Update at 10:50 PM EDT
Things seemed to have slowed way down in regards to information coming out of Turkey. The Turkish Prosecutor’s Office in Ankara has reported that there a 42 dead civilians, 17 of whom were police. Thirteen soldiers who tried to storm the Presidential Palace have been arrested.
Update at 8:55 PM EDT
Borzou Daragahi has highlighted a report from a journalist in Istanbul that what is being reported as explosions or bombings are, in fact, the sonic bombs from fighter jets. Since there are conflicting reports of Turkish fighters targeting both the coup side and the government side, it is unclear which side’s flying these jets, but it would be standard procedure for the military to put up a combat air patrol (CAP).
Additionally, The Guardian is reporting that General Zekai Aksakalli, Commander of Turkish Special Forces, has stated that “those who are attempting a coup will not succeed”. And that: “Our people should know that we will overcome this … We are in control of the situation.”
The EU has issued a formal statement supporting the Turkish government:
Turkey is a key partner for the European Union. The EU fully supports the democratically elected government, the institutions of the country and the rule of law. We call for a swift return to Turkey’s constitutional order. We continue to follow closely the developments and to coordinate with the 28 EU Member States.
Update at 8:44 PM EDT
Soldiers have, apparently, seized control of CNN Turk. Soldiers have also been reported as seizing the Hurriyet building.
Reuters is reporting that President Erdogan’s plane has landed at Istanbul Airport.
Update at 7:50 PM EDT
Reuters is reporting that the Turkish Parliament has been bombed. And there are reports of a large blast in Istanbul as well.
An F 16 has shot down a helicopter commandeered by those involved with the coup.
The AP is reporting that Turkey’s National Intelligence Spokesman has stated that the coup has been repelled.
And NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg has stated that:
I have just spoken to the Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu. I am following events in Turkey closely and with concern. I call for calm and restraint, and full respect for Turkey’s democratic institutions and its constitution. …Turkey is a valued Nato ally.
Finally, here’s the readout of the President’s call with Secretary Kerry on the events in Turkey:
The President spoke tonight by phone with Secretary of State John Kerry to discuss the events in Turkey. The President and Secretary agreed that all parties in Turkey should support the democratically-elected Government of Turkey, show restraint, and avoid any violence or bloodshed. The Secretary underscored that the State Department will continue to focus on the safety and security of U.S. citizens in Turkey. The President asked the Secretary to continue to keep him updated as the situation unfolds.
Update at 6:20 PM EDT:
According to Ece Temelkuran, a writer based in Istanbul, the mosques have begun repeating President Erdogan’s call for his supporters to take to the streets and use people power to rebuff the coup.
The military has, of course, instigated a curfew. And there have been reports of one helicopter gunship firing over Istanbul. It is at this point that things could turn very ugly very quickly. If the military is unable to establish and maintain order and the Erdogan government is unable to reestablish it, then we have all the possibilities of a classic insurgency. The challengers do not have the power to successfully complete their rebellion and the government does not have the power to successfully suppress the rebellion.
Reuters has just reported that the Turkish armor surrounding the Turkish Parliament have opened fire.
Update at 6:15 PM EDT:
Reuters is reporting, based on EU sources, that the coup appears to be substantial.
“It looks like a relatively well orchestrated coup by a substantial body of the military, not just a few colonels,” the source told Reuters.
“They’ve got control of the airports and are expecting control over the TV station imminently,” the source said, shortly before state television TRT broadcast a military declaration of martial law.
“They control several strategic points in Istanbul. Given the scale of the operation, it is difficult to imagine they will stop short of prevailing,” the source said.
The Guardian is reporting, sourced to NBC News, that:
The president (Erdogan) was speaking from an undisclosed location, and NBC News, citing an anonymous US military source, said that his plane had been refused landing rights in Istanbul.
Update at 6:03 PM EDT:
The Guardian is reporting that PM Erdogan is blaming the coup on the Gulen Movement. Gulen, a political rival of Erdogan’s, has been in exile in Pennsylvanian (this should have been a tell, Southeastern PA is where you go to plan a revolution…) and here’s some info on his movement.
Update at 5:45 PM EDT
The Guardian is reporting that Reuters has reported out, based on sources within Turkey, that the Turkish state broadcaster has gone off the air.
Update at 5:35 PM EDT
Hetav Rojan, who is affiliated with the SDU in Copenhagen, has reported on his twitter feed that PM Erdogan is headed to the airport. It is unclear what this actually means in terms of Erdogan’s efforts to regain and/or maintain control.
Borzou Daragahi, a reporter with Buzzfeed, is reporting that Erdogan is in a secure location.
So you can see just how disjointed the information is coming out – even from good sources!
Update at 5:25 PM EDT
The Guardian is reporting that the Turkish Armed Forces have released a statement that:
the freedom of Turkish citizens is guaranteed by what is referred to as a “peace council”, regardless of religion, race or language.
It says the Peace Council will not allow public order to be damaged
The Guardian is also reporting that “military forces have control of airports and strategic points in Istanbul”.
Update at 5:20 PM EDT
Here is the link to The Guardian‘s breaking news on the Turkey coup. Here’s the one for the BBC’s. Here’s the AP’s. And here’s the twitter feeds of a couple of good sources. Hetav Rojan and Borzou Daragahi.
For the Sixth time since the founding of the modern state of Turkey the Turkish military has mounted a coup and seized control of the government. The Turkish Armed Forces has released the following statement:
Turkish Armed Forces have taken over the administration of the country Turkish Armed Forces have completely taken over the administration of the country to reinstate constitutional order, human rights and freedoms, the rule of law and the general security that was damaged. All international agreements are still valid. We hope that all of our good relationships with all countries will continue.
The Turkish government has responded with:
This is an attack against Turkish democracy. A group within the Armed Forces has made an attempt to overthrow the democratically elected government outside the chain of command. The statement made on behalf of the Armed Forces wasn’t authorized by the military command. We urge the world to stand in solidarity with the Turkish people.
The Turkish military has traditionally been fiercely Kemalist and has seen itself as the defender of Mustafa Kemal’s legacy. Prime Minister Erdogan had tried to coup proof himself by replacing a number of military leaders, including having them investigated, charged with crimes, tried, convicted, and imprisoned.
As is always the case this is a quickly changing situation, information is likely to change over the next 24-48 hours. I’ll update with information as it becomes available.
scav
As always, thanks. You’ve rapidly become indispensable.
? Martin
No matter how many you may slay, you cannot kill your own successor
Peale
Yeah. Don’t know what to think about this. Erdogan was setting himself to be president for life, but Turkey isn’t Thailand, so I don’t know how much of a “whoever can say “they are in charge” is in charge and that is o.k. by us” stance the U.S. will take.
Major Major Major Major
Thanks, Adam.
I’m thinking this thread shall be my news source for Turkey, for now. Y’all are a good filter.
Cacti
While terror attacks are sensational, the destabilization of a NATO state and major regional military power is a seismic event.
Erdogan’s government could invoke Article 5.
? Martin
So, my understanding is that Turkey’s nukes are located at Incirlik which is a US/Turkey jointly run base. I wonder what the US view from that base is right now?
Matt McIrvin
Looking forward to the insistence that Hillary Clinton plotted this in 5… 4… 3…
Miss Bianca
Damn, Adam…it’s been one hell of a week, ain’t it?
Echoing the thanks. Also, because it bears repeating…pirate ships!
@Major Major Major Major: ach…have you heard from your hubby yet?
Cacti
Online chatter is suggesting that the coup plotters are Gulenists.
Explanation of Gulenism.
Jay C
@? Martin:
Apparently, the joint US/Turkish military base at Incirlik has put itself on a high alert status, when the nukes are being watched (VERY closely) by US troops.
Major Major Major Major
Erdogan sucks.
@Miss Bianca: Whoo!
ETA: @Miss Bianca: He’s asleep, one presumes.
Davis X. Machina
@Peale:
Whatever happened, remember, Hilary Clinton ordered Victoria Nuland to do it.
Invoking Article 5 in a civil conflict hasn’t happened the other two (at least) times this has happened since Turkey’s NATO accession.
