Who Lost Last Night’s Debate?

I’m borrowing this image from Wonkette to set the tone for today’s inevitable Hilldo vs Bernbro skirmishes:

hillary2016_wonkette

Some folks around here have been fretting about the increasingly acrimonious tone of the Democratic primary campaign for weeks. Not me. I think the drawn-out tussle in 2008 ultimately strengthened then-candidate Obama and kept everyone focused on the race, giving voters more of a stake in the outcome (and thus a reason to turn up at the polls).

But now I’m officially joining the worrywarts. Last night’s debate was nasty, sarcastic and personal. I think Sanders realizes New York is his last stand, and I don’t blame him for trying to win. But if he loses, a grownup needs to pull him aside and tell him to dial it back before he damages our chances in the fall.

Debbie Wasserman Schultz certainly can’t be that grownup. Maybe it’ll fall to our designated national adult, President Obama. But someone damn sure better do it. The Democrats lost the debate last night.

I’m not saying Sanders should drop out if Clinton clobbers him in New York as polls indicate she will. But both candidates need to stop trading accusations of corruption and cluelessness right about now.

Clinton made noises about the need to unite the party last night, and she’s right, though of course it comes across as self-serving since she’s firmly in the lead. But it is time to come together.

One thing we’ve talked about during this campaign is the division among Democratic voters. Clinton appeals to folks who wish Obama could run again, and Sanders is the candidate for voters who think things are fucked up and bullshit.

Remember that voters’ guide decision tree illustration someone posted that asked, “Is shit broken?” The assumption was that people who answered “no” would be in the Clinton or Kasich camp and those who answered “yes” would choose between Sanders, Trump or Cruz, depending on whom they blame.

Well, shit is broken. It’s no knock on President Obama to admit that — he’s made real progress despite the wholesale obstruction of a horde of treasonous Orcs. But shit is still broken, and maybe if the Democrats can come together around fixing that for the remainder of this primary, we won’t blow this chance to hang on to the White House.

What that would look like from Sanders would be exhorting his most passionate followers to make a political revolution happen by voting for Bernie in their primaries, yes, but also making a commitment to throw the Orcs out of Congress and statehouses and that a Democrat gets to make the next SCOTUS picks.

From Clinton, it might look like acknowledging that while the Democrats are the only party that gives a shit about working people, women and minorities, the party has very often done a crappy job of that and will recommit itself to that effort going forward — from top to bottom.

This isn’t too far off their messaging now, so it needn’t be some obvious pivot. But the time for trading insults is over, and if the campaigns can’t figure that out for themselves, someone needs to clue them in.






360 replies
  1. 1

    Who Lost Last Night’s Debate?

    The people who watched it.

  2. 2
    Hillary Rettig says:

    So sorry Betty! I bigfooted you with eight big octopus feet!

  3. 3
  4. 4
  5. 5
    gf120581 says:

    I imagine if he loses NY and still keeps this up, the hammer will drop on Sanders. I get the feeling the WH is getting tired of this and wants this race wrapped up soon.

    But for perspective, remember that last night is nothing compared to what’s going on on the GOP side.

  6. 6
    Hillary Rettig says:

    I have found the primary personally stressful but agree that a cantankerous primary is generally good. I remember from my history reading – Team of Rivals, etc. – that when the electorate is engaged, which is basically what this is, we get a better result. also, a lot of this is because we have a real, goshdarn leftist candidate running, and for me, that’s just wonderful.

  7. 7
    Big Ol Hound says:

    At this point debates are like facebook posts. No body is changing their mind so why bother.

  8. 8
    geg6 says:

    @gf120581:

    I imagine if he loses NY and still keeps this up, the hammer will drop on Sanders. I get the feeling the WH is getting tired of this and wants this race wrapped up soon.

    I agree but think your timing is off. I think after the PA primary, where Bernie will also get whalloped, will be when the WH decides enough is enough. I reached that point several weeks ago, but PBO is a much more patient person that I am.

  9. 9
    Mayur says:

    I gotta say I didn’t think it was all that acrimonious. It wasn’t a very good debate, though.

    What I can say is that sanders’ absurd refusal to talk about ANY specifics in policy clinched my primary vote. Way to go Bernie.

