I don’t understand why it’s vital that Bernie get out of the race and endorse Hillary immediately. I do understand why he needs to do this before the convention. But I don’t understand why it has to happen soon.
It sounds like Hillary can expect about a 5 point, give or take, bounce from bringing the Bernie voters home, and I’m confident she’ll get this sooner or later. In the meantime, isn’t it just as well that she has only a 4-6 point lead in polls instead of a 9-11 point lead, given that a double digit lead might convince Republicans to do the smart thing and find a way to dump Trump?
Every day that Republicans think Trump is in it to win it and go around idiotically tying their fates to his is a good day for Democrats. If Trump were way down in the polls, this wouldn’t be happening the way that it is right now.
And eventually Bernie will do the right thing. In the meantime, we need to just chill them liberals out and wait for the cavalry, which should be coming directly.
chopper
long as his campaign doesn’t revolve around attacking the party and the nominee he should stay in the race as long as he wants to.
Lee
I was worried that the Republicans were going to stage a revolt and “Drump Trump”. But then Bill Kristol tweeted/opined about how much interest in dumping Trump. So it looks like Trump it is!
Chris
You callin B-Rock???? Shiiiiiiiiiii negro thats all u had to say….
Corner Stone
The cavalry, she has already been broughten.
Baud
You say “Bernie” but I know you mean “Baud!”
EdTheRed
And baby, do everything your heart desires
Remember, I’ll always be around
aimai
It isn’t necessary that Bernie get out of the race at all–he can suspend his campaign, acknowledge Hillary is the winner, and keep running as her attack dog, mobilizing his voters, and telling them that Hillary has offered to work with them on their issues.
The idea that Bernie has to stay in the race as a potential candidate is what frosts people’s livers. He is not going to go to the convention and be chosen by popular acclaim. He should not be propsoing to go to the convention and “fight” over anything–not the rules, not the platform, nothing. Why? Because fighting or “negotiating” or any of the other crap that Bernie’s fans want is, in essence, still arguing that the DNC and Hillary and the entire “establishment” are corrupt and need to be kept straight by Bernie. Without Bernie, apparently, we wouldn’t be able to run an honest campaign this time or next time. Without Bernie’s imprimatur none of Hillary’s policies are real or have meaning or worth.
I, and everyone else, am just sick and tired of the enormous ego on this tired old asshole. Even if I thought, like Bernie, that I was the second coming of FDR at the point where you can only distract from the business of electing Trump’s opponents you have to get out of the way. In short: fuck him.
Matt McIrvin
It’s not crucial; the events of the past few days have made that clear.
But there’s no reason to go easy on Trump out of fear that he won’t be the nominee. He’s decisively won the Republican primaries and most of the party has already lined up behind him. If the Republicans do seriously try to turn around and dump him, the resulting chaos and strife will tank them as effectively as running Trump.
MattF
Just can’t see how Republicans can (or will) dump Trump. Problem is that if Trump is dumped, his voters will mostly stay home– and that would kill off a lot of downticket Rs. Official Rs will try to badmouth Trump without alienating a big chunk of the R base– but that would be impossible if Trump is gone.
BGinCHI
Agree, honey-bunny.
Doug!
@Chris:
Glad someone got the Pulp Fiction reference!
Mike J
When Sanders campaigns against the party he claims to be a member of, when every time voters reject him he claims it was because he was cheated, yeah, I’d much rather have him just go the fuck away. He’s a useless pile of shit.
He is singlehandedly disenchanting the next generation of voters by feeding them the lie that the only way they could lose is by skullduggery, not because people prefer another candidate. The Democratic party, the United States, and Democracy in general would be better off without him.
yellowdog
@aimai: You are my soulmate!
enplaned
@Matt McIrvin — this. Trump could be running 20 points back and the GOP would still have no way to dump him without causing a civil war.
If Trump was that far back, a bigger risk would be Trump inventing a reason to drop out so that he wouldn’t get clobbered and be seen as a loser. To the extent that there’s a worry, it’s that. We do want Trump to be crowned the official GOP nominee. If, at some point thereafter, Trump invents a reason to drop out to avoid being a loser, then fine. Not sure what the heck would happen then, but pretty confident it wouldn’t be good for the GOP.
Jeff Spender
So I’ve been attacked for “sacrificing my principles” because I’m now solidly for Clinton.
And I find that funny, because one of my principles is “win.”
El Caganer
Calvary? They’re supposed to crucify Bernie at the Wells Fargo Center? Wow. I mean, I know the local Dems are planning a lot of interesting activities for the convention, but that’s a bit much.
Cacti
No, I don’t think we need to hand hold the old white man because his delicate ego can’t take ignominy of “getting beat by a girl.”
Concede you old buzzard.
jonas
@Lee: I read too the other day that Dick Morris has signed up as a Trump advisor as well, so the circle is complete. Trump is doomed.
gene108
Reposting this for a fresh thread:
http://www.wvtm13.com/politics/mcconnell-obvious-trump-doesnt-know-issues/39995206
That’s a nice ad McConnell just wrote for Hillary.
Jeff Spender
@gene108: At this point I think they’re doing it on purpose.
Doug!
@El Caganer:
Thanks. I always mess up those two words.
Marmot
Dems are doing our usual thing, panicking. This time it’s about Bernie.
Here’s what concerns me.
I witnessed America elect GW Bush twice. We oughtta trounce the Repubs with Trump at the top of the ticket, but our countrymen’s stupidity and a modern-day Reichstag fire equivalent could thwart us.
MattF
@enplaned: Considering that Trump is planning to spend significant campaign money in CA and MD, he’s just deluded– and that doesn’t seem to be subject to change. It’s hard to picture circumstances where he’d back out. But we shall see.
Rex Everything
I think it’s due to the mentality Taibbi examines in his latest column:
.
JPL
My senator joked about Obama’s death today at the religious conference… link
Senator Perdue is giving new meaning to the word Christian…
Hitless
It shock and pains me to say this, but I think it would be wrong to assume that Trump is unlikely to beat Hillary. He’ll get all the Republican voters in the end. Supposedly, Hillary won’t get all of the Obama voters. Plus also, she’s a woman and there’s a decent number of people who will vote against her based on that reason (though they don’t believe it is for that reason). Also, I’m regaled daily with stories about how millennial woman hate Hillary and won’t vote for her. The latter, I think, is the media click-baitingly messing with me. But still. The media will demand a tight race so they get the ratings they need. And with that thumb on the scale, bad W-like things can obviously happen. In fact, I just heard today on Nice Polite Republicans someone explain to me that Trump would have a great cabinet of experienced advisors that will make up for any shortcoming he has. Little flashback to 2000….sigh.
Emma
You know what I am enjoying? Watching Sanders do his best to make himself irrelevant — or not. I am going to be listening to him very closely in the next few months. His ability to make an honest turn into supporting the Democratic candidate will go a long way to deciding his future. Politics is an unforgiving game.He truly throws his weight behind Hillary — he wins. He keeps on with the passive aggressive stuff — he’s toast.
Comrade Mary
@Doug!: When in doubt, ask Jona Lewie.
Cacti
@Rex Everything:
Always good to hear from one of Bernie’s 7-figure working class heroes, like Taibbi.
MattF
@Hitless: Bear in mind that Gore won in 2000. And HRC isn’t going to repeat his errors.
Corner Stone
@enplaned:
After the Opening Day lambasting Trump got yesterday, on top of the small taste HRC gave him last week, I’d have to say I am enjoying this general election season. Just glad the G-D primary is over. Sheesh.
Technocrat
They’re never going to dump Trump, it’s not a possibility, or an option. His base is people who are angry at the Establishment (“GOPe”), and they’re going to oust him using the machine? Jesus god. The destruction wrought on and by their their Party’s base would be unfathomable. it would actually be better to accept defeat this cycle. They seem to thrive in the minority anyway.
A 9-11 point lead doesn’t convince Republicans to dump Trump, it convinces them to stay home. A 5 point lead makes it seem that victory is possible, however pyrrhic.
guachi
I wouldn’t say Bernie has to drop out and endorse Clinton now as opposed to the convention. Sanders’ influence, I believe, is greatest now and and a drop out/endorsement now is the best chance Sanders has of enacting some Sanders-centric changes.
The longer he waits the less relevant he becomes, unless his goal is to harm Clinton.
RobertDSC-iPhone 6
@aimai:
This.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Sanders can do whatever the hell he likes – personally, the longer he waits the less leverage he has over anything, so I hope he waits a long time – with one caveat. The attacks on Clinton and the Dem party and process stop right now. If he doesn’t I think the party should go after him hammer and tongs, and that includes a GOOD primary challenger in VT.
trollhattan
NPR found a female Berner this a.m. who admitted as how she’d “take a barf bag” in the booth and vote for Hillary, something something a tiny bit better than Trump on the Supreme Court. I’m quite accustomed by now hearing this from guys, but this woman jolted me awake. How in the name of brain synapses are the two candidates a teensy bit separated? This is Cirque du Soleil-grade stretching and implies Republican anti-Clinton rhetoric has had a significant, lasting impact.
The Dangerman
@MattF:
Maybe he wants to help out the Republican candidate for Senator … oops
Mike J
@Cacti: Funny how Taibbi talks about giving power back to the voters, but ignores the fact that more voters voted against him than for him.
Baud
@Rex Everything:
Up till this year, I thought it meant that the person with the most votes should win.
Believe me, I’d prefer the opposite rule.
Chip Daniels
I have a lot of Bernie friends, and it has been like watching a friend cope with a death or business bankruptcy.
While I found the Bernie forces to be annoying at times, that just how politics goes.
What isn’t helpful now is becoming poor winners, taunts and tap dancing on graves.
I’ve worked for losing campaigns before, and it’s damn hard, crushing painful to believe so much then taste the ashes.
The more we can do to give the Berners time and space to grieve their loss and work out a rapprochement with us, the better.
Rex Everything
@Cacti: It’s both hilarious and sad how the clueless Beltway hacks Taibbi describes are role models to nitwits like you.
Chyron HR
@Rex Everything:
Maybe that’s because he keeps demanding that the Democratic party literally throw out the primary results and declare him the nominee by fiat?
Oh, yes, of course, THAT’S it. Silly, silly me.
burnspbesq
@Rex Everything:
Taibbi, the Kristol of the Left.
Kay
@gene108:
They are shameless. I know what they’re hoping too. They’re hoping they can “manage” this privileged, clueless dope and the GOP leads in Congress and lobbying will really be running things. In a way it’s a dream come true. The circus clown is “the President” and everything is really conducted privately. They are fundamentally anti-democratic, conservatives.
trollhattan
@JPL:
Jesus wept.
