Trump may be shifting towards building more of a "virtual wall" on the border, reports @halliejackson
— Ari Melber MSNBC (@AriMelber) August 29, 2016
Trump backers Giuliani, Perry, and Chris Collins all now using “technological,” “digital,” and “virtual” to describe the wall.
— Noah Rothman (@NoahCRothman) August 29, 2016
Greg Sargeant, in the Washington Post:
The Grand Trumpian Immigration Follies of 2016 are set to take another turn: Donald Trump has now announced that he will give a major speech (does any Trump speech fail to merit that label?) on the issue on Wednesday, in which he is expected to finally clarify his stance on mass deportations.
But it is more likely that instead of clarifying his stance on mass deportations, Trump will instead try to shift the subject away from them entirely. That’s because Trump’s big lie about mass deportations — i.e., that he would carry them out swiftly and humanely, thus Making America Great Again — is falling apart. And he’s now trying to replace that lie by foregrounding another lie.
Trump previewed his speech at a rally over the weekend…
“In recent days, the media, as it usually does, has missed the whole point on immigration. They have missed the whole point. All the media wants to talk about is the 11 million people — or more, or less, they have no idea what the number is because we have no control over our country; they have no idea what it is — that are here illegally.
“But my priority, and really, it’s for the well being of everybody, but in particular the 300 million Americans and more, and all of our Hispanic citizens, and all of our African American citizens, legal residents who want a secure border…”
… [L]et’s pause to marvel at the spectacle of Trump blaming the media for this focus on mass deportations. That promise has been key to Trump’s candidacy for over a year. As early as August of 2015 Trump was already saying on national television that all undocumented immigrants in this country “have to go.” … Now Trump insists that the aspect of his plan that really matters is his pledge to secure the border…
The real reason Trump is now shifting away from mass deportations is almost too obvious to restate: It is probably alienating the college educated whites and white women — swing constituencies — that he simply must improve among if he is to have a chance at winning… But in so doing, Trump is still preserving his underlying stance that all the 11 million generally remain targets for removal. He even told CNN that there’s a “very good chance” that all the rest would be deported later. This isn’t as crazy as vowing proactive, immediate mass deportations. But it still is not an actual solution…
It will, however, give the Media Village Idiots a(nother) chance to swoon over the new! improved! “reasonable” Donald Trump, which is the best Trump’s handlers probably hope for at this point. If only they can get all the Trumplodytes on the same page for just one lousy day…
Sr. Trump adv: Reports of "virtual wall" are false. Trump determined to build wall, adv says: "It will be an impenetrable physical barrier."
— Jim Acosta (@Acosta) August 29, 2016
JMG
Well, virtual and physical and KINDS of reality.
dmsilev
Perhaps a force-field of the sort the Empire built to protect the Death Star? Proof against Mexicans, but very vulnerable to Ewoks.
schrodinger's cat
There is no way to do what Trump wants without making America a police state.
schrodinger's cat
@dmsilev: He has to build a wall on the northern border, southern border, not issue any temporary visas.
hovercraft
I think there may be pigs flying outside. Nancy LaTourneau is astonoished.
lamh36
Soooo…how’s that outreach going?
@JesseFFerguson
New PPP poll released on @maddow right now —
TRUMP FAV/UNFAV with African American voters is:
Fav: 0%
UnFav: 97%
Undecided 3%
Hal
Christ on a cracker, Chris Hayes can’t debate Trump surrogates worth shit. How about just having Joy Reid on when you need to push back on bullshit? He had on AJ Delgado and basically agreed with her that Trump has been consistent in his immigration policy, at least what’s posted on his website. Fuck man.
Eric U.
I think you’ve identified the means and material of building Trump’s wall. It will be built of bullshit through bullshitting. And the 11 million will be virtually deported.
Ok, so is it literally or figuratively impenetrable? And if literally impenetrable, is it the kind of “literally” that means “figuratively”? Or is it virtually impenetrable?
OT, gave blood today. Really went well, thankfully their computers were down so I didn’t have to wait. They have guilted me into starting to give regularly again.
Major Major Major Major
What’s so bad about a secure border? I get that it’s not feasible and doesn’t comport with existing economic realities, but what’s actually wrong with a secured border?
hovercraft
@lamh36: According to Pastor Mark Burns, that’s just bullshit, we love Trump. And if we don’t we’ve been bamboozled.
Amir Khalid
@lamh36:
I’m beginning to suspect that African-American voters think Donald Trump might not be the most upstanding guy.
PPCLI
@lamh36: The “out reach” has never been about actually getting any African-American votes. It’s about white Republican voters, especially women, who find Trump’s racism too open and raw.
schrodinger's cat
@Major Major Major Major: What do you mean by a secured border? Do you want something like the Berlin Wall? Do you what only the southern border to be “secured”?
WaterGirl
I think we’re seeing the result of multiple advisors who are advising things that are in direct conflict with one another.
I guess that’s what happens when you have no principles, you don’t actually believe in anything, and aren’t troubled by moral or ethical issues. Couldn’t happen to a nicer person.
