And now a moment of Ahhh

I’ve got nothing interesting so Open Thread.

117 replies
  1. 1
    Baud says:

    I’ll have to incorporate this into Baudcare. Perfect.

  2. 2
    Cermet says:

    Whether I am gone for fifteen minutes or all day, my St. Bernard greets me in the same basic manner: over-the-top I need your affection and I am sooooo happy you have returned. Rather nice and makes the drool and shedding so worth while, too.

  3. 3
    satby says:

    My big old chocolate lab – pit bull mix Hershey kept me up most of the night vomiting or being agitated because he needed to vomit. He seems fine now so whatever it was must be out of his system.
    Last week it was his bonded mate Rosie, my very elderly epileptic black lab, who had such a bad cluster of seizures I thought I was going to lose her at 3 in the morning. And she bounced right back after the seizures were over and hasn’t had one since (she’s been on meds for years). Just once I’d like somebody to get sick during daylight hours.

  4. 4
    BGinCHI says:

    My son is almost always really happy to see me when I pick him up from pre-school. And 5 seconds later he wants to know if we can get an ice cream.

    Dogs and small children have so many similarities.

  5. 5
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @BGinCHI: Enjoy it while it lasts. Somewhere around 14 or 15 you will be the last person he wants to see. ;-)

  6. 6
    Juju says:

    @satby: dogs only get sick at night after vet hours or on weekends. I think they’ve all taken a pledge.

  7. 7
    Punchy says:

    @BGinCHI: My spawn cries when I go to pick her up from pre-school, because she doesnt want to leave. Either the school is wicked fun or our house is boring. Probably both….(sigh).

  8. 8
    rikyrah says:

    Morning Mayhew.

    What a cute pic.

  9. 9
    Bartholomew says:

    Hey John Cole, you know that thing where you discount views of your liberal fellow citizens in order to join a paid team of bloggers to blindly push a politician of the corrupt establishment into Presidential office to the detriment of your stated values and your nation?

    Well … you’re doing it again. Happy Patriot’s Day!

  10. 10
    Yutsano says:

    Had to wake up super early on a super long day. Pretty sure I’m gonna be bitchy at work. Then saw someone 2 threads down happy to have a revenue officer on their case. Mind. Blown.

  11. 11
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Yutsano: My one in-depth personal interaction with your agency a few years back to resolve an issue my elderly mother had was completely professional, helpful and pleasant.

  12. 12
    LAO says:

    @satby: My childhood chocolate lab was also name Hershey (i though we were the only unoriginal ones), hope both he and Rosie feel better. Like Rosie, my Hershey suffered from epileptic seizures too. It was very sad.

  13. 13
    Splitting Image says:


    Hey Bartholomew, you know that thing where you reply to someone’s post about a funny dog pic with a comment calling out a completely different person for a completely unrelated political issue?

    Well … you’re doing it again. Happy Broncos Day!

  14. 14
    MobiusKlein says:

    @Bartholomew: this is the ahhh thread. I think the grrr thread is showing up at 10

  15. 15
    rikyrah says:

    Much thanks to the poster in the previous thread for the link to the Dalia Lithwick article at Slate about the GOP being pissed about the SC not crapping on POTUS this year. Had never thought of it that way.

  16. 16
    scav says:

    @Splitting Image: Must be that immeasurably superior ability to identify the real issues before the nation unlike every other person in the world kicking in. The “real” liberal attention to context and reality are demonstrably unmatched. Not to mention the superior x-ray vision to identify the corrupting cash-flow motivation of anyone so benighted as to have, let alone voice, a differing opinion. Angels stride amidst us.

  17. 17
    rikyrah says:

    Generation’s biggest immigration case gets its day in court
    04/18/16 08:00 AM
    By Steve Benen
    For nearly six years, U.S. policymaking on immigration was stuck. The Obama administration had already increased border security and enforcement in the hopes of creating the political conditions necessary for legislative changes, but congressional Republicans wouldn’t budge. GOP lawmakers said, repeatedly and in no uncertain terms, that there would be no compromise.

    In November 2014, soon after the midterm elections, President Obama announced he’d found a way forward, overhauling immigration policy through his executive authority. The result was a policy known as DAPA – Deferred Action for Parental Accountability – in which the White House, among other things, extended temporary status to millions of undocumented immigrants, shielding them from deportation threats and allowing them to apply for work permits.

    At the time, the Justice Department took the unusual step of publishing a dense, 33-page legal memo, explaining in great detail exactly why the president’s executive actions are legally permissible under existing laws, rulings, and precedents. Federalist Society members couldn’t come up with a constitutional objection; Obama’s actions are in line with what some of his Republican predecessors did without incident; and the whole legal argument against Obama’s actions seemed a little silly.

    The White House’s Republican critics, however, felt a little differently, and 26 states a filed suit challenging DAPA. As Vox’s Dara Lind explained over the weekend, oral arguments in this case are scheduled for this morning at the Supreme Court. United States v. Texas, she noted, is “the most important immigration case the Supreme Court has taken up in a generation (or, arguably, a century).”

  18. 18
    Capri says:

    My dog sleeps in a crate that is directly next to the bed. Every morning when I let her out she acts like she hasn’t seen me in months. That 10 inches of separation is enough.

  19. 19
    NotMax says:

    Not the most imaginative of names for a research vessel, yet it conveys a certain innocent whimsy.

  20. 20
    EdinNJ says:


    So true, only in my case it’s a 13 AND 14 year old. So we did the only thing we could, adopted a 1 year old dorgi about 2 months back that is ecstatic to see me, whether I’m gone for a few minutes or the day.

  21. 21
    J R in WV says:


    Better a corrupt scion of the establishment than Trump and his raging Fascism or Rafael “The Canadian” Cruz and his raging Dominionism that would burn people at the stake to help bring the end times.

    You sound quite around the bend describing competent politicians as evil conspirators when there are evil conspirators all around you going unseen.


