We’ll Just Go Ahead and File This Under “White Privilege”

You gotta be fucking kidding me:

Ammon and Ryan Bundy have been found not guilty of conspiracy. Their five co-defendants Jeff Banta, Shawna Cox, David Fry, Kenneth Medenbach and Neil Wampler have all been found not guilty as well.

Jurors were unable to reach a verdict on Ryan Bundy’s theft of government property charge.

The jury returned its verdict after some six weeks of testimony followed by less than six hours deliberations, and the last minute replacement of a juror after an allegation surfaced that he was biased.

The jury was instructed to disregard their previous work and to re-consider the evidence.

I got nothing.

392 replies
  1. 1
    redshirt says:

    Gold trim decision.

  2. 2

    Some of the charges were no-brainer violations… and the jury STILL let them off?!

  3. 3
    NYCMT says:


  4. 4
  5. 5
    chopper says:

    great, now every RW jackhole is going to think about grabbing a gun and ‘occupying’ some federal building.

  6. 6
    mike in dc says:

    Yeah, that’s some Baal-Shite.

  7. 7
    dr. bloor says:

    @NYCMT: Yep. Read a piece on the prosecutor the other day–oozes competence. Looks like there just weren’t twelve people in that jury pool willing to convict white terrori–er, cowboys.

  8. 8
    MomSense says:

    At a loss for words.

  9. 9
    kmeyer the lurker says:

    I want that jury for my upcoming public nervous breakdown.

  10. 10
    Pogonip says:

    @NYCMT: Yes, I agree. And their antics cost you and me about ten million dollars!

  11. 11
    Kryptik says:

    Repeating this from the end of the previous thread since it’s more on-topic here:

    I really want to know the mindset of the jurors when they deliberated and made that call, because….holy fuck, what did the trial demonstrate that would un-damn them considering their own fucking statements and behavior? They literally didn’t hide what the hell they were doing and couched it in sovcit bullshit.

  12. 12
    dr. bloor says:

    @chopper: Frankly, if they do it again in Oregon, let the Patriots have the building and leave it to the fucking locals to clean out the latrines after they get bored.

  13. 13
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    less than six hours deliberations

    Wow. Just wow.

  14. 14
    Mary G says:

    It’s all of a piece with Trump’s “cancel the election and make me president.” Laws don’t mean shit if we say so.

  15. 15
    Baud says:

    I hope we win Oregon.

  16. 16
    Baud says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Wow. So no lone holdout.

  17. 17
    piratedan says:

    my biggest fear is how this will be “interpreted” by anyone else who feels “repressed and oppressed” by electoral system and feels “compelled” to “do something about it”…

    It makes me want to stick that jury with the bill to clean up the refuge. Fine, YOU pay for it.

  18. 18
    Mary G says:

    @chopper: Yeah, lots of yahoos grabbing muskets all over the rural areas of the country.

  19. 19
    JaneE says:

    @Baud: dollars to donuts the hold out was the one replaced for “bias”.

  20. 20
    scott (the other one) says:

    Un. Fucking. Believable.

  21. 21
    Wapiti says:

    Now that’s pretty mind boggling. Clinton’s going to have problems down the road with this. (The seeds were of course sown when the USG didn’t force the issue in Nevada, imho.)

  22. 22
    redshirt says:

    So what happens when the courts and the congress no longer recognize the law?

  23. 23
    dr. bloor says:

    @Baud: We will, for the eighth straight presidential election. The problem is that once you go beyond Portland city limits, you’re basically in Idaho.

  24. 24
    Amanda in the South Bay says:

    @Baud: The last time Oregon voted for a Republican was 1988, so nothing to worry about.

  25. 25
    Kryptik says:


    For all the talk about ‘legislating from the bench’, this seems like as transparent a case of ignoring or re-writing law because ‘them’s good ol’ boys’ as there is.

  26. 26
    LAO says:

    As a defense attorney, who has, on occasion, successfully employed a nullification defense, I’m fucking stunned. And worried about all those goddamn gun nuts running around in this country.

  27. 27
    gf120581 says:

    @dr. bloor: That’s kind of the deal with the entire Pacific Coast. The further you get inland, the wingnuttier you get.

  28. 28
    dr. bloor says:

    @JaneE: It didn’t help that he was a former BLM employee who admitted to bias during deliberations.

  29. 29
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @chopper: They don’t have to think about it anymore. They can do it and get away with it now. Yippee!!

    Contrast that with how Native Americans are being tased and physically assaulted in North Dakota while peacefully protesting.

  30. 30

    Look on the bright side, at least one of them was shot to death first.

  31. 31
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    At any point in the occupation, did any federal employee attempt to do their job at the building? Or did they just stay away?

  32. 32

    @Wapiti: The seeds were sown when Waco passed the twelve-hour mark.

  33. 33
    Mary G says:

    Well, it should cut down on the Podesta email nothingburger-but-it-raises-questions coverage at least.

  34. 34
    gene108 says:

    Are there any other charges they can be found guilty of?

    Trespassing, maybe?


    And I got nothing…

  35. 35
    Mike J says:


    great, now every RW jackhole is going to think about grabbing a gun and ‘occupying’ some federal building.

    LaVoy Finicum won’t. Only way to handle them.

  36. 36
  37. 37
    hovercraft says:

    Here’s What Happened When Black People Tried Armed Occupation

    30 years ago, a similar standoff between police and a black anti-government group in Philadelphia played out very differently. Armed members of a fringe liberation group called MOVE were bombed and burned alive for directing their weapons at police. The bombing highlighted the stark contrast in the way cops treat black and white radicals…….

    They pointed deluge guns at the house and yelled at the people inside to evacuate. Tear gas was thrown into the building to smoke them out. But when someone started shooting back, the officers returned the gunfire with 10,000 rounds. Without knowing how many people were inside, they began throwing explosives at the house. And when nobody came out, they dropped a bomb from a helicopter — setting off a fire that spread to 65 homes and that firefighters were ordered not to put out.
    In the end, one woman and one child made it out of the house alive. Five children and six adults were killed.

    But I’m sure if this had happened today, they would have been allowed to walk free, and if tried they too would have been acquitted. Right?

  38. 38
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Mary G: Now it’s gonna be “Trump is gonna win because Bundy jury”.

  39. 39
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Amaranthine RBG: What does that have to do with anything?

  40. 40
    raven says:

    @gene108: They go to Nevada next.

  41. 41
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Contrast that with how Native Americans are being tased and physically assaulted in North Dakota while peacefully protesting.

    This year is playing merry hell with my emotional stability.

  42. 42

    Jesus Christ. Walking around while being an unarmed Black dude can get you a death sentence without all the intervening horseshit of, you know, an arrest, an indictment and a conviction, but when a bunch of gun wielding white guys steal federal property for a month, they get off?

  43. 43
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Oh dear. Be careful with that.

  44. 44
    raven says:

    ” Ammon Bundy’s attorney fought with judge, agents moved in & tackled attorney, media rushed out of court, I’ve never seen that before!”

  45. 45
    dr. bloor says:

    @Mike J: I keep trying to be bigger than thinking stuff like Nathan Bedford Forrest and Bobby Lee should have been hanged, and the National Guard should have tilled the entire Bundy family into their precious soil, but it’s getting more difficult.

  46. 46
    WaterGirl says:


  47. 47

    @Patricia Kayden: what, he rushed an armed agent.

    ETA: the government would have been well within their rights to take the place by force and ensure a similar fate for other resistors.

  48. 48
    Patricia Kayden says:


     setting off a fire that spread to 65 homes and that firefighters were ordered not to put out.

    I remember when this happened. Shocking even so many decades later.

  49. 49
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: maybe you should look at the elements of the charges and the verdict form before you make any more stupid ass comments.

  50. 50
    Kryptik says:

    @Matt McIrvin:

    It does call into question just how stacked the deck really is. We know the stacking is real, just seems like to a more significant, absurd level than we realized.

  51. 51
    jl says:

    Difficult to believe.
    If the acquittals encourage any goofballs to try another crime like this, they may hurt or kill someone next time.
    And I’ll bet the results of the subsequent trial will be different.
    But would be sad and tragic result of this mistake.

  52. 52
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I know. I’m not disagreeing with your sentiments.

  53. 53
    SenyorDave says:

    Maybe Trump should win and white people should get a taste of being fwcked by the gov’t on an everyday basis.

  54. 54
    redshirt says:

    I’m not a lawyer, so how?

    How could they possibly get a full acquittal?

  55. 55

    @Patricia Kayden: ok, I get what you’re saying, I’m just upset.

  56. 56
    Kryptik says:


    I’m honestly not sure the results would even be different. I’m sure they could manage to find a jury that would be able to find the deaths such assholes cause ‘justifiable’. And I’m not sure there’d be a way to un-fuck the court system if that happened.

  57. 57
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Amaranthine RBG: Not sure how to answer your question but if I was an employee who worked in the building that was taken over, I would have stayed away until the “Patriots” were out of the building. They were well armed and angry and there is no doubt that they would have killed any federal employee who challenged them.

  58. 58

    We live in a society that looks upon Black guys as threats, even when they are shown not to be armed or doing anything against the law, and looks at armed white guys who have already shot people and doesn’t see any big deal or scary threat. (I know that these armed white guys didn’t shoot anybody, but lots of white guys with guns who have shot somebody get taken in without a drop of blood spilled.)

  59. 59
    SatanicPanic says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I chuckled harder than I should have

  60. 60

    @Patricia Kayden: don’t argue with it, it’s a gun-fondling troll.

  61. 61
    Mike J says:

    Everyone said trump’s campaign is off the rails. Pence’s plane is literally off the runway at LGA.

  62. 62
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I’m trying to convince myself that I’m not shocked but I am. This doesn’t bode well for this country with all the angry, armed men who live here — especially under a Clinton administration. Sigh.

  63. 63
    Kryptik says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    And it’s not like said armed white guys didn’t make literal, blatant, overt threats of shooting folks during the course of the occupation.

  64. 64
    Eric U. says:

    I think we may need to go back to forcefully retaking a government building now and then so these pukes can martyr themselves.

  65. 65


    And I’ll bet the results of the subsequent trial will be different.