  10. 10
    Linnaeus says:

    I’m glad I watched sports last night instead of the debate. I hadn’t intended to watch it anyway, since I’ve made my decision and I think there wasn’t much more that I could learn about the candidates at this point. But hearing that it had gotten nastier than they’ve been up to now just confirmed the wisdom of my decision.

  11. 11
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Maybe it’ll fall to our designated national adult, President Obama. But someone damn sure better do it.

    I think Sanders holds Obama in barely concealed contempt, not as much as his surrogates, rally speakers and most of his internet supporters, maybe, but enough. Maybe Warren can get through to him, or Brown, or someone we don’t see on TeeVee, but I’m skeptical anyone can get through the bubble he’s made with Devine, Weaver and his own massive ego.

    @gf120581: I get the feeling the WH is getting tired of this and wants this race wrapped up soon.

    that was the leak/rumor a couple of weeks ago, but anything Obama does to put a thumb on the scale will send the Bernistas up to their preferred roost of the cross in their self-aggrandizing imaginations.

  12. 12
    MomSense says:

    How does a cantankerous primary help the party that holds the executive branch keep the executive branch? I can see it in a primary when you are the opposition party especially if that primary process is focused on voter registration and all the candidates are first and foremost running against the current office holder.

  13. 13
    geg6 says:

    @Big Ol Hound:

    I still don’t understand what the left-most left was screaming about, wanting more debates. The more they debate, the more I want to punch Sanders in his mansplaining, finger wagging, condescending face.

  14. 14
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Hillary Rettig: also, a lot of this is because we have a real, goshdarn leftist candidate running, and for me, that’s just wonderful.

    Yes, I haven’t felt so tingly and giddy about an election since 2000!

  15. 15
    Joel says:

    I’m just annoyed that the Red Sox never play on Thursday.

  16. 16
    kindness says:

    I didn’t watch it. I know who I support and don’t like the bickering.

    I do appreciate the Cliff Notes though. Glad someone else is willing to take one for the team.

    Go Democrats!

  17. 17
    cleek says:

    i’m not sure Obama has any influence over Sanders staying in or not.

    and i suspect that if Obama were to say anything, Sanders would react petulantly with a lot of negative blabber about Obama and how Clinton wants to continue Obama’s policies, etc.. in the end, he’d just provide the GOP with B-roll for ads.

  18. 18
    MattF says:

    I didn’t watch the debate– political debates always remind me of college-cafeteria level ideology and cliqueishness. “Trotskyites– over there, by the window, Spartacists– over there, by the kitchen door– bourgeois apologists for the status quo, over there, by the garbage bin.”

  19. 19
    geg6 says:

    @cleek:

    Sanders would react by saying bad things about Obama and how Clinton wants to continue Obama’s policies, etc.. in the end, he’d just provide the GOP with B-roll for ads.

    He’s already doing that, so where is the downside at this point?

  20. 20
    cleek says:

    @geg6:
    well, there would be even more of it.
    less is better.

  21. 21
    Unabogie says:

    @Hillary Rettig: I’m one of those rare breeds: vegans for Hillary. I started out truly on the fence, but my biggest concern with running Bernie was that we’d see a redux of the Ralph Nader candidacy, where the point would be driven home that “both parties are the same”. I keep seeing Bernfeelers call Hillary a “right wing Republican” and saying how a vote for Hillary is no different than a vote for Trump or Cruz. Perhaps it’s even preferable, since then the people can rise up (looking at you, Susan Sarandon).

    I like that Bernie pushed the debate to the left, but I’m really not jazzed about how he’s doing it.

  22. 22
    SarahT says:

    Think we can all agree: @Baud won.

  23. 23
    Unabogie says:

    @geg6: Because the more people see Bernie, the more they like him!!!!

    /s

  24. 24
    gwangung says:

    @Mayur:

    What I can say is that sanders’ absurd refusal to talk about ANY specifics in policy clinched my primary vote. Way to go Bernie.

    Yes. He has the right issues, but he’s the wrong man for the job.

  25. 25
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @SarahT:

    Think we can all agree: @Baud2016! won.

    QFT.

  26. 26
    StellaB says:

    @gwangung: This exactly.

