Bundy Bunch Update: The Trial Begins


(Worst Episode of Hollywood Squares Ever!)

Much to LAO and Bella Q’s delight, the trial for the remaining defendants – as in those who hadn’t pled out or had their charges dropped – in the Bundy family led Malheur National Wildlife Refuge Occupation began this week in Federal Court in Oregon. The lines to get in were long! The Prosecution opened up their case today, delineating how the Bundys and several of their codefendants had carefully planned their actions and that they were in clear violation of numerous Federal laws.

Barrow, during opening statements in the long-anticipated Oregon standoff trial, used Ammon Bundy’s own words caught on video Jan. 2 to argue that Bundy and his co-defendants aren’t being prosecuted for holding a political protest, but for leading an armed occupation of the refuge.

He played a video of Bundy standing atop a snowbank in the Safeway parking lot in Burns in his blue plaid flannel jacket and cowboy hat, declaring, “Those who understand what has happened here … I’m asking you to follow me to the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. We’re going to make a hard stand. … We’re going to insist the Constitution be protected here in this country.”

“We are not prosecuting the defendants because they don’t like the government,” Barrow said. “In Ammon Bundy’s words, ‘This was much more than a protest.’ They were taking a ‘hard stand.’ ”

One of Ammon Bundy’s attorney’s, however, laid out a competing argument to justify his clients actions:

Marcus Mumford, a lawyer for Ammon Bundy, told the court that the peaceful demonstration was an effort to draw attention to the federal government’s illegal control and mismanagement of public lands. He said Bundy was attempting to use a provision of the law known as adverse possession to retake land improperly seized by the federal government many decades ago.

“The government has been squatting on this land for years, illegally and contrary to how (the U.S.) Congress intended,” Mumford said in a telephone interview on Monday.

We’ll be checking in all week, in between restocking the Balloon Juice Bunker – just in case… Those of you readers in NY and Ohio that are on LAO and Bella Q watch – please confirm receipt of your schedules and acknowledge your shift assignments in the comments!

158 replies
  1. 1
    Felonius Monk says:

    Cowboy boots or no cowboy boots? That is the question.

    ETA: No Balloon Juicers shall be injured during the Trial of the Bundys.

  2. 2
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    This is probably a really stupid question, but why does the penultimate, next-to-the-last, second-from-right guy NOT have a sheriff’s badge icon on his picture when everyone else does?

  3. 3
    Xenos says:

    Adverse possession against the government? This lawyer passed the bar exam somewhere?

  4. 4
    Mike J says:

    They all have seven pointed sheriff stars, except for the one guy. Shabbos goy?

  5. 5

    The core of the whole Bundy defense is that they didn’t do anything illegal because the government is not allowed to retain ownership of public lands for an indefinite period. They have been hunting for lawyers as batshit insane as them, but regardless, it’s their belief and the principle they demand to be tried on.

  6. 6
    Mike J says:


    This lawyer passed the bar exam somewhere?

    It doesn’t sound like he’s passed a bar of any kind in his life.

  7. 7
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Xenos: One goes to trial with the arguments one has, not the arguments one wants.

  8. 8
    Felonius Monk says:


    This lawyer passed the bar exam somewhere?

    Prolly, Public Defender. You get what you pay for.

  9. 9
    JPL says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: So the argument is that they own it?

  10. 10
    phantomist says:

    What happened to the old man? Plead out or had his charges dropped or still in court?

  11. 11
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: @Mike J: The photos are from their mugshots. All the one’s with the badges were booked in and mugshot at the Multnomah County Jail in Oregon. The guy without was picked up, booked, and mugshot somewhere else and then transferred to the Multnomah County Jail.

  12. 12
  13. 13
    LAO says:

    @phantomist: Cliven charged in Neveda case, not this one.

  14. 14

    Their argument is that the people own it in some nebulous way, and it should be sold or given to private ownership. Or even better, the government can just shut up and let them do what they want without having to pay attention to who owns what. Mainly, it’s that the government cannot legally own that land, and once they prove this constitutionally in court the case against them will have to be dropped.

  15. 15
    LAO says:

    @Felonius Monk: private, retained counsel, who shares Ammon’s political views.

