I am so sick and tired of dealing with everyone’s fucking feelings and this bullshit about being cheated. Not only was Bernie not cheated out of the nomination, it’s all so besides the fucking point. Despite the sporadic few states in which Russia’s favorite fauxgressive Jill Stein and the glibertarian shitshow are on the ballot, this election is a binary construct if you intend to vote.
You vote for Trump or you vote for Clinton. That’s it. Those are the choices. And if you choose not to vote for either or vote for Trump, you are responsible if Trump wins. It’s not on Hillary- she’s making her pitch. The voters decide, and to quote some lyrics, “if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.”
I don’t understand why people don’t get that elections aren’t about your feels. You look at which candidate is more likely to do things you like and which one is more likely to create World War III, and depending on your level of psychoticism, you choose accordingly. Your feels may impact how involved you get or if you donate or if you are enthusiastic about voting or if you go out and work to elect a candidate, but your feels shouldn’t be shaping your decision.
I was super excited about Obama in 2008. In 2016, I looked at both of the Dems, and said I would support either. I later leaned Clinton because I decided that while I liked what Bernie was shouting about, shouting about shit doesn’t get things done. But either way, I was going to support the Democrat, because the Republican ticket was, no matter who they nominated, would be a Death Star of Suck and we are all Alderaanians now.
TL;DR: Vote for the Democrat or you are to blame for the disaster. Also, FUCK YOU.
Dan
I’m an agnostic by I’m going to whisper this post to myself kneeling before I get into bed.
Keith P.
For a second, I though Cole had finally gone through the site rename he’s been toying with forever (“What Really Grinds My Gears” is already taken)
Addendum: I agree with Cole’s sentiment 100% here.
Tim C.
God…I need a cigarette after reading that.
dedc79
And if your beef is that Clinton/Kaine isn’t a progressive enough ticket, you vote for them in November and then you show up and vote for progressives in all of the local/state/federal primaries and general elections between then and 2020. When 2020 comes around, you support the most progressive candidate you can find in the primary, and if that person wins, hooray for you. And if that person loses, wash, rinse and repeat.
KLB
Lurker delurking to say yes, very much this.
And to add props for spreading Malcolm Tucker around.
danbodger
DWS is out. The Sandernistas won.
Suck your own feels up and deal, olds.
negative 1
Then why have a blog with comments? It’s possible to criticize this stuff and still vote for Clinton. I do, and I am.
Here, I’ll start the pledge — I, negative 1, am not only voting for Clinton but I’ve raised money for her. Since this is a liberal site and we probably all are, I also don’t like Kaine (would’ve preferred Perez) and never liked DWS.
Why is that bad? It’s an honest question, not a rhetorical one.
Keith P.
@dedc79: I agree with this 100%, too. Weird thread!
John Cole
@danbodger: You complete tool. We all wanted DWS out.
bystander
Never missed a presidential election and won’t start this year. Clinton is a terrific candidate. The media have done the RNC’s bidding and smeared her at every opportunity.
I did miss voting against Giuliani and Governor Munster Patookie, and I still feel guilty.
Goblue72
Yelling at voters that they are stupid if they don’t vote your way is a sure fire strategy to success. It works all the time.
If you actually care about winning, you’ll bite your tongue and do whatever it takes.
But please proceed Juicers.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
The Revolution!, then, was even less than I thought, and I didn’t think it was much.
mike in dc
I will phone bank for Clinton, and probably send some money when/if I can. If they need another lawyer for the election protection stuff, sign me up.
John Cole
@Goblue72:
It’s almost as if you either didn’t read or comprehend this post.
If anyone votes Trump or chooses not to vote because I “yelled” at them, they are a fucking idiot and probably should not be allowed to own a gun, drive a car, have pets, or access the internet. Yourself included.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Goblue72: Hiya Dwight! How’s the revolutionary cubicle today?
Kenneth Kohl
My brother-in-law passed away this morning; so, double up on the fuckity-fucks.
But, yes, Mr. Cole, your point is spot on. Any vote not for Clinton is a vote for Trump. I don’t want to hear any excuses, … because you have none!
gbear
@danbodger:
DWS is out of the DNC, but she’s still going to work with Hillary.
Keith P.
@John Cole: This Clinton supporter wanted DWS out as well. Van Jones said it well this weekend – when you become the distraction, it is your responsibility to fall on your sword for the greater cause. She should have left months ago when she first became a distraction, but now it’s metastasized. But she needs to go quickly and quietly to let the news cycle move on to something else (Russia). Any loyalty she deserves should come *after* the election.
inventor
WTF did the mean ol’ DNCers do besides talk bad about Bernie amongst themselves? So-the-fuck what? They didn’t DO anything. My “feeling” is that had Sanders been a Democrat for decades like Clinton, he would have had more support with the DNC.
Is it really all about hurt fee-fees?
hovercraft
@danbodger:
Exactly, you fuck wads, you won. Take the victory and live to fight another day. You won this scalp, but we won the war, nothing that’s happening now will change the outcome. We have tried to be gracious to your hurt fee-fees, but you can’t take yes for a fucking answer. You’ve got your consolation prize now move on. Right now these morons are booing Rosario Dawson, as fervent a Berner as there is. They booed Nancy Pelosi, Mike Honda and Barbara Fucking Lee. You are a bunch of morons, you cannot change the party if the people who make up the party hate you.
Mnemosyne
I will repeat my plea to Bernie supporters from the thread below:
I realize that Russian-financed Wikileaks and their Russian government hacker Guccifer2 have served you up the tastiest, most tempting treat you’ve ever seen, but for the love of God, don’t take the bait. Don’t turn the DNC into a shitshow to rival the RNC. Pretty please, with sugar on top, even. Because that’s what they’re hoping to bait you into doing.
Motivated Seller
I am so excited to support the establishment.
Emma
@negative 1: Nothing wrong with it. It sounds exactly like what John is saying.
socraticsilence
@gbear:
She’s supposedly still going to take the stage at the convention. At this point I just don’t get it– its clear she’s a liability, she was heckled today at a pre-convention speech and yet she’s going to be allowed to take the stage- why? What possible reason is there to allow DWS to be a liability?
Also- who on Earth thought it was smart to name her honorary co-chair of Hillary’s campaign within hours of her resignation from the DNC?
dr. bloor
@danbodger: Pretty sure that’s not why everyone kept sending their $27 in to Bernie.
mike in dc
@hovercraft:
How can you boo Rosario Dawson? I realize Daredevil isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but…
cokane
@Goblue72: this is the kind of thinking that results when anger is just overly indulged in our national political media. like, if you give a shit about making progress on policy and legislation, you know what you need to do. and if you think mainstream Dems like Obama or Clinton havent done enough for you, I frankly think you’re a spoiled brat. The more wealthy, healthy, safe and just world we have today was never guaranteed
rikyrah
LOL Cole.
LOL
BR
As I’ve said many times, Bernie lost me. I was originally planning on supporting him, but the lack of discipline in his campaign combined with proposals that didn’t add up (and demonizing anyone who disagreed with him, even if they were actually to the left of him, like Barbara Lee) really didn’t wear well. Everything that has happened since the end of the primary has confirmed my impression of his campaign and support base rather than proving me wrong. That said, I’ll be happy to have everyone stop the intra-party fight because we’re dealing with a once in a lifetime election and it’s all hands on deck.
sherparick
@negative 1: There is a time for criticism, and there is a time for getting on board last train for Hogwarts. We have an imperfect candidate and imperfect ticket representing an imperfect party to which both Robert Rubin and Bernie Sanders (apparently he is now finally a Democrat) belong. This morning I could understand booing Debbie Wasserman Schultz , but I don’t understand booing Nancy Pelosi or Barbara Boxer. Not with all the water they have carried for the progressive cause. I think the Bernie Bros and Sisters have figured out that the MSM media, with their love of the Democrats in disarray meme, will give them a lot of attention the more they say “No Hilary.” Unfortunately, at a certain point they are in fact saying “Yes Trump” if they help make this convention a disaster. If you want check someone making the same point with less profanity then J.C., chick out Steve M at http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/
Wiesman
I’ve been trying to get this through to people for some time, but I’ve been seeing a lot of #neverhillary idiots in my FB feed. I mean… we live in a country of 320 million people, each of them unique, each of them with their own set of issues and priorities. If you take the major issues, and I’ll name just 8 (climate, taxation, health care, foreign policy, policing, LGBTQ rights, education, military funding) and assume that each of those polices have, I dunno, let’s say 3 different positions, that yields 3^8 = 6,561 different possibilities for how someone would score on an issue report card. But wait, it’s not just how they score, because we whiny liberals always want OUR OWN PERSONAL issue to be prioritized at the top. So with (again just) 8 issues, we also have 8-factorial = 40,320 different ways to arrange those priorities. So if you take all the different report cards and all the different priorities for those issues you get 264 million different possibilities, or just over 2 for every registered voter.
The idea that anyone should expect that any candidate would line up with their own personal issue preferences and their own personal issue priorities in a complex democracy as our own is just stupid and ridiculous and childish. Democracy is about compromises and if that means getting Tim Kaine who wants to keep abortion LEGAL and SAFE but also has a sad about it, then yes, that is better than the guy who thinks that all abortion should be illegal all the time and yes, we need to punish women who seek abortions. Grow the fuck up.
gogol's wife
I’m fired up and ready to go for Clinton/Kaine. Looking forward to the great speeches over the next few days.
Thank you, John! Love you!
Hildebrand
@Goblue72: Will you be making sure to tell the damn BernieBros out in California to do the same – they bloody well booed Nancy Pelosi today. How does that help?
bemused
Excellent rant. So tired of people who keep hitting themselves in the face instead of moving on.
EBT
Preach it brother Cole. Still trying to get a lover back in TN to realize voting for Stein isn’t a good idea. But she isn’t listening.
Emma
@Goblue72:
Would you define “whatever it takes”? Not argue with Bernistas? Get out of the way while they’re trying to change the Democratic party in spite of the fact that the rank and file is perfectly fine, more or less, with how primaries are done? Give Bernie whatever he wants?
different-church-lady
@danbodger:
Is there a cash prize that goes with that, or do they just get the home edition of President Sanders?
WestTexan70
@Goblue72: Sometimes you gotta yell to get the point through some thick skulls. I have lived in Texas all my life — you don’t want a national government like my state government. Vote for Hillary or reap the consequences. It is that simple.
Big Picture Pathologist
@dedc79:
This. It’s always been this.
Tom65
Here’s a novel idea: it’s possible to be pissed at the bullshit that went down at the DNC and still recognize that Trump is the Anti-Christ. It’s not that hard, really.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Probably should have waited, but as unpopular as DWS is in the blogosphere and among progressives (rightly so, IMO), I think she’s pretty popular and prominent in Florida.
also, I’d be curious to know how many “honorary co-chairs” there are.
hovercraft
@negative 1:
As you are at this very moment commenting and being critical and engaging you have the right to speak out, but we also have the right to engage and criticize you. As you said this is a blog, we engage sometimes we agree and sometimes we don’t, if someone pisses someone else off they say so. If you don’t want to be criticized then don’t comment. But when we do put ourselves out there there may be blowback. Deal with it.