Joel
I agree with this, and I think Clinton knows this, too.
Another important thing to consider is that five months is a long fucking time. Competition, illusory or not, helps keep voters engaged. Obviously the gig is up by convention time, but that’s still a ways away. Better to get those committed voters to volunteer, donate, etc. right now.
hellslittlestangel
I still worry a little about Trump getting cheated out of the nomination. Republicans are cowards, yes, but it’s like this man stays up at night thinking of new ways to outrage and alienate people. You can only push even the most craven coward so far before he
stands up to yousneaks up behind you and stabs you.msdc
The cavalry came yesterday, when Biden, Warren, and Obama joined the fray. They are going to slap Trump silly for the next five months and it will be a thing of beauty.
As long as Sanders knocks off the attacks on Hillary (and on the legitimacy of the primaries that he lost overwhelmingly), he can take a little time to work himself and his people around to a full endorsement.
Doofus
I think the goal here would be to cement the narrative of Trump as big fat loser, which will exacerbate his main problems. The big money will stay on the sidelines and he’ll make a lot more unforced errors out of desperation.
Felonius Monk
@Baud:
So Baud is the new Bernie? Does that mean we will now have BaudBros?
Cacti
@Rex Everything:
It’s even funnier that you think a second generation media nepotism baby like Taibbi is an anti-establishment voice. ;-)
Matt McIrvin
Who does the Republican establishment cabal slot in instead of Trump, if they really want a coup? One of the losers Trump already beat, or some other schmuck who lost to Democrats before like Mitt Romney or Paul Ryan, or some gray eminence most Americans never even heard of? The Republican base would be completely demoralized, the Trumpists would be outraged, and the Democrats could pivot to just attacking that guy using 2012 tactics. I’m not sure it even helps with downballot races.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Jeff Spender: Mine too. Realized something a long time ago. None of your principles or desires mean jack shit if you lose.
Baud
@Felonius Monk: My core supporters’ demographic tends to be older women, so maybe BaudBiddies!
amk
All the people drop out when they see their path is closed. What is so special about bs?
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Hitless: I enjoy your concerns. Blocked.
trollhattan
@The Dangerman:
Heh. Maybe Bernie’s playing 11-D chess with his claim California’s “closer than it looks” just to lure Donny here into the briar patch, not because he believes in magic ponies.
Meg Whitman would be the ideal state director. Make it so.
yellowdog
@trollhattan: It’s not Republican anti-Clinton rhetoric, it’s Sanders anti-Clinton rhetoric that is the problem here, I think.
MattF
@hellslittlestangel: In particular, if Trump selects an ‘establishment’ VP candidate– Trump should insist that the VP candidate go through a metal detector before getting within range.
El Caganer
@Kay: Isn’t that what sort of happened with Dubyuh? First Mate Dick and the rest of the pirates ran the ship while the Captain was futzing around at his “ranch.” After all, he told us that presidentin’ is hard work – something to which he’s seemed to be allergic his whole life.
guachi
@Felonius Monk:
Doesn’t quite have the same ring to it. Maybe BaudBuddies?
rikyrah
Happy 15th Birthday to First Daughter Sasha :)
Happy Graduation Day to First Daughter Malia :)
Baud
@guachi:
That’s what I call my canine supporters.
dmsilev
@Rex Everything: Hillary Clinton received, by a lot, more votes than Bernie Sanders. That Sanders was at all even vaguely competitive in pledged delegates was because his vocal and fervent base allowed him to dominate the (low-turnout, rather non-democratic) caucuses. If anything, the pledged delegate race was “rigged” in favor of someone taking Sanders’ path.
The supers are irrelevant. If Sanders had finished with more pledged delegates, the supers would have been on his side. See: Obama, Barack.
Sanders spent the last month or so arguing for a path to his victory that explicitly would have required super delegates overturning the collective decision of the voters. How is that “returning power to the voters”?
Ben
I hope this bounce happens soon.
hellslittlestangel
@MattF: And if Trump picks Gingrich, he should hire himself a food taster.
SiubhanDuinne
@Doug!:
I had a teacher who was very big on mnemonics for easily-confused words, and this was one of them.
The CAVALRY soldier was VALiant.
Others that come to mind: STATIONERY = PAPER
The PRINCIPAL is your PAL
:-)
MattF
@dmsilev: I.e., ‘returning power to my voters.’
dmsilev
@amk:
The length of time that it’s taking him. It took Ted Cruz about 12 hours to come to terms with the fact that he couldn’t win and he was going to have to drop out. Bernie Sanders is failing the low low bar of “behaves better than Ted Cruz”.
Eric U.
@El Caganer: Donnie actually is perfect in the Reagan/W role. As long as they have their Cheney in place, they can just do what they want and have him at big speeches in front of the rubes. I don’t think he even understands what a President does, “WHY HASN’T Russia BEEN NUKED YET!???”
marduk
It’s not important at all. Bernie’s concession could come at any time up to and including the convention itself and the result will be the same. Hillary’s toxic troll army wants to see him cowed and cowering and his supporters mocked and demeaned but they’re just a small group with an outsized voice on sites like this one.
trollhattan
@yellowdog:
Completely agree. It’s deeply disturbing to hear them stenographing Republican tropes. Thats after filtering out the Republican plants.
SiubhanDuinne
@JPL:
Dear gods. He really did.
Baud
Ok, who leaked Hillary’s national security plan?
chopper
@Jeff Spender:
in politics principles don’t translate to much in terms of policy if you’re stuck sitting in the back of the room. ask bernie, he knows this intimately.
gene108
@yellowdog:
There’s a difference?
Matt McIrvin
@dmsilev: It took Hillary Clinton several days in 2008. She wasn’t being walloped as badly as Ted Cruz, but the same is true of Sanders.
Eric U.
@trollhattan: the true believer bernistas are still showing up on my FB feed saying how the system was rigged blah, blah, blah. At no point am I interested in telling them they can’t have a pony.
Hoodie
@Cacti: Yeah, Taibbi can be entertaining and even insightful at times, but he can also be a colossal dumbass.
Bergman
GOP governors in FL, WI, MI and OH are of a concern to me, and there were enough polling snafus in the primaries that Sanders could make ballot integrity his issue in the general. He could put his damn name on the effort, and not even stay a Dem.
Baud
FWIW, I don’t have an issue with Bernie not dropping out until DC is done. As far as I can tell, he’s ratcheting down the rhetoric from what it was before.
Alain the site fixer
Off topic: Comments should no longer get moderated. Sorry it took so long. Apparently the back end for the comment spam check changed so our plugin version was tripping lots of false positives. I just updated the plugin and it should settle down now.
I hope to launch some updated files and such later today, perhaps over the weekend. When it happens it should be a minute or so of updating so if the site looks or acts wonky later, count to 20 slowly, then hit refresh and all should be better.
And now, return to your normal discussion-related activities.
amk
@Matt McIrvin: She and Obama split the PV 50-50 at 18 mil each. Sanders got what 12 mil so far to her 16 mil? False equivalence.
Cat48
@aimai:
I second that. Yesterday Jeff Sachs came on TV to announce that “we” have to have a coalition government. Also, Bernie must pick her Cabinet for her. Also, she must get out of all the Wars SHE started?? Has he lost his mind?
Baud
@Alain the site fixer:
Can’t you fix that too?
SiubhanDuinne
@Baud:
BaudBroads. It’s more euphonious.
dmsilev
@Matt McIrvin: Sort of. She called Obama the morning after the final primaries to concede, and then made a public announcement via email the next day, and a couple of days after that held one last rally to thank her supporters and volunteers and staff and to formally deliver an endorsement. That speech four days after the primary is what everyone remembers, but the actual acknowledgement of the outcome came pretty much right after the primary.
In any event, we still have one primary to go, so it doesn’t really surprise me or bother me too too much that Bernie wants to play out the string. Once Tuesday rolls around, however, he’s run out of excuses.
hovercraft
@aimai:
Yes this. Stay in as long as you want, but stop stacking the nominee and the party. You came in to our house with full knowledge of what the house rules were, so you don’t get to complain now. He lost and he needs to explain to his supporters that he lost fair and square and the task now is to defeat and humiliate the short fingered orange vulgarian. If he goes out there and beats Trump up everyday then I will cheer him on, but if he is denigrating everyone who is not on his side I will continue to say shut the f up.
Baud
@Cat48:
Woohoo! Which cabinet positions should I ask for? How about a new position for Vice-Vice-President?
scav
@Alain the site fixer: OT pingback. I love dispatches from the belowdecks of the blog. Huzzah for updated crazed gerbils!
Jeff Spender
@chopper: That’s the drum I’ve been banging for years.
The question is not “will you sacrifice youe principles,” but “which principles will you sacrifice.” Because no matter what you do, you’ll never agree 100% with a party or candidate.
Which is why one of my principles is “win.” It’s not one I will sacrifice until a candidate that most closely aligns with me doesn’t align enough.
Miss Bianca
@Chip Daniels:
I’m all for that. In fact, the farther away they do it from me, the better. I have seldom been more turned off by the behavior of some of my friends than while they were gripped by Sanders fever, and I am happy to let them get over it in isolation or with fellow sufferers. When they *are* ready to get over it and get on board, I may be ready to talk about something other than the weather and this year’s fruit crop with them.
Mike J
@Alain the site fixer: You’ve rigged the system! Hurrah!
yellowdog
@JPL: Seems like there is a senator who needs to have a visit from the Secret Service. That is a pretty explicit threat.
schrodinger's cat
She won and Bernie better get with the program and curb his assorted hangers-on from the academia like Sachs and West etc. Their patronizing remarks about what Hillz should do are annoying. Your guy lost, deal with it.
MattF
@Alain the site fixer:
Wrong crowd for that. “Do not put fist through screen.”
hovercraft
@Mike J:
He needs to bring them around tell them the system was fair, and he knew the rules going in. I also think that if he wants to get the state parties to change their nomination process’s he needs to educate his people and get them involved at the local level. Join the democratic party and become the drivers of the change they want. The democratic party is not going to allow itself to be changed by people who are not members of the party.
Miss Bianca
@Felonius Monk: I believe the BJ-approved term is “Bauddhisatvas”.
Chyron HR
@marduk:
[FILE PHOTO]
dww44
@enplaned: I like this scenario. Hope it comes to pass.
pseudonymous in nc
Totally agree on chilling out for now. Let Bernie finish the primary game off: the final whistle is next week, and if he tries to take it into overtime when he’s down, then we can worry.