  27. 27
    randy khan says:

    In my ideal universe, all of the Dem debates would focus totally on important policy issues, but that doesn’t, in my mind, make this one bad for the Dems.

    First, this debate was still light years better than nearly anything the Republicans have shown the world in this cycle.

    Second, it really was standard-issue stuff on the whole, and there were enough policy nuggets to remind people which side is on their side. I actually think it was pretty clever of HRC to bring up the abortion rights point, for instance, and that may well be the sound bite that lives past the debate.

  28. 28
    Lynn Dee says:

    Bernie’s sarcasm struck me as more stupid than damaging to Hillary. That whole “Ooh, you called out the banks. That must’ve crushed them. Was that before or after you accepted their money?” was just childish.

  29. 29
    Lynn Dee says:

    @Unabogie:

    Dave Weigel tweeted an interesting observation, something to the effect that Dems liked the idea of having Bernie in the race to push Hillary to the left, but every time she moves left, Bernie portrays it as a scam.

  30. 30
    Bobby Thomson says:

    Betty, a pox on your both sides do itism. There’s exactly one candidate running against the incumbent president. There’s exactly one candidate whose campaign excoriates the “lie” that ACA is working. There’s exactly one candidate using NRA attack lines against his opponent. There’s exactly one candidate calling swaths of Democrats “distorted.”

    He needs to stay in Rome as far as I’m concerned.

  31. 31
    Davebo says:

    @geg6: God you are right about that.

    Is it just that Sanders can’t speak without poking his finger in the air? And does no one on his campaign have the courage to tell him to knock it off?

  32. 32
    dr. bloor says:

    I’m not so worried. If HRC carries NY by anything like the margin the polls currently suggest, or even if it drags out to the 26th, the Sanders campaign’s efforts to convince others of their viability are going to sound even nuttier than they already are. At that point, HRC turns her attention to the Republicans and basically ignores him. No more debates, no more mentioning her primary opponent, etc. It will piss off the True Believers, but they were never coming on board anyways.

  33. 33
    JBF says:

    One of the biggest problems with the Dem debates is that both of the candidates public policy stands are very similar so there really is nothing to debate. What is left are the more personal and professional issues which is why things have become the way they are.

  34. 34
    MazeDancer says:

    Paul Krugman in his column and Howard Fineman, last night, on Tweety’s post-debate gab fest both suggested the same thing: Bernie is misleading his supporters about the chances of his winning the nomination to keep the contributions flowing.

    Fineman said Bernie endorsing the Palestinians indicated Bernie knew he was losing NY. Because NY is not a place to suggest anything even slightly anti-Israel and still hope to capture the majority of Democrats.

    Krugman’s indication of Bernie’s in it for the money now is the ridiculous (and as many have noted, offensive and racist) write off of the South as less-than voters. Because that ain’t no way to convince Super Delgates to come to your side. And Super-Delegates are the only way Bernie can get the nom.

  35. 35
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @MazeDancer: I despise the man but even I don’t think he’s in it for the money, and I don’t think he’s a racist. Both those issues are signs of just how off the rails his narcissism has become. I think he still thinks he can win the nomination with Superdelegates, who are only corrupt if they vote for Hillary

    I think it would be fine if he stayed in to advocate for campaign finance reform and postal banking, and his I/P stance is the one issue that could’ve made me feel the Bern in a different political reality. Instead, he’s doubling down on The Speeches. Cause he’s an asshole.

  36. 36
    Immanentize says:

    Re: debates these days. i was reading the debate online, but tuned in for a bit…. I really think that the audience participation aspect of these “debates” is really setting tone and killing decorum. Bernie, much more than Hillary, was playing for the big audience reaction. But she did it too. There was the point where Bernie basically admitted Hillary was qualified to be president (but didn’t use the word qualified) which led to a big positive crowd reaction. Then he gave the big “BUT” about his view that she lacked judgment and there was crowd whooping and wooting. Sheesh. How can anyone not hurl insults and go for cleverish one-liners in such an environment? It was all so Republican/WWF — and as someone so correctly said here, “Trump will pull everyone into the gutter where he is king.” This was exhibit A of that.

  37. 37
    Josie says:

    @dr. bloor: I agree. In fact, I don’t think she should agree to any more debates, given the snide tone he used last night. It is not good press for the Democrats and it gives him more chances to hand the Republicans good sound bites for their ads.