Felonius Monk
AMEN!
RK
Why hasn’t the Clinton campaign escorted DWS out of Philly by now?
Emma
@Kenneth Kohl: My condolences to your family. This year has sucked majorly when it comes to family.
different-church-lady
@Goblue72:
Well, you should know, I suppose…
Kropadope
Can’t we allow for the possibility that this election will produce the fall of the Republican Party and the rise of the Libertarians as the second party of our two party system?
I’ll vote for Hillary as long as her principle opponent is Donald Trump; but if any candidate passes him, I’m voting for Rocky Anderson.
cokane
@Wiesman: not just stupid and childish — but deep narcissism. ppl need to recognize that the office that represents the whole country WILL NEVER align 100% with your beliefs, and to think so it is anti-democratic thinking.
infovore
Except for those of us who aren’t US citizens, who therefore cannot vote or contribute (not all of us are state-backed meddlers).
hovercraft
@Kenneth Kohl:
I’m sorry for your loss.
NR
So the question we should be asking at this point is, is Hillary Clinton a plant to get Donald Trump elected?
Goblue72
@John Cole: Your FP regularly features thin skinned shit stirrers like AL and BC who can’t leave well enough alone long past the point the primary battles were over. Yet you claim to want your candidate to win. There’s no cake and eat it to here.
You either suck up and deal. Or you get to have your rants and egos let their freak flags fly. You need a mirror. I don’t think you realize how much this kind of crap turns off voters. Voters who, by the way, are looking for any excuse to either not vote Clinton or just not vote. You can tell yourselves whatever stories let you sleep at night, but Clinton is a rather unpopular candidate amongst the general electorate and a polarizing one – the unfair reasons for this really don’t matter at this point.
538 has Trump wining today, with Ohio and PA now red. Wanna scream at potential voters some more that if they are thinking of voting Stein they are morons?
Mnemosyne
@mike in dc:
In case you haven’t heard of them, Vote Riders may be looking for lawyer help if you don’t have someplace locally in mind. I’m sure MD and VA will need some help to circumvent Republican fuckery.
hovercraft
@gbear:
It’s her campaign, DWS fell on her sword for shit she didn’t personally do. She’s been publicly humiliated and Hillary is throwing her a bone, get over it.
different-church-lady
@Mnemosyne:
Too late. Assholes gotta asshole, and they’re gonna asshole their asses off. They don’t care what damage it does. The came to this wanting to destroy the Democratic Party and Bernie’s concession isn’t going to stop them.
Mnemosyne
@Goblue72:
If the primary battles are over, why are Bernie’s delegates on my teevee booing Nancy Pelosi and Rosario Dawson?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@different-church-lady: Dwight is actually a highly successful grassroots activist and organizer, not just some bitter middle-manager who brings his frustrations about life to a keyboard revolution. He has said so and I believe him. I’m just so darned sorry modesty forbids him from telling us all about his triumphs.
The Other Bob
Why in the world would Democrats agree to change the nominating process to make it easier for crazy people to show up and get the nomination? Sanders proposes to allow independents to vote in the primary and do away with super delegates. In light of Sanders, a self-described socialist, coming in second and Trump winning the Republican nomination, I think the last thing we want is to loosen party power.
grrljock
Yes! And I notice that the media are trying their hardest to pound the “Dems in disarray!” narrative, with hand wringing headlines over the ouster of DWS (I always transpose the initials to be those of Discount Shoe Warehouse) and whatever quoteany useful idiotic Bernie “supporter” can give them.
So no, I ain’t playing that game. I will go to the Clinton HQ this week to volunteer my services!
Hildebrand
@Kropadope: @Kropadope: I am going to guess that there is a not insignificant number of libertarians who will not vote because the Johnson/Weld ticket doesn’t uphold true libertarian ideals. In my very unscientific poll of libertarians I know – 15 participated – 10 said they will not be voting again this year, as none of the candidates are actual libertarians. Three of them have never voted because ‘the American system’ has never embraced the concept of liberty.
Emma
@Goblue72: Jeeesus. You really think this blog has convinced people to vote for Trump because front-pagers hurt their fee-fees? Good lord, John, if I’d known you were that powerful I would have curtsied more.
I asked before and I ask again, exactly when does the extortion stop? What does the Democratic party have to do to satisfy the Bernistas?
manyakitty
Oh John, if only you lived closer to Akron, I’d bake you treats and make fresh ice cream for every one of these wonderful posts…
dmsilev
@Mnemosyne: Wait, now Rosario Dawson isn’t pure enough for them?
Are they going to boo Sanders himself as well? Probably.
NR
@Emma:
It’s not about satisfying the Bernistas, it’s about nominating a candidate who can win the fucking election.
Hillary Clinton is not that candidate.
Emma
@Emma: Because she’s a freaking representative of the State of Florida in the freaking Democratic convention.
Rick Taylor
Interesting post via Tom Sullivan on Digby’s on why, while me might not like it, voters do make decisions based on feelings, and politicians have to take that into account.
cokane
@Goblue72: who forced you to read those posts? You are bitching that someone on the internet wrote something you didn’t like
FlipYrWhig
@Goblue72: Why wouldn’t I want to scream at a bunch of idiots who are intent on being idiots for some sort of strange symbolic reason? I mean, that’s a pretty good reason to scream, I’d say.
dmsilev
@Emma:
Nominate Bernie, duh. And not real Bernie, fantasy Bernie who will be carried to the podium by flocks of sparrows and who will through the strength of his mighty will bring about Progressivetopia by lunchtime tomorrow.
tinare
@Kenneth Kohl: So sorry to hear that. My sympathies.
It sucks when your candidate doesn’t win. I’m a lifelong Democrat, so I know that feeling well. The first election I could vote in was Reagan vs. Carter. It took until 1992 before a Presidential candidate I voted for won. But, seriously, it’s over. Put on your big boy pants and work to get the Dem. elected or dog help us all. I don’t particularly want to live in the Fascist States of America, thank you very much.
Emma
@NR: You’re so sure, but I’ve seen your prediction record.
Soprano2
I feel this way, too. I keep asking Bernie supporters which person they believe they can work with more on the issues they care about – Trump or Hillary. Unless they’re childishly stomping their feet and holding their breath because their guy lost, they acknowledge that Clinton would be much better for them than Trump. That’s just the truth, dammit!!! I don’t think Bernie supporters want the country to burn down in the same way Trump’s supporters do. If you want a person who isn’t interested in being president, who only wants to be a figurehead and is evidently in the pocket of the Russian government, then by all means vote for Trump. If you don’t want that, then vote for Clinton.
JMG
I have made this challenge on another site’s comment thread, so I’ll repeat it. Sanders dead-enders, come back here in late November and tell me what you did to successfully elect a real “progressive” candidate of your liking to any office in the land. State rep, Registrar of Deeds, school board, you name it. If you do, I will congratulate you with all my heart. If you don’t I will continue my current assumption that you’re just Internet jagoffs.
Betty Cracker
@Goblue72: Middle-aged barristers who advocate violence and murder (to be undertaken by others, naturally) from their comfy chair probably shouldn’t accuse others of shit-stirring. It’s Donald Trump-level projection.
Omnes Omnibus
@Goblue72: 538 does not have Trump winning right now. Unless 46.5 is greater than 53.5.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
who are the crazy people who think Bernie!’s a narcissistic old crank?
NR
@Emma: I have no idea what you’re talking about, but whatever.
Doesn’t change the fact that Hillary Clinton is an incredibly weak candidate who may very well lose to Donald Trump.
singfoom
Cosign 100% John. You vote for Clinton or you’re effectively voting for Drumpf. Not interested in any discussion about anyone “deserving” your vote. Not voting is a choice too. We all know the consequences. Last time it was a war in Iraq.
hamletta
@socraticsilence:
Anybody who isn’t a moron. Did you not see the word “honorary”? It’s a face-saver for DWS to keep the peace.
TaMara (HFG)
Has to be one of my favorite things Cole’s written ever.
Also, this entire post could be titled, “well, duh” except some people need to hear it over and over until November.
Gian
@danbodger:
It’s horrible, she’s done such a bang up job getting a majority in the House and Senate, and has seriously kicked ass in leading takeovers of the state legislatures and governor’s offices too. He skill at building a majority is rivaled only by FDR
different-church-lady
@NR: Cannot win or might very well lose? Make up your damn mind.
dmsilev
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Oh, for fucks sake.
louc
It’s been interesting to watch how propaganda works. I saw the headlines saying DNC attacked Sanders’ Jewish heritage. I was like, whaaaaa? Then I read the emails and find out it’s some lower level douchebag who suggested looking into whether Sanders is an atheist and playing that up in WVa and Ky. It doesn’t go anywhere. It got shot down.
But you see Bernie Bros using “Jewish heritage” in comments and putting the blame on DWS (whom I also loathe and was happy to see fired). It distorts what happened.
Yes, DNC is not supposed to play favorites, but a lot of the Bernie bashing emails came after he attacked the DNC and after it was clear Clinton was over the top on *regular* delegates and was going to win.
Tom Q
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Also, according to reports, DWS had to be dragged kicking and screaming into stepping down — she apparently has no concept of how divisive/unpopular she is. So, this meaningless appointment may be the only thing that got her to step out of the limelight.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Sanders campaign manager Tad Devine worked for Putin’s puppet Viktor Yanukovich — you know, the guy who was run out of town for corruption and took refuge with his buddy Vlad. Are you sure you really want people looking to see who has ties to Putin and who doesn’t?
hovercraft
Listening to Bernie speaking to his delegates, he’s giving his standard stump speech, touching all the usual erogenous zones, millionaires ……, corporate media, super pacs, we are the future, trashing the DNC and DWS, TPP, single payer. He just tried to tell them they need to elect Hillary and they are booing him, they are still rumbling as he goes on. Still yelling never Hillary, now they are chanting we want Bernie.
Mister Forkbeard
Cole’s post almost perfectly encapsulates my feelings on this. This really, really bugs me. I can’t understand people like the Bernie Delegate Network trying to hold rallies to remove Tim Kaine or the various pity parties on facebook and social media about unfairness.
It sucks that the DNC didn’t like Bernie. That’s what happens when the candidate spends a bunch of time yelling about how the DNC has rigged the process for his opponent. And despite the furor over the e-mails, there’s no evidence that the DNC actually took any actions that negatively affected Bernie.
For the people currently throwing a tantrum…. they are helping Trump and republicans. Buying into this shit furthers a false narrative that Hillary is corrupt, cheated and is dishonest. And if she loses… then Trump wins, and we ALL lose. I literally don’t understand the upside here other than getting your Hillary-hate on.
Betty Cracker
@NR: My offer still stands. Put up or shaddup, Stillwell Angel!
Keith G
It’s all good!!
Remember, we now live in a social media driven noise
windfuck tunnel. Every step along this path gets over-analysed to the point of obsession.Christ, it’s like evaluating a football game one play at a time. Sometime the offense make a good gain and you’re sure that the heavens are smiling. Once in a while a safety blitz turns your QB into goo and you know the apocalypse has arrived. Step away from the Twitters unless you have faith in the big picture.
Relax
Are the the fundamentals in place?
Check.