  16. 16
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Well, thanks. That is far more pedestrian than I was hoping for.

  17. 17
    phantomist says:

    @LAO: Thanks

  18. 18
    lollipopguild says:

    The argument will be that the Federal Gov. is illegal and does not have the right to exist much less own land.

  19. 19
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @phantomist: His trial will be in Federal Court in Nevada. That trial will be after this one concludes. Also, Pete Santilli (bottom right) had his charges dropped in the Malheur case. Apparently the prosecutorial strategy is that they have a better case against him for Bunkerville, so he will be tried in that case in Nevada after the current trial concludes.

  20. 20
    patroclus says:

    That “lawyer” and his sons compose and play a lot of really good music though.

  21. 21
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Felonius Monk: Most public defenders are people who chose a comparatively low-paid job where they are given have heavy case loads and inadequate resources.

  22. 22
    opiejeanne says:

    Adam:, thank you for posting this! I’m a Malheur junkie.

    (Also “pleaded” for past tense of “to plead”. Pled is accepted these days. )

  23. 23
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: The boots are made for walking… Even if its just to and from the defense table in the courtroom.

  24. 24
    Felonius Monk says:


    who shares Ammon’s political views.

    Some people will do anything for a buck, I guess.

    BTW, what does Adam mean by this:

    you readers in NY and Ohio that are on LAO and Bella Q watch

    Is it supposed to be like an intervention in case you two OD on this trial stuff?

  25. 25
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @efgoldman: Its a jury trial. They were able to select one last week. What’ll be interesting to see, and LAO and Bella Q and Omnes can chime in, as well as Burnes and others, is whether they ultimately try jury nullification. That appears to be a gigantically favorable concept in the ideological circles that these people live in.

  26. 26
    LAO says:

    @Felonius Monk: I’m not sure. Probably.

  27. 27
    LAO says:

    @efgoldman: the issue was litigates pre-trial, the judge is permitting it on the limited issue do the defendants state of mind (as a defense). Which I find ridiculous.

  28. 28
  29. 29

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Right. Rather than proving they didn’t do it, they want to prove that what they did was legal, because of their fucked up interpretation of the constitution. Their whole intent from the beginning was to force the government to give up all its public land, either by sparking a revolution or by trial. Given that their legal theories are laughable and deranged, this should be fun.

  30. 30
    phantomist says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Thanks, also too.

  31. 31
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @efgoldman: The prosecution will shred it.

  32. 32
    opiejeanne says:

    @Felonius Monk: Some of the lawyers aren’t PD, some are Sovereign Citizen nutcases, and some are representing themselves. Ryan has been making the judge nuts about representing himself because he is clearly an idiot; last week he tried to fire the PD assigned to “assist” him, which he is not allowed to do.

  33. 33
    Epicurus says:

    A proper response to the opening statement by the defense would be something along the lines of:

    Now who can argue with that? I think we’re all indebted to Gabby Johnson for clearly stating what needed to be said. I’m particularly glad that these lovely children were here today to hear that speech. Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, it expressed a courage little seen in this day and age.

  34. 34
    LAO says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I hate to admitted it but jury nullification is a fairly popular concept amongst defense attorneys. (Me included).

  35. 35
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Felonius Monk: @LAO: And, federal public defenders tend to be extremely capable counsel. More competent than many privately retained federal counsel. Except not moreso than LAO, of course.

    @Felonius Monk: I suspect that to be the case as well. Someone might want to keep an eye on Steve in the ATL also, too.

  36. 36
    Anoniminous says:

    How much time are these fine upstanding citizens facing when they will inevitably be found guilty?

  37. 37
    opiejeanne says:

    @LAO: It was pretty slick how they got Cliven; he got on a plane to Portland instead of driving with his bodyguards, so they were all unarmed and on the plane the U.S. marshals separated them, arrested all of them at the Portland airport as they got off the plane. I think Michele Fiore was the one who convinced him that he needed to be in Portland. We laughed.

  38. 38
    LAO says:

    @efgoldman: If I could bill for the time I’ve spent reading the pre-trial motions, I’d be set for life. 😉

  39. 39
    Felonius Monk says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I believe most Public Defenders are hard working and conscientious and do their utmost best for their clients. But there are certainly enough instances on the record where some have done poorly by their clients. I was hoping the Court in this case might have rounded up a group of legal rejects to defend these Bundy Gang idiots to counter some of the bullshit that they are going to be throwing during this trial. Sort of a counter Illegitimis non carborundum. :-)

  40. 40
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: I’m sure it is.

