Open Thread: Dodged A Bullet

NBC sourced their story from the Center for Public Integrity’s “How Bernie Sanders beat the clock — and avoided disclosure”:

… [W]hen federal law required Sanders to reveal, by mid-May, current details of his personal finances, his campaign lawyer asked the Federal Election Commission for a 45-day extension.

Request granted.

On June 30, Sanders’ campaign requested a second 45-day extension, saying the senator had “good cause” to delay because of his “current campaign schedule and officeholder duties.”…

Now that Sanders’ second extension has expired, spokesman Michael Briggs confirmed to the Center for Public Integrity that the senator won’t file a presidential campaign personal financial disclosure after all.

“We were told that since the senator no longer is a candidate there was no requirement to file,” Briggs said.

FEC spokesman Christian Hilland verified that Sanders has not filed a personal financial disclosure. He likewise confirmed that Sanders, who technically ceased to be a presidential candidate when Hillary Clinton secured the Democratic nomination on July 26, is no longer required to file one…

Me, I’ve been saying all along that I seriously doubt there’s anything revelatory in the Sanders campaign finances beyond their embarrassing amateurism.” And now that he’s returned to his Green Mountain home(s), the only people with a real stake in the issue of Sanders’ finances are the voters of Vermont and the media in that unwealthy underpopulated state…

VTDigger, “Special report: Sanders campaign millions go to mystery firm“:

Nestled near the end of a suburban cul-de-sac in Alexandria, Virginia, is one of the most profitable media buying agencies in the 2016 primary race for the White House.

The unassuming two-story, single family home at 4507 Penwood Drive, is the registered address for Old Towne Media LLC — the media buying company that purchased more than $82 million in TV ad time for Bernie Sanders’ Democratic presidential campaign, Federal Election Commission reports through May show.

Old Towne’s income from the Sanders campaign has not been disclosed, but the industry standard for ad buy commissions is 15 percent. Based on that formula, the firm could have made $12 million.

The ad agency, established in 2014, has almost exclusively served the Sanders campaign, and the company keeps a low profile. It has no website and no listed phone number. A full list of principals isn’t publicly available.

Old Towne Media has another connection to Sanders: The two principal buyers for the company worked in the past with his wife, Jane. Jane Sanders, Shelli Hutton-Hartig and Barbara Abar Bougie were media buyers during Bernie Sanders’ 2006 Senate race….

Bennington Banner, “The best legal form of siphoning“:

… According to recent reports and reports as far back as April of this year in VTDigger, The Washington Post, and Slate Magazine, “substantial portion” amounts to approximately $76.5 million or about 85 percent of the funds transferred to Old Towne Media LLC. It is generally accepted that the company placing the ads retains 15 percent as a commission. And of course, this begs the question of where the balance of the funds, $13.5 million, ended up.

There is a partial answer and, according to a statement in Slate Magazine, Tad Devine, a senior and longtime Sanders consultant, about $4.8 million was paid to his firm, Devine Mulvey Longabaugh, for video productions along with splitting a commission with Old Towne Media LLC…

A question raised is why did his campaign officials feel that it was necessary to place the funds with a company, not two years in business, with no employees, working out of a private residence in Alexandria, Va.? According to the 2016/17 Vermont Business Directory, there are 62 long established advertising/media firms in Vermont. Were any of them given an opportunity to do the ad placements? Also, did his campaign use Vermont banks for the depositories of nearly a quarter of a billion dollars in campaign contributions?

These questions pale next to the big question which state and national media are trying to get answered-who owns Old Towne Media LLC? . Another question is who will be the recipients of the millions of dollars of commissions still left in the company now that the campaign has come to an end? Legally, the balance does not have to be returned to the campaign’s accounts in that it has been earned by Old Towne Media LLC…

To be fair, politics is a career like any other, and a successful politician is one who’s built the equivalent of a self-held business. It’s only logical that the best of such business tend to turn into family firms, with partners and relatives who once worked for free morphing into paid consultants or analysts. But not every successful politician has achieved peak career visibility with a splashy national campaign touting their own fiscal purity and implacable opposition to profiting from their political connections. Maybe it’s not dirty money if it accrues in modest little $27 chunks?

249 replies
  1. 1
  2. 2

    I predict 1000 comments before sunrise on the east coast. Don’t disappoint me fellow jackals and hyenas. Good night!

  3. 3
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Well, that’s why I saved it for late night. But I do this gig for nothing but my own satisfaction, so I feel like I’m entitled to a little gloating, occasionally!

  4. 4
    redshirt says:

    @Anne Laurie: And really, can you imagine these idiots?

  5. 5
    different-church-lady says:

    And now that he’s returned to his Green Mountain home(s), the only people with a real stake in the issue of Sanders’ finances are the voters of Vermont and the media in that unwealthy underpopulated state…

    And yet we have this post.

  6. 6
    amk says:

    greenwald? really, AL?

  7. 7
  8. 8
    Kay says:

    Favorable ratings
    Michelle Obama 64%
    Bill Clinton 49%
    Melania Trump 38%

    Bill Clinton is on the First Lady popularity poll chart now!

    They have to include him :)

  9. 9
  10. 10
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Hold your fire. I’ve got a video overnight open thread cued up.

  11. 11
    Davebo says:

    As I understand it the Sander’s campaign was milked for ad commissions simply because no one imagined they’d raise and spend the amounts they eventually did.

    Most campaigns put a cap on commissions over a certain amount regardless of the total ad buys but not realizing how far the campaign would go that was never done by the Sanders campaign.

    Doesn’t make them crooks, but it is a sign of an amateur campaign manager.

  12. 12
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    It’s a good thing that Bernie isn’t Corrupt™ or anything.


    It’s amazing what we humans will do to excuse the people that we think are in our tribe. Hillary was amazingly transparent, but Bernie is the one that somehow picks up the mantle of fighting Corruption™.

    It’s things like this that make me think that he has no intention of running for re-election in 2018.


  13. 13
    gene108 says:

    Oh well, I guess this is a nice break from all the Trump articles we usually get.

  14. 14
    lamh36 says:

    off to bed…one more day of work then I’m off for a 4 day weekend!!!

    But first…

    USOC issued a statement about Lochte et al…apologizes do Brazil and basically says they believe the events as laid out by 2 other swimmers that nib”robbery” took place…amh

    so one of them vandalised the gas station (Lochte I believe) and then lied about being robbed cause the armed security guards at the gas station made them pay for the vandalism and yes maybe pulled out their guns…I’m betting he claimed robbery cause of the amount of money he had to explain having lost…smh.

    In statement, USOC CEO apologizes for ‘distracting ordeal’ involving American

    Lochte is the one who likely came up with the robbery story

  15. 15
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Adam L Silverman: This one was specifically targeted. Shell-fuse combo was intentional.

  16. 16
    Doug R says:


  17. 17
    Joel says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Aw shit, I burned Fischerspooner and Frou Frou for nothin? Time to go to bed, I guess.

  18. 18
    lamh36 says:

    oh and good lordt I could care less bout Bernie

  19. 19
    hovercraft says:

    I think her point is that even GG. Remember during the primary many of his supporters kept telling us that the fact that she didn’t release the transcripts meant that she had secretly already sold us out to Wall St. We were called corporate schills for defending her, but now we should just let it go? Fuck that, Hillary said she would release her speeches when every one else did, Bernie on the other hand said that as soon as Jane had time, they would release their tax returns. He never did and now I get to call him fill of shit. I barely ever think about him anymore, but when such obvious hypocrisy is exposed I’ll comment.

  20. 20
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @lamh36: From what I understand, Lochte is as smart and thoughtful as a bag of toenail clippings.

  21. 21
    Davebo says:


    USOC issued a statement about Lochte et al…apologizes do Brazil and basically says they believe the events as laid out by 2 other swimmers that nib”robbery” took place…amh

    I’d heard tidbits of this story but nothing substantial. This left me no more informed than before. I know it’s a little late and all but…

  22. 22
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @lamh36: Can I ask how you “know” who did what?

  23. 23

    @Doug R: Not even in Bernie’s wildest dreams!

  24. 24
    MomSense says:


    Will he still be FLOTUS or will someone clever think of something better for him?

  25. 25
    danielx says:

    French fries: $1.50
    Empty french fries box which dieting cat bats off the coffee table, bats upright, sticks her head into and gets stuck on her head with total chaos ensuing: priceless.