    Richard, Thanks for the great gif of a boy and his dog – or should that be a dawg and his boy!! Gives us a lift past the RWNJs crawling in the french drains.

  22. 22
    rikyrah says:

    Uh huh
    Uh huh

    N.C. NAACP leader Barber removed from flight in D.C.

    “Yes, I am not at all happy about what I believe were the real reasons I was the one asked to leave,” Barber said. “My training and experiences with non-violent civil disobedience, and my deep faith, however, made my decision to peacefully comply with the order to get off the plane an easy one.

    “I turned the matter over to my legal counselors, one here and one in Washington DC.”

    Although Barber questioned his removal, the N.C. Republican Party issued a statement Saturday faulting the leader of the Moral Mondays protests for delaying the flight for other passengers.

    “I guess Rev. Barber thinks it’s ‘moral’ to inconvenience other passengers wanting to get home to see their families, because he once again thinks his ‘right’ to say and do whatever he wants is more important than other law abiding citizens who conduct themselves under society’s rules of civil behavior,” said Michele Nix, vice chair of the state GOP.

  23. 23
    D58826 says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Except as a mobile ATM when they need a spot of cash:-)

  24. 24
    J R in WV says:


    Good morning Rikyrah!! You need to click on the photo, because it’s a movie. And it’s better moving than the excellent photo it is without moving.

  25. 25
    FlyingToaster (Tablet) says:

    @Punchy: That was my daughter; at 3 years old she was there 9-12 and she wanted to stay to 3; at 5 she was in 9-3 and demanded to stay to 5:30.

    These days, the first two terms she was in 8:30-4:15, and couldn’t have been happier. This last term she only has two classes, so three days a week I pick her up in the driveway line. It saves a lot of arguments.

  26. 26
    PurpleGirl says:

    The video didn’t play for me. Hugo (a Doberman pinscher) would run rings around me when I arrived in the house in Peekskill. Nick had trained him not to jump up on people. So if Hugo liked you, he’d go crazy running around you and bowing down at you and then running around again. Whenever I went to Peekskill Hugo became my shadow. I miss that silly dog.

  27. 27
    negative 1 says:

    OK I’m not trying to start a war, I’m just going to go out and ask…
    To all HRC supporters — please make me a case for voting for her without a.) disparaging another candidate or their supporters or b.) saying ‘better than the alternative’.
    Background — I myself am a staunch socialist, a real one not Bernie-style social democracy, (but that said he was the closest candidate to my own beliefs in a long time). I work for a union and will soon need to start convincing our members to vote Hillary (sorry Bernie fans but he’s not winning NY). So… specifically here are the issues they will care about that I am truly ignorant of her positions on (the more concrete the better, so not ad speak like “I’m for smarter policies” because who really says they’re for dumber policies:
    1.) Globalization — pro or con, what will she try and do and how exactly does her plan bring jobs to the US?
    2.) How will she, or will she, deal with bank’s size and tremendous profits and 2b.) if it’s an extra tax on speculative transactions, how exactly would that help?
    3.) College tuition and college financial aid relief — does she have a plan for this?

    As far as I can tell every member we have who wants Bernie (which is basically all of them) speaks of these as their biggest concerns and the issues they like Bernie better on. So concrete policies would help, these people are pretty politically educated relative to the general public. No I’m not trolling, no I’m not interested in how Bernie is better or how HRC sucks, I’m truly looking for her positions on these so I can try and help the Dem vote in the general. Thanks y’all.

  28. 28
    rikyrah says:

    Cruz vows not to ban sexual devices if elected
    04/18/16 10:00 AM
    By Steve Benen
    If the combination of presidential politics and sex is bound to get attention, Mother Jones published a gem last week, noting that Ted Cruz, during his tenure as Texas’ solicitor general, helped defend a law criminalizing the sale of adult sexual devices.

    As David Corn’s article documented, Cruz, before he was elected to the Senate, co-authored a legal brief in 2007, urging the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals to uphold “a Texas law outlawing the sale and promotion of supposedly obscene devices.” The brief compared the use of sex toys to “hiring a willing prostitute or engaging in consensual bigamy,” and it equated advertising these products with the commercial promotion of prostitution. The legal filing also declared, “There is no substantive-due-process right to stimulate one’s genitals for non-medical purposes unrelated to procreation or outside of an interpersonal relationship.”

    BuzzFeed reported that the senator was asked about the article during a radio interview last week.
    Cruz, asked by WABC radio host Curtis Sliwa if he would ban “the sale of sexual toys, dildos, or anything that sexually stimulates you,” answered that he would not.

    “Look, of course not, it’s a ridiculous question, and of course not,” Cruz told Sliwa on Friday. “What people do in their own private time with themselves is their own business and it’s none of government’s business.”
    Say hello to Ted Cruz, sexual libertine.

    The clarification was hardly a surprise – the Mother Jones piece made the rounds quickly, and Cruz was bound to face a question or two about it – and there was no reason to believe the senator would allow this to be part of his presidential platform.

    But there is that nagging question just below the surface: if Cruz is prepared to argue that it’s “none of government’s business” when Americans do “in their own private time,” how does the senator reconcile this with his support for government laws restricting reproductive rights and marriage equality?

  29. 29
    rikyrah says:

    UH HUH
    UH HUH


    Tone deafness on women a well-established John Kasich pattern

    Rachel Maddow reviews a cringe-worthy series of video clips of Republican presidential candidate and Ohio governor, John Kasich being sexist, condescending or simply tone deaf in his dealings with women.

  30. 30
    sherparick says:

    @Bartholomew: People can disagree with Bernie and believe Hilary will be the better President and not be on Goldman Sachs payroll. I hate been “affinity” argued into supporting a candidate.

  31. 31
    FlyingToaster (Tablet) says:

    @scav: @Bartholomew: Purity trolls are many things. Tedious, pedantic, and, yes trolls.