The WSJ chipped in with its own ‘Trump stiffs people on bills’ story, from the perspective of suppliers and professional services rather than the tradespeople USA Today focused on. He does it to everybody, with the same damn tactic every damn time.
As others have said, I don’t see anyone wanting to do business with the Trump Org after this campaign. Any contractors will know that they’ll face a 50% haircut for “shoddy” work and a long, expensive legal battle to get anything back.
schrodinger's cat
She won and Bernie better get with the program and curb his assorted hangers-on from the academia like Sachs and West etc. Their patronizing remarks about what Hillz should do are annoying. Your guy lost, deal with it.
ETA: BTW what is the point of having the ability to edit your comments if doing so sends them into moderation. Upgrade fail.
Ben
Anyone else super nervous about Hillary’s tiny lead? Fox News only has her up three. Looks like a Trump victory is a real possibility, and its frustrating that some on our side won’t admit that. If Trump was as bad and toxic as everyone says he is she should be up like +15.
El Caganer
@Miss Bianca: It’s got a nice “purity” ring to it.
Keith G
It amazes me that many of the attacks here on Bernie Sanders seem mean spirited, personal, and even a bit hateful.
He ran a campaign for the nomination of president. He tought tough though not necessarily smart. There were logical inconsistencies in his effort, not unlike other candidates we know particularly one who has won the nomination, well not officially won.
I think Sanders arguments about the primary process are essentially rubbish. I basically like the system the way it is, even the super delegates. Quite frankly, I imagine that anything done to improve the situation might end up with unintended consequences that have their own significant drawbacks.
Despite the fact that Sanders and I disagree on this and other issues, I don’t think he is deserving of personal attacks or other forms of angry insults. I think doing so is a mark of a rather retrograde style of thinking, worthy of a middle school lunchroom.
Mike J
@hovercraft:
They also need to know that showing up for one meeting doesn’t mean everybody else is going to scrap their own principles and adopt your program 100%. If you’re a precinct captain that goes to the spaghetti dinners and volunteers to staff the booth on the 4th of July, people might listen to what you have to say more than if you show up for one meeting and throw a temper tantrum.
MattF
@Ben: HRC has a significantly bigger lead in electoral votes. I suspect there’s a lot of piling-on in very red states.
JPL
@yellowdog: Hopefully, it makes the local news, but I have my doubts. IOKIYR
Mike J
@Chyron HR: It’s like you’re watching through my webcam.
hovercraft
@jonas:
He has the A-Team now Roger Stone, Jeffrey Lord, Dick Morris, and that sleazy anti-Clinton Phillip Klein. Good times.
Ben
@MattF:
The most recent poll in Florida had Trump +1.
dww44
@Hitless: I keep hearing this too from local friends, one in particular who seems to be justifying her vote for Trump utilizing this weak argument:
Someone on this blog has gotta have a short and succint response to this argument that I can deploy between now and November 8.
MomSense
@Felonius Monk:
Just Brauds will do.
amk
@Keith G: right, bs and his fans were such fine examples of etiquette.
Keith G
@Ben:
No
Dude, it’s not even mid June. Yes, from a structural point of view there will always be close races between Democrats and Republicans. Republicans start out with a 46% of the electorate total while Democrats hold roughly 48% I am quite confident that it would be extraordinarily difficult for Donald Trump to outperform that even if he does manage to bring in a few new voters to the White and Angry Crowd
MattF
@Ben: But the aggregate shows a stable Clinton lead, and that’s what matters.
sunny raines
What a naive post.
Not going to happen – they’re stuck with trump at this point, nothing going to dislodge him.
same thing on the Dem side. Anyone who knows anything knew the Dem race was over after New York. It was only the media dragging out the illusion of a competitive race (and Bernie and his bros played into it) for ratings, which apparently Americans only care about he said/she said, demanding it from their infotainment purveyors. Only a real numb-nuts would believe in Bernie still having a chance at the nomination.
The only thing that matters in US politics is getting your name out their regularly in every news cycle. The Bernie quitting the race only matters for one of those. Up to the Clinton team really to figure out the best bang for their buck from that one shot event.
Miss Bianca
@Ben:
No. But thank you for your concern.
Agorabum
@Rex Everything: it’s because the race has been functionally over for a long time, but Bernie had been stoking claims of corruption and malfeasance against Hillary and the DNC the entire time it was over. Post CA, sanders seems to be finally keeping it clean. But the irritation stems from the april-June tactics, and things like going ape over Nevada.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Ben: oh look, another new poster with “concerns”. No, I’m not worried about it at all. And you’re blocked.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@sunny raines: Agree with both. Trump’s not leaving and Bernie was not “in it” in any significant way since NY.
Baud
dailykos had an interesting post up the other day that, despite the acrimony, neither Clinton nor Sanders ran a single negative ad against each other this entire primary.
Keith G
@amk: Who cares what some of his supporters are examples of?
Thanks for the telling example, though That doesn’t even make for good Middle School behavior.
Ben
@Miss Bianca:
This kind of smug complacency got us Reagan and George W. Bush.
schrodinger's cat
Ben is a kinder, gentler version of R-along R-ping up and so on.
Baud
@Ben: So don’t be smug or complacent. Problem solved.
bupalos
@Ben: I know it’s a bad look and bad luck in politics or sports or anything to act like it’s over before it’s over. But at the presidential level, it’s over, and I think it’s better that democrats recognize this and the significance of it so strategy, energy, and resources can be directed to get the most juice out of this fact.
Is it POSSIBLE Trump could win? I guess, but it would take some serious black-swannery that there is no way to prepare for or combat ahead of time. Meanwhile there’s a really good chance that this win can be misplayed into near meaninglessness by not picking up down-ticket. To me, that’s why the dems job right now is nothing but trying to tie trump to republicans and republicans to trump.
dww44
@Kay: Thanks, Kay. I so respect your “in the trenches” experience and analysis. Particularly given that your residence in a perpetually bell weather state means that your analyses are really relevant to the campaign writ large.
amk
@Keith G: The ugliness and bs rhetoric came from the top but yeah, let’s just scold the other side for responding.
Mike J
@Ben:
The left attacking Carter and Tad Devine’s strategy for Gore to run away from Clinton is what got us Regan and Bush.
Ben
Some of your responses remind me of what people were saying in 1980 and 2000 “oh there’s no WAY the country would be dumb enough to elect Reagan/W….and yet….
Saying “it’s over” is the height of complacency. This election is a 50/50 proposition we may very well see President-Elect Trump on November 9th because of Hillary’s weaknesses. And what if she is indicted? Why is the FBI investigation taking so long if there’s no “there” there? Never got an adequate response to that question.
Technocrat
@Keith G:
Aren’t you making the same argument about a vanishingly small fraction of Clinton supporters?
Rex Everything
@Mike J: @Baud:
Your statements hinge on the notion that once a candidate wins the popular vote, everything s/he does while in office = de facto representative government.
That’s nuts.
Baud
@Ben: I suggest expatriating yourself now to beat the rush.
Joel
@trollhattan: This is the cost of relative peace and prosperity. Those who benefit the most lose perspective.
amk
@Ben: busted.
Corner Stone
@bupalos:
I think that unlike previous election cycles, if something very serious and threatening happened IMO people would not be looking to Trump to protect them or steer us through it safely.
MattF
@amk: I agree.
Corner Stone
Ed Rendell needs to go back to his gin soaked quiet rooms, do some more lobbying, and shut the hell up.
Baud
@Rex Everything: Huh?
Baud
@Corner Stone: Is he doubling down on the Liz Warren thing? What an idiot.
bupalos
@Corner Stone: yeah I can’t even come up with the black swan event or combination of events. But that’s the thing about those pesky swans.
Corner Stone
@Baud: No, it was the same blurb from last night I think. It just freshly pissed me off again.
MattF
@Corner Stone: I agree– Trump isn’t exactly a ‘safe harbor’. The problem, though, is that variances would suddenly become a lot larger, and all calculations go out the window.
Alain the site fixer
Well looks like my joy was premature. Some comments are still being moderated. No idea why as everything should be hunky-dory with comments now. The optimistic take is that now, once a comment from you is freed, your subsequent comments should not be unnecessarily detained.
I now return to the underworld of Balloon Juice with a swish of my cape, smoke, and the nostril-singe of burned saltpeter.
Miss Bianca
@Ben: Who the FUCK are you to tell me I’m smug or complacent? Because I’m not wringing my hands over illusory concern-trolling bullshit like national polls five months out or non-existent indictments? I am fully prepared to worry about real shit and as a member of my Democratic Party’s Central Committee, you can bet your sweet bippy that I’m probably going to be doing one metric fuck-ton more than you are to help ensure a Clinton victory in the fall. Take your concern-trolling and cram it, clown.
Mike J
@Rex Everything: You seem to think that the best way to determine the true will of the people is to have them vote, and then ignore it and only listen to the chair throwing loudmouths.
Clinton won more votes. More people voted for Clinton. American citizens cast their ballots, and more of them were cast for Clinton. Clinton has the majority of votes. Votes: Clinton won them. Actual human beings got off their couches, went to the polls and voted for Clinton,. She won. Clinton is the choice of the people. The electorate has spoken,
The Lodger
@Baud: I’d have suggested defenestrating himself, but expatriating himself would probably work just fine.
bupalos
@Ben:
Maybe so concern trolls on the internet have something to talk about? I mean seriously, she is simply not getting indicted over a protocol breach with essentially no demonstrable ramifications. Period.
Ben
@Miss Bianca:
Really, the cursing and temper tantrums are not necessary. Can we discuss this in a mature, adult manner?
Why is the FBI investigation being dragged out so long if there’s nothing there? Why did one of Hillary’s associates plead the 5th?
amk
@Miss Bianca: nah, it’s just another rethug troll with the usual rethug talking points.
Technocrat
@bupalos:
A massive terrorist attack carried out by dozens of Hispanic judges?
Miss Bianca
@Alain the site fixer: Ah, the agony and the ecstacy of fixing computer problems…”yay, the bugs are out!” “Oh, wait…”
Jeff Spender
@bupalos: Also, why the hell would anyone want the FBI or any policing agency to start rushing investigations of citizens?
The Lodger
@Alain the site fixer: the nostril-singe of burned saltpeter
I loved that album.
Baud
@Mike J:
Corner Stone
@Miss Bianca:
I almost lost my sweet bippy that way a few years ago. I sat down to play some poke her and accidentally left my sweet bippy on the table behind my chips. A guy went all in and I said “call” and the dealer scooped my entire stack including my sweet bippy into the pot. It was tense for a few moments but luckily my Jack high held up.
burnspbesq
@Cat48:
Technically, no. In order to lose one’s mind, one must have had one to begin with.