  26. 26
    Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again) says:

    I’m shocked. Shocked.

  27. 27
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @danielx: Pix or it didn’t happen.

  28. 28
    redshirt says:

    @Kay: It’s a brave new world. Yes?

  29. 29
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @lamh36: And Lochte rabitted before the Brazilians could put a security hold on him and, at the last report I saw, is in the wind. He left his teammates to take the fall. Hell of a guy!

  30. 30
    Davebo says:


    The choice this election is clear.


  31. 31
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Tracking.

  32. 32
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Joel: You can’t recycle them. I won’t tell.

  33. 33
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again): Did you catch the game tonight? Lacy looks like he learned from last year and is ready to be a monster.

  34. 34
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Kay: As usual, Bill has higher favorability ratings than Hillary, even though a majority of the sins that Hillary gets docked for are wholly Bill’s (sometimes, against her!) or additionally Bill’s.

  35. 35
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I would not post that stuff in an actual music post. Dear god.

  36. 36
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Matt McIrvin: And most of them aren’t really sins.

  37. 37
    Earl says:

    @different-church-lady: Well, what would Anne whine about if not for the obvious secrets lurking in Bernie’s finances between the calendar year 2015 senate disclosure form (filed June 2016) and July 2016? Who knows how many speeches he gave to Goldman Sachs in those 6 months? Besides all the media who would have reported on it.

    And now we’ll never know… until around this time next year when his 2016 disclosure form is filed.

  38. 38
    ruemara says:

    One: Bernie is exactly not the outsider common man radical the propaganda said he is and the media buy story will not make him look any better. Oh well. Worship is unseemly to provide to humans or encourage by humans

    Two: I have an interview tomorrow. I’m not sure how prepared I am but I’m happy to try to escape the crazy.

  39. 39
    dmsilev says:

    @MomSense: At least at one point, Bill suggested that his title should be First Laddy.

  40. 40
    lamh36 says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I said “Lochte I believe” and “Lochte likely” not “I know”.

    The statement drop USOC and the swimmers who were detained said Lochte came up with the robbery…

    The flip side is they 32 year old Ryan Lochte a what 3 time Olympic veteran as lead astray by three 20-23 year old to lie for them.

    but whatever…

  41. 41
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    @ruemara: Best of luck! Knock ’em dead! :-)


  42. 42
    Amir Khalid says:

    Shrug. There are no saints in politics. Requiring as it so often does doing deals and maintaining relationships with unsavoury people, it’s not an inviting field for he pure of heart. i believe that of Hillary Clinton, of Donald Trump, of Barack Obama, of Jill Stein, even of Bernie Sanders. Bernie may have been hiding a literal embarrassment of riches (whether his own or Jane’s). or nothing more heinous than sloppy personal record-keeping. In any case there were other reasons he wasn’t the best Democratic candidate: his failure to use his stump-speech ideals to build a policy agenda; his lack of necessary executive, political, and diplomatic skills, and so on. He’s out of this race, and is likely too old to run again in 2020, so it doesn’t really matter now.

  43. 43
    The Golux says:



    First Himbo of the United States?

  44. 44
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Davebo: Lochte and several teammates went out partying. When they returned to the Olympic Village and their quarters at 6 AM Lochte told authorities they’d been in a taxi, which was stopped by what they thought was police, except the cop robbed them at gunpoint. They were able to protect their IDs, but had to turn their money over. An investigation was begun, but the investigating judge (Brazil has a prosecutorial-investigative system, so some of their judges are investigators) felt the initial surveillance video of them returning to the Olympic Village (taken at the security checkpoint) belied that they’d been robbed at gunpoint. Despite being told not to leave Brazil, Lochte quickly bugged out and supposedly returned the US, but his whereabouts are currently unknown. This resulted in a judicial hold on their travel. Two of his teammates tried to fly home last night, their passports had been flagged because of the hold, and they were taken off their plane by authorities. The fourth teammate did not try to leave and was cooperating. Today, once surveillance footage from the gas station/convenience store came to light it was discovered that Lochte trashed the place, including urinating everywhere, and then had to be stopped from leaving by armed security.

  45. 45
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Davebo: What’s the H for?

  46. 46
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I didn’t click on them, are they that bad?

  47. 47
    rikyrah says:

    I spent part of this evening going through the day’s threads.
    The contempt that you have for Ferret Head is breathtaking.
    It leaps off the computer screen
    All points valid.
    Once again, I wish you would Front page them.

  48. 48
    redshirt says:

    H if you need an escape, I’m here. Click anywhere…..

  49. 49
    Bobby D says:

    Apologies if this has already been pointed out, but here we go, just as predicted. The media insist on making this clownshow into a “horserace”. The top headline on Politico right now:

    ” Regretful Trump pivots 107 days late. The Republican nominee delivers one of the most comprehensive, on-message rationales for his candidacy to date.”
    SMOD, come on own.

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    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @lamh36: All I was saying is that you cited no evidence. You don’t like Lochte. I don’t like Lochte. He seems like a complete d-bag. Do you know anything about the people who were with him? They are the sort of people who would hang out with a complete d-bag. Why assume it was him?

  52. 52
    lamh36 says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: whatever Omnes…you have a good night

  53. 53
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @lamh36: Okay, so they’re both for Clinton. I was trying to figure it out that the second one would have been for Melania. That’s what confused me.

  54. 54
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Adam L Silverman: It was a link to a song from “Frozen.”

  55. 55
    KS in MA says:

    @MomSense: How about “The president’s husband, Bill Clinton…”

    …Nah, they’ll never go for that!

  56. 56
    lamh36 says:

    @Adam L Silverman: that’s how I read them…but I could be wrong

  57. 57
  58. 58
    CaseyL says:

    I vote for “First Laddy,” because we can still use FLOTUS and because it sounds cute.

  59. 59
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Yours I clicked on. The other ones I did not.

  60. 60
    gf120581 says:

    @Bobby D: Not really sure that’s complementary when the headline says “107 days late.” Might as well have just said, “too fucking late.”

  61. 61
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @ruemara: Good luck!

  62. 62
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Earl: Besides all the media who would have reported on it.

    What pisses me off is the way they’re hiding all that great work Bernie is doing with down ticket races to build his Revolution! into a movement. Cause it was never about him

  63. 63
    amk says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: This is not a court, sheesh.

  64. 64
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @lamh36: Whatever yourself. I tend to be defense oriented in the vast majority of criminal law questions that come up here. Thank you for being dismissive though.

  65. 65
    Amir Khalid says:

    On the other hand, I don’t think you want to be encouraging any of Bill’s laddish tendencies.

  66. 66
    MomSense says:


    Good luck!

    Ooh I like First Laddy.

  67. 67
    scav says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Well, go yell at the WaPo then, it certainly seems to be fairly directly cited too. Police discredit Ryan Lochte’s robbery story, say swimmers owe Rio an apology First sentence:

    RIO DE JANEIRO — Brazilian police Thursday accused swimming star Ryan Lochte of fabricating his story of being held up along with three of his U.S. Olympic teammates by armed assailants.

    Further down

    Riera, the attorney who represented Bentz and Conger, said the four swimmers arrived at the gas station seeking to use a restroom, but upon finding there wasn’t one available, two of the men urinated at the back of the station and Lochte punched an advertisement in a metal frame, which fell noisily to the ground and attracted the attention of staff.

    Riera said that when his clients saw the armed robbery story Lochte had told NBC, “They knew it was a lie. But they did not have to go public. They thought this would be forgotten. They did not think it would have a more serious consequence.”

    And then a lot more details about Lochte’s actions that one can click over to. Are we going to have to cite all the accumulating evidence every time we mention his name though?

  68. 68
    Mary G says:

    @ruemara: Your current situation is so chaotic, I hope that this job is more worthy of your talents and you get it. Sometimes not preparing that much let’s you be looser and just go for it. Good luck!

  69. 69
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: O/T, but a criminal law question for you: so FBI Director Comey, on his own initiative and because of the political importance of the investigation, calls a press conference to announce that Secretary Clinton won’t be indicted. As a result of that he is called before two House committees to testify about the investigation and agreed to, and the FBI now has, turned over the investigative record or as much as they feel they can to those committees. How is some of this not a violation of the Privacy Act of 1974? My understanding is that there are sections of the Privacy Act that require the FBI and DOJ to say nothing about an investigation if they aren’t going to say it in court. If you can enlighten me, I’d appreciate it. I’m not saying Director Comey needs to be investigated or broke the law or anything, just confused.