I don’t care f this is an instance of too many cooks spoil the pot, I think it’s awesome. Mr. Says What He Thinks is gonna piss off a whole lot of people now that even that has turned out to be false.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Armed, secured borders — because, realistically, you can’t have a “secured” border without it being armed to the teeth — is generally a bad signal about what’s going on inside the country that set up the border.
Ruviana
@lamh36: This is actually one of my favorite things–Trump has 0% support among African-American voters. How do you do that?
lamh36
So Lewandowski still on Trump payroll…SHOCKING
@maggieNYT
Lewandowski gets a secret service pin when he goes to Trump events, per @JTSantucci
Amir Khalid
@Major Major Major Major:
A secure border is always a good thing. An unrealistic approach to securing a border, not so much.
Gin & Tonic
Back at home after a long trip today, and over a week out of the US, during which I heard blessedly little about that clown. I hope we hear equally little about him after November 9.
p.a.
It’s widely known Messicans are allergic to tachyons. Tachyons and self-sealing stembolts: the future of Murkan security.
Frankensteinbeck
I don’t know how this will play. The only reason he won the primary and has any enthusiastic support is that he called Mexicans rapists and murderers. There have already been screams of outrage that he’s in favor of ‘amnesty.’ How will they take this waffling? It seems to me he’s likely to drive down turnout with every branch of the GOP, rather than reeling them all in.
@Major Major Major Major:
The answer to this question is that the question itself is irrelevant, much like the question of what’s so bad about preventing voter ID fraud. It’s a cover for bigotry, and their idea of how to secure it involves stuff like giving angry white guys with guns permission to shoot every dark skinned person they see.
amk
@Major Major Major Major: In what way, is your life insecure now?
lamh36
@PPCLI: And I have yet to see that it has helped him that regard either…of course it could be the “Lying to pollster” phenomenon???
Major Major Major Major
@schrodinger’s cat: a border people only cross when they’re allowed to.
@Mnemosyne: so it just looks bad? I’m really not seeing a policy problem.
If we had a county where people could only enter when they’re allowed to, would there be a problem?
dmsilev
@Ruviana:
You do that by being Donald Trump.
philadelphialawyer
@Major Major Major Major: Besides being unfeasible and economically impossible? It would be an environmental disaster, for one thing. For another, it doesn’t really make sense, because we have a trade deal with Mexico. What’s the point of a “secure border” if there are a thousand gates in the wall to let the tens of millions of trucks and cars through? And most undocumented immigrants actually enter the country legally anyway. They overstay their visas, so the “secure border” won’t stop them. Then too, what does a “secure border” mean? A wall? Well, walls can be tunneled under, and flown over, and avoided altogether by landing on the coast. In fact, that’s how drugs are smuggled into the country now. That and in those trucks and cars. Trucks and cars that actually pass through the existing gates in the existing fences.
IF we had some sort of trade and tourism embargo with Mexico….and IF we didn’t let anyone into the country at our airports and through our border with Canada and by boat and so on….and IF we could solve all of the environmental problems… and IF we could make a wish and tap our heels three times so that someone else would actually pay for it, well then, OK, yeah then there might be a case for a “secure border.”
Steeplejack (tablet)
@Major Major Major Major:
What is your definition of a secure border? Serious question.
WaterGirl
@Major Major Major Major: Think about technology. You can try to do all the right things, but nothing is totally secure. Not your phone, not the network.
I don’t think anyone argues that a secure border would be a good thing, but it’s just not possible for it to be truly secure. That’s my two cents, anyway.
hovercraft
@Major Major Major Major:
Nothing wrong with a secure border, but why just the Southern one? Most people in the country ‘illegally’ are here because they’ve overstayed their visas. The number of Canadians who are here ‘illegally’ are very high, but since it is easier for them to ‘blend in’ they are not a focus of the nativists, but are they a problem? Not to pick on you, but the secure the border fetishists focus only on the border and policies that will keep brown people out. Focus on the entire issue and remedies, and I’ll take them seriously.
Ruviana
@dmsilev: He needs to extend that strategy to other groups!
Anoniminous
The Infortainment companies need a HORSE! RACE! so there will be a HORSE! RACE!
Gin & Tonic
@Major Major Major Major: How do you “secure” 7,500 miles of what is mostly unpopulated wilderness?
Jeffro
@hovercraft: I agree…I’m starting to see just a few cases of where even journalists get that this is not a case of two bad choices. Yes, I know. But progress is progress.
Should we tell them that it was Balloon Juice that first noted how the choices facing our modern American electorate, practically speaking, were like choosing between Italian or tire rims and anthrax for dinner?
Anoniminous
@schrodinger’s cat:
Well. Yeah. That is Teh Point.
Major Major Major Major
@hovercraft: I know. I’m trying to talk about non-racist benefits. And I meant all “borders”, over-stayers etc. @WaterGirl: so, no triage? We do have a lot of people here who aren’t allowed to be.
schrodinger's cat
@Major Major Major Major: Do you think you can jaywalk across the border? Its that easy?
I have never been to Mexico but even crossing the border to go to Canada is not easy, you have to go through two sets of security Canadian and US. You can’t just waltz into Canada or from Canada to the US.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
An armed, secure border requires you to kill the people who are trying to cross it. Are you comfortable with the US having a policy of shooting men, women, and children dead in the name of a secure border?