  41. 41
    LAO says:

    @opiejeanne: I rarely root for the DOJ (occupational hazard) but I cheered. It was pretty slick.

  42. 42
    LAO says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Agreed. Federal Defenders rock and CJA counsel is generally equally capable.

  43. 43
    Felonius Monk says:

    I still haven’t seen an answer. Has there been a ruling on the Cowboy Boots?

  44. 44
    opiejeanne says:

    @efgoldman: They have a jury. I think there are 10 alternates so the trial will not be disrupted by loss of jurors for whatever reason.

  45. 45
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @LAO:Hell, if I could bill for half the time I’ve spent on this case I’d be doing great. Now, who can we get to pay us?

  46. 46
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Felonius Monk:

    But there are certainly enough instances on the record where some have done poorly by their clients.

    That is true of private counsel as well. I don’t mean to harp on this, but that particular glib joke yanks my chain.*

    *FTR I have never been a public defender at any level, but when I was clerking I saw the work that they did. And the unjustified shit that they get all the time.

  47. 47
    LAO says:

    @efgoldman: yes. As Omnes said earlier, you go to trial with the case you have, not the one you want.

    Sometimes, when the government overreaches, juries get offended and acquit defendants to send a message.

  48. 48
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Felonius Monk: Yes, they can wear them.

  49. 49
  50. 50
    Mnemosyne says:


    the issue was litigates pre-trial, the judge is permitting it on the limited issue do the defendants state of mind (as a defense). Which I find ridiculous.

    As a layperson, when I hear “state of mind,” I think the defense is trying to set up some kind of insanity defense. Is that just too many episodes of “Law & Order” talking?

    Note that I am prejudiced by the fact that I think that declaring oneself a “sovereign citizen” should be enough evidence to get one a 72-hour psychiatric hold, at a minimum.

  51. 51
    Felonius Monk says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: No offense intended.

  52. 52
    FlyingToaster (Tablet) says:

    Why is Ritzheimer (the one without the star) still on trial?

    I thought Daddy took a plea?

  53. 53
    jsrtheta says:

    That is not what “adverse possession” means. Not even close.

    Now, “trespass,” that’s more like it.

  54. 54
    Aleta says:

    Maxine Bernstein’s twitter is a good place to follow while court is in session.

  55. 55
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Felonius Monk:

    Is it supposed to be like an intervention in case you two OD on this trial stuff?

    Yes. SATSQ. ;-)

  56. 56
    Mary G says:

    Is this expected to be a long trial? They each have their own attorney, who has to cross examine every witness?

  57. 57
    divF says:

    @Felonius Monk: I’ve seen this performed live multiple times in the last few years.

  58. 58
    opiejeanne says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Thanks. I found another site with similar comments about “pled”.

    On a not-very-related note, have you noticed that suddenly everyone has forgotten that the past tense of “to lead” is “led”? People are using “lead” ( pronounced like the metal) for the past tense. Yes, I was an English major (nerd) at one point.

  59. 59
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    The boots are made for walking…

    One of these days ….

  60. 60
    Aleta says:

    @FlyingToaster (Tablet): If I remember, with the plea he had some charge dropped but not all of them. I could be wrong.

  61. 61
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    That makes me insane. Thanks for flagging it.

  62. 62
    Felonius Monk says:


    everyone has forgotten that the past tense of “to lead” is “led”? People are using “lead” ( pronounced like the metal) for the past tense.

    Direct effect of the Charter School movement.

  63. 63
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @FlyingToaster (Tablet): Cliven isn’t under charges for anything involving the Malheur Occupation. He is facing charges for being a deadbeat parasite and the standoff at the Nevada ranch.

  64. 64
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @FlyingToaster (Tablet): He did take a plea for the current case. Its just the graphic I grabbed.

  65. 65
    LAO says:

    @Mnemosyne: it has to do with criminal intent. here’s a link explaining.

    Although I agree with you about declarations of Sovereign Citizenship.