  70. 70
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I know!!!

    At this meeting [on August 24], I and others will lay out some of the next steps we can take as a movement to empower a wave of progressive candidates this November and win the major upcoming fights for the values we share. We’ll also talk about how you can be a key movement builder in your community for Our Revolution.

    He’s fighting to elect Hillary and fighting to Stop Trump just like he promised!!!1 But the Media just won’t report it!1



  71. 71
    Mike J says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    I predict 1000 comments before sunrise on the east coast. Don’t disappoint me fellow jackals and hyenas. Good night!

    I”ll do my part. Just like Trump, Bernie is who we thought he was. Not a dime’s worth of difference between them.

  72. 72
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @scav: Fine. I’ll accept that. Lamh36 offered only her opinion. And I responded to that.

  73. 73
    Elie says:


    Wishing you the BEST!

    Good things will happen…..

  74. 74
  75. 75
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @ruemara: Good luck with your interview.

  76. 76
    danielx says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I was first laughing too hard and then trying to catch her while she was in high speed reverse to get a camera device or focus it.

  77. 77
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Adam, I would have to do some research on that. It is not something on which I could make an instant call.

  78. 78
    lamh36 says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: and I say you can damn well google the fuckin information yourself if you wanted to not be a dick instead of turning every damn comment into a damn law school debate or law lecture…newsflash this ain’t no law school and this ain’t know court of law…

    Seeing and responding to every fuqn thing in the prism of a defense atty even when not even some legal argument is aggravating as fuq and so it makes you aggravating

    again…what da fuq ever and you do you,

  79. 79
    No One You Know says:

    @ruemara: Good luck! I’m rooting for you.

  80. 80
    Davebo says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I think if nothing else it should be similar to an IG investigation in the federal government. IE, the investigation never exists publicly unless wrongdoing is found and generally, action taken.

    The downside of that is that in reality, people do know about an IG investigation, perhaps not the public but those either questioned or otherwise made aware of it. And no one is ever cleared of wrongdoing in such an investigation. It’s either dropped or some action is taken if allegations prove to have merit.

    I’ve experienced this second hand and it sucks.

  81. 81
    randy khan says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    lamh’s opinion seems fairly likely to be right, given the reports that are now coming out.

  82. 82
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Paul Waldman ‏@ paulwaldman1 1h1 hour ago
    You literally have your own television show.
    Greta Van Susteren @ greta
    I would spend my own money to do documentary on inner cities in USA-but could I get anyone to air it? So that people see what is going on?

    GVS is having some kind of twitter spasm tonight, bleating for somebody, somewhere to cover the inner city, the progress of cancer research and… global warming. Walkman’s response seems appropriate to all of her tweets.
    (I don’t usually pay her any attention, maybe this is typical, I just laugh Waldman’s response)

  83. 83
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Okay. No rush, it was just something that’s been nagging at me on and off. The news reported out tonight that when interviewed Secretary Clinton informed the FBI that Secretary Powell had recommended she set up a private email system back in early 2009. I have no doubt that he would recommend such a thing as he found it helpful when he was running State. I also have no doubt that neither Secretary Clinton, nor Secretary Powell, were intending for this to become public knowledge. So that’s what’s driving the question. And thanks.

  84. 84

    Saw some nice stencils in my neighborhood(s) today, QUEERS HATE TECHIES. Willing to bet I’ve been here longer than whoever sprayed those. Nice endcap to my day. Assholes.

  85. 85
    The Lodger says:

    @Bobby D: SMOD? Would that be Secret Masters of Dumbassery?

  86. 86
    grandpa john says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I hope that one of her first acts on being sworn in is to request to see his resignation on her desk in a very short time.

  87. 87
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Davebo: I’m sure. And sorry to read that.

  88. 88
    lamh36 says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I certainly did offer my opinion as did a number of others people as well…but YOU once again decided to turn my opinion comment into something else entirely…same as you have done before…

    but again…WHATEVER…you do you and leave me the fuq alone…ok?


  89. 89
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I saw that, all well and good, I don’t know why he couldn’t have done some more campaigning before now, but… Welcome back to the campaign, Bernie.

    I will say, this part:

    I and others

    scares me.

  90. 90
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @lamh36: Got it. Sorry that I aggravate you. It has never been my intention. Can you tell me how I should respond to issues involving criminal law so that I am not so aggravating in the future?

  91. 91
    amk says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Literally that’s a bcracker rouser.

  92. 92
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @grandpa john: My guess is he’ll serve out his appointment. If she requests his resignation or tries to push him out, it’ll be spun as her retaliating against him. And if the GOP still controls the House, will give Chaffetz an excuse for another investigation.

  93. 93
    Nom de Plume says:

    @Bobby D: I was trying to figure out this latest “pivot”, and a commenter on Daily Kos helpfully pointed out that this is not so much an apology for past actions as a warning about the future. Shit is about to get ugly, and Donald is saying “Don’t take it personal, I’m just telling the truth”. is in charge of his campaign now. There will be no pivot.

  94. 94
    scav says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: But then, answer the other question. Will we be expected to provide suitably linked publicly available text for all statements involving opinions on anyone, carefully maintaining a constant, re-iterated, courtroom-ready discourse (to your impeccable standards) in a non-legal setting where dog-shit photos are greeted with glee? How far down the rabbit hole of citing details from news sources are we expected to go before we can assume things become common knowledge so we can concentrate our limited links to footnoting other details to courtroom standards?

  95. 95
    cmorenc says:


    Bill Clinton is on the First Lady popularity poll chart now!

    …so long as he doesn’t take it too far and become a ladyboy :=)

  96. 96
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Adam L Silverman: The news reported out tonight that when interviewed Secretary Clinton informed the FBI that Secretary Powell had recommended she set up a private email system back in early 2009.

    Zounds. I just had MSNBC on in the background and wondered why people were suddenly talking about Powell.

  97. 97
    Glidwrith says:

    @ruemara: Wishing you much luck!

  98. 98
    trollhattan says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    As someone who remembers Munich vividly I have zero fvcks to give WRT athlete hijinks, so long as they don’t cause actual harm. These are days to be enjoyed at face value.

  99. 99
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @lamh36: Just saw this. Fine. You don’t ever want me to respond to you again. Got it. Can’t guarantee that it won’t happen. But fine.

  100. 100

    For this bird, one of the most discouraging things about current US Presidential campaign, and indeed about current global politics, is the inability to unify, even against terrible enemies. I am recalled to Germany in 1932, where the Social Democrats and the Communists together had the votes to defeat the Nazis, but could not form a coalition, not even long enough to do that desperately necessary thing. So now we have the Democratic Party in the USA having difficulties coming together to defeat Trump, even though this is desperately necessary. — Towards a theory of leadership on the left

    Please, please, come back from there. I’ve been telling Sanders supporters that it’s important we unify. Now I’m telling Clinton supporters here the same thing. Clinton’s polling looks good now, but margins usually narrow as election day draws near. After 81 days of Bannon’s anti-Clinton propaganda, and Conway’s excuse-making for Trump, who knows where we will be?

    Please, everyone, it’s not the time for Democrats to be trolling each other.

  101. 101
    amk says:

    @Adam L Silverman: If she is elected, I don’t think she will have any more fucks to give about how the thugs feel or act.

  102. 102

    @cmorenc: not that there’s anything wrong with that.

  103. 103
    lamh36 says:

    @ruemara: good luck on your interview!

    I had a phone interview a week ago and it did not go as well as I had hoped. hoping you have a better outcome than I had

  104. 104
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Nom de Plume: The law and order speech Monday night, and the appeals to African Americans in tonight’s speech – specifically that Democrats have caused their problems, take them for granted, and they should instead support Trump and the GOP – has now been reported as being written by Senator Session’s staffers. What this means is it was written by one former Senator Sessions’ staffer: Stephen Miller. Miller, to adapt a phrase used for David Addison and VP Cheney, is Senator Sessions’ Sessions. He was also handed off from Senator Sessions to Trump several months ago and is, for whatever it is worth, the chief ideologue of the Trump campaign. He’s the son of an affluent Jewish-American family who seems to have developed an early sense of grievance and resentment that could only be mollified through revanchist ideology and ratfucking.