Jeffro
@philadelphialawyer:
Yes but please don’t waste any time trying to convince folks here or otherwise…the Trumpian Wall was always an absurd proposition on its face.
Jeffro
@WaterGirl:
To “hire the best people”, you have to have a half a brain…at least enough to know who the “best people” are. Trump’s like W, in that he would hire “heckuva-job Brownie” (Michael Brown) not just to head FEMA but dozens of Brownies all across the government. To say nothing of the sheer grifters that would be brought on board.
Mnemosyne
@schrodinger’s cat:
Also, this. I have a feeling that Major^4 hasn’t been to either Tijuana or Vancouver lately and doesn’t understand what a border crossing looks like.
(Also, OT, but I emailed you my WP info.)
Suzanne
@Major Major Major Major: There’s nothing wrong with it in and of itself, but it’s a stupid way to spend limited resources. I think we should make legal immigration as easy as possible, and people that come here illegally are by and large overstaying their visas, not border-hopping. The fact that we only seem to get upset when brown people immigrate is also a sign.
I, like most white people in this country, am a Western Euro-mutt (though I also have some Italian and Irish in addition to the Anglo-Saxon-Franco-Dutch). Some of my ancestors came over in the 1600s to Virginia. Others came much more recently through Ellis Island. It is absolutely beyond hypocritical for me to benefit from the fact that my ancestors immigrated here in search of better lives for themselves and their decendants and then deny the same thing to others seeking the same thing.
debbie
@Mnemosyne:
Don’t leave out the part where 11,000,000 are deported. One of my brothers is all in for Trump, and if he vacillates on the deportations, he’ll be really ticked.
Keith P.
$5 says part of his virtual wall is letting the Minutemen have free reign.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: if there is a good enough reason to kill somebody then there’s a good enough reason to kill somebody. But no, that’s not a good reason.
@schrodinger’s cat: you can if you climb the mountains. You have to really want it. Customs makes me take off my sunglasses.
I’m not really trying to talk about implementation. I guess it just feels to me that the default policy if you’re against a wall (I am) is that you’re pro illegal immigration (I’m not). Maybe that’s just out here.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: I was in both in 2015. Don’t be an ass.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Major Major Major Major:
The southern border is more “secure” than it has been in decades. Trouble is, objective numbers of agents, budget authority, miles of fence, numbers of cameras and sensors, numbers of people caught close to the border, all of that doesn’t help combat the meme that “the border isn’t secure”. If one bad guy makes it across, then “the border isn’t secure”, to hear the fraidy-cats talk.
It’s not a genuine policy disagreement, it’s a trumped-up (heh) boogie-man.
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
amk
meg whitman is campaigning for hillz. wolfowitz, the war criminal, sez he is voting for her. any one watching charlie pierce and his ball yet?
Major Major Major Major
@Suzanne: thank you. I’m glad I’m not the only person who feels exactly that way.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Gin & Tonic:
You have drone sharks with frickin’ laser beams!
philadelphialawyer
@Major Major Major Major: The best way to combat illegal immigration would be to enforce documentation requirements on employers. If folks can’t work here as undocumented immigrants, then they won’t come here as undocumented immigrants to work. Which means that most of them wouldn’t come here at all.
To the extent that undocumented immigrants are really such a big problem in the first place….
inventor
@Major Major Major Major: Given that the vast majority of immigration happens through airports, and therefore “with permission”, and the fact that the U.S. has had no net immigration for most of a decade, what makes you think the borders are insufficiently “secure”?
hovercraft
@Major Major Major Major:
The other thing to bear in mind is that no free country has secure borders, only a repressive regime has sufficient control to the flow, and even then it’s not fool proof. China has a problem with North Koreans, and is building a wall, I guess we’ll see if this one works better than the last one, they also have a problem with visa overstayers and are offering cash rewards to people who turn them in. South Africa has a problem with illegal migrants, basically I could go on, but every country has this problem to one degree or another. Even isolated nations like Australia have the issue, unless a country shuts down it’s airports, there is no way to stop it. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try, but if my choice is to starve or be murdered raped in my country of origin, I will escape or die trying.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
There are plenty of good reasons to be against a wall, like it being completely ridiculous and impractical. People who say We should build a wall! have no clue what it would actually take to build that wall, not to mention how many Border Patrol guards would need to be hired to staff it. Think how long it takes to drive from Los Angeles to San Francisco in good traffic. Now imagine the 5 Freeway is a wall. Now quadruple the length, at least (math majors, little help?)
If you’re talking to people from your part of California, they want to build a solid, armed wall with guards from SF to Lake Tahoe, and then multiply by about 20.
It’s a stupid slogan that sounds good to stupid people. Period.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major:
We’d be stuck on the inside with Trump.
dmsilev
If you want to ‘secure the border’, which I will interpret to mean that only residents or people with valid visas are here, there’s a straightforward way to do it. Attack the demand. Go after employers that hire undocumented workeres. And by go after, I mean start with crippling fines and escalate to throwing executives in jail.
And no, this will never happen.
Baud
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: This.
