Sanders drawing votes from white Dems who: dislike Obama, are resentful against blacks & want less liberal policies pic.twitter.com/a2cVI3xD7Q
— Patrick J. Egan (@Patrick_J_Egan) May 9, 2016
Remember this during Tuesday's #WVPrimary — conservative Dems are voting Bernie to troll Hillary https://t.co/M5aXATQTU3
— Wyeth Ruthven (@wyethwire) May 9, 2016
From NYT number cruncher Nate Cohn, statistics on Kim Davis’ voting kin:
… These conservative Democrats are a legacy of the old Democratic strength among white voters in the South, where many white conservatives nonetheless remain registered as Democrats. In several states, these voters can be something of a consolation prize to Mr. Sanders, who has often complained that closed primaries prevent many of his younger and independent supporters from voting.
It bodes well for Mr. Sanders’s chances in coal country this month, starting in West Virginia on Tuesday. West Virginia, like Oklahoma, has far more registered Democrats than Obama voters.
Even today, 49 percent of voters are registered Democrats in West Virginia, but Mr. Obama won just 35.5 percent of the vote against Mitt Romney in 2012. Mr. Obama won just 59 percent in the 2012 primary in a one-on-one contest against Keith Judd, who was in prison at the time and who will be on the West Virginia ballot again on Tuesday…
In the open primaries, as in Texas or Alabama, these conservatives tend to vote in the Republican primary — just as they vote for Republicans in presidential elections. But in closed or semi-closed contests like Florida, Louisiana and Oklahoma, such voters must cast ballots in a Democratic primary if they want to vote in a primary at all. The result: Mrs. Clinton’s support surges once you cross the state line from Oklahoma to Texas, but the turnout plummets.
The same effect can be seen across the South. Mr. Sanders fared far better in the Florida Panhandle, where a majority of voters are often registered Democrats but Republicans prevail, than he did on the other side of the state line in Alabama or Georgia, with their open primaries…
It’s unclear whether these voters sincerely support Mr. Sanders. Demographically similar voters on the other side of the state border aren’t showing up for him, so they’re not exactly “feeling the Bern.”
Exit polls in Oklahoma, which allowed independents to vote in the Democratic primary for the first time, showed Mr. Sanders winning among people who wanted more conservative policies than Mr. Obama, or who trusted neither Mr. Sanders nor Mrs. Clinton in a crisis. These are probably not voters who are getting fired up for the Democratic revolution.
It’s possible that some of the Democratic voters showed up to vote for a Republican, but found themselves turned away.
Perhaps they showed up to vote in a local or statewide primary. Maybe some decided on mischief and were meddling with the Democrats.
Or, they might have simply wanted to register displeasure with a Democratic Party that has largely left them behind…
As everybody keeps reminding each other, voting is a habit; people show up to vote because they have local candidates or initiatives to support or block, and those that are interested enough to do so once tend to keep right on doing so. But too many of those ‘committed’ voters, while they take their school board seats and tax override proposals seriously, treat Presidential primaries (and elections) like reality shows — they vote to show that they ‘feel disrepected’, or in a more optimistic mood to jump on the newest bandwagon. Doesn’t mean we can dismiss their votes, but we do need to distinguish between people who can be persuaded by facts and those who only pick a candidate because American Idol has gone off the air and the Eurovision Song Contest isn’t among their cable choices.
starscream
Wait…do their votes count or not…
different-church-lady
In other words: we’re in for yet another round of “BERNIE-MENTUM!” aren’t we?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@different-church-lady: The Rachel Maddow is reporting that Clinton is reversing herself on not running ads in the primaries. I suspect Bernie! might be showing some strength in CA and she’s tired of this bullshit.
Kropadope
AKA registered Democrats who have been voting for Republican presidents since Reagan but can’t vote in the Republican primary because of dumbass closed primaries so they make trouble in an otherwise non-competitive Democratic primary.
@starscream: Of course they do.
Mike J
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: She did spend 20k in Guam.
Mike J
@starscream:
They’re southern like New York and conservative like Massachusetts, so under Bernie rules they shouldn’t count. Since they’re white it’s ok though.
Kropadope
@Mike J: @starscream: Man, you guys love beating on that dishonest conventional wisdom trope. All to support a candidate who actually explicitly argued on behalf of the primacy of white voters. Or are black voters working harder now?
liberal
More corporate whores
LAO
I know this is a Bernie/Hillary thread (or will soon be) but here’s a link to Ammon Bundy’s motion to dismiss, which was filed today. Although not pro se, it is extremely delusional.
WarMunchkin
Man, the convention is going to be a shitshow. On the other hand, the GOP convention will be worse.
different-church-lady
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I suspect she always intended to run hard in CA — it’s the big prize.
I also suspect circumstances are such that ads during the primary do double-duty as general election ads, practically speaking.
lamh36
Before I got back to talkin’ politics, just wanted to say, I just came from seeing Captain America: Civil War.
And wowwy wow…it def lives up to the hype. I still place CA:WS as my number one, but CW just prob knocked off the first Avengers movie as my #2 fav MCU films.
I won’t really be doing a review, since I know alot of folks still haven’t seen it, but I’ll say that the standouts everyone else have been talking bout are the same for me!