Do we have a team on the field that seems to be able to use the advantages that have developed?
Check.
Ignore the noise. That alone will kill the noise makers. Trust that the media will indeed take the lazy route and substitute bullshit for intelligence.
And know by Wednesday of next week, none of this will matter**
**Except for a few key speeches – and we know that they will be great.
Loviatar
We have credible evidence that the Russians are actively helping Donald Trump, one of only two who can be President of the United States. A nation that is hostile to our interests is buying the American presidency and the Republicans don’t care because they have been promised a lower marginal tax rate. We’re so fucked as a Country.
– Trump & Putin. Yes, It’s Really a Thing
– How Putin Weaponized Wikileaks to Influence the Election of an American President
2016 Republican party slogan: Party before Country
different-church-lady
@hovercraft: Lost control of his own fuckin’ Orc army, has he? Gee, nobody could see that coming…
Keith G
It’s all good!!
Remember, we now live in a social media driven noise
windfuck tunnel. Every step along this path gets over-analysed to the point of obsession.Christ, it’s like evaluating a football game one play at a time. Sometime the offense make a good gain and you’re sure that the heavens are smiling. Once in a while a safety blitz turns your QB into goo and you know the apocalypse has arrived. Step away from the Twitters unless you have faith in the big picture.
Relax
Are the the fundamentals in place?
Check.
Do we have a team on the field that seems to be able to use the advantages that have developed?
Check.
Ignore the noise. That alone will kill the noise makers. Trust that the media will indeed take the lazy route and substitute bullshit for intelligence.
And know by Wednesday of next week, none of this will matter**
**Except for a few key speeches – and we know that they will be great.
NR
@Mnemosyne: I didn’t say anything about Putin. I was just wondering out loud, is Hillary Clinton a plant to get Donald Trump elected? It’s hard to imagine what she might be doing differently if the answer to that question is no.
Robin G.
I’m on Facebook arguing with people who are calling superdelegates cancers on democracy and simultaneously demanding that they intervene on Bernie’s behalf.
The cognitive dissonance is mind blowing.
Mnemosyne
@socraticsilence:
She’s not the honorary co-chair of the campaign. She’s the honorary co-chair of the campaign committee on Hillary’s 50-state strategy.
You need to learn how to spell “sinecure.”
dmsilev
@hovercraft: Well done, Bernie. You built this.
Keith G
@Betty Cracker: Betty, I have a comment that was marked as spam and gobbled. Can you free it?
different-church-lady
@NR: Oh so you’re just JAQing off?
PaulWartenberg2016
@dedc79:
This. Arguably one of DNC’s failings the last 4-6 years was recruiting candidates at the congressional / state level, constantly putting up centrists where progressive candidates could have fared better.
This is where movements build up: local candidates. We need the Democrats even if Hillary wins this November to put more progressives/liberal-leaning candidates on the ballots across the board in 2018 and again in 2020. the demographic and ideology shift to the Left is here, and they need to answer it.
Kropadope
@FlipYrWhig:
Self awareness fail.
I would take these sorts of criticisms more seriously if (a) people constantly slagging on obnoxious Bernie bros for months on end would be cognizant of and try to temper their own obnoxious behavior and (b) if people were more accepting of debate in principle. It’s gotten to the point here where you can’t debate the particulars of legislation being debated in Congress because if you aren’t all “Ra! Ra! Democrats!” at all times, regardless on how you plan on actually voting, you’re the enemy. The other which must be vanquished.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@hovercraft: do you know the context of this?
Keith G
@Kenneth Kohl: Sorry, dude.
Robin G.
@hovercraft: It’s almost like claiming Hillary’s nomination is illegitimate has discouraged people from supporting her. No one could have foreseen, etc etc.
Tom65
@Betty Cracker:
Are you saying barristers or baristas? Auto-correct can be funny sometimes.
Joe
Old-school Sandernista here. I endorse everything Cole said, because this is really important.
https://twitter.com/realJeffGentry/status/756497355394822144
lethargytartare
@Goblue72:
There are no persuadable voters reading this blog. it’s 90% democrats, 6 republican trolls and a pack of yelping leftier-than-thou idiots like you who pop up every 2 years like a sad version of whackamole. No one is going to soothe your wailing soul here, buddy. get on board or get out of the way.
Hungry Joe
Hillary Clinton isn’t nearly as progressive/lefty as I am. I disagree, to a varying extent, with a number of her policies, as well as a number of her decisions in the past. She is also smart, experienced, competent, and sane.
Donald Trump is a narcissistic loon, a spoiled, privileged, latter-day fascist, a huckster, a con man, and a racist.
Not voting for Hillary, protesting at the convention, booing speakers … all this is madness. Self-indulgent madness. We’re facing a firestorm, and these purity arsonists are playing with blowtorches.
NR
@Robin G.: Right. Hillary’s problems are all Bernie Sanders’s fault.
karen marie
If I were 20 years younger, I would move to WV to have John Cole’s babies.
JMG
If Sanders doesn’t give the loudest endorsement of Clinton tonight, his career will be over, which he at least knows. As for his supporters, I don’t know if it’s just inexperience or flat stupidity, but they’d best realize that if Clinton loses, they lose even bigger. No people of color will ever support the “progressive” candidate in the Democratic primaries again. No women over 40 will, either. They will be permanently marginalized within the party as a hated group of wreckers. Outside the party, they will be just another group of Internet loudmouths, but not as numerous as libertarians.
Citizen Alan
@Goblue72:
“Do whatever it takes.” Okay, what will it take to get you to support Hillary Clinton. Because my impression of some Bernie supporters is that there is literally nothing she can do to earn your support except possibly allow herself to be hurled onto a bonfire on the first night of the convention to pave the way for Bernie’s ascension. Sort of like how nothing Obama could have done would have pleased Republicans except resignation or death.
tinare
@Hungry Joe: Awesome sauce.
Trinity
THIS.
Please John. Never, ever change.
Betty Cracker
@Tom65: Well, he claims to be an attorney with a degree from a prestige school when he’s not pretending to be a secret ninja assassin for the pipple, so the former.
Tom65
@Betty Cracker:
Ah, ok. Thought you might be going for the middle-aged hipster slam.
Mai.naem.mobile
Tell me again why Cole is not a favored slot speakwr at the DNC? I am kinda serious about this.
Reggie Mantle
If Her Supreme Highness doesn’t win, she’ll have no one to blame but herself and her campaign.
Not that any one of those, or anyone here, will take responsibility for anything. It’s the Bernie Bros. Or the Russians. Or something. But never, ever Hillary shooting herself in the foot.
NR
@Citizen Alan: And what if “whatever it takes” is nominating someone besides Hillary Clinton? Because every day it looks like that’s more and more likely.
different-church-lady
@Mai.naem.mobile: Had to cut him to room for Bernie.
[ducks]
The Thin Black Duke
@socraticsilence: Nobody cares, sorry.
Emma
@different-church-lady: Dr. Frankenstein? Dr. Victor Frankenstein? You have a monster on line two!
dmsilev
So, apparently this just happened:
Real profile in courage there, Senator.
D58826
@Loviatar: Enough about Bernie/DWS/e-mails. This is the ISSUE:
If SCOTUS wasn’t enough to stop the squabbling do we want a man in the WH whose financial empire is in hock to Putin’s cronies.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/putin-trump-national-security-briefings_us_57963cd6e4b02d5d5ed2476b
jl
” Also, FUCK YOU. ”
I was feeling cheated by this John Cole post, until the sign off.
And, thnx for recent Tunchpix.festival.
hovercraft
@dmsilev:
Yeah after his pro Hillary remarks, he no longer had the room, they grumbled the rest of the way through.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@danbodger: Idiot. The only thing DWS leaving accomplished was encouraging the dead-enders into making more demands.
This is why you don’t negotiate with hostage-takers.
Has it occurred to all the people who are so very concerned about the rest of us making nice with the dead-enders that there are only two choices when dealing with them? We can push back against their trollery or we can ignore them. Courting them is a fucking waste of time.
Wiesman
@cokane: Yes, thank you, narcissism is the idea I was trying to get at. It’s incredibly narcissistic to demand that any candidate should match up with your own exact preferences, obviously, but it is also narcissistic to withhold your participation in the process just because none of the viable options (and there are only two) meet some threshold for your support. Not choosing is a choice.
lethargytartare
@hamletta:
it also avoids alienating her friends, colleagues, and constituents back home in a fvcking swing state, but then we shouldn’t be surprised that a bunch of neophytes who think finishing a distant second means you get to run the party don’t understand the simple basics of politics,
Epicurus
This is all true, imho. The addition of a clip from “In The Loop” was icing on the cake. Well done, Mr. Cole, well done!
Kropadope
@Hildebrand: We’ll see. These things take time. He seems to be polling 8-12% right now. He needs 15% to secure a spot in the debates. 30% is where we may see him passing Trump. And who cares what some shit-kicking Libertarian die-hards, some of whom you say never vote, say on the matter? The fact is, the Libertarians have put forth a far more credentialed and credible ticket than the Republicans this year.
eemom
@NR:
You are a fucking idiot. Jussayinzall.
Great post Cole.
Davis X. Machina
@Mnemosyne:
Are those the same ones who were mobbing the “Hillary for Prison” truck sponsored by Infowars?
Reggie Mantle
Bernie Sanders agrees: “We have got to elect Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine”. That was today. But don’t let that stop the hatin’. Y’all never have been able to take yes for an answer.
Now if Hillary can just not blow it with stupid shit like the DWS hire.
Miss Bianca
@John Cole: I didn’t. Because it seems to me that the animus against DWS – the blaming for crappy Dem turnout in mid-term elections, etc – seems to be levelled – or can be levelled – against *every single DNC chairman ever*. It’s a crappy, thankless position, in part because of all the Monday-morning QB-ing from people who don’t know their asses from their useful bits.
cmorenc
@danbodger:
She’s not “out” soon enough to avoid provoking an irresistible clusterfuck of “dems in warring disarray” video clips which the media will gleefully, repeatedly show throughout the convention, unless she foregoes her plans to still wield the opening and closing gavel for the convention, and try to speak to the delegates.
PaulWartenberg2016
@NR:
Dear NR: Your savior Bernie is not the pure shining paladin you hope him to be.
Whatever polling advantages he had over Trump, Hillary had the same numbers.
We’d likely be seeing the same polling woes now that we have with Trump going up (DEAR SWEET FUCKING GOD WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU AMERICA) and Bernie would be looking as weak as Hillary right now.
And in the general election, Bernie would have been hammered as a commie tree-hugging senile fart, and they’d be elevating his wife’s college scandals to Watergate levels of corruption ZOMG. You think the GOP is vicious towards Hillary, they will be vicious towards ANYONE.
apocalipstick
@dmsilev:
Yes, many of them will. I have observed (anecdotally) a movement toward the “Bernie lied to us! He was just looking for a way to sell out to Hitlery!” camp.
hovercraft
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’ll go back and look, but msnbc cut away from him to the breaking news that DWS may not gavel in the proceedings after all, duh.
Edit I missed a bit
different-church-lady
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
Not true: it also accomplished the detonation of the “CONVENTION IN DISARRAY” narrative that had been primed and ready to go as it was.