    Well, that all depends. Are we talking about nice, white guys killing people, or scaaary-ass Black or Hispanic dudes doing it? ’Cause I think that might well make a bit of a difference. I’m feeling bitter right now…

  66. 66
    PsiFighter37 says:

    Shocked / another reason why trial by jury is inanely stupid.

  67. 67
    goblue72 says:

    And thus why when this was going on I suggested the FBI just storm the damn place and shoot these cretins. Because that would be actual justice. Until American society no longer abides IN DEED black men getting killed in the street for selling loosie cigarettes or pulling out their wallet, then justice demands the equivalent treatment when white hee-haws take over Federal property by armed force. THAT is justice. THAT is equitable.

    Because we don’t live in some abstract reality. We live in the world as it is, and until that world changes, the kinds of actions need to be responded to on the basis of what has been deemed standard operating procedure in THIS world.

  68. 68
    gene108 says:



    If Trump wins, the Civil Rights movement goes out the window. White people will be on top again, without question.

    All white people will feel are the bones of minorities, as they are crushed underfoot.

  69. 69
    goblue72 says:

    @redshirt: You really can’t be that naive.

  70. 70
    raven says:

    In a monthlong trial here, the defendants never denied that they had occupied and held the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters for nearly six weeks, demanding that the federal government surrender the 188,000-acre property to local control. But their lawyers argued that prosecutors did not prove that the group had engaged in an illegal conspiracy that kept federal workers — employees of the Fish and Wildlife Service and the Bureau of Land Management — from doing their jobs.

  71. 71
    Spider-Dan says:

    Jury nullification. Simple as that.

    The law doesn’t apply if you are a white Sovereign Citizen.

  72. 72
    Mnemosyne says:

    So, just to be clear, planning to squat at a federal facility and executing that plan doesn’t count as conspiracy because … reasons? WTF!

  73. 73

    @raven: weren’t some of the charges having a fucking gun on federal property? Couldn’t even get a conviction on that, THAT isn’t the prosecutor’s fault.

  74. 74
    Aleta says:

    Weren’t there were questions to the judge in the last 2 days about whether they could split the guilty verdicts per defendant, and whether they could find guilt on some counts but not all? Seems like they were divided but came to believe they would acquit because they weren’t unanimous?

    Inconfuckceivable. Dangerous. Feeling sick.

  75. 75
    JMG says:

    Next time, bring in the drones and incinerate ’em. White Americans are the enemy of human civilization, chapter one trillion.

  76. 76
    WaterGirl says:

    I am as shocked as when OJ was acquitted. That’s not snark, I’m being serious. Un-fucking-believeable. So discouraging.

  77. 77
    MD Rackham says:

    So the lesson for white “patriots” is that they can do as they please.

    And the lesson for the feds is that Waco is the example to follow.

  78. 78
    Aleta says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I believe I read yesterday that they could not be convicted of the charge of having a gun at the federal offices unless it was determined that it was a conspiracy. If no conspiracy, then no gun conviction.

  79. 79
    LAO says:

    @PsiFighter37: I’m curious, what would you propose to replace a jury trial?

  80. 80
    jl says:


    ” White people will be on top again, without question. ”

    Unless you piss off Trump. Or you are too critical. Trump doesn’t like people he deems too critical. The white bigot authoritarians forget about, or lie to themselves, or don’t understand how the beatings (that are necessary to maintain morale) tend to spread under governments based on open and explicit authoritarian principles.

  81. 81
    Calouste says:

    @PsiFighter37: Juries are a medieval system that has no place in a modern democracy. Which is exactly why the US still has them.

  82. 82
    Mj_Oregon says:

    I am still shaking with anger and frustration after almost an hour. This will bring on open season for any federal OR state facility in the West, and elsewhere for that matter. The damage done to the refuge, including desecration of Native American artifacts and burial sites, was and is heartbreaking – indeed the wildlife refuge buildings are still not open to the public. I can NOT understand how these people have been found not guilty of all charges. The years ahead will be stained with blood of innocents because of this – and I don’t mean the “patriots.” Anarchy has just been legitimized in Oregon. FSM protect us.

  83. 83
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    So I can just take over a Federal property waving guns and create chaos and destruction at the site with absolutely no punishment?

    ‘m really hoping that pending analysis of this case and how the jury came to it’s conclusions will make sense of what is otherwise completely and totally insane. This simply has to be an anomaly.

    Because this verdict just put a fucking bullseye target on the backs of every local NPS, BLM, USGF and USFS employee and their state-level counterparts.

    The FBI should have taken them out by force by the end of the first week they camped their assess on that refuge.

    Meanwhile, we’ve got the state of ND sicking dogs and police on Native Americans on behalf of a private corporation…

  84. 84
    Aleta says:

    This puts BLM and FWS and federal forestry employees and researchers in even more danger than before. (not to mention the sacred artifacts, land, animals, insects, water, trees)

  85. 85
    Patricia Kayden says:


    White Americans are the enemy of human civilization, chapter one trillion.

    I’m not going to paint all White Americans with such a broad brush. But this is a trying situation and I understand everyone’s frustration. I feel exhausted now. What a day.

  86. 86
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Amaranthine RBG: You really are that dumb, aren’t you? If my office is taken over by a bunch of people toting guns and demanding snacks, I am prevented from doing my job due to their presence. Because no rational person is going to go there.

  87. 87
    MJS says:

    @Major Major Major Major: True. Hopefully a lesson learned by those sworn to uphold the law. Specifically, when confronted with a white occupier of government land, don’t count on a jury of his peers to do the right thing.

  88. 88
    LAO says:

    @Calouste: what should replace juries?

  89. 89
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    @Patricia Kayden: me too, but from what I have read, they- the Feds- didn’t put evidence in the record re key elements.

    Look I hold no brief for the occupiers and I think Feds would have justified to storm the building and kill them all if they resisted. That said, lots of people here (including a few sad sack dumbasses who shouldn’t practice piano, let alone the law) are assuming that 1) they know what the elements of the various charges were and 2) that the Feds satisfied those elements.

  90. 90
    raven says:

    “Despite the acquittal, the Bundys were expected to stand trial in Nevada early next year on charges stemming from another high-profile standoff with federal agents. Authorities rounding up cattle at their father Cliven Bundy’s ranch in 2014 because of unpaid grazing fees released the animals as they faced armed protesters.”

  91. 91
  92. 92
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @raven: So occupying a Federal building is not sufficient to keep Federal employees from doing their jobs in that building or on nearby property? Federal employees are supposed to risk their lives dealing with armed, angry people now? Ludicrous.

  93. 93
    burnspbesq says:

    Incomprehensible. That jury must have been full of the common clay of the new West.

  94. 94
    Calouste says:

    @LAO: There are well functioning democracies that don’t have jury trials.

  95. 95
  96. 96
    JMG says:

    Next time, there will be blood. The occupiers will be surprised when most of it is theirs.

  97. 97
    raven says:

    @Patricia Kayden: Don’t shoot me, I’m the piano player. I know this, the jury is given specific charges to decide on and I don’t know what they were, do you?

  98. 98
    OlFroth says:

    I never dreamed I’d live to see the day when domestic terrorism was legalized.

  99. 99
    Kryptik says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    I’m going to go out on a limb here and say this might be too kind.

  100. 100
    gene108 says:


    As long as the right type of conservatives are in charge, they will be perfectly happy to have th gays, blacks, Latinos, Asians, white-race-traitors and other undesirables rounded up and sent away.

    One thing that stuck out about the early years of Bush, Jr. was how much conservatives did not give a damn about processes or the rule of law, as long as their guys were doing what they wanted.

    Conservatives have a very strong affinity towards fascist strong daddy types.

  101. 101
    burnspbesq says:

    @Amaranthine RBG:

    You’re so fucking smart, describe in detail the elements of the offenses that were not proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and where the evidence fell short.

    Everybody is Tom Fucking Brady the morning after the Super Bowl.

  102. 102
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    You know what, srv? (Yes, I know that I should not feed the troll.)

    You can fuck right the fuck off. (Yes, I know that I should not feed the troll.)

    And the fucking horse you fucking rode in on, too. (Yes, I know that I should not feed the troll.)

  103. 103
    Aleta says:

    IIRC, Brian Cavelier (sp,) who’s pictured there, already pled guilty to some felony charges, and was sentenced to time already served. Can no longer possess guns or go onto some federal property like Malheur.

    Had they not been tried together, this outcome might be different.

  104. 104
    planetjanet says:

    Good to see @LAO is here. Has someone done a safety check on @Adam L Silverman?

  105. 105
    Aleta says:

    @planetjanet: His keyboard may be under attack.

  106. 106
    LAO says:

    @planetjanet: I got a puppy, she demands a lot of attention.

  107. 107
    Ella in New Mexico says:


    God works in mysterious ways.

    Yeah, well if I were a Refuge or Park Service or BLM employee, I’d pretty much start packing right now, for personal protection. No need for Waco, just self-defense. I hope God works his magic for them then and it’s just a flesh wound.

  108. 108
    raven says:

    @burnspbesq: At trial, the case was seemingly open-and-shut. There was no dispute the group seized the refuge, established armed patrols and vetted those who visited.

    “Ladies and gentlemen, this case is not a whodunit,” Assistant U.S. Attorney Ethan Knight said in his closing argument, arguing that the group decided to take over a federal workplace that didn’t belong to them.

    On technical grounds, the defendants said they never discussed stopping individual workers from accessing their offices but merely wanted the land and the buildings. On emotional grounds, Ammon Bundy and other defendants argued that the takeover was an act of civil disobedience against an out-of-control federal government that has crippled the rural West.”

  109. 109
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    Meanwhile, we’ve got the state of ND sicking dogs and police on Native Americans on behalf of a private corporation…

    This! A million times this!

    @raven: I sure don’t. You got me there.

  110. 110
    raven says:

    @planetjanet: I shot him an email.

  111. 111
    amygdala says:

    I got nothin’… *sigh*

  112. 112
    planetjanet says:

    @LAO: Excellent coping mechanism. Hang in there.