I you are a fan of the series, see it, if not the action sequences and some of the plot twist are still enough to recommend it. Those Russo brothers really know how to direct multi-player action sequences, so this bodes well for the final Avengers films, which will involve a lot of actors.
Final thoughts! Black Widow deserves her own movie, she was once again a standout in the big cast. Also too Chadwick Boseman!!!!! Also too…Spiderman!!!!
different-church-lady
@starscream: Well, if they vote for Bernie then their votes count. But if they don’t, then there’s an entire host of reasons why they “distort” the process.
Monala
I lived in a primary state in 2008, and missed the chance to caucus this year in Washington state due to work. Hubby and I just received primary ballots in the mail. I assumed they were for state and local offices, but no, they were for president. How does this work, having a primary vote after already having a caucus?
Major Major Major Major
@Kropadope: we lambasted Hillary for it in 2008 and we’re lambasting Bernie for it now. It’s okay, they’re politicians, don’t take it so personally.
Frankensteinbeck
@LAO:
I don’t have time to read it all now, but I read the intro. Breathtaking, and I am a little dumber for having read it. I award you no points, Ammon Bundy, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Belafon
I’m curious how many of the voters voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012.
Omnes Omnibus
@LAO: Copied from below: Adverse possession? The fuck?
Davis X. Machina
Some of them are just idiots
In reference to which, Ed at Gin and Tacos has an lengthy reflection upon a work of Philip Converse that I found interesting.
Prescott Cactus
@Mike J:
That’s probably 4 first class tickets that were non refundable
Kropadope
@Major Major Major Major: But Bernie didn’t actually argue that. At all. This is, again, people repeating dishonest conventional wisdom tropes because in this instance it cuts in favor of their preferred candidate. This is a favorite weapon of the Republicans, however, and we shouldn’t be legitimizing that approach.
I know you don’t like it when the media does the false equivalency “both sides do it” nonsense. If we want the media to be honest, we shouldn’t do it by living down to their expectations.
ETA: You also shouldn’t be seeking to match the Bernie bros in assholery.
LAO
@Omnes Omnibus: Remarkable in its stupidity. JJ mcNab on twitter is deconstructing the ridiculousness of the “non-violent”, civil nature of the “protest.” I can’t believe 2 lawyers signed off on this dreck.
gogol's wife
Just got back from dinner with a bunch of people who think Trump is going to win. Quite a downer.
LAO
@Frankensteinbeck:
I’ve lost at least 50 IQ points since I started following the Bundy prosecutions. (and I don’t have much more to spare).
amk
@Kropadope:
she got shit canned for it in 2008. now it’s your idol’s turn.
Soylent Green
@Frankensteinbeck: Soon after taking over the refuge, Bundy’s gang “contacted the utility company to take over responsibility for utilities and services.”
Yeah, but they didn’t leave first and last month’s rent or a cleaning deposit.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@gogol’s wife: if you wanna cheer up you can watch the Maddow segment about the poll that shows Trump to be less popular than headlice and hemmarhoids
Chyron HR
@Kropadope:
Oh, why don’t you just quit the Democratic party forever and vow to vote for Trump if Clinton gets the nomination?
You know, again.
AkaDad
Those voters are easy to spot. Just look for their spite boners.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@efgoldman: i remember the bleat of a PUMA in late 2008: “Are we really that small a sliver of the party?”
dr. bloor
So what upsets them more: when they realize Bernie is more liberal than the NiClang, or when they find out he’s an ew-Jay?
Kropadope
@amk: He’s not my idol. In fact I donated to Clinton, but not to him. I see him as pretty much a passable candidate. That doesn’t mean I need to tolerate people saying dishonest shit about him and his supporters or legitimizing techniques and lines of argumentation that will certainly be used against Hillary in the Fall. This vitriolic BS isn’t exactly helping bridge divides between the candidates either.
Major Major Major Major
@Kropadope: except Bernie DID predicate his campaign on “working class white people.” I believe that’s a direct quote from a National Journal article I saw. He’s talked about people who don’t vote for him as being unsophisticated. He’s talked about how his message would have resonated with the poors if they only understood. (This is Marxism 101, well Trotsky if you want to be specific.) He’s not shy about this.
And then he said the same thing about southern democrats. I don’t know where he’s from, but around my parts when you talk about primary voters in the south you mean black democrats. i dont think there was any ill intent, he’s not dog whistling past the graveyard… but then again, I don’t think Hillary meant black people were dumb or lazy either. She still said something dumb.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@LAO: I kind of mocked it (belatedly) below.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
like your “let it all burn” but not (alas) GBCW tantrum of a few weeks ago?
divF
@Major Major Major Major: Happy birthday !
Amir Khalid
@Kropadope:
As I know from personal experience, that would be difficult indeed.
Just Some Fuckhead, Clinton Supporter
I haven’t read the comments in a few weeks and I don’t know where the zeitgeist is on this, but is it really useful to label Sanders voters as racists when he has close to no chance of winning the nomination and we’re going to need every vote we can get in the general?
schrodinger's cat
@Major Major Major Major: Happy Birthday!
shomi
Bernie who? That guy still running? For what? Certainly not for Democrats. Doesn’t seem to have their best interests in mind.