  66. 66
    Aleta says:

    @Mary G: 9 weeks estimated

  67. 67
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: If you call me Alice…

  68. 68
    LAO says:

    @Mary G: Short answer yes.

  69. 69
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    Totally unrelated to anything else: Am I the only person on the planet who really doesn’t like Barbra Streisand? Because I’ve tried, for 40 years or so, and I just can’t, don’t, and never will.

    Hate me if you must.

  70. 70
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Aleta: He pled out to the Oregon related charges. He will still either be tried or will plead out, like Delemus and several others, for the Bunkerville, Nevada charges.

  71. 71
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: She does very little for me.

  72. 72
    piratedan says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): the NY Times, just tell them its related to the Clinton Foundation and e-mails

  73. 73
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    To the moon? I’m enjoying the Sinatra père et fille /Honeymooners mashup.

  74. 74
    MomSense says:


    My mom once confessed to me that she has really tried but just doesn’t like Barbra Streisand. Then she remembered that she did like one song-Wind Beneath My Wings. We both laughed when I told her that was a Bette Midler song.

  75. 75
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Felonius Monk: I know.

  76. 76
    divF says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: I mostly agree. However, for me she does occasionally have her moments. “So Long Dearie” in “Hello, Dolly” was one.

  77. 77
    opiejeanne says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Today: Ryan introducing himself to jury. Hello it is nice to be here. Well not really
    Ryan Bundy ” we weren’t there to break the law but to enforce the law”

  78. 78
    Aleta says:

    @Felonius Monk: I quickly read some article about A and R asking the judge to let them ditch their (assigned) loafers, and wear more cowboy gear so’s to ease their aching identities, but she told them they would be fine with the clothes they had on.

  79. 79
    FlyingToaster (Tablet) says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Link to the article about the remaining defendants.

  80. 80
    debbie says:


    She and I had the same massage therapist. I was told she’s a very insecure woman.

  81. 81
    Omnes Omnibus says:


    Wind Beneath My Wings

    I hate that song with the fire of a thousand suns.

  82. 82
    Anoniminous says:


    She doesn’t do much for me either. For that genre I prefer the Swedish Sonja Alden.


    Every vocalist is insecure, comes with the territory.

  83. 83
  84. 84
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Not one of my faves, but I don’t hate it with the level of intensity that I do “Feelings” or that Lee Greenwood garbage.

  85. 85
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @MomSense: I didn’t put it in my response, but I’ve always preferred Bette Middler.

  86. 86
    opiejeanne says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: One of the observers* in the courtroom said that those represented by PDs did pretty well today, the ones with their own attorneys, not so much.

    * Bundy Court Sketches @hecktow

  87. 87
    BBA says:

    Good news from here in the 65th AD of New York: Sheldon Silver’s protege went down in flames.

  88. 88
    Mnemosyne says:


    True story: Bette Midler is just as Hawaiian as Barack Obama is.

  89. 89
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: It was played like three times an hour on Armed Forces Radio in the run up to the Persian Gulf War. Their format seemed like it was bad pop/country song, Wind Beneath my Wings, I’m Proud to be an American, repeat.

  90. 90
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @opiejeanne: Defending the idiotic ideology of these twits is going to sink them. This is where the PDs have an advantage. They’re actually focusing on the charges, not the hare-brained rationale behind the actions of the defendants.

  91. 91
    Mnemosyne says:


    So, basically, their lawyers are trying to claim that they didn’t really mean to take over the refuge, it was just a protest that got out of hand?

  92. 92
    EBT says:

    But there was already a supreme Court case about the land that malheur is on.

  93. 93
    trollhattan says:

    @Felonius Monk:
    Charter schools with led in the water.

  94. 94
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    Funny story! Yes, I like Bette Midler a lot. Will never forget her serenading Johnny Carson on his last night hosting The Tonight Show, singing “One for my Baby, and One More for the Road.”

  95. 95
    LAO says:

    @Mnemosyne: so it appears. A lawful attempt to enforce an adverse possession claim that was misunderstood. (Even though property owned by the federal government is not subject to adverse possession claims).

  96. 96
    hovercraft says:

    Did you see this version of Send In The Clowns lampooning the Donald Friday night? If not enjoy.