Miss Bianca
@amk: Oh, a sea lion.
@Ben: Go fuck yourself, ‘Ben’. Because the likelihood that no one else is doing so is probably why you’re trolling here.
Shell
I remember how I felt the day after Kerry lost in 2004. It does feel like a kind of grief and it does take a few days to buck yourself up.
El Caganer
@Corner Stone: I don’t know how true it is, but some buddies of mine who are retired Philly cops told me that when he was mayor, Eddie’s best friends were all Republicans. Which is pretty remarkable in a city in which registered Democrats outnumber registered Republicans something like 6-1.
Rex Everything
@Baud:
Taibbi: Politicians tend to do the bidding of powerful interests rather than that of the voters who put them there.
Baud: They won the popular vote, though! End of story!
dmsilev
@Mike J: I’m not following you. Are you perhaps suggesting that Hillary Clinton got more votes than Bernie Sanders?
jl
I am in a foolish mood and making predictions. I’ll repeat my prediction from yesterday, that Sanders formal withdrawal from the race will be almost invisible, something like a press release at 11:59 PM some Friday that he formally suspended his campaign earlier that day. His ‘endorsement’ of HRC will be very low key and easily missed. It will infuriate a certain sort of BJ commenter, and I think we will hear from them about it.
I think Sanders will disappear from view for a certain time, days or a couple of weeks, a self imposed occultation of some sort. Then emerge as a movement leader, rather than someone campaigning for the presidential nomination. And, I think this is pretty much the deal he struck with the Democratic establishment, after they promised to go with some of his progressive platform. I think Sanders sold them on this in two ways. One was that this is the best way to bring as many of his supporters onto the HRC bandwagon as possible, and make him the most effective campaigner against Trump who can appeal to those who won’t have anything to do with the ‘establishment’ this election. And second, he probably told Obama on that street corner phone call I read about in the news something like “Look, we can work this out now, or we can work it out at the convention. Which is it going to be? I got some money and I got nothing else to do with my time.”
So, we will see. As long as the old coot can bring along some votes of die-hard people who hate the establishment, I don’t care how he acts. I think Obama was not particularly happy with Sanders’ statement after the meeting, but he heard some phrases they agreed he would say, particularly ‘meet with Secty Clinton in the days ahead’ and ‘thanks to Barack and Joe for not putting their thumb on the scales’ (which re Obama I don’t think is actually true), and thought to himself ‘OK, Bernie will play ball, but we’re going to have to let him do it his way.’
Just my opinion of course. Sanders has already de facto conceded and taken himself out of the race without an explicit announcement. It’s classier than how Cruz did it, thought that is not saying much.
Ben
Anyone who thinks that this will be a close election (as borne out by the polls) is “trolling”, I see. The Cult of Hillary is very strong here.
MattF
@Corner Stone: You were not the mark.
Baud
@Rex Everything:
It’s a pretty compelling denouement.
Belafon
@Rex Everything: Clinton won by 13% on popular vote, according to Nate. She also won the battle for pledged delegates by a bigger margin than Obama beat her. She won big. The only people really claiming that she didn’t really win are those who don’t understand how Democrats work, and those who think our platform should be determined by the same group that picked Trump: white males freaking out over losing power.
Emma
@Ben: The FBI investigation is being dragged out so long because that is what the FBI does in political situations where they find themselves in a pissing contest with another powerful department, i.e. State. You do realize that if they indict Clinton they will have to equally indict every Sec. since Allbright for some variation of the same thing?
Who took the Fifth and to which question? Believe it or not, taking the 5th is not always indicative of someone having committed a crime.
Yeah, I know. You’ll come back with a slight variation of your original argument, like a good Republican.
burnspbesq
@Ben:
So that when DOJ eventually announces that no grand jury is being convened, folks like you will accept that the process was thorough and fair and will STFU about it.
Punchy
Assumes evidence not in existence.
El Caganer
@Baud: Is that anything like Willard Romney’s ‘self-deportation’ thing?
Matt McIrvin
@Ben: Welcome to post-2000 US politics. Hillary’s lead is comparable to what Obama managed through most of the past couple of cycles. The EV count actually makes it a closer race, but that’s partly because a lot of the state polling is older–Clinton’s numbers seem to be on the upswing.
Partisans fall in line when a nominee is determined, and Trump gained a lot when his competitors dropped out of the race, whereas Hillary has had to deal with a very active and contested primary campaign for the past few weeks.
Victory is not certain. That’s why all the big guns just came out to unite the party. I do like our chances.
Ben
The wishful thinking about the indictment is very strong here. But it’s a 50/50 probability at this point, and no amount of clapping will keep Tinkerbell alive. It’s as equally probable we will have to dump Hillary as it is that the GOP will have to dump Trump.
bupalos
@Ben: Ben is right guys. Also, did we all just forget BENGHAAZZZIIIII??!?!?! That’s not just going away.
I’m now VERY concerned. Ben, what other concerns do you think we should have about Hitlery?
Rex Everything
@Mike J: ?? Neither Taibbi’s article nor anything I posted urged the delegitimization HRC’s win in any way.
The simple fact is there exist other contexts in which you can talk about political misrepresentation in a democracy.
Emma
@jl: Then his own followers will fry him. Well, that or invent some more conspiracies as to how their hero is being martyred.
burnspbesq
@Ben:
Do you actually not understand that national polls are irrelevant, because we don’t have a national election for President?
El Caganer
@dmsilev: She really did get more votes? Shut my mouth.
Betty Cracker
@dww44: Supreme Court.
Rex Everything
@Belafon: OK, yeah. A lot of you guys clearly have a big argument going with somebody. I think I’ll get out of your way now and let you have it.
Jeff Spender
@Ben: The doctors think he has a 50/50 chance of living, but there’s only a 10% chance of that.
Rex Everything
@Baud: [just had to stick around to laugh at your belief that this is the denouement.]
jl
@Baud:
” Up till this year, I thought it meant that the person with the most votes should win.
Believe me, I’d prefer the opposite rule. ”
I heard the cops told you to stop caging campaign contributions behind the Quick Stop after dark. Isn’t that the biggest problem for your campaign now? Your donor base has been obliterated.
Edit: The Baud! 2916! campaign should never have gotten into that fight over the dropped fiver out by the dumpster with those hobos from Elko. That will go down as a critical mistake of the campaign.
Miss Bianca
@jl: I find your prediction pretty well within the parameters of mapped reality with one exception: I don’t think Bernie Sanders is going to re-emerge as a “movement leader”. I think he’s going to sulk in his tent like Achilles and a host of Patrocluses – Elizabeth Warren among them – are going to don that armor and do battle in his stead. That’s *my* prediction – that and a quarter will get you a gumball.
bupalos
@burnspbesq: But the polls say she’s only up by 3 points, so that makes me really concerned about all this stuff about the assassination of Vince Foster. Have you guys heard about that?
SiubhanDuinne
@Mike J:
Am totally hearing this in the voice of John Cleese.
Chyron HR
@Ben:
Oh, I see the problem. You think that if there are two possible options, they each must automatically have a 50% chance of occurring.
catclub
@dmsilev:
What has become of Cruz lately? Has he endorsed Trump? I don’t think he has.
Baud
@Rex Everything: That depends on the actions of people who are not me.
jl
@Emma: I would like to know what explains this odd HRC bitter nihilistic winner syndrome at BJ blog.
Baud
@jl: There’ll be a readout and a debrief at the appropriate time.
catclub
@Chyron HR: As if naming one ( of infinitely many) possibilities makes it equally probable.
I could stay here or I could fly to the moon. 50/50
I could stay here or I could fly to the moon, or I could fly to Japan. 33/33/33
jl
@Miss Bianca: I fear that there is a good chance that will happen. If so, better for Sanders to fade away with little notice.
chopper
@Ben:
people are saying ‘it’s over’ regarding the dem primary, not the general election.
Baud
@jl: I get the impression that social media was a nasty experience for a lot of people. I don’t use it, so I’m not really affected.
SiubhanDuinne
@jl:
Give Bernie this much, at least he didn’t give Jane the elbow and then punch her in the face.
jl
@Baud: Will they let you use your mugshot for the campaign? Never to late for some ‘earned media’.
catclub
@SiubhanDuinne: Or Jamie Lee Curtis. “Actually, they do read philosophy, they just don’t understand it.”
oldgold
By next week the polls will show 10%+ lead for HC. Bank it.
Plus, the polls are markedly under representing the Latino vote. That explains, in part, how they miss forecast the Democratic California Primary.
Cleos
I have no objection to his staying the race; people in states with late primaries should be given the opportunity to weigh in.
What I do object to is the attitude that the Democratic party owes him something and that the party leaders and Sec Clinton should give him anything he wants, not to mention the dog whistles to his more fanatical supporters about a “messy” convention. Any pleasant illusions I had about Sen Sanders I lost a few months ago.
Betty Cracker
@hovercraft:
I think that would be an excellent way to drive real change. Don’t know if Sanders will avail himself of that opportunity since he wasn’t a Democrat himself until very recently, but I’d love to see him tell his followers that he and they already profoundly changed the agenda of one of the two major parties in the country (this isn’t strictly true, but wevs) and that the only way to make their vision a reality is by getting involved in the party at the local level and supporting Democrats across the board. It has the added advantage of being true!
chopper
@Ben:
shut up, doug.
amk
@Ben: theory of probability in three words – you know jacksquat.
jl
@Baud: The pathos and the pity of the Baud! 2016! sways every human heart. A person would have a heart of stone to not either cry or ROFALMO, depending on the mood. Therefore, Baud! 2016! has not been touched by all the ill-feeling.
Corner Stone
I wish they would stuff Haley Barbour back into whatever mudhole they catfished him out of. On MSNBC two days in a row for my sweet bippy’s sake!
Baud
@catclub: I’ve tried this with the lottery. It doesn’t work.
Enhanced Voting Techinques
@Hitless: Bush squeeked a win in 2000 because he got an unuseally high Hispanic vote. No way is Trump repeating that.
Feebog
@Ben:
I am going to assume you are not a concern troll, but just someone who looks at the latest national poll and takes it as gospel. Go to a site like Real Clear Politics displaying average polling numbers over weeks. Then discount every Rasmussen poll because they are deliberately putting their thumbs on the scale for Trump at this point. Then consider that none of this polling reflects the bump Clinton is certain to get from the close of the primaries, that won’t show up for a week or more. Then consider that polls in June, before the conventions, don’t really tell us much. Then consider the demographics Trump is up against. Fewer old white voters, more minority voters, and a larger gender gap. So yes, those of us that actually look at the numbers and do the math are feeling pretty good right now. That said, Hillary, and the rest of us, should run like we are ten points down. GOTV, donate, and push back on the pro-Trump trolls on social media.