Kropadope
@Chyron HR: I never said I was voting for Trump, which I was made to clarify over and over as I was saying I would boycott the Ds. I know you reflexive haters have difficulty with facts, but that should be an easy one. Stated refulsal to vote for Democrats != supporting Republicans.
I was playing a character that you and others seemed intent on seeing me as regardless of my actual prior statements, actions, or beliefs. How would you feel if a substantial subset of people on your favorite website were suddenly going out of their way on a daily basis, thread after thread, saying “I hate people like you. I hate people like you. Off topic and apropos of nothing, but I hate people like you.” It’s so fucking obnoxious and makes reading the other good content a chore having to sift through all that idiocy.
LAO
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I responded in kind, below. (“With this motion, the hyperbole stops now, — what a joke.)
NotMax
Still have trouble digesting that WV elected a Rockefeller to high offices, multiple times.
Damien
@Just Some Fuckhead, Clinton Supporter: I think it’s important to reveal the fractures in the Dem party where affiliation and commitment diverge and less about calling Bernie supporters racist. I want to see where Democrats are Democrats and where they’re rusty husks of Confederate spoilers, and if those people are voting for Bernie then that’s of secondary importance.
Kropadope
@Amir Khalid: They’re trying and you, while not being explicitly an asshole, have advocated on behalf of their assholery at every turn.
Just Some Fuckhead, Clinton Supporter
@Damien: So no, then?
schrodinger's cat
On the topic of yesterday’s story where the unnamed woman thought math was Arabic. How is it even possible?
1.Mathematical symbols, Greek characters, do not like anything like Arabic.
2.Arabic is written from right to left and math is most certainly not.
Much Ignorance. So scaredy. Wow.
divF
@efgoldman: *Big Grin* . But you know that you love it, even though it’s exhausting.
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: Nyquil.*
*I am neither an MD nor a parent. Some have called my judgment suspect.
schrodinger's cat
I am totally bored with Bernie’s vanity campaign and Trump’s insult comic routine, can’t wait for the election season to be over.
Kropadope
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Was a response to almost a year of putting up with the spittle-flecked rage of Clinton supporters because someone on twitter said something mean so they have to take it out on every Bernie supporter they encounter.
Damien
@Kropadope:
Are you for real unable to see how, in a binary system, your boycott has the same putative effect as if you were to be supporting Trump? This isn’t a made up character saying these things, it’s you, and no, there is nothing noble about sitting out the process; do the hard work to change the party if you’re so disaffected.
schrodinger's cat
@efgoldman: I have heard from competent parental authorities that a bath before bed time works wonders to soothe a toddler.
Kropadope
@Major Major Major Major:
Links?
Damien
@Just Some Fuckhead, Clinton Supporter: I would say no, it’s not helpful to label all of Bernie’s supporters as racist. But I think pointing out where race plays an issue and has given him an assist to the basket is important as well.
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: No, I was actually good at that. Outside of the hearing room, however… Hell, I hang out here; that has to say something.
divF
@Omnes Omnibus: Used to use paregoric, back when it was sold OTC.
Major Major Major Major
@Kropadope: on the iPhone here, so no. The NJ is pay walled tho. It’s not hard to find instances of the rest. There’s always the classic http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/24/bernie-sanders-poor-people-dont-vote-primary-losses
Marc
@Just Some Fuckhead, Clinton Supporter: The only thing that I can figure is that for a lot of the posters here politics is like supporting a sports team. It’s not enough for their candidate to win; they have to continue to rub the losing candidates nose in it over and over again. Baiting Sanders supporters, like AL does pretty much every fucking day, only makes sense if the goal is to play some sort of dominance game. That’s the only reason I can think of why they’re continuing to do this pointless crap after it’s obvious that Clinton has won, and why they’re pushing the “you have no choice but to vote for my candidate, loser” theme instead of the more accurate “Actually, Sanders brought up some good points and he and Clinton agree on lots of things”. Which, in addition to being true, is much more respectful and likely to succeed than the same old crap that goes on every day.
If I sound pissed off, it’s because, after talking to my son, he’s so goddamn antagonized by the shitty behavior of Clinton supporters towards him personally that’s he shifted from “yup, Clinton in the general” to “anything that pisses those assholes off is good by me”. He knows it’s not rational, but this bullshit has real consequences for real people, and I’m just about at the end of my personal rope on it.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@LAO: With this motion, the hyperbole stops now. Except the added emphasis was an underscore.
amk
@Kropadope:
tweaked it a bit for ya.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@schrodinger’s cat: He probably did use some integrals. A previous paper (42 page .pdf):
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who thinks it had more to do with his appearance than his writing.)
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Jesus wept.
.
LAO
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I giggle every time I read that line. Because their entire motion is hyperbole. ? ? ?
Just Some Fuckhead, Clinton Supporter
@Marc: You’d think AL would have learned from the Obama folks doing the same thing to the Clinton folks in 2008 and then Obama expressing regret about it.
LAO
@Omnes Omnibus: it’s not Jesus weeping, it’s the poor clerk assigned to this case. How do you address motion papers that are premised on an alternative reality?
Jeffro
@lamh36: We saw it yesterday and agree on all points – what a heckuva movie!
