren’t racist though, right?
    Probably no black friends though, since there are only 15 in the county.

  4. 4
    debbie says:

    It’s still nice that people are finally getting in trouble for this kind of thing.

  5. 5
    Mudge says:

    Not so much in Morgantown, John, but the state is full of meth using scum, or coal barons looking at ruin, or the stupid. As you well know. It is perfectly believable that no one in Clay County knows a black person.

  6. 6
    Patricia Kayden says:

    Mrs. Obama is gorgeous in my eyes and the best FLOTUS in my lifetime. She has handled her job with grace and dignity even though she must be aware of the racism that has been spewed at her (and her family) by bigots like those featured here. I don’t blame her for scoffing when people suggest that she run for President. This country doesn’t deserve her.

  7. 7
    BGinCHI says:

    Pose nude and illegally immigrate = Classy

    Working your way out of the South Side of Chicago to Princeton and Harvard = Not Classy

    Good to know.

    Fucking racist hicks.

  8. 8
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    I want stuff like this mentioned. I want to be horrified and shocked every single goddamn time I read something like this. I want to be offended at racist/sexist/antisemitic/islamophobic “jokes” and Internet memes. I want to feel sick to my stomach every time some international celebrity, or minor government functionary, or ordinary Joe Sixpack, says or does or shares.

    I don’t ever want to see this kind of shit and simply shrug it off. I don’t ever want it to be normalized. Surprised? No, not any more. Appalled? Every fucking time.

  9. 9
    Honus says:

    It’s sad. It wasn’t always like this. I grew up in West Virginia in the sixties and remember Theodore White writing in The Making of the President 1960 that West Virginia had the best race relations of any state with a sizeable black population. People used to aspire to be better. Now the duck dynasty culture has made them proud to be stupid rednecks.

  10. 10
    Это курам на смех says:

    I am shunning all Trump voters. I don’t berate them; I don’t debate them. I say, politely, “This election is not normal, it is an affront to basic human decency. I have no desire to socialize with you any further, so please don’t speak to me again.”

    Admittedly this is easy here in deep blue Portland, where I have only a handful of people to ostracize in this manner.

    Will it help? I don’t know.

  11. 11
    Sloegin says:

    So… to be a dignified First Lady you have to be either white? Or have a published nude photos of yourself? I can never remember which one it is.

  12. 12
    WereBear says:

    Their Facebook pages have been deleted.

    Jiminy! That is a serious crime, all right.

    Seriously, they felt perhaps more emboldened than usual, if the stories I have been hearing are right.


  13. 13
    cokane says:

    WV i think had the highest GOP % in the prez this year. Just crazy what’s happened to the state that seceded from the confederacy.

  14. 14
    lollipopguild says:

    I always enjoy when a white person says something openly racist and gets called on it that person immediately says something like “i do not have a racist bone in my body, You can ask all my friends, I am Not a racist!” The jokes they write themselves. Yes I am white.

  15. 15
    khead says:

    I grew up in what has now become the Trumpiest county in America. McDowell Co. WV. Really disappointing. It’s as far south as one can get from John while still in WV. I’ve been working since the election but at some point I’d like to add a long post here to talk about the election and the home folks. My opinion cant be much worse than the other pundits.

  16. 16
    chris says:

    Someone, can’t remember the name, left this in a previous thread. Might be the best summary of white rural people I’ve ever read. It rang a lot of bells for me even here in my little Canadian backwater. Ayup, they’re here too.

  17. 17
    MomSense says:

    @Это курам на смех:

    That’s where I am too. I can be civil in public but that’s about it.

  18. 18
    Schlemazel says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    Thats the first thing I thought. Those poor women, so frightened for their economic future. The Dems need to work harder to win these people over

  19. 19
    lamh36 says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: I completely agree.

  20. 20
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    They seem awfully economically anxious.

    Perfect, M^4!

    I have a feeling that “economically anxious” is going to replace “also, too,” “I blame Obama,” “good news for John McCain,” and “all of them, Katie” as the go-to political catchphrase here on The Juice.

  21. 21
    Schlemazel says:


    It seems to me that there as been a continual stream of this shit documented on this very blog for the last 10 years. If people are surprised, shocked or suddenly noticed one thing that can be said about the Trump election is it woke people the fuck up. Sad it took such a national disaster.

  22. 22
  23. 23
    Timurid says:

    The pace and the scope of the normalization continues to blow my mind.
    It’s like watching everyone from Barack Obama to Bill Kristol to that football player who’s decided to stop kneeling at the anthem because he ‘overreacted’ to the election… walking hand in hand down the horror movie stairs to the fiend waiting in the basement.

  24. 24
    Hoodie says:

    @Honus: I think a 1960 idea of “great race relations” is a little bit of good old days mythology and I don’t imagine a graduate of Boston Latin and Harvard really knew all that much about W. Va. race relations. There was plenty of racism when I was growing up in N. Ga. in the 70’s, and rightwing radio, the internet, and Trump have brought it out from undercover.

  25. 25
    MomSense says:


    Thanks, Raven. Such a peaceful scene.

  26. 26
    slag says:

    Since objecting to overt and blatant racism is now an elitist act, I hope you’re preparing for your forced relocation to your new loft in Tribeca, John.

  27. 27
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    I can be civil in public

    That remains aspirational for me.

  28. 28
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Hear, hear.

  29. 29
    Aleta says:


    After campaigning as a champion of coal miners, Donald Trump is reportedly close to choosing for Commerce Secretary a New York billionaire who owned a West Virginia mine where a dozen miners were killed in 2006. Trump’s favored candidate, Wilbur Ross, also engineered buyouts that cost workers their benefits and their jobs. It’s a striking choice, considering Trump’s promises to improve the lives of coal miners and other working-class Americans.

    Ross made his money collecting “distressed assets”—failing steel and textile mills in the Midwest and South, and coal mines in Appalachia. Dubbed the “The King of Bankruptcy,” Ross cut jobs, wages, pensions, and health benefits at the companies he acquired, and reaped the profits. In the early 2000s, Ross’s foray into the steel industry netted him a $267 million personal windfall, but stripped health care benefits from more than 150,000 retired steelworkers. Then he moved on to the coal industry, at one point controlling as much as $1.2 billion in coal assets through his company, the International Coal Group.

    One of ICG’s acquisitions in West Virginia was the Sago Mine, about 100 miles east of Charleston. The mine, a non-union operation, racked up a slew of safety violations from federal inspectors—more than 208 in 2005 alone. That year, the roof of the mine collapsed twenty times. Workers at Sago were injured three times as often as workers in similar mines elsewhere. Though Ross claimed not to be part of operating management at Sago, he admitted later that he was aware of the violations, and waved them away.

    Then, early one January morning, methane ignited deep in the mine. The explosion instantly killed one worker and stranded a dozen others about two miles from the mouth of the mine, in a passageway filled with carbon monoxide. It was more than an hour before company managers called for help, and four hours until a rescue team arrived. Nearly two days later, when they finally reached the trapped miners, all but one had died. Ross and ICG set up a $2 million compensation fund for the families of the deceased—an amount, critics pointed out, that paled in comparison to Ross’s immense personal wealth. (Trump contributed $25,000 to that fund.)

    from The Nation

  30. 30
    ArchTeryx says:

    Considering that I’ve been “economically anxious” my entire adult life, and now may well be looking at the end of it, and I still vote Democratic?

    Screw the “economically anxious”. That’s nothing more then a politically correct way of saying “we were trained from birth to kick down.” I’ve been kicking up my whole life and paid the price, but at least my conscience is clear.

  31. 31
    Honus says:

    @khead: McDowell county population was nearly 100,000 when I was in high school, probably 15% black. Now it’s less than 10k, and virtually all white.

  32. 32
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    That’s beautiful, raven. Thanks for reminding us all that there’s beauty in the world.

    (Did you see, or photograph, the Supermoon?)

  33. 33
    mai naem mobile says:

    I am guessing Trump will hire her for black wimmens outreach because that’s who they would consider qualified,no?

  34. 34
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    Not sure why he didn’t select Don Blankenship.

    :: Googles ::

    Oh, right. He’s in prison for killing 29 coal miners. Sorry, Donald.

  35. 35
    Ksmiami says:

    @khead: I read The Glass Castle. Glad you survived that area. Horrid, petty and dumb gross people

  36. 36
    WereBear says:

    @Aleta: I will be interested in how the former coal miners will react to this news. How deep will the denial go?