Citizen Alan
@cokane:
This. I watched the Green Party debate and was amused at first, but I was soon startled and disturbed when I realized the extent to which the three candidates (include Stein) were authoritarians who genuinely think that a Green President can bring about a socialist utopia “within the first 100 days” via presidential decrees. It didn’t help matters when I googled the RT Network and realized that both the Green and Libertarian debates were sponsored by the Russian state media.
The Thin Black Duke
@Kropadope: Good for you. Here’s a cookie.
Enhanced Voting Techinques
@danbodger:
So the first against the wall were bland, vaguely progressive party officals no one heard about before last week. So noted.
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
@NR: Please do layout how this will all work if Hillary doesn’t get the nomination tomorrow, or whenever the vote is taken. Tell us specifically how Democrats across the country that are on the ballot and running get elected after this kind of debacle.
NR
@PaulWartenberg2016:
Pure speculation on your part, with nothing to back it up. Meanwhile, we have real polling data showing Hillary losing to Trump.
But whatever. I’m not even holding out for Sanders anymore. I’d take anyone else. Even Biden. If anyone else were running against Trump, they’d be beating him by double digits. But for some unfathomable reason, the Democratic party establishment decided to go all-in for a candidate who 56% of the country hates and two-thirds thinks is dishonest.
Well, they’re going to reap what they’ve sowed.
Reggie Mantle
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
Because political opponents in your America are just like terrorists.
Sounds like something from last week’s convention.
I mean, seriously. “Hostage takers”? And you say it’s the Sanders people who should “Grow up”?
dmsilev
@Reggie Mantle: Sanders agrees, but apparently there’s a very vocal rump of his alleged supporters who don’t. Those are the people we’re yelling at.
It doesn’t help that Sanders apparently didn’t have a plan to deal with the more extreme members of his base, though I guess we should withhold final judgment on that until after his speech tonight.
RK
We all knew the DNC had its thumb on the scale from the debate schedule, so anyone surprised by these emails wasn’t looking. And Bernie didn’t lose because of the DNC, he lost because he wasn’t a good enough candidate, couldn’t get the Black vote.
Emma
@Reggie Mantle: And his supporters booed him. In a way, I’m glad. He’s finding out the consequences of all his screaming about corruption and evil in the Democratic party. Funny thing about crusades: they get out of hand really quickly.
pseudonymous in nc
@Goblue72:
That’s the now-cast from straight after the RNC, not the forecast, so nice cherry-picking there.
What the fuck do you want here? A hand job?
different-church-lady
@NR:
VOTERS, MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU SPEAK IT?
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
@Reggie Mantle:
Probably because of this Reg.
The Thin Black Duke
@Emma: I really appreciate hearing a whiny white guy bitching about how unfair Life is.
Miss Bianca
@Hildebrand: that pretty much corresponds with my personal poll of Libertarians (limited to a sample of one).
@NR: Well, Bernie *definitely* isn’t that candidate, NimRod, so whatcha gonna do?
Ruckus
@Emma:
The answer to both questions is nothing.
The extortion attempts will never stop coming. The reply can be to just ignore them. But then we wouldn’t be democrats if we ignored people who need massive levels of help.
Your second question really has 2 parts. What does or what can the democratic party do to satisfy the bernistas and nothing is the answer because they don’t really have any realistic concepts to address. The second answer is that we could just ignore them. Of course I answered that in the first part.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
“Having started the fire, the arsonist then said it should be put out. When is the ticker tape parade for this hero?”
“hire”, are we keeping a list of words Reggie doesn’t understand? nah
cmorenc
@Reggie Mantle:
So far, team Clinton’s reaction to the DWS debacle has been to vividly illustrate that she/they haven’t quite been able to kick the habit of occasionally making disastrously oblivious decisions – sure, they’re trying to graciously handle DWS without excessive bruising to her feelings, but the bigger picture is that DWS is political kryptonite who has to be forcefully hustled out of sight and sound with a net and hook before this afternoon. Which is more damning – that Trump can’t even manage a successful deal with rival Cruz about his convention appearance, or that Hillary can’t manage a successful deal with one of her own loyalists about her convention appearance (or nonappearance)?
Reggie Mantle
@Tilda Swinton’s Bald Cap:
Of course. Endorsement isn’t enough. Nothing ever is for the haters.
JPL
Perfectly reasonable rant by John Cole, is once again ruined that by those, that would rather see Trump elected, cuz their man lost.
lethargytartare
@Miss Bianca:
this X 1000.
dedc79
@PaulWartenberg2016:
Every time I hear a progressive complain that Obama didn’t accomplish A, B and C, I remind them that we progressives rewarded Obama for all he achieved in the first two years in office by not showing up to vote, and sticking him with a Congress that was motivated almost entirely by a desire to be against whatever he was for.
Emma
@The Thin Black Duke: Yeah. Well, I hold tightly to Maya Angelou’s dictum: When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.
Nothing that has happened has changed my mind.
hovercraft
@NR:
No not all. But members of a party fight over policy, but at the end of the day they come together over the things they do agree on, policy disputes are about method and degree not principle, impugning your opponents motives and character makes it harder to come together at the end of the process.
That is why the woman marching right now in Philly is saying that Trump is less dangerous than Hillary.
jl
@hovercraft: Sanders needs to start yelling at them to stop being so childish.
Cermet
I liked O’malley and thought Bernie had merit; no matter, what does matter and a great deal is getting a democrat into office to name Inferior Court Judges so once again, it can be called a Supreme Court. Also, fix a lot of the issues with ACA. Get tuition issues more settled (sorry, but removal of the debt isn’t happening even if HRC had wanted too …), and finally, get the EPA up on AGW (as much as possible.) Only Hillary can do all this and more how. I will vote for her and send cash. This is a MUST win even if she is one term; this is THE critical term to cement President’s Obama’ legacy’s and pack the court as it should. Anyone who whines about HRC needs to join the fart club for rump because you stink, and frankly, are foul.
muddy
Dear John,
I think you take the idea of not switching over soon enough and not arguing about that change quite personally. I wonder if this has to do with the years it took you to stop being a Republican. Nothing like the zeal of the converted.
Reggie Mantle
@cmorenc:
This, this, a thousand times this. Giving DWS even an “honorary” position within 24 hours after resigning in disgrace does nothing but hand the “both sides are corrupt” crowd another club to beat her with.
different-church-lady
@pseudonymous in nc: Folks should keep this in mind: this very particular cherry pick is being repeated endlessly on another of my on-line hangouts by people with undisguised conservative/republican political views. And politics are off-topic over there.
Our supposed “progressive” betters are doing a very good job of keeping up-to-the-minute on the latest buzz for the other team.
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
@Reggie Mantle: So you are saying that Bernie should let these folks behave like this in front of the Villagers? I am not talking about Bernie, I am asking about the behavior of these people.
RK
Sure they would. And because you say so.
JMG
At some point, the winner gets to tell the runner-up take it or leave it. Then the runner-up does what he/she does. Sanders has chosen to take it. Some of his supporters apparently aren’t as mature, but they’ve always had an inordinate belief in the power of yelling.
Cermet
@jl: Aside: Sanders is doing an excellent job and frankly, he can’t change tRump followers and that is what they are if they refuse to vote for HRC.
D58826
@Emma:
Problem with paying the Danegeld is you never get rid of the Dane
Miss Bianca
@louc: to say nothing of the fact that DWS is, herself, Jewish and is being reviled as an anti-Semite for this whole brouhaha, even tho’ she had NOTHING to do with it. Faith, ’tis a mad world, my masters.
The Thin Black Duke
@NR: No, Bernie’s problems are Bernie’s fault.
Emma
@D58826: My statement yesterday exactly. Useful old saw, isn’t it.
dogwood
@hovercraft:
Is he really going to give that same speech tonight as well? Is he so dense or self centered that he can’t come up with some grace or seriousness about the kind threat Donald Trump poses to this country and the world? It was frightening to read about what went on in Cleveland, seeing the same stuff at Democratic Convention just makes me sad. It’s not entertaining or informative no matter which side of the fence pulls these stunts. I take responsibility for my vote. If the crazy white racist republicans and the nasty, predominantly white Berniacs inadvertently join forces to elect Trump, then that is on them. Blaming anyone else for their selfish idiocy just doesn’t cut it for me. I’m certainly not going to watch these people behave so indecently. You don’t have any claim to some grand moral high ground on policy issues if you can’t even display moral decency as an individual.
LAC
@bemused: AMEN. This should have also been said in 2010 before we sat on our hands and let the house slip out from under us largely because a bunch of purity pony fuckers and dead end PUMAs (some who sit here on BJ and pretend that they have always been for Obama now that he supporting Clinton) threw tantrums and wanted to “show ’em”. That went soooo well.
Loviatar
@D58826:
I’m blasting it out repeatedly on every site I comment on. Fuck the DWS vs. Bernie cat-fight. My god we’re about to give our most critical governmental intelligence to the Russians. We have a non-incidental chance of waking up on Wed. Nov. 9, 2016 as a Russian satellite state. Why is this not numero uno on every fucking news show/blog site.
low-tech cyclist
@Tom65:
Bingo. The DNC emails are at about a 1 on my 0-10 scale of outrage; DWS’ general incompetence and love of payday lenders are about a 3.5. Trump’s a 9.5.
WaterGirl
What’s so difficult to understand about this concept?
You wanted Bernie to be the democratic nominee:
That ship has already sailed.
Nominating someone besides Hillary as the democratic nominee:
That ship has already sailed.
You wanted a different democratic VP candidate in this election:
That ship has already sailed.
Superdelegates existing in the 2016 democratic primary:
That ship has already sailed.
You wanted DWS out / didn’t want DWS out at the DNC:
That ship has already sailed.
You would like a different/better candidate representing the Democratic party this year:
That ship has already sailed.
Repeat after me: THAT SHIP HAS ALREADY SAILED. And ask yourself this question: What can I do now to make sure Donald Trump does not destroy this country?
Ruckus
@TaMara (HFG):
This may be true but do you think it will really help? I’m not convinced that the people who need to hear it are even capable of the process.
Emma
@RK: Communist (honeymoon is Moscow, hardy-har-har). Atheist. Illegitimate child, God help us. Wife ripped off and destroyed a college. Where are your real tax returns?
By the time the MSM and their Republican masters finished with him, he’d been lucky to get 20% of the vote.
hovercraft
@JMG:
She is more dangerous than him because she is a republican. Four years of Trump doing nothing is better than another eight years without a progressive candidate. She will never vote for Hillary. All this according to Claudia from NH.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Here then, I’ll be even more explicit — Bernie is the Russian plant, and you were too stupid to see it.
You would rather put one of the two guys with close ties to Russia into the White House than Hillary Clinton. Why is that, exactly?
apocalipstick
The overemphasis on the presidency is part of the problem. We elect a president, not an emperor or king. Presidents have limited power; it’s part of our system. Note how easily Obama’s DREAM attempt was checked by the SCOTUS. That’s a feature of our system, not a bug. Bernie as president would be King Lear, raging against an immovable Congress. Electing your candidate as president is nice, but the real power exists when you change the dynamics in Congress. Revolution, at least revolution that works, rises up from the bottom; it do not stream down from the top. You want a progressive agenda, elect a progressive representative and senators. Understand our system, find its levers, and pull them.