  97. 97
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    She shows up pretty often in online word games under the “famous Hawaiians” category.

  98. 98
    MomSense says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I loved her Continental bathhouse concerts with Barry Manilow playing piano.

  99. 99
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    I still don’t like BS, but that’s a good parody. Thanks!

  100. 100
    rawhide rawlins says:

    But Cliven took CHARGE of Malheur!

  101. 101
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Or “People.” UUUGGHHH!!

  102. 102
    Mnemosyne says:


    The flags in the Supreme Court had gold fringe on them, so it doesn’t count.

  103. 103
    opiejeanne says:

    @Felonius Monk: Most of these are people too old to have been in charter schools. There was, however, a movement to the early 90s to eliminate spelling tests, to stop stressing teaching spelling; this was in some California schools, coming from on high in some districts. Some older teachers ignored this nonsense and continued to teach it, but they were under a lot of pressure from their principals. It was DUMB.

  104. 104
    Tom says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: When we were dating, my wife once sang “You are the Wind Beneath My Feet.” I love that woman!

  105. 105
    Felonius Monk says:

    I think most of these guys will walk or get off with a light slap.

  106. 106
  107. 107
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Tom: Was she levitating at the time? Because that would awesome.

  108. 108
    hovercraft says:

    Me neither. Though I do have a fondness for Hello Dolly. When I was a kid in the eighties, we lived in Ethiopia when it was a socialist country, there was only one night of english language TV, dubbed Russian movies. So we watched a lot of video taped movies, but the library was limited. I watched it probably hundreds of times, and can probably recite the lines verbatim. SAD !

  109. 109
    opiejeanne says:

    @Adam L Silverman: What was the outcome of the Facebook page captures? The Bundy group’s attorneys challenged it and there was supposed to be a judgement, but I missed it along with the all-important ruling on the cowboy boots (Lord, help me)

  110. 110
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: But…that’s Barbara! Her voice is like butter!

  111. 111
    waysel says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Did you ever hear NRBQ doing “People” live at the MOMA? It is to die for hilarious.

  112. 112
    Felonius Monk says:

    @opiejeanne: Same kind of problem in mathematics. Kids aren’t being taught how to do long division — the rationale being everybody uses a calculator for that now, so it’s not necessary.

  113. 113
    NoraLenderbee says:

    @Mike J:

    It doesn’t sound like he’s passed a bar of any kind in his life.

    . . . without going in for a couple of shots.


  114. 114
    Bruce Webb says:

    Since no one else chimed in. Jury nullification is an odd bird. Under Common Law there is no such thing, Jurors just don’t have the power to decide a given law is unjust. They are triers of fact and not judges of law. On the other hand if they just declare a Not Guilty verdict based on that belief the Court has little to no recourse. On the other hand I believe any attorney that actively made the case for Nullification would be subject to sanctions. So I guess the key is to dance around the question and hope the jury picks up the message.

    You can think of it as a kind of unpunishable civil disobedience. Juries just refuse to convict.

  115. 115
    jacy says:

    Colin Powell’s private emails regarding Trump have been leaked. He has confirmed it.

  116. 116
    opiejeanne says:

    @Aleta: One of them made a joke about the publicly issued shoes, calling them “urban loafers”. Judge Brown said she did not find that amusing.

  117. 117
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: How the hell can “the people” own the land if it’s not “government of, by and for the people”-owned land? Jesus Chicken-Fried Christ, with people this poignantly stupid abroad in this country, it’s little wonder to me that we’re currently facing a Trump candidacy.

    Thank God for chocolate. I don’t know how I’d survive the silly season otherwise.

  118. 118
    opiejeanne says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I heard that one and Bette’s “NnnnGod Is Watching Us” so many damned times at local talent shows that I could spit up. I liked it until then.

  119. 119
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Bruce Webb: No counsel would ever explicitly tell a jury that they should ignore the law. They can and do often argue that the situation the defendant is in is unjust. Or note that the particular law is unjust.

  120. 120
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @opiejeanne: Feds can use them, but the judge promised to yell at the prosecutors and make them feel bad.

    Here’s the link:

    Federal prosecutors in the Oregon standoff trial will be able to use Facebook account information on defendants obtained through a search warrant.