  38. 38
    Linnaeus says:

    @MazeDancer:

    Krugman also writes that, “I’m not saying Sanders should drop out”. Which undermines his point that Sanders can’t win and should stop campaigning as if he can.

  39. 39
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Bobby Thomson: I’d say “a pox on your reading comprehension skills,” but I can’t even locate them in order to curse them. Oh well.

    @dr. bloor: You may be right.

  40. 40
    Unabogie says:

    @Lynn Dee: Not just a scam but #WhichHillary. Meaning that decades of activism to “move politicians to the left” was never intended to actually move them?

    It’s a bizarre attack. Take yes for an answer, Bernfeelers!

  41. 41
    NotMax says:

    Hillary is left-handed?

    Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

    Other than that, the illustration is unsettling and disturbing.

  42. 42
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Unabogie: It’s a bizarre attack. Take yes for an answer, Bernfeelers!

    Heh, well put

  43. 43
    burnspbesq says:

    For a couple of weeks, i was in favor of the mind-fuck approach: let Sanders win all the remaining primaries 51-49, and watch the fun the morning after California when his supporters realize that Clinton just clinched the nomination.

    Now, I’m annoyed. Let him be crushed expeditiously. He has proven himself unworthy to be the candidate of our party, and let’s stop pretending otherwise.

  44. 44
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @NotMax: Other than that, the illustration is unsettling and disturbing.

    Obviously, holier-than-though purity-bot burn-it-all-down Bernista that is Betty Cracker is calling for Hillary to be burnt (Or should I say “bernt!”) at the stake!

    I AM NOT AMUSED!

  45. 45
    Angry Bingo says:

    Clinton appeals to folks who wish Obama could run again, and Sanders is the candidate for voters who think things are fucked up and bullshit.

    I dunno. I think that Clinton will overturn the Obama foreign policy in crucial ways. I’d love to vote for Obama again, but I can’t, so I prefer Bernie to Clinton. If not for the hawkish-ness, I could swallow the centrist economic policy, but I don’t think that foreign policy seriousness is defined by sending other people’s kids to kill other people’s kids.

  46. 46
    WarMunchkin says:

    I don’t think Obama is losing patience with this at all. People forget, Obama was once part of team screaming lefty at some point in his life, and Hillary might have been as well, and I think they both retain enough empathy to realize that there’s some value in recognizing both the shortfalls of the Obama Administration’s work and the genuine desire of Bernie’s supporters to right some wrongs. Obama’s never been the guy who toots his own horn all the way to the finish line.

  47. 47
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Betty Cracker: yeah, I guess I imagined you saying that both campaigns need to stop trading accusations. Oh wait.

  48. 48
    smith says:

    Speaking of the adult in the room, I looked at this story for some morning cute kid at the WH buzz, and learned that in the seders the Obamas have held there it’s become a tradition for PBO to read the Emancipation Proclamation. What a cool idea.

  49. 49
    japa21 says:

    @Hillary Rettig: Plus Sanders is also running.

  50. 50
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Angry Bingo: other than AUMF, Sanders has voted for every military intervention in the last 20 years.

  51. 51
    starscream says:

    I too started off totally indifferent, but now I’m convinced that Sanders with his hypocritical purity tests couldn’t put together a functioning executive branch, let alone a governing coalition.

  52. 52
    chopper says:

    But now I’m officially joining the worrywarts.

    i worry at times, but i tend to remind myself of this – if the dems were all united as hell from the get-go the GOP would have seen that and gotten in line a lot earlier. the fact that the democrats are having a squabble (that’s pretty tame in comparison to their mishigas) gives them reason to keep fighting each other.

    right now it’s looking like they’re doing way more damage to their party and infrastructure then we are to ourselves which is a win.

  53. 53
    Barbara says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think he is adding unforced errors to possibly strategic errors in the way Clinton did in 2008, making statements that had racial overtones that she clearly did not intend, mostly because she was exhausted and spent. So I am willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, but I do think doubling down on speeches and whatnot is intentional and obnoxious. His opponent has already been accused of everything under the sun, beginning with arranging the hit of one of her dearest friends from Arkansas, Vince Foster, after he committed suicide. As the Benghazi Hearing made clear, there isn’t much that is going to rattle her and she must have the thickest skin of any politician ever born who is not actually a sociopath.