  113. 113
    agorabum says:

    Everyone is ripping the jury right now, but…(devil’s advocate), the DA had a role in picking that jury and we get to speak with them after deliberations, so I guess we’ll hear about their reasoning in the next day or so.

    I don’t get it, but we’ll get an explanation with some time

  114. 114
    raven says:

    @Patricia Kayden: I hope we find out.

  115. 115
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Skip his comments and save your blood pressure. Trolls are not worth it.

  116. 116
    TheMightyTrowel says:

    @OlFroth: White domestic terrorism has always been at least marginally legal if not celebrated.

  117. 117
    gene108 says:

    Part of me wants these lands to be auctioned off to the highest bidder. Let the free market decide. The people buying up the land will be east coast financiers.

    Th she Sovereign Citizen types are big about sticking all kinds of conditions on who can buy land, should the Feds auction it off.

    They know, if it went to the highest bidder, they would lose.

    For all their anti-government rhetoric, they know they need to hide behind the skirts of big government interference for their plans to work.

  118. 118
    Botsplainer says:

    Next time, roll on in and kill them all.

    Surely can do no worse – expect more stupid, drawling white trash bullshit in the future.

  119. 119
    Coin operated says:

    These hicks are going to think they can act this way until we send Spectre gunships to do the negotiations. Martyrs be dammed…It’s the only thing these fuckwits understand.

  120. 120
    D58826 says:

    In the meantime armed storm troopers are clearing the demonstrators from the pipeline sight in North Dakota. But that is ok because they aren’t white.

    Trump is right – cancel the election and declare him dictator.

    American democracy and the rule of law died today.

  121. 121

    @raven: they wanted just the land and the buildings, and people were free to walk on the land into the buildings and use their offices??

  122. 122

    So, off topic, but, Lord in heaven, is the American press awful. Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow are about the best there are, but Hayes has spent the first 20 minutes of tonight’s show talking about how Mike Pence’s plane skidded off the runway. Nobody got hurt, and nobody yet knows how or why it happened, but they’ve wasted 20 minutes establishing that nobody got hurt and nobody yet knows how or why it happened. Hayes’s show is among the best, but today, with this 24 hour news cycle shit, even his show has to waste a third of its slot going over all this horseshit.

  123. 123
  124. 124
    Amanda in the South Bay says:

    @burnspbesq: Since the trial took place in the Federal Court for the District of Oregon, there’s a lot of nasty folk outside the Willamette Valley (as its true everywhere outside large cities and college towns on the West Coast).

  125. 125
    Matt McIrvin says:


    I am as shocked as when OJ was acquitted.

    The cops who beat Rodney King.

  126. 126
    Calouste says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Do you wonder how the Supreme Court ever makes a decision without a jury?

  127. 127
    dr. bloor says:

    @raven: Yeah, and unfortunately for Bundy, et al, they’re going to find out that certain parties in Nevada are a whole lot more concerned about Nevada’s reputation in the public eye than are Oregonians.

  128. 128
    Soylent Green says:

    I am protected by armed guards at the Portland federal building. It’s now open season on my thousands of colleagues out there on the land.

  129. 129
    raven says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.): And if all he talked about were emails you would say????

  130. 130
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    If my office is taken over by a bunch of people toting guns and demanding snacks, I am prevented from doing my job due to their presence. Because no rational person is going to go there.

    But, see, that just proves that you have an irrational fear of guns, so ARBG and his buddies need to wave their peni$es guns in public to prove that they just want you to look at them. And maybe touch them, if you want to. A little fondling might be nice … oh, yeah, like that …

  131. 131
    Botsplainer says:

    @dr. bloor:

    Nope, you’re absolutely right. The only safely passive Wingnut is a dead Wingnut.

  132. 132
    Soylent Green says:

    @dr. bloor: Nope. This means they will get away with Bunkerville.

  133. 133
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    @LAO: just have people read some blog posts and vote based on that. What more do you need?

  134. 134

    @Calouste: by being an appellate court that doesn’t handle prosecutions?

  135. 135
    WaterGirl says:

    @Matt McIrvin: I know. Our criminal “justice” system is pretty fucked up.

  136. 136
    Calouste says:

    @D58826: Something can’t die if it has never been alive.

  137. 137
    dr. bloor says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: A number of BLM employees already have packed and left due to this stuff, including intimidation by “constitutional sheriffs.”

    Get the feds out of everything other than military and national security interests between Palm Springs and St. Louis. Let the yokels and the corporate interests settle matters as they may. Put on the Jiffy Pop.

  138. 138
    Calouste says:

    @Major Major Major Major: And? What law of the universe prevents us from applying the same model to lower level courts, like most other countries, and pretty much all democracies, do?

  139. 139
    Oldgold says:

    Who conducted the voir dire for the government – Laurel or Hardy?

  140. 140
    Enhanced Voting Techinques says:

    @gene108: a) Trump is out for Trump.

    b) As the Mormons have pointed out, some white people are less white than others.

  141. 141

    @Calouste: You think turning criminal decisions over to politician-appointed judges is better than juries?

    I also know how blackjack dealers make decisions without a jury, would that be preferable?

  142. 142
    Mike J says:

    @WaterGirl: They didn’t have evidence to convict OJ. It was right that he was acquitted. Which isn’t to say he didn’t do it, but not guilty was the right decision in that case.

  143. 143
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @NYCMT: Yep

  144. 144
    Brachiator says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.): Sometimes they both get bogged down in self-satisfied rhetorical noodling. They just can’t help it.

  145. 145
    Botsplainer says:


    Great goddamn to know I agreed with you then AND agree with you now.

    This is what comes of kindness and forebearance for the thoughts, theories and concerns of “hard working white people”.

    Fuck ’em.

  146. 146
    RobertDSC-Mac Mini says:

    Not a single one of those terrorists should have been left alive.

  147. 147
    NYCMT says:

    @dr. bloor: Nah. That’s giving up! The laws are the laws, even if a bunch of chickenshit nullifiers are on the jury. Remember the battle hymn of the republic.

  148. 148
    dr. bloor says:

    @agorabum: Substitute a bunch of black folks, Native Americans, or Latinos for the Bundy Crew, and try to envision a similar outcome.

    Anything the jury shits out over the coming days and weeks is classic post hoc rationalization.

  149. 149
    Enhanced Voting Techinques says:

    @WaterGirl: Would you seriously vote to convict a defendant after the detective admitted to planting evidence? This is the LAPD we’re talking about too.

  150. 150
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Calouste: We can start with the fact the Supreme Court is an appellate court.

    If you want bench trials for everyone, then think about what happens when someone is standing in front of a Scalia-esque, W appointed judge. Wouldn’t that be fun?

  151. 151
    Kryptik says:

    @Mike J:

    The investigation into OJ was a fuck-up that nullified a lot of evidence against him because of police malfeasance.

    This was just straight up bizarro world fuckupery that seems incomprehensible currently.

  152. 152
    debbie says:


    I missed you in an earlier thread, so I’m trying again:

    O/T, but would you ever think of doing a movie blog on something like this? Of the three movies mentioned in this piece, I’ve only seen The Lion in Winter, but I’ve reserved the other two at my library. There’s something in the American character that foments grifting. Post-election seems a good time for some introspection.

  153. 153
    dr. bloor says:

    @Oldgold: Knight was, by media accounts anyway, a ultra-competent, no nonsense prosecutor. It’s more likely that there weren’t 12 people in the jury pool that weren’t aching for a chance to stick their finger in the Feds’ eye.

  154. 154
    Botsplainer says:


    Waco the fuckers during the standoff.

  155. 155
    Amanda in the South Bay says:

    Of course /r/Portland is full of white contrarian douchebags enjoying their time in the sun.

  156. 156

    @Enhanced Voting Techinques: yeah, one can be lowercase g guilty and still Not Guilty at the same time.

  157. 157
    NYCMT says:

    @Adam L Silverman: That fact pattern was as clear as clear can be – a casebook exemplar. That’s okay. We’ll get ’em next time. (I mean, it’s not okay, but the Republic is patient. And remorseless.)

  158. 158
    Mnemosyne says:


    I’d have to think about it — it’s not usually where my brain goes, so I’m not sure I could. I’ll keep it in mind, though.

  159. 159
    Cacti says:

    The venue for the Nevada trial will be Clark County, where the odds of getting a box full of sympathetic wingnuts are considerably lower.

  160. 160
    WarMunchkin says:

    What the fucking fuck shit? So apparently, in responding to an attack on Fort Sumter, the Northerners were in the wrong. Our bad.

  161. 161
    singfoom says:

    I mean who hasn’t occupied a federal building while armed? Youthful hijinks obviously good natured fun, right? /s

  162. 162
    Kryptik says:


    The results of that trial won’t properly counteract the consequences of this one, though.

  163. 163
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techinques:

    Are you talking about Furhman? IIRC, he didn’t say he planted evidence, he admitted that he didn’t have a proper warrant for the place where he found the bloody glove and had hopped a fence to get to it.

  164. 164
    Soylent Green says:

    @RobertDSC-Mac Mini: No.

    But the site should have been blocked off until they ran out of food and surrendered. No media circus and no freedom of movement. The government erred on the side of caution.

  165. 165
    WaterGirl says:

    @Mike J: @Enhanced Voting Techinques: True enough. But it was still a travesty of justice that he killed her and got off scott free.

    When I was on jury duty 3 years ago, the other jurors were a little cranky with me. I agreed with them that they guy on trial was certainly a bad guy and I thought he had done the crime. But I needed to work through it so I could be sure that I believed they had proven that rather than convicting him because we all thought he was guilty. I voted to convict, we all did, and then we got to learn all the stuff that wasn’t allowed into evidence.

    He was a very scary guy who had some very scary buddies, and the murder weapon had been hidden in the back yard around the corner and two houses down from me. They walked us all to our cars after the verdict and I was skittish for a week or 10 days. Then the tree fell on my house and pretty much pushed everything else out of my head. I guess that was the silver lining from the tree crashing.

    edit to add: I hadn’t believed the cop that testified, not for a moment. once I eliminated his lies because I couldn’t think of them as evidence, I needed to be sure that the whole thing hadn’t just been based on his lies, which sounded to me like retroactive bullshit to cover a bad warrant.