    But U.S. District Judge Anna J. Brown plans to admonish the federal government “for its lack of diligence” in failing to seal or quickly destroy the Facebook material deemed irrelevant to the case.

    With opening statements set to begin Tuesday morning, Brown on Monday told lawyers of her ruling, denying the defense motion to suppress the Facebook evidence.

    The judge is still completing her written order and opinion explaining her analysis…

  121. 121
    Miss Bianca says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): You’re back for Bundys! Yay! : )

  122. 122
  123. 123
    opiejeanne says:

    @Felonius Monk: I have no problem with kids being taught to use a calculator, but they need to understand the basics of how division, subtraction, addition, and all of the other stuff works or they will have little understanding of the answers they get.
    Are they learning multiplication tables up to at least 12 any more?

  124. 124
    opiejeanne says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I have not understood this from the get-go. The defendants posted stuff in plain sight on a public forum, so what is this nonsense about “improper handling” that she is describing as “not destroying unrelated..” ? Did she want them to make Facebook take down the posts? Or the comments?

  125. 125
  126. 126
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @opiejeanne: You’ll have to ask one of the lawyers, because the only thing I can make out is that the defense raised some sort of issues about how the prosecution handled the information.

  127. 127
  128. 128
    KS in MA says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: I like way she sings, but she has awful taste in material.

  129. 129
    Aleta says:

    @opiejeanne: Oh, here it is, from the ABA Journal:

    Ammon Bundy’s lawyer J. Morgan Philpot filed a motion on Tuesday that asked Brown to allow the brothers to dress in their traditional clothing, according to a prior story by the Oregonian. “These men are cowboys, and given that the jury will be assessing their authenticity and credibility, they should be able to present themselves to the jury in that manner,” he wrote.

    Philpot also asserted his position in court on Tuesday. “We would prefer our clients not look like disheveled slackers in front of the jury,” he said.

    Ammon Bundy was dressed in a gray suit with an open collar white shirt, loafers and white tennis socks. Ryan Bundy wore blue jeans, a brown leather vest, a white dress shirt and black loafers.

    Brown said Ammon Bundy was “dressed better than most people in the building” and disagreed with a lawyer’s assertion that the “urban loafers” he wore were comical.

  130. 130
    SoupCatcher says:

    Late to the thread, but that photo spread from your “The lines to get in were long!” link is comedy gold, Jerry.

    Here’s one illustrating one of my pet peeves. It’s the classic rookie protest mistake in all its three-column 12-point glory.

    * edited to fix 20 points worth of SAT mistakes.

  131. 131
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Aleta: They should be dressed in orange prison suits, which accurately reflects their status as criminals.

  132. 132
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @SoupCatcher: Thank you. Also, who’s Jerry?

  133. 133
    SoupCatcher says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Thank you. Also, who’s Jerry?

    That’s gold, Jerry! Gold!

  134. 134
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: They have not yet been convicted.

  135. 135
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @SoupCatcher: Okay, I didn’t watch the show. Thanks!

  136. 136
    Shalimar says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Feelings, the way God intended it to be butchered.

  137. 137
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Details.

  138. 138
    JustRuss says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: Heh, I knew where that link was going before I clicked it. And damn straight about Trump/Lauer.

    In a perfect world, Hilary would memorize that and deliver it at a critical juncture during their first debate….assuming there is one.

  139. 139
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Constitution and shit. Before you get your tumbrels you have to go through the lawyers. John Adams defended British soldiers accused of the Boston Massacre- and good for him.

  140. 140
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’m not sure the Constitution that these clowns think exist is the same one that you and I swore oaths to uphold and defend.

  141. 141
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: I don’t care what version they care about. I know the one I swore oaths to as an army officer and as a lawyer.

    I still point out again the John Adams example.

  142. 142
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I don’t disagree with you. And my “details” post was snark that you didn’t detect, which is my bad, not yours.

    However, we still have the problem of these guys inventing an interpretation of the Constitution out of thin air.

  143. 143
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: @Villago Delenda Est: Your blood-thirstiness will always exceed my views.