Socraticsilence
@Cacti:
I’ve come around to thinking he can do what Hillary did in 08– concede a few days after the final vote is cast.
Cacti
@Enhanced Voting Techinques:
It amuses me to no end that Trump thinks he can put California into play when 57.7% of the population is other than non-Hispanic white.
ETA: And about 38% are Hispanic or Latino.
Cleos
@Jeff Spender: @Jeff Spender:
And what’s worse, you didn’t try to change the subject to Trump.
@
: I witnessed America elect GW Bush twice.
Oh, I can top that. I witnessed America elect Ronald Reagan twice.
SFAW
@Ben:
If you’re going to crap on someone (“smug complacency”), you might consider getting a clue or grip. “Smug complacency” gave us Reagan? Right, except for the almost-500 EV that he got. And the only “complacency” exhibited in 2000 was by the Gore braintrust led by Warren Christopher.
But outside of that, you’re spot on.
Just One More Canuck
@burnspbesq:
jl
@Cacti: From people I talk politics with around CA, Trump has destroyed himself with pretty much every racial, ethnic and religious minority in CA with the anti-immigration garbage he’s spouted. No way he can pivot back for anyone I have talked with. Vietnamese, Cambodians, Sikhs, Palestinians, Muslim and Christian, Hispanics, Chinese, Trump is dead to them.
Hope Trump campaigns hard in CA. It will be a complete waste of time and money, IMHO.
Miss Bianca
@Corner Stone: I can see I’m not going to be living down that “sweet bippy” thing for a while… ; ) I blame “Laugh-In”. Which I am old enough – just barely – to have caught on the teevee machine back in the day. ah well…what does Mr. Bennet say in Pride and Prejudice? “For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?”
Jeffro
OT, because I get tired of Bernie-related stuff but almost never get tired of Richard Sherman: somebody had to say it!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/06/09/seahawks-star-richard-sherman-wants-billionaires-to-pay-for-their-own-stadiums/
The way viewing trends and sky-high ticket prices are going, there’s no point in building stadiums anymore….I guarantee you by 2040, someone will build a facility barely bigger than the field with the only seating being luxury boxes for a thousand folks, while everyone else watches the ‘regular’ or VR broadcast at home (for a fee/big fee respectively, of course).
And for your VR experience – you can have your choice of “drone view” from just above and behind the QB’s head, or from the 50-yard-line, no prob! Imagine five million fans all paying $10 to see the game from “drone view” – hel-LO, revenue stream!
Cacti
@jl:
Somebody convinced Dubya in 2000 that he had a shot in CA, so he campaigned hard there and lost by 1 million votes.
Emma
@jl: Speaking for myself only, months of being called stupid as a brick wall, a corporate whore, and all those other lovely forms of affection by the BernieBros because I supported Hillary. And I was on the fringes. Other Hillary supporters got it worse. And then told, repeatedly, that I must be very careful of their fee-fees and that their votes should count for more than those of the rest of us.
Nothing pisses me off more than people who dish it out but whine when they have to take it.
Brachiator
Bernie can do what he likes, but his continued pretense at being the potential nominee is a pointless distraction. He’s done. He certainly is not going to win the DC primary, so you cannot say that his presence on that ballot will be a last hurrah.
He could spend his time better getting his supporters to embrace Hillary.
I was listening to someone from the Nation interview about the California primary and its aftermath. He touted Warren as a potential VP pick and went on about how essential it was that either she or Bernie go to one of the battleground states, because the people there are so receptive to hearing a critique of the economic system.
This continues to be the mind numbing stupidity of this segment of the left. People want jobs, and these clowns want to navel gaze in abstractions.
MattF
@Cacti: Once upon a time, southern CA was a right-wing paradise, and St. Reagan was leading the faithful.
Death Panel Truck
@Mike J: Actually, I voted for Clinton from home, thanks to Washington’s vote-by-mail. That way I didn’t have to walk my lazy ass to a polling place. ;-)
Technocrat
@Ben:
Political betting is illegal in the US, but it’s quite legal in Ireland. Current odds on the Presidential election are:
Clinton – 1:3
Trump – 5:2
So, even money says Clinton is 7.5 times as likely to win as Drumpf. If you really consider it a 50/50 proposition, you stand to make some serious money betting against her. Time to refinance!
ETA: Link to betting market: http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/us-politics?ev_oc_grp_ids=791149
ThresherK (GPad)
@trollhattan: NPR found someone not totally on board with
Hillarythe next leading Democrat? That doesn’t sound like NPR.How many Berners pledging to write-in, or going over to Trump, did they interview, for “balance” against this one voter?
Aqualad08
Bernie spokeswoman Nina Turner Brown was on the TV this morning telling me Warren “earned no brownie points” for slamming Trump. As I was listening to her, I wondered what saying something like this actually did to help her candidate. I couldn’t think of anything. I was trying to be objective, but it just seemed like spleen venting at this point, as if a Warren endorsement would have turned the tide for Bernie.
That’s why I just want this to be over. I understand the whole “giving space” thing, but getting angry at Warren for supporting the nominee is counter-productive any way you slice it.
Baud
@Aqualad08:
That’s kind of cute.
SFAW
@bupalos:
Jesus H. Christ on a shingle with cheese, it wasn’t an assassination — it was a straight-up murder. He found out, during his torrid love affair with Hitlary, that she was a lesbian — or was it that she was transgender? Or a Goldwater Girl? Who can remember all that stuff? — and so she had to kill him before he squawked to the MSM. Hitlary done it with her own hands, and dragged poor Vincent to Fort Marcy Park all by herself.
Now “some people” say “hey, she was nowhere near DC when he died.” They’re forgetting that she used Barack Obama’s time machine to take care of temporal issues. And because she did, he blackmailed her in 2008, which is why she threw the primary to him. Now that he’s term-limited, no longer any need to blackmail her.
OK? Got it?
Mike J
Clinton;’s first speech since clinching on now:
http://www.c-span.org/video/?410914-1/hillary-clinton-addresses-planned-parenthood-action-fund
Planned Parenthood Action Fund. She just said, “Thank you.”
Belafon
@Ben: You obviously don’t know how investigations work. I suspect that if you do research on how many investigations that turn into indictments, you’ll find that it’s really small, somewhere in the single percent range.
Now, I would say the odds of you freaking out about how Obama squashed the investigation if the FBI doesn’t indict is well above 50/50.
MattF
@SFAW: My tin hat is pulsing with happiness.
Jeffro
@SFAW:
Don’t forget Michelle’s trained ninja assassination squad, armed with sharpened copies of the Whitey tape…
Baud
@Mike J:
A little short. Maybe she is getting complacent.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Because the candidate who was once praised to the skies for never having run a negative ad now seems psychologically incapable of conducting anything but a purely negative campaign? Because he seems to have convinced himself and a whole lot of his supporters that Hillary Clinton isn’t just insufficiently liberal, but is actually inherently malevolent and the true obstacle to political progress? Because he seems to be incapable and/or unwilling to acknowledge the importance of down-ticket races (really? Russ Feingold, potentially one percent of the Senate, is the only candidate Worthy of the Endorsement and efforts of His Holiness?– which efforts consist of sending out an email and sharing a list. I’d like somebody to ask St Bernard exactly why Maggie Hassan, Tammy Duckworth, Ted Strickland and Patty Judge are Un-Worthy.) Because he’s an asshole, and seems incapable and/or unwilling to change?
Mike J
“51 years ago this week, thanks to a Planned Parenthood employee named Estelle Griswold…..”
You need to hear this speech.
SFAW
@Enhanced Voting Techinques:
Depends on your definition of “unusually high” is. For Deadbeat Donnie, 10 percent of the Latino vote might be considered “unusually high.”
Brachiator
@Cacti:
But of course Trump claims that Hispanics love him. On the other hand, in the contest between Sanders and Clinton, Clinton led in the 10 congressional districts in the state with the highest share of Latinos among eligible voters. Other groups don’t much care for him either. Unless something stupendous happens to change the political landscape, I would say it’s advantage Clinton.
ThresherK (GPad)
@Cacti: Oh, that was sweet. Wondering who’s gonna point and laff at Trump in the press corps if he tries bullshit like that?
Richard Mayhew
@oldgold: I’ll bet Clinton +8 in HuffPo Pollster average medium smoothing by 6/18
Cacti
@MattF:
In 1984, 45% of California’s Hispanic vote went for Reagan. Then Pete Wilson and prop 187 happened.
It was Trump-style politics that turned CA into a solid blue state.
Josie
@dww44:
This is a man who, in spite of everyone but the pope telling him to apologize for his racist attack on a federal judge, chose to double and triple down on it. What makes these esteemed advisors think that they can have any influence on him if he is actually elected?
Lynn Dee
Speaking for myself, I think Bernie would be more helpful in the general election campaign as a thoughtful progressive who’s raised some important issues than as a deranged fruit basket scowling from the sidelines.
SFAW
@MattF:
Then my work here is done, citizen.
Hi-yo, Silver! Away!
GregB
@jl:
He is arrogant and politically foolish enough to believe whatever political spin doctor who sells him in this rabbit chase. May the money flow to them in copious amounts to be gleefully Jeb Bushed away down the shitter.
Punchy
Vince Foster? That rumor is bananas.
rikyrah
What?
No Muhammad Ali funeral thread?
Brachiator
@Miss Bianca:
have you seen the new Jane Austen inspired “Love and Friendship?” Very fun movie based on an early Austen novella, “Lady Susan.” One character is a genial dim bulb, somewhat reminiscent of Dick Martin’s “Laugh In” persona.
60s TV and Jane Austen? You bet your sweet bippy.
And that’s the truth.
D58826
@Cleos: Better yet I saw America elect Tricky Dick twice. And not having learned it’s lesson elected both Reagan, and W. twice. One would have thought that after pulling the plug on Poppy Bush the voters would have had more sense. Oh well.
Mike J
…
Matt McIrvin
@SFAW: I’ve seen a few polls actually giving Trump a Mitt Romney-level share of the Hispanic vote, more or less the crazification factor of 27%. (Which is a lot less than GWB managed.)
SFAW
@Brachiator:
I’m hoping that someone will tell him that “mojado” is a term of endearment, and he should use that in his speeches to predominantly-Latino audiences, or perhaps when he gets interviewed by Jorge Ramos.