Suzanne
@Major Major Major Major: I think we make legal immigration far too difficult and expensive. I am not pro-breaking the law, but it’s an inevitability when we put so many hurdles in their way. And since I think America should be about open doors insofar as is possible, I am in no way supportive of prosecution or deportation except for violent criminals.
Mike in NC
Drumpf is a great example of the old saying “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit”.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
“Just build a wall!” is not a rational border control strategy. Don’t be an idiot.
amk
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Yup, it’s pure fear mongering of ‘other’.
Major Major Major Major
To be clear, a wall is stupid and we need to do e-verify plus a guest worker program yesterday, along with all of the other stuff that basically was in the senate bill. It was adequate. But out here if I say anything vaguely positive about, say, deporting felons, people look at me like I have two heads and they’re both Hitler’s. Thank you for the sanity check.
? Martin
@Major Major Major Major: Nothing, but for one, it’s already acceptably secure, and for two an Imaginot Line wouldn’t make it more secure. The 9/11 bombers didn’t wade across the Rio Grande, they flew into JFK. And if they were determined to cross by land, they’d come across the Canadian border.
Broadly speaking, Americans need to learn the meaning of opportunity costs. The billions spent on a wall would certainly be better used in almost any other way.
Prescott Cactus
The northern border with Canada will be constructed last. West to East. Great Canadian beer and back bacon sandwiches should and will be allowed unimpeded entry into the US.
Poutine likely will be the cause of the “Great Battle with Canada”. Light brown gravy and an occasional cheese curd melted in Freedum fries will be the tilting point.
As it should be.
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne: Yep and people still managed to escape from East Berlin.
Suzanne
@Prescott Cactus: Have you ever had Greek fries? OHMIGOD DA BEST.
Gin & Tonic
@Prescott Cactus:
Assumes facts not in evidence.
MJS
@Major Major Major Major: How about mandatory life sentences for any business owner who hires an undocumented immigrant? Would seem to be as practical as a “secure border” and would have the added benefit of increasing wages as the labor market tightened.
Baud
@? Martin:
Heh.
Major Major Major Major
@Suzanne: I also agree with this! Yay.
I’m gonna go stare at a wall for an hour, peace out!
Suzanne
@Prescott Cactus: Besides, the War of Really Far Northern Aggression will start when we invade while they are all mourning the death of Gord. We’re going to invade and then say they attacked us.
I’m really sad about Gord.
Adam L Silverman
@schrodinger’s cat: And what about all that coast line?
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
You may need to avoid immigration discussions until after Trump is safely defeated. He’s thrown them into such a bizarre and fact-free place that a rational discourse is not going to be possible ATM.
ETA: I mean discussions IRL, not here. And SF is always going to be on the lookout for wrongthink.
Miss Bianca
@schrodinger’s cat: you used to be able to, tho’. I remember back in 1984 when I was hitchhiking back down from Alaska with a guy I met up there on a commercial fishing boat. We were short of a ride really close to the Washington border. As I recall, we actually *walked* across the border – deserted except for us, and one guy in a little guard house. If we’d really been trying, we probably could have avoided him altogether. Of course, that was back in the day when you didn’t need a passport to enter or exit the country. Good times!
Fuck Bin Laden for that, on top of everything else. I hate the notion of secured borders. I like the notion of human freedom to move and migrate.
sigaba
@dmsilev: “Perhaps a force-field of the sort the Empire built to protect the Death Star?”
General Mireau has seen more heavily fortified positions. Defintitely pregnable.
Prescott Cactus
@Suzanne: No, but will investigate. Had a version of poutine with a “white lobster sauce” Will surrender for lobster poutine.
@Gin & Tonic: Clarification: Stronger Canadian beer.
sigaba
@Miss Bianca: Those are borders between White People, silly. Those borders aren’t real borders.
In Tuchman’s Zimmerman Telegram there’s this whole section about how Arizona and Texas pols were demanding the feds fortify the border because, shit you not, the Japanese were allegedly sighted training units in Mexico. Creepy twits along the southern border have been inventing every kind of boogieman threatening from South for centuries.
Gvg
People often come here to escape really bad situations. We shouldn’t be so hard to legally get into. More legal immigration would slow down illegal smuggling. For several decades it seems to me the immigration service has been handicapped by deliberate underfunding and complex laws. Their computers are slow and there are too few of them. My ancestors immigrated.
Also I am not a coward. Ever since some of Chiney’s comments I have realized the tough guys are cowards. More and more obvious.
philadelphialawyer
@Miss Bianca: Back in the Nineties I crossed into Canada and back with nothing but an ATM card! The RC Mountie looked at my card, made sit in the little house for a couple of minutes while he checked something on the computer, and then said to have a good time in Canada! Coming back, the US Customs guy (or whatever he was) just wanted to know if we had bought any cigarettes in Canada. I told him I had half a pack left, and he seemed to think that was good enough. Didn’t even ask to see my ATM card!
MJS
Trump at 0 percent with African-Americans. So basically “The Bell Curve” got it exactly backwards.
JR in WV
@schrodinger’s cat:
Feature~!!!! Not Bug! This is what they want, and undocumented immigrants are merely an excuse for their ICE police state, which will always want to see YOUR papers, and not mine! ‘Cause I’m Amurican, and you all ain’t~!!!!