So about that first post-credits trailer: you know when they’re gonna bring you-know-who out of deep freeze again, right? Either at the end of AVENGERS: INFINITY WAR part 1 or the start of AVENGERS: INFINITY WAR part 2, ’cause his, um, closest teammate will be out of commission and he’ll be needed (desperately) to fight the big T!
Amir Khalid
@Kropadope:
When I think of the Berniebro who called me a slaver solely because of my scepticism toward Bernie’s candidacy (ETA: a scepticism that has only grown over the past few months), why yes, I do tend to be unsympathetic toward Berniebros as people.
Kropadope
@Damien:
Except it was make-believe boycott designed specifically to get laughs off the predictable reactions of thin-skinned assholes. Aside from that, you people seem awfully entitled regarding other people’s votes. There’s no immutable law of the universe saying that there have to be only two parties in U.S. politics, the Democrats and the Republicans. In fact, it hasn’t always been that way.
If I want another party to grow, the only way I can accomplish that is by voting for that party’s candidates. Given the non-competitive nature of my state, there is literally zero harm by not voting for the Democrat for President. In fact, strong performance at the top of the ballot gives third parties guaranteed slots on ballots for the subsequent election cycle in MA. Despite that, I still plan on voting for Hillary unless the UIP or the Justice Party or the Greens put up a truly exceptional candidate. So, will you assholes accept “yes” as an answer rather than making me choose between leaving the site or wallowing waist deep in your loathing? I get enough of that from myself.
Anne Laurie
@dr. bloor:
They’re voting for Trump in November anyways; but since they can’t vote for him tomorrow, they’ll vote against Hillary. (As Cohn points out, a measurable chunk of them voted for a non-politician serving time in jail over President Obama in 2012, before voting for Romney in November.
Kropadope
@Amir Khalid: I meant you are actively encouraging Clinton supporters who decide to be assholes. And if you’re mad that someone called you a slaver, take it out on that person or block communications with that person. Don’t take it out on everyone else.
Miss Bianca
@LAO: Oh, this is going to be fun. Just what a bit of light reading while I do my hair. ; )
@lamh36: Ooh, just caught “Winter Soldier” on DVD and enjoyed it, so am probably down for another Cap movie. Blowing shit up to demonstrate that blowing shit up is wrong! Yeah! Uh…yeah! : )
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@LAO: Ideally, with a sense of humor that incorporates actual legal precedents. Or is it the other way around? Alcohol at the end of the day is probably recommended. And some tears may be shed.
@Miss Bianca: You crack me up! You’ll need wine, probably.
Omnes Omnibus
@LAO: I spent two years handling largely “pro se” 2254 and 2255 petitions. Just sayin’.
Brachiator
So is the idea here that votes for Sanders shouldn’t count because the voters are bad people? Or that they are being forced to vote for Sanders because they register as Democrats but really love Trump?
What a load of horse crap. Count the votes and move on. If Sanders gets a landslide vote and then tries to use it to his advantage, whatever. That will be its own debate.
And obviously voting for Sanders is not going to help anyone in the state realize their racist dreams. And in the general election they will have an opportunity to vote for or against their own interests. The only thing the Democrats can do is to make their best case.
Amaranthine RBG
Sneering condescension may not be be the best way to engage them.
Dog Dawg Damn
Just watched the clip of HRC going around “I’m gonna let him run his campaign HOWEVER he choses.” Her facial expressions and vocal inflection is just so awful. I find it off-putting. Basically betting that Obama is right and she’s likeable “enough”, but if she were up against Ruboi(toy), I’d be a tad nervous.
Kropadope
@amk: When I encounter Bernie supporters pulling that type of shit I call them on it too. Still doesn’t make it right when Clinton supprters do it.
LAO
@Omnes Omnibus: that’s why I asked you! I’m usually the one drafting the bs papers. Lol.
schrodinger's cat
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: That makes more sense. Integral sign doesn’t look like Arabic to me, I know its a stand-in for S for summation, also integrals are also written left to right.
Just Some Fuckhead, Clinton Supporter
@Brachiator: One of the rare times we agree. That has to mean something.
Damien
@Marc: I’m ready to stop rubbing Sanders’ supporters’ noses in it when he and they stop attacking the nominee and get on to the more important business of defeating Trump and building a left-wing machine from the county on up.
That’s what is so fucking infuriating, personally, is that Sanders’ revolution is so hollow that he’d rather keep playing a game he’s already badly lost than to go out and reform the sport itself.
I’m ready over here, let’s go get back the statehouses, the governorships and the House, and let’s get started now. Where is the Bernie revolutionary front action? Apparently pissing and moaning that people are mean.
LAO
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): not sure alcohol is enough. I’m thinking narcotics. Heroin, maybe. Or crack? Meth?
nutella
@LAO:
My favorite parts:
and
Very welcoming, as we could see in the videos.
Quotes from OregonLive.
Omnes Omnibus
@LAO: As a serious answer, I would usually go with something like “Petitioner’s argument is based on a fundamental misreading of [relevant law]….” and go from there. I would also trust the actual judge to edit out most of the snark. It was fun when a judge let it stay in.
@LAO: Drinking and sport sex.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
yup
MomSense
@LAO:
Yes! This should be good.