  37. 37
  38. 38
    errg says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    you win the internets today…!

  39. 39
    Seth Owen says:

    It’s not normalized if we don’t normalize it, folks.

    I will remind everyone that the mainstream media during the 1960s was not generally behind all them ‘troublemakers’ either.

    It’s not going to be easy. I hope it will not take the kind of sacrifices that were made in the 60s, but it might. We need to be prepared for that level. Buckle up. Watch ‘Eyes on the Prize.’ Reread MLK’s Letter from Birmingham Jail. Do whatever helps. Have no illusions. But remember we aren’t the first to face a challenge like this.

  40. 40
  41. 41
    Helen says:

    They’re calling my flight. See all you fabulous people on the other side of the pond. Will report back. Love and calm and success and happiness to you all.

  42. 42
    Honus says:

    @Hoodie: North Georgia was/is a whole lot different than a lot of West Virginia. My home county (wetzel) and McDowell county were the two counties in what was then Virginia (1860) that had virtually no slave population. The racism in Virginia when I came to UVA from West Virginia in 1973 shocked me. I had never seen anything like it. There was a reason West Virginia seceded from Virginia. Now, Virginia is much more liberal than West Virginia.

    More than ten years ago told a friend that I shuddered to think about WVU having a black football or basketball coach. Fortyyears ago nobody would have blinked an eye.

  43. 43
    Fair Economist says:


    McDowell county population was nearly 100,000 when I was in high school, probably 15% black. Now it’s less than 10k, and virtually all white.

    Seriously, a 10-fold drop in population? That’s unbelievable.

  44. 44
    khead says:


    You are my Dad’s age then. Dad never left. But your post about race relations? “The Free State of McDowell”? – other folks can look that up on Wikipedia – is a myth. Once the shift at the mines was over, the miners went home to different areas. Even in the same communities.

  45. 45
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    And also to you.

  46. 46
    Schlemazel says:

    He posted a beautiful shot of it here the other night. Probably from close to the same place on the beach

  47. 47
    Mary G says:

    I guess because it’s California, Jake, I actually don’t hear shit like this. Ever. I can’t remember hearing a bad thing about Michelle Obama where I live, ever. I guess it’s the liberal bubble, so yeah, I’m surprised. From the link:

    The Clay Development Corp. is a non-profit that provides healthcare and social assistance to elderly and low-income residents of the area. It received more than $360,000 in government grants in 2014, according to income tax filings.

    The organization employs 192 people. Taylor, who served as executive director of the organization, made nearly $83,000 in 2014.

    Clay has a population of 468, according to 2013 statistics from the U.S. Census.

    So this town of 468 people has 192 of them working for a GOVERNMENT SUPPORTED ORGANIZATION. She made $83,000+ on taxpayer money. Paul Ryan will cut the whole organization off right quick.

    I am flabbergasted, gobsmacked, and all the rest.

  48. 48
    khead says:

    @Fair Economist:

    Yes. When my old man graduated HS in 1951, there were 100K in the county. I expect next census will be 10K.

  49. 49
    dmsilev says:


    Not sure why he didn’t select Don Blankenship.

    He still could. Remember, Trump will soon have Presidential pardoning powers.

    (Cheery thought for the day…)

  50. 50
    Big Ole Hound says:

    Sorry but the evangelical white church declares that people are black because of their past sins and those of their fore fathers so as long as this “noah’s ark” thinking is around the racist will flourish. The southern half of Ohio, Indiana and Illinois can join Kentucky, West Virginia and Tennessee as the holders of this wonderful belief and no amount of reason will ever change it as the idea of white supremacy is indoctrinated from birth.

  51. 51
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Aleta: Why it’s almost like the candidate who’s a lifelong scam artist just might have scammed people! And I’ll bet it doesn’t even make a dent, either in WV or nationwide.

  52. 52
    Honus says:

    @Fair Economist: Yep. I think Mingo is about the same. Widen, north of Charleston, was probably 8-10 k people in 1966. A high school, florists, Dept. stores, streets, police. It’s nothing now. Literally a ghost town. Everybody left when the mine closed.

  53. 53
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    Wow, just fucking gorgeous.

    I have a category in my Photos called “Out There Up There” — great pix of the moon, and stars, mostly. I hope you don’t mind, I’ve added this beautiful image to the album.

  54. 54
    NotMax says:

    Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio Michael Harrington
    Our nation turns it’s lonely eyes to you…

  55. 55
    GregB says:

    Raven. I have always appreciated your input.

    And eff LBJ.

  56. 56
    lollipopguild says:

    @Mary G: Oh NOES! she wuz working for the Big EVIL Government! Burn her at the stake!

  57. 57
    raven says:

    @Mustang Bobby: Quite a day. I had something hit my bait mid-morning. It was about 100 yards out, jumped and sliced the line in half. Mid-afternoon I was out throwing when I turned and saw that the rod and rod holder were gone. I was in the water so I hustled at an angle and the water is so clear I found the rod and reel and picked it up. I fought it for almost and hour and, when I got it close enough, saw it was a ray. I was exhausted but it was really fun. Then, at about 4, this sucker hit. Another 20 minute fight and I got the bull in. Snapped some pics and put it back. My back is killing me and I’m waiting to see if there are any hernia ramification!

  58. 58
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    Missed it first time around. (I try to keep up with all the posts and comments, but recently that has become a daunting task.)

    Grateful to raven for putting the photo up again.

  59. 59
    raven says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: course n


    thanks, I’m not watching much news right now. Just fishing

  60. 60
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    Come for the politics, stay for the pet pix.

  61. 61
    Ohio Mom says:

    @WereBear: Would like to see that reaction on videotape.

  62. 62
    Mary G says:

    Politico: Power battles bog down Trump transition

    I’ve been venturing out onto the internet a bit and finding nothing but incompetence and grifting.

    One week after winning the presidency in a stunning upset, Donald Trump is already botching the transition, insiders say.

    The daunting task of filling top Cabinet posts appears to be a chaotic scramble inside Trump Tower, with competing power centers jockeying for position and influence as a steady stream of names both realistic and not gets floated to a baffled media.

    “It’s an absolute knife fight,” said one Trump insider. “But that just makes it Tuesday.”


    “I would give them 100 to 150 days before the wheels are off and they’re fighting about everything,” said one GOP operative familiar with the Trump transition operation.

  63. 63
    lamh36 says:



    …The disarray has left agencies virtually frozen, unable to communicate with the people tasked with replacing them and their staff. Trump transition team officials were a no-show at the Pentagon, the Washington Examiner reported. Same goes for the Department of Energy, responsible for keeping the nation’s nuclear weapons safe, where officials had expected members of the Trump transition team on Monday. Ditto for the Department of Transportation. Over at the Justice Department, officials also are still waiting to hear from the Trump team…

  64. 64
    Cacti says:

    Just expressing their economic anxiety, right?

  65. 65
    Mary G says:

    @raven: Wow! I am so glad you are linking pictures of the moon, Bohdi, and other life-affirming things. And you threw it back! Maybe you can catch him again.

  66. 66
    dmsilev says:

    @lamh36: Maybe we can keep Obama’s people actually running things while Trump runs around making loud grunting noises.

  67. 67
    Cacti says:

    Is there any way we could add “expressing their economic anxiety” to the taglines?

  68. 68
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Mary G: I’d like to see her reaction when she’s laid off that $83,000 a year job on videotape too.

  69. 69
    Mnemosyne says:

    Okay, this Onion article is pretty funny, if only for the stereotypes about liberal showbiz stars.

  70. 70
    Schlemazel says:

    @Mary G:
    I hope they cut the whole office. It may be the only way someone that stupid will learn. Look, a lot of people are going to be hurt by this asshole. Many, far too many, do not deserve what is coming but people like her do. Lets see what we can do to make sure that Trump voters suffer worse than those who do not deserve to be hurt.

  71. 71
    NCSteve says:

    She should hold tight. There’s likely a cabinet post in her future.


  72. 72
    hovercraft says:

    @Adria McDowell (formerly Lurker Extraordinaire:

    I guess if Michelle had posed in a bikini with a gun, they would like her better?

    Psst, I don’t think the problem is her outfits or lack of an ammo phalus, it’s that she’s blah and fat also too!! The fat comments come from some of the most svelte commentators in the land, Hannity and El Rushbo. Speaking of the, when will we find out what their new posts in the new administration will be? And what about the “Great One” Mark Levin?