  166. 166
    Mike J says:

    @Amanda in the South Bay:

    Of course /r/Portland is full of white contrarian douchebags enjoying their time in the sun.

    /r/ anything is always full of white douchebags and pedophiles.

  167. 167
    Cacti says:


    The results of that trial won’t properly counteract the consequences of this one, though.


    This acquittal is probably going to get innocent people killed.

  168. 168
    Calouste says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Why not? It seems to work fine in most democracies.

  169. 169
    dr. bloor says:

    @Soylent Green: I feel really badly for you right now (stay safe!), but disagree. The DOJ is good at learning from their mistakes, and more to the point, gaming interests have too much skin in the game.

  170. 170
    Corner Stone says:



    Great goddamn to know I agreed with you then AND agree with you now.

    God, you and that fucking clown canoodling together under an open IV blood drip shower in a bathtub.
    Get a fucking hold of yourself.

  171. 171
    Woodrowfan says:

    my cousin just called from the Dayton area. Took at least an hour to vote, very slow process. And lots of angry-looking older white guys were prowling up and down the line outside the building trying to look intimidating. One young black women in line behind my cousin left and didn’t vote after people were rude to her. They didn’t do that to white voters…. .

  172. 172
    Mike J says:

    @WaterGirl: If you ignore the bad evidence, as you should, there wasn’t enough evidence to convict. That’s the opposite of a travesty of justice. That was the proper outcome. There’s no other way to stop prosecutors.

  173. 173
    Cacti says:


    my cousin just called from the Dayton area. Took at least an hour to vote, very slow process. And lots of angry-looking older white guys were prowling up and down the line outside the building trying to look intimidating. One young black women in line behind my cousin left and didn’t vote after people were rude to her. They didn’t do that to white voters…. .

    Photos need to be taken and the DOJ should be contacted any time and anywhere this is an issue.

  174. 174
    Corner Stone says:


    I mean who hasn’t occupied a federal building while armed? Youthful hijinks obviously good natured fun, right?

    Not a federal building but once a few years ago I grabbed Gov Rick Perry by his My Little Pony pajama collars and threw him bodily out of the TX Gov House.
    I was feeling a mite peckish though, I must admit.

  175. 175
    Mary G says:

    @Calouste: You are probably a troll and I should just go on ignoring you, but this is the stupidest idea I’ve heard in a long time. The American jury system is the worst one in the world, except for all of the other systems.

    I said this was nullification in the last thread and that it is scary, and it is, but if some over-zealous wingnut prosecutor in the future (when we’re all living under the thumb of Ted Cruz) takes a progressive to trial, we still have nullification to fall back on.

  176. 176
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mike J: Both the civil and the criminal juries got it right in the OJ cases.

  177. 177
    WaterGirl says:

    @Mike J: Yes, you have to ignore the bad evidence. I agree that there’s no other way to stop prosecutors from doing that stuff. And that may have been the proper verdict from the jury if the case and trial were mishandled.

    But I still think it’s a travesty of justice when a murderer goes free when it’s pretty damn clear that he did it.

  178. 178
    Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap says:

    @Cacti: Need to call the local Dems who should be ready for this.

  179. 179
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Yeah, I generally do, but for some reason this time he just royally pissed me off and I couldn’t didn’t control myself. Which, of course, is his entire raison d’être, I know that.

  180. 180
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @WaterGirl: I put responsibility for someone walking squarely on law enforcement and the prosecutors.

  181. 181
    WaterGirl says:

    I am not altogether sure that my mom did the right thing when she raised her daughters to believe that the world should be fair.

  182. 182
    tsquared2001 says:

    I have to see Eric Garner get choked to death. I have to see Tamir Rice get shot down in less than 5 seconds. I have to see John Crawford get shot at a fucking Walmart. The lack of justice in ALL of those cases is just something I have to fucking swallow.

    And now, I have to see a bunch of yahoos get off because other fucking yahoos want to enshrine the primitive notion that white makes right.

    I am done.

  183. 183
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    Mike Pence’s plane skidded off the runway. Nobody got hurt, and nobody yet knows how or why it happened

    I’ve spent several minutes trying to figure out why I should even care, and am coming up empty.

  184. 184
    Botsplainer says:


    Better yet, call local armed white people to confront the old white intimidators.

    It’s Ohio. I wouldn’t count on law enforcement to help, but a shaming crew of angry white liberals may well do the trick.

  185. 185
    John Weiss says:

    @Baud: No need to worry about Oregon.

  186. 186
    TS says:

    @Baud: The lone holdout was removed from the jury for “bias”

    Edit: I’m probably the last of many to mention this

  187. 187
    WaterGirl says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I am wondering whether you are speaking generally or if you are saying that about the OJ case or this case with the so-called sovereign citizens.

  188. 188
    hovercraft says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
    I know, and that was after Tweety spent two segments talking about “Clinton Inc.” he ranted about the the Clintons always skating to the edge, he raved about the Motel 6, Lincoln bedroom scandal. lining them up and renting it out by the hour, then he concluded that people don’t change just because you put them in the White House. If you want that, then vote for her, that’s who those people are. Then he ended his show with a lament about Trump not just sticking to the issues and instead going off on all these tangents, he added that it’s not that he wants Trump to win, he just wants the election decided on the issues, not this crap.

  189. 189

    I weep for this country.

  190. 190
    Botsplainer says:

    @Corner Stone:

    You forgot to mention “gargling with the blood of well-meaning, honest white patriots who only want the best and deserve to be treated with tolerance, compassion, and respect for their alternative views”.

    This is what people get for being nice to them. 😄

  191. 191
    WaterGirl says:

    @tsquared2001: It’s beyond fucked up.

    But what do you mean by “I’m done”?

  192. 192
    NickM says:

    Reading the new Hilter biography by Volker Ullrich, one of the contributors to the rise of fascism was the unwillingness of authorities to enforce the law against the right wing. The Beer Hall Putsch resulted in the murder of a number of police officers in an attempt to overthrow the state. The right wing judge hearing the case helped to nullify the charges. He allowed Hitler to cross examine the prosecution. He dispatched the lightest possible sentence. And prison authorities made sure the Nazis were well housed and well fed, even allowing them to hold dances every weekend. They supplied Hitler with the materials to complete the first volume of Mein Kampf, and then released him and his cohorts after a year. In 1932, a SA gang kicked a communist official to death. They became a Nazi cause celebe, had their sentences reduced from death to imprisionment, and were out within a year.

  193. 193
    TS says:

    @Matt McIrvin: 100% of Trump supporters agree with the Bundy jury and Trump is promising them he will make sure white privilege remains

  194. 194
    Botsplainer says:


    This country needed a lot more Nat Turners.

  195. 195
    hovercraft says:

    Tweety talks about that crap, Chris and Rachel will report the days highlights and move on, they don’t dwell, so that wouldn’t have been an issue.

  196. 196
    WaterGirl says:

    I keep refreshing this thread, hoping for a right-arrow that will bring a thread to distract me from the rage and sorrow that this verdict brings.

  197. 197
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @WaterGirl: In general. I’ll make an exception for nullification cases.

  198. 198
    RK says:

    How can you know whether a verdict was proper or not if you haven’t sat through the entire trial. I watched the entire Trayvon Martin case and I would’ve been shocked if Zimmerman hadn’t been found not guilty.

  199. 199
    raven says:

    @hovercraft: Tweety ain’t no Rachel.

  200. 200
    Botsplainer says:


    Yep. This went off the rails when an Idaho jury handed money to Randall Weaver’s dumb ass for getting his wife and child killed.

  201. 201
    WaterGirl says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Thanks for clarifying. This one feels like nullification to me.

  202. 202
  203. 203
    Peale says:

    @hovercraft: I will say this every night. I assume Tweety will change his show to cover issues. He’s only had 25 years to do that. But he hasn’t seemed all that concerned about it until now.

  204. 204
    jenn says:

    I am so filled with rage at this, I cannot find words. I have typed and deleted over and over and over.

    I was incredibly pissed off that the Feds just let those armed fuckers stay there, when ANY OTHER DEMOGRAPHIC would have been hauled out of there by force. I reconciled myself to it by the fact that justice would be done in the courts. But now there’s no justice, just mockery. More – I have friends who work in the land management agencies – an open season has just been declared against them, because that fucking jury has decided that armed dipshits can act against them with impunity. I feel not unlike what I felt when I heard that Zimmerman’s attorney argued that Trayvon was armed with the damn sidewalk, and the jury evidently went along with that, and acquitted. If all it takes for a black kid to be considered armed and dangerous is to be standing on a sidewalk…. What the everloving fuck. In both the case at hand, and how that impacts future cases.

  205. 205
    Oldgold says:

    @dr. bloor:

    The results would seem to contradict that assessment. No way nullifiers should be able to slip through a competent voir dire in a case such as this.

    Now, sometimes in Federal Court the presiding Judge will f-up beyond all recognition the void dire. I wonder if that happened here.

  206. 206
    Mnemosyne says:


    I think I mentioned in the other thread that there were a lot of LAPD screw-ups, stupid stuff that let the defense say that the evidence was potentially contaminated (like the ME leaving blood evidence in his car for hours). So there were a lot of own goals by the police and prosecutors that created reasonable doubt for a jury that was already skeptical.

  207. 207
    Botsplainer says:

    Maybe I need to start looking harder at my escape route.

  208. 208
    Mnemosyne says:

    @dr. bloor:

    Thank you, I needed that.

  209. 209
    Corner Stone says:

    @Botsplainer: I don’t give a shit about being nice to them, listening to their views or treating them with any modicum of respect. I do, however, have a problem with government deciding they are guilty and executing them out of hand as said guilt is clearly manifest.
    I’m against government sanctioned murder of our citizens when it happens to black folk, men and women of color and I am against it when some propose these yokels also deserve death by acclamation of an outraged few. The system did its thing. Hate on the outcome all you want. Push for reform and change where we can.

  210. 210
    Botsplainer says:


    Sometimes judges will bend over backwards to accommodate asshole Wingnut lawyers and pro se litigants from the aspect of appearing to be fair AND to get the morons to shut the fuck up.