  105. 105
    Mike J says:

    @The Lodger: Sweet meteor of death

  106. 106
    trollhattan says:

    @Raven Onthill:
    To be perfectly frank even if my name isn’t Frank the most vociferous of Berniebros probably were never Dems to begin with so aren’t in play. As the Trump! shitstorm keeps peeling back layers thinking people will continue knowing what to do.

  107. 107
    divF says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    Le Sigh.

    While there is much to disdain among the entitled, self-absorbed techie crowd, my observation is that there are a significant number of good-hearted techies, including a substantial queer nerd contingent, who are trying to do right by the community. They may be flawed, but they are potential allies.

  108. 108
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @scav: She offered an opinion. I noted that it was only an opinion. That is all. If I say that Scott Walker blows goats in his spare time, people can reasonably ask why I say that.

  109. 109
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I was snarking earlier.

    Bernie isn’t working to elect progressives in November. He’s working to build an organization that he calls “Our Revolution” to try to keep his name in the news and raise money and somehow stay relevant. “Empowering” people is a weasel word this late in the cycle. If he has any sense, he knows that it’s too late to choose candidates for November. The candidates are locked in (or effectively so if there are still primaries remaining).

    If Bernie had any sense, he would realize that the best thing to increase the chances of enacting more progressive policies is electing more Democrats of any type. Democrats pick the leadership, and the leadership determines who controls the committees, what gets voted on, and the rules that are in place on how legislation is considered. Electing a handful of purity ponies that can rile up their base about how defective any legislation is because it’s not perfect from the get go isn’t going to help things. But Bernie’s still more interested in being Pure than being Effective.

    My $0.02.

    (The shot put guys are amazing. That 16 pound rock weighs more than my old bowling ball.)

  110. 110

    @divF: I know. I am one. There are times when I have to be reticent about my profession if I’m being honest about my sexuality.

  111. 111
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: There also seems to be some corroboration. Joe Conason has a book coming out in a month or so that covers a dinner hosted by Secretary Albright at her DC home for the incoming Secretary Clinton. The invitees were all the living Secretaries of State. Basically and informal “welcome to the club and here’s what you need to know regardless of party, ideology, and/or partisanship”. As much as I dislike Secretary Rice for her failure as National Security Advisor and agree that Secretary Kissinger should have been tried long ago for war crimes, that this type of thing is done is, in general, a good thing. The reporting on her statement to the FBI includes the speculation that the advise was given at this dinner.

  112. 112
  113. 113
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @trollhattan: I was just answering a question.

  114. 114

    @trollhattan: I’m not worried about most vociferous who, as you say, are unlikely to become Clinton supporters. I’m worried about the ones — and I know three — who are wavering and being discouraged by Clintonites. Please, we are on the edge of disaster and we need everyone on deck for this one.

    (It would be nice to have an election were I wouldn’t have to write that last sentence, but we haven’t had one of those in over a decade.)

  115. 115
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @amk: She doesn’t have any now. But she does have to outlast them. And one way to do that is to not give them excuses. I think she’s learned that lesson the hard way and will adjust accordingly in the future.

  116. 116
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I was snarking earlier.

    I figured, I was just taking St Bernard at his word that his efforts are about this cycle, and I guess it’s not technically too late, and maybe he can reignite some enthusiasm for some of the Senate candidates he has not yet deemed worthy of his sainted blessing, beyond the two he’s endorsed, the two who most likely didn’t need it.

    But seriously, that “I, and others”… He has not shown himself to be a great judge of opening acts and back up performers.

  117. 117

    @divF: being gay doesn’t get me into nearly as much social trouble as being in tech. It’s frankly bizarro world out here.

  118. 118
    Anoniminous says:

    @Raven Onthill:

    Sanders has said Hillary Clinton is the Democratic nominee and I will vigorously support her and

    I understand that many of my supporters are disappointed by the final results of the nominating process, but being despondent and inactive is not going to improve anything. Going forward and continuing the struggle is what matters. And, in that struggle, the most immediate task we face is to defeat Donald Trump.

    Some Sanders supporters were never, ever, going to vote for Hillary. Most Sanders supporters will support her.

    I can understand, if have little patience with, petulant losers. Petulant winners, on the other hand, are just annoying.

  119. 119
    Adam L Silverman says:

    Overnight, music open thread is up!

  120. 120
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Raven Onthill: Well. what do you want? Act on it.

  121. 121
    The Ancient Randonneur says:

    @Raven Onthill: They are upset because people are saying mean things about Bernie in the comment section of a blog or on social media?

  122. 122

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’d presume Raven wants to vent in a blog comment section at the moment.

  123. 123
    divF says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I know.

    Fortunately, when people ask me what I do for a living, I tell them that I’m a mathematician, which totally flummoxes them. In fact, it is a branch of tech, but not recognized as such by the general public.

  124. 124
    scav says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: A) That’s not answering the question. B) It is also a somewhat lenient interpretation of your actions and tone, especially given your observed character and interactions over time.

  125. 125

    @divF: I sometimes do the same with ‘librarian’.

  126. 126
  127. 127
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Meh, I just got slammed by regular. I am a bit off the community thing right now.

  128. 128
    amk says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Be that as it may, I am betting hillz in comey out, come Jan 2017. Especially if the dems take the senate.


    In theory, they serve ten-year terms unless they resign, die, or are removed, but in reality, since J. Edgar Hoover, none have served a full ten years, except Robert Mueller, who served twelve years.

  129. 129
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @The Ancient Randonneur: Yeah, I’m having a hard time imagining these people. “I’m concerned about global warming, tax policy, social security, access to health care, employment policies, gay rights, reproductive freedoms, and having a Putin-worshpping madman in the Oval Offie, but then somebody was snarky on twitter…. so I just don’t know…”

    @Raven Onthill: Do your friends dress, bathe and feed themselves?

  130. 130
    Omnes Omnibus says:


    It is also a somewhat lenient interpretation of your actions and tone, especially given your observed character and interactions over time.

    Talk to me.

  131. 131
    Jack the Second says:

    Bill Clinton should just be the First Lady.

    Gendered titles are so 20th century. We’re not going to call Hillary Clinton the Presidentrix or the Presidentess. We can call all actors “actors”, regardless of whether they are men or women. Let’s just let “First Lady” be the title for the spouse of any chief executive, regardless of gender.

    If we’re OK applying a traditionally male title to women, we should be OK applying a traditionally female title to men.

  132. 132

    @Jack the Second: Well, “President” isn’t a gendered term, though.

  133. 133

    @The Ancient Randonneur: “They are upset because people are saying mean things about Bernie in the comment section of a blog or on social media?”

    No. Personal. Face-to-face. At party caucuses.

    Don’t troll. Don’t make excuses for trolling. Every vote counts.

    The enemy is over there. Do you remember it.

  134. 134
    The Ancient Randonneur says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yep. It must be painful being that easily offended.

  135. 135
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @amk: I’m aware of how it works. Removing him right away is just not that important. The first fight will be filling the Supreme Court vacancy. That’s either going to require abolishing the filibuster for good for appointments or its going to be a huge fight against McConnell seeking to keep the seat open, because if the American people had wanted her to fill vacancies, they would have elected a Democratic majority in the Senate. And this fight is going to hold up every other Executive Branch nomination. Personnel is policy. And, in some cases, being unable to staff department heads that require Senatorial approval means those departments can’t function. Given that this is the terrain of the battlefield, it makes no sense to engage in a needless skirmish.

  136. 136
    RK says:

    But not every successful politician has achieved peak career visibility with a splashy national campaign touting their own fiscal purity and implacable opposition to profiting from their political connections.

    FIscal purity wasn’t the issue; being owned by big money was. Nice try though.

  137. 137

    @RK: The Clintons have more than enough money. They aren’t ‘owned’. Nice try, though.

  138. 138
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @scav: Do please explain my observed character and interactions over time.

  139. 139
    amk says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Oh, I think she can walk and chew gum at the same time, regardless of the butthurt of the thugs. Everything is a fucking fight with the thugs, so no bfd.

    Here is a ‘radical idea’. A first woman FBI director?

  140. 140
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Jack the Second:

    Bill Clinton should just be the First Lady.

    You’re kidding, tight?

  141. 141
    Jack the Second says:

    @Major Major Major Major: :-)

    We could be having “governesses”, “mayoresses”, etc etc, which are all gendered terms. We have instead plenty of women governors and mayors. The female priests I know are just … priests, not priestesses.