  73. 73
    raven says:

    @Mary G: The slot for reds in 17 to 28 and this one was 38 inches. A couple of years ago I caught one that size and took it to the local bait shop to weigh. They told me it would be a $1000 fine and all my gear If I got caught. I vowed to adhere to the limits hence.

  74. 74
    Archon says:

    I’m prepared to hear the left-wing theory of the case on why people voted for Trump that voted for Obama in 2012. It was statistically small but it looks like it made a crucial difference in the rust belt and we shouldn’t ignore how and why that happened. However every other cohort of the Trump voter was and is the same voter that pulled the lever for W, McCain, Romney and now Trump. Those voters can go fuck themselves.

    Anyone that believes their vote can be flipped with an “economic anxiety argument” without abandoning pretty much every other plank of modern day liberalism (especially when it comes to social, legal, and cultural concerns of blacks and browns) are basically lying to themselves.

  75. 75
    NotMax says:


    Governmentin’ is hard.

  76. 76
    Kay Eye says:

    Yes, you are right. That disgusting filth has been spewing forth openly for the last 8 years. I am a member of a mixed race family (never mind that there is no such thing as race). My grandchildren’s skin colors range from fish-belly white to rich brown. I wouldn’t have it any other way.
    And I am scared for all of them.

  77. 77
    Botsplainer says:


    Ammon Bundy will happily take Interior. No transition knowledge needed.

    That sort of thing may actually be the plan – competence and known skills may be anathema to what is supposed to happen.

  78. 78
    Mary G says:

    @lamh36: Wow is right. From your link:

    The transition dysfunction extends beyond failure to promptly execute a memorandum of understanding. According to several sources close to the Trump transition team and inside the Obama administration, the president elect and his staff have had difficulty finding able-minded Republicans willing to take on critical posts. One Democratic source, who like others would only discuss sensitive talks on condition of anonymity, said transition officials had been informally asking Obama political appointees to recommend Republicans to take over their jobs.

    For somebody so fond of making even the volunteers sign NDAs, its team sure leaks like a sieve and it’s only been a week.

    The sad thing is, the Democrats will probably name good people, because they care about their country. Then it will screw everything up and blame it on the personnel the Democrats recommended.

  79. 79
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    He’s lazy, but he’s lovable, we know him like a book
    Anytime he can’t be found, we know just where to look:

    Gone fishin’, there’s a sign upon his door
    Gone fishin’, he ain’t workin’ anymore
    There’s his hoe out in the sun where he left a row half done
    He said “hoein’ ain’t no fun”, he ain’t got no ambition
    Gone fishin’ by a shady wady pool
    I’m wishin’ I could be that kinda fool
    I’d say no more work for mine on my door I’d hang a sign
    Gone fishin’ Instead of just a wishin’

  80. 80
    Schlemazel says:

    I saw he had after I posted. I had hoped he would see my post & link the photo – he is too quick

  81. 81
    hovercraft says:

    Your pictures are beautiful. Thanks for posting them.

  82. 82
    JMG says:

    @Mary G: Obama’s played the guy like a master fisherman. I had a co-worker once whose favorite saying was “in confusion, there is profit.”

  83. 83
    Pogonip says:

    @Aleta: Tick…tick…tick…

    You think Deplorables were angry now, wait till 2018. Their fury has already swept a lot of Democrats out to sea. In 2018, Republicans will follow.

    Hey, maybe the 3rd party I attempted to join will actually exist someplace besides Facebook! (i say “attempted to join” because I filled out the comment form explaining I do not and will not use Facebook and asking for some other way to join. Got back a canned message inviting me to join a privare group on…Facebook.)

  84. 84
  85. 85
    John Revolta says:

    I mean, where has everyone been the past decade?

    Not West Virginia?

    (The fruit, so low it hangs)

  86. 86
  87. 87
    Chris says:


    That is EXACTLY what I’ve been saying.

    Fuck their “economic anxiety.” They’re destroying my health insurance.

  88. 88
    NotMax says:


    Every one you take out negates sea level rise just a teeny tiny bit.


  89. 89
    Mothra says:

    John Cole- We have county mayors here in Tennessee! Seriously, that is their title.

  90. 90
    hovercraft says:


    Trump will soon have Presidential pardoning powers.

    An even more cheery one would be if Obama pardoned a huge number of non violent drug offenders on his way out the door, as a final fuck you to the new law and order shit heads. It would be the right thing to do because the sentencing was too harsh, but it would have the added bonus of pissing the assholes off.

  91. 91
    Mary G says:

    @Ohio Mom: @lollipopguild: @Schlemazel: The woman whose post originally dissed our FLOTUS has already chosen, or more likely been forced, to resign.

    But I was thinking about the math. The agency’s whole budget is $360,000. She got $83,000, leaving $277,000 left over for the other 191 employees. That’s only $1,450 or so each, never mind the poor people who are supposed to be getting help. Sounds like the whole thing is a scam.

  92. 92
    JMG says:

    He should pardon Trump and all members of his family for past acts as he goes out the door. That’d be the troll supreme.

  93. 93
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Mary G:

    For perspective, it’s currently 65 days until Inauguration Day. So basically the wheels come off the wagon by March 1st.

  94. 94
    Mary G says:

    @raven: The light in that photo is phenomenal, and Bohdi looks so content to receive the ball. You got a great shot of it mid-air.

  95. 95
    NotMax says:


    Ditto for Hawaii. County councils, county mayors.

  96. 96
    WaterGirl says:

    @raven: That’s beautiful, raven!

  97. 97
    raven says:

    @Mary G: The golden hour

  98. 98
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    What a great shot! Love the concentrated focus on the Bohdi’s face.

  99. 99
    Aleta says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: ‘presidential’ pardon is at least 6 months away

  100. 100

    @Fair Economist:

    Seriously, a 10-fold drop in population? That’s unbelievable.

    It’s a bit of an exaggeration, though the truth is bad enough. Per Wikipedia, the census population topped out just under 100,000 in 1950. It had dropped to 72,000 by 1960 and 51,000 by 1970. It has since continued to decline and is now estimated at just under 20,000. So it’s dropped “only” 5x over the past 65 years, which is still enough to be devastating. I don’t know what you can do to deal with that kind of collapse.

  101. 101
    Mnemosyne says:


    I’m prepared to hear the left-wing theory of the case on why people voted for Trump that voted for Obama in 2012.

    Celebrity. Some people are stupid enough to want to vote for celebrities — see also Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jesse Ventura.

  102. 102
    NotMax says:

    Sherrod Brown just came out on Hayes’ show in support of you know who renegotiating NAFTA.

  103. 103
    Schlemazel says:

    Republicans out but replaced with what? Certainly not liberals, they are evil.

    I predicted back in Boy Blunders admin that morons would pick an outsider demagogue & when he failed they would be ripe for a real fascist and take to armed violence to get him to power. Obama gave me hope that this would change but I think we are back on track

  104. 104
    jake the antisoshul soshulist says:

    White people have been embarrassing me for over 50 years. I don’t expect it to stop before I die.

  105. 105
    WaterGirl says:

    I just read some good news in my email that:

    International anarcho-terrorist money man George Soros is funding domestic terrorism organizations like MoveOn.org and Black Lives Matter to try to stage a leftist uprising.

    Maybe there is hope after all. :-)

    P.S. I had no idea that MoveOn and BLM were terrorist groups. When did that happen?

  106. 106
    Schlemazel says:

    @John Revolta:
    True, nobody lives there & nice people avoid it. ;)

  107. 107
    MomSense says:

    TPP renegotiated NAFTA.

    Fuck I’m pissed at the Democrats for buying into this con. You cannot work with him, cannot normalize this monster. Jesus.

  108. 108
    Baud says:

    @NotMax: Does anyone have a clue as to how it would be renegotiated?

  109. 109
    lamh36 says:

    LMAO at the deplorables trying to bring up RFK…being shot down…it was done in ’67, basically a direct response to stop appt like with RFK..

    Law expressly prohibits hiring your son-in-law: One of Trump’s first acts will be to try and get around it so Kushner can get clearance

  110. 110
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Mary G:

    I have a feeling that Obama staffers have been given tacit (if not explicit) permission to leak.

  111. 111
    Baud says:

    @MomSense: There you go. They’ll enact TPP and call it NAFTA reform.