    I’m thinking this likely here.

  211. 211
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    Shhhhj…shhhhh…. we for lots of folks gettin their righteous indignation on!

    We don’t need no stinkin juries— the internets know who is guilty!

  212. 212
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @WaterGirl: And to me.

  213. 213
    Botsplainer says:

    @Corner Stone:

    My take has always been the same – nobody has the right to an armed standoff. Due process is about coming in peacefully. Once the standoff starts, consequences are on you.

  214. 214
    dr. bloor says:

    @Oldgold: The judge tossed a holdout juror on the say-so of one of eleven other acquittal jurors. So what do you suppose might have happened here?

  215. 215
    The Sheriff's A Ni- says:

    @Corner Stone: Well, I’m certain once the bodies start falling, we can sort this all out with a sternly worded letter or two.

    I’m really starting to wonder if Obama’s no drama policy is indirectly setting us up for some serious future bloodshed.

  216. 216
    hovercraft says:

    At this point Tweety aint no Megan Kelly, and she sucks.

  217. 217
  218. 218
    WaterGirl says:

    @jenn: I am completely with you on everything you said. I don’t even know what to do with my rage and sorrow.

    @dr. bloor: Thanks for that. just watching the kitty tummies go up and down slowed my breathing and tears started rolling down my face. Anger and rage aren’t go-to emotion for me, so I don’t know what to do with them. When the tears started as I watched the kitties, I was reminded that that’s what happens when I’m so enraged that I don’t know what to do with myself.

    I left the kitty tab open, heading back there now.

  219. 219
    Corner Stone says:

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-: Your better suggestion is?

  220. 220
    Another Scott says:

    @Woodrowfan: Horrible. I hope people are filming the intimidation efforts so that there will be some consequences. (Unfortunately, it may be too late in this case.)


  221. 221
    NickM says:

    This isn’t exactly a he said she said mystery about what happen d one night. The defendants broadcast and tweeted evidence of their crime, which was not exactly subtle. It’s not difficult to have a firm grasp on the evidence without having been there.

  222. 222
    tsquared2001 says:

    @WaterGirl: I’m done with giving the benefit of the doubt to white people. Moms was white and her awakening was Emmett Till. I thought my own awakening was Rodney King but in the years that ensued, I had forgotten how I felt after that verdict.
    No more. Fuck honkie

  223. 223
    hovercraft says:

    He never talks about issues when he is discussing Hillary and Bill, but since he really wants Trump to do well because he agrees with him, he hates it when Trump forces people to focus on the fact that he’s a sexist, racist, xenophobe. Tweety would like Trump to keep that side of him hidden and just focus on his “issues”.

  224. 224
    Corner Stone says:

    @Botsplainer: It’s certainly an interesting position to take.

  225. 225
    WaterGirl says:

    @dr. bloor: Some damn human just interrupted my reverie! Had to mute the kitty thread, will come back to it later.

  226. 226
    raven says:

    @tsquared2001: THIS is what’s going to push you over the edge?

  227. 227
    Trentrunner says:

    @jenn: Hear fucking hear. Every word.

  228. 228
    Botsplainer says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I’ve always been mean that way.

  229. 229
    sigaba says:

    Okay NOW we can start making the Weimar comparisons. I was waiting for us to check the “Courts let right-wing terrorists walk” box, now here we are.

  230. 230
    debbie says:


    I still believe in karma. They, as we all, will one day face theirs. Don’t waste your energy.

  231. 231
    The Sheriff's A Ni- says:

    @Corner Stone: I’d rather not go back to Ruby Ridge / Waco, but the current alternative isn’t quite working either. Rural America is turning into an armed insurrectionist front. How do you stop that?

  232. 232
    celticdragonchick says:


    No. The shoot order was blatantly unconstitutional. Randy Weaver is an asshole. I loathe any and everything he believes. He and his wife and kid still did not deserve what happened, and there was never any fucking reason to have US marshals all over the place over a damned missed court date that stemmed from an marginally illegal sawed off shotgun that was found to be an entrapment problem (IE a federal plant cajoled Weaver into sawing off a shotgun 1/8 of an inch shy of legal)

    BTW, the freewheeling bullshit that the FBI and ATF did in those days is what fed the militia movement.

  233. 233
    tsquared2001 says:

    @RK: @Amaranthine RBG: Fuck both you motherfuckers. And Zimmerman shot Trayvon on cold fucking blood.

  234. 234
    Woodrowfan says:

    @Cacti: I’ve contacted the Green County (Ohio) Democratic Party. Maybe they have lawyers on call.

  235. 235
    hovercraft says:

    DSCC going back into Florida. Rubio Schumer is coming for you.

  236. 236
    Eric U. says:

    @Soylent Green: the perimeter should have been much smaller around the building. People leaving should not have been allowed back. Nobody should have been allowed to enter. It was far too lax, and they were allowed to terrorize the locals for far too long. Same with the Bundy ranch standoff. I understand the “no martyrs” policy, but this was sloppy

  237. 237
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-: President Obama is not to blame for the jury decision.

  238. 238
    raven says:

    @debbie: I was watching Eastwood in the Unforgiven today and, when the blind cowboy said “he didn’t deserve it” Munny said “We all deserve it”.

  239. 239
    dr. bloor says:

    @WaterGirl: Bookmark the site. Shelley is doing amazing work up in BC.

  240. 240
    Corner Stone says:

    @Botsplainer: I’ve got a lot of very “white people say” shit to say about how easy it is for us to be all erect at the thought of govt sanctioned violence against those who disrupt our sense of equanimity.

  241. 241
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @tsquared2001: It’s senseless to blame all White people for this. It’s ok to blame White privilege though.

    Oh dear.

  242. 242

    @hovercraft: wtf, didn’t they just ‘leave’ yesterday? Weird.

  243. 243
    Wapiti says:


    there was never any fucking reason to have US marshals all over the place over a damned missed court date that stemmed from an marginally illegal sawed off shotgun that was found to be an entrapment problem (IE a federal plant cajoled Weaver into sawing off a shotgun 1/8 of an inch shy of legal)

    I was a bit surprised that the Weaver entrapment case wasn’t used more in the various Muslim terrorists cases that seemed to be manufactured by the FBI. Well, not really surprised, since the defendants were black or Arab, so somehow entrapment isn’t the same.

  244. 244
    The Sheriff's A Ni- says:

    @Patricia Kayden: Its part of a greater picture of emboldening rural yahoos into rebellion by trying to play Mr. Nice Guy. See the post right above yours.

  245. 245
    WaterGirl says:

    @tsquared2001: I was shocked and upset about Rodney King but that was a long time ago and over the years the police seemed to be less the bad guy and more the good guy. I suspect I just didn’t see what was happening.

    But after Trayvon Martin, I just can’t un-see it. It enrages me and breaks my heart at the same time. I don’t blame you for not trusting us. But some of us have our eyes open and we are with you. I just don’t know how to change our screwed up system.

  246. 246
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    The laws are the laws

    The Law is the true embodiment
    Of everything that’s excellent;
    It has no kind of fault or flaw,
    And I, my Lords, embody the Law.

  247. 247
    Baud says:

    This sucks.

  248. 248
    Corner Stone says:

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-: ETA, I saw the wrong link so made a mistake there. My bad.

  249. 249
    piratedan says:

    its just incredibly frustrating that we have 12 people, who somehow believe that having armed people on your worksite, occupying your place of employment, 24/7 is somehow legitimate. I’d love to hear how willing they would be to have strangers sitting in their place of residence or workplace for six weeks and have them think nothing of it. To have them trash the place is simply a bonus.

  250. 250
    tsquared2001 says:

    @raven: To be honest, it has been the last 8 years. But it USED to be that the powers that be would be somewhat apologetic over their white supremacy ethos and I took comfort in that. The arc of history and all that ying yang.
    Now – it right the fuck in my face with NO apology.
    Like you do with LBJ, I do with honkie.

  251. 251
    WaterGirl says:

    @raven: For what it’s worth, I can understand it. Jean explained it really well in #206.

  252. 252
    Soylent Green says:

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-: The president’s degree of poise has nothing to do with this. The government’s response at the Malheur refuge was designed to avoid any and all bloodshed at the site, and it succeeded. The big mistake was letting the occupiers come and go, letting the media in, letting them resupply, letting the militias reinforce them, letting them get online, etc., which turned them into rural folk heroes and gave the jury the idea that they had done nothing wrong.

    The next time, the FBI better have a goddamned siege strategy in place. That’s hard to do when the next occupation will also be in the middle of nowhere, where it will take law enforcement weeks to mobilize.

    My best friend, an employee of the Malheur National Forest, said she is somewhat afraid to go to work.

  253. 253
    TriassicSands says:


    It is impossible to overstate just how stupid, ignorant, or evil a huge slice of the American population is. How could Trump possibly be even remotely competitive in a presidential race? How could Bundy, et al. get off? The answer comes down to the ever worsening condition of the American people.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if there were at least several jurors who favored conviction, but were held hostage — “Look either vote for acquittal or you won’t be home in time to watch TV tonight.” “Just think of all the social media you’re missing out on being stuck in here. Vote not guilty and you can go home.”

    That theory would make the jurors who favored conviction extraordinarily shallow and worthless as jurors. But it wouldn’t surprise me at all.

  254. 254
    debbie says:



  255. 255
    raven says:

    @WaterGirl: i read it

  256. 256
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @RK: Because it’s perfectly fine with you for a White man to gun down an unarmed Black kid, right? You seem to be on the wrong blog. Stormfront would be more of your thing.

  257. 257
    The Sheriff's A Ni- says:

    @Corner Stone: Nope, Eric U at #238. Yours came while I was posting.

  258. 258
    tsquared2001 says:

    @Patricia Kayden: How exactly do you separate white people from white privilege?

  259. 259
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @dr. bloor: I’ve got kids who do this work…this verdict scares me. I’ve advised them accordingly and reassured them that we’ll mortgage the house if we need to to defend them, should something happen.

  260. 260
    WaterGirl says:


    Don’t waste your energy.