Peale
@? Martin: Well we really don’t know who this is. Someone who says that they are the military, but for all we know could be friends of Russia cultivated destabilize NATO further or former aid workers from the Clinton Foundation sent by the Tri-lateral commission to destablilze another Middle Eastern State on behalf of Big Oil. Or Martians. I might support Maritians. Wondering aloud is fun.
Anoniminous
Unless the civilian government has some backing from some part of the Armed Forces in and around Istanbul and Ankara this is pretty much over. Erdogan deployed a whole bunch of the army, including most of the armor, along the border with the Kurdish part of Northern Syria (Rojava) and a goodly part of the rest is operating against the Kurds (PKK) in the mountains of eastern Turkey.
Miss Bianca
@Major Major Major Major: oh, right…it would be a number of hours ahead, wouldn’t it?
aimai
Weird that, I presume, the Kemalist armed forces are probably quite a bit more liberal than Erdogyan’s government.
Iowa Old Lady
I am imaging Trump’s campaign staff scrambling to brief him on Turkey before anyone gets near him with a mic.
sharl
Ahh excellent, the near-perfect* front-pager has arrived for this story.
*ain’t no such thing as ‘perfect’; it’s similar to one of those Laws of Thermodynamics and whatnot, e.g., the practical impossibility of reaching absolute zero…
James E Powell
@Davis X. Machina:
And at the same time, it is all Obama’s fault because he failed to invade, to bomb, to give bellicose speeches, or whatever.
CaseyL
Reading over the record of Turkish military takeovers, they seem to happen when the civilian government becomes too RW or too Islamist. It’s strange to think of a military force as the guarantor of civilian rights, rather than the people who are elected, but in Turkey that seems to be the case.
It’s doubly strange to think about that as the American Right becomes more radical, takes over a major political party, and has a better than snowball-in-hell chance of being elected in November.
Matt McIrvin
@aimai: Democratic legitimacy and liberalism did not necessarily align through Egypt’s recent coups and revolutions, either.
? Martin
@Peale: Reports are that it’s Gulen which is comforting in a less horrible outcome sense. If true, that means the coup was spearheaded from Pennsylvania. I don’t even know where our politics will run with that one.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Iowa Old Lady:
Trump probably thinks it’s the dinner menu.
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: Yes, yes it has.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: @Major Major Major Major: Thanks and you’re quite welcome. Not sure where he is, but we’ll keep good thoughts.
Peale
@James E Powell: Yep. If he knew about it in advance, he planned it. If he didn’t, we weren’t spying enough.
The GOP would probably do well to claim that this is a major victory for ISIS and paint them as proxies for Iran. Doesn’t matter if it is true or not. No one is going to go there and ask.
Major Major Major Major
@aimai: I believe the Turkish military “lets” them have a democracy as long as it stays secular, then pushes back/takes back the country as necessary.
@Matt McIrvin: Same thought I was having in response to aimai.
@Adam L Silverman: Tel Aviv, he’s fine, curious how he’s getting home though.
Hildebrand
@? Martin:
I imagine Benny 16 often has the thought creep into his head, though.
daves09
@Iowa Old Lady: He just wants to know pumpkin or minced pie.
Sloegin
AP: BREAKING: Secretary of State John Kerry says he hopes for stability, peace, continuity in Turkey as coup apparently under way.
They’re not condemning it, so they must be backing it eh?
Leto
@Jay C: It’s a joint effort between Turkish and American Security Forces (US Air Force). Turkish MPs will provide outer security in concert with USAF SF, while USAF SF will provide direct security for the asset. The base is probably in THREATCON (Threat Condition) Charlie atm.
daves09
That Boris Johnson doesn’t waste any time does he.
CaseyL
I have a really twisted sense of humor. Just wondered if the Pokemon Go mania had reached Ankara, and imagined the confusion of anyone playing it there tonight.
p.a.
“Who lost Turkey?”
Trollhattan
Is NATO obliged to go in and protect Turkey from Turkey? Do they bring gravy and stuffing?
I have no idea how this works, only hope it doesn’t turn out like Egypt. Hey Turkish military: don’t do it like that.
Martha from Augusta
@CaseyL: I worked with a bunch of Turkish military officers in the late ’90’s and it was always an interesting situation when democracy’s relationship with human rights came up. I think it’s easier to view the Turkish military’s actual interest not as “human rights and freedoms” and “the rule of law” but as upholding “secularism,” specifically the Ataturkian secularism that gives a particular set of rights and freedoms that can be exercised in particular and specific ways, as long as you’re not no steenkin’ Kurd.
Miss Bianca
@CaseyL:
This has always struck me forcibly, as well. Turkey’s approach to Islam has always struck me as bit more…relaxed, shall we say…than the Arabic (specifically Wahhabist) model, so I always wonder aboutwhat would drive its governments into more authoritarian or fundamentalist directions.
Ian
@James E Powell:
It’s three magic words. I won’t say them either, because I do not want to bring about the apocalypse, or whatever it’s suppose to do. But it will be yuge.
My only personal hope is that the Turks and the Kurds can find a decent solution to their conflict. Peace seemed so close in 2013, now? Adam would you share more information on the Turkish/Kurdish conflict and/or the Turkish/ISIL conflict?
sparrow
@aimai: They are secularists, but, they are also nationalists, and keep trying to overthrow democratically elected leaders. So, yet another conflict where both sides are less than admirable.
CaseyL
@daves09: Brits are totally thrilled* he’s the head of the FO right now, let me tell ya.
*Not really. Really, not.
Miss Bianca
hmmm…comment just got eated. wonder why? Was it mentioning wahhabism?
patroclus
Erdogan is out of the country, so apparently safe but not capable of ordering a counter-attack.
Emma
Adam, I have been meaning to ask, and this is as good time as any. Do you have any reading recommendations for a good overview of the intra-Islamic dispute(s) as it’s/they’re playing out in the modern world? I try to keep up with the news and did some basic readings way back in college (me and my Diplodocus neighbors) but I’m always feeling that I’m trying to connect semi-visible dots.
Anyone else please jump in.
(edited for clarity)
Jay C
@Sloegin:
Most likely, they’re appalled by it, but there’s not a lot the US can do.
Not that that will stop the “Blame Obama” trolls:
Feathers
@? Martin: As I saw in Chris Hayes’ twitter feed: Would certainly be the first NATO president overthrown with funding from the US charter school system. Don’t know anything about this, but am fascinated.
Increasingly believing the theory that David Bowie was holding the planet together.
Matt McIrvin
@? Martin: Holy crap, the leader of the movement lives in the Poconos?
Emma
@Sloegin: They’re probably trying to figure out what in heck is going on!
sharl
~
This source is new to me – it was recommended by someone I do follow – so caveat lector and all that.
Miss Bianca
@Emma: Ha! Good question – this is an area where I feel like the more reading I’ve done, the more confused I end up…
Matt McIrvin
Eric S. Raymond was cheering for the coup on G+, which does not make me feel great about it.
Emma
@Miss Bianca: Same here. And what’s the use of an expert if you don’t use him? :D
RandomMonster
Hillary’s emails caused all of this.
SiubhanDuinne
If a sound track to this thread is wanted, here’s the “Attack March” performed by the Ottoman Janissaries. (I have an odd affection for Turkish marches.)
mike in dc
Uh, wouldn’t getting the nukes off the air base be kind of a high priority?
Archon
@sharl:
A lot of successful military coups throughout history have been led by junior officers.
hellslittlestangel
@Iowa Old Lady: He’ll soon be tweeting a picture of himself eating a club sandwich. “I love turkey!”
Adam L Silverman
@aimai: They are vehemently secular. Kemal, for all other good or bad things he did, did one very good one. He ensured that the military would be secular and it would see itself as the guardians of modern, secular Turkey and Kemalism. They have taken that to heart and every time the military has stepped in, they have done it to reset Turkey onto a secular, liberal democratic path so far. Its is somewhat strange from the American point of view in regards to our view of Civ-Mil relations.
raven
@mike in dc: Secure the in place is way better.
? Martin
Reports that Erdogan has request asylum in Germany.
rikyrah
I got one question:
WHO is in control of the Nukes?