Amir Khalid
@Kropadope:
I am profoundly sceptical of Bernie, who is a hopelessly inadequate candidate for president, and i would be so regardless of which Bernie supporter I was dealing with. I try not to get personal in my disagreements with other commenters here, but I have noticed that Bernistas as a group are not so scrupulous.
LAO
@nutella: At a one point, his lawyer refers to Ammon as “a significant thinker”. I appreciate the lack of significant “self-reflection” in these papers. Because, according to his lawyer, Ammon is not an anti-government, militia type, but rather a federalist in the mold of Scalia and Roberts.
Kropadope
@Major Major Major Major: You said
However, the provided article quotes Bernie as saying “because poor people don’t vote.” Not “they don’t vote for him” or “they don’t understand” or “they’re unsophisticated” or anything remotely like that. Poor people have a hard time getting to the polls. This is a well-known fact. They have difficulty with transportation, they often have more difficulty taking time off at work, they often, have longer waits at polling stations, et c. It’s certainly debatable whether poor people would be voting for him if they managed to turn up at the polls in higher numbers, but that’s another issue entirely. Point is, this is just yet another lame false characterization of Bernie’s position.
NotMax
@nutella
We come in peace.
;)
LAO
@Omnes Omnibus: got it, drugs not necessary for you. Lol.
Marc
@Damien: So, normal people would make that easier by acting as if they had some respect for the voters that they’re trying to persuade, rather than by treating them as enemies to be ridiculed and defeated. The article referenced in this post is basically pre-election excuse making, with a thin insinuation that Sanders voters are a bunch of bigots and Republicans in disguise. It’s incredibly insulting and transparent.
My son is 26, he’s done the stuff that people here keep harping on and on about what the young ‘uns should do. Vote in every damn election since he was 18. Drove hundreds of miles from where he was working to vote in the primary. And when he gets lectures about why he has no choice but to vote for someone he finds it absolutely arrogant and infuriating. That’s an argument that you use when you’ve run out of actually good arguments, which is not even close to the case now.
jl
Seems to me that HRC and Sanders are showing signs of wrapping this up in a constructive way. So, I hope primaries get their ass done with without unexpected trouble soon and people can get down to working on a winning campaign for the general election. I don’t think either HRC or Sanders would be strong enough candidate for my comfort. We need to forge a Bernally Clinters campaign and I hope that can happen.
And we need Trump to be an historically inept and horrible candidate to help out. From what I have seen and heard recently, he shows some promise there.
Ruckus
@LAO:
I read a little bit of that. I will now leave you all for about an hour. I need to bash my head against the wall continuously to see if I can make the hemorrhage either far better or far worse. I mean I must be having a hemorrhage or something because I feel about 80% stupider from having seen that. And that’s from a somewhat low starting point to begin with.
Kropadope
@efgoldman:
Which doesn’t at all change the fact that he consistently advocates on behalf of balloon-juice Clinton supporters who are being dishonest and/or assholes.
Also the latter half of this…
…painfully lacking in both self- and in-group-awareness.
Brachiator
@schrodinger’s cat:
When people give in to fear, they’re consumed by stupidity. I’ve read stories and seen with my own eyes a case where a person reacted with fear and suspicion to a person who was a Sikh. And Sikhs are not uncommon in Southern California and elsewhere. But fearful stupid people see what they want to see. And you have people like Trump happy to whip them into a frenzy.
Amir Khalid
@Kropadope:
For example?
LAO
@Ruckus: lol. I read the whole thing, because, as I have acknowledged, I have issues.
Miss Bianca
@Omnes Omnibus: Nyquil for him or for sprog?
Cacti
Just because Bernie thinks the blackest states in the country “distort reality”, and thinks they shouldn’t get to vote early in the process doesn’t mean he should be criticized for being racially tone deaf.
As opposed to say, diverse, reality reflective states like Vermont, Maine, and New Hampshire.
Brachiator
@Just Some Fuckhead, Clinton Supporter:
Must have something to do with the transit of Mercury today. ;)
FlipYrWhig
@Marc: Maybe the Sanders campaign shouldn’t have run for a year on the premise that they were superior specimens of liberal humanity and that the other candidate’s supporters were repugnant. Fuck him twice sideways. Is this my true view, or is it my “character” I play to get a rise out of dickholes? I guess you’ll never know.
Omnes Omnibus
@Miss Bianca: Whatever works. I’m easy.
Percysowner
From tonight’s Rachel Maddow show Rachel Maddow: Trump is so unpopular voters like him less than lice — by nearly 30 points
He’s also less popular than
Damien
@Kropadope: I apparently wasn’t here for your performance art, and I apologize for assuming it was sincere. While that sounds sarcastic, it really isn’t, I just don’t know how else to describe this situation.
That being said, I agree with you about growing a third party by voting, but I think you’re wrong about several immutable laws that preclude creating one at the level of the Democrats and Republicans, especially from the top down:
1. Without a proper caucus behind them, the third party president would instantly be forced to dea exclusively with the assholes they improbably beat, how quickly do you think until that mechanic breaks down?
2. There isn’t an unlimited supply of money, so every dollar flowing to a third party is one drained away from the party most closely aligned with said third party. If the Green Party grew into a national powerhouse, it would be splitting the left-wing resources with the Dems. There sure as hell isn’t six billion dollars floating around to fund three candidacies.