    Yeah, but we can’t just do nothing. What’s happening is so wrong and so against what this country stands for that it would be wrong to just say “oh well, they’ll get theirs”.

  261. 261
    Baud says:

    Hillary is going to need some leeway in dealing with these folks.

  262. 262
    hovercraft says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    I’m not sure when the Ads stopped running, but they announced a few weeks ago that they were pulling out, at the time the race was not close, Rubio was up I believe double digits. But the race has gotten tighter recently, and the DSCC has been heavily criticized for pulling out. I read somewhere that Obama and Hillary wanted them to go back in, her because if they can knock him off, she not only gets the senator, she could also set his presidential aspirations.

  263. 263
    WaterGirl says:


    DSCC going back into Florida.

    It’s about time! I don’t know what they were thinking when they left.

  264. 264
    LurkerExtraordinaire says:

    Called it.

    Shit is gonna get ugly before it gets better. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if this country breaks up in my lifetime.

  265. 265
    jl says:


    Surely, ‘white-race-traitors’ will be watched. But I guarantee you, some white right thinking right voting authoritarian little people will get on a list if they get in the way of power, money or whim in any Trumpist authoritarian administration, whether run by Trump, or Cruz, or whoever. As long as not too many, they will just be very surprised and chagrined collateral damage, and they will be surprised that their white right thinking right voting brethren don’t care. As long as critical mass of white bigots and authoritarians can tell themselves it can’t happen to them, will be no fuss.

    Of course, if anything one tenth as bad happened to a white bigot authoritarian under the tyrannical fascist boot heel of an Obama or HRC, or any Democrat, then all hell would break loose in the media and House GOP caucus.

  266. 266
    Baud says:

    Funny that Pence’s plane goes off the runway at La Guardia, of all places

  267. 267
    hovercraft says:

    Are you suggesting she go and murder people like Bill and Janet Reno did at Waco for no reason at all?

  268. 268
    sigaba says:


    Hillary is going to need some leeway in dealing with these folks.

    We either win according to the rules or we lose.

  269. 269
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @tsquared2001: By acknowledging that White privilege exists without blaming all White people for its existence. John Cole is White. He probably has benefited from White privilege but why should I hate him or blame him for that?

  270. 270
    celticdragonchick says:


    I think they tend to build those cases from contacts that already expressed interest in some sort of terror activity on the internet or some such. They had no proof of any such interest on Weaver’s part that he was offering to go illegally modifying weapons.

    In any event, they really only wanted to hold that over him as a threat and recruit him to go spy on Aryan Nation.

    He refused, and he didn’t show up for court regarding the shotgun charge (and the court dates were apparently screwed up so even if he had shown up, he still might have been charged with refusing to show since he had been given the wrong date)

    We know what happened after that.

    Now I guess the feds cover their bases a bit better on those things. You can never tell with juries, though.

  271. 271
    WaterGirl says:

    @Patricia Kayden: @tsquared2001:

    It’s senseless to blame all White people for this.

    To say that it’s senseless is missing the point, I think. That’s logic speaking, but when you lose trust, that’s not about logic.

  272. 272
    hovercraft says:

    Chuck was being cheap, Missouri and Indiana are much cheaper, also too NH.

  273. 273
    ChrisGrrr says:

    @Mary G: Oooh, well said.

    I am so relieved to find so many commenters I respect here to be as confused or angry as I am…

  274. 274

    @hovercraft: weird, I thought I heard about the DSCC thing this week.

  275. 275
    celticdragonchick says:


    What. The. Fuck.

  276. 276
    debbie says:


    Well, nullification is not as rare as it used to be. Maybe this increase in incidents points to weaknesses in the system. How would you change it? I might have ideas, but I’m still smarting over the smackdown from my plans to change the UN. ;)

  277. 277
    Baud says:


    No, I’m saying no Clinton Rules when it comes to dealing with the problem.

  278. 278
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Baud: This is definitely something President Hillary Clinton will have to deal with as the “Patriots” have now been emboldened.

  279. 279
    Soylent Green says:

    @TriassicSands: I spent two days observing at the trial. The defense’s incompetence and stalling tactics and irrelevant motions and verbosity and parade of clueless witnesses added several tiresome weeks to its length. After six weeks, the jury wanted to get it over with, so took the easy way out.

  280. 280
    hovercraft says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    That’s probably why they are going back in, when they announced they were leaving no one cared because it looked like a lost cause. As it tightened every one started to notice that they had pulled out, and started criticizing them

  281. 281
    dr. bloor says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: Oy. And here all I have to worry about is my kid joining the army. Keep’em safe.

  282. 282
    The Pale Scot says:

    @dr. bloor:

    Nathan Bedford Forrest and Bobby Lee should have been hanged,

    Absolutely, in that era any other country all of the combatants would have been hung. At least the officer class should have been hung, and the NCOs watched very closely

  283. 283
    hovercraft says:

    I was being facetious, of course no matter how she handles something like this will be wrong. Too harsh, too lenient, to wishy washy, sending mixed messages.

    ETA: the reaction to Waco was a perfect example of Clinton rules. Plus he was responsible for Ruby Ridge. Don’t quibble about dates.

  284. 284
    The Sheriff's A Ni- says:

    After today, I recommend reading this article even more:


  285. 285
    scav says:

    The more I witness the values of a good number of mercans, the less comfortable I am here. They talk a good talk about rule of law, etc etc, but are worthless at upholding it. This is just more tantrum throwing ‘you’re not the boss of me’ behavior.

  286. 286
    amk says:

    what a great judicial and political system. maga and all that shit, I guess.

  287. 287
    Mnemosyne says:


    its just incredibly frustrating that we have 12 people, who somehow believe that having armed people on your worksite, occupying your place of employment, 24/7 is somehow legitimate.

    If why didn’t the federal employees just keep going to work while armed protesters were there? isn’t the absolute stupidest thing I’ve heard today, it comes very, very close. One wonders what kind of brain damage someone has suffered to be confused about that point.

  288. 288
    WaterGirl says:

    @hovercraft: It’s probably uncivilized, but I wanted to write “fuck Chuck Schemer”.

    Leaving Schemer there because the autocorrect was just too perfect.

  289. 289
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @LAO: That’s about the best I could do too. I can’t even.

    Shows what we know. And of course I believe it’s clearly nullification in operation. Good thing I’d tapered off these last few weeks, or I’d be in big trouble withdrawal-wise.

  290. 290
    RK says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Because it’s perfectly fine with you for a White man to gun down an unarmed Black kid, right?

    No, because the evidence in relation to the relevant Florida law demanded the verdict he was given. You may want to acquaint yourself with the importance of public trial by jury.

  291. 291
    Vhh says:

    @dr. bloor: And sell the land to 1%ers from NYC for use as PRIVATE reserves, with trespassers to be shot.

  292. 292
    Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap says:

    A commenter posted this at LGM:

    It’s a real problem in our federal system that the trials have to be in the location of the crime and draw their juries from there. This was a real issue for federal attempts to fight the Klan during Reconstruction, even when the U.S. Attorneys took it to them local juries wouldn’t convict.

  293. 293
    hueyplong says:

    My first impulse is to say no about Lee, but Forrest definitely should have been hanged. He was a serious war criminal.

    People here talk about whether they can be friends with Trump supporters. I can’t maintain even a casual acquaintance with people who admire Nathan Bedford Forrest.

  294. 294
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Patricia Kayden: Pretty much as clear an illustration of white privilege as we’re going to see this week. And so many people overlook the indigenous as an embattled minority.

  295. 295
    Mike J says:

    @Tilda Swinton’s Bald Cap: Not just the Klan, that’s why none of the leaders of the slaveholder’s rebellion of 1860-1865 were ever tried for treason. They knew a Virginia jury would never convict.

  296. 296
    Eric U. says:

    @hovercraft: Waco was another one of the presents that GHWBush left Clinton, Somalia being the best, of course. They probably shouldn’t have convinced themselves to go in, just waited it out. And Ruby Ridge was a travesty of the first order, but that was all on the Bush admin.

    I think this verdict says that the feds need to be a lot more proactive about containing the standoffs. Cutting internet and power and supplies would be a good start. I don’t want people to die, but I don’t want them to do this sort of thing either. And we need to protect BLM workers against the harassment they are getting from local governments too. That is our land, I’m not ceding it to radicals without a fight.

  297. 297
    CarolDuhart2 says:


    🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨 more people have early voted in maryland on the first DAY than in the ENTIRE 2012 early voting period #RunUpTheScore— Oliver Willis (@owillis) October 28, 2016

  298. 298
    The Pale Scot says:


    and incinerate ’em

    Use VX gas, or just bombard the strong point with radiation ( x-rays ) like those other sovereigns tried to do.

  299. 299
    Miss Bianca says:

    @NickM: Oh, yeah, and it just gets “better” after that. Good old Hindenburg, Papen, et al. – “oh, we can control an obvious fascist nutjob and his private army! Don’t worry, he’ll do OUR bidding!”

    I’m just so sickened by this verdict, I can’t even snark properly tonight.

  300. 300
    Baud says:

    @CarolDuhart2: And Maryland is a safe state. But where is the enthusiasm? Her rallies are so small.

  301. 301
    jsrtheta says:

    @Baud: Why do you think the judge replaced that one juror? There went the lone holdout.

  302. 302
    Vhh says:

    @Soylent Green: The Feds should have changed the venue to a bluer location. I wonder if the Feds can try again with a civil rights charge and a civil suit for property damages.

  303. 303
    dr. bloor says:

    @hueyplong: For me, the argument for Lee isn’t that he was as sociopathic as Forrest–no one could have been–but that he was the West Point Golden Boy who knew exactly what he was doing when he chose Gray over Blue. No one could have been more surprised that he died of old age than he was.

  304. 304
    JanieM says:

    Question for lawyers, or, well, anyone who knows the answer: does a jury have to say out loud that nullification is what they’re doing? My impression (probably formed by watching movies; I’ve never been on a jury) is that they don’t have to give a rationale for a verdict.


  305. 305
    Baud says:

    @jsrtheta: Don’t know. I haven’t been following it closely since I assumed it was an open and shut case.

  306. 306
    Baud says:

    @JanieM: No rationale needed. Just a decision.