The rest of it will sort itself out.
max
@Cacti: While terror attacks are sensational, the destabilization of a NATO state and major regional military power is a seismic event.
Unfortunately, that’s been going on for three years now, which is probably why we have a coup now.
Erdogan’s government could invoke Article 5.
I’m not sure the US shouldn’t veto.
max
[‘Given that some element of Erdogan’s government seems to have been at war with NATO countries for some time now.’]
raven
Command and Control: Nuclear Weapons, the Damascus Accident, and the Illusion of Safety
Great book.
” In addition many bombs and missiles were woefully unsecured during the early parts of the Cold War, especially in NATO countries where they were often guarded by lone guards toting rifles. It took until the 60s when secure locks were finally installed on many of these devices. Thankfully none of these lapses let to the detonation of an actual nuclear core (and this is a record the country should be proud of), but the key message that Schlosser sends is that the gap between what was and what could have been was frighteningly thin. As officials themselves admitted, catastrophic accidents were prevented by dumb luck as much as anything else.”
amygdala
Thanks, Adam. Definitely needed the reminder that we have our ridiculous, endless general election campaigns, and Turkey has its episodic coups.
US State Department says Ataturk is closed. Maybe there’s one last flight to who knows where for Erdogan?
mike in dc
A full blown civil war in Turkey probably would necessitate NATO intervention, considering it would create appalling new opportunities for ISIS among others.
sharl
More from Turkey native Zeynep Tufekci, stuck at an airport on Turkey’s Mediterranean coast.
Miss Bianca
@Emma: Mark you, this is *with* stuff that Adam has recommended – but I am a bear of very little brain, so YMMV!
On a more serious note, what I discovered is that the situation strikes me as so complex and so riven with fast-changing alliances and disalliances, that the only practical effect it’s had on my thinking is that to reduce me to gibbering every time some one of my acquaintance starts shooting off his/her mouth about what we need to do (or not do) in Syria, Libya, Iraq, etc….so, just enough to make me squeal, “you’re not seeing the whole picture!” but not enough, alas, to make *me* see the whole picture – or be able to explain it!
? Martin
@rikyrah:
The US military should be. Incirlik is a jointly run US/Turkish base where the nukes operate out of. I’m guessing the Turkish military there were not included in this plan.
patroclus
Generally speaking, the military in Turkey, depending on what faction of the military we’re talking about, is the most liberal democratic oriented of all the various political players there, so this may turn out like the al-Sisi coup in Egypt – while we are nominally opposed, the result may turn out to be in the U.S.’s interest. Erdogan has been opposed by virtually every Turk I’ve ever met or known and there have been a lot of complaints that he hasn’t taken ISIL very seriously. A lot will depend on whether they can stabilize the situation quickly and whether the Erdogan forces can re-group and do anything besides mere protest. We’ll see, but Adam summarizes the historic situation correctly – ever since Attaturk, the military has viewed themselves as the guarantor of democracy, freedom and stability. If that’s still the dominant faction, they’ll be looking to re-assure the U.S. that the alliance is stronger than ever and that they were merely removing a President who was going too far in authoritarian ways.
Archon
When I saw an article six months ago about the 1,150 room “Presidential complex” Erdogan built, the kind of Palace that would make a 16th century Sultan blush I remember thinking to myself, “people in Turkey are cool with this???”.
I’m sure they are many, many more factors for the coup but I’m sure people couldn’t be happy with that Palace and what Erdogan was signifying by having the gall to build it.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: Through Frankfurt. Or London. Or Toronto.
scav
@Miss Bianca: First sign of actual learning is often become very clear about all the things you don’t actually know. (Rather like the first sign of a deep clean seems always to be disemboweling the closets and making a real mess.)
Lizzy L
A friend of mine has posted a video on FB — evidently tweeted from Turkey — showing a helicopter gunship firing on an urban street, I assume Istanbul. CRAP.
eclare
Thank you for all the hard work you do, Adam.
Adam L Silverman
@Trollhattan: Usually it stays out of it until its over. NATO Forces in Turkey will secure their facilities, material, and personnel in the interim.
patroclus
Erdogan attempting to fly back but refused landing rights (according to the Guardian).. he broadcast that “we will overcome this” and called for immediate demonstrations and protests but the military has imposed a curfew.
? Martin
@Lizzy L: I haven’t seen gunship video in Istanbul, only from Ankara (multiple video from there). Apparently quite a bit of gunfire/explosions there. Istanbul is locked down and I’ve heard some reports of tear gas, but no gunfire. Istanbul sounds relatively safe.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: Well I know how flying works ?
raven
@Adam L Silverman: Have you read Command and Control or is that light stuff for folks in your orbit?
Leto
@mike in dc: No. It takes international coordination to move any asset. It’s not a simple, lets get these out of here! In good times, it takes about 6 months of coordination to perform. In times like this, the safest place they can be is where the currently are: WSA, Weapon Storage Area. If you’d want more technical information, read this: Weapons Storage and Security System (WS3)
@? Martin: There is no “should”. Turkey does not control the assets. They simply provide outside security. Full 100% control still rests with us.
Jeffro
Adam why would you update us when everyone on Facebook is going to be a self-proclaimed expert on Turkey within negative 20 minutes?
Also, can we have a “write Trump’s first Turkey tweet” contest, or did he already send off a well-informed missive that I missed?
Emma
@Miss Bianca: The same thing happens to me, but I’ve discovered that at least my inability to explain is tied to the impression I get from my listeners that they want a simple answer and will accept no other. I get bogged down trying to simplify facts for the audience. And as you well know, a lot of things aren’t “simplifyable”!
eric
after 80 turkey posts, i am tired. taking a nap
Adam L Silverman
@Emma: I need a bit more info. Do you want stuff on just what’s going on now, or do you want historical stuff?
JC
Well. Let’s look at the state of Europe.
a. England has Brexit, should be leaving the E.U soon.
b. Many economies of E.U, are still in the toilet, with no relief in sight. (Spain, possibly Italy).
c. France has dealt with how many mass attacks, in the last year?
This, in addition to, we have someone as unreliable and proven unethical as Donald Trump, just possibly one election away from being POTUS. (Very doubtful, but only a step away.)
Not to mention the continuing bloody chaos, in the middle east.
I’m concerned, regarding the whole world, at the moment.
Leto
@raven: I’ve read it and it was f%cking frightening. Safety was basically a third/fourth thought in the design process. I technically understand why, but FFS.
Iowa Old Lady
I suspect Trump’s ignorance is of a different kind than, say, Steve King’s. Trump has had a rich man’s freedom to travel overseas for work or pleasure. I admit I don’t know how much of that he’s done. But he may have the knowledge or foreign lands that rich Americans get on a cruise ship. They’re there, but cushioned from anything real.
Emma
@Adam L Silverman: I’d like some of each, but lighter on the historical. The current goings on — well, there’s a lot of opinion and I can’t always tell good from bad, so a few good recs would be great.
hellslittlestangel
@eric: There’s a lot of L-Tryptophane in turkey.
CaseyL
NPR ran a story a few days ago about new anti-terrorist policies Erdogan put in place, and how that was interesting considering his previous very lukewarm response to terrorism.
The story strongly indicated his newfound passion for anti-terrorism had mostly to do with Kurdish groups launching attacks on Turkey (an old and ongoing enmity there).
I don’t know whether the new policies had anything to do with hopes to placate the military. Though it seems to me, if Erdogan thought the military was getting ready to rise against him, would he have gone off on vacation? Either he had no idea what was about to happen, or he knew damned well what was about to happen and wanted to be sure he was safely out of town when it did.
chopper
@Cacti:
erdogan is saying it’s gulenists. dunno, cause erdogan is only interested in holding onto his own power and will say anything.
RSR
via a great twitter resource for news from the other side of the world, whom I discovered in the aftermath of the Japan earthquake, https://twitter.com/W7VOA/with_replies
https://twitter.com/DiegoCupolo/status/754060912936583168
Adam L Silverman
@raven: I’m not following?