  112. 112

    I don’t know, man. I don’t think it’s so much that he’s normalized it, as that he’s brought it out into the open. And, as loathsome as these shitbags are, maybe it’s better to have all this shit out festering in the sunlight, rather than out of sight.

  113. 113
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    @ ‘presidential’ pardon is at least 6 months away

    I’m just interested in how many months away is ‘presidential,’ period. Not sure it’s going to happen with this one.

  114. 114
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Mary G: Mea culpa, sloppy reading on my part. It was the idea that I could have a chance to see some karma in action that excited me so. But yes, those numbers don’t add up. Could be the reporter’s fault for getting them wrong.

  115. 115

    Shit like this post is why I get so enraged when people say we’re “slut-shaming” for posting that nude picture of Melania Trump. It’s not slut-shaming, it’s revealing hypocrisy. Remember when Michelle Obama’s bare arms were the worst thing EVER? And Melania posed nude, grabbing her own crotch. Yes, it was years ago, yes she was a model. Yes if my body looked like that, I’d probably be walking everywhere naked. That’s not the fucking point. Republican hypocrisy knows no bounds and I’m not about to let it go unchallenged.

    ALSO: I doubt ANY female Democratic politician would be elected dog catcher, let alone become First Lady, if she had done nude pictures like Melania Trump’s. This Republican Rules shit is waaay old and I’m way too old to tolerate it anymore.

  116. 116
    SFAW says:


    Their fury has already swept a lot of Democrats out to sea. In 2018, Republicans will follow.

    Right. Because all those angry and economically anxious voters will make a judicious assessment of their own financial health (or whatever), and follow that thought to it’s logical conclusion, and place the blame where they believe it belongs, then vote accordingly.

    So I’m thinking the House will end up being 275 R, 160 D, and the Senate 65 R, 35 D+I

    You heard it here first.

    PS: This assumes we’re all still here, that 2018 elections are actually held, etc.

  117. 117
    Schlemazel says:

    I assume you get the parties together & say “We don’t like this & demand it be changed” They can all then argue for what they want. If it fails I suppose the US could unilaterally rip it up but man that would be dangerous. My guess is Trump would get tolled by superior negotiators & the final agreement would be worse while he crowed about his big win

  118. 118
    Jeffro says:


    Thats the first thing I thought. Those poor women, so frightened for their economic future. The Dems need to work harder to win these people over

    omg that was funny (and dry! had to read it twice ;)

  119. 119
    Mary G says:

    @Southern Beale: Yeah, I didn’t get all the way through the Politico article, but it looks like Rudy Ghouliani’s firm has “consulted” for Qatar and all the evil, evil. foreign entities that Hillary was alleged to have granted favors to.

  120. 120
    Adria McDowell (formerly Lurker Extraordinaire says:

    @hovercraft: Well, I don’t think she’s fat. I’m just assuming they find her form attractive but can’t admit it cuz teh blah. Lol. It’s nice to see Michelle still has her original face, too.

    How could you forget the lean, mean, nutcase machine that is Alex Jones in that group!!!

  121. 121
    Baud says:

    @Schlemazel: Right. I meant what doesn’t he like that he will demand be changed.

  122. 122
    Mnemosyne says:


    I suspect Brown of trolling, myself.

  123. 123
    Jeffro says:

    @Big Ole Hound:

    The southern half of Ohio, Indiana and Illinois can join Kentucky, West Virginia and Tennessee as the holders of this wonderful belief and no amount of reason will ever change it as the idea of white supremacy is indoctrinated from birth.

    Don’t forget the southwest tip of Virginia, too. Actually, in addition to not forgetting it, would you mind taking it off of Virginia completely? It screws up our politics something awful.

    Anyway, god bless the Appalachian Mountains and those good, sturdy Scots-Irish folks. Speaking of, has anyone heard from Jim Webb lately? I’m dying to hear his take on all of this economic anxiety.

  124. 124
    SFAW says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    don’t know, man. I don’t think it’s so much that he’s normalized it, as that he’s brought it out into the open.

    Given the outcome of the election, given the prominent position of Bannon, given the unwillingness of the MSM to scream RACIST every fucking day, given the post-election spike in racial attacks — it say that’s pretty damn normalized. About the only thing Trump DIDN’T do was be seen with KKKers in robes.

  125. 125
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    Thanks for the FB link. I agree with the article. I’m checking FB quietly and occasionally, but am not initiating, or reacting, or commenting at all right now. But I appreciate your knowing that I’d be interested in seeing that.

  126. 126
    Schlemazel says:

    I think M^4 really deserves the kudos but thanks. I have to try to bring some laughs because I know I can be a little black ray of darkshine in the world.

  127. 127
    lamh36 says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: ok…I link alot…lol. which FB link was that…

    ETA: oh wait, I forget who’s on my FB and who not…lol

  128. 128
    Comrade Colette Collaboratrice says:

    @Roger Moore:

    So it’s dropped “only” 5x over the past 65 years, which is still enough to be devastating. I don’t know what you can do to deal with that kind of collapse.

    Pull back to the Forum and Capitoline and abandon everything across the Tiber?

  129. 129
    khead says:


    Anyone that believes their vote can be flipped with an “economic anxiety argument” without abandoning pretty much every other plank of modern day liberalism (especially when it comes to social, legal, and cultural concerns of blacks and browns) are basically lying to themselves.

    I agree with this. It’s non-negotiable. I’m trying to think about ways to NOT address their “economic concerns” and still win.

  130. 130
    lamh36 says:


    So everyone is clear that Trump’s tax plan doesn’t allow single parents to file as head-of-household anymore right?”

    Donald Trump’s Tax Plan Would Hit Single Parents Hard

  131. 131
    gene108 says:


    Why not? He is going to be President. He gets to try to renegotiate NAFTA. I doubt he will make it so jobs come back to the USA and rural America.

    And when he fails, I hope people notice.

  132. 132
    Schlemazel says:

    Oh, well thats different. He does not like that US firms have move manufacturing to Mexico. He will demand that stop by . . . ah . . . well . . . something-something mumble, wave hands MAKE MURIKA GRATE!

  133. 133
    jacy says:


    This is actually what got one friend who voted for Trump to wake up. When she realized her taxes were going up. Now she’s upset. (Ironic, because her lesbian daughter is my son’s best friend, but that wasn’t enough….)

  134. 134
    Adria McDowell (formerly Lurker Extraordinaire says:

    @SFAW: They’ll be with him on Inauguration Day.

    @lamh36: That is beyond fucked up.

  135. 135
    dogwood says:

    I stay out of these free trade discussions because they seem more about ideology and proving liberal cred than much else. What has never been clear to me is how rejecting these deals will change any American’s life. I grew up in a small mining town, populated almost exclusively with WWC. The standard of living in that town has risen consistently over the last 50 years. Same with the community I live in now. Given my location, TPP would actually bring more opportunities to the region. The short period in history where American industry had little global competition ended long before NAFTA.

  136. 136


    I meant what doesn’t he like that he will demand be changed.

    The part where obligations are reciprocal. They’re supposed to open their markets to us while we maintain high tariffs to keep them out.

  137. 137
    rikyrah says:

    Jason Miller ‏@longwall26 5h5 hours ago

    Bannon: I’m a racist
    Bannon’s supporters: He’s a racist
    Bannon’s opponents: He’s a racist
    Media: Is Steve Bannon a Racist? Critics Disagree

  138. 138
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    It just get worse and worse….

    ‏@ kerpen
    Just got tip that DANA ROHRABACHER is being vetted as potential fallback SecState if Rudy ethics issue conflicts him out.

  139. 139
    gene108 says:


    I agree with this. It’s non-negotiable. I’m trying to think about ways to NOT address their “economic concerns” and still win.

    I think Democrats can still win the Presidency, if they can field the right candidate. A lot of people stayed home or did not vote for President, but did vote for downticket races, compared to 2012.. There are votes to be had.

    The real issue is how to win back state houses and governorships in states that seem to have jettisoned Democrats at every level.

    I do not know what each state needs to do to get these back, but if we take back states, we can undo voter ID laws and gerrymandered districts.

  140. 140
    Baud says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    if Rudy ethics issue conflicts him out.


  141. 141
    NotMax says:


    Not trolling when his exact quote of what he told you know who’s people was “Count on me” for that.

    The (for lack of a better term) Blue Wall of “No!” is revealed as constructed of Jell-O.