    Pure — not so much.

    I don’t see any of y’all getting banned, so try stating your case without the ad hominem attacks and whining.

    If you add links to evidence of your claims, even better.

    Or get ignored for acting like WATBs.

    –Safely away from home for Patriots’ Day — note the ‘ goes after the s.

  32. 32
    EZSmirkzz says:

    Look at the bright side of things, a five hundred year flood in Houston and the traffic lights are still working on the rivers and streams.

    Is this a great country or what?

  33. 33
    scav says:

    @FlyingToaster (Tablet): I mock where I find cause. And I giggle at finger-waving over deliberately low-hanging fruit. post in question was not exactly an object-lesson in apt, referenced, nuanced, positive- focused argumentation.

  34. 34
    gogol's wife says:

    @negative 1:


  35. 35
    Davebo says:


    It’s bad. I’m an hour and a half out of town and got up to head back this morning. Quickly decided to stay put for now.

  36. 36
    cleek says:

    @negative 1:
    “better than the alternative” is a fundamental property of the US political system. you can’t disregard it.

    nobody will ever agree with everything a candidate stands for, let alone what that person will do when elected. but, if you think you can get 50% from candidate A and -80% from candidate B, the choice is simple.

  37. 37
    bystander says:

    This morning I was treated to a clip of Savannah Guthrie asking Sanders if he agreed with Trump’s calling Clinton “crooked”. Sanders told her that only “media types” like her are interested in what Trump says and generally refused to play along. Guthrie is so vapid it’s a wonder she’s not on faux.

    Sanders is looking exhausted. Maybe it’s me, but he looks as if he knows it’s all over after tomorrow if Clinton wins by the margin predicted.

  38. 38
    Capri says:

    @negative 1: If the last 8 years has taught us anything, it’s that Presidents are not dictators. They have no power of the purse, and can not enact legislation. They only get things done if they work with folks in congress and compromise. So Hilary’s specific positions aren’t actually all that important to me other than the fact that she’ll be approaching these issues from the left. Having a rock solid stance on any issue actually lowers the chances that it will be addressed. Maybe that’s a cynical take on things, but this is politics we’re talking about. As a friend of mine who was involved in getting some horse-related legislature passed once told me, “The crazy thing about politics is how political it is.”

  39. 39
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @negative 1:

    All of those issues are legislative issues. Neither Bernie nor Hillary are dictators, and both will need more Democrats in the House and Senate to make any progress, and just to keep what rights we already have in place. Not sure why this is such a hard sell.

    ETA: if Sanders were the nominee, his tax plan, once demagogued and misrepresented by our willfully stupid media, will have everyone running away screaming. Guaranteed fail.

  40. 40
    Unsympathetic says:


    Cole’s not blind.
    Clinton’s not corrupt.
    Sanders is a part of the establishment.
    Clinton’s election wouldn’t be a detriment to anything.

    You know that thing where you have no actual content in your post? You’re doing it again.

    Sanders voted to keep Guantanamo OPEN. Sanders voted FOR the crime bill in 1994 [a bill that included no such assault weapons ban]. Sanders voted FOR the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 that installed the 3/10 bans on immigration. And finally, Sanders voted FOR the 2000 CFMA, on the short list of most egregious bills removing Wall Street regulation.

    Clinton and Sanders voted the same way 93% of the time.. so if Clinton’s votes demonstrate her corruption, Sanders is just as corrupt [because when you look at the specific bills where they differed, they were all for relatively pointless things].

    Don’t like discussions of Sanders’ actual voting record? Tough. The only way he’s “different” or “unique” is if you ignore his voting history.

    Sanders is the liberal version of Paul Ryan – he’s got no policies other than assertion.

  41. 41
    Mike J says:

    @gogol’s wife: Ted Kennedy credited Hillary with getting CHIP passed. When in the Senate, she expanded it into S-CHIP. This alone has done more to help poor people in the US than 10,000 pan banging rallies ever could.

    She brought Iran to the negotiating table setting the scene for Obama’s nuke deal.

    She’s battle tested and an inspirational leader who has topped the list of most admired women for decades.

  42. 42
    MomSense says:

    @negative 1:

    1) is a tough one because I’m not sure there is much to be done on this one and I think it is a much more complicated problem. Currently both Clinton and Sanders are both against the TPP.
    2) size of the banks isn’t so much the issue now. Dodd Frank actually deals with risk quite well. The real problem is still shadow banking and Clinton’s plans address this problem comprehensively. NYT’s Krugman just wrote a piece on the size issue in the last four days or so.
    3) Clinton has some excellent plans for student loan refinancing and forgiveness.
    I’m adding the four of foreign policy because I think it will be a huge factor in this election and it is a real strength for Clinton especially because the Republicans are so ignorant of the basics and Clinton is so well regarded internationally.

  43. 43
    Mike J says:


    Sanders voted FOR the crime bill in 1994 [a bill that included no such assault weapons ban].

    While standing in a high school lunchroom for the LD caucus yesterday, I got to use the line, “a vote for Bernie is a vote for more Columbines.”

  44. 44
    Technocrat says:

    @negative 1:

    So… specifically here are the issues they will care about that I am truly ignorant of her positions on

    Wouldn’t her website be the best place for the definitive version of her policies? I don’t know that I’d trust some random internet commenter over the horse’s mouth.

    Not that our RIC’s aren’t great. But still.

  45. 45
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Bartholomew: fuck off, dickhead.

  46. 46
    Juju says:

    @bystander: What is the predicted margin?