Miss Bianca
@Emma: Great insight – it’s sobering to realize that I’m coming to expect the same depth of engagement in the issues of the day from my friends and family IRL that I get from an anonymous online community! :)
Also, if I did not have a kitten perched on my shoulder, eating my hair and purring in my ear, I’d be feeling *much* bleaker about the state of the world right now…
@eric: I see what you did there…!
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: I almost wrote, face away from the wind, running start, arms out, attempt to achieve lift…//
max
@CaseyL: Reading over the record of Turkish military takeovers, they seem to happen when the civilian government becomes too RW or too Islamist. It’s strange to think of a military force as the guarantor of civilian rights, rather than the people who are elected, but in Turkey that seems to be the case.
A timocracy: ‘Every once in awhile the army comes out of its barracks and hangs all the politicians and then they turn the government back over to the politicians, at least eventually.’
That’s pretty much the Kemalist philosophy.
Erdogan tried to fix this with purges and show trials of top army command, which is why he’s saying that the the army is revolting against its command – ‘the scum in the ranks are rebelling against the lickspittles I appointed’.
I very much doubt this has anything to do with Guellinists, but I’m sure they’re fine with it.
max
[‘Root for injuries.’]
Lizzy L
@? Martin: Thanks. Not that I’m happy about gunships firing in Ankara…
sharl
@chopper: Yeah, definitely mixed messages coming out of this Fog of Confusion on that aspect of the strife:
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: Puh-leeze. Everybody knows you’re supposed to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
Mike J
@sharl:
Several times I’ve commented that Adam is a real asymptote. Or something like that anyway.
Adam L Silverman
@JC: Three, France has had three.
Adam L Silverman
@Mike J: I may or may not resemble that remark.
Mike in NC
After Obama was elected it apparently became very fashionable on wingnut blogs to muse about how much this country needed a military coup to set things right. Good times.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: Remember, you’re only approaching a resemblance.
Felonius Monk
Can we find a way to blame Trump for this mess?
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: Fine, I may or may not approach a resemblance of that remark. Happy?
hovercraft
Why is fate conspiring against Trump, now even if he has his presser tomorrow, the lead stories will be terror and a nuclear armed NATO ally undergoing a coup.
debbie
At least George W. Bush hasn’t reemerged and jumped in to congratulate the military’s coup a la Venezuela.
debbie
@hovercraft:
I know. You’d think with all of his excellentness, the self-described “commonsense” Conservative could control world events with a single stubby finger.
rikyrah
HillaryDoesntWhine @BJHare
Pence effectively neutralizes Trump attack on HRC for Iraq vote. He was chief congressional Iraq War propagandist
patroclus
The curfew is not working – protestors have been pouring into the streets, but no one can really tell if they’re heeding Erdogan’s call or if they’re supporting the coup. They’ve reached the airport – which has been closed. In Ankara, at least, they appear to be angry at the coup – in Instanbul, it’s unclear.
Squid696
If Russia invaded Turkey from the rear…..
Jay C
@hovercraft:
Just lucky?
No doubt, The Donald will find some way to blame President Obama or Hillary Clinton for the troubles in Turkey – in a nasty tweet, probably.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: Err…I may be approaching happiness. Cautiously. Very cautiously. Or not.
rikyrah
Fox News commentator who feds say faked a CIA career sentenced to 33 months in prison
By Rachel Weiner July 15 at 2:22 PM
Wayne Simmons was a professional football player, a drug trafficker, a nightclub doorman, a Fox News guest analyst and an intelligence adviser in Afghanistan.
What Simmons , 62, was not, according to all available evidence, was a CIA agent. In federal court in Virginia Friday, just before he was sentenced to 33 months in prison, he apologized for lying about his security clearance, his criminal history and his finances.
“There is not a day that goes by that I am not haunted by these mistakes,” Simmons said. “I stand before you a shameful and broken man.”
Major Major Major Major
@Miss Bianca: Don’t go too fast, you’ll spook it.
CaseyL
Ah! The disinformation machine is now up and running: a photo was posted on Twitter claiming to be of thousands of people filling a public square to protest the military coup. Another tweet in response noted the photo was from a rally in Morocco last November.
JGabriel
@Cacti:
Maybe, but since Gulenism tends towards moderation and separation of church and state, I’m not sure the distinction between Gulenism and Kemalism is meaningful in the context of a Turkish coup. I mean, Kemalists amd Gulenists would have largely identical goals, and I suspect there’s a lot of overlap in people subscribing to each of those philosophies.
MomSense
@scav:
Absolutely!
Can we start a vicious jackals think tank?
Adam L Silverman
@rikyrah: The Army program he defrauded was the first one I was involved with. I was deployed in Iraq at the time. He was hired to be a team leader, based on his false/fraudulent claims about CIA experience, classification, etc. Got paid real good to go through training for almost six months as a contractor and quit right before being converted to a term appointment civil servant and deploying. The Prime Contractor on that program is, I believe, still being investigated. This stuff really pisses me off.
Miss Bianca
@rikyrah: I saw something about this earlier. Couldn’t happen to a nice guy.
@Adam L Silverman: Seriously? How the hell does something like that even happen? I would think the Army’s vetting process would be pretty thorough – surely someone would have been checking his credentials?
ETA: Or was it a private contractor who hired him?
Baud
Hey, Turkish military, looking for a new secular president? Better call Baud!
Baud
Not a Brian Williams fan.
joes527
The madam secretary writing staff just chucked their outline for season 3 into the bin.
MomSense
@Baud:
Somehow I don’t think Turkey would want me to chair their national arts programs. Guess you and Watergirl will have to leave me behind.
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: The Army left it up to the contractors. When I got back from Iraq, the PM, a retired colonel on a term civil service appointment, put me in charge of vetting personnel packets. We were informed by the Contracting Officer (COR) that I was to stop reviewing, vetting, and providing recommendations on prospective personnel as I was interfering in the contractors right to make money off of its properly awarded Federal contract. It didn’t help that I was a contractor supplied to the program by the Prime Contractor…
The bottom line is the contractors are usually relied upon to do the vetting. Usually they have no idea what they’re looking at and/or no incentive to do so. And the military guys that then get the assignees don’t really know how to read an academic CV or civilian resume. So you can get a lot of frauds. This ultimately causes a lot of hard feelings, which makes it very difficult for the rest of us who are legit and trying to do this stuff right to actually maintain the programs and keep them going. Both of the Army’s two initiatives on this are now
closed.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: He’ll Do What You Say™!
@MomSense: I can still be the head librarian, right?
Prescott Cactus
Trump has announced that since the military has seized Turkey he’ll be having ham for Thanksgiving.
guachi
Not a fan of the anti-democratic Turkish military nor Erdogan. Can we kick the Turks out of NATO already? It gives them legitimacy their country doesn’t deserve.
Adam L Silverman
@Prescott Cactus: He’s going to Scott Walker’s house?
http://theweek.com/speedreads/566387/what-hot-ham-why-scott-walker-tweeting-about
Baud
@MomSense: Turkey needs you to chair their arts program.
Adam L Silverman
@guachi: No.
Emma
@guachi: No. We can’t. SASQ.
Origuy
@daves09:
Boris is part Turkish; his great-grandfather was Ali Kemal, who was in the government before the Ottoman Empire fell.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: @Emma: What are they, an important bulwark against Russia, a secular force in a sectarian region, a strategically important port and trading partner, and a source of cheap German labor, or something?
Corner Stone
@guachi:
I’d prefer not to right now, if that’s all the same to you.
ThresherK
@rikyrah: Does Judith Miller have the scoop?
Major Major Major Major
@Corner Stone: OK, Bartleby.
Corner Stone
@Miss Bianca:
Maybe the system thought you were M_C, back from the daid.
patroclus
Multiple reports of tanks firing and shots fired on the Istanbul bridges; arguments between army and protestors; policemen arresting army personnel – basically chaos at present.
Applejinx
@Miss Bianca:
That pleases me to hear :)
I have been laying preparations for an industrial-strength yard renovation next week. I uncovered termites in my wood pile, but it started as kiln dried. There were teeny little leak-through areas in the multiple tarps. So basically I had a troupe of termites desperately trying to live off about three logs, with all the rest as good as polystyrene to them. Pretty funny, and glad I got the fancy wood (probably 98% or more was untouchable by termite, even when next to a wetted log).