  144. 144
    gwangung says:

    @Adam L Silverman: All I’m getting out of it is that everyone involved has little idea on how Facebook and social media work, including the Bundy yahoos…

  145. 145
    Arclite says:

    If they had been black, they’d all have been shot dead. Of course, no black group would be crazy enough to hole up in the middle of nowhere in the winter.

    White privilege must be nice.

  146. 146
    Prescott Cactus says:

    @Arclite: If they had been black, they’d all have been shot dead.

    If our president wasn’t black these guys might all be dead. Randy Weaver, Waco. . . No body ever played the long game before. These clowns were going into town for cheetos and Fruit Loops, thinking everthing was fine and dandy.

    One died during the highway arrest and I give credit to those who showed restraint in the face of justifiable homicides. White privilege has allowed them to live and get lawyered up. Likely serious time in front of all of them, but agree, if the black panthers ever went on a camping trip like this they would be wearing pine jackets.

  147. 147
    Ruviana says:

    @opiejeanne: Yes! I think eventually it’ll be the norm. I can’t beat* it out of my students.


  148. 148
    Ryan says:

    Those appear to be real sheriff’s stars, and they have seven points. Donald’s only had 6!

  149. 149
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Felonius Monk: My daughter is being taught long division. It’s part of the Common Core standards, though I think they require it considerably later than I was taught it. In general there’s more emphasis on alternative approaches and techniques for mental math, and the standard pencil-and-paper algorithms get pushed slightly later in the sequence, but they do get in there.

    I’ve heard stories of districts in which long division was eliminated entirely, but I’ve become reflexively wary: there are a lot of bullshit political stories out there about how Common Core replaced our kids’ real math with crazy moon math nobody can understand.

  150. 150
    Steve in the ATL says:


    I hate to admitted it but jury nullification is a fairly popular concept amongst defense attorneys. (Me included).

    If the facts and the law are against you, you don’t have much else!

  151. 151
    nutella says:


    Ammon Bundy’s lawyer J. Morgan Philpot filed a motion on Tuesday that asked Brown to allow the brothers to dress in their traditional clothing, according to a prior story by the Oregonian. “These men are cowboys, and given that the jury will be assessing their authenticity and credibility, they should be able to present themselves to the jury in that manner,” he wrote.

    Well, that’s a lie. These men are NOT cowboys. They all were working at regular jobs before they ran off to play at Malheur. Ammon even had received a federal loan to help run his transport business.

  152. 152
    nutella says:


    They claimed to be ranchers looking out for the welfare of the locals, but only one was a rancher in any way and only one other was from Oregon. Buncha outside agitators pretending to care about the locals.

  153. 153
    Robert B. Winn says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: Well, it all goes back to slavery. People in the West did not consider themselves to be slaves because there was all of this unused land in the West that they could believe they had some sort of ownership stake in. That ended in the 1980’s with the Clinton administration when the lumber industry was shut down by federal courts declaring that all Forest Service land was the property of the Democratic Party, and that trees could only be used for forest fires to prove that there is global warming. At the same time, the Clinton administration moved against the cattle industry starting the sagebrush rebellion, the last vestiges of which you see in this trial.
    With regard to slavery, we can see the difference between American law and English law and the reason why the Democratic Party was successful in enforcing slavery in the United States for sixty years. James I of England appointed judges who were charged with the specific task of “striking down” acts of Parliament that King James did not like. This caused a civil war in England and was later stopped by William and Mary when they deposed James II. That enabled England to outlaw the slave trade in 1807 and abolish slavery in 1834 by acts of Parliament. By contrast, “striking down” of acts of Congress was instituted in the United States in 1803 in Marbury v. Madison, enabling the Democratic Party to enforce slavery in the United States for the next sixty years.
    To show how slavery is being enforced today in the United States, we look at Lincoln County, Montana, the county where I grew up. Back then it was a fairly prosperous place with one major industry, lumber. Lincoln County is about one and a half times the size of the state of Delaware and has about 19,000 people, the same population it had back in the 1950’s when I was in grade school. Almost all of the land in Lincoln County is Forest Service land. Today Lincoln County is the county in the entire United States with the highest percentage of people receiving social security benefits. There are no jobs there. Young people leave as soon as they have to look for work.
    So we look at current interpretation of what should happen in Lincoln County. Since almost all of the land there is Forest Service land, and the Democratic Party does not allow sale of trees for lumber, the people who have the most to say about what happens in Lincoln County are Democratic Party leaders. Those are people in cities who have no knowledge of trees or other natural resources in Lincoln County. Then comes the voice of the people who elect these party politicians, people in cities. The people who have no voice whatsoever about what happens in Lincoln County are the residents who live there, who are only there to serve political party purposes and occupy space for the purpose of taxation and population quotas.
    With regard to the trees, they will continue to build up debris until there is a dry summer, and a fire gets started, and then they will burn, proving to people in cities that there is global warming.
    One thing I notice about people in cities. They do not get as upset when federal land is used to grow marijuana as they do when it is used for tress that are cut into lumber or when cattle are being raised on government land.