    Therefore, First Lady Bill Clinton.

  142. 142
    Mike J says:

    @Raven Onthill:

    who are wavering and being discouraged by Clintonites.

    WATB. It’s over they lost, and every vote we don’t get from a purity pony we’ll get from somebody who thinks Kissinger is swell.

  143. 143
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    @Raven Onthill: I understand where you’re coming from, but it’s not a symmetrical situation. Hillary won. Bernie said that he is going to do “everything” he can to elect Hillary and defeat Donnie. But to date his actions aren’t backing up those strong words. (He’s pushing his “Our Revolution” thing about 100x harder than he is pushing electing Hillary.) He caused a lot of damage to her during the campaign (Corrupt™, Millionaires and Billionaires buying our Campaign Finance System™, etc.) and he has some responsibility in trying to mitigate that damage.

    It would be different if the vociferous Bernie supporters were trying to participate in the party now to elect Hillary and expand the coattails, but too often it’s more of the same stuff about Hillary being damaged and horrible and stealing the nomination and all the rest.

    Hillary’s reached out in concrete ways to Bernie supporters. Has that been reciprocated?

    Party unity is great and important. But wasting efforts on dead-enders isn’t productive.

    Maybe you’re taking my comments in this thread as trolling. That’s not my intent, though I’m sure it can be taken that way. It’s more frustration that, IMO, Bernie is actually weakening his position and the fight for more progressive policies by continuing to play the outsider – and I think it’s worthwhile to point that out.

    My $0.02. YMMV.


  144. 144
    trollhattan says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    I know. I’m driven to distraction by folks who are hung up on trivial things while the games are still on. Sheesh, go watch badminton or something.

  145. 145

    @Jack the Second: We have abbesses and prioresses though. Oddly.

  146. 146
    RK says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    You somehow managed to miss the point.

  147. 147

    @RK: Easy to miss a point that was never made.

  148. 148
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Raven Onthill: It’s almost like the Sanders crowd specializes in emotional blackmail. “Well, I don’t know, I still MIGHT change my mind, but anything is possible, why don’t you ask nicely and see what happens?” Fuck that.

  149. 149
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @efgoldman: Came up after I asked.

  150. 150
    danielx says:


    If she is elected, I don’t think she will have any more fucks to give about how the thugs feel or act.

    She would be starting off without any of Obama’s (or maybe David Brooks*) illusions about how if he just reached out and conceded more then great things would happen. Her attitude is going to be more along the lines of “remember when Karl Rove said a winning margin is a mandate? fuck you, fellas…”

    Which is good. This shit needs to be rejected, stamped out, crushed, and resoundingly so. Electoral defeat at a generational level is the only thing that will stop it. Trump is currently polling ahead in my fair state, and it won’t do.

    *If HRC wins, the day after she is elected the Villagers will be wielding keyboards with might and main to the effect that she really, really needs to reach out to her opponents and those who voted for them, because reasons…I’d bet fifty bucks against a stale doughnut this will be the case. Like the only thing Trump (if he won) and his supporters would extend to those who didn’t vote for him wouldn’t be a fist, probably with matching blunt object….

  151. 151
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @amk: I think you’re missing my point. This isn’t about her being able to do more than one thing at a time. It is about how the process works in the Senate and the two possible ways the nomination fights are going to go. Remember, she can no longer make recess appointments as they’re now unconstitutional for all but the brief windows between Congresses. So that weapon is gone. Its either her Senatorial majority blowing up the Senate’s rules or McConnell holding his line if he maintains the majority. This isn’t is Clinton smart. Its not is she capable. Its not can she keep all her plates spinning. Its what is the battlefield? Where is the enemy? And how to concentrate them on terrain of your choosing so you have an asymmetric advantage, fix them in place, and win the engagement. She doesn’t control the Senatorial terrain. She may have allies that will. If so, she has to rely on them. If she doesn’t have those allies, then she has to figure out how to get her people appointed through irregular means. And because of the Senate’s rules, the removal of recess appointments, and the fact that Americans don’t care about either of those things, and less about cabinet or supreme court appointments, she’ll have precious few irregular ways and means to achieve the objective.

  152. 152
    Bobby D says:

    @ruemara: Hey, me too. Good luck to you!
    I treat them like a conversation, have no nerves at all, and feel that I’m interviewing them as much as they are me. Part of that is knowing I have lots of offers, part is me working in mgmt where I do a lot of interviewing/hiring and am used to be on the other side of the deal.

  153. 153
    amk says:

    @danielx: heck, msm fellators are still going on how the kenyan did not ‘reach out’ and touch the thugs.

  154. 154
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @trollhattan: Badminton is not really my speed. I have enjoyed the men’s and women’s rugby and soccer. As well as the women’s gymnastics and the swimming. I’ve watched, as the schedule permits, some of the wrestling (caught the USA woman gold medal win today while looking up from my workout at the gym), boxing, archery, weightlifting, fencing, and shooting.

  155. 155
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Jack the Second:
    There’s this little problem that Bil Clinton is rather obviously not a lady …

  156. 156
    Hob says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I can’t remember if you’re in the SF Bay Area, but if so, I’m pretty sure the kinds of posters you’re talking about are being put up by a really small number of people who are trying to look like a movement. They all have exactly the same aggro-posturing tone and total lack of humor. Actual activists have better things to do, and usually understand it’s bad form to make anonymous ultimatums that claim to speak for an entire population.

  157. 157
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    @danielx: No, no. She can’t go to NMFLTG mode until December 2022 because there are mid-term elections in 2018, and she’ll be running for re-election in 2020, and more mid-terms in 2022, and she has to be “bi-partisan” or the voters will punish her.


    Seriously though, I think she and the Democrats will learn the lesson of Obama’s first 2 years – they have to push through what they can while they have the majority. They can’t count of keeping the Senate in January 2019 (and they won’t have a compelling case for why they should keep it without being able to point to real accomplishments that they can run on). Redistricting after the 2020 Census will shape the government for 10 years or more and that will be a battle that will be won or lost in the next 3 elections. I think she and the Democrats know this, so the goal will be real progress and real accomplishments, not bogus feel-good fake “bipartisanship” and “centrist compromise” and that makes the pundits happy but doesn’t actually help people.

    But we’ll see.


  158. 158
    Jack the Second says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Those are all dark age titles, though. Sometime in the last thirty or forty years we stopped feeling the need to give women new titles when they invade traditionally male positions. We no longer need to distinguish, the way a 17th century man did, between abbots and abbesses, dukes and duchesses, ladies and gentlemen. The role of the person is the same, regardless of gender, and we no longer need to emphasize the gender of the office holder.

  159. 159
    amk says:

    @Adam L Silverman: No, you are still fixated on the ‘process’ aka coddling the thugs. In 2017, the dems, if things go their way, will get to fix that process, which they will given how the ‘process’ worked out for them in the last 8 years. The clintons are smart enough to fix that with a dem majority. That’s my take any way. We shall see.

  160. 160
    danielx says:


    He was laboring under the illusion that if the oppo realized at the start he was willing to concede some things to get some things done for the country, they’d work with him. Right then and there he was semi-doomed – if your opponent knows you’re willing to concede things right off the bat, what motivation does he or she have to compromise on anything? And why wouldn’t he or she keep asking for more and/or refusing to discuss anything at all?

  161. 161
    frosty says:


    I tell them that I’m a mathematician, which totally flummoxes them. In fact, it is a branch of tech, but not recognized as such by the general public.

    It’s easier being an engineer. We’re the Dumb Jocks of STEM. The general public doesn’t give us any crap. Usually.

  162. 162
    Hob says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Oh yeah, I forgot there were also some particularly nasty posters (literally threatening techies with mugging) that did have an identifiable source – they were from SF Gay Shame. I don’t think that’s a very big group these days, but they definitely are legends in their own minds – they sign all their stuff with the tagline “A Virus in the System”, which to me is exactly as impressive as if I signed all my stuff “Hob the Awesome Rebel.”

  163. 163

    @Hob: Ugh, those guys. Yeah, I remember those. (Were they the same people that did ‘Joggers Always Carry Cash’ with a picture of Zuckerberg? Which I shouldn’t need to point out is problematic on another level)

    I haven’t felt this uncomfortable in years, though. This stuff seems to be coming to a peak around here. Like, hi, we’re still hunted to extinction in many parts of the world, can we not eat our own?