Major Major Major Major
@Miss Bianca: You want bleak, you should see the chapter I’m working on now.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: Fuck. I just read that WaPo article and W.T.Everlovin’.F.
“Interfering in the contractor’s right to make money?”! What, by making sure that oh, say, unquaified criminal nut cases don’t get hired to do sensitive military operational work? What about the US Government’s – to say nothing of the Taxpayer Citizen’s – right not to be defrauded?
I look at GWB dancing like an idiot on that Dallas stage and I see the chimpanzee whose administration made this kind of military profiteering mindset not only possible, but practically mandatory. But that’s an insult to chimpanzees. It makes me want to punch a wall, but I’m too much of a weenie to actually do it.
Corner Stone
For fuck’s sake. Why do we not have a translator in place by now?! It’s four fucking hours later, FFS.
Chris
@guachi:
Lord no, as much as I understand the sentiment. Turkey’s our buffer against the entire mess of a region south of there. You don’t want to just abandon it right now.
Miss Bianca
@Major Major Major Major: All of the above. *And* something!
@Corner Stone: I’m almost sure I didn’t mention pygmy skinks…
TriassicSands
@Archon:
What do you think the White House will look like when Sultan Trump gets finished “tastefully” redecorating it?
Yet another reason why Trump must be defeated.
MomSense
@Major Major Major Major:
Of course!
@Baud:
I think I’d be on the fast track for exile. The good news is that all my Turkish friends are currently in London so it could work out well for me. I could do the artsy exile scene.
Major Major Major Major
@MomSense:
Prescott Cactus
@Major Major Major Major: Got Book ! ! ! Thanks !!!
@Major Major Major Major:
Like Cormac McCarthy, “the Road” bleak ?
Jeffro
@Mike in NC:
I’m sure there’s already a wing nut talking head, probably on CNN, espousing that very view.
Hey in other news, my right-leaning dad took all of 10 minutes to let me know that the coup in Turkey was due to…wait for it, wait for it…the “usual advice from Valerie Jarrett”. Um, what? Had no idea Ms. Jarrett was in charge of our Turkey policy but then again I don’t watch a lot (i.e., any) of Fox News.
Oh also, even though Obama lets Jarrett dictate policy and is all-powerful, supposedly Obama is a tyrant as well.
Odd tyrant, that.
MomSense
@Major Major Major Major:
Wow that song takes me back – waay back.
eclare
@Jeffro: How the hell do you connect those dots? Not interested enough to torture myself by watching Fox, just curious.
burnspbesq
@eric
All the pie will be gone by the time you awaken.
guachi
@Chris:
The United States will stand idly by while the coup takes over. Shrug our shoulders at undemocratic actions because of the reasons you state. Because Turkey is an “ally” we’ll just do nothing about a coup. In NATO.
That’s just crazy. A country that unstable is not fit to be a NATO ally with nuclear weapons in the country.
Raven
Major Major Major Major
@Prescott Cactus: No, thank you!
It’s not that bleak, just reality-check bleak. There’s a continuum between The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy and The Road when you’re writing about apocalyptic events, I’m definitely hewing to the HHGTTG side of that.
@MomSense: ?
Chris
@Jeffro:
It’s mainstream opinion in the right wing blogosphere that Pahlavi, Pinochet, the Venezuelan losers from 2002, etc were all good people who did the right thing by removing someone they view as unacceptable. That so many of them transitioned to wistfully hoping for the same over here isn’t much of a surprise.
There are many good and bad things to be said about the U.S. military, but I am very thankful that they don’t go for this brand of “well, I obey the elected government, but only unless I really don’t like them, otherwise, I become the government.” Probably owe a lot to General-turned-President Washington for setting the example there.
Trollhattan
Uh boy.
ETA, this is the first time I’ve seen the Beeb website have to cut from current “Live” coverage of one story to jump to another. Turkey kicked Nice, France off the page.
MomSense
@Trollhattan:
That doesn’t sound good at all.
Matt McIrvin
@Mike in NC: Thomas Sowell was fantasizing about a military coup in print a few years back.
eclare
@Trollhattan: I responded to you downstairs, boring is so underrated.
Emma
@Jeffro: It’s part Obama but part of the odd American belief, present both on the right and the left, that nothing ever happens in the world without either American involvement or American influence. Not in every individual, but enough to make it annoying.
Chris
@Trollhattan:
Army on one side and air force on the other?
Ay, madre de dios.
hovercraft
@Jeffro:
The fact that she is very close to both Obamas and is supposedly very powerful in our government means that to many on the right she is one of the people who pull all the strings behind the scenes. Remember Obama is an empty suit who has to read off of a teleprompter written by his controllers.
patroclus
It appears that the coup is failing. It isn’t clear, of course, but it seems that the protestors have re-taken the airport and other locations and that the army troops have stopped firing and are beginning to withdraw at least in some places. Erdogan’s call for taking the streets (joined by others) has apparently worked; no Turkish political parties have supported the coup and there is a split between military factions and the national police. It may take awhile calm down and some coup plotters may still pursue it, but it doesn’t look like they’ve gained enough support to be successful.
Obama just released a statement supporting the democratically elected government. They support Erdogan; not the coup plotters.
Jeffro
@hovercraft:
I keep trying to remember that, but my common sense/own eyes/own ears keep getting in the way ;)
No seriously, I get how the right-wing does projection here and would see Jarrett as some sort of Cheney-esque figure…but puppets tend to stare into the headlights, at least on some occasion. Obama has yet to be caught in those headlights, not once, and I think that almost scares them even more.
Adam L Silverman
@guachi: Like Great Britain.
Rob
Reports of Parliament being bombed and a loud explosion heard in Istanbul, via @reportedly’s Turkey (journalist) list (on Twitter).
Also the coup has faltered (eta) as many of you have pointed out.
Corner Stone
@Miss Bianca: You didn’t say anything about cudlips, either. But the software is not completely refined yet, also too.
Steeplejack (phone)
As usual, France 24 has good coverage. Talking to correspondents in Ankara and Istanbul via phone.
patroclus
The coup may be over in Instanbul, but it appears to be still going on in Ankara, where the coup plotters still control state TV and the protest crowd is not so large. The air force is now firing on the army coup plotters in Ankara; multiple police (who are with Erdogan) have been killed in Ankara. A bomb has apparently hit the Turkish parliament in Ankara. Momentum is clearly with Erdogan across the country, but a pocket of coup plotters in Ankara are still holding out, which makes the situation still dicey although Hashtag/FailedCoup appears to be the predictable ultimate result.
The rumor is that Erdogan is going to make a triumphant airport return to the Istanbul Airport.
Prescott Cactus
Trump: “Will do all possible to restore elected officials to power!”
“Trump Towers Grill makes the the best Turkey Clubs and all Turks will be given one to protect themselves”
PaulWartenberg2016
You know, that never really impresses the hell out of the military when you treat them like that. Shoulda tried a little more “soft power” compromising, Erdogan…
Rob
Mehmet Solmaz @MhmtSlmz 44s45 seconds ago
#BREAKING !!! Fighter jet that bombed the Parliament has reportedly been downed.
eta: I don’t know how true this statement is, so perhaps I should not have posted it.
sharl
@Mike J:
~
Hahaha.
Welp…I reckon there’s a little bit of asymptote in all of us…
{…Lingers to squint contemplatively toward the horizon for a bit, then snaps suspenders, drools on shirt, and ambles off…}
Prescott Cactus
@Adam L Silverman: Those midnight calls were to Scottie Walker. All the kids convinced him against Trump/Walker as the ticket. . .
Raven Onthill
If the coup loses, I fear that Turkey will turn into an Islamic state. Dr. Silverman, is this a well-founded fear?
Brachiator
@Adam L Silverman: I have been away from computers and media all day. Thanks very much for this update. I had no idea that this coup attempt was going on.
Adam L Silverman
@Brachiator: Today’s chaos brought to you by Flour! The flouriest flour for all your flour needs!