  47. 47
    Cermet says:

    I am so sick of the stupid relative to trade treaties that it is getting painful to see the same idiotic statements. If you really think that by not negotiating and signing a treaty we will get to keep jobs that can be farmed out at lower wages to other countries that have educated people willing to work for far less, you are in a dream world. Those jobs are history whether we sign or not. Without trade barriers and capital outflow control laws those jobs leave no matter what. Trade deals are the best of a bad situation that we ever get – at least we get some say in what happens, how fast and what they can and can not get away with – all beneficial to our case. Unless you think a trade war and closing our economy will work (might as well include the gold standard), the treaties are the best deal we will get; and frankly, we often do benefit more and get some jobs in return.

  48. 48
    Davebo says:

    @Juju: 10% I believe.

  49. 49
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:


    Also universal pre-K and childcare. Not as sexy a sell to college age millennials, though.

  50. 50
    rikyrah says:

    @negative 1:

    The Supreme Court.

    Look at the cases on the docket.

    Look at what they thought they were going to destroy -but Scalia’s DEATH put a halt to it.

    From the Lithwick article today:

    What this case really means—and this is important—is that insofar as this entire term was intended to do away with Obama’s immigration action, and Obama’s climate action, and “one person one vote,” and public-sector unions, and the right to choose, and Obama’s birth-control subsidy, well, that isn’t going to happen.

    ALLLLLL of this…they thought the SC would take a hatchet to.

    Why don’t you think about the MILLIONS of your fellow citizens that would be affected if a REPUBLICAN gets to fill that SC seat.

  51. 51
    EZSmirkzz says:

    @Davebo: If you’re home you’ll notice that one station KPRC, located on the SW Freeway is off air, the other two ABC and CBS are staying on top of it all. It’s seriously fouled up up there right now.

    Flight delays into Houston, 37 minutes at Bush IAH and 1:37 hrs at Hobby. I-45 seriously impeded. Flooding occurring a long ways away from normal flood prone areas, so those that flooded on Memorial Day are under water again, other areas not flooded then, are doing so now.

    You guys hang tough up there.

  52. 52
    magurakurin says:


    This is what you need to do. Every morning stand in front of the mirror and get used to saying “Madam President.” Repeat as long as needed.

  53. 53
    Mike J says:


    Flight delays into Houston, 37 minutes at Bush IAH

    Jetero, please.

  54. 54
    bystander says:

    @Mike J: Yes, but Whitewater.

  55. 55
    magurakurin says:

    @negative 1: your vote is your own. Do your own research. Your vote is not my responsibility. Clinton is running, not me. She has a website. I’ d start there.

  56. 56
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:


    Voters don’t want to hear that, and every politician knows it, rails against it, makes promises that are impossible to keep and when nothing changes because reality has a way of intruding, the voters all blame the politicians’ failure to be the green lantern, and either wake up to reality and become pragmatic, or become the Tea Party of either the left or the right, which this cycle is the Trumpenlumpen/Bernie or Bust bunch. rinse and repeat.

  57. 57
    EZSmirkzz says:

    @Mike J: Too cryptic friend.

    60% of the watersheds are out of their banks.

    KPRC is back up. JSYK

  58. 58
    MomSense says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    And free tuition will do nothing to help the students who are currently in school or who graduated into a recession economy and cannot catch a break.

    I cannot wake up the kids to take them hiking so I’m going to have to reschedule for tomorrow. Also too my living room floor seems to covered in a layer of potato chip crumbs. Brats.

  59. 59
    MomSense says:

    @Cermet: @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    There is another issue that we never discuss because it highlights how our values can be in competition. The high paid, union, manufacturing jobs that offer great benefits and wages that make a comfortable middle class lifestyle possible in my state are building naval destroyers. Look up the DDG. One of my friends who worked there until his retirement about five years ago was devastated when he realized how many missiles fired off destroyers he helped build killed so many civilians in the Iraq war.

  60. 60
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:


    And free tuition will do nothing to help the students who are currently in school or who graduated into a recession economy and cannot catch a break.

    My millennial daughter is so scornful of her college educated peers on this subject – the over-entitled white kids she knows who have been raised to have everything fall out of the sky into their outstretched hands are the biggest Bernfeelers, and are under-employed now, yet live in New York somehow (parents). The ones who never had to work a job through high school of course, and always had decent cars.

  61. 61
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:


    I like to go to Bath a lot – the downtown is quaint with a couple of favorite shops of mine and a lovely restaurant. Imagine the Iron Works going away. Almost every Congressional district in the country has a military or government contractor, which provides good jobs with benefits. I hate to let the cat out of the bag here, but the DOD is one huge welfare program. What will replace that? President Sanders will need all of those Congressmen in those districts to agree to shut that all down to fund college and universal health care. Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy, because reasons.

  62. 62
    Miss Bianca says:

    @negative 1: y’know…. it’s easy enough to do some research yourself. But here are some sources to get you started:

    There’s a lot of information out there on HRC’s policy positions.

  63. 63
    MomSense says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    From what I understand from my environmentalist friends, there are huge trade incentives in the TPP to buy wind and solar tech (and other green products) from our manufacturers. It’s not getting any coverage really but the way the stimulus funds, tax incentives, government investment in R&D, low oil prices, the Paris Accord and the TPP work together to create a green tech industry and markets will be a huge win for the US.

  64. 64
    negative 1 says:

    @MomSense: Thank you! I can’t find the Krugman article, everything I’ve read from Hillary’s website (through Think Progress’s link) has her saying that enforcing Dodd-Frank is the key — which means that she seems to be happy with capping at current size but force them to disclose risk more effectively.
    @Technocrat: No, although you’d think it, her website like every other political website is all but impossible to read (here’s every candidate’s website, ever: “I’m for the good parts of it and the bad parts are bad! Because families kids and the future!”
    I appreciate everyone’s help, but seriously no elevator pitches here? Telling me I’m wrong about our own membership’s priorities is a non-starter, and by the way telling someone their own priorities is as well. You may disagree and say that foreign policy is the most important, and hey, to you it is, but you will never convince someone else that they should care more about something else.