  164. 164
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @amk: I’m not focused on coddling anyone. The Senate is composed of 100 people who all think they are more important than each other and, at least, as important as the President. If the Democrats take the majority and are willing to blow up the filibuster for Supreme Court appointments and ignore blue slips, public, and private (pocket) holds she’ll be okay. But if they just do the first thing and don’t do anything about the rest, they’ll get the Supreme Court vacancy filled and that will be it. So the question is whether Senator Leahy is going to put the interests of the country ahead of his regard for the rules of the Senate. He’s never chosen the former when its come up against the latter, and he’ll be judiciary chairman again, so don’t bet the farm on that.

    And if they don’t get the majority in the Senate, then there’s nothing to fix as there’s no ability to fix it. She can’t abolish the Senate and she can’t ignore them. And if Senator McConnell is still majority leader, which will mean that Paul Ryan is still Speaker of the House, then her only leverage is to veto everything they send her and to keep calling them back into actual session so they can’t go home Friday morning and not come back till Monday night and they can’t go on vacation every three weeks. While this will screw with their family life and mess up campaigning and fundraising, it also won’t accomplish anything other than making the majority in both chambers even angrier with her, less likely to cooperate, and more likely to just not pass anything including a budget.

    We’re not electing a Prime Minister and a Parliament. We’re electing a President and separately we’re electing Senators and Congresspeople. She can’t force them to do their damn jobs. She can’t round them up and have them arrested. And she can’t simply dispose of them. It doesn’t matter that she knows better than anyone ever running for the Presidency just what she’s up against. Or how tough she is. All that matters, all that ever matters, is power. Can you do what you say you’re going to do. That’s it.

  165. 165
    divF says:


    We’re the Dumb Jocks of STEM.

    Heh. However, I married into a family of engineers, so I know better.

  166. 166
  167. 167
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Jack the Second:
    Surely not to the extent of calling a man a lady. That way lies confusion. The title given to the wife of a male POTUS is in any case an informal one, and people can agree on some suitable equivalent for Bill Clinton when the need arises. As long as it’s not First Lady, because we do still need to distinguish between ladies and gentlemen.

    By the way, Da Church would not appoint an abbess to lead a monastery full of male monks, nor an abbott to lead a nunnery. And in aristocratic systems around the world. a duke’s social and ceremonial role is still very different from a duchess’ — especially where one holds the actual title, with whatever powers and rights there are, and the spouse is a consort.

  168. 168
    daves09 says:

    @efgoldman: Well, the scare quotes on know are kinda sketchy, but at least you didn’t put *you* in italics. Came across as* who are you to have any opinion.*
    By the way this news is old, been breaking all day, so, low information you.
    This was meant for omnes, hellfire and damnation.

  169. 169
    different-church-lady says:

    @efgoldman: I can no longer figure out whether the larger problem was the claim that Bernie was pure or the claim that everyone who wasn’t Bernie was impure.

  170. 170
    different-church-lady says:

    What the hell is wrong with “First Gentleman”? Why is this even difficult?

  171. 171
    Jack the Second says:

    @Amir Khalid: Why does Bill Clinton’s gender matter to how he fulfills the role of First Lady? Will he be hindered by not having a vagina and instead having a penis?

    If Hillary Clinton is elected President, Bill Clinton will be stepping into a role with over two hundred years of history and tradition. Why should we change the name of it just because he has an XY chromosome pair instead of an XX? Do you think people will honestly be confused when they meet “First Lady Bill Clinton” and he’s a man?

  172. 172

    @different-church-lady: Doesn’t bother me, but I guess people gotta talk about something.

  173. 173
    different-church-lady says:

    @Jack the Second:

    Will he be hindered by not having a vagina and instead having a penis?

    Consider his track record.

  174. 174
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    @different-church-lady: Too many syllables.

    I like “#1”. Takes care of all the gender issues, and is short and sweet.


  175. 175
    different-church-lady says:

    @Jack the Second: So, it’s Mr. President when addressing Hillary then?

  176. 176
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jack the Second: Actually, despite what the press and others might speculate, he’ll be referred to as President Clinton. Protocol is one is addressed by the title that accompanies the highest rank achieved. President outranks everything else in the US, including the title of First Lady. So he will, officially, be referred to as President Clinton.

  177. 177
    different-church-lady says:

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: You are number six.

  178. 178
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @different-church-lady: Madame President.

  179. 179
    Jack the Second says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Can it at least be the Dowager President Clinton, to distinguish him from the current President Clinton?

  180. 180
    different-church-lady says:

    @Adam L Silverman: But Jack is claiming gender does not matter.

    As for Bill, he might be directly addressed as Mr. President. But what will his role be described as? Nobody addresses Michelle Obama as “Ms. First Lady” or anything. We’re talking about the position, not the the method of address.

  181. 181
    Jack the Second says:

    @different-church-lady: I’ve always thought “Mr President” was a little redundant. We don’t say “Mr General” or “Mr Pope”. Why don’t people just address the President as “President”?

    (Actually, I could imagine Woody Allen saying “Excuse me, Mr Pope, sir, …”)

  182. 182
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jack the Second: I doubt it. I’m to bed. You all have a nice night/morning.

  183. 183
    different-church-lady says:

    @Jack the Second: Well, we say “Mr. President” when addressing, and “President Smith” when referring. We say “General” when addressing and “General Smith” when referring. We say “Your Holiness” when addressing and “Pope Smitty” when referring.

    Life just ain’t a consistent thing.

  184. 184
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    @different-church-lady: That show was weird.


  185. 185
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Jack the Second:

    Why does Bill Clinton’s gender matter to how he fulfills the role of First Lady?

    Why are you so insistent on calling Bill Clinton a Lady? It would look weird, especially in formal situations, and invite mockery The whole point of formal etiquette is to avoid that.

  186. 186

    @Amir Khalid: I thought the whole point of formal etiquette was to invite mockery at people who don’t know it.

  187. 187
    Dmbeaster says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Can you tell me how I should respond to issues involving criminal law so that I am not so aggravating in the future?

    Here is a suggestion. Stop turning an ordinary discussion about what seems to have happened into a closing argument based on reasonable doubt. It is a dickish move.

  188. 188
    different-church-lady says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Well, that pretty much covers everyone here.

  189. 189
    Amir Khalid says:

    Jack seems to be willfully missing the point that gender does matter when referring to or addressing specific people in formal situations.

  190. 190
    different-church-lady says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Can you tell me how I should respond to issues involving criminal law so that I am not so aggravating in the future?


  191. 191
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    That is a secondary function of formal etiquette, not the primary one.

  192. 192
    different-church-lady says:

    @Amir Khalid: We’re in real trouble when we get our first trans-gender president in 2024.

  193. 193
  194. 194
    Dmbeaster says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    specifically that Democrats have caused their problems, take them for granted, and they should instead support Trump and the GOP

    Right wing idiots have been saying this for years, and they are saying it for each other’s benefit rather than targeting a black audience. As if blacks are too stupid to understand which party speaks for their issues, and which party is now openly racist. Maybe, just maybe, they are able to make a rational and well-informed decision, and they are making it when rejecting Trump at a rate of over 90%.

  195. 195
    scav says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Sorry, obsessive research gene kicked in so I’ve been doing actual work. But no, I don’t really have time to footnote my general impression / opinion of your conversational style (especially late at night) gathered from multiple years of reading her. Everyone has a style that serves them for better or worse, and how it serves them varies by context, so flexibility might be a virtue depending upon intent of course.

  196. 196
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I thought the whole point of formal etiquette was to invite mockery at people who don’t know it.

    No, the point to formal etiquette — at least for the last couple hundred years — is to have a rulebook so that people don’t get bent out of shape about their “status”. At its purest, things like state dinners are status negotiations (i.e., the alternative to warfare), and ideally formal etiquette codifies every possible situation, so that even the lowliest guest might feel inadequate but they shouldn’t feel disrespected.

    The whole What do we call Bill Clinton if his wife is president is a whimsy of pretend-etiquette for bored media outlets and late-night blog commentors.

  197. 197
    amk says:

    Four views of Ryan Lochte


    “Maybe he’s just a lunk, or a doofus, or a Faulknerian idiot man-child, or the real-world analogue of Moose from Archie. There are all sorts of unflattering descriptors that might apply to Ryan Lochte.”