In case it weren’t obvious:: /end snark!!
Mary G
@dmsilev: This. I live a couple of hours north of Tijuana. My mom was the food service director for the local school district and her central kitchen was in the “industrial” area. Every so often people would erupt from the businesses on either side and hop the fence to hide in the ditch because la migra was coming. They kept a watch out. It was easy because there was only one road in.
The immigration guys were total assholes and were stonewalled by even the reddest Republicans and biggest racists, who hated what they called wetbacks, but Jorge, Carlos, etc. that worked for them were different.
It would cost a fortune to pay the going rate for millions of jobs and no one who’s paying the salaries wants that. The Republicans talk about e-Verify, but they never make it mandatory.
Prescott Cactus
@Suzanne: We struggle together. I tried desperately to catch the CBC show from Kingston. Have been catching a video of “Ahead by a Century” at least daily from one source or another. 1999 Woodstock & show at Kingston are fav’s.
“No dress rehearsal, this is our life”. Resonates on so many levels. Mortality makes that a deafening statement.
Keith P.
I see this headline on Politico ‘Perry Joins DWTS’, and my first thought is ‘Katy Perry…wait, why would Politico cover that?” Then my mind starts to run political Perry’s through it. No way it’s Rick Perry. Sure enough, it is.
schrodinger's cat
@Miss Bianca: I have crossed a border like that in the 90s pre 9/11 in Maine. The border crossing was a sleepy outpost with one person at the Canadian side of the border. This was late in the evening in December.
Emma
According to NOAA, the US has 95,471 miles of shoreline. Even with all the coastal buildup, there’s got to be plenty of places where you can take a small boat crammed with bodies. Add to that all the over-stayers and people who pay off guards and you’ve spent billions on the stupidest security system on Earth.
craigie
Waiting for Trump to declare that he is bigger than Jesus, so that we can get this election over with already.
schrodinger's cat
@Adam L Silverman: Naval blockade? You are the military strategist, you tell me.
Mnemosyne
@Keith P.:
Isn’t that pretty much an admission that his political career is completely dead?
amk
@Keith P.: next up, rude rudy.
schrodinger's cat
@? Martin: One of the 9/11 guys came via the Canadian border IIRC.
SiubhanDuinne
@? Martin:
Nice!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Keith P.: Perry (and Tom Delay) on the dancing show… Willard Romney doing that charity boxing match…. Bob Dole doing that creepy Pepsi commercial, ogling Britney Spears…. I can’t decide which is weirder, in part because none of these decisions can be completely explained by money, which would at least make sense.
and as I type, maybe Perry is the least odd of all of those
? Martin
@schrodinger’s cat: Well, since the US-Mexico border is only 2,000 miles long, the 5,500 mile long border with Canada (once you’re in Alaska, you’re in the US and able to travel freely) should be no problem to secure.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Keith P.:
Maybe they should rename the show to “Who’s That Person Dancing Poorly?”
JR in WV
@Major Major Major Major:
It’s pretty secure now. If you’ve never been there, if it isn’t blasted hot desert with no water and many cactii, no path but rocks and gullies, there’s a metal wall, and guys on ATV where possible, and guys on horseback where ATVs can’t go, all heavily armed.
People die every day, if they do manage to cross the border, which used to be like crossing from Illinois to Indiana to Ohio. It isn’t like that any more.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: Was this rhetorical? I’m willing to take this seriously.
There’s nothing wrong with securing entry and exit into the US, but there are a number of different complications and concerns that have to be kept in mind when considering policy and strategy. The first, quite simply, is the human geography of the issue. This was what my post about the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo last week was about. When the border was moved south and west by that border the pattern of settlement was not disrupted. As a result, for the first hundred years or so after the border was shifted people just came and went. Beginning in the 1940s a variety of different approaches began to be tried, but the confounding reality across every effort has always been that pattern of settlement. The southern border is simply a line on the map that is, at times, nothing more than a nuisance to the demographic population living on either side of it. And it ignores the other historic reality of this pattern of settlement: that there has always been a migratory and temporary component to it from south to north and back again. These dynamics, both those drivers from Mexico and those drivers from the US, are multifaceted and will be difficult to untangle and resolve. And it doesn’t even get into the reality of migration from farther south than Mexico, which is often driven by the need to flee from conflict zones and failing areas within fragile and/or tyrannical states.
And this brings us to the second issue: why just the southern border? The border with Canada is far, far longer. So why all the constant fear from the south? This, I think, is a tell. And the tell is that this is about American ethnonational chauvinism against Latinos and Hispanics because even when they’re white, they’re not quite white, not really white. Canadians, however, are by and large considered to be of Anglo and or Francophone descent, so they’re white and we can trust them to respect the borders and police their side accordingly. Apparently we just can’t trust those Mexicans though…
And how, exactly, are you going to secure the thousands of miles of coastlines up and down the Atlantic and Pacific, as well as the Gulf of Mexico. This is in addition to the tremendous expense of physically securing the northern and southern borders. Physical security is cost prohibitive, though I suppose it would have a Keynesian multiplier effect on the economy. Technological security brings with it it’s own concerns in regard to civil liberties as it will, undoubtedly, wind up surveilling American citizens and legal resident aliens because the technology doesn’t care who it surveils, its just there to surveil.