  307. 307
    JanieM says:

    @Baud: Thanks.

  308. 308
    WaterGirl says:

    @Baud: Can a judge overturn a jury decision because it was based on nullification? I’ve seen that happen on TV more than once, wondering if that’s really a thing or if it’s just TV.

  309. 309
    Oldgold says:

    In a matter such as this, I would have tried them one at a time for trespass and destruction of government property.And, sh*t-canned the conspiracy theory. K.I.S.S.

  310. 310
    Pinksnapdragon says:

    @Amaranthine RBG: As a retired federal employee I can only say: Are you fucking crazy? Under what circumstance would any employer send an employee into a facility that has been taken over by armed invaders?

  311. 311
  312. 312
    raven says:

    @JanieM: I was on a jury that went against the instructions of the judge. We didn’t have to say anything but not guilty but I knew the prosecutor and talked to him later. He asked how we could do it and I asked how the fuck he could put a particular witness on the stand?

  313. 313
    Soylent Green says:

    @Vhh: There’s no bluer venue than Portland. But the jury was selected from all over the state and not from here. As has been said, if you took Seattle and Portland out of Washington and Oregon, both states would be Idaho.

  314. 314
  315. 315
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @WaterGirl: No.

  316. 316
    raven says:

    @WaterGirl: My nullification experience was in Champaign County.

  317. 317
    Mnemosyne says:


    It’s true, under Florida law you can pretty much kill anyone you want to, claim after the fact that you felt “threatened,” and walk away scott free. The Martin case wasn’t even one of the more egregious ones — this man went to his ex-wife’s house with a gun, sent her fleeing, and killed her boyfriend. He was acquitted, because the judge agreed that under the law, he was justified in killing someone he felt threatened by even though he was the one who had gone to the house with a gun.

    The fact that you seem to be A-OK with the fact that Florida has legalized cold-blooded murder as long as the killer can convince a judge that he was scared is a whole different problem.

  318. 318
    WaterGirl says:

    @Baud: @Oldgold: @Omnes Omnibus: You guys are all so succinct! :-) thank you

  319. 319
    LAO says:

    @WaterGirl: tv. Judge can only reverse a conviction not an acquittal.

  320. 320
    TS says:

    @Soylent Green:

    so took the easy way out

    They took the white way out – just as easy if they had all said guilty. Only person who wanted guilty was taken off the jury..

  321. 321
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:


    the DA had a role in picking that jury

    I know I’m late to the party here, but this is another time when I need to explain that “picking a jury” is a misleading phrase. The attorneys for the government and defense – or plaintiff and defendant in civil cases – in fact “un-pick” a jury. There’s a pool of potential jurors and out of that group, individuals get started in chairs as potential jurors randomly and respond to questions from counsel for each party. Both sides have a limited number of what are called peremptory challenges to remove potential jurors “just because,” and no reason need be given. There are also challenges for cause, when counsel ask that a potential juror be stricken because a response indicates bias, but challenges for cause are difficult to make successfully.

    That’s a giant oversimplification, but the bottom line is you don’t “pick a jury” but rather try to eliminate the potentially troublesome prospects to the extent you can. Also, too, not every court will permit counsel/the media to query jurors post trial – – it’s not legally required that a judge allow it, and either way a juror is not required to explain anything to anyone. Though they are free to do so if they wish.

  322. 322
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @LAO: Stop over-explaining.

  323. 323
    WaterGirl says:

    @raven: Interesting!

    My take is that nullification is a good thing when the jury gets it right and a really bad thing when they don’t. Gets it right = justice is served. Yes, I realize that is in the eye of the beholder.

  324. 324
    CarolDuhart2 says:

    @dr. bloor: My take is that the decision was a reward for him not taking his soldiers into a guerilla war. That leaving Lee alone would help his men go home and obey the law. It’s hard to second-guess Grant’s decision. But without Lee’s leadership, any attempt to revive the rebellion was moot. Yes, no win by conventional means, but there could have been a slow boil.

  325. 325
    WaterGirl says:

    @LAO: @Omnes Omnibus: hahaha

    Actually, I thought that was interesting. You can reverse a conviction but not an acquittal. Seems like there is a certain wisdom to that.

    edit: *but only if you trust the judge.

    edit: silly me, until Bush v. Gore in 2000, I thought judges were actually non-partisan. Learning that lesson was a kick in the gut.

  326. 326
    Mnemosyne says:


    Under what circumstance would any employer send an employee into a facility that has been taken over by armed invaders?

    But you see, in ARBG’s world, people who walk around carrying guns never actually use them, so having armed strangers in your office is perfectly safe. No need to be alarmed at all. Until, of course, they decide to shoot you, but then the argument magically switches to saying that you should have known that person was one of the Bad Ones before you showed up for work that day, but there’s still no reason to think that armed people standing around your workplace are any danger to you. Until they are, and then you should have known that ahead of time.

    It’s some catch, that catch-22.

  327. 327
    The Pale Scot says:


    The people buying up the land will be east coast financiers.

    More likely the Saud family or the Chinese, they are buying up food production all over the world

  328. 328
    hueyplong says:

    @ WaterGirl

    It’s just TV.

    Ammon has another trial coming. The prosecutors will go to school on what happened. The judge didn’t release him after the verdict because of the next trial (presumably his flight risk), causing his defense lawyer to melt down.

    These guys were exposed and held up to ridicule. Today is a temporary setback and the cost of having an altogether great concept of a jury trial system. The right things will happen in the end.

    There are a few people in Mississippi and Alabama who can tell you about some instances of jury nullification causing a lot more harm than giving temporary succor to a bunch of clowns (who didn’t actually kill anyone in OR).

    We’re good. Go vote if you haven’t already.

  329. 329
    Ruckus says:

    The world should be fair. Teaching you that is not wrong. Now if she tried to teach you that the world is fair that’s a different issue altogether.

  330. 330
    Peale says:

    @Eric U.: yep. It’s amazing to me how many people assume that Ruby Ridge happened under Clinton. It didn’t. Waco started three weeks before Janet Reno took over Justice. Although she made bad descisions that are on that administration. fast and furious started in 2006.

  331. 331
    WaterGirl says:

    @hueyplong: I hope you’re right!

    I voted a week or two ago.

  332. 332
    redshirt says:

    I’m ready for Civil War 2 up here in my mountain compound.

  333. 333
    raven says:

    @WaterGirl: I had another one here where they used “similar transaction” in a really nasty rape. The dude had beaten and raped several women and they testified. He had a 15 year gap in his record and some people on the jury thought he had reformed. I said” you people are nuts, he was in jail”. After it was over I learned that he was indeed. My lawyer friends don’t like “similar transaction” but I don’t think we would have convicted him with out it. He got life plus 120 and didn’t bat a funky eye, Three hots and a cot I guess.

  334. 334
  335. 335
    Soylent Green says:

    @redshirt: I’m actually wondering if I should become a prepper to defend myself from the preppers.

  336. 336
    WaterGirl says:

    @Ruckus: Good point, and interesting question. She instilled an expectation that the world should be and would be fair.

    Hey, I was fast skimming 2 days of threads because I was away from BJ on Tuesday and Wednesday. What’s this about you packing up and moving?

  337. 337
    hueyplong says:

    @WaterGirl: Good job. Anti-Trump vote banked. Think about how irritated Ammon is going to be, watching Hillary get inaugurated from a jail cell or else huddled around other paranoid types in a “compound” in the uninhabitable part of a western state.

  338. 338
    Corner Stone says:

    Why am I seeing Joke Line on my MSNBC channel?

  339. 339
    JR in WV says:


    OK, name three.

    And remember about judges. we have former Chief Justice of the State of Alabama, Roy Moore, dismissed from his position for installing a monument to the Ten Commandments, and refusing to allow Alabama officials from marrying same-sex couples. Roy was elected to the Alabama Supreme Court repeatedly.

    You want your case heard by a guy like that? Puh-lease ~ !!!

  340. 340
    WaterGirl says:

    @raven: I’ve never heard it called that, but I think that similar transactions are very relevant. How can you ask juries to arrive at a reasonable verdict if you hid half the information?

    I bet you are interesting to be on a jury with. You probably don’t take any crap and have a practical perspective.

  341. 341
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @RK: This.is.a.sign.you.are.not.SANE

  342. 342
  343. 343

    @Peale: to be honest if you asked me who was president for ruby ridge I would have said Clinton. Of course I was 7 at the time.

  344. 344
    CarolDuhart2 says:

    @ElectProject @kkondik Record numbers in Franklin County for the Democrats. https://t.co/BYxvUKlfR9— Just plain (@1652Sammy) October 27, 2016

  345. 345
    RK says:


    The fact that you seem to be A-OK with the fact that Florida has legalized cold-blooded murder as long as the killer can convince a judge that he was scared

    Lol You may want to brush up on your reading comprehension. Becoming acquainted with the facts of the case and the law may be a good idea as well.

  346. 346
    Villago Delenda Est says:


    It’s some catch, that catch-22.

    The best there is!

  347. 347
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @efgoldman: You missed the joke. See comment 320.

  348. 348
  349. 349
    redshirt says:

    @Mike J: Camp is a shack on stilts by the lake deep, deep in the woods. Everyone in Canada, for example, has a camp or knows someone who has a camp and they can hang out at.

  350. 350
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @RK: Given that if you’re female and blah and make the same assertions ZImmerman did, but with a lot more credibility, and you’re sent to jail, it seems you’re a fucktard.

  351. 351
    WaterGirl says:

    @hueyplong: Funny that you should say anti-Trump vote. That’s what i would have predicted 3 months ago, voting against Trump while holding my nose. I’m still not her biggest fan, but I think Hillary is better than I have given her credit for in the past. I think she could be a good president, at least on domestic policy. Still concerned about her foreign policy. But she doesn’t grate on me like she did before and I no longer actively dislike her. Progress!

    I wonder how many people were influenced by the incessant over-the-top attacks on Clinton.

  352. 352
    Soylent Green says:

    @hueyplong: I’m no longer persuaded that the Nevada jury won’t set Ammon free.