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
@Emma: Also, proposing to raise everyone’s taxes, eleventy million percent. Yeah, I know the Republicans wouldn’t do it. That’s beside the point, anyone who’s paid any attention to politics in the last 50 years knows what a loser it is to run on raising taxes. Bernie would have been crushed in the general.
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne: He is a Marxist, all the Democratic Socialist stuff was window dressing.
Reggie Mantle
@dogwood:
I predicted weeks ago that no matter what Bernie did or said, the Clintonistas wouldn’t accept it. They’d bitch that he wasn’t enthusiastic enough or that he wouldn’t say whatever the magic words du jour might be.
And lo, even as I have prophesied, so it has come to pass.
Irony Abounds
Hey, I really don’t like Hillary, and think the Dems are a bunch of idiots for clearing the path for her to win or at least assuming she was going to win and having better candidates (Warren and Kaine come to mind) stay out, but anyone who even considers not voting for her or even worse voting for Trump out of spite or lack of purity is so gobsmackingly stupid that I’m surprised they can process the need to move one foot in front of the other in order to walk. The alternative is Donald Fucking Trump, an utterly odious and dangerous stain on the human race.
Trollhattan
@Hildebrand:
Did they? The hell is the matter with them? [Rhetorical question BTW.] I will not allow my Nancy SMASH! be impugned by small people!
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
What part of “Bernie’s delegates are on live teevee booing everyone onstage INCLUDING BERNIE” is confusing to you?
You helped build this. Own it. It’s your shitshow, because you were more interested in championing Bernie than in defeating Trump.
PaulWartenberg2016
@Enhanced Voting Techinques:
Actually Debbie has been a problematic DNC chair for a few years.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/9/13/1420708/-As-The-World-Turns-Against-Debbie-Wasserman-Schultz
Betty Cracker
@Reggie Mantle: Maybe you’ll eventually realize what seems to be dawning on Bernie right about now: There’s no placating that particular mob.
Emma
@Reggie Mantle: Nobody is talking about Bernie, except to mention that he’s lost control of his monster. We’re talking about that rump of dead-enders that seem to think they’re going to get him elected because…. reasons.
dr. bloor
Fuck this noise. Whatever happens today and tomorrow, a couple nights from now Barack Fucking Obama and Joe Fucking Biden are going to take the stage and deliver a vision of a future worth having even while repeatedly hitting Trump upside the head with a rhetorical folding chair.
liberal
@apocalipstick:
Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis murdered by President G. W. Bush.
Mnemosyne
@Reggie Mantle:
Shorter Reggie: “I look forward to Comrade Trump’s reign!”
As I said yesterday and today, if you can’t decide between Hillary and Trump, you shouldn’t be trusted around sharp objects. But you’ve made your choice already, comrade.
Brachiator
@negative 1:
Actually, a tradition of this blog, and many others, is false criticism that is really nothing more than an endless rehashing of old arguments. For example, the folks who still pop up to debate whether Obama should have fought for the public option in 2008.
RK
No one knows how any other candidate would do against Trump. Using such speculation as an anti-Hillary argument is asinine.
different-church-lady
@Betty Cracker:
Am I a fuckin’ genius or what?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Of course, all the angry white men rallying for Trump are eager to vote for the old coot who shouts “I’m to raise your taxes, for your own good!” People who want to build a wall and bomb the shit out of them and take their oil are the natural consistency for Bernie!
Kropadope
@WaterGirl: If you want everyone to feel like they were included in the process, that ship has sailed.
ETA: Granted that to the extent that voting access problems existed, it was due to Republican ratfuckery.
WaterGirl
@hovercraft: @Jim, Foolish Literalist: The person who will gavel the proceedings was selected and announced yesterday. There is a new “permanent chair” of the DNC convention for this year. I believe the only role DWS has at the convention now is as a delegate.
liberal
@Mnemosyne:
LOL. Yeah. The Ukraine completely reeled in its oligarchs after Yanukovich (who is admittedly corrupt) was ousted.
rikyrah
@Kenneth Kohl:
Sorry for your loss
catclub
202 replies in an hour. Just making mine, too, also.
different-church-lady
@WaterGirl:
Well, me, I’m not going to be happy until she surrenders that, and gets a bucket of pig’s blood dumped on her at the prom.
Reggie Mantle
@Kropadope:
Oh, they’ll tell you how you plan on actually voting, even if you’ve told them a hundred times you’ll be voting differently. They have to believe you’re a secret Trumper because no TRUE Democrat can oppose the Queen.
Robert Sneddon
@Robin G.:
Cranky old grease-splattered shade-tree car mechanic voice: Wayull, I can see yer problem right there…
SFAW
@Emma:
You seem to think Reggie cares. He doesn’t. He knows perfectly well that people here are primarily complaining about the NeverHillary crowd, not Bernie. (Yeah, there’s some spillover, but not much.) But acknowledging that would not allow him to do his standard “you all fucking suck” schtick.
I guess there is a possibility that Reggie cannot comprehend English above a fifth grade level, and therefore can’t comprehend what has been written — except for the stuff that commenters have typed in v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y — but that seems unlikely.
Ruckus
@Loviatar:
1958- 2016 Republican party slogan: Party before Country
Fixed it for you
different-church-lady
@Reggie Mantle: Why, who will you be voting for?
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne:
Fuck you. I’ve never been anywhere booing anyone. I’ve made one political donation so far this year and it was to Hillary, not Bernie. More to come when I have more money and the fields are better defined. I’ve been brushing up on my local elections, today I’m focusing on the State Senate, thanks to BJ banner ads. I’ve even reached out to volunteer.
If anyone helped build this, it was people like you. Unwilling to consider alternatives, unwilling to engage in factual debate, you lie and disparage the history and intentions of people you don’t agree with. You’re no better than those assholes booing Pelosi et al.
NR
@Betty Cracker: Of course. Hillary Clinton can’t fail, she can only be failed.
Tee
@Goblue72: Um…I live in a republican household and a republican community. And would never vote for Sanders. We need people like Cole to stir things up and starkly yell at us to make sure we understand the real need to vote to defeat Trump. Sanders supporters are basically enabling Trump. They are like the weak parent who does not want to “stifle” a child’s inner spirit with discipline. Discipline is the the structure that you build positive action with. Sometimes you need to make sure the message of that a certain action is wrong, very wrong and must never be repeated, before growth can occur. Learning means failing. You don’t learn unless you have failed before succeeding. Having something handed to you without effort means you don’t appreciate or value it. I realize you work hard for down ticket and I applaud you for that. But by not holding your nose and voting for the top of the ticket you are enabling both the neverHillary voters and the Trump fascists. The republican party needs to have a serious wake up call so that this idiotic trend of do-nothing, tear everything apart nihilists get that real people want real solutions not just anger inducing fear phrases. I am working with people who will not ever vote for a straight Democratic ticket. But I can convince them to vote for Clinton/Kaine because the alternative is wasting a vote on pipe dream 3rd party or not voting at all. Voting is too important to be wasted and your vote will make a difference. Even if you feel it will just run up the score….do it anyway because not everyone will be smart enough or learn well enough that it could make a difference. You can make a difference.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
You’re funny.
dogwood
@Reggie Mantle:
So you support these Bernie delegates taking over the narrative of the convention by behaving exactly like the republicans in Cleveland? You don’t think given the seriousness of of a potential Trump presidency, Bernie might abandon his stump speech for the first time in 18 months and try something else to persuade these people? You demand so much from Clinton, Obama and every other “establishment” democrat, but require so little from Bernie.
Tazj
@lethargytartare: This also, too. In order to change things you have to vote period. As president Obama has said “don’t boo, vote.” That is the only way things will change, What I hate most about some of these Johnny come lately Bernie voters is that they don’t seem to realize this.
Now I realize not all Bernie voters are like this, my sister was all Bernie in the primary but will vote for Hillary in the general. I like Bernie, but I resent being told (by some twenty or thirty something) that we (Democrats ) have been doing wrong. I’ve been voting for years and have donated money and phoned banked. I’d like some more liberal policies enacted but things don’t change overnight, you have to vote in every election.
Because of gerrymandering, I’m now in a Congressional district that’s Republican by about 60-40%. The Democrat running against Chris Collins was an Iraq war veteran, and a Buffalo policeman who graduated from law school. However, he lost to a business man who wouldn’t spend the federal stimulus money and wouldn’t let federal inspectors into the Erie County holding center after 4 people committed suicide there.
Seanly
@Dan:
I’m an atheist & I say AMEN to this post!
Keith G
It’s all good!! Remember, we now live in a social media driven noise
windfuck tunnel. Every step along this path gets over-analysed to the point of obsession.Christ, it’s like evaluating a football game one play at a time. Sometime the offense make a good gain and you’re sure that the heavens are smiling. Once in a while the defense turns your QB into goo and you know the apocalypse has arrived. Step away from the Twitters unless you have faith in the big picture. We have a strong team in place and they will be able to take advantage of the conditions facing them.
Ignore the noise. That alone will kill the noise makers. Trust that the media will indeed take the lazy route and substitute bullshit for intelligence. And know by Wednesday of next week, none of this will matter.
Except for a few key speeches – and we know that they will be great.
catclub
@RK:
But there WAS a Slate article that outlined how the GOP could go after Bernie with a variety of attacks that Clinton never bothered with.
[You could look it up.]
Atheism was the least of them, but still likely to be pretty effective in these United States, today.
Mnemosyne
@Reggie Mantle:
Fix’d to reflect reality. Are you really not seeing what’s going on in real time on live TV right now? Bernie was booed by his own delegates for not being anti-Clinton enough.
Bernie created a monster and now he’s helplessly watching it rampage through the countryside while he wrings his hands and says, “Who knew?”
D58826
@hovercraft: Listening to some of the folks walking on South Broad and any body is better than Hillary. There is nothing that Trump can do or say that is worse than what Hillary is. Why don’t these folks just go the h—-ll home and join the GOP.
The Thin Black Duke
@Kropadope: Wahhhh, Life is so unfair.
Miss Bianca
@Tee: From your mouth to DOC’s ear.
NR
@Keith G: Meanwhile, in the real world, the Kaine pick combined with the DWS hire is a one-two punch that is going to cost Hillary a lot of progressive support. It may even result in her being booed at her own acceptance speech. And the optics of that will be, to say the least, not good.
Here’s a fun little research project: Who was the last major-party presidential candidate to be booed at their acceptance speech, and how did they do in the election?
different-church-lady
@Keith G: Thank you. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
Mnemosyne
@Irony Abounds:
I think a few of them actually think that we can still swap in a new candidate (whose name just happens to start with B, amirite?) with no problem. I mean, the 4 million Democratic voters who voted for Hillary over Bernie wouldn’t have any problem with that, I’m sure.
// (sarcasm tag)
catclub
@Keith G: This! Unemployment is 5%, the economy is meh to almost good. I think the US pop
will not look to tear it all down. And I do think they realize that is what a vote for Trump means.
Murder rate and crime rates are near 40 year lows. Nixon had better timing than Trump.
dogwood
@Reggie Mantle:
Bullshit. No true Democrat would do anything to enable a Trump presidency.