WarMunchkin
@Aqualad08: It’s nice to know that the attacks on Warren come from the very top of the Sanders campaign. We now have a wide swath of liberals who believe that Elizabeth Warren is an agent of Wall Street. fml.
Cacti
@SFAW:
Or that when Mexican-Americans call him “cabron” it means “buddy”, and “pendejo” means “great leader”.
SFAW
@Punchy:
You oughta get flamed for that one.
jl
@GregB:
” He is arrogant and politically foolish enough to believe whatever political spin doctor who sells him in this rabbit chase. May the money flow to them in copious amounts to be gleefully Jeb Bushed away down the shitter. ”
don’t talk about Baud! 2016! that way. Really rude.
different-church-lady
@Jeff Spender:
That is the one principle no “true” progressive can tolerate.
D58826
@Belafon: As was discussed in an earlier thread, if there had been any hint of a possible indictment the WH would have been informed long before this. Yesterday would not have happened. Someone would have whispered in Hillary’s ear that there were urgent family matters that she should attend to and therefore should retire from public life. An indictment at this point would blow the political system sky high.
Cacti
@different-church-lady:
The fruits of the “everyone gets a trophy for showing up” philosophy.
SFAW
@Cacti:
Outstanding. Now if only we could find a way to get that vital information to him.
Josie
@Cacti:
Chuckling here. I was thinking of exactly those terms but wasn’t brave enough to type them.
goblue72
@aimai: Well fuck you too.
different-church-lady
@Rex Everything:
Voters, Matt? You mean, like, the things of which there were more of for another candidate? Power to them, you’re saying?
goblue72
The overweening butthurt by Clinton supporters over what was a pretty mild primary campaign just shows what a bunch of front-runners a lot of Clinton supporters are. And the hand-wringing over how it would “hurt” Clinton in the general just shows what a bunch of political amateurs most of you are.
starscream
What’s up with the consistent 20-25% undecided in every national poll? Unusual, isn’t it?
Miss Bianca
@Brachiator: No, I knew about “Pride and Prejudice and Zombies”, but had no idea someone had actually filmed “Love and Freindship” (sic, actually!). This wonderful world!
different-church-lady
@Cacti: I think you’ve got it backwards: in a theoretically perfect “progressive” universe, nobody gets a trophy.
Cat48
@Keith G:
My quarrel with Bernie started long before his campaign. I’m still upset with him running around to every radio or TV show to tell everyone that “Obama is a failure and he must be,primaried in 2012.” I really like my president and his family, I took it very personally. After Obama was reelected, he was frequently on msnbc to continue,his message that Obama is failing.
different-church-lady
@goblue72: You gotta admit it’s hard to avoid being a front-runner when you’re in front the entire time.
TriassicSands
@amk:
I read those numbers the other day and they concerned me. A drop of eight million Democratic voters (from 36 to 28 million) is not a good thing — especially when Sanders is supposedly bringing so many new voters into the party. It’s hard to put a positive spin on a drop of nearly 25% in turnout.
Likewise for Hillary getting two million fewer votes than she got in 2008. Sanders is a lot less of a problem than is getting Democrats to get off their lazy butts and vote. I’m much less worried about when Sanders calls it quits than I am in why, when confronted by the specter of a Donald Trump (or a Ted Cruz) presidency, Democrats still couldn’t get motivated to vote (in record numbers).
different-church-lady
@Cat48: There is the tactful, discrete way of saying “Your fly is down.” And then there’s the way where you bellow it across the room.
Bernie’s the guy who’s gonna take the latter option every single time.
Brachiator
@SFAW:
I don’t think even a gabacho as arrogant as Trump would be so stupid to fall for this.
On the other hand, it would be interesting to see him do a sit-down interview with Ramos, much as he did with Megyn Kelly.
SFAW
@goblue72:
Well, thank FSM that you’re here to raise the level of professionalism.
Corner Stone
@SFAW:
I don’t know. I’m split on the topic.
Kathleen
@trollhattan: NPR always managed to find a “Democrat” who loves Bernie. Always.
Corner Stone
@Brachiator:
Quite a different outcome when Ramos starts crossing and uncrossing his legs ala Sharon Stone.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
ah yes, our middle-aged middle manager is back to tell us about all his incredible and incredibly successful grass roots activism that he’s too modest to be specific about.
Is he still pretending to be the forty-four year old voice of the yoot’s?
different-church-lady
@marduk:
I was about to say, “No, I just want to see him stop undermining the party and the presumptive nominee in little ways,” but then I realized you weren’t talking about me.
pseudonymous in nc
Obvious concern troll is obvious.
Trump thinks that he can have 50% of the Dem votes in California thrown out because they were shoddy votes cast by shoddy people, but they can come back and vote for him next time.
Rand Careaga
@amk: Ayup, ol’ Ben’s definitely posting his pious expressions of concern from under a bridge. All that’s missing is the assurance that he’s a lifelong member of the “Democrat party.”
different-church-lady
@Eric U.:
All they’re doing is what Bernie told them to do.
Applejinx
@trollhattan: Or, it’s much like the rhetoric all sides have directed at all sides this entire time.
You folks here have repeatedly said some SHIT about Bernie. It doesn’t matter anymore but I’ll never forget. Every now and then I’d pin one of you down and force you to weasel out, most notably Whig lately saying ‘Bernie stopped talking about any of his economic justice stuff’. Did you believe that because you wanted to believe it? It was an obvious fucking lie, and he backed down right away because we only lie when we can get away with it easily.
As far as giving it time, we do indeed have the most passionate Sanders supporters (male AND female) in profound cognitive dissonance. They will happily mistrust Clinton all day long, and she earned that through changing and becoming more like what they want (ironically). Because she isn’t 90s Hils, all they have to do is claim she is and ‘somebody has to be lying’ which is stupid but easily understood.
Obama’s had years to make non purity pony decisions, but he’s more trusted, so it’s more painful to knee-jerk conclude ‘OMG, he is Clinton’s puppet now!’ (after beating her? wut?)
Warren is TRUSTED. So right now, the deadenders are freaking out. This cannot have happened, yet it did. It makes no sense that Warren would be a Clinton puppet and Wall Street tool, and YET if you refuse to question ANY assumptions about Hils and the state of the Democrats you are forced to conclude that, pod-people-like, ‘they’ got Warren.
I’ve had a bit of success by suggesting it’s a path to a President Warren (something all these folks openly yearn for). If Hils gambles and makes Warren veep (bold, but this time around she’s doing well by bold moves) that provides a narrative for a kind of incrementalism AND a narrative that Clinton’s ready to pay out the wazoo in order to win over the Berniacs.
dww44
@Betty Cracker: I’m a bit north of you but way below the Mason Dixon and am totally surrounded by Republicans. I don’t have to convince the few Dems I know to vote for HRC, but I want to pushback with all the GOP supporting friends and relatives that having capable people in his administration will not make Trump an OK President who’s not going to do stupid stuff. Maybe my response ought to invoke Dick Cheney but he’s not viewed in their world as being necessarily bad and/or dangerous.
Cermet
@D58826: No chance of an indictment at the Government level – none; since Hillary had no intent to act criminally, how would they is prove this? So, again, as for a chance for an indictment – none at all. That said, the Feds MUST drag this out as long as possible so that no local level Federal DA tries to indict – their are Thug DA’s out there that might try that if this nonsense is stopped too soon.
El Caganer
@Jeffro: So when does Larry Johnson trot out the Manny Tape?
Uncle Ebeneezer
@Chip Daniels: I can sympathize with what Bernie fans are going through now. I’ve never been good at taking losses either directly or even as a fan/supporter. Everything you say about the grieving, healing etc., is totally true. BUT…that is on THEM. If they need to tap out of FB, political blogs, discussions with friends or whatever else to heal, then they should do so. These calls for everyone else to somehow make our public discussions or even our private FB into safe spaces for bitter Bernie fans are not justified, imo. It’s especially annoying because this whole primary from day one has been continually centered around the feelings of Bernie fans and their perceived sleights. We can’t point out problems with Bernie’s record because it’s not fair to Bernie fans who we’ll need. We can’t criticize the way he’s campaigned because it’s not fair to Bernie fans. We can’t point out the large racial disparity between the two campaigns and the explanations from Black pundits/writers for why that is, because it’s unfair to Bernie fans. We can’t point out the toxic behavior of Bernie Bros because it’s unfair to Bernie fans. We can’t even use the term “BernieBro” without a multi-paragraph disclaimer that #NotAll Bernie fans are bad and most of them are great, yada, yada, yada, or else it’s unfair to Bernie fans. We can’t discuss the valid reasons that Bernie dropping out and endorsing Hillary would be better for the Party and the Country than his continuing to fight, because it’s unfair to Bernie fans…Sorry but some of us are getting a bit tired of it. I could have made a fortune investing in the Kid Gloves market before the Primary had I known how often they would be demanded by these Revolutionaries. It’s especially irritating given the very real oppression and violence that Black, Latinx, Women, LGBT people are currently suffering and will suffer even more so under Trump, that we still have to center our discussions around the feelings of a mostly-White voters.
I have reasonable Bernie Fan friends in real life but I also know some of the unhinged, conspiracy variety. I wish them all the best in facing the reality of their loss and coming to terms with it and I hope they will see the light and vote for Hillary and down-ticket Dems, but I sure am getting tired of calls for the rest of us to walk on egg-shells in order to protect their feelings. Hillary has moved slightly left on some of their high priority issues, Bernie will probably get some sort of position of power if he plays his cards right, and yet they still whine about how nobody gives them any respect. They need to understand that they are but one faction of many, of the Left and that they aren’t entitled to get everything they want just because they are passionate about their candidate. As others have noted here, if passionate Bernie supporters would stop demonizing the Party and process and claiming everything was rigged, they would get more respect. But they can’t continue to do so and expect everyone to applaud and thank them for it.
Applejinx
@dww44:
“would have a great cabinet of experienced advisors”
to fire.
different-church-lady
@Ben: Fucking polling averages, how do they work?
Miss Bianca
@Corner Stone: I think you guys should just peel out of here on this one.
Amir Khalid
I wouldn’t worry too much about Bernie. In four days he closes out his campaign and fades into the background. The majority of his supporters, being rational Democrats who don’t want to let a vulgar uncouth proto-Fascist bigot claim the Oval Office, will close ranks behind Hillary. The Bernie-or-bust, Never-Hillary minority — well, let them go where they will; it’s probably not worth the effort to chase them. nless he decides to start sabotaging Hillary out of spite (unlikely, I think) or making absurd demands that overestimate his leverage with the party, his turn in the spotlight is over.