Now we can get to some other issues. Unauthorized entry into the US is a misdemeanor. It has no specified criminal punishment or penalty, just relocation out of the US – presumably back to place of origin. This does come with a penalty – the requirement to wait for ten years before attempting to legally return. Overstaying a visa – usually a tourist or student visa – is not a crime at all. So if the issue is to get really serious about securing who enters, where they enter, and how and for long they’re allowed to enter, we have to get the law changed. Similarly, there is going to be an expectation, and already is among some, that we’re going to remove those that enter or try to enter without authorization or overstay their authorized entry periods. Currently Congress appropriates enough money to deport about 450,000 people a year. So to do this Congress would have to increase their appropriation and funding for ICE and Border Patrol by a significant amount.
Your assignment is to develop a policy, rooted in the reality of the problem set delineated above. You will need to develop a minimum of three potential policies – one of which may be maintain the status quo. You must conduct a feasible, acceptable, suitable (FAS) analysis for each option and present only one as the preferred recommended policy option. Do not exceed three pages in the formal policy analysis, FAS test, and proposal. You may include up to a ten page annex that includes supporting and/or supplementary analysis and information.
Prescott Cactus
@JR in WV: Local scuttlebutt has it that folks don’t often go it alone. They work with smugglers or agents, who generally demand extra payment upon arrival with the threat of handing them over to Immigration if they can’t come up with extra $$$.
Terrible situation.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
Here in CA, we’ve had several very prominent cases of workers from Thailand or other places in Asia being brought over to basically be slave labor — they get here and their passports are taken from them so they can’t get away from their “employers.” It’s usually garment workers, but it can be domestic help (maids, nannies, etc) as well.
Prescott Cactus
@Adam L Silverman:
Single or double space? Also need due date. . .
Truegster
He should have played the con to the end – lost with “i was going to build the wall”. To me, the fact that he’s attempting to pivot means that he really is trying to win instead of throw it. His political instincts are absolutely terrible, lol.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: We’ve got your back if you want to push for deporting Silicon Valley libertarian dude bros!
catclub
@dmsilev:
All those texans who have a yard man and a nanny. Arrest them!
Adam L Silverman
@schrodinger’s cat: I was just asking for a friend…
OT – do you still need that recipe? If so, please email me and I’ll dig it out for you.
Omnes Omnibus
@? Martin:
Well played and stolen.
Steve in the ATL
Dear former step-sister who now lives off the grid in rural Vermont:
I see that you finally gave up your Bernie dream and are now volunteering for Jill Stein for President. Kindly fuck off.
Warmest regards,
S.
Ruckus
@schrodinger’s cat:
You used to be able to go to Mexico or Canada without a passport. Your DL was enough. I used to have a customer in Mexico and I have been there a number of times. Going into Mexico you didn’t even have to stop. Coming back I’d just ride my motorcycle to the head of the line and be motioned across. The last time I went to Canada I didn’t take my passport, 2003, and Canadian Customs told me I needed one but go on anyway. Now? You have to have one to travel anywhere now because if for no other reason you need it to get back in the country. The war on terror. Which of course is for terrorizing a countries own citizens to keep them in line. Or something like that.
Mnemosyne
@catclub:
I live in Southern California, as does dmsilev. I’m fine with making “regular” people who hire illegal nannies and gardeners spend at least one night in jail, and more if they don’t knock it off. If you’re too cheap to pay $10.50 an hour to have your house cleaned or your kids looked after, you’re an asshole anyway.
(Updated with the 2017 CA minimum wage rate.)
burnspbesq
Sometime in the next few days, we’ll hear that Trump’s new adviser on immigration policy is Rodrigo Duterte.
“No license, no limit.”
JR in WV
@Miss Bianca:
Yes, this! Freedom of movement. After we got back from our (1 and only so far) trip to Europe to tour the caves with ancient paintings, I realized that I was very hazy about which things we saw were in France and which were in Spain.
Because in 2013 there were no border posts with customs agents and gendarmes. There were plenty of cops in Madrid Airport, which was so huge and empty I’m thinking it is really intended to be an Air Force base, really. But not so many at Charles de Gaulle airport near Paris.
I have worked out which places we visited were in Spain, and when (about) we crossed into the French Pyrenees mountains from the Spanish Pyrenees. It was about like traveling from Ohio into Indiana. Less a deal than from WV into Kentucky, there’s a river there.
There are little towns between Spain and France that spread across the border, which in places seems to run along a ridge top, but in other places seems to run across the fields.
Used to be like that between Arizona and Sonora, Mexico. One day we were visiting my cousin, and she gave us a tub of moisturizer, said don’t let your skin dry out (here in the high desert!). We both slathered up, and then I saw the price tag on the 8 oz tub… 43.89 it said. But that was in pesos, so it really cost about $3.00 US. She used to go shopping across the border, because it was cheaper, and easy. Now it isn’t.
She used to be able to get dental work done that she could afford. Now she can’t.
Steve in the ATL
@Suzanne: Greek fries in the Latin Quarter in Paris, France are the best
Ruckus
@Baud:
Stuck with Trump.
Best answer so far.
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: Which fraternity?