    Hayes let it slide by unremarked, but the mangy cat is out of the bag.

  142. 142
    Baud says:

    @NotMax: It seems like the most progressive senators are caving first.

  143. 143
  144. 144
    rikyrah says:

    Donald Trump’s Tax Plan Would Hit Single Parents Hard

    Three major changes make Trump’s plan particularly hard on single parents.

    First, he would eliminate the head-of-household filing status, thus requiring single parents to file as individuals. By itself, that boosts tax rates for single parents at most income ranges.

    Second, although Trump would boost the standard deduction, he would eliminate personal and dependent exemptions, raising taxable income for all single parents who do not itemize.

  145. 145
    Baud says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Maybe. But the real reason he doesn’t get it will have nothing to do with ethics.

  146. 146
    Baud says:

    @rikyrah: I’m sorry, what does that have to do with Hillary’s emails again?

  147. 147
    Jeffro says:


    I’m prepared to hear the left-wing theory of the case on why people voted for Trump that voted for Obama in 2012. It was statistically small but it looks like it made a crucial difference in the rust belt and we shouldn’t ignore how and why that happened. However every other cohort of the Trump voter was and is the same voter that pulled the lever for W, McCain, Romney and now Trump. Those voters can go fuck themselves.

    Personally, I doubt there were very many folks who voted for Obama in 2012 that voted for Trump in 2016. I think some Rs who voted for Obama in 2008 got turned off after Obamacare or whatever excuse was convenient (I’ve even heard the “beer summit” as a major turnoff, no joke) to bring them back to their GOP programming

    That would explain some of the drop off of a few million folks for Obama from 2008 to 2012. They melted away a bit in 2012 (as did some of our own D voters) and made it a closer election. In 2016, some more of our folks dropped off, and some more of theirs may have dropped out too, but other infrequent R voters turned out something fierce, especially in the Rust Belt. And there we have it.

    Put me on TV, I’ll do it for free.

  148. 148
    Jeffro says:


    An even more cheery one would be if Obama pardoned a huge number of non violent drug offenders on his way out the door, as a final fuck you to the new law and order shit heads. It would be the right thing to do because the sentencing was too harsh, but it would have the added bonus of pissing the assholes off.

    Yes all of them – and Hillary too. Just have her say she doesn’t want it and have him say publicly, “too bad”.

  149. 149
    SFAW says:


    Well, it’s not as if was always a big liberal-supported program. Clinton got it done, but I don’t think liberals were especially thrilled by it. (Of course, my memory might be faulty. Senility sucks.)

  150. 150
    CaseyL says:

    @Chris: @ArchTeryx:
    There is a chance – not much of one, granted – that “repeal and replace” means “re-name ObamaCare TrumpCare and otherwise leave it alone.” I’d be OK with that, and I suspect Obama would be OK with that, too. The important thing is that the program continue, not who it’s named for.

  151. 151
    Jeffro says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I don’t know much about Rohrbacher but I thought earlier today that between Rudy and Bolton, Rudy looked good by comparison.

    This is what they mean by “normalization”, folks. Rudy. Frickin’. Giuliani, just for a second, looked like a satisfactory pick.

    Fortunately I pretty much bleed Democratic blue by this point, but still…it was a tough three seconds there…

  152. 152
    EBT says:

    @Mary G: What makes you think the 191 people getting the 1400 dollars aren’t otherwise needy of it?

  153. 153
    BellyCat says:

    @chris: Hot smoking pig iron. That link you included to Forsetti’s Justice NAILS IT!!!

    (If you haven’t peeked at this, it’s worth the insights provided)

    I grew up in a small (minded) town filled with fetid religious hypocrits and escaping the moment I graduated from high school and moving to a city (for college) was like having a thick plastic bag peeled off my entire epidermis.

    Fuck these holier-than-thou authoritarian bigots and the grifting horse they rode in on. If only there was a way to exclusively serve THEM the triple-decker shit sandwiches they’ve ordered for the next four years (while not realizing that like the apocryphal bottomless “loaves of bread” doled out by Jesus, will be the only thing on the menu for a decade or more.)

    When Obama said he was going to focus on voter reform after he is sprung free, he (not surprisingly) has clearly figured out that there is no changing fundies tiny little minds. Now its time to simply outnumber them at the ballot box.

  154. 154
    SFAW says:

    @Adria McDowell (formerly Lurker Extraordinaire:

    They’ll be with him on Inauguration Day.

    Yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised if that actually happened.

  155. 155
    Peale says:

    @NotMax: I don’t have a problem with it. Look, at lot of OUR voters said they want to destroy neoliberalism and want trade deals blocked. And a lot of voters in Sherrod Brown’s state said they wanted that too. I don’t like it, because, yeah, there’s quite a bit of racism in singling out the poorest member of the agreement and trying to get them to be even poorer, forgetting that Canada seemed to gain quite a bit of US auto industry and natural resources jobs out of the deal, too. It bothers me a great deal that he wants to “punish” Mexico.

    Anyway, I don’t think these negotiations will go anywhere. There are too many people trading too much with the 10th largest economy in the world and by far our biggest trading partner who isn’t China. NAFTA actually worked after years of adjustment, a lot of which hit Mexico hard, which is why there were so many people leaving the countryside to migrate in the 1990s. Then when the damn factories were supposed to start coming, the multinationals fell in love with China instead. Frankly, I think NAFTA worked.

    Mexico negotiated its own trade deals with most of the big economies in Europe and in much of Latin America so it held an advantaged place in the global supply chain for manufacturing so that EU and Asian companies also started setting up plants there to get around the fact that the US stopped negotiating trade deals for a decade while it chased terrorists around the globe. Good for them.

    I really don’t think these negotiations will yield much. Trump doesn’t have time to do them himself, but if he jumps into them, LOL. They are trade deals, not business deals, and if he tries to negotiate what the public wants, well that’s not going to work. We want Mexico to buy our goods and send nothing back, are threatening to round up its citizens in this country and put them in prisons, threaten to start dropping bombs from drones. Fire away. Mexico doesn’t “own” those factories and can’t really order them to leave and if they do leave it can’t demand that they go to Indianapolis.

  156. 156

    Kris Kobach’s name is being floated for AG. Read and weep.

  157. 157
    SFAW says:


    Yes all of them – and Hillary too.

    I was thinking approximately the same thing. I like your follow-up, re: “I didn’t want him to do it.”

  158. 158
    Baud says:

    @SFAW: No, but I thought the push was to not work with Trump.

  159. 159
    Corner Stone says:

    @Baud: …emails? **sniff** **sniff**…did you say … emails? BECAUSE EMAILS!!

  160. 160
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Oh just fuck me now.

  161. 161
    NotMax says:


    Understand it is customary to grant deference and a honeymoon period to a newly installed president.

    Customary is non-operative.

    This is not a normal person. By dint of his utterances and the not normal people he chooses to be surrounded and counseled by he has abrogated the privilege of being treated normally.

    Sen. Brown seemed not to grok that.

  162. 162
    Jeffro says:


    The important thing is that the program continue, not who it’s named for.

    Good luck with that, ’cause they’re going well beyond Obamacare repeal: they’re going to phase out Medicare and Medicaid, too.

  163. 163
    Schlemazel says:

    I sent a note to my reps, Ellison, Franken and whatser name reminding them that the GOP Congressmen & Senators met in January of 08 to agree and announce that their job was to obstruct Obama on anything and everything he wanted to do. I asked them when we could expect the Dems to do this now.

  164. 164
    NotMax says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Guessing Bob Dornan didn’t pick up the phone.

  165. 165
    rikyrah says:

    Bradd JaffyVerified account
    NBC’s @mitchellreports: Trump team asked that Kushner be designated to attend Presidential Daily Briefings once he gets top secret clearance

  166. 166
    Jeffro says:


    I was thinking approximately the same thing. I like your follow-up, re: “I didn’t want him to do it.”

    Only way to do it. She protests her innocence, Obama takes the heat on his way out but…what can you do, right? It’s a presidential pardon. Maybe he even throws some shade (as the kids say) and notes that while he wouldn’t normally pardon an innocent person, Hillary’s been persecuted beyond all reason and he’s taking as a first step towards restoring some norms and the rule of law in this country.

  167. 167
    Corner Stone says:

    @Jeffro: I pray no pardon is ever offered, and if it is she flips the double rods at it.
    I hope she gets dragged in front of the religious tribunal and tossed into the lake. So we can see for once and all if she weighs the same as a duck.