Dave L
Adam, thanks for all of this. I’d been following news on other sites, but am here to get your reaction to some aspects of this coup that strike me as very odd.
Most commentary in the US seems to take no note of the wholesale changes in the Turkish military during Erdogan’s time in power – 15 years now. There was a wholesale purge of the upper ranks five or six years ago. I remember talking to the son of a Turkish officer shortly after that who said that practically every career officer he knew was in jail or had passed through it.
The earlier ban on religious Turks becoming army officers ended early on in the Erdogan era, more than 10 years ago. I’ve assumed that the ranks are now filling up with enthusiastic religious soldiers.
And yet now, out of the blue, we suddenly have a coup carried out, apparently by a faction of junior officers? It makes no sense to me.
I really dislike the conspiracy theory worldview, and yet I find myself being very suspicious of this alleged coup. And now it seems to be falling apart very quickly – wait for Erdogan to call a snap election to give himself the super-majority he needs to amend the constitution. Or just declare a state of emergency and rule by decree, with another wave of mass arrests to follow.
Adam L Silverman
@Dave L: I need to come back to your question later, I have to go do some stuff – such as have dinner. I will answer this later, I promise.
JGabriel
This is interesting – a couple of on the ground reactions from Turks in the NY Times:
raven
@Adam L Silverman: I was just thinking that maybe the book was more for “lay” consumption and your knowledge was at a higher level.
Dave L
@Adam L Silverman: Thanks, Adam. I’d rather have your considered response anyway.
Rob
Multiple reports that a putschist helicopter landed on the grounds of CNN Turk (& Dogan media group/Hurriyet?) , with soldiers in the building
JamesInTurkey.com @jamesinturkey 7m7 minutes ago
Astonishing scenes on CNN Turk, where presenter says soldiers landed copter in grounds and entered their building.
Adam L Silverman
@Dave L: Belay that dinner, despite reports to the contrary, is not ready…
I want to just start with that I know a decent amount about Turkey and its history, but I’m not a Turkey specialist. I know far more about many of the other countries in the Levant, Middle East, Central Asia, and the trans-Caucasus. That said what we’re seeing, and its not clear and may not be for days, is that the elements of the Turkish military that Erdogan did not replace – whether he didn’t think they posed a threat to him and his government or they weren’t senior enough to worry about or they simply were good at masking their actual views – have revolted and undertaken a coup to restore what they think is the correct Kemalist approach to Turkish government and governance.
Erdogan is an interesting character. When he first started making constitutional reforms he seemed to be acting in earnest and the reforms were clearly overdue, necessary, and done through the democratic process. This is everything you could want regardless of whether the party in power was secular or religious. At this time many, including myself, argued that Erdogan and his political party were an exemplar of how Islam and politics could coexist within a democratic system.
As we’ve seen over the past several years, however, Erdogan did not stop there. Being perpetually kept on hold by the EU in regard to membership is, I think, a contributing factor to Erdogan deciding to look East and South rather than West to Europe. Regardless of why he did so and began to play the regional game in the attempt to make Turkey the regional hegemon. In that contest, vying with Saudi Arabia and Iran, Turkey contributed to the destabilization of Syria. The drought and the famine and Assad’s over bearing responses are more primary drivers, but the proxy fight between Turkey, Saudi, and Iran for hegemony made things worse.
At the same time within Turkey Erdogan has been effectively manipulating more religious (read conservative Muslim) and more rural (meaning more socially traditional and conservative) Turkish support to bolster his position and his party’s at the expense of the more secular Turks who are far more attached to the Kemalist vision of a secular Turkey. When you combine the pressure that’s resulted from Erdogan not sealing his border to IS because he’s, based on news media reporting, facilitating IS’s sale of the petroleum resources they’ve seized, which has also allowed for infiltration and several major terrorist attacks with the ongoing Kurdish problem and the secular/religious and urban/rural divides the conditions are set for this type of action to happen.
As for why now? I don’t know. We’re going to have to wait and see who is reported to have been behind the coup and for further details for their planning to come out.
Rob
Hurriyet too
Emre KIZILKAYA @ekizilkaya 13m13 minutes ago
A group of putschist soldiers are now raiding our newspaper. They are coming to my floor
Adam L Silverman
@raven: I wasn’t immediately tracking on it as a book. I haven’t looked at it in a while. This is the Schlosser book, right?
https://www.amazon.com/Command-Control-Damascus-Accident-Illusion/dp/0143125788
raven
@Adam L Silverman: He had nothing to do with denying the 4th ID a route into Northern Iraq at the start of the clusterfuck?
Rob
Adam, thank you for putting up this post, and for your 8:41 pm thoughts.
raven
@Adam L Silverman: Indeed.
amk
@Adam L Silverman:
Didn’t erdogan also stage a mini-coup to oust his own popular PM? Not to speak of his mega palace to feed his own ego. Typical overreach by a power hungry pol under the guise of religion.
Davis X. Machina
Has there been a Victoria Nuland sighting?
Adam L Silverman
@raven: He did. Turkey made it clear that we couldn’t enter Iraq for the start of OIF from Turkey.
Adam L Silverman
@raven: Okay, sorry been a bit busy this afternoon! I haven’t looked at it in forever, so I’ll need to go back and give it a read.
Adam L Silverman
@amk: He’s a bit over the top. To say the least.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: Wow. Does that mean that this coup is more an urban-based phenomenon, with no deep roots in the country? I heard – which surprised me – that Istanbul had swung away from it, and Ankara more towards.
raven
@Adam L Silverman: Yea, I went out for a couple of hours to eat and you were still here! They are discussing face cream on the next thread so I gotta stick here!
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: Possibly. It doesn’t appear that any of the opposition parties, the Special Forces, the Intel Services, or the Police Forces are backing the coup. So it doesn’t seem to be as broad based as some initially reported.
Rob
For up to the minute news about what’s going on in Turkey, Reported.ly has a list of Turkish journalists which can be found at twitter.com/ reportedly/ lists/ turkey after closing up all the spaces. A fair number of folks are tweeting in English.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: this is just sounding more puzzling to me the more I hear about it.
patroclus
The coup plotters are on the defensive but they have not given up. They’re still targeting media outlets as you guys have summarized above, both in Ankara and Istanbul. They are still holding key positions in Ankara despite large scale surrenders in Istanbul. Parliament, as well as numerous government posts in Ankara, are still being held by the rebels. Reports about the remainder of the country are spotty, so all we really know is about the two largest cities. Crucially, no major political party is supporting the rebels and virtually all the crowds that poured out into the streets tonight have been supporting Erdogan. But the sun will be coming up in about a hour or two and the situation remains unclear overall. Which factions of the military are involved? Earlier, it seemed that the coup plotters were almost exclusively army and that the navy was uninvolved and the air force pro-Erdogan. Now, it’s less clear. There are reports that Erdogan has already returned to Turkey, but if he has, it wasn’t as triumphant as rumored. The longer this goes on, the more likelihood is that more bloodshed will be involved. The coup plotters have to realize that they will be tried for treason if they fail and they may get desperate enough to actually fire on civilians. It looks like it’s failed, but not in Ankara and not entirely clear yet.
Miss Bianca
@raven: Humph! *Some* of us manage to care about coups and personal grooming!//
redshirt
Fuck Erdogan. He’s a real example of creeping Sharia Law.
Turkey’s role as a secular Islamic state is crucial. One way or another I fear this coup will spell the end of that.
No one’s mentioned it, but I wonder if Israel has any role in this, specifically the recent overtures between Turkey and Israel. And I wonder what Israel thinks about this. Also, ISIL. Also, Russia. If I were any of Turkey’s adversaries I’d be using this coup for maximum chaos/leverage.
This is also another blow to the future of the EU. There once was a time when Turkey was working hard to meet the EU’s requirements. Why bother now.
I, too, feel like our world is spinning apart for no good reason other than W.
raven
@Miss Bianca: yea yea
raven
@redshirt: You should go get your nails done.
redshirt
@raven: Wrong thread.
raven
@redshirt: :)
Rob
@patroclus 9:09:
There are reports that Erdogan’s plane has taken off from Ataturk airport but with its transponder off.