  54. 54
    chopper says:

    Debbie Wasserman Schultz certainly can’t be that grownup. Maybe it’ll fall to our designated national adult, President Obama.

    it’ll be warren, who has been staying out of it for this reason. she’s the one who is best suited to try to mend any fences between the two camps.

  55. 55
    Calouste says:

    @Angry Bingo: So foreign policy seriousness is defined by not actually having a clue?

  56. 56
    Lynn Dee says:

    @geg6:

    I’ve about had it with his faux-aghast pop-eyed look too. I keep telling myself I might find that charming if I were a supporter, but honestly it just seems like so much mugging for the camera to me.

  57. 57
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Bobby Thomson: I guess you missed the part where I said, “But if he [Sanders] loses, a grownup needs to pull him aside and tell him to dial it back before he damages our chances in the fall.” And yeah, both candidates are trading accusations — it was on TV and everything — and putting an end to the rancor means both need to stop. Or did you imagine I was suggesting a grownup pull Bernie aside and tell him to cool it while Clinton continues to chide Sanders for his disastrous NYDN interview, etc.? If so, your problem goes a good bit deeper than reading comprehension.

  58. 58

    @JBF: There is an adage attributed to, among others, Henry Kissinger(!) to the effect that the reason academic disputes are frequently so bitter is that the stakes are so small.

  59. 59
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Lynn Dee: the first time he trotted out that line about “I’ll release the trasnscipts of all my Wall St speeches… there! I just did”. I chuckled. Now he’s dragging it out like a hack comic desperate to remind people about that one time he brought the house down on the Sullivan show.

    ETA: @Rand Careaga: Oh, and if I hear about fucking Kissinger one more time…

  60. 60
    Loviatar says:

    @Bobby Thomson:

    Betty, a pox on your both sides do itism.

    Betty is an Obot and a Clinton hater from back in the day, so this is her way of obliquely slamming Hillary.

    Additionally, repeated from previous threads; Bernie Sanders has been a Democrat for less than a year (April 30, 2015). He has no history of loyalty to the Democratic party. Why are we expecting him to show loyalty now?

  61. 61
    Chyron HR says:

    @Linnaeus:

    Krugman also writes that, “I’m not saying Sanders should drop out”. Which undermines his point that Sanders can’t win and should stop campaigning as if he can.

    Sanders getting the nomination by energizing a mob of angry supporters against the Democratic party leadership (embodied by Hillary Clinton) requires a completely different posture than getting the nomination by convincing the Democratic party leadership that he’s the best man for the job. Bernie’s only path to victory is the latter, but he’s campaigning like he can still manage the former. That’s not a contradiction.

  62. 62
    Brachiator says:

    But if he loses, a grownup needs to pull him aside and tell him to dial it back before he damages our chances in the fall.

    Let Bernie and Hillary contest this thing as vigorously as they want. There is no reason to worry about what will happen in the fall. It’s not as though the GOP is stupid and unable to …. wait. They may be stupid, but still. The November election will take on its own shape.

    I like the graphic of Hillary, but we need something more out of Game of Thrones. House Rodham vs House Sanders. The Sigil of House Sanders is the Pointy Finger Shouty Man.

  63. 63
    feckless says:

    @geg6: And your an anti-Semite. See how easy it is to throw ad hominem accusations of bigotry?

    Why would I vote for a person who is friends with Cuomo, Kissenger and think that the lesson of the 90’s is to lie about your opponents before they lie about you?

    Or should I accept the abuse and clap louder?

  64. 64
    Germy Shoemangler says:

    DAILY CARTOON: FRIDAY, APRIL 15TH
    BY DAVID SIPRESS

    “I felt Sanders yelled better on big banks and political corruption but Clinton yelled better on Israel and the minimum wage.”

  65. 65
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Loviatar: FFS, I voted for Clinton a few weeks ago, and although it’s true she did piss me off at times during the 2008 primary, I never hated her and was fully prepared to vote for her if she prevailed over Obama. And I endorsed her right on this here blog before casting my vote for her in the FL primary. In summary: you are full of shit.