It’s disappointing that Bernie still seems to see himself mostly as a Democratic party outsider, “caucusing” with it rather than being a part of it. (I’ve never seen the term used outside the US.) Supporting fellow Democratic candidates is at most a very late afterthought for him, who was until this week contending to be its de facto leader. I can see where a lifelong independent pol might need time to make that adjustment, but during a run for president was not the time to do it.
Origuy
@dww44: Trump could have the smartest people in the world advising him, but he wouldn’t listen to them.
different-church-lady
@Agorabum:
Fixed.
gwangung
Actually, I think the longer Bernie draws it out, the worse it may get for his movement. There’s a greater chance people in general will associate his behavior with the stands on his issue and make it easier for them to dismiss the substance of what he’s working towards.
D58826
@Cermet: That seems reasonable. It also keeps the House witch hunters on the sidelines since they can’t get at any documents until the FBI investigation is over.
different-church-lady
@Ben:
What did hand wringing get us?
hovercraft
@Baud: @Aqualad08:
She drank the kool aid and hasn’t been the same since. The only surrogate who has been more unhinged is Weaver.
Since Obama endorsed she’s been more grounded but not by much. On Wednesday she was bitching about people telling her about the math, because apparently this is about more than just math. Huh? It’s about the people and the movement. I want just one reporter to ask about the people who voted for Hillary and their will, don’t we count? I had a choice and my choice won. I did not vote for him or his platform because I don’t think it would ever be implemented as set out, and if dog forbid he compromised his acolytes would howl traitor, right? Or are you only a sellout if you’re not Bernie.
Trollhattan
@ThresherK (GPad):
They were at a D.C. Bernie rally, so all of them, Katie.
Ruckus
@aimai:
Seconded or whatevered it is by now.
Brachiator
@Corner Stone:
Then again, we might see a side of Trump that previously has been well hidden.
Trollhattan
@Applejinx:
I see your problem.
D58826
shots fired at Dallas Love field. No details yet
cckids
@Kathleen:
F*cking NPR, yesterday, right after President Obama’s endorsement came out, spent less than 30 seconds talking about that & then a 10-minute replay of an indignant, breathless discussion about the “13 Hours” Benghaaaaaazi film. (replayed because it came out on DVD Tues)
Because “news” I guess. I had steam coming out my ears, not only because it was about 112 degrees in my car.
jl
@gwangung: Since I am in a foolish predictive mode, I predict that Sanders will draw it out precisely until polls open next Tuesday in DC. His promise to fight the revolution seems to have implicitly shifted from taking some kind of big fight to the convention to letting every state and DC exercise their right to vote for the Democratic nominee.
In his statement yesterday, Sanders said he would soon call HRC to have a little chit-chat. I doubt the timing and content of that will be public. If Sanders and Obama/DNC struck a deal yesterday, then after Sanders and HRC talk, most of what the public sees will be political Kabuki theatre designed to keep as many Sanders people on board as possible.
Commenters here, who have never won and election, earned a single vote for, or held political office can indulge themselves in the weird self-righteous bitter bile that HRC victory seems to have produced and blithely curse the Sanders dead enders goodbye. But I doubt the person who wants to be the first woman president in US history, and a self-righteous old coot who would like to be a big shot in the majority, in the next Senate feel the same way.
hovercraft
@Brachiator:
And she beat him by 13 points with a lot of the young voters of color going for BS, imagine what her margin will be against Trump. Many of those young people protesting his events are young Latinos. Given that they hate with the intensity of a thousand suns, they’re not voting for him or staying home.
Monala
@Cacti: Recently at another site someone posted a link to an upcoming conference on economic inequality, in which most of the speakers were Sanders supporters. Someone else pointed out that the speaker roster was almost entirely white. In response, the OP argued, “but they’re all working class!” I scratched my head at that one. The entire speaker’s roster consisted of people with advanced degrees who work at various institutes and think tanks. Sounds like a bunch of middle or upper middle class people to me. This doesn’t mean their knowledge isn’t valuable, but you can hardly argue that they’re working class.
hovercraft
@SFAW:
My Spanish dictionary says that ‘pendejo’ means my friend.
Applejinx
@TriassicSands:
Here’s a suggestion: people are too poor to vote. Voting day is not a national holiday, especially not primary voting days.
People are working seven days a week, or on call, or working flexible schedules made up by their bosses that morning. If they don’t show up the boss just fires them and gets someone else.
People are so distracted by worrying about money that they can’t remember from one day to the next what day is the day to vote, or where to go and do that, or what the requirements are for doing so.
People are too poor to vote or take much time to learn how the world works, so they’re prone to get swept up in Bernie or Trump candidacies and make a lot of noise when they can. Personally, I’m pleased so many of them got excited for Bernie. In the absence of Bernie I think Trump would’ve got more traction, because by GOD would it be nice to blow a whistle and yell at Congress, ‘Everybody out of the pool!’. And then set it on fire.
The government is supposed to keep the lives of citizens from spinning too far out of control, otherwise what good is it? Particularly with regard to Republicans, we have really bad government, and the stakes get higher so quickly.
People are not living lives of leisure where they can just go learn about the rules of things and then cast educated, unpressured votes. Some of the lack of voter participation is because people are under so much pressure that voting becomes a luxury.
A lot of the Balloon Juice retirees, even those who aren’t super wealthy, don’t have a clear enough sense of this to understand.
On the bright side, liberal governance will absolutely help. But Obama hasn’t been able to do enough about it what with all the Republicans.
D58826
follow up – probably domestic violence. suspect detained.
Reggie Mantle
I always appreciate when people like Doug! provide a measured, sane and gracious post like this.
I’m mostly grateful because the nasty, spiteful and hateful Bernie bashing that follows keeps me from getting too hopeful that Clinton’s supporters won’t manage to fuck this up.
Kropadope
@hovercraft:
We can’t take this for granted though. Some may not be following the election all too carefully. One of my Latino friends said he wanted to vote for Trump. Making the case that Trump was a terrible racist wasn’t difficult at all and he changed his mind, going so far as to say he’d likely vote for Hillary. Still, the case needs to be made to as many people as possible. We can’t just assume everyone will know.
El Caganer
@different-church-lady: You didn’t see the video of Bernie’s sneak attack on Hillary’s toxic trolls?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx8-J66yawM
Chyron HR
@jl:
Whereas there was nothing bilious or self-righteous about running a campaign that consisted almost entirely of “Those musta been some pretty amazing speeches, har har har! (waggles finger)”
Reggie Mantle
@jl:
PUMA (Party Unity My Ass) is back, this time it’s the battle cry of the people whose candidate has won the nomination, but seem determined to alienate enough voters to lose in the general because mean old Bernie hurt their fee-fees.
Kropadope
@D58826: Actually, this thread has been pretty good in its entirety. The criticisms of Bernie have been relevant and accurate, without an excess of hand wringing about an imaginary 3rd party run. Polite dissent and discussion think of beauty.
Jack the Second
@TriassicSands: If you want to reassure yourself (always a dangerous thing to do in an election), you could note that 2008 was between Barack-fucking-Obama and Hillary-fucking-Clinton. Each turned out 18 million supporters.
2016 is between Hillary-fucking-Clinton and … Bernie Sanders. And O’Malley for awhile! Hillary still turned out her 16 million primary voters (down a couple million because she didn’t play the primary too hard). It wasn’t her job to turn out an extra 6 million for Bernie, so they just stayed home.
hovercraft
@TriassicSands:
Even though the media hyped the race, everyone knew after super Tuesday that it was over. The media wanted a story line and they loved one that said Hillary is weak she can’t beat a socialist. As we all learned back in ’08 once you fall that far behind it’s virtually impossible to catch up. Welcome to the world of proportional allocation. People voted in record numbers last time because the race was razor close. This year it was obvious fairly early that it was over. BS was looking for a miracle and the media for a payday.
Joel
@Ben: Pollster has Clinton +5.6 in aggregate, +2.7 in Florida, +3.1 in Ohio, +3.9 in Pennsylvania, etc.
The polling has been sporadic at best, so I wouldn’t put a ton of weight into those margins. More emphasis than single poll cherry picking, however.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@bupalos: No, never did, Please tell us ALL about it. I bet it’s completely true and very, very interesting.
jacy
@Ben:
Innumeracy is just mathematical illiteracy and as pernicious as scientific illiteracy.
Gravity? Just a theory. It’s these magic rocks in my pocket that keep me from flying off into space.
different-church-lady
@Reggie Mantle: THE PROJECTION! IT BURNS!
different-church-lady
@Ben: Dear boy, I kindly invite you to fuck off, and take your psych-ops with you.
dogwood
@TriassicSands:
This isn’t 2008, with W in the WH, War, recession and a host of calamities.
Also in 08 Barack and Hillary were the story with McCain trying feebly to get in the mix. This time democrats have president they love in the WH, and Trump has been the story. Given those facts, I’m not at all surprised that fewer dems voted this time. And there’s really no correlation between primary turnout and general election turnout anyway. But if you want to stress out, go ahead.
Kropadope
@bupalos:
Unfortunately for the Republicans, they likely won’t be able to get the hundreds of millions of dollars that yet another decade long investigation would cost through Congress with a veto-proof majority. They also don’t have a decade to investigate again before the election, of course.
jl
@Chyron HR: The old coot was successful enough that he can make trouble out in the real political world with real consequences, while people like us can madly type away at our computers whining about the candidates, and make exactly zero difference in the real world.
There is a difference between the two, like it or not. Or maybe you can show me your millions of dollars of contributions, millions of votes, millions of followers (deluded or not) who may influence a very important election, and ability to get a meeting with the president.
I’ve never seen such a bunch of bilious spiteful bitter victors in my life. The childishness on display is disappointing.
I’ve made a number of predictions over the last two days. You folks will have plenty of material to jump all over me if I am shown to be wrong. So, I’m out of the HRC/Sanders fight club for awhile until we see what happens. I’ve been skipping those posts, but my willpower weakened for some reason.
Kropadope
@Ben: 50/50 isn’t probable, it’s a toss-up. Also, I think it’s even less probable than that. Per the State Department, they didn’t give State Department employees the appropriate tools back then and people would have to file hard copies of their emails. This was always the case before Hillary, but by the time Kerry got in, the State Department had the proper infrastructure for dealing with emails correctly. I don’t know, but I would venture to guess that HRC had a hand in solving this problem while at state.
Reggie Mantle
@different-church-lady:
“Projection” has become just a fancy way to say “I know you are, but what am I?”