    Washington Post:

    “There is a special category of obnoxious American ‘bro’ that Lochte represents, in his T-shirt and jeans and expensive suede footwear, which he showed off on Instagram that night at the party along with the price tag. ‘We’re 6k deep here,’ he captioned it. Is there anything worse, in any country, than a bunch of entitled young drunks who break the furniture and pee on a wall?”

    San Francisco Chronicle:

    “It doesn’t matter what else Lochte has done in his Olympic career. This cemented his legacy: most embarrassing Olympic athlete.”

    New York Post:

    “He cried wolf and was called on it, and that will be his burden to bear for a good long while – but not his alone. The Ugly American is alive and well in 2016 thanks to this dope.”

    And no, I am not giving out the linky.

  198. 198
    gwangung says:

    Personally, I think pointing out Sanders’ malfeasance on campaign finance is useful only to the extent that it points out a lot of people were fooling themselves on what they were supporting; the evidence was there that Sanders was less than optimal as a choice—and people should apply this lesson in the future.

    The real problems are in the legislative areas, and that’s where the effort should be focussed, to cut down as much as possible on the number and power of obstructionist Freedom Caucus idiots, as well as to elect more Democratic politicians—of ANY sort. Blue Dog Dems are hell of a lot better than current Republicans.

    We got our wish in getting rid of Blue Dog Dems—now we have to live with the consequences of that.

  199. 199
    Bjacques says:

    First Clenis?

    I’ll get my coat

  200. 200

    They do think blacks are that stupid. That is why they’re racists. It’s part of the credo. Racists way below the ‘white supremacist’ level believe all the offensive bullshit about cultures of dependency and the need for stronger police. So, yes, I think they’re usually actually addressing blacks as an attempt at outreach. That is how far their heads are stuck up their asses.

  201. 201
    Cat48 says:

    AL, I’m sure Bernie will account for,every penny of the money once he finishes his vacation in his brand new $600,000 Summer lake house’. I kid.

  202. 202
    J R in WV says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    NBC ran first a video of a reporter visiting a filling station in Rio, between the French House where the party was and the Olympic Village, and then showed CCW video of 4 US swimmers walking thru a narrow walkway to vandalize the property, then being confronted by “security” guards for the station who made the “boys” pay for the damage they had done.

    Looked like the guy who flew home to the US early the next morning did the damage. Later reports included women who may have been paid for their company, so more party than they could have “procured” here in the US.

  203. 203
    J R in WV says:


    Lots of new chief executives ask for resignation letters from “everyone” and then go through them to pick the ones they plan to accept and the ones they don’t.

    If I were her, I would look for a LEO willing to go after crooked right wingers, regardless of their money or political power, and set that person and the whole FBI on those rat fuckers like my dog on a chipmunk under a stump. Because they break every boundary every day and for years no one has been willing to take them on.

  204. 204
    Robert Sneddon says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I had occasion to have a shuftie at the Treasonous Slaveholders Charter you Americans revere so much and there’s a couple of places in Article II where the President is specifically referred to as “he”.

  205. 205
    J R in WV says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Weel, she can’t arrest them, but she could ask Three Letter Agencies to provide members of Senate and House with 24 hour protection, to eliminate their private lives. Tough to make those millions of funny dollars many congresspeople seem to grow with a LEO watching every meeting, every dinner, every car you park beside.

    While the first week it may feel like a wonderful perk of office, that “perk” feeling would go away the first time they wanted to pick up a secretary for some tickle and giggle fun. Plus being in session 6 days a week. That would all get old, but so does being disrespected.

  206. 206
    Robert Sneddon says:

    @Jack the Second: Apparently back around the time of the Second Treasonous Slaveholders Rebellion the appellation for the POTUS was “Your Excellency”. This fell out of favour at some point in time.

  207. 207
    Aimai says:

    @hovercraft: right. We are still feeling the effects of the bernfeelers toxic attacks on hillary but now everyone is all “be the bigger person” and ” let bygones be bygones”? Has bernie campaigned for hillary? Or used his millions to take back the house? He is absolutely fair game for criticism. The statute of limitations has not run out for political criticism of a political actor who is still in politics.

  208. 208
    Taylor says:

    @J R in WV: Patrick Fitzgerald.

  209. 209
    Aimai says:

    @Raven Onthill: they arent democrats.

  210. 210
    amk says:

    @Adam L Silverman: You are putting out not.gonna.happen far out scenarios in para 3. And yes, you are still talking about the process, which has been a total failure in last 8 years, if not earlier. If the dems win WH and the senate, it is a vote for repudiation of such a vile and destructive process and I can see the dems going the whole yard to make it work again, as it was intended to be. If it is a landslide, fuck filibuster.

  211. 211
    Bobby Thomson says:

    Janie’s got a grift
    Janie’s got a grift
    Old man’s a fucking fraud
    Off his dead enders should sod
    Greenwald hasn’t got a clue
    About the man’s IOU
    He tried to stalk the holy pontiff
    And it blew up in his fucking face
    Now the whole damn thing is something
    Someone’s got to do their best to e-ra-a-a-ase.

  212. 212
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Aimai: true to his word he’s focused like a laser beam on electing True Progressives. Oh wait. He hasn’t done jack white except aborted efforts to nominate people like the right wing Caranova to settle old scores.

    He’s as vindictive as Cuomo. Just lacks the same power.

  213. 213
    The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge says:

    @Robert Sneddon:

    The governors of the four “Commonwealth” states–Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Kentucky–are still to be addressed as “Your Excellency”.

  214. 214
    Just One More Canuck says:

    @lamh36: thank you for that

  215. 215
    Matt says:

    only people with a real stake in the issue of Sanders’ finances are the voters of Vermont and the media in that unwealthy underpopulated state

    That, and Clintonistas who just can’t stop punching left while sweet-talking neocons.

  216. 216
    Aimai says:

    @Matt: this is exactly the load of crap that bernie left on the floor for allllllllll the rest of us to clean up. Bernie doesnt represent “the left” and a general election that has forced republiczns to switch sides in order to vote for sane governance is not “coddling neocons.” This bullshit is why I, personally, will never forget or forgive Bernie or his grifting, huckster of a wife.

  217. 217
    Jack the Second says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Shouldn’t it be Madam President, unless we’re talking about the President of France?

  218. 218
    FlipYrWhig says:


    Or used his millions to take back the house?

    Does the vacation house count?

  219. 219
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    @different-church-lady: I always get a chuckle out of German things like Herr Professor Dr. Dr. (even for women as I was taught as a lad, but apparently that’s not the case now?), but note that simply having a US PhD and calling one’s self “Dr” in Germany could get one arrested there.

    It’s murky for spouses of Drs….

    (Insert Thompson Twins song here.)

  220. 220
    aimai says:

    @FlipYrWhig: Leave Bernie Aloooooooone!

    I’m just kind of gobsmacked at how the Bernie Rules are the Bernie Rules. Jane Sanders says that she and her siblings sold a house in Maine and she bought the house in Vermont with the proceeds. Well–that’s a pretty factual statement. So what house in Maine, how much was it worth, and was her share really worth 675,000 (or whatever) after the proceeds were split among her siblings? Its possible, if they were sitting on a huge swatch of Maine property. But its doubtful.

    When I think that the sincerity of the Clinton’s relationship with their god damned cat was questioned by the press for months I am just amazed, and amused, by the way Bernie and Jane get away with saying pretty obviously false stuff–the Taxes are an excellent example–and we get nothing but bleating from their fans about how maligned they are.

  221. 221
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @aimai: Yup. I don’t get where the intensity of devotion comes from either.

  222. 222
    Marc says:

    I don’t get why shitting on the supporters of a defeated primary candidate is a brilliant idea in the middle of a contested election. Sanders had to file federal financial disclosure forms for decades, he’s obviously not personally wealthy, and obsessing on it at this point is just a bunch of sore winners who can’t stand the idea that anyone dared to challenge their favored candidate.

    If defeating Trump is so damned important, act like it. Put this sort of crap aside and eyes on the prize.

  223. 223
    aimai says:

    @Marc: No one is shitting on anyone’s supporters. Bernie Sanders and Jane Sanders are not identical to their supporters–that you continue to confuse the two categories (political leader/supporter) just shows that you have an unhealthy fixation on Bernie as some kind of cult leader. He’s just a politician. He’s a politician who ran a certain kind of populist campaign, alleging criminality on the part of his opponent, and did so while pocketing massive amounts of campaign money in a fairly obvious way by funnelling money through his wife’s connections and through a shadow corporation. That’s just the fact of the running of his campaign. That his supporters will be the last to grasp this obvious fact is due to the kid gloves handling he received from the Democratic Party and the Press.