  353. 353
    sigaba says:

    @dr. bloor: Lee is a good example of the old saying that it’s better to be a banker who goes bankrupt in a conventional way, than a banker who gets rich in an unconventional way.

  354. 354
    Ruckus says:

    Can’t say I agree with your conclusion. But then again I can’t disagree with it either. Way, way too many white people are fucking assholes, at the very least. Many of them are far worse. And I have no idea what to do about that. I thought it was getting better quite a few yrs ago. One more thing in the “Boy was I fucking wrong column.”

  355. 355
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @RK: I’ve noted before that you aren’t very bright.

    @redshirt: You don’t have a bunker; it’s a camp.

  356. 356
    CarolDuhart2 says:

    @The Pale Scot: And if anything, they will be even less inclined to give in to the Bundys of the world, not living here or sharing anything else with them. The rural way of life they love so much only exists because the Feds have bought up the property and prevented development, and the tourist income allows people to actually remain in those places on a permanent basis. Think Vail in terms of privatization. Yes, the trees are there, but so are condos and chalets far too expensive for the locals to live in. The Bundys could intimidate Federal workers who work for modest pay. They could inltimidate Native Americans who just want to enjoy native lands. No dice against land buyers who could hire a few Xe mercenaries and far outbid Bundys who would be foreclosed on in a New York minute.

  357. 357
    Mnemosyne says:


    Becoming acquainted with the facts of the case and the law may be a good idea as well.

    I am familiar with both. When they passed “stand your ground,” Florida legalized murder, because they removed the very important language we have here in California that says you cannot claim justifiable homicide if you were the one to start the fight. In Florida, it doesn’t matter who started the fight and whoever survives can successfully claim immunity, which is why the adult who followed a teenage boy in his car and then got out of it to confront him was able to successfully claim that he was the real victim.

    As I said, you seem to be okay with that. I am not.

  358. 358

    @Mnemosyne: didn’t Zimmerman not invoke SYG in his defense?

  359. 359
    CarolDuhart2 says:

    @WaterGirl: I still think she is more thoughtful than not when it comes to Foreign Policy. The same cautiousness will serve her well at times. In any event, I don’t expect a fiasco like G-Dub’s war in Iraq.

  360. 360
    redshirt says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I never said bunker, I said compound. And why would you bring this up again? You were wrong before.

  361. 361
    hueyplong says:

    @WaterGirl: I only said “anti-Trump” because I was speaking to your state of upset with today’s RWNJ news out of Oregon. Had originally typed “Clinton vote” but changed it.

    I’m definitely pro-Clinton as well as extremely anti-Trump.

  362. 362
    Botsplainer says:

    @Soylent Green:

    I’ve printed up maps to the houses of known old fat white wingnuts- I figure I’ll just go seize their prepped shit.

  363. 363
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    It’s written into the self-defense clause of the law now. All someone has to claim in Florida is that they felt their life was threatened by the person they killed, and the jury instructions are that they should be acquitted.

    (Edited above for clarity)

    What Zimmermann did was waive having a Stand Your Ground immunity hearing, which is a different thing.

  364. 364
    redshirt says:

    @Botsplainer: Maps of the Prepper Stars.

  365. 365
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @redshirt: Lack of bunker precludes compound. FWIW, the Kennedys had a bunker at Hyannis Port.

  366. 366
    Botsplainer says:


    Let’s see them roll their fatty scooters around the house to different firing positions when they can’t recharge because the electricity is out…

  367. 367
    redshirt says:

    @Botsplainer: GO TO MANUAL OVERIDE!
    WE CAN’T!
    WHY NOT?!

  368. 368
    WaterGirl says:

    @CarolDuhart2: We’ll have to agree to disagree on your first two sentences. I don’t trust Hillary’s foreign policy instincts the way I do Obama’s. I don’t think you are right, but I hope you are. I would be glad to be proven wrong on this. Time will tell.

  369. 369
    redshirt says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Bah. Your Midwestern pedantic semantics don’t apply to an East coast elite like me.

  370. 370
    Ruckus says:

    Not packing up and moving, I’ve got stuff that I’d like to sell, tools that I’ll never used again, that type of thing. Like an iMac 21 1/2 in, works great, runs the latest OS but I bought a 27 in so I can zoom everything and don’t need glasses to see it. Stuff like that. Of course when I actually retire I’ll have to move, I won’t be able to afford to live where I do on SS alone and the things that I had thought I’d do when I retired to make some side money, doesn’t look like I’ll be physically able to accomplish because of health issues. So I’ve got that going for me.

  371. 371
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @redshirt: You’re a swamp yankee, not an East coast elite. You live in a backwoods camp in rural Maine. Go build a bunker.

  372. 372
    burnspbesq says:


    The Feds should have changed the venue to a bluer location.

    Article III, Section 2, paragraph 3.

  373. 373
    redshirt says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: LOL. Sometimes you can simulate having a sense of humor!

  374. 374
    liberal says:

    @Mnemosyne: That’s exactly right. They legalized murder. There is currently no just order in the state of FL.

  375. 375
    RK says:

    @Mnemosyne: Zimmerman had a standard self-defense defense; if you knew the case you’d know that. And if you knew the facts you’d know he met that standard. Which is to say nothing of the prosecution’s case turning out to be one for the defense.

  376. 376
    WaterGirl says:

    @Ruckus: Ah, okay. Good for you! I don’t think you can go wrong doing that. I thought I had missed something big.

    I went through everything I had after the tree crashed on the house 3 years ago and got rid of a lot of stuff. Then I went through everything again a year or 18 months ago, got rid of some more nice stuff that I didn’t need. It felt pretty good. I probably need to do it again at some point.

  377. 377
    frosty fred says:

    @dr. bloor: I have no more use for Marse Robert than the next one, but I’m five years older than he was when he died, so it doesn’t look like old age from here.

  378. 378
    burnspbesq says:


    It is possible to concede that a jury correctly applied a fucked-up law. Are you actually contending that Florida’s stand-your-ground law is anything but deeply fucked up? If so, please explain the basis for that contention.

  379. 379
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @RK: Stop trying to derail the thread. You are wrong on the facts and the law. The only reason you are bring it up is to distract from today’s legal fuck up. I honestly hope you are getting paid. Doing what you do as for free would be to sad to contemplate.

  380. 380
    The Pale Scot says:

    @CarolDuhart2: Fur shure. They say the feds should give the land to the states, and then the state should give the “back”? to the people. Wouldn’t that be to the Paiutes?

    Oh, Yea…

    The Burns Paiute tribal council had told ICTMN in an earlier interview that the entire U.S. Fish and Wildlife staff have been ordered to stay home for their own safety.

  381. 381
    JR in WV says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I always want to scream and shout when I hear a TV reporter tell the world that a jury finds someone “Innocent” of some crime. NONONONO They didn’t !!!

    Not guilty and innocent are not synonyms at all. Having been on several criminal and civil juries, and having an interest in legal findings, I have at least gained that much knowledge.

  382. 382
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @JR in WV: The only place innocence comes into play is our presumption of innocence which puts the burden of proof on the prosecution.

  383. 383
    🐾BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @Mnemosyne: You see, armed people in your office are not a problem because you’re also armed. An armed society is a polite society*.

    *This message has been brought to you by your friends at the National Rifle Association.

  384. 384
    RK says:


    Soon after Mr. Zimmerman was arrested, there appeared to be a chance that the defense would invoke a provision of Florida self-defense law known as Stand Your Ground. Ultimately it was not part of Mr. O’Mara’s courtroom strategy,

    Dan Abrams:

    The controversial section of that law relates to the fact that there is no “duty to retreat,” meaning that in non-stand your ground states one must, in most cases, first attempt to get away if he or she can.

    In Florida, however, there is no such requirement and the shooter may “stand his or her ground” when firing in self defense.

    But the duty to retreat was not an issue in either Dunn or Zimmerman. In both cases the defendants argued that deadly force was used because they “reasonably” believed that it was necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily injury. That, is at its core, no different than the law in almost every other state.

    Zimmerman claimed Trayvon Martin was pummeling him and Dunn that he had a shotgun pointed at him by a young man saying “I’m going to kill you.” If Dunn’s account were true — and it was contradicted by other witnesses — then retreat hardly seems like an option.

    Regardless of what one thinks of the defenses (and because of Zimmerman’s injuries and the testimony of eyewitnesses, his defense was far stronger legally than Dunn’s claim, which was only supported by his own testimony) the controversial aspect of the law was hardly the issue.

  385. 385
    Amaranthine RBG says:


    No, Zimmerman didn’t assert the SYG defense at trial either.

    I explained this to you again and again while the trial was happening but you continue to float around in your own imaginary little world.

  386. 386
    RK says:

    @Amaranthine RBG: They appear to be saying it didn’t matter what was argued because the SYG instruction was read regardless. What they don’t understand (because they obviously don’t know the facts of the case) is that SYG was irrelevant to Zimmerman’s defense.

  387. 387
    catbirdman says:

    I wonder how many jury members feared for their lives if they came down on the gun nuts. The comments of those observing suggested a level of hostility against any aspect of the system that might actually do its job properly. I don’t know how comfy I’d be handing down an 11-year sentence against one of those wackos, if I lived up in that region.

  388. 388
    OGLiberal says:

    If this gang of idiots had been black/brown/Muslim – something other than white – there wouldn’t have been a trial…they’d be dead, shot up by various LE agencies. This is a freaking disgrace. That jury can eat a bag of you know whats.

  389. 389
    low-tech cyclist says:


    @Mnemosyne: You see, armed people in your office are not a problem because you’re also armed. An armed society is a polite society*.

    *This message has been brought to you by your friends at the National Rifle Association.

    Has anyone ever asked Wayne LaPierre why our inner cities during the 1980s weren’t the most polite, well-mannered places on earth?

  390. 390
    No One You Know says:

    I’m livid and helpless. I live here in Oregon. All I can say is that the Bundys must have indeed been judged by their peers, and we are less safe because of this.

  391. 391
    Aleta says:

    @catbirdman: That’s a good point.

    Gun supremacists.

  392. 392
    Ab_Normal says:

    @Soylent Green:
    I live in Spokane and I’m not arguing with you.

Comments are closed.