3. Same for votes. Perot was probably the most successful modern independent candidate, and he split the Republicans: hello President Clinton! Nader to a lesser, local degree.
I would love to stop all of this Sanders nonsense, for him to admit he’s lost, and to come together to elect the left-wing infrastructure he would need to get his agenda through, since Clinton will also need it to achieve he things they agree on. But as long as Bernie’s supporters are giving life to bullshit like “the South distorts reality,” “she’s corrupt” and this new smear about money laundering, well, fuck them and the pony they rode in on.
Omnes Omnibus
@Percysowner: Nickelback? Holy fuck!
FlipYrWhig
@Kropadope:
I have never seen you call a Bernie supporter on anything. Just mutual handwringing about the mean Clintonites and their general dirty-dealing awfulness.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
I haven’t found any Clinton or Sanders stuff in the Panama Papers, but Trump (naturally) has two entities come up instantly.
https://offshoreleaks.icij.org/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=trump&c=USA&e=&commit=Search
No Bush or Romney stuff either, but presumably all these people (except Trump, apparently) are smart enough to not use their real names if they want to hide money.
The HRC bashers at the NY Times (and elsewhere) who look there are going to be so disappointed.
Cheers,
Scott.
schrodinger's cat
@Brachiator: My Sikh friend’s teen son said that sporting the traditional turban and a beard in this environment is like painting a bull’s eye on your back.
jl
@Brachiator: I’ve had that problem with some relatives from back East visiting California. They start noticing quite a few Sikhs walking around and ask if there are many Arabs in the Central Valley. I say ‘yes, but those are Sikh’s, not Arabs.’ I hear general worry about all these strange people coming into the country and I tell them the Central Valley has had a big Sikh community for over 100 years. They say California is nice to visit but I can have it. And I say ‘well, thanks, I like it fine, no problem.’
It’s not just bigots, it is people who have lived in very homogeneous communities and are alarmed about things and people they don’t understand. So, I don’t mind unless I get unreasoning resistance or patronized when I try to explain. Then my ‘bigot-dar’ alarm goes off. Usually it stays polite and constructive. But I had to tell a hubby and wifey from the squeezed up little part of MD (W By God Virginia country alert) that I damn well was respectful of them when they explained their homeland to me, and I expected it to be returned when I explained California to them.
Ruckus
@schrodinger’s cat:
One thing that happened over the weekend. In the car dealership they had signs posted about being able to get a copy of any warranty offered with a purchase. In 7 languages. Now I couldn’t read them but I could recognize what all the languages were. And the person whose office I was in, who has to provide those warranties in any of those languages couldn’t do that.
Amaranthine RBG
@LAO: My favorite line so far from Bundy’s filing:
Oh, and splitting the argument in 1/2 and filing 1/2 of it as the “Motion” to get around the page limits – wow, I bet the Court has never seen that brilliant strategy before.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: I had the pleasure of defending pro se 1983 actions. I even tried a couple. Both plaintiffs were quite well spoken, but otherwise polar opposites.
The unassuming older man who presented a claim that wasn’t summaried out was unfailingly polite to me, the judge, the jury, and all the witnesses.
The sociopathic* one got pissed about an objection I made, turned, and took a step toward counsel table until my 6’6″ stretched tall next to me. I was on my feet having just made the (sustained) objection. My second chair rolled her chair away from counsel table into the wall.
Sissy.Sensible woman. My client said if the plaintiff had gotten close to the table, “he wouldn’t stop until his head hit the well divider.” The jury was impressed, and not in a good way.@LAO: Blow and a cns depressant, perhaps including gin. That’s what I’d recommend. But, see above, which I survived.
*Described by a parole authority staff member, who’d previously worked at that prison, as probably one of the 2 most dangerous men in state custody. In part because of his intelligence.
Miss Bianca
@efgoldman: Ask and ye shall receive.
@Amaranthine RBG: OMG – really? I’m gonna have to tuck into this little puppy STAT.
Marc
@FlipYrWhig: You’ve made it crystal clear in many posts that you’re motivated by personal hatred of Sanders supporters who’ve rubbed you the wrong way. I think that taking it out on other people who’ve done nothing to you is not useful. I’m giving you a hint about how the sort of tactics that you’re using play out on real people. If that makes you feel good about yourself, carry on. If it induced some second thoughts, good. I think that you’re better than the act that you put on in these comment threads, or at least that’s what I remember from seeing the nym in action for a long time here.
In any case, crashing here.
different-church-lady
@Kropadope:
You were saying?
Omnes Omnibus
@Damien:
More or less where I am right now. I have little doubt that by everything will be resolved after CA. Aside from PUMA equivalents, Bernie voters will support the HRC in the general election. But as long as the Bernie supporters feel free to toss around terms like corrupt and and warmonger, I don’t really see why I should start reaching out yet.
Damien
@Marc: I disagree with characterizing EVERY Sanders voter as a racist, because that’s transparently stupid, but I think the information about WV suggests that racists will be voting for him in higher numbers than Clinton. Should we not point that out? I find the information fascinating, but YMMV.