NR
@D58826:
Gosh, you’d think a party might think twice about nominating a candidate so radioactive. Oh well. Ships have sailed, and all that.
Reggie Mantle
@dogwood:
Why should he? Whatever he does or says, it won’t be enough for you unless he commits seppuku on the podium while begging Clinton’s forgiveness.
DramaMama
John Cole, I hereby dub thee my Anger Translator.
catclub
@D58826:
A lot of people just want attention, and know that they will get it from the media if they have unusual views. Why? I got nothin.
D58826
Listening to Mrs. Greenspan that Bernie and Jane have never trusted the democratic party. Then why did they join it? I hope Bernie and Jane enjoy living in Trump’s America.
Tom65
The level of denial in here is astounding.
Yes, Bernie lost the primary.
Yes, Trump should be defeated, and refusing to accept that this is of the utmost importance is fucking stupid.
That being said, it does us no good to ignore the elephant in the room. Clinton has 70% negative ratings, which would spell doom against any candidate other than Trump. Sanders supporters and independents have a point when they say that Clinton’s ham-fisted appointment of DWS to her campaign – in ANY capacity – simply reinforces the perception (fair or unfair) that Clinton is rewarding corruption. What’s worse, it keeps the media and the opposition yammering about it for days. Why would you willingly hand them a massive talking point like that before the convention has even started? It’s just blindingly stupid from a campaign management perspective, and we should all be nervous about the campaign making more of these errors of hubris down the road. Face it, she has a knack for this kind of shit.
different-church-lady
@NR:
VOTERS, HOW DO THEY FUCKING WORK?
gogol's wife
@dr. bloor:
I have to just tattoo this on my hand and stay away from this blog.
apocalipstick
@liberal:
AUMF.
297 Reps.
77 Senators.
Yeah, GWB did it on his own.
Learn the system.
D58826
@Mnemosyne: One of the marchers actually said they hoped the super delegates would flip and give the nomination to Bernie. Because democracy or something….
WaterGirl
@Kropadope:
I completely agree! It was a flawed process this year. It was a flawed process in 2012. It was a flawed process in 2008. We can improve on it, but it will always be a flawed process.
We are now to the point where it feels like some of Bernie’s people are just throwing a tantrum: It’s not fair!!! I learned at the age of 4 that throwing a tantrum would get me exactly NOWHERE.
I didn’t want Hillary Clinton to be the nominee. Do you know who I did want? It doesn’t matter, because that person wasn’t running. At some point you have to suck it up and realize that ship has sailed.
Have these people never had a boss that made a decision they didn’t like? I have. You fight for what you believe in, but once a decision is made, the decision is made and you move on. When I used to interview candidates for jobs in my unit at the University, I always asked this question:
Why did I ask that question? Because that’s the sign of a grown-up, that’s the sign of a professional – when you don’t agree with a decision but you accept that the decision has been made and you move on.
It seems like this is a totally new concept to some people. Have none of these Bernie people never held a professional job? If they are in school, have they never had a teacher who gave them a B when they thought they deserved an A? You can meet with the prof and make your case, but you’re not the one who gets to decide. So you accept reality and move on.
Reggie Mantle
@Tom65:
Exactly. Prepare to be told you’re really a Trump voter. Or a Russian. Or Karl Rove.
NR
@different-church-lady: Gosh, you’d think voters might think twice about nominating a candidate so radioactive.
Better?
Mnemosyne
@liberal:
Oh, well, if there are still oligarchs in Ukraine, then it’s A-OK to have someone with political ties to Putin running Bernie’s campaign! I didn’t realize that Ukraine having ongoing problems made it okay for the Russians to back specific candidates for president in the US. Thank you, comrade, for correcting my wrongthink against Comrade Putin!
LAC
@NR: a really fun research project, name the last time someone, oh say named NR, made a political prediction, was wrong, and then gave it a rest. I’ll wait….
apocalipstick
@different-church-lady:
Hey, hey be careful! Remember what happened next, okay?
D58826
@Tom65:
If Hillary had personally tarred and feather DWS and then drove her up Broad Street naked to be hung from the top of Billy Penn on City hall, she would have been criticized by for not using hot enough tar.
sigaba
You’re telling me I can go on GrubHub and order the exact plate of Kung Pan Tofu I want, hold the hot peppers, with steamed rice, spring rolls and two Thai Iced Teas, but when it comes to voting I gotta go column A or column B?
That’s why people don’t get it, they treat voting like it’s a consumer decision, because 99.999% of all the actions people take in the public realm in the US are consumer decisions. And in the US if you’re a consumer, you get 20 kinds of toothpaste, people hawking stuff are constantly catering to your every whim, and every purchase can be endlessly customized. People want to believe in their president at least as much as they believe in their taco bowl at Chipotle, because why not?
WaterGirl
@different-church-lady: I’ll get back to you when we have perfected the whole time travel thing. :-)
Mnemosyne
@Reggie Mantle:
Voting for Jill Stein, are we? Say, is there any particular reason you can think of that the Russian government’s media outlet Russia Today would volunteer to sponsor the Green/Libertarian debate? Just out of the goodness of their hearts, I suppose.
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
@sigaba: Yes, I can’t configure this candidate like I can my phone. I’m not doing it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
1) what corruption?
2) how many “independents” do you know who know who DWS is?
D58826
Robert Cosata on MSNBC is talking about how Rancid Pebis is speculating that there are more e-mails to come out. Wonder if he has a pipeline to Vlaid? He also said that the RNC hasn’t been hacked. Yea right. I’m sure the Russians have every e-mail that the RNC ever sent as well as Trumps. It just isn’t in their interest to publish them.
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
@Mnemosyne: Reggie’s voting for himself. I’ve traced Reggie’s IP address, and it turns out its coming from Trump Tower. Now you know why Trump’s campaign is so disorganized, he’s either tweeting or posting here under the name of Reggie Mantle.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
You keep telling yourself that. I’m sure it will be very comforting when Hillary loses because you were more interested in staying pure than in working to get her elected.
And, yes, if you can look at the chaos at the convention and not be pissed off, you’ve got your head so firmly lodged in your ass, it’s never going to come loose. Again, those aren’t Clinton’s delegates acting like fools. They’re Bernie’s.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
Of course. Hillary Clinton can’t fail, she can only be failed.
The Ancient Randonneur
The return of the the Cole-inator! Love ya, bruh. You’re the reason I keep coming back because whoever keeps posting all those cute pet pics under your nym doesn’t have me fooled for a second..
Betty Cracker
@Keith G: The voice of sanity. Thank you.
dedc79
@Tom65:
No, you don’t get to say they have a point regardless of whether the allegations are fair or unfair. If the allegations are unfair, then they do not have a point.
Tom65
@D58826:
Cute, but it really doesn’t address the issue does it?
Pogonip
@John Cole: Shorter John Cole: “I hate all of you.”
Ruckus
@Miss Bianca:
I’m sitting here wondering if their job really is to get voter turnout. I don’t really know but if their job is completely different than what an awful lot of people seem to think it is, which I suspect is true, given that the person holding the job has never performed the job an awful lot of people think it is, maybe we should get ourselves schooled in what the job entails so we don’t think that everyone ever hired to do it has been wrong. So I spent a minute or so and looked. I think a lot of us may owe DWS and every other person to ever hold the position of chair of the DNC an apology. And BTW I’m not a fan of hers, not in the least. What I’m also not a fan of is berating a person for doing the job assigned to them, while mistakenly expecting something else from them. That’s on me, not on them.
Not that a good portion of our citizens don’t have the slightest clue of what some jobs actually entail, such as the job of president. And this includes senators who don’t think one of their job requirements is to advise and consent about USSC nominees. We as a nation are sorely lacking in education, not even knowing how our government works, or how political parties work and worse, so many not having any concept of even trying to learn. It’s not like info isn’t available.
Loviatar
here kitty, kitty
here kitty, kitty
come here sweetie
tck, tck
get the fuck over here you stupid fucking
catsandernista, its time to get inside so I can get some work done.different-church-lady
@Pogonip: Can’t say I blame him, really.
Tom65
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
1. The corruption noted in the emails, for which DWS stepped down. Remember that?
2. Given the legs this story has, I imagine quite a few more than this time yesterday.
dogwood
@NR:
Bitching about Kaine is proof you aren’t an honest broker. He’s a progressive, and an experienced public servant who has worked on causes that are important to many democrats. With respect to some of those causes like gun control, immigration reform, and civil rights he is much farther to the left and far more passionate than Sanders. You don’t get to decide that your priorities and the Bernistas priorities are the only ones that must matter to “true progressives”.
different-church-lady
@Ruckus: Witch hunters aren’t really into research accuracy.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne:
There’s more than one way to act like a fool.
Mnemosyne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The ones who watch Fox News every day, where DWS has been the object of daily hate for years now.
It ain’t a coincidence that the virulent DWS hate at the convention is accompanied by a bunch of Paulista delegates for Bernie.
Tazj
@Tazj: I just meant to add that Congressmen Chris Collins, was the Republican county executive when he refused to spend the stimulus money and let inspectors into the county holding center. He was defeated for county executive (because he sucked at it) but later ran for Congress after 2010 elections. Voila, he’s back in business and one of tRump’s first Congressional supporters.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
You mean when the one staffer said, “Should we do this?” and the other one said “No”? That’s “corruption” to you?
Ampersand
Nothing will stop me from voting for Hillary in November. I was a Bernie supporter, and I think that she’s a better general election candidate than him. He horribly mishandled the final stages of the primary. Despite that, I don’t think she’s a good candidate overall, and I’m finding her to be a hard sell, in terms of convincing my D-leaning friends to vote for her.
Please note: there are two types of Clinton problems. There are the imaginary or overblown “scandals” that the GOP has manufactured from thin air, and then there are the real-life centrist positions that she’s taken. When I’ve mentioned the latter, I’ve found that certain types of Hillary supporters seem to think that I actually mean the former, and accuse me of “falling” for something. I’m not talking about ’90s conspiracy stuff, I’m talking about her positions, which are right there for everyone to see.
Yeah, if Bernie had gotten more media coverage, and people had found out about his tax positions, his softer support would’ve vanished. So I agree that it’s disingenuous to say “The mainstream would’ve liked him more!” But, as it stands, the (batshit crazy) GOP candidate is making statements about free trade and war that are to the left of our own candidate, and that is simply not a good look. Trump would govern based on whims, and he’s constantly contradicting himself, so it shouldn’t matter that much. But defending free trade in 2016…yeah, um, that may not be a good idea. The economy is certainly better than it was in the Bush years, but there are many, many places where it’s still bad (through no fault of Obama’s), and messages like “Free trade has worked out great!” and “Let’s not make any major changes!” won’t go over well. I keep hearing that being against free trade is too far-left of a position to take in a general election, but the Republicans seem just fine with it.
I would never say any of this to an undecided voter. And I’d never boo, either. But, my god, I hope our side can get its act together.