  168. 168
    Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap says:

    @rikyrah: Guess I’ll have that arsenic cocktail now then….

  169. 169
    NotMax says:


    January of ’09.


  170. 170
    Corner Stone says:

    @Jeffro: Bullshit.

  171. 171
    Betty Cracker says:

    @raven: Damn, that’s a big ole fish! 🐟🐠🐟🐠

  172. 172
    hovercraft says:

    Well that’s just great, all these fucking assholes thinking that the Shitgibbon will do anything he said he will are just pathetic, the NY Times had a piece just this morning pointing that it’s already in the process of walking everything back.

    Trump Campaign’s Easy Answers Confront Hard Reality

    has not yet clarified his promises on trade, but most experts say it will be very hard to simply walk away from Nafta and impose a 45 percent tariff against imports from China. “In an age of global supply chains,” said Dani Rodrik of the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, “you cannot take a chain saw to trade agreements and not end up cutting your foot off.”…..

    Nafta may not be the best agreement in the world; China certainly cheats. But igniting trade wars with the nation’s biggest trading partners would not improve the livelihoods of America’s working class…..

    ……the frustrated working-class voters who cast their vote for Mr. Trump are likely to remain as frustrated as ever: stuck with insufficient education in a world of low growth and diminishing opportunity. Maybe they will figure out that most of the industrial jobs they lost are gone for good, that protectionism can’t bring them back, and that the main driver of their plight is technological change…….

    …..“What happens when Trump realizes he cannot adequately respond to the expectations he has raised?” he asked. “Does he respond to economic failure like all populists around the world do — by further polarizing the nation and deepening divisions based on identity? And what does that do the quality of our democracy?”

    Sherrod is a good progressive, but the notion that protectionism can roll back globalization is bullshit. We need to come up with real solutions, shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted makes no sense at all, it just sets people up for even bigger disappointments.

  173. 173
    MomSense says:


    I completely agree with you.

  174. 174
    NotMax says:


    attend Presidential Daily Briefings

    Except on Saturdays.

  175. 175
    Baud says:


    And what does that do the quality of our democracy?”


  176. 176
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Jeffro: No. If we are now a country that puts political rivals on trial, then we should be open about it.

  177. 177
    misterpuff says:

    Trumpworld: Cutting your nose off to spite elite smug libruls, Part XXX +

    I am currently on a business trip in a deeply rural area of Michigan. I encountered a health care worker of Mideastern extract. I had my bags in the elevator, so he asked me if I was checking out. I said just packing my car for the trip tomorrow back to Chicago. Ah, he replied, a resident of Illinois a Democratic state and then he asked me if I voted for Hillary. I said I did. He gave me a thumbs up and then said maybe they can overturn in the Electoral College. I said I doubt it but we will survive. But as I packed my car, I realized perhaps his life could be upended and the people he serves, mostly white god-fearing people might have voted to make that happen.
    In many rural areas, the medical care is provided by immigrant doctors from India, Pakistan and other English speaking former colonies. if Muslim or immigrant xenophobia drives them out, the good farmers of the Thumb may have to drive hours to get good medical care. Sad!
    This sux.

  178. 178
    MomSense says:


    Now that’s a fish!

  179. 179
    SFAW says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Kris Kobach’s name is being floated for AG. Read and weep.

    I realize floating a name and actually nominating someone are two different things, but has there been ANY name floated so far for ANY position that isn’t a complete fucking asshole? We got Kobach, Rudy, Bannon, Bolton, Priebus, Rohrabacher, the EPA guy.

    And if Heydrich were still alive, Trump could float his name for Obergruppenfuehrer Senior Group Leader; he and Kushner could trade stories about being self-hating Jews, and he and Bannon could chat about various Solutions. [Yeah, I guess it’s a non-sequitur.]

  180. 180
    Ruckus says:

    @Это курам на смех:
    The Shit-Gibbon lover at work gets the cold shoulder now. He said good morning today, I basically ignored him. My boss suggested that I set up a job and show him how to run it. I almost told him, not even if it means my job. Instead I told him the guy wasn’t capable. I’ve said 2 words to him in the last week, both involved work. He gets nothing else. I’m not sure he understands why.

  181. 181
    Jeffro says:

    @Corner Stone: I hear you…I’m just not up for letting this drag out in yet another show trial, much less a sentence of any kind. She can flip Obama the bird while he’s busy flipping it to the GOP.

  182. 182
    Davebo says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Yes, because earning > $83,000 per year puts at the bottom of the rung in bumfuck West Virginia.

  183. 183
    dogwood says:

    Thanks for that post. There has always been something troubling about this populist talk about sending jobs to Mexico or China, but no “Canada is taking our jobs” outrage.

  184. 184
    chelsea530 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Grrr. If I hear that once more, I’m going to scream even louder.

    Thanks, John Cole, for keeping this going. We need to call it out every single time it happens. Take the power out of empowerment of racism, bigotry, and misogyny.

  185. 185
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:


    Pose nude and illegally immigrate = Classy

    I think the correct reply to Pamela on facebook is “I am sorry, I was to busy jerking it to Ivana’s naked pictures”

  186. 186

    @hovercraft: What we need is labor to have a seat at the table, we need unions and a union representative on the board of directors, like they do in Germany and other Scandinavian countries. Protectionism is a fool’s errand.

  187. 187
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Archon: I’ve sought out articles on Rust Belt voters who flipped, and the explanations people surveyed gave were inane crap like “he’s a straight talker,” and “we need a change,” blah blah blah. We might just have to face the fact that these voters are rando nitwits who swing back and forth for no good reason.

  188. 188
    Jeffro says:


    What happens when Trump realizes he cannot adequately respond to the expectations he has raised?” he asked. “Does he respond to economic failure like all populists around the world do — by further polarizing the nation and deepening divisions based on identity? And what does that do the quality of our democracy?”

    I love Rodrik’s questions – and Trump probably does too:
    “Does he care about economic failure” – of course not, he’ll be the last person touched by it.
    “Does he care about further polarization and deepening divisions” – of course not, he thrives on it.
    “And what does that do to the quality of our democracy?” – I have a funny feeling this is the whole point.

    Trump (and Bannon, and Giuliani, and Bolton, and all the other psychos being drawn into this on that side) think that the world is crappy and cynical and shit, when all evidence would tell a normal person otherwise. The whole point of this is power for them, which means the end of democratic rule.

  189. 189
    Kropadope says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: I appreciate that turnabout is fair play and all, but Melania didn’t make the statements and there’s nothing wrong with posing naked for a camera.

  190. 190
    SFAW says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    No. If we are now a country that puts political rivals on trial, then we should be open about it.

    And what happens when she gets convicted? As in, what is the response you anticipate?

    ETA: To clarify: the response of persons not wanting her shot/hung/castrated/disemboweled.

  191. 191
    louc says:

    @Southern Beale: I have to confess when I read that quote, my reaction was Melania, “dignified!?” really? because all I could think of was that nude shot.

  192. 192
    Corner Stone says:

    @Jeffro: WTF? What do you mean “another show trial”?
    Fuck the idea that HRC hides behind anything and that Obama cloaks her in some way.
    Are you fucking stupid? If Obama did that they would target him and put him on trial. That may happen anyway. Let HRC get dragged before some HUAC bullshit. She can take it. She would probably relish it.
    No hiding. Let’s see these fucking cowards try it on.

  193. 193
    Corner Stone says:

    It’s easy for me to so bravely put HRC forth for trial. I get that. But I honestly think she would shine if that happened, and be a beacon unlike anyone else except PBO in a similar situation.

  194. 194
    Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap says:

    @Betty Cracker: This would explain some of the tv shows on my DVR schedule.

  195. 195
    Aleta says:

    (WaPo) Fahrenthold and Sellers, examples of how Bannon manipulated Trump to shape him as a candidate.

    The clearest public sense of how the two plan to work together — and what policies Bannon will probably try to push — came over the course of nine one-on-one interviews on Bannon’s radio show between November 2015 and June of this year.

    In those exchanges, a dynamic emerged, with Bannon often coaxing Trump to agree to his viewpoint, whether on climate change, foreign policy or the need to take on Republican leaders in Congress.