I respect your son’s commitment; I was working on taking back the Colorado state senate before I could legally vote, and worked on both Obama campaigns, so i understand where he’s coming from. On the other hand, I think it’s fair to say to someone who is sincere in their principles that there sometimes really is no choice. In this case, it’s either Clinton or Trump, Bernie is out. Is it arrogant for me to say this?
Miss Bianca
@Omnes Omnibus: There’s a joke in there somewhere, but even Ms. No-Laugh-Too-Cheap ain’t a-gonna touch it.
Kropadope
@Damien:
The President isn’t the whole government. Sorry if I didn’t express it clearly enough, but the idea here is that adequate support for a third party at the top of the ticket will give that party guaranteed positions on the ballot which would better allow it to complete down-ballot in the following election. I wouldn’t bet on a third party candidate getting elected president at this time. Though, I don’t agree that there wouldn’t be opportunities for that president to work with Congress.
Congress will still have work to do and members will still want to pass those priorities into law, which would necessarily include working with the president unless (s)he was a completely outlandish person. I have a hard time seeing the Ds refusing to do their job. The Rs always refuse to do their job. Incidentally, I see this idea as far stranger still when people say the Ds wouldn’t work with Bernie if he were elected under their party banner. That’s just immensely destructive in so many ways.
All left voters are belong to us.
There are benefits to acquiring more delegates even if the nomination is out of reach. For example, more input into the party platform and the possibility of getting jobs for the better surrogates.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: But who knows how he polls against Creed?
Omnes Omnibus
@Miss Bianca: Hey, it was a Young Frankenstein reference.
Miss Bianca
@Kropadope: So you’re not really an asshole, you just play one on the Internet? And then you get all pissy cause people are meeeann to you? Well, whatever blows your dress up, sunshine.
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): ::Shudder::
Kropadope
@FlipYrWhig: I’ve given shit to GoBlue and BiP a few times for being assholes. Clinton assholery is just far, FAR more prevalent on Balloon-Juice and, furthermore, gets directed at me directly regardless of the particular approach to argumentation I take. If you managed not to notice that, try taking off the blinders.
@different-church-lady: I said exactly what the excerpt you posted said. Learn to read and try again.
Kropadope
@Miss Bianca: I played an asshole for a week after a year of trying to logically rebut assholery. What’s your excuse?
Miss Bianca
@Omnes Omnibus: OK…whatever you say…
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Well, we now don’t know if you are playing a different character for laughs. Why should we take this “you” at your word?
Miss Bianca
@Kropadope: oooh, pissy. Well, punkin, maybe *I’m* playing at being an asshole too. Or maybe I am the genuine, bona fide , accept-no-substitutes article.
Damien
Side note about something I’m finding incredibly aggravating: does no one think it’s silly for Bernie and his supporters to complain about how the Democratic system makes it hard for an insurgent candidate to succeed?
We’re having an election to REPLACE A SUCCESSFUL INSURGENT for fuck’s sake. We have proportional delegates, so that an underdog can stay competitive, we have a number of caucuses which favor passionate outsider candidates, and there is 15% of the entire vote that can be persuaded for support above and beyond the raw numbers. Just because the people who have worked with him the longest and most closely decided that Clinton was a better candidate, and just because Bernie lost, does not mean the system is rigged against him.
Out of all the nonsense, I find this most idiotic.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: I’ve been here for ten years. At what point did I seem out of character?
Omnes Omnibus
@Miss Bianca: I find your lack of faith disturbing.
nutella
@LAO:
One of the great legal minds of the 21st century!
Kropadope
@Miss Bianca:
Pissy or painstakingly calling out liars and assholes? I suppose it’s a matter of perspective.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: You are claiming you played a character for a while, You imply that this character is not you. Now you are saying that you are consistent? IOW, you said it not me.
Damien
@Kropadope:
And this addresses my point how? Are there six billion dollars to fund political campaigns do you think? I would personally rather see the right-wing split and weak with left-wingers working together to grow our presence in states like Texas, Colorado, Ohio, Florida, etc. from the ground up. Bernie supporters are always welcome at the next city council or school board meeting, and I look forward to when they decide to come.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kropadope: Feel free to stop taking the pain, Buttercup.
Christ the precious self-importance… and you talk about other people lacking self-awareness?
Miss Bianca
@LAO: @Omnes Omnibus: @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): OK, is it a bad sign that I’m cracking up and whimpering WTF?? on p.2?
Miss Bianca
@Omnes Omnibus: I hear Nyquil is good for that.
patroclus
This a stupid thread; almost pointedly designed to further Sanders-Clinton arguments that are not about issues but are instead about personal insults of individual posters based on polls of voters who usually vote Republican in presidential elections. Count me out.
I would rather it have been about the Richard Ojeda State Senate primary.
Ruckus
@Miss Bianca:
Delusional is such a nice state to live in.
ETA And I did not mean you.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I like this, especially as I approach that “certain age”:
anybody know of a good analysis of the effects of a Medicare buy-in?
different-church-lady
@Kropadope: Upon further review, you are perhaps right: Sanders seemed to be saying that poor voters “don’t turn out” for him, not that they wouldn’t vote for him if they did.