  65. 65
    Davebo says:

    @EZSmirkzz: I’ve seen a lot of floods in Houston but I’ve never seen the TV station go offline. It’s back on now.

    Over 400 flights cancelled at IAH and Hobby is shut down. Gives me a good excuse to spend another night visiting with my parents up here on Lake Livingston.

  66. 66
    MomSense says:

    @negative 1:

    Here’s one and an advance FYWP if the link doesn’t work.

    Victory Against the Shadows

  67. 67
    Gin & Tonic says:


    Also too my living room floor seems to covered in a layer of potato chip crumbs.

    It’s obvious you don’t have a dog.

  68. 68
    cleek says:

    also, “trade” is actually pretty popular among actual Democrats, nevermind what the TPP-screamers say:

    However, the most recent Pew polling shows anti-trade sentiments have now surged among Republicans (with 40 percent calling free trade a good thing vs. 52 percent seeing it as a bad thing). Those who support candidate Donald Trump are especially anti-trade (67 percent said it was a bad thing vs. 27 percent a good thing). Even though Democratic candidates Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders have said they oppose the TPP, most Democrats support trade (60 percent good thing vs. 30 percent bad thing).

    Overall, 51 percent of Americans say such trade agreements have been a good thing for this country, while 39 percent believe they’ve been a bad thing, according to Pew.

  69. 69
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @negative 1:

    If we believed in bumper sticker sayings, we’d all be for Trump. How ’bout Bernie as president will be the dog who caught the car and doesn’t know how things work and has alienated everyone who would be inclined to help him, and Hillary will be handed the keys to a sweet sweet ride – basically a turn key operation. But then her appeal to me has always been that she’s as close to Obama’s third term as possible. Trump and Sanders are basically vying over who can tear up all of PBO’s progress by the roots. That’s not very progressive, but then I’m a liberal not a progressive.

  70. 70
    MomSense says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Oh she’s in heaven right now. She’s rooting around on the floor like a truffle hog. She’s trying to push the boys out of the way and they are so tired they aren’t even waking up.

  71. 71
    Miss Bianca says:

    @negative 1: “elevator speeches”? OK, now this is *really* starting to sound like, “do my homework for me.”

  72. 72
  73. 73
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:


    the way the stimulus funds, tax incentives, government investment in R&D, low oil prices, the Paris Accord and the TPP work together to create a green tech industry and markets will be a huge win for the US.

    Too long for a bumper sticker.

  74. 74
    negative 1 says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: Not a bumper sticker saying, but when someone says to you “I won’t vote for Hillary because she’s in the pocket of the big banks” and you can counter with “Dodd-Frank worked to stop GE Financial and MetLife and Hillary wants to continue it” it’s infinitely more useful than saying “nuh-uh”. I’m on your side, now help me get others there please. Pissing contests over the difference between liberal and progressive are pointless; everyone reading this blog will vote Dem. In the real world we donate millions to Dem candidates nationwide, but if our membership is butthurt over which Dem gets chosen we will stay out of it. Sorry, that’s how these things go. So, again, elevator pitches help, and no I don’t mean slogans. If you can’t explain something easily there’s a chance that there is actually no answer.

  75. 75
  76. 76
    J R in WV says:

    @negative 1:

    Here you go,

    There’s page and pages of Hillary’s positions on all kinds of issues, some of which directly address things you mention and others which are nearby what you mention.

    You visit this page and pick what you want to read. No one here is qualified to address your issues on behalf of the Clinton campaign.

  77. 77
    MomSense says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    OK bumper sticker attempts.

    TPP creates incentives for our trading partners to buy USA made green energy technology and products. Good for our wallets. Good for our earth.

    ETA more like elevator speech

  78. 78
    EZSmirkzz says:

    @Davebo: Things are starting to look up, (?) up Nawth, but it’s getting dark out here in the S. boondocks.

    Being reminded by one and all that the mobile apps are are also too working. As one and all know however, modern technology frightens and confuses me, (that and saving juice on the charged last night batteries,) so maybe Barry can sigh an emergency declaration so my taxes aren’t filed late. (Hint, hint.)

    Also too, your candidates sucks, get over it.

  79. 79
    rikyrah says:

    I’m still a little shocked by this. I don’t know why, but I am.



    Indiana GOP stacks deck against Donald Trump before primary vote

    Niki Kelly, reporter for the Fort Wayne Journal Gazette, talks with Rachel Maddow about the Indiana Republican Party choosing its delegates before there has even been a primary vote, and so far only one of 57 appears to be a Trump supporter regardless of who wins the primary.

  80. 80
    scav says:

    I’d personally be happier with a solid team of people going to bat for the range of issues that face the nation. One person, even if insprational, isn’t going to do it, especially in light if the institutuionalized, even vaunted, toddler obstructionism of the will-never-compromise Tea-party wing. There are times where a single star player can inspire, but even they they usually require the backing of an entire team, and there are times where a well-orchestrated team can power through without a pima donna. I think a union member might understand that.

  81. 81
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @negative 1:

    Barney Frank, of Dodd-Frank, has given his unqualified support to Clinton because she understands the issues, and according to him, Sanders was nothing but a scoldy obstructionist PITA.

  82. 82
    rikyrah says:

    uh huh

    uh huh


    Flint water crisis unaddressed, Snyder keeps talking

    Michigan State Senator Jim Ananich, who represents the city of Flint, talks with Rachel Maddow about Governor Rick Snyder’s new broad water quality proposals as Flint enters its third year with water poisoned by the Snyder administration and still no state action is helping resolve the problem.

  83. 83
    Betty Cracker says:

    @negative 1: My hubby is a Sanders supporter, and I voted for Clinton in our primary. Hubby and I are both going to vote for whichever Democrat wins in the general because we’re not stupid, but when we’ve discussed the merits of Clinton vs. Sanders, the argument for Clinton that seems to resonate best with him is to point out that Obama and the Democrats orchestrated the single largest top-down transfer of wealth in American history in the ACA and that Clinton would protect that accomplishment rather than spending political capital on a futile attempt to replace it with single payer.