    At times, Bannon seemed to coach Trump to soften the harder edges of his message, to make it more palatable to a broader audience, while in other cases he pushed Trump to take tougher positions. He flattered Trump, praising his negotiating skills and the size of his campaign crowds.

    The flattery often came before a leading question.
    Last December, Bannon told Trump that, “I know you’re a student of military history.” Then, he laid out a case for questioning the U.S. alliance with Turkey, a member of NATO since the 1950s.
    Wasn’t it true, Bannon asked, that the situation was a bit like the web of treaties that connected European countries before World War I?

    “People were locked into these treaties. . . . It led to the beginning of the bloodiest century in mankind’s history,” Bannon said. He said that Turkey had changed since it joined NATO, turning to Islamism under President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. What if Turkey was drawn into a broader conflict in Syria, perhaps with Russia?

    “This is not something, Steve, that you want to end up in World War III over,” Trump said.

    In other cases, Bannon would use his questions to frame policy choices — and then ask Trump if he agreed with the frame and the choice. In the December interview, Bannon presented the problems of climate change and the Islamic State as a binary option — offering Trump, in effect, the choice of fighting one or the other.

    “Do you agree with the pope and President Obama that [climate change] is absolutely a path to global suicide, if specific deals are not cut in Paris, versus focusing on radical Islam?” Bannonasked, referring to the negotiations that eventually led to a global climate agreement in Paris last year.

    Trump said that what other people considered to be climate change was probably just weather. Radical Islam should be the focus.

    On issues ranging from trade to slowing Muslim immigration, Bannon said, “What [Ryan] wants is for you to drop those policies. Are you prepared to do that for unity?” When Trump later began to say it would be “better if we do get together,” Bannon interrupted, saying that Ryan’s version of unity would represent “a collapse of what you ran on and a collapse on what [voters] backed you on.”

    “Well, you can’t do that,” responded Trump.

    (Hoping this kind of article will cause another sinkhole between the swamp monster and his bog demons.)

  196. 196

    Isn’t there enough awful stuff going on without imagining the worst and going on and on about it. I think I may have to quit reading Balloon Juice also.

  197. 197
    Adria McDowell (formerly Lurker Extraordinaire says:

    @Kropadope: No, there’s not, and I really don’t care, but the hypocrisy needs to be called out.

    Personally, I think Melania wants nothing more than to return to NYC with her son and spend what little money Cantaloupe Caligula has. Can’t say I blame her.

  198. 198
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @SFAW: Do you mean am I expecting mass protest marches and the like? No, I am not. But I want to know where we stand. Are we now a fascist country and, if so, are people okay with it?

  199. 199
    Kropadope says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    What we need is labor to have a seat at the table, we need unions and a union representative on the board of directors, like they do in Germany and other Scandinavian countries.

    I think a good step on the way there would be to have fewer Republican governors and presidents on capital’s side making it difficult for labor to freely assemble.

  200. 200
    Jeffro says:


    I realize floating a name and actually nominating someone are two different things, but has there been ANY name floated so far for ANY position that isn’t a complete fucking asshole?

    Well yeah, if you get to 70 and have no friends and no one even trusts you in your own line of work, then these are the kind of people who gravitate towards you: people who have no qualms associating with such a soulless orange toad.

  201. 201

    @SFAW: What do you think you are achieving with your hyperbole?

  202. 202
    Schlemazel says:

    crap, you are right now I have to write them again

  203. 203
    PPCLI says:

    @WaterGirl: Remember when MoveOn.org put out the ad that called Petraeus “Betray-us”?

    That was worse than the Oklahoma City Bombing.

  204. 204
    Mike in NC says:

    Still chuckling over the lead on tonight’s NBC Nightly News: “Trump Transition in Turmoil”. This is the next four fucking years, folks. Even Putin is despondent.

  205. 205
    Suzanne says:

    I drove through West by God Virginia once. It was enough.

    There are so many places with beautiful landscape and hideous people. It’s tragic.

  206. 206
    Barbara says:

    @Jeffro: A lot of people might be saying no. This is not an episode of Celebrity Apprentice where people will do anything to jump start a dormant career. Think back to the list of convention speakers and imagine the problem multiplied by a factor of 1000.

  207. 207
    Kropadope says:


    And what happens when she gets convicted? As in, what is the response you anticipate?

    You mean “if” and I think if they have a real trial with a truly fair jury, there’s no way she gets convicted. What she did was inadvisable, it was not illegal. Furthermore, it was a workaround to outdated government communications infrastructure and policy.

    Where the focus on this should be is that our government’s tech should be state of the art. Better for user-friendliness, archiving concerns, and security alike.

  208. 208
    SFAW says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I don’t know if we’re a fascist country, but I know — well, believe — that about half the country would be OK with a conviction after a show trial. Actually, a too-large number would be OK with the Cardassian judicial process (if I remember my ST correctly).

    [If I recall: Cardassians started the process with a declaration of guilt, and then proceeded to show why the accused was guilty.]

  209. 209
    Peale says:

    @SFAW: Dimon for Treasury. Yes its a big banker, but given what it COULD be. At least he hasn’t spent the last eight years running around the country complaining about Obama, throwing up wild accusations that we’re living in Weimar! And unlike the Mercers, isn’t going to advocate for a return to the gold standard. He actually understands that it is kind of important to not default, doesn’t seem like he’d be a tool of Putin, and likes the dollar as the global reserve currency.

  210. 210
    Barbara says:

    @Peale: Dimon is sane and smart. It could have been Ron Paul.

  211. 211
    dogwood says:

    The end of that piece where it discusses the populist who retains power by polarizing a nation along the lines of identity is what is scaring me the most right now. If we were to become a 2 party system where one party is exclusively white and the other 80-85% non white we will be in more trouble than we can imagine right now. Because under systems like that policy is irrelevant, only identity matters. And even if there are policy arguments to be had, the same side with it’s reliable voting base will always win the day.

  212. 212
    chelsea530 says:

    @Peale: Isn’t he the one who wore POTUS cufflinks when Obama called Wall Street banksters to the White House in 2009 after the near-financial meltdown?

  213. 213
    SFAW says:


    No, I meant “when,” thanks. The only trial I’d anticipate is some Congressional BS, with a dash of Comey thrown in there, and they’d find a way to fuck her over yet again.

    I figure they’d find some part of the Patriot Act that they’d claim she violated — after all, her e-mails were worse than the Rosenbergs, Jonathan Pollard, Mohammad Atta, Aldrich Ames, and Kim Philby combined — and go after her that way.

    You’re fucking right I’m cynical.

    ETA: I also expect them to talk about the hundreds or thousands of times her private server was hacked.

  214. 214
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @SFAW: I also agree with Corner Stone that she would handle herself perfectly if it happened.

  215. 215
    ArchTeryx says:

    @Jeffro: Exactly why I’m updating my will and making my peace. It almost sounds too much like a bad Tom and Jerry cartoon, but it’s all too real for me.

  216. 216
    Citizen Alan says:


    I’m honestly hoping a lot of the Deplorables will be dead or surrendered to despair once the Zombie Eyed Granny Starver pinches their benefits.

  217. 217
    Kayla Rudbek says:

    @lamh36: God only knows who they’ll try to put in charge of th IRS and the Patent & Trademark Office

  218. 218
    SFAW says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I also agree with Corner Stone that she would handle herself perfectly if it happened.

    Not that it makes any difference, but I absolutely agree. She did great during that marathon session. But outside of political junkies like (some of) us here, who really knew about that?

    And the point is not whether she is capable of defending herself, it’s that in a show trial, it won’t matter.

    Look, a large part of me can’t believe they’re even considering pursuing this, given that they got the result they wanted, one week ago. But up until a week ago, a large part of me couldn’t believe that there were that many fucked-up voters, and we see where that got me.

  219. 219
    Monala says:

    @Mary G: I didn’t read that as their whole budget is $360,000, just that $360,000 of their budget comes from government grants. Most federal grants expect you to match the grant amount with private dollars from foundations, individual donors, maybe local businesses. Their total budget was probably a great deal larger. And since you have to be audited to receive government grants, somebody is keeping tabs on them.

    ETA: the rest of your points are sound. I work for one of the larger nonprofits in a mid-size West Coast city, and we probably receive $360,000 in government grants, while serving tens of thousands of clients each year.

  220. 220
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @SFAW: They aren’t going to gin up a Soviet style show trial. Any trial would be in a regular US court with a judge and jury.