@Kropadope: Sanders himself might not say such things, but plenty of his supporters have attempted to make such arguments. One only need peruse the comments on rec-listed diaries from Daily Kos to see it.
different-church-lady
@patroclus:
Well, it is an Anne Laurie thread, after all.
burnspbesq
@Miss Bianca:
It’s a bad sign for Mr. Bundy. Whoever is paying his attorneys is not getting good value for their money.
jl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
” anybody know of a good analysis of the effects of a Medicare buy-in? ”
Would make for a good column from Richard M. Not sure where the front poster contacts went though.
Anyway, more good signs that we are moving towards a good Bernally Clinters general campaign that will be robust enough to ward off deranged populists (that refers to Trump, all you BernieHaters out there), and moderate enough to look sane and safe and stable to more conservative voters.
Trump has horribly botched his first attempts at pivoting to the middle, or towards sanity, or however you want to describe where he is pivoting from. He may get better though, and that would be a problem. The GOP being a walking zombie that has been halfway chainsawed down the middle is not insurance enough for me for winning the general election.
Mike J
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I would guess significantly south of $33 trillion.
different-church-lady
@Mike J: This is how tired and stressed about health insurance I am: I read that and though, “Where the hell am I going to come up with $33 trillion?”
jl
@different-church-lady: The Sanders-Clinton wars, in real political life, and I think in the candidates’ hearts and minds, is winding down to a constructive close that will produce a strong general election campaign. I hope current good signs continue.
But, the end of it will be a great and grievous loss to some.
gwangung
@jl: To be honest, I hope on one side, supporters can recognize the necessity of a diverse coalition; on the other hand, I’d like the other side to expand their thinking on what is politically practical and be more ambitious.
jl
@gwangung: What matters is that the two candidates can forge something that will bring both camps along, and bring in independents and sane GOPers for the general. I think HRC and Sanders are a great combination to do that to the max, if they can work together.
I don’t care much about grievances and spats that the camp followers seem to be nursing. The vast majority of them will vote in the general election and that is all that matters.
I don’t care if HRC is ‘laundering’ money through the DNC, and I don’t care if Sanders is really a mean self-righteous asshole. They have to work together to get a big Democratic victory in the general election, and I hope they can do that, even if both are as miserable as their respective haters maintain on this blog.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@burnspbesq: I’ll say it again – those Y’all Qaeda folks defendants by federal PDs will have the most competent defense of the crew, providing the clients permit their attorneys to actually do their jobs.
And the ethics investigation against Arnold’s firm could be interesting.
gwangung
@jl: For the short and near term, sure, but for the longer haul and forging a voting bloc, not only nationally but locally, I happen to think the supporters do have to resolve differences.
Brachiator
@Damien:
I don’t much care. In 2008, Clinton pulled a few dubious stunts to try to blunt Obama’s advantage, but finally came around. Sanders is still trying to win and, failing that, trying to have future influence. Isn’t that how it’s supposed to work?
I still expect Clinton to prevail and I expect Sanders to come around.
But you are right that Obama won with this strategy and it makes Sanders look a little whiny.
magurakurin
@Kropadope: Are you still on with this? Get over it and yourself. The primary is over. Water under the bridge at this point.
And if you can’t pull the lever for Clinton against Trump…what can be said? Anyone who votes third party this November is a fuckwit. full stop.
Just Some Fuckhead
@schrodinger’s cat: Hiding Sikh is the only way to be safe.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@nutella:
Were I the judge, I’d call a conference sua sponge and invite Arnold to withdraw the pleading, as it is frivolous. The sanction I’d issue when he refused would be a personal $5000 fine and striking him from the roster of attorneys admitted to practice before me.
Brachiator
@Just Some Fuckhead:
And there was the Asian duo who formed a detective agency and absolutely guaranteed to locate any missing person.
Sikh and Yee shall find.
opiejeanne
@Brachiator: Both of you should be ashamed.
*giggling*
liberal
@Kropadope: I’m not unsympathetic to a lot of what you have to say, but due to Duverger’s Law it’s pretty much hopeless to try to form a third political party.
J R in WV
@NotMax:
He came to WV as a Vista worker, domestic Peace Corp worker living and working in a tiy poor town in the coal fields. Then was elected to the House of Delegates, worked his way up in the Democratic party and in the hearts and minds of the voters. Personally responsible for lots of the work to pass SCHIPS and other children’s health programs.
Worked against Strip Mining in the one campaign he lost to Arch Moore, then he dropped that as a theme because it still is a snakebite in the coal fields but never stopped working for improving environmental regulations.
Turned out to be a very good senator, even though I was pretty skeptical about the carpetbagger with the famous family name in domestic corporate terrorism (see Ludlow Massacre in Colorado coal field). Mrs J met him many times and thought he was second only to Robert Byrd in hard working for WV. Mrs J also knew Byrd well, once was flying with him in a small plane to interview him during the flight, got motion sickness and barfed in his lap. She said he was very gracious and helpful as she tried to recover her wits. And for years after he was accessible to her, as opposed to revolted by the memory of her.
And don’t give me any of that KKK BS, Senator Byrd went to night school and got a law degree and learned his way out of his southern ignorance, and spent the rest of his life doing good work with every color of constituent. How ignorant he was as the age of 20-something after growing up in Sophia WV back in the 1930s and ’40s is not relevant to the totality of his accomplishments.