  154. 154
    Rob in CT says:

    Now THAT’s some Authentic Frontier Gibberish.

  155. 155
    opiejeanne says:

    @Robert B. Winn: You are an idiot.
    History of the Refuge:
    Malheur National Wildlife Refuge was created on August 18, 1908 by a proclamation from President Roosevelt, under a law which allowed the president to declare game preserves on federal public land. The refuge began as a 81,786-acre (330.98 km2) parcel surrounding Malheur Lake, Harney Lake and Mud Lake, and was originally named the Malheur Lake Refuge.[7][12][15] In the years that followed, the refuge grew to its current size of 187,756 acres (759.82 km2) through federal purchases and acquisitions of surrounding lands. Of its current acreage, 43,665.57 acres (176.7083 km2) were acquired by purchase from various willing sellers; 5,070.39 acres (20.5191 km2) were acquired by condemnation; 64,713.54 acres (261.8864 km2) were acquired by purchase from a willing seller as part of the Blitzen Valley Project in 1935; 12,287.73 acres (49.7267 km2) were acquired in exchange for 11,442.76 acres (46.3072 km2) of refuge land; 240 acres (0.97 km2) were acquired by direct donation; and 73,222.07 acres (296.3192 km2) were already existing public domain land. The creation and expansion of this refuge involved litigation, of which two lawsuits ended in favorable Supreme Court decisions, that provide the legal foundation for its ownership and management by federal agencies.[15]

  156. 156
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Robert B. Winn: Christ, what an idiot. This in particular:

    One thing I notice about people in cities. They do not get as upset when federal land is used to grow marijuana as they do when it is used for tress that are cut into lumber or when cattle are being raised on government land.

    You don’t “notice” any such thing. Because it actually isn’t true. When you’re being menaced and shot at by people who are pillaging and polluting the national forests to grow weed, believe me, even “people in cities” think that’s a problem. There’s this little notion abroad that public land shouldn’t be hostage to private use.

    The only time I get upset about timber-cutting and cattle-grazing is when people act like those are the only things that should be happening on public land. Public land is multi-use. And being out here in the hinterlands, bud, and surrounded by federal and state public land, I can tell you that local folks have *plenty* of say about what happens on it. And they are noticing that one of the things happening on it is recreational use that brings tourists and tourist money to the region. Strangely, this ends up creating jobs – more jobs than ranching, mining and logging are bringing. Even our dumb-as-bricks Republican state and US representatives are waking up to that fact, not that that changes their rhetoric about the Ebil Federal Government.

  157. 157
    Canyon says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: Actually, that is not the case. The court has said they will not hear the issue of land ownership (other than for intent). Likewise adverse possession. The issue at trial is conspiracy, a charge a number of defendants have already pleaded guilty to and are awaiting sentencing.
    The Bundys, and particularly pro se defendant Ryan Bundy, Shawna cox and Ken Medenbach (both have hybrid counsel, part appointed counsel/part pro se) have tried multiple avenues of attack on these points along with jurisdictional arguments (the feds can’t hear the case), the judge took the wrong oath (a favorite of Medenbach) etc. Ryan Bundy has filed and continues to file SovCitizen type motions etc., many of them eyebrow raising and many of them far past the filing date.

  158. 158
    opiejeanne says:

    @Canyon: I think you missed what Frankensteinbeck wa getting at, that that is what the Bundy Bunch believe, not that’s what the trial is about. The judge has already made it clear that legal ownership of the land is not the subject of these trials.

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