In my group of friends, we all supported Obama in ’08, and most of us did in ’12, as well. (A few of them got burned out on politics, or had unrealistic, unicorn-ish expectations and got disappointed.) I’m currently the only Hillary supporter in the group, and I don’t even like her. The others either aren’t voting, are voting for Stein (two of them), and one is voting for Trump because he wants to see someone go after the corporations. Most of them are terrified of Trump, but they’re also apathetic about Hillary, and cursing at them probably won’t improve the situation…
catclub
@Ruckus: Howard Dean was DNC chair in 2006, the best mid-term election for Democrats in a LONG time.
He also had wonderful tailwinds. Katrina, Iraq war, Terry Schiavo, what else?
Mnemosyne
@NR:
And when you are presented with incontrovertible evidence that a foreign power is putting their thumb on the scale by working for Trump, you just stick your fingers in your ears and keep gulping down the propaganda they’re feeding you. Good job, comrade!
Kropadope
@The Thin Black Duke: Man, you’re an ignorant fuck.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@catclub: Mark Foley, Tom Delay, Jack Abramoff, Bush’s attempt to privatize Social Security, Dick Cheney….
catclub
@Ampersand:
Does this person realize that would take work, and there is one thing Trump does not do, and it is work?
dedc79
@NR:
Yeah how dare she support that sellout Kaine, who devoted his legal career to fighting housing discrimination, who has a 100% pro choice voting record in the senate according to Planned Parenthood, has an F rating from the NRA (but managed to be elected twice in gun-toting VA), is opposed to the death penalty. And so on.
NR
@dogwood:
Kaine is one of the most conservative Democrats in the Senate by voting record.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
Regardless of Wikileaks’ potential Russian connections, they didn’t write the emails.
Irony Abounds
@Tom65: Most of what you say is dead on, the problem is nothing can be done to change any of it at this point. It is Clinton or Trump now. And no person with an IQ over 10 could possibly think it matters little which one wins. I would love to helicopter drop Biden, or Warren, or Brown or Kaine or Franken, or Wyden, or Gillibrand in as an alternate candidate, because any one of them, or really any other credible Dem candidate would win (I don’t think Sanders would do much better than Hillary), but Dem voters picked Hillary, despite her considerable baggage. We have the Dem candidate we have, not the one we might otherwise want, and the alternative is so dangerous, and so potentially destructive to the country, we’re just going to have to work like hell to elect HRC, warts and all.
Mnemosyne
@Ampersand:
I am a little worked up right now, so I’ll try to ask politely: can you please name the CURRENT positions of Hillary’s that your friends have problems with and not the ones from 10 or more years ago? She’s already become TPP-skeptical, so there may be other areas where your friends don’t realize she’s changed positions. KTHXBAI.
different-church-lady
@catclub:
Reggie Mantle
@Tilda Swinton’s Bald Cap:
Well, I suppose the claim that I AM Trump is marginally more amusing than the lie that I’m voting for him.
LAC
@Kropadope: hold up a mirror and look. You will see a bigger one.
dedc79
@NR: He represents one of the most conservative states to have elected a Democratic Senator. Which of his votes in the Senate are you concerned about?
different-church-lady
@NR: We know this because if they had written the emails, there’d be an actual scandal somewhere in them.
Irony Abounds
@NR: Go suck your purity binkie, crawl into your purity crib and cover yourself with your purity blanket. Tim Kaine is a fine man with a long record of helping those in need. He has a solid progressive record and if the selection of Tim Kaine gives you so much heartburn that you won’t vote for Hillary, there is something terribly wrong with you.
D58826
@Tom65: Yes it does. Bernie’s supporters will criticize her no matter what she does on the subject of DWS. After all Hillary is the black hole of all evil.
different-church-lady
@Reggie Mantle: So, who are you voting for?
Reggie Mantle
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Anyone ever find the “no” e-mail? I kept asking last night and never got a straight answer. Surprise surprise. I did find the “AMEN” e-mail from the CEO, Dacey. It’s a pretty simple search engine at Wikileaks.
So where’s the “no,” e-mail? Anyone? Anyone? Beuller?
different-church-lady
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Well, you know, “wedge questions” are against the law in 17 states now.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Link? Because I’m seeing the opposite.
Ampersand
@catclub:
He doesn’t think Trump will really do it, but he’s at least said he will, while Hillary hasn’t said anything like that. I strongly disagreed with him and urged him to vote for Hillary. I also reminded him that, in general, Dem politicians are better at going after big business.
Tom65
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Forest, trees. The fact that there was any discussion going on inside the DNC as to how best help Clinton during the primary is the issue.
Mike in NC
Pro-Trump trolls are out in force. Expect this thread to exceed 500 posts about NeverHillary.
Bobby Thomson
@different-church-lady: don’t feed the shit head rat fucking Yankee fan. We all know he’s a Relublican ratfucker.
NR
@Irony Abounds:
Sure, if you live in la la land or something.
NR
@Mnemosyne: Here you go.
different-church-lady
@Tom65: I know, man. Thought Crime is really the worst kind of crime.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Please show an action taken by the DNC against Bernie that can be traced back to those emails. An ad, a line from a speech, something. Just one.
Otherwise, it’s like calling up my husband and telling him I’m cheating on him because I post pictures of my celebrity imaginary ex-husband online.
Reggie Mantle
@different-church-lady:
“”It may make no difference but for KY and WA can we get someone to ask his belief? He had skated on having a Jewish heritage. I read he is an atheist. This could make several points difference with my peeps. My Southern Baptist peeps would draw a big difference between a Jew and an atheist.”
This is apparently okay with you.
Bobby Thomson
@Irony Abounds: again, just ignore these Republican ratfuckers.
Tom65
@D58826:
Bernie’s supporters will criticize her no matter what she does on the subject of DWS. After all Hillary is the black hole of all evil.
When did this place become firedoglake?
different-church-lady
@Bobby Thomson: I was just curious to know if he was another of those “I don’t want anyone to win” types.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
I’m not the person you’re replying to, but what you seem to be missing is that there is more to a candidate than their policy positions. People don’t like Hillary Clinton and they sure as hell don’t trust her. And so it’s not really surprising that they wouldn’t believe her when she claims to have “evolved” on issues.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Before the Great Email “Scandal”, Bernistas were all like, well, we tried, but we didn’t have the votes, now let’s knuckle down and get to the hard work of electing candidates who will support legislation to advance our agenda. Now, they just… can’t. Poor things.
Ampersand
@Mnemosyne:
These aren’t policies, but more general issues:
1. They think she’s too supportive of Wall Street, and want someone that will go after them aggressively.
2. They don’t like some of the things that she’s done in the Middle East, and I’m not talking about Benghazi.
3. They want someone that supports some form of universal healthcare.
I agree with them on all those things, but I’m voting for Hillary anyway. Supreme Court picks, etc.
I’m sure you’re picturing young, elite, far-left city-dwellers, but we all live in a rural area, and we’re left-leaning populist types in our thirties. Not one of us makes more than sixty thousand a year. My dream is to make that much at some point in my life, actually…
Tom65
@different-church-lady:
We’re talking about a specific rule within the DNC being broken. The DNC, by their own rules, are supposed to remain impartial during the primary.
Kropadope
@LAC: Right, because I’m the one just saying arbitrary shit as responses that have nothing to do with what I’m actually responding to. No, wait, that’s the Thin Black Duke.
different-church-lady
@Reggie Mantle: No, I was quite appalled when he got asked about that repeatedly all throughout the campaign. I mean it was just, “Bernie, what do believe in? Bernie, are you into God?” endlessly, the whole damn primary long. Really, it would have been much better if they had thought twice and not actually done any of that.
catclub
@different-church-lady: I was getting there.
different-church-lady
@Tom65: No, we’re talking about breaking a specific rule being discussed and then not broken.
catclub
@Ampersand:
What does a lightly used kidney go for, these days. And throw in a coupla pints of plasma!
Mnemosyne
@NR:
They certainly have an, um, interesting choice of issues, don’t they? Nothing specifically about police, guns, or minority rights (though they do have a subcategory for gay rights). Several “main” categories that seem to overlap.
Miss Bianca
@Tom65: No. I am of the school that says the entire Democratic Party should have come out in support of DWS and against validating this kind of “we wuz rooobbbbed” bullshit from the Sanders camp. DWS should not have had to resign. And Sanders needs to grow a pair and tackle this bullshit narrative – that he was instrumental in spawning – head-on. Buit that would make him a completely different person – a different leader – than the one he’s shown himself to be so far. Maybe the experience of getting booed by his OWN FUCKING FOLLOWERS and realizing that even HE isn’t pure enough for them will be a wake-up call to him. Maybe I’ll get a pony delivered to my door, too. As Judy Tenuta liked to say, “IT COULD HAPPEN.”
catclub
@Ampersand:
you could even point to recent facts: The Obama admin is suing to stop various megamergers in Health insurance.
That branch of the Justice department was shut down from 2001-2009. Ask Microsoft.
D58826
@Ampersand:
Ah you do remember Hillarycare in 1993? That was universal healthcare. It crashed and burned. Universal healthcare is not the same thing as single payer. Single payer didnot have the votes in 2009 either. SO you take it a piece at a time. Healthcare is more accessible today than it was in 2008. If the D’s had retained control of Congress over the past few years thay might have made more improvements.
Ampersand
@catclub:
I’ve only been to a doctor once in the last fifteen years, but, no, I’m not quite that desperate yet.
Gin & Tonic
@Reggie Mantle: *Somebody* said no, somewhere, because the proposed line of attack *never materialized.* That is insufficient evidence for you?
E pur si muove.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Actually she has, from banking regulation to increased environmental legislation to improved family leave policies. but she’s not saying it in, I suspect, the emo way your friend is waiting for.
Bobby Thomson
@Miss Bianca: he’s fully complicit. He gives his standard red meat “corruption” stump speech, tacks on a half hearted request to support the ticket at the end, then feigns surpris at the results. Seriously, fuck that guy.
Ampersand
@D58826:
You’re absolutely right, but “slow, methodical progress” isn’t quite as sexy as a big, bombastic vision, when it comes to getting people to the polls. Please note, I’m not talking about promises that are impossible to fulfill, but rather, how things are presented via communication. I’m a political junkie, so I’m more than happy to simply vote for SC picks and our candidate being better than theirs. But average people need a little incentive, and insulting and guilt-tripping ain’t gonna do it.
J R in WV
Here is my though on Trump’s biggest potential flaw, and the reason he can’t release his IRS tax forms: his Russian (all foreign) loans would be spelled out on a special IRS form for that specific information.
That would be a blow to his independence. Beholden to foreign magnates. And even that wouldn’t be the worst information. The terms of those loans probably aren’t on the IRS forms. What if they are callable loans on demand of the lender? They could ruin Trump’s business empire with a certified letter. Total control over his every action at that point.
Who could vote for a man subject to that kind of foreign control?
This is edited and reposted from an inactive thread below.
Reggie Mantle
@Tom65:
Rules are made to be broken, though, right? Especially if you don’t like one of the candidates. That’s solid Democratic Principle.
Ampersand
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
All of that stuff is great, but this particular friend is hoping for jail time for certain Wall Street execs and the government doing everything it can to mess with offshoring, even if there’s only a limited amount that they can do. (And, quite frankly, I wish for the same things, though I know they’re likely impossible, given the politicians we have to work with.)
catclub
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: There is motivated listening, and motivated non-listening.