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: out here it’s the Bernie or bust types pushing for no deportations ever.
? Martin
@Mnemosyne: What if you hire illegals and pay prevailing wages? Hell, even my kids earned $10/hr doing household chores – raised to $12 and now $15. I’ve never paid a day laborer less than what I vote to support – and I’ve never asked if they were here legally or not.
amk
@Ruckus: More enemies within than without.
JR in WV
@Mnemosyne:
I would pay $10/hour if I could find someone I could trust to do it and not take stuff. But I can’t …
Ruckus
@dmsilev:
Actually that was part of Raygun’s immigration policy. As an employer I had to check papers and fill out paperwork for every new hire. A small problem was that there were forgers for all of the required papers and I was and am not a forgery expert. I have/had an uncle who was but he lived hours away. The program was unworkable on it’s face and on every other part of it. The only way would be for a massive bureaucracy to issue a national ID card and a way to check each one when you applied for a job. And I’m sure you’ve heard the squealing about a national ID card and understand who does the most squealing.
? Martin
@Major Major Major Major: I think that’s a particular breed there. Even the most liberal voices toward immigration that I’ve witnessed elsewhere are in favor of deportation if a crime is committed. And that’s a view commonly shared by undocumented people – they don’t want any jackasses fucking things up for the people trying to become citizens.
Major Major Major Major
@Ruckus: E-verify works fine and seems to be acceptable to republicans.
Davebo
@Mnemosyne:
Honestly, I live in illegal alien central and I may have missed the boat but I’ve been paying closer to $20.00 per hour once a week to have someone come clean up my messes. Money well spent as she’s incredible but still….
JR in WV
Interesting discussion. I gotta try to go to bed, tho.
night, all… wish me sleep.
Punchy
@Gin & Tonic: white picket fence. They want to live in the 1950s again, let’s secure the border with an ersatz structure synonomous with the fiddies.
Davebo
@Adam L Silverman:
That should be a front page post Adam. Internet commenters all over the world now feel inadequate beyond words!
Adam L Silverman
@Davebo: Thanks.
Prescott Cactus
@JR in WV: Sleep brother !
Peale
@Major Major Major Major: it isn’t so much the wall, it’s that the wall is to be huge and impregnable. No mere fence with razor wire. It is also going to be paid for by Mexico. It is the latter that should be as concerning. Trump will basically be putting Mexico in the rogue state category. His options are to throw out nafta and charge tariffs on goods, confiscate assets, heavily tax remittances, etc. I think we really need to stop laughing so much at the wall and go after the latter part as well. For it seems like the promise of a free wall is going to lead to problems when Mexico refuses to pay for it.
Adam L Silverman
Overnight open thread, with music, is up!
patroclus
Well, I’ve been to the Big Bend National Park a few times – part of it is up in the Chisos Mountains and part of it is along the Rio Grande “river” which is more like a barely running stream and “crossing” the border with Mexico is very easy because you just wade across or jump on the rocks in order to stay dry. The canyons are gorgeous! Putting a wall there would be a joke – it would take billions to move all the equipment and material all the way up the Chisos, hundreds of miles from any civilization and then a few more billions to transport it all down to the canyons and hundreds of billions to maintain it (presumably) forever. And for what? Throughout history, there has been no “secure” border there and the idea that there should be seems fairly ridiculous. The Mexican side is mountainous and desert too. If anyone ever goes there, they would know immediately that the idea is stupid and resources should be expended on real problems. At border crossing points (Nuevo Laredo; Del Rio; Juarez etc…), it’s a different issue and fences and walls make more sense. But not at the hundreds and hundreds of miles of the Big Bend. Nope. Not there. I’m never going to be convinced of that unless the entire situation changes drastically. Trump’s never been there and it shows.
different-church-lady
Northern border, schmorden border! What about the Eastern border?
Ruckus
@Major Major Major Major:
Now make it mandatory for all employers including household workers. See if it holds up. Or if it takes weeks to get an answer. The site says it takes seconds with 600,000 companies using it. What do you do if it makes a mistake? Are you still responsible? What if it rejects a citizen? Can you get sued? I understand the issues but I still don’t think it’s workable across the board. What information do they have on you? How do they know someone my age is a citizen? What about people without a birth certificate? Me they might know, I’ve held a passport, I have/had an FBI file although that’s probably in a file cabinet rather than a computer. But I know people who most likely don’t have those.
Prescott Cactus
@Peale: Much of the wall would need to be built on US citizens land. Eminent domain issues. Over streams and waterways that would need EPA and other environmental approval. If Herr Drumph got in, those agencies may not exist anymore, but from a practical standpoint it is really not even possible if reasonable costs are assumed.
Mary G
New poll for CA 49:
Darrell Issa 45%
Doug Applegate; 42%
Within the margin of error and halfway made up the 6% gap from the jungle primary. This could really happen.
This week, both the Wapo and NYT mentioned a possible upset, if unlikely.
Sarah, Proud and Tall
@? Martin:
Wins.
Cowgirl in the Sandi
@Mary G:
Oh boy! Several years ago my husband and I retired and bought an Airstream trailer and traveled around the US. We used a mail service based in Encinitas CA to get our mail. Guess who was our rep?? Yep – Darrell Issa. What a jerk. I used to send him email to tell him what I thought he should be doing/supporting. Needless to say, he never listened to me.