  221. 221
    dogwood says:

    This has been a weird day for me, I hear about Jaime Dimon and feel a bit relieved. Only nice story I see today? Goeorge and Laura go to the local SPCA and bring home a cute dog.

  222. 222
    Ian says:


    Lets see what we can do to make sure that Trump voters suffer worse than those who do not deserve to be hurt.

    We are better than that.

  223. 223
    SFAW says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I guess that’s the other half (or flip side) of what irks me — that she’d even have to go through one (show or otherwise) in the first place.

    If I believed in a Just God, I would probably be less annoyed about this bullshit.

    OK, time to get back to work.

  224. 224
    SFAW says:


    We are better than that.

    Yes, and look where it’s gotten us.

  225. 225
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    Hey I’m from around there know several people in the Ramsays and Whalings families. (Not the two women themselves.)

    Let’s just say I ain’t real surprised by any of this.

  226. 226
    debbie says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Have the GOOPERS even been specific about why she’d be tried? Benghazi, emails, what?

  227. 227
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @debbie: That’s the whole thing. They don’t actually have anything. A pardon is saying that there really was something in there. There never was.

  228. 228
    PPCLI says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Don’t underestimate how far down that road even “respectable” Republicans have gone. Don Seligman is in jail. And when US District Attorneys were being fired for refusing to launch politically motivated charges, I didn’t hear many Republicans raising hell. The question at issue now is just how sweeping they want to be.

  229. 229
    catclub says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: ANY trial will be continuing catnip and distraction for the press. Plus, assuming she is not convicted, Trump will claim that the system is still rigged. PLus, campaign promise fulfilled!

  230. 230
    debbie says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Didn’t think so, but wasn’t sure I hadn’t missed something. I would like her to go through the process, if only to prove their lunatic idiocy. Relatives I’d thought were smarter are calling for her prosecution, which is killing me.

  231. 231
    Darkrose says:

    @raven: Oh, very cool. He seems so excited..

  232. 232
    PPCLI says:

    @debbie: they were talking about impeaching Obama from the moment he was elected, and they had even less than they have on Hillary.

  233. 233
    Amaranthine RBG says:


    I’ve seen talk about the Clinton foundation and influence peddling as Sec. of State.

    Oh, and there’s no statute of limitations on her murder of Vince Foster and 47 other people, so there’s that, too.

  234. 234
    Omnes Omnibus says:


    Don’t underestimate how far down that road even “respectable” Republicans have gone.

    I am not underestimating anything. I want to know where we stand as a country. It will affect what I do and how I do it.

  235. 235
    dogwood says:

    I’ll worry about the Clinton trial when and if it happens. Right now these fascists can’t even organize a transition properly. And transitions are actually easier than they used to be because in one of their decent moments the Bush administration pushed through a completely bi-partisan law that made the process more efficient

  236. 236
    sukabi says:

    @Schlemazel: sooooo, he’s finally going to have all his crap made in the US instead of China and Mexico?

    Not bloody likely.

  237. 237
    Ian says:

    A month late, no?

  238. 238
    boatboy_srq says:

    @Aleta: This is “good business” as illustrated by various Trump enterprises. You’re actually surprised?

  239. 239
    sukabi says:

    @EBT: she was talking about the $83,000 yearly salary and the remainder of the money being divided between 191 other employees for the year…pretty sure even in west virginia that’s not enough to get you through 1 month, let alne a year.

  240. 240
    boatboy_srq says:

    What struck me was the oh-so-literate “a Ape in heels.” Note the mismatched article. So, Taylor showcased her iggerance along with her bigotry. And don’t give me that “140 characters” BS: there are places where that tweet could have been shortened and still be English (bigoted English, but still a complete sentence with proper grammar that any third-grader ought to know).

  241. 241
  242. 242
    SFAW says:


    See, and I thought white pants/robes were worn only between Memorial Day and Labor Day.

    Thanks, Obama!

  243. 243
    SFAW says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    It will affect what I do and how I do it.

    OK, but I don’t think the Argonauts are going to sign Rodgers anytime soon.

  244. 244
    Fake Irishman says:


    Lot of people on this thread concerned about Sherrod Brown. He’s been lobbying against NAFTA, CAFTA, TPP and any other free trade agreement since he joined Congress in 1992 on the grounds that they tend to gut American manufacturing jobs while leaving those workers in the lurch while enriching their company owners. We can argue around the edges about what free-trade pacts accomplish and are supposed to accomplish, and the merits of TPP vs. NAFTA vs. improvements on both vs. no free trade but he sure as Hell isn’t doing this to cozy up to Trump, who he thinks is a buffoon and an evil, evil man. This is the point where he gestures in his direction before going to the matt on health care, tax cuts, the environment, labor rights and other matters. (Brown famously refused to take his employee health benefits while in Congress and the Senate until the ACA passed in 2010.) He sure as Hell ain’t no racist either. Brown is facing the fight of his life in 2018, and he’s making sure he’s connected with his roots in Ohio (which he never has disconnected himself from.).

    You can check in with front-pager Kay on this point. She’ll back this up.

  245. 245
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @SFAW: Not going anywhere. How public I am about things and such.

  246. 246
    Macbethchick says:


    Howdy, Honus. I’m a former Wetzel resident. I have a love-hate relationship with the place. I’ve always wondered how prominent the sundown towns were in the northern panhandle. My grandfather was a KKK member in Brooke County, busily ridding the Panhandle of those mackerel-snapping Catholics and dagos.

  247. 247
    NotMax says:

    @Fake Irishman

    Not a newcomer to knowing about Brown.

    But this is not the time, the place and the circumstance to give an inch, something he has now eagerly spoken a willingness to do.

  248. 248
    Macbethchick says:

    And for some fucking reason I still haven’t gotten the hang of posting a response to a thread without it looking catti-woncus.

    I recently read an article a friend posted from some faction of FauxNews bemoaning the economic state of Clay County. The old ‘King Coal is our life, blah blah blah, and the EPA commies destroyed us.’ (Thanks, Obama! Dammit, Hillary!) Well since one of those women was the freaking Director of the Clay County Development office, maybe THAT’S why they’re in the toilet.

  249. 249
    SFAW says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Not going anywhere.

    OK, good. I was afraid I’d have to learn French, to be able to talk to you.

  250. 250
    SFAW says:


    How is Brown “giving an inch”? He’s been against NAFTA from the start.

  251. 251
    NotMax says:


    Telling he who shall not be named, in advance, that he can “count on me” doesn’t give it away?

  252. 252
    SFAW says:


    Only if we’re operating on the McConnell/Rethug “Whatever it is, I’m against it” model.

  253. 253
    CaseyL says:

    I don’t understand the willingness to have Hillary face a show trial. The idea horrifies me. I wouldn’t blame the Clintons if the entire family packed up and left the country, found refuge in Ireland or someplace like that.

  254. 254
    cosima says:

    I would like to see BJ return to the civility of the tire rims & anthrax days. I wish John would re-post to help us all feel a bit better.

  255. 255

    […] Balloon Juice comes this story of healing and comity in the age of […]

  256. 256
    workworkwork says:

    @Mary G:

    able-minded Republicans

    Okay, I think I see the problem….

  257. 257
    liberalandlovingit! says:


    That was a great article. And, they are with us, here in Canada.

    Remember when PM Harper killed the communist Canadian Wheat Board?

    They drive around with stickers that say Farmers Feed Cities.
    Yeah, and cities and our taxes support farmers.
    Arrogant white land-owners.
    It’s sickening.

  258. 258
    liberalandlovingit! says:


    I live north of the Great Lakes; they’re at my A.A. meetings.

    Thanks Trump!

  259. 259
    J R in WV says:


    Regarding your McDowell County WV population data, you are incorrect. According to the US Census, there are an est. 19,834 people in McDowell County, and 89% are white while 8.8% are black. Here’s a naked link:


    So you were off by nearly 100% more than your guesstimate on total population count, and much more than that on black population. 38% of the population is living in poverty, though. Which isn’t surprising, but is pretty sad.

    In a previous life I delivered educational TV materials for teachers to the school board there, and in my last career I visited the WV DEP office there several times. You would have to stop talking when a train came through town, which was common then, because the noise was so overwhelming.

    The town is in a very narrow valley, and the RR passes right by the buildings, through tunnels built right there in town. Many abandoned buildings, crumbling away. It was very prosperous back in the 1950s and ’60s, in its own way.

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