Tom Friedman lists all his pet things that the GOP should get on, but the Democrats have already been in favor of, and says we need a centrist party that thinks more like he does.
Miss Bianca
@Reggie Mantle: You mind showing us the paper trail for the “Bernie is an atheist, oh noes!!” campaign that started on the Democratic side? Apparently the fact that IT DIDN’T HAPPEN isn’t enough of a “no” for you?
catclub
@J R in WV: Given that the NYT is actually showing interest in it, this could actually be a very big deal.
Then again, remember Fitzmas!
kimp
@dmsilev: My understanding was, they did
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Ampersand: so your friend is a unicorn-hunter who’s going to vote for Trump?
Miss Bianca
@NR: In other words, “no, I can’t be bothered with coming up with REAL issues that I disagree with her on. It’s all about how I FEEL, man. I just FEEL that she can’t be trusted.”
Mnemosyne
@Ampersand:
Well, Elizabeth Warren is giving the keynote speech today — assuming the Bernistas don’t boo her off the stage — so she will almost certainly be talking about Hillary and Wall Street later today.
We have the structure for universal healthcare — it’s called Obamacare. We need to fix the shit that the Supreme Court decided to break (like the Medicaid expansion) and make some fixes overall, but the structure is sound and can easily be transitioned to a nonprofit system.
The war hawk stuff is a little harder sell, but I would ask, do they really think that Trump would not order a country bombed just because he got pissed off? Who’s better to be in charge, the former Secretary of State who knows all of the players and has participated in high-level negotiations, or the guy who thinks he can walk away from any “deal” with no consequences?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Mnemosyne: his stated policy on the Middle East is “bomb the shit out of them and take their oil”
unfortunately, I find Ampersand’s friend all too believable.
Fair Economist
@different-church-lady:
Yes, you are. Very prescient.
negative 1
@Miss Bianca: Why shouldn’t DWS have been made to resign? She was bad at her job from all I could see — the debates at horrific times, her midterm slaughter, and her attempting to silence the CFPB to help her cronies in the payday loan industry. I am open to understanding why she was good at her job, but so far her supporters have only been able to say ‘because I hate Sanders’ like it’s relevant at all. Clinton didn’t like her. Her campaign didn’t like her. So I’m curious — why is it incumbent on Sanders to “tackle this bullshit”? Maybe he thinks she’s bad at her job, too. Is she good at her job?
AnotherBruce
@Tom65: Oh you mean the e-mails sent from Russia? Fuck, it’s been explained a milion times that DWS shot down that little plot. Why are you not fucking concerned about Trump being a Russian agent? Do you miss the Soviet Union? Because Putin’s true aim is to go after the Baltics.
Fair Economist
@J R in WV:
I agree, this is the whopper. However, the two other issues that have been frequently raised are there too. First, he’s a lot less rich than he says he is and is currently losing money fast. He had to borrow another 300 million dollars in the past year. Second, his promised charitable contribution are mostly bogus. Basically, there are at least three ways releasing his taxes would doom his candidacy.
lethargytartare
@Mnemosyne:
and he still scores 70% on crucial votes in a swing state, and scores better than his counterpart. This is classic purity progressive BS. Apparently anything less than 100% according to an arbitrary set of issues is a sellout to these clowns.
This is why I have to deal with Mark Kirk.
Reggie Mantle
@negative 1:
They have to be for DWS because Bernie.
It’s all the justification they need to believe anything.
AnotherBruce
@Reggie Mantle: This is bullshit, plenty of credit was given to Bernie for supporting Hillary the way he did. So why are you not concerned about the fact that Bernie got booed for this support today? Again, you never seem to have any concerns about Trump.
muddy
@Betty Cracker: As always!
Reggie Mantle
@Miss Bianca:
Wonder if the shoe was on the other foot and the CEO and CFO of the Democratic party were discussing “hey, maybe we should weaken Hillary by bringing up Bill’s past with women, the drug dealing allegations and the murder of Vince Foster”, if the Clintonistas would be saying “hey, it’s okay, they never actually DID it…”
And, you know, as far as we know, Trump’s people have only SAID anti-semitic things, not actually DONE them.
Reggie Mantle
@AnotherBruce:
Haven’t read much of the latest threads, have you?
lethargytartare
@Reggie Mantle:
How would Bernie know? he’s and independent/socialist.
Reggie Mantle
@lethargytartare:
So it’s okay to disregard the DNC bylaws. They only apply to impartiality between REAL Democrats.
Sorry couldn’t find that exception either.
Ampersand
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
This particular friend is a low-info voter who has good intentions, but is very frustrated with waiting for glacially-slow change. Believe me, I’m trying to talk him into being more realistic.
@Mnemosyne:
All very good points, and a big part of the reason why I’m voting for Hillary. I’m very happy that the far left is being spotlighted on the first night. I’m also happy with the pick of Kaine; I think he’s underrated and versatile. I should point out that my friends like Kaine more than Hillary, even though they’re just learning about him. I linked them to the Miami rollout, and they thought it was great.
I’m hoping that we’ll continue to highlight Trump’s shady connections with Russia, and how much he’s flip-flopped, as well. He’s contradicted himself so many times…casual voters who heard soundbites about him being anti-free-trade or isolationist need to hear the other soundbites, the ones where he promises to cut taxes for the wealthy and go crazy bombing brown people overseas. (Make no mistake, being anti-free-trade and “isolationist” is a big selling point to many otherwise-moderate people. They’d never describe themselves as far-left, but they’re sick of corporations getting away with everything and sick of all these pointless wars.)
NR
@Miss Bianca: No, it’s actually “I don’t believe her deathbed conversion to progressive champion now that she needs us to become president when she was previously championing the TPP.”
But I don’t expect you to understand.
lethargytartare
@Reggie Mantle:
no one disregarded the bylaws. you’re lying.
Miss Bianca
@Reggie Mantle: You are so fucking full of shit. The fucking TPP is all that matters to you? Of course, white guy…why would you care about HRC’s consistent stands for health care expansion, women’s right to choose, family leave, education? But I wouldn’t expect you to understand. Ooh, those aren’t REAL, he-man lefty working-class issues, only trade agreements are, so ewwww, HRC’s “pivot” on trade issues is so icky and fake!
And you are a disgusting POS for equating the DNC emails to actual, fucking anti-Semitism from the Trump camp. Are you even paying attention to what dribbles out of your cake-hole? WASP privilege, you reek of it – even your fucking nym proclaims it.
danbodger
@AnotherBruce:
Really? Because I recall incredible snottiness, on the part of both the front page and comments, when Sanders endorsed Clinton.
Links available on request, or, you know, you can just look at the front page archives.
Miss Bianca
@negative 1: Taking a page from Ruckus’s book, why not take a look at everything the DNC and DNC chairman are suppposed to do, and then you get back to me with what exactly DWS was supposed to do differently, and then your short list of candidates that you think would do the job so much better than she did – who could be persuaded to take the job, and would prove to be acceptable to all the folks who are actually doing the electing.
WarMunchkin
You know, the Alderaanians ended up getting wiped out of existence.
Kay
@Reggie Mantle:
The establishment bylaws? That’s some revolution, let me tell you. Insurgents generally don’t get permission from the establishment.
Is Sanders still waffling and issuing weak, conditional statements? You may need a stronger leader if you’re planning on “locking her up”.
RealityBites
People drove all night and were starting to line up before daybreak to see Trump (and Pence) in Roanoke today. It makes me ill. The fire department was handing out water later in the day. The temperature is in the high 90’s. Please everyone GOTV!!! So many racist, fearful idiots out there. I’m leaving for work now. More of them waiting for me there. Stomach in knots. But outwardly – confident and calm. Can never show my anger or they win.
louc
@Miss Bianca: I know, right? I’m from South Florida so this was pretty head-blowing when I saw the headlines and commentariat. It’s a sad state of affairs to see how effective those kinds of strategies are.
Applejinx
@J R in WV: Damn, son. I bet that’s the reality of the situation.
Here’s hoping we can make enough of a noise about that stuff, that a sufficient number of Republicans will have their nerve fail at the last moment. That, or maybe there are American hackers who can get this information. Hell, if it’s a tax return, that’s a pretty major document to conceal. It’s one reason Bernie couldn’t have won and didn’t even win the primary: you can’t do that. I don’t remember Romney concealing his tax returns.
And I thought the worst he could be hiding was that he didn’t really have money at all. Good lord.
Ben Cisco
@Kenneth Kohl: Condolences on your loss.
My Truth Hurts
Fuck me? No John, fuck YOU.
Loviatar
@Mnemosyne: / @lethargytartare:
Just so you know, the rating site you’ve been directed to by NR -ProgressivePunch- is owned and run by Joshua Grossman, who also is the treasurer of the Progressive Kick a single-candidate super PAC in support of Bernie Sanders. Joshua is on the fringe end of the progressive scale so his categories and ratings may have a decided double rainbow, herb flavored slant on the world.
booda
Thank you John Cole! I’m a liberal, but sweet weeping Jesus on a motherfucking unicorn do I hate liberals sometimes. Some of us just can’t seem to understand how to play the long game. How many decades has the RNC been punching the evangelicals in the nuts? Do they whine and bitch and take their toys and go home? No. They say “Thank you sir may I have another?” and they keep fucking plugging away at it. They are knuckle-dragging, retrograde assholes but I admire their ability to keep their eyes on the prize. Then, when the whiny-ass liberals stay home in a snit during the midterms, guess who comes out to vote and slithers their way into every school board and state house in every godforsaken county in flyover country and beyond? Voila! hundreds of anti-choice bills pass in the blink of an eye. That’s how it’s done.
Uncle Cosmo
@LAC: The ‘Dope rents himself out to med schools for proctology practicums, & wonders why no one ever asks him to drop his trousers…
My Truth Hurts
The idea that not voting Hillary causes Trump to win only makes sense if you believe she’s entitled to win.
Uncle Cosmo
@Mah Troof Farts: That statement makes zero sense, & everyone who even glanced at it lost brain cells. Do the world a favor & delete your life, fuckhead.
Loviatar
@My Truth Hurts:
When the choice is between sane and insane, you better damm well believe that sane is entitled to win.
Gvg
Both Romney and Sanders got away without releasing their tax return and I don’t see that it hurt them. It’s now the new norm. I do not expect to see Trumps tax return and it pisses me off.
booda
@My Truth Hurts:
FIFY: “Arglebargle bippity boppity higgledy piggledy *fart*.”
No One You Know
Before the decision, the debate.
After the decision, the discipline of follow- through.
To debate after the decision makes dissension without affecting decision.
Rest, reconsider, and vote in November; and set your sights on 2018. Push left, a step at a time, and don’t be the general who could only fight the last war, or the politician who thought there was only one war.
(brought to you by a very active lunch conversation today)
Benny Ace
Imagine you’re a strict vegetarian, and you’re seated in a restaurant. On the menu are two (and only two) items: 1) Pork Chops and 2) Flesh Eating Bacteria with Ebola Sauce. If you try to order something that’s not on the menu, they’ll bring you Ebola. If you don’t order anything, they’ll still bring you the Ebola.
Order the damn pork chops.