But, Mic @mic 9m9 minutes ago
BREAKING: Large crowds greet President Recep Tayyip Erdogan as he emerges from a vehicle at Istanbul’s Ataturk Airport (via @AP)
Smoke and/or flames are coming out of the parliament building. One MP has died in the latest Parliament explosion according to the Prime Minister. Jets continue to fly low over Istanbul, rattling or breaking windows.
It is a very confused situation.
patroclus
@Rob: Yeah – good source! I was using some of that. Erdogan now arrived and making statement.
Rob
Ankaralı Jan @06JAnk 5m5 minutes ago
Report that coup-plotters are shooting protesters on the road outside the Parliament. Many wounded.
Confusing!!
Ankaralı Jan @06JAnk 9m9 minutes ago
Half my timeline saying Erdoğan is speaking to the crowd. Half that he’s taken off again. If both, was a very quick speech.
redshirt
@raven: I’m not hyper about any of this, but it seems like the world is devolving. Getting smaller, more fragmented, when it seemed like all the trends over the past 60 years indicated ever growing unity.
max
@Miss Bianca: this is just sounding more puzzling to me the more I hear about it.
Erdogan’s personal pals control MIT (Turkish intelligence) – that control causes suspicion about the way things have gone inside Turkey the last couple of years.
It’s also fairly obvious that Erdogan appointees at the top have made a beeline to various TV studios – it isn’t clear how much their pronouncements are true. A lot of it may be fake. It’s seem pretty clear the coup plotters are operating all across the country, not necessarily successfully. And they’re still operating in Istanbul.
max
[‘Second Patroclus – if the coup people decide they’re going to die, they’re going to fight to the end.’]
raven
@Rob: He’s on live on MSNBC
raven
@redshirt: Hey, you feel the way you feel. This shit is fucked up.
Rob
@raven 9:20:
If only I had a TV to actually watch him.
Of course he’s blaming the parallel state for this.
redshirt
@raven: We’re doomed.
raven
@redshirt: That is a given.
patroclus
Very rambling “statement” from Erdogan. At least he’s calm and not making unhinged threats. (Although he did call it a “Gift from God” and promised to make the instigators pay in front of the entire nation). He’s no longer blaming it on the Gulen Movement – he’s now blaming a “faction” within the military. He first spoke to the crowd and then is speaking more calmly in front of the media. He can now portray himself as an embattled force for democracy and it looks like he’s going to prevail. But it’s not over yet.
Adam L Silverman
@raven: My dinner was delayed. Do not buy brown jasmine rice. I don’t mean to be insensitive to brown jasmine rice, but it takes two to three times as long as regular brown rice to cook. So my arroz con pollo was not arrozed at the same time that it was con polloed! I did get a dog walk in though!
JGabriel
redshirt:
I can’t believe we’re still dealing with the damage that fuckwit wrought. We no longer have to imagine how long-lasting the impact of an idiot as POTUS will be. And yet more than 40% of the country wants put another, even bigger, even worse, idiot in charge of our country.
It’s mind-boggling to me.
raven
@Adam L Silverman: Pressure cooker!
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: It is important to look good when the rebellion starts! Also, when it ends!
Corner Stone
@patroclus:
He’s going to kill and/or show trial jail all of the military leaders.
Adam L Silverman
@redshirt: The norm was fragmentation. The post WW II order, for all its faults, created something new and stable based on interdependence. But just as American social dynamics have been slowly and steadily reverting to their pre WW II norms of individualized and fragmentized communities, rather than communities where people were involved in overlapping and reinforcing groups, institutions, and movements (Putnam doesn’t understand his time series. He sees an aberration when the reality is he doesn’t understand the norm prior to WW II). The question is how do we manage and mitigate these processes, what is salvageable and what can’t be saved, and what comes next?
Adam L Silverman
@raven: But she looks fabulous! Apparently according to the next thread…
redshirt
@JGabriel: Indeed. Do you remember how the world felt in, say March 2000?
It was the beginning of an era of extreme hope. Anything was possible.
Then W. Then the Dark Times. And even with Obama, the most hopeful, best man ever, it’s like he’s barely made a dent. We’re spiraling as world.
Global warming, the end of oil, global terrorism, etc etc. It’s all coming apart.
Adam L Silverman
@raven: I’m not sure it would make a difference with this stuff.
Miss Bianca
@raven: I didn’t say I was one of them, of course.
Davis X. Machina
@Corner Stone:
What’s Turkish for ‘blank check’?
raven
@Adam L Silverman: Can’t imagine it wouldn’t cook it faster but you might not get the texture you want.
Adam L Silverman
@redshirt: 24/7 social media and news media (even if they’re not actually doing much reporting of news) makes things seem worse. The attack in Nice appears to be something done by a very troubled individual who came to a breaking point. Similar with the Dallas attack, the Orlando attack, and even Dylan Roof’s attack at Mother Emmanuel Church. Not that the last wasn’t terrorism, nor that the first in the list might still turn out that way. But they seem closer and more urgent because we’re plugged into so much more information so much more frequently these days.
redshirt
@Adam L Silverman: Well, the norm, for what? American history? Because you could say the norm for all of humanity has been ever bigger groupings, ever bigger social structures. From the family to the tribe to the town and onward, humanity’s norm has clearly been to join into ever bigger groups.
And so the post WW1 world seemed, and as you say, definitely the post WW2 world. I wonder how much of it was based on pure fear, of the USSR. Of Nukes. And with that enemy gone, the reason for joining up is gone, and so we separate.
It’s ironic, perhaps. The “New World Order” that Pappy not only talked about but employed in Iraq.
It’s like W.’s imitation is the dark inversion, an act which has ripped the world apart rather than seemingly bringing it together.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: LOL! Particularly as a female of a certain age, you know – otherwise, we’d likely be lined up against the nearest wall and shot.
raven
@Miss Bianca: I think I was reacting to our dinner conversation tonight. My wife and I were eating with our friend and she was SOOO excited and said “you have to hear this”. She then proceeded to blabber on for 10 minute about finally finding a hair dresser who make her happy. SAY WHAT???
Starfish
The relevant hashtag for the coup seems to be #darbe
Dave L
@Adam L Silverman: Actually – this is getting pretty far into the weeds – Erdogan tried to give the US the route it wanted, but the authorization failed in parliament. He was deserted by some of his own party members, but the strongest resistance came from the opposition parties, which are in most senses more nationalistic than the AKP, and jumped at the chance to hand him a defeat. Public opinion was overwhelmingly opposed.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: Can’t remember who it was on a previous thread who cited this article – Josh Marshall citing John Scalzi, of all people – on the notion that with the last people who lived thru’ WWII dying out, we were seeing a resurgence of yearning for authoritarian/nationalist government – or, at least, an insensibility to the dangers it produces – but it did make me think, and with a rather sickening sense of dread. I really hope its premise doesn’t prove valid.
Miss Bianca
@raven: Just nod and smile, sunshine, nod and smile. Has she *never* had to sit thru’ a disquisition on some aspect of fishing? ; )
raven
@Miss Bianca: I don’t say “you just have to hear this”!
Dave L
@Adam L Silverman: Adam – thanks for that long reply. I think you’ve got it right, but am still amazed that the coup plotters went ahead with so little backing and so little reason to expect a success. The government is claiming that the mastermind is part of the Gulen movement, which if true might give you desperation as a motive, but still… And regardless of what lay behind this mess, the outcome couldn’t be better for Erdogan. Sigh. So I guess I’ll just take what comfort I can from this defense of democracy (yes, with blemishes) by an aroused citizenry.
Adam L Silverman
@raven: I’m just going to finish the bag off and just not buy it again.
patroclus
Some more things from Erdogan’s “statement.” He was apparently on vacation at a Black Sea seaside Turkish resort when notified – after he left, it was bombed by the air force. His pollster and his son, the chamberlain of the Palace and quite a number of other Turkish officials are either dead or missing, including the Army chief of staff, who is friendly with Erdogan and had attended Erdogan’s daughter’s recent wedding. Unlike the translation I first heard, he did issue some major threats to the instigators and his “Gift from God” language was aimed at them too. Also, CNN Turk is back on the air. The booms that people have been hearing in Istanbul have been deliberate sonic booms, not bombs. The sun is now coming up – we shall see what happens in the daylight.