  66. 66
    Lynn Dee says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Ha. “Hack comic.” That’s good. Now I’m ready for him to follow up his faux aghast pop-eyed look with “Slowly I turn…”

  67. 67
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Betty Cracker: how is that not both sides doitism? One candidate’s rhetoric is uniquely damaging, putting to one side that the race is over. It’s a false equivalence. I see no reason for her to tone it down because she hasn’t crossed the line. He clearly has, repeatedly, it’s only getting worse, and there’s no sign he can be talked off the ledge.

  68. 68
    Unabogie says:

    @feckless: You’re.

  69. 69
    tegdirb says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think Devine will have to be the one to break the bubble. And he will, as he has a future that extends beyond this campaign. (God knows why. I guess he’s better with smaller elections.)

  70. 70
    Davebo says:

    @Loviatar:

    Betty is an “Obot”?

    Childish and ludicrous all in one package!

  71. 71
    Brachiator says:

    @Angry Bingo:

    I dunno. I think that Clinton will overturn the Obama foreign policy in crucial ways. I’d love to vote for Obama again, but I can’t, so I prefer Bernie to Clinton. If not for the hawkish-ness, I could swallow the centrist economic policy, but I don’t think that foreign policy seriousness is defined by sending other people’s kids to kill other people’s kids.

    When did Clinton ever do this?

  72. 72
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Loviatar: I’m also an Obot and Clinton hater from back in the day. Which is why I have a special distaste for Sanders recycling the 2008 Clinton greatest hits. She needed to STFU then and he does now.

  73. 73
    Tripod says:

    At this point they are bad infomercials. They’re not helping sell either candidate, or the brand, and need to stop.

  74. 74
    JMG says:

    People, try to lighten up. These are two veteran pols in a reasonably close contest for what their last chance ever to be President. Of course some furniture is going to get broken. Of course some of their more overheated supporters are going to make fools of themselves. To project what the loser (almost surely Sanders) will do when the game’s over off how he and she are behaving now is unfair. Because everyone here is so into politics, I think we forget how much the average voter discounts political combat as “just politics.”

  75. 75
    Hal says:

    I love humor blogs, especially of the tumblr variety, but they have all lately been pretty much pro Bernie. That in and of itself I don’t mind, but the fact that I have to scroll through endless “Hitlery sucks!” posts in between something I might find funny is getting tiresome. Based on what I’ve seen since yesterday on some of these blogs, Bernie kicked Hillary’s butt and she was terrible. These are the same blogs that continuously push the narrative that Clinton is only winning because of super delegates, or my favorite slight of hand as of late that says something like Sanders has won the past 7 of 9 primaries/caucuses without talking about the total number of pledged delegates that translates to for each candidate.

  76. 76
    Barbara says:

    @Rand Careaga: I think he is totally wrong. The reason why academic and religious disputes, among others, are bitter is because it is impossible in most disciplines to determine who is actually right and deserves to win, not because nothing is at stake. This is true even in the sciences, until evidence catches up with hypotheses. In essence, the only possible weapon is an increasing level of passion for your own position, which is often expressed as contempt for the other side.

  77. 77
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Sam Stein ‏@ samsteinhp 50m50 minutes ago
    National Republicans highlighting Bernie’s comment last night that he’d have Obama withdraw Garland if he won

    Maybe now people will start paying attention to this idiocy from St Bernard.

  78. 78
    Partisancheese says:

    Funny how no one is asking Cruz to drop out of the race even though he is way behind in delegates. I imagine if it was Clinton who was trailing, you guys would be defending her right to contest the nomination at the delegation. Also, the tone it down shit is hilarious. She is the one who takes wall street money, corporate donations, why shouldn’t she be rightly criticised over that? If Sanders minor barbs are too mean, she will be walloped by Trump though who will be merciless. If Sanders has you guys in such a ruffle, then Hillary is in trouble. Poor precious Clinton, can’t take a little heat for being the establishment front for the oligarch! Be nice to her! But she is also tough though!

  79. 79
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @Calouste:

    LOL. Scolding. That’s his whole plan.

  80. 80
    Partisancheese says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yeah, can’t disagree with saint Obama and his centrist nomination for the Supreme Court. Otherwise you must be a republican or an idiot! Everyone knows Obama’s picks are always perfect!