Le sigh – now we live in Northern CA and I often wish I hadn’t changed my voter registration so i could vote against that asshole – especially now!!
JosieJ (not Josie)
@Mnemosyne:
The bigger problem isn’t some schmoe who hires an illegal nanny, yard guy or maid. The bigger problem is the giant corporations who hire illegals to pick produce or slash sugar cane all day in the hot sun, or slaughter chickens in filthy, dangerous factories, all for pennies on the dollar. They have no consequences because they bribe lawmakers to make sure they don’t–and because we as consumers would throw an almighty conniption if we had to pay more for our food. And the first to whine would be those whose voices are calling for all 11 million illegals who are already here to be booted out.
Omnes Omnibus
@JosieJ (not Josie): I say prosecute each employer. If everyone who takes advantage of the rules gets dinged, the rules will change.
danielx
@schrodinger’s cat:
And his base have no problem with that, provided they’re the police.
JosieJ (not Josie)
Omnes, I agree that it should, but it’ll never happen while the Chamber of Commerce lobbyists prevent current laws from being enforced (or even adequately funded) and stronger laws from being passed.
Omnes Omnibus
@JosieJ (not Josie): Of course. We can’t win on this right now. Lot’s of Dem’s have legit anti-im arguments. I may not agree with them but it does not mean they are illegitimate.
Bupalos
@schrodinger’s cat:
You can definitely waltz across the Canadian border. 99% of it is totally unguarded. I’ve been across dozens of times in a 14 foot boat and a couple of times on foot.
M. Bouffant
@Adam L Silverman: Mines & coastal artillery, of course.
Kay
The GOP are backing off the wall because when Trump loses their base will now demand a wall and anything less than a wall will be seen as a capitulation.
Trump moved the base far Right in immigration. They now have to remove 11 million people and build a wall to get the business-friendly immigration policy the donor part of their base want. Since Democrats will never agree to a wall and removing 11 million people (because it’s impossible and insane) the GOP will never satisfy their donors OR their base on immigration, leaving everyone on that side unhappy, forever.
Kay
@Major Major Major Major:
IMO, liberals ignore that a lot of pro-immigration policy is driven by business interests. It’s just a fact. That doesn’t mean it can’t also be driven by other people who have humanitarian or diversity goals or interests but ignoring the business side of this is just not reality.
If you look at the Bush immigration reform effort it was a compromise between people who are pro-immigration because of humanitarian interests and big corporate actors who want a looser labor market. That’s what happened. That’s who made the deal. Refusing to admit this or not being aware of it discredits the liberal argument, IMO.
To me it’s a lot like trade policy. Some liberals are uncomfortable aligning with business interests on trade, so they simply ignore that they often ARE aligned with business interests on trade. It’s complicated. The alliances don’t always fall on L/R lines.
bemused
@schrodinger’s cat:
Ha. I live about 70 miles south of Minnesota/Canadian border which has several checkpoints. You rarely hear of anyone getting in or out of Canada via the checkpoints or trying to hoof it through the vast wilderness on both sides of the border. Even someone extremely experienced in trekking the northern forests and swamps would have to have a lot of gear, food and stamina to succeed even in the few months without below freezing temps.
Less than a year ago there was a Canadian felon, drugs and sex offense, who swam back and forth across the water at Grand Portage, far northeast tip of MN a few times before being caught. He had two accomplices. Quite unusual though.
Uncle Cosmo
@amk: Ghouliani? Demonstrating the Mortadella, one hopes. (Just like the Tarantella except you drop dead at the end.) Couldn’t happen to a more deserving goombah.
artem1s
A few days ago the DOJ announced the federal government would be shutting down the private prison system. Now the Obama administration is shutting down the use of private contractors for the immigration camps. am I crazy or is all of this immigration crap suddenly starting to sound like the private contractors were backing anyone they thought they could grift more money out of? is this another Halliburton type scam? drum up fear and then underpants gnome the hell out of the endless stream of government contracts to conduct the ‘war on the borders’? shorter questions, who is going to benefit from Trump’s ‘policy’? cause no one thinks its actually about immigration or border security, do they?
Glennis
@Major Major Major Major:
That’s pretty much what we have.
Hob
@Major Major Major Major: I mean this in a friendly way, but… while extreme opinions against any kind of immigration enforcement do exist, it could also be that people are giving you funny looks because they can’t tell what you’re talking about. I mean, if what you were really suggesting was that the government be more successful at catching people who have overstayed a visa, then “What’s wrong with secure borders?” is not an easily comprehensible way of suggesting that, especially when you bring it up within a conversation about Trump’s Wall. Virtually no one here got your intended meaning and virtually everyone thought you were saying something about physical barriers, and I don’t think that’s because everyone here is dense.
Hob
@Major Major Major Major: Actually, I’m even more confused now the more I look at your follow-up comments. It makes no sense to say “I meant all ‘borders’, over-stayers etc.” when you’re also saying “people could only enter when they’re allowed to”. People can only overstay their visas if they had visas, i.e. they entered when they were allowed to.