    Hubby would rather have single payer than the ACA. So would I, and so would, I suspect, Obama and Clinton, but political realities being what they are, we need to protect and expand that incremental achievement.

    I know you said you wanted arguments that don’t call into question the other candidate’s abilities to deliver, but that’s not realistic. Every political decision requires balancing the aspirational with the possible, and Clinton seems to have a better grasp on that than Sanders. Probably because he began his campaign as a protest candidate who had no clue he’d end up doing as well as he did, Sanders makes “political revolution” a prerequisite for the sweeping changes he wants to lead, and that would have been swell if Democrats, independents and even a goodly chunk of Republicans had risen as one to embrace his agenda, which would augur the dramatic turnover in Congress such an agenda would require as well. But that didn’t happen. No political revolution, no Sanders agenda.

    I suspect this isn’t the argument you’re looking for — you want something more inspiring. Well, I find Clinton inspiring since she’s an intelligent, experienced woman who has creditably represented the US all over the world and accomplished a lot legislatively and by other means to help women, children and working families (CHIP being just one example). But at the end of the day, she’s a politician, just as they all are. So the bottom line is which is better at his or her job (of being a politician) and which is more likely to keep the Orcs out of power, because SCOTUS, etc. That should be good enough for a thinking person.

  84. 84
    MomSense says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Well said, Betty.

  85. 85
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Miss Bianca: sort of. It’s sea lioning.

  86. 86
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @negative 1:

    “If you don’t vote Democratic, Flint will eventually come to you too.”
    “If you don’t vote Democratic, your daughters will be denied birth control and prosecuted for having an abortion”
    “If you don’t vote Democratic, your wife and daughters will be denied equal pay for equal work”
    “If you don’t vote Democratic, you won’t be eligible to collect Social Security until you’re 70”
    “If you don’t vote Democratic, you and your children will never see another pristine national park”
    “If you don’t vote Democratic, you will remember fondly the days when there were regulations keeping poisons out of our food, air and water”

    As a start.

  87. 87
    cleek says:

    @negative 1:

    but when someone says to you “I won’t vote for Hillary because she’s in the pocket of the big banks”

    that’s easy: there’s no evidence of it.

    it’s nonsense.

    the evidence for it is that she gave speeches to financial companies for $225K per speech. entirely true!

    but she also gave dozens and dozens of speeches to businesses and group like The Gap, Verizon, the Economic Club of Grand Rapids, the American Jewish University, the National Association of Convenience Stores, The Vancouver Board of Trade, Institute of Scrap Recycling Industries, Inc., etc, etc.. ( ) so either she’s in the pocket of Big Denim, or there’s something special about bank money that compels corruption in ways that the Gap’s money doesn’t.

    and, as to the $225K number, well, that’s just what someone with her credentials gets for a speech. all her peers get similar amounts.

  88. 88
    MomSense says:


    Wall Street money is going to Republicans this time. They aren’t even trying to make it seem divided.

  89. 89
    negative 1 says:

    @J R in WV: See above — sorry her website is as useless as is every other candidates. I’ve read it, just like Bernie’s it’s basically “I’m for the good parts of the issue, and I’m against the bad parts! I do this because working middle class main street children future!” The thing is I find that if you actually listen to a candidates supporters they make excellent points about what they like about their candidates, and frequently ground the topic in a way that focus groups just can’t seem to. I’m all ears, and you’re probably smarter than you are giving yourself credit for.

    @Betty Cracker: I don’t disagree, the problem is the intensity of that support. Right now I’m pretty sure I could blow our whole PAC budget on Bernie and get a near-unanimous vote. Labor folks I talk to don’t really like Bill — NAFTA is a long shadow, and fairly or not it is cast over Hillary. So the general feeling I get is that people will vote for Hillary if they bother to vote at all but we won’t campaign for Hillary, which, again, regardless of how you feel about it means a monetary difference in support. Is she rich enough not to care? Probably, but these things end up helping downticket as well.

  90. 90
    Miss Bianca says:

    @MomSense: @Betty Cracker: Seconded. Hear, hear, Betty Cracker!

    This, btw, is what I found sort of scary at the state delegate convention. The Sanders supporters had a lot of passion and sweeping rhetoric on their side to get everyone fired up. Whereas the Clinton supporters were just sincere and dogged, and didn’t sound as rhetorically impressive. so when Ken Salazar finally, flat-out blurted out that, having worked with both Sanders and Clinton he was supporting Clinton because she was just more experienced and more qualified to be President, the claque of BernieBros absolutely *booed* him. H’mmm…maybe negative 1 is right…maybe we *do* need some more inspiring elevator speeches!

  91. 91
    Luthe says:

    @negative 1: Here’s my bumper sticker size elevator pitch: SHE KNOWS WHAT THE FUCK SHE’S DOING. Which is an argument none of her competitors can make.

    Anything else us fine B-J commenters can Google for you?

  92. 92
    negative 1 says:

    @Luthe: So far I consider myself a whole lot more educated on Dodd-Frank, although I’m sure convincing others to support a candidate is a waste of your time. Makes me wonder why you’re bothering commenting on a political blog, though.

  93. 93
    Calouste says:

    @negative 1: Clinton promises to continue what Obama has achieved over the last 8 years.

    Now you make the case why you should vote for someone who doesn’t want to do continue with what Obama has achieved, who is hiding his tax returns (he has released less of his tax returns than Carly Fiorina and Mitt fucking Romney), and has been lying about those tax returns at “the dog ate my homework” level.

  94. 94
    Betty Cracker says:

    @negative 1: How did/does your union feel about President Obama? While his spouse didn’t sign NAFTA, his positions on trade were/are virtually indistinguishable from Hillary Clinton’s, except H. Clinton has now said she won’t sign TPP in its present form, which is usually interpreted as the more pro-labor stance. Just trying to get a bead on whether they are persuadable.