Adam L Silverman
@redshirt: actually prior to WW II most Americans were born, raised, lived, and died within 50 to 100 miles of where they were born. WW II changed that. All of a sudden, between meeting people from all over the US and developing contacts with them that led to employment opportunities and the GI Bill, Americans were moving away from where they were born in large numbers. This saw a spike in membership of houses of worship, social and civic clubs, athletic clubs and organizations, etc. Since the 1960s the peak has begun to return to its historic norm of Americans not joining houses of worship or social and civil clubs or things like that. Basically, as a society, we’re not joiners.
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: You senior citizens say the funniest things…// just in case here’s several more sarc tags:///////////
Adam L Silverman
@Dave L: Gotcha.
Rob
(changed my mind)
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: I saw Marshall’s column last night and his reference to Scalzi’s tweet. I think there is something to that. It helps explain folks who seem to think that four or eight years of a proto-fascistic demagogue would actually renew the Republic and American polity, society, and economy rather than end it. They’ve never had to fight against, or live through the fight against, something like this. And I’ve noticed that there is a segment of people that grew up under totalitarian regimes of one type or another that seem to prefer it. I think this is a socialization and acculturation issue.
Adam L Silverman
@Dave L: You’re welcome. I’m still not sure we know much at this point. We’ve got a lot of leaves and some branches and few trees, but I’m not sure we’ve got enough to make an image of a forest or its ecosystem.
Adam L Silverman
@patroclus: I saw a tweet about an hour back that indicated that the Turkish Chief of Staff of the Armed Forces had been rescued. Apparently he’d been held hostage. Regardless, the Commander of Turkish Special Forces seems to be one of the senior military staff coordinating the government’s defense and response.
redshirt
@Adam L Silverman: It’s still a regression, even if it’s to the mean.
And I’m talking about the world anyways, not just the USA. Seemed like people were joining back in the day. Now we’re all dissolving.
Adam L Silverman
@redshirt:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPO43kCh3_c
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: I don’t qualify for AARP membership *yet*, you whippersnapper! (yes, I saw the snark tags!)
ETA: ALtho’ I’ll probably feel like it after I’m done hiking in the Pecos this weekend!
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: You can join AARP at 50 for a full membership.
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: The New Mexico Pecos wilderness? I love hiking there!
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: Yup! Am going down to Pecos tomorrow to meet up with my sister!
ETA: That’s what is making me so angry and alarmed at my cohort who are flirting with third-party voting. If they’re not actively rooting for chaos, then what the hell are they thinking? And if they are rooting for chaos – then what the hell are they thinking?
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: So I highly recommend El Paragua for dinner. Its in Espanol.
http://www.elparagua.com/
And hiking Bandolier National Monument!
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: Funny you should mention Bandolier – that’s where we went the last time the family all got together down there – and, oh! I think I’ve been to El Paragua on that same visit, if they’ve got a courtyard inside that wall! The place I remember was amazingly good – I was staggering out of there, I was so full!
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: That’s it. Its basically built into the wall just on the edge of where the main road through Espanol meets with the State route than runs up to Chimayo and then on towards Mora. Our house was across the valley from Mora up in Panderes.
I love hiking Bandolier. And the food at El Paragua is always excellent. Rancho de Chimayo seems to be hit and miss. Sometimes they’re good, sometimes they’re not so good.
J R in WV
@patroclus:
I think Turkey under Erdogan has been buying oil from ISIS… which isn’t really supporting the coalition against ISIS that the rest of NATO is part of…
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: h’mmm…I’ll have to pull out a map to see if I can find the area your house was in.
Actually, I think I’m hankering to head into the trees right around Pecos itself – go past the monastery and into the national forest land…
pseudonymous in nc
The hallmark of 2016: not even Turkish military coups fit the pattern we’re used to.
J R in WV
@Adam L Silverman:
A couple of days ago we had a bunch of local mushrooms, so we decided to make risotto with onions and mushrooms and chicken broth. Using white arborio rice it took close to 40 minutes to soften enough to eat. Chantrelle ‘srooms, bright yellow when picked. Wonderful.
There are two types locally, one gives our chief biologist a headache, so I don’t care to use those. I won’t attempt to describe the difference, one has tiny grooves and the other is smooth… DO NOT use this description to determine the safety of any ‘srooms you may ingest.
Once done it was wonderful, but MyGod how long stirring and adding another scoop of hot broth. So you have my sympathy with the eternally crunchy brown rice. White rice can take forever too…
redshirt
@pseudonymous in nc: It’s not your Father’s Turkish coup.
Adam L Silverman
@J R in WV: Risotto is not a five minute meal! But when done right it oh so worth it!
redshirt
Also too, the Turkish flag looks like a demon moon hungry to eat a sheriff’s star.
Chris
@Dave L:
I read something not long ago that claimed that the coups with the most chance of success were those that were led by the top leadership of the military. The further down the food chain the officers plotting the coup are, the bigger the chance of success. Since this apparently was formed by lower ranking officers (relatively), it seems to fit in with that theory (unless something happens in the next few hours and the plotters win out after all). Also seems that Erdogan’s strategy of specifically purging the upper ranks of the military from the kind of people who would do this has paid off.
J R in WV
@Adam L Silverman:
So we stopped at Bandolier some time back, to see the ruins. But they only let so many folks a day in, and they had already issued all the tix to visit the ruins for that day when we got there.
So we drove on, driving tour. There was an arts conference on museum hill in Santa Fe, which we attended, amazing Native American creations. We got a round Navajo rug, very unusual, most are rectangular. Then we visited the Two Grey Hills clan, Toadlina trading post, Canyon de Chelly, Monument Valley, wonderful. Also Chaco Canyon National Historic Park…amazing stone work.
One tomb had 50 or 60 thousand individual pieces of worked turquoise jewelry… and we know nothing of why they built so many huge cities, with so few inhabitants. Obviously highly important culturally, but with no knowledge of why? we can’t understand the huge amount of labor that went into this amazing locality.
And the stone walls look fabricated. Drop dead flat walls of stone, with no metal tools at all. Just work.
Omnes Omnibus
@redshirt: This blog is a community, yes? One that could not have existed more than 15 years or so ago. Grainges and Turners go away and blogs appear.
Chris
@Adam L Silverman:
Who are you talking about? Because if it’s the Russians (for whom “it was better in the Soviet Union” became a common refrain soon after the fall), I actually think they’ve got a point, at least if you compare it to the mess that was the Yeltsin years. Was there a lot of economic hardship in the Soviet years? Sure, but there was also a lot of economic hardship in the nineties, and now there was even less of a safety net to help cushion it. Were the authorities brutal, abusive and corrupt in the Soviet years? Sure, but the authorities were still brutal, abusive and corrupt in the nineties, and now you had to deal with gangs, organized crime, and terrorists on top of that. No wonder they ran back into the arms of the KGB. That’s not an endorsement of totalitarianism but more of a commentary on the state Russia was in after the fall. Marshall Plan post-collapse management it wasn’t.
I don’t know as much about Eastern Europe. Though I can definitely see how similar sentiments might crop up in former Yugoslavia.
Omnes Omnibus
@Chris: May I ask a question? How old are you? It informs one’s views….
redshirt
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m talking about nation state relations and above, and/or the concept of the nation state. Is ISIL a nation state? No. Does it occupy territory? Yes. What is it?
The EU is a concept above the nation state; a collection of nation states acting within a democracy to move forward with common plans.
Social media means little except as a means of arranging bombing/shooting targets.
Omnes Omnibus
@redshirt: Go set your hair on fire then. I, personally, won’t feel the loss.
redshirt
@Omnes Omnibus:
I assume when you sober up tomorrow you’ll be somewhat ashamed of these posts. But not too much, mind you.
Omnes Omnibus
@redshirt: W’vevs. I don’t think that the world is collapsing. Sorry.
redshirt
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m sincerely glad you’re more optimistic than I am.