  81. 81
    feebog says:

    This is going to be over on April 26. We can all take that vacation to Disney World at that point.

  82. 82
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Jennifer Epstein ‏@ jeneps 5h5 hours ago
    New Sanders ad on paid speeches: “$200,000 an hour for them, but not even 15 bucks an hour for all Americans.”

    Fight the real enemy, Bernie. Keep it real. Man.

    ETA: Oy. Another one.

  83. 83
    Betty Cracker says:

    @JMG: You could be right, and until a week or so ago, I might have written a very similar “lighten up” comment myself. But here’s why I think dragging the primary out with the current nasty tone could be damaging: In 2008, we had a hotly contested primary, but both sets of supporters wanted the same thing — Bush gone and the damage he’d caused addressed. It was a change election. Obama and Clinton had very similar platforms; the fight was over which candidate was best suited to implement that change.

    This time, it seems to me the voters have two very different outlooks. For the people who want an Obama third term, this isn’t a change election; it’s a preserve and expand the progress election. For the Sanders supporters, it IS a change election. And yet we need both sets to unite behind a single candidate, which will be Clinton, IMO. So I see a danger now that wasn’t present in 2008. Maybe I’m totally off base, but that’s why the newly nasty turn bothers me.

  84. 84
    Tom Q says:

    I’ve been saying this for months, but it seems to slip by most, so I’ll repeat:

    There’s a big difference between a heated intra-party contest for the party that doesn’t hold the White House (as we Dems had in 2008) and for the party that does (which is what we have now). Lichtman’s Keys system says the former has no effect on an election outcome but the latter does, because election outcomes are primarily referenda on the state of the incumbent party. In fact, by Lichtman’s reckoning, a drawn-out intra-party squabble for the incumbent White House party is not only a negative factor, it’s historically been a decisively negative one — as in 1912, 1952, 1968, 1976. Anyone who says this race continuing helps the Dems is blowing smoke — there’s simply no historical precedent for that.

    I also join whoever it was above who questioned Betty’s idea that Hillary should campaign on “Obama’s done fine but things suck right now” — if people think things suck right now, they’re going to vote for the out-party, not a replacement in the in-party. (You can ask William Jennings Bryan about that: he ran as explicitly opposed to the policies of fellow Dem Grover Cleveland, but got defeated by Cleveland’s unpopularity anyway.) The fact that Obama, with his current numbers, would be re-elected is the greatest strength the Dems have this year, and Hillary campaigning for implicitly his third term is the way to success. (Everybody jumped on Gore for stupidly not running that way in 2000, but now they’re saying Hillary should do the same.)

    In sum: this primary may have already blown the gift we had, of a united party around a consensus candidate…and it’s going to piss that advantage away irreparably if it continues acrimoniously beyond a week from Tuesday. Hillary dominating in the 19th/26th primaries, and Bernie and his gang quitting the trashing, is very important to giving the party its best chance, no matter who the GOP puts up.

  85. 85

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: He is deluded and has drunk his own kool-aid. Bernie has become a Bernie-bro, its like self induction.

  86. 86
    Tripod says:

    @Chyron HR:

    The campaign has never presented a positive vision for the party or the nation. Just an endless regurgitation of grievances. It’s fucking tiresome. The Sanders brain trust isn’t working to any tactical, or strategic goal, either with-in the context of the campaign, or beyond it. They are just thrashing around at the dying of the light.

  87. 87

    @Partisancheese: He is the President, he gets to pick a Supreme Court nominee, Bernie is agreeing with the Republicans here.

  88. 88
    eric says:

    @Partisancheese: let me break it down as to I, and perhaps other people, have grown to not not like Sanders’ approach NOW, as opposed to back when. I do not like being told i am morally deficient in the choices I make in the reality of the world in which we live. This is what I hear from bernie and especially from his supporters. For example, the speeches: they exist in the campaign world in which we live, as distasteful as they may be. Choices about less than optimal compromises are not evidence of a lack of moral adherence, but, often, though admittedly not always, serve as a means to a greater end. Compromise is particularly true in government, and is perhaps Obama’s greatest asset as a “grown-up” leader.