  95. 95
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Miss Bianca: Or maybe what we really need is a more informed electorate.

    After the uprising of the 17th June
    The Secretary of the Writers Union
    Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
    Stating that the people
    Had forfeited the confidence of the government
    And could win it back only
    By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
    In that case for the government
    To dissolve the people
    And elect another? – Bertolt Brecht

    Brecht was being ironic. I find it somewhat disturbing that I wish, unironically, we really *could* dissolve the people and elect another.

  96. 96
    gwangung says:


    the evidence for it is that she gave speeches to financial companies for $225K per speech. entirely true!

    but she also gave dozens and dozens of speeches to businesses and group like The Gap, Verizon, the Economic Club of Grand Rapids, the American Jewish University, the National Association of Convenience Stores, The Vancouver Board of Trade, Institute of Scrap Recycling Industries, Inc., etc, etc..

    Yeah. This.

    If that’s supposed to influence her, it’d be way more effective if it dwarfed all her other income. As one of many fees (all in the same ball park monetarily), I’m having trouble seeing how it would affect her more than anything else.

  97. 97
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @Miss Bianca:

    My experience on social media has been as soon as I start asking Sanders supporters how any of his programs will be implemented, my questions get deleted or the post gets taken down, and when they get called on their dismissiveness of the “then what?” part of the post revolution, it’s because of my arrogance and smugness, and my failure to buy into CLAP HARDER makes me corrupt and a shill for Wall Street and no better than a Republican. Hard to fight black and white passion with grey reasoning.

  98. 98
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @negative 1: But the question that’s not clear to me, at least, is what you want to accomplish. Do you want to convince your union brethren to support Hillary over Bernie in next Tuesday’s primary? Or do you want to convince them to support Hillary in the general election once she becomes the nominee? If it’s the latter, it’s simple: look at the trend of the Supreme Court lately with respect to unions. Voting (and getting out the vote) for the Democrat in November is life and death for you. You *must have* a Democrat filling the Scalia vacancy and any others that may arise over the next four years.

  99. 99
    negative 1 says:

    @Betty Cracker: Actually they are of two minds — on the whole they love him, but the person in charge of the specific industry that affects us is horrible, has always been horrible, and as a matter of fact is much-maligned throughout all progressive circles (he’s basically a Rahm/Chicago guy). The effect of this hasn’t been as much critical to Obama (although there are a few that are ) as much as critical of strategy — that we endorsed WAY too early and didn’t seek any kind of bargains like “we’ll endorse, and give this much, but we want ______ gone.” The irony is that the national leadership backed HRC early but the states are varying between “you want her, you deal with it” to outright rebellion. The issue is that the national PAC will (and has) donated but the states basically kick in as much combined and haven’t yet touched her to my knowledge. I know we haven’t, and we’ve unofficially backed Bernie. The reason I think that this will matter is that when the primaries are over I fear every state will just sit on the sidelines, which is problematic both downticket and for future PAC collections (“you’ll just use my money for sellouts like Hillary!”)

  100. 100
    negative 1 says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Basically I’d like them to have a positive reason to vote for her rather than a negative one, as it helps downticket support as well. Yes, *I* understand the supreme court argument, but ironically the membership doesn’t really care. They care more about their union than unions as a cause, if that makes sense. Hence as a rule union members tend to be centrist to mildly conservative relative to most dem voters, while in the union employees ranks is where you get hardcore progressives or socialists or anyone else (myself included).

  101. 101
    Mike J says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Sanders makes “political revolution” a prerequisite for the sweeping changes he wants to lead

    If you want revolution look to Moral Mondays, and then look at who they overwhelmingly voted for. Clinton won the state by 15 with 82% of the black vote.

  102. 102
    Davebo says:

    @Betty Cracker: It’s become a firm belief that NAFTA is the primary cause of the loss of manufacturing jobs over the past 20 years but it’s just not true.

    The surge of Mexican exports in the 1990s was propelled by a sharp devaluation of the peso and NAFTA has absolutely nothing to do with China joining the World Trade Organization in 2001 and becoming a manufacturing powerhouse.

  103. 103
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @Mike J:

    Those votes distorted Sanders’ reality.

  104. 104
    Miss Bianca says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    “Hard to fight black and white passion with grey reasoning.”

    Yeah, this. My problem is that I want to fight black and white passion with fifty shades of GREY! REASONED! PASSION! ??

    And now that sounds like a Pr0n site for senior citizens…

  105. 105
    Betty Cracker says:

    @negative 1: In that case, they don’t sound reachable, to be honest. If I’m understanding you correctly, they’re unhappy with whomever the Obama administration put in charge of their sector but don’t hold that against Obama. However, they do blame Clinton for a policy her husband signed 25 years ago despite her having a trade policy that is more pro-worker than Obama’s. If that’s the case, it doesn’t sound like a reason-based antipathy.

  106. 106
    bemused senior says:

    Don’t know if this is helpful, but here is a detailed comparison of Bernie and HRC’s senate voting records during the time they were there. As summarized above, 93% identical.

  107. 107
    J R in WV says:

    @negative 1:

    I’m all ears, and you’re probably smarter than you are giving yourself credit for.

    No, I am fully aware of how smart I am, thanks anyway. I am not part of Hillary Clinton’s campaign team at any level; I am not authorized or qualified to tell you what President Clinton’s policies will be. I AM confident that she will make better decisions than Senator Sanders would make, and I am certain that she will make better decisions than any of the potential Republican candidates might make.

    But I’m not going to tell you what Clinton will do in case of any given problem – I don’t know, no one knows. She and her staff have prepared her thoughts and intentions for a wide variety of issues, and published those on her web site. Somehow you appear to be unable to read those English articles, which I can’t help you with.