  224. 224
    aimai says:

    @Marc: Plus, I love this sudden uprush of fellow feeling and “we’re all in this together…beating Trump is the most important thing ever! No time to argue about who killed who!” Uh, yeah, we’ve been saying that since day one of Bernie’s attempts to handicap Hillary Clinton and his supporter’s continued circulation of Russia Today/right wing attacks made that kind of harder than it needed to be. Now that we are winning, handily, because of all the hard work our candidate has done you all want to let bygones be bygones? Life doesn’t work that way. When you shit all over people for months on end they don’t forget.

  225. 225
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    @Marc: Bernie’s Senate financial reports are not his federal tax returns.

    e.g. from 2015 (Warning: Politico):

    Bernie Sanders on Thursday reported less than $750,000 in assets — all of it in his wife’s name — according to his presidential personal financial disclosure form.

    The Vermont senator, mounting a liberal insurgent campaign against front-runner Hillary Clinton, also listed between $25,002-$65,000 in credit card debt on his Visa cards.

    According to the disclosure, Sanders and his wife Jane reported between $194,026-$741,030 in assets, a broad combination of investment funds.


    Sanders’ $174,000 salary as a member of the Senate was not listed on the form.

    Yeah, real transparency there. (roll-eyes)



  226. 226
    Marc says:

    You’re getting a series of former Sanders supporters, now Clinton supporters, saying that this sort of shitposting pisses them off. Normally after a primary, when the losing candidate has endorsed the winner, supporters of the winning candidate have some minimum level of grace, instead of bitterly dwelling on grudges. Because the only thing that this sort of thing can accomplish is to antagonize people on your own side.

  227. 227
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Marc: Good. I want people who supported Bernie Sanders to think twice before they get played for fools all over again. It’s healthy for “the left” to learn their lesson about this sort of shit.

  228. 228
    liberal says:


    …and a general election that has forced republiczns to switch sides in order to vote for sane governance is not “coddling neocons.”

    Given the despicable apologia you wrote for Hillary’s vote for the Iraq AUMF, your judgement here is pretty questionable.

    Myself, I wouldn’t quite call Hillary a neocon, but she’s definitely a hawk, and appears to be neocon-curious.

  229. 229
    glory b says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I didn’t look further so I don’t know if someone answered this already, but there is an exception to the Privacy Act for congressional investigations.

    That doesn’t mean they aren’t full of shit. I heard this morning that they may be gearing up for hearings into the “ransom” question with the payment to Iran and the release of the hostages.

  230. 230
    glory b says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Proper use of “literally” too!

  231. 231
    glory b says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: There’s a better word one can use, I think it’s “we.”

  232. 232
    liberal says:

    @glory b:

    I heard this morning that they may be gearing up for hearings into the “ransom” question with the payment to Iran and the release of the hostages.

    Of course, I think all this “ransom” stuff is just bullshit. Apparently, though, the admin did use the money as a tool to get Iran to hand our guys back more quickly. The ransom story is still BS, though, because it was Iran’s money we were holding, and we were going to give it back anyway. But given how low IQ the press is, and the average American is, the story might get a little messy.

  233. 233
    liberal says:

    @FlipYrWhig: LOL. Have you learned your lesson about Libya, you stupid sanctimonious prick?

  234. 234
    Marc says:

    @FlipYrWhig: This entire article could be summarized by a single sentence: Sanders is a hypocrite. There is zero evidence of wrongdoing, zero evidence of any problems, and a number of indications from public records that the guy is not rich. This is the sort of thing that Clinton supporters get really angry about when their candidate is a target. Which makes people – like you and Annie Laurie – hypocrites. Have we accomplished anything?

  235. 235
    Aimai says:

    @liberal: oh look–all the purity trolls are coming out to explain to us why bernie’s transgressions and mistakes should be forgotten but Clinton’s never will! yes, what is sauce for the goose is never sauce for the gander!

  236. 236
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:


    Wait – St. Bernard impugns the character and ethics of Hillary Clinton’s – and Democrats’ – lifetime of progressive accomplishments and hard work for months, brainwashing a generation of potential new voters into delusional thinking that Hillary Clinton and the Democrats are demonically hopelessly corrupt and cheated poor pure St. Bernard out of his chance at being the savior of white millennials while denying reality, whining about losing then making shit up about his electoral viability in order for his wife to continue grifting them, and all you can say is oooops, maybe he indulged in a little hypocrisy? Then you want us to get over ourselves?? Do I have that right?

  237. 237
    nutella says:

    What a sneaky little shit.

    Good work, primary voters, for not choosing him.

  238. 238
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @liberal: Are you here to give lessons at being a sanctimonious prick? Because it’s 150% of your identity.

  239. 239
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Marc: Yes, you were reminded that Bernie Sanders is a fraud who thrives on the adoration and excuse-making of suckers. Which is kind of a problem for the would-be left and the supposed principles they profess to hold. Which aren’t principles, really, as much as they are FUCK YOU YOU CANT MAKE ME running as a little gray cloud in their minds all day. It’s pathetic, it was obvious from the start, and it ought to embarrass the people who fell for it.

  240. 240
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: You left off the part where Clinton supporters WERE SO MEAN TO THEM AND IT HURTS AND ITS GOING TO TAKE SOME TIME. A ridiculous person who stumbled his way into being beloved by other ridiculous people, then NOT HAVING TO DO ANYTHING WITH IT OR FOR THEM at all. Quite a racket.

  241. 241
    Miss Bianca says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: Sounds about right. Shame, ain’t it?

    @FlipYrWhig: Did “liberal” ever gift us with the straight dope on how he would have TOTES HANDLED the Libya situation? Because he’s such a foreign policy maven, right? Seem to recall we got crickets on that one.

  242. 242
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Miss Bianca: He would have happily stood aside while Libyans killed one another because that’s obviously the course of actions all true progressives would endorse, or something. The important part is that he disagreed with me and aimai 5 years ago, and the only prescription is these sporadic snippy little potshots.

  243. 243
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:


    That the passive-aggressive thing they did all primary season about their hurt fee fees after repeatedly, daily, confronting them with electoral math and their candidate’s obvious flaws and hypocrisy, is still a thing they’re doing now that it’s all been revealed to be the hypocritical bullshit we told them it all was, is all we need to know about the “left”, especially since there was, and still is, a real fascist at the gate. The grifting hypocritical codger apparently can’t be arsed to fight in any meaningful way since the girl beat him and the adulation of the credulous dumbasses stopped, and now he’s got a new lake house paid for in cash, so fuck all.

  244. 244
    Miss Bianca says:

    @FlipYrWhig: Methinks the word “maroon” might just about begin to cover it.

  245. 245


    “When you shit all over people for months on end they don’t forget.”

    So true. And HRC, her deluded supporters, and her Corporatist media backers, will be paid back in spades.

    Remember when Republicans told us to “move on” in 2000, and we didn’t? Now, 16 years later, you and your ilk have become just as bad as those fuckwits. You think like them, you act like them, you’ve BECOME them. You hide your head in the sand or try to minimize your candidate’s long track record of misdeeds. You tolerate impropriety, lying and financial malfeasance just like a Republican. You try to disenfranchise voters like a Republican. You are, essentially a one of “those” people — the status quo pseudoliberals who might as well be Republican.

    For all intents and purposes, you and your ilk are holding us back from progress. Do you think that we’re going to forget that?

    You should really re-read your own comments about fixating on a candidate — because reading your posts and those of the other Clintonistas on this site is telling. You’re no better than the Trumpnuts. You should just admit your own biases, or stop wasting bandwidth.

  246. 246
    GHayduke says:

    Everybody loves a sore winner

  247. 247
    goblue72 says:

    Still a bitter old Hillary-bot I see? Boring, boring, boring.

  248. 248
    goblue72 says:

    @aimai: You’re a bitter hasbeen. Your droliing fanboi/fangirl nonsense is so transparent as to render you a fool.

    This place has gone completely down the toilet last few years. Coincides with John semi-retiring from his own blog except to occasionally post pics of his pets and handing to the keys over to the bitter suburban Boomer brigade.

  249. 249
    Gex says:

    He’s just a kid. Like Lochte. Rules are for others.

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