Pee-wee-ism runs rampant.
dogwood
@hovercraft:
I would say that in 08 after Wisconson Hillary’s path became pretty narrow. But we played it out for shits and giggles.
Reggie Mantle
@jl:
Predicted response: some variant on “I am rubber and you are glue,” etc.
Iowa Old Lady
I’m not going to scroll through to see what fool brought up Vince Foster, but surely that’s snark. Or we going back to shooting cantaloupes in the back yard?
Corner Stone
@jacy:
My magic rocks at the end of the drive keep the dragon from attacking my house.
J R in WV
@Hitless:
Actually last election (2014) I did phone banking for a woman running for US Senate. Several people I talked to weren’t going to vote for either senatorial candidate (they were both women) because their Bible teaches that it is wrong for a woman to be set above men. So they can’t be a Senator, that would set them above men – which is wrong in many ways, not least because Senators just have one vote in general elections.
But there people won’t vote for a woman for President, ever. Never! So that is an issue, depending upon how many of these insane people who allow their lives to be ruled by shepherds from 2500 years ago bother to vote in these modern things called elections.
Corner Stone
@Iowa Old Lady:
I’ve been thinking about making a nice watermelon and cantaloupe salad, with a light lemon vinaigrette and some basil and mint.
It’s hot af so that sounds nice and refreshing.
different-church-lady
@Reggie Mantle:
Well, look at the big brain on Reggie!
dogwood
@Jack the Second:
So true. This time she had a staff that didn’t waste time and money or default into panic mode. It was interesting that this time she, like Obama in 08 didn’t try to win every news cycle and have surrogates on every show. The funny thing about that was that neither she nor Obama were regulars on cable or the Sunday morning shows. She’s not a camera hog by nature. She really looks calm and happy this time, and hats off to Robby Mook for putting together a no drama production. Now they’ve got to keep it up.
El Caganer
@different-church-lady: I really don’t get the sense of personal injury here. I mean, if some person gets on some blog (maybe this one?), announces that (s)he is a Proud Democrat and a firm Hillary supporter, then proceeds to suggest that the best way to kick off the Democratic convention is for Hillary to ride on a tank from City Hall to the Wells Fargo Center, waving at the crowds and dragging Bernie on a rope behind her while people pelt him with rotten vegetables, so what? That person might be a troll, an asshole, or both, but so what? What injury has anybody actually suffered from reading something like that? Some serious hyperventilating.
Amir Khalid
@jl:
@Reggie Mantle:
The frontpagers and commenters here started out with quite a few Bernie supporters among them. But over the months Bernie has disappointed as a candidate in a number of ways, especially in comparison to Hillary — a poorer grasp of policy issues, less understanding of how to move from broad goals to concrete action points, a comparative lack of administrative, political and diplomatic skills. He has not managed to rein the more embarrassing behaviour of a minority of ardent supporters, which has been discrediting his campaign. He has too often been petulant in defeat, setting a bad example to his supporters.
These things have, rightly I think, put off his former supporters here. I reckon a good part of the hostility you sense comes from their frustration with him. He could and should have been a much better candidate.
SFAW
@Iowa Old Lady:
Christ, I hope so. Otherwise my response was wasted.
SFAW
@different-church-lady:
And, after his reasonable comments on an earlier thread, I had such high hopes that he had successfully passed through his “YOU ALL FUCKING SUCK!” phase. Obviously, I was rong.
Reggie Mantle
@SFAW:
Yes, rong you were. When the Bernie bashing commences again, I’m going to push back. This should not be a difficult concept to grasp.
Amir Khalid
@Reggie Mantle:
You should have noticed by now that around here, loudly denouncing people who disagree with you about Bernie, or about anything, is by itself not effective pushback.
SFAW
@Amir Khalid:
I might suggest replacing “managed” with “tried”; although he has not been Trump-like (“heh heh boys will be boys amirite?”) in that regard, it did seem as though he was loath to condemn the more-outrageous behaviors. Maybe I’m forgetting some key instance of him taking his bots to the woodshed.
El Caganer
@Reggie Mantle: Why? If I tell you that I think Bernie Sanders has sexual congress with small furry animals, that may well mean that I’m a primo asshole, but what difference does that make to you? Does the sun stop shining or the world stop turning or your feet stop walking?
SFAW
@Reggie Mantle:
If you consider the comments on this string “Bernie bashing,” then your already-thin-skin has become nigh on transparent. Well, actually, it was already there. But now, based on the alleged bashing which prompted your familiar response, it appears that any mention of Bernie that isn’t the functional equivalent of “Oooh, we love Bernie SOOOOO Much” is bashing, in your “mind.”
As I’ve said before: you come here looking to pick a fight. Sorry your comments this AM were a false flag (or whatever).
SFAW
@El Caganer:
Bernie bashing MUST BE AVENGED! is why.
Bailey
@trollhattan:
Not to beat a dead horse on this issue, but where have you been that you think this is news or an uncommon sentiment about HRC? Frankly, while I can obviously see how she is far preferable to Trump, she is one of my least favorite Democrats. The echo chamber that is the BJ comment section would have you think HRC was incredibly popular. She is not. And many of us will be taking barf bags into the voting booth. Don’t fool yourself into thinking it’s all right-wing spin that shows HRC as being unliked—she does much of that all on her own.
dogwood
@El Caganer:
You know this is a pretty small community. And I’ve come here to vent about Bernie because I can’t do it in the real world. I can’t tell my dear Bernie loving friends what I really think of the guy. So sometimes this seems like the safest place to express those feeling. There are people that come to insult Clinton too, and I say better here than the local pub.
Gelfling545
@dww44: If they’re perfectly ok with someone whom nobody voted for (competent people, etc. ) make the decisions, I wonder why they bother to vote at all.
Aimai
@Keith G: it amazes me that bernie, who has allowed his supporters to call hillary clinton everything from murderess to corporate whore, requires such delicate handling–his supporters are enraged ghat any democrats have the temerity to treat bernie like an ordinary politician. Neither he nor they could handle a tenth of the brutal treatment HRC has received, and will receive as president. If he cant stand tbe heat he can get out of the fucking kitchen. Politics aint beanbag.
Rex Everything
@burnspbesq: Actually, I can’t think of a less apt comparison. Taibbi’s political predictions are almost always borne out completely by subsequent events.
dogwood
@Bailey:
Thanks for taking the bag to the polls. Make sure you don’t leave it in the booth so someone else has to clean up after you. Or you could seal it up and send it to Hillary with an “I Voted” sticker attached. That might be fun.
PST
@Baud:
Here in Chicago they can vote.
Trollhattan
@Bailey:
Please consider me entertained.
dogwood
@Aimai:
Bernie is on a weird ride right now. He spent a career in Washington being an ass to his colleagues and making few if any friends. Now he can stand before thousands of strangers and they love him. Sanders and Trump are the first presidential candidates who have simply refused to talk about or do things that used to be standard for all candidates, and their voters don’t give a damn. I think we dodged a bullet, but I hope we’ve learned a lesson about letting anyone run as a democrat and then allowing them to do as they please. It’s not working out so well for the Republicans either.
Bailey
@dogwood:
Sure. Whatever makes you happy.
Bailey
@Trollhattan:
Okay, but are you still confused as to how many women, of all ages, aren’t as enamored with Clinton as BJ seems to be?
Reggie Mantle
@Bailey:
But see, they don’t WANT your vote if you can’t do it “whole heartedly.” You must not only vote for the Secretary, but looooooove her. Otherwise you should just vote for Jill Stein, because Hillary only needs vote from the pure in heart. I read it right here on Balloon Juice.
Keith G
@Aimai: I personally am not any more concerned with Bernie’s feelings than I am Hillary’s.
What I was noting was my disappointment that “My Side” (the folks whom I want to hold to a higher standard) had voices engaged in amazingly pompous and demeaning jabs at Sanders. At times it just felt like meanness for the sake of meanness.
Yeah, politics ain’t bean bag, but it’s rhetoric does not have to be infantile.
There is this immediacy effect with the internet that makes all levels of conflict pop out and get ramped up to some nth degree. Bernie was never in position to be a mortal threat to Hillary. The structural mechanics of winning the nomination were never there for him.
Some of his less-than-rational supporters said some stupid stuff? Yeah…they were misguided and frustrated by being in a battle that they were not equipped to successfully fight. So who the bloody hell cares?
The frustration of sensing one’s part in an inevitable defeat can lead to silly blather. What’s our excuse?
Does Bernie have to apologize for such rhetoric? I really don’t care. It was not directed by him. I remember that Bill Clinton, a campaign principal if ever there was one, personally went after Barak Obama, hammer and tong – so much so that other Democrats told Bill to back off. I am sure he apologized eventually, but I do not recall any publicly displayed hair shirts being worn.
Uncle Cosmo
@Failey: Better idea for you: Take a plastic bag into the voting booth with you, & after you vote straight Democratic, pull the thing over your head & tie it tight.around your neck.
Better yet, do it now, this minute. We’ll win this one without your oh-so-precious vote
(This post has been brought to you by the letters F, O, A, and D.)
J R in WV
@Ben:
Hey!
Saying ” Fox News only has her up three” is exactly like saying “Trump has announced that he leads Crooked Hilary by 7+ points nationwide!”
So don’t bother.
Bailey
@Uncle Cosmo:
Stay classy.
SFAW
@Reggie Mantle:
See, now you’re making shit up again. But I guess it’s better than your usual. Marginally.
J R in WV
@Cleos:
I saw Richard Nixon re-elected… no one can top that in this country. Then he was impeached for REAL crimes, and resigned… those were the days of real hard-ball politics.
different-church-lady
@El Caganer:
I NEVER SUGGESTED THAT!!!
SFAW
@J R in WV:
I think W getting “re-elected” in 2004 tops it. I hated Nixon plenty — still would, were he alive — and he was an evil, paranoid asshole, but he wasn’t as destructive to the country overall (during his first term) as W was. Of course, the general political climate was different in those days. But Cheney is at least as evil as Nixon was, and having a moron fronting for him didn’t hurt.
And that Kerry was able to beat W (or would have, had not Ken Blackwell committed massive vote suppression in Dem strongholds), the incumbent, is a pretty strong indicator that the country thought W should go. By contrast, Nixon kicked McGovern’s ass, EV-wise and PV-wise. McGovern was a good guy, decorated WW2 pilot, very liberal, and would probably have made it competitive if he were running against a Bush-like incumbent. [Just my opinion, I might be completely full of shit vis-a-vis that last comment.]
SFAW
Comment eated? In moderation?