    I am a person with a BS in Computer Science. I have completed a successful career in software development in complex technical fields, as opposed to sales or finance. Systems analysis, project management, I have written successful grant applications for federal funding and position papers on software development. But I am not part of anyone’s political team, which seems to be what you are wishing for. Chase that Unicorn all you want, I can’t help you.

    You might think about changing your ‘nym, which appears to provide others with a pessimistic view of your positions on life and everything. Negative 1, really? And you want help selling Hillary Clinton to unions? Really?

    You appeared out of nowhere this morning, and want help? You are a troll, and I feel embarrassed having spent this much time on you.

  108. 108
    Betty Cracker says:

    @J R in WV: Pretty sure I’ve seen that commenter around here for years. FWIW, I don’t think he or she is a troll, not that the lack of trollhood obligates you to respond. Just sayin.’

  109. 109
    Mnemosyne says:

    @negative 1:

    Just out of curiosity, do you think there’s any room for bargaining for the endorsement this time around? I know it’s not necessarily the argument from strength that you’re hoping for, but being able to say, “We want X or Y overseeing our industry in exchange for our endorsement” is how the game is played.

  110. 110
    Mnemosyne says:

    @negative 1:

    Or, to put it another way, can you identify a specific carrot that your folks would love to get rather than trying to counter the negative images of the things they *don’t* want?

  111. 111
    WaterGirl says:

    @Mnemosyne: I saw a study a few years ago that showed it is much more effective to speak in terms of what people have to lose if they do x as opposed to what they have to gain if they do X or Y. I wonder if there’s an application for that in this discussion.

  112. 112
    negative 1 says:

    @WaterGirl: Demographically speaking younger people respond better to positive change-based messaging, older people to fear-based or avoid-the-negative messaging (from all of our outreach research).

    @Mnemosyne: Not really on any kind of meaningful level, unfortunately. However what they do care about is the anti-offshoring that labor typically does and the free college/end of college debt argument. The problem is that almost everyone I’ve talked to thinks Bernie is way better on these two issues.

    @Betty Cracker: They’ll vote for her because the other side will be a horror show. The thing is that even one of their concerns (onshoring jobs, free college/get out of college debt) addressable would be enough to start actually soliciting donations and could be used to spread downticket. Also, you may be right but I don’t have the luxury of just shrugging and saying ‘eh, some people’.

    @J R in WV: Betty’s right, been here for years, but even if I haven’t do you require a CV for anyone that asks for help? That strikes me as a bad way to campaign at the least. But wow, systems analysis, eh?

  113. 113
    Betty Cracker says:

    @negative 1:

    The thing is that even one of their concerns (onshoring jobs, free college/get out of college debt) addressable would be enough to start actually soliciting donations and could be used to spread downticket.

    You do realize Clinton addresses those very points, right? (I made that assumption as it’s in all her campaign lit and is a topic when she speaks and during debates, etc.)

  114. 114
    negative 1 says:

    @Betty Cracker: Sort of? The onshoring jobs I particularly (and am being honest here) haven’t really heard her address. The only thing I’ve heard her say about free trade is that we need better free trade agreements then the ones we’ve signed, which is essentially a tautology. The thing is that I’ve never heard her define what she considers ‘better’ in this context. She has not, to my knowledge (and she’s not the only one) talked about how to get any manufacturing back into this country. This is why I don’t presume to know it all but her website has are the normal platitudes, not a plan. I haven’t heard her specifically expound on a plan although I’d be surprised if she hasn’t.

    The college thing specifically is problematic. It matters a LOT to young people and our people. The degree our folks get is basically a trade degree and in many cases they’re forced to turn around and get a master’s, and the amount they have to spend almost makes it a money-loser for them. When you read ‘states have to pay their fair share’ it’s easy to get very cynical very quickly, because states won’t raise their higher-ed spending by one cent. Also, refinancing is wonderful and all but if you have six-figure student loan debt it’s kind of like the proverbial umbrella in a hurricane. They hold out hope for forgiveness on some level. My own personal feeling is that when you hear ‘there’s no such thing as free’ it’s kind of BS — there is if your parents are rich. I know plenty of people that graduated debt free, I sure as hell wasn’t one of them. But lectures about responsibility roll off my back — I know a lot of kids that got a free education; their parents paid and they’re not going to pay down $100K over the next 30 years. Doesn’t mean that I feel they deserve it more, though.

    My edit is that she seems to be better speaking publicly about policy than she is about publishing this stuff anywhere — her campaign lit is about the same as Bernie’s with goals not plans, which is ironic since she has on the campaign trail expounded fairly detailed policies on gun control and minimum wage, among others. Hence the interwebs aren’t always the best to go with.

  115. 115
    Betty Cracker says:

    @negative 1: Here’s the Twitter feed for the Clinton campaign’s labor outreach point person.

  116. 116
    glory b says:

    @negative 1: Okay, here’s one:

    Bank size isn’t important. Example: Canada has at least two banks as large as Goldman Sachs. Their economy is approximately on tenth of ours, so comparatively, those banks are ENORMOUS. The didn’t tank because they are more highly regulated and the capitalization requirements are more stringent.

    It’s not the size, it’s capitalization and regulation. The biggest offenders that started our economy’s crash were Lehman Brothers and small banks like Countrywide. They wouldn’t be affected at all by the “big banks=scary” theory.

    Also, the next leg kicked out was AIG, which is an insurance company. It insured these transactions and wasn’t able to cover the losses. Insurance companies don’t even come into the “big banks” issue.

    “Breaking up the big banks” sounds good and feels good, but turning one big bank into 10 small banks doesn’t help if they all make 1/10th of the same shitty mistake.

  117. 117
    Jane says:

    To those of you whose dogs have seizures: Make sure his food and treats contain NO rosemary. For some reason, that herb can trigger seizures.

    A lot of foods and treats do contain rosemary. I guess the dogs like its taste.

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