    Living in a world of diverse ideologies requires flexibility. Wisdom is knowing when to bend and when you have to fight to the breaking point. As a general matter, Bernie has existed in congress without worrying about this distinction. You can argue that Clinton overthinks it, and thus, “over-compromises.”

    There are implications of moral failings coming from the Bernie crowd, that go beyond disagreement over policy choices. That is what rankles this devout liberal, and, I suspect, others in this crowd.

    Ideology is spiritual imperialism.

  89. 89
    Cacti says:

    @Partisancheese:

    If Sanders has you guys in such a ruffle, then Hillary is in trouble. Poor precious Clinton, can’t take a little heat for being the establishment front for the oligarch! Be nice to her! But she is also tough though!

    As opposed to the constant Bernfeeler refrain of “Be nice to me while I call you names or I’m taking my ball and going home!”

  90. 90
    eric says:

    @Partisancheese: What is the evidence that he is a centrist?

  91. 91
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Barbara:

    Actually, I’d always heard that saying was about office disputes, not academic ones. Bitter hatred over whose turn it was to replace the toner cartridge or who gets the corner office after the previous occupant leaves. That sort of thing.

  92. 92
    bmoak says:

    I’d like to see someone ask Bernie that if he doesn’t win the nomination, will he run for his senate re-election as a Democrat or will he remain an independent?

  93. 93
    Chyron HR says:

    @Partisancheese:

    Funny how no one is asking Cruz to drop out of the race even though he is way behind in delegates.

    Wow, it’s almost like we think dragging out the primary HURTS the party, and we want the Republican party to be HURT.

  94. 94
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Betty Cracker: So, hey, hey – I posted this in another thread as soon as I found out but I’m gonna post it here cuz I am JUST THAT EXCITED about it – guess who gets to hear from HRC this morning?? Meeee!! Conference call with the candidate for all her CO state delegates! I don’t know if I’ll get a chance to ask questions, but if I do, I promise I’ll ask her about the issue you’ve raised here.

  95. 95
    Cacti says:

    @Partisancheese:

    Yeah, can’t disagree with saint Obama and his centrist nomination for the Supreme Court. Otherwise you must be a republican or an idiot! Everyone knows Obama’s picks are always perfect!

    Without looking, name the 10 rulings of Judge Garland that you find the most philosophically disagreeable.

    Take your time.

  96. 96
    Divf says:

    The issue here is trust. If Bernie wins, there is a high degree of confidence that Hillary will back him in the general. She did it in 2008. If Hillary wins there are a lot of reasons to be nervous, including the bring on the apocalypse threats from some of his supporters, his disdain for Obama, his lack of history with and commitment to the party. Combine that with the 2000 election experience, plus the catastrophic possibilities offered by the gop, and yes a lot of people would like this to end.

  97. 97
    eric says:

    @Cacti: better yet, name two, that gets us past the Second Amendment ruling.

  98. 98
    JMG says:

    Every public opinion poll indicates the vast majority of Democrats like both their candidates. In every exit poll, even Wisconsin where Bernie won big, showed majorities want the next President to continue Obama’s policies. Do not mistake the Internet and the feverish distortions of cable news for reality.
    PS: One mistake I think Sanders did make is letting Nader 2000 supporters like Robbins and Sarandon speak on his behalf. These are people who have learned nothing and never will, and they justifiably cause some to wonder if Bernie would be happy to wreck the party as his last revolutionary act. I don’t believe that, but why give people cause to wonder?

  99. 99
    Lynn Dee says:

    @Partisancheese:

    It’s not a case of agreeing or disagreeing with Obama’s pick. It’s a case of recognizing that, until Obama’s term is over, it’s Obama’s pick, not the incoming President’s pick.

  100. 100
    starscream says:

    @JMG: This is why I want someone to ask Sanders who he voted for in 2000 (was it Nader?) and 2012 (after he called for a primary challenge to Obama).

  101. 101
    Aaron Morrow says:

    @Tom Q: In 1912, 1952, 1968, and 1976 the party was not united by the convention. It’s April. The state of the primary now doesn’t tell me has no effect on whether or not the party will be united by the convention, let alone Labor Day.

    On the other hand, we’re Democrats. PANIC!

    (I don’t watch these things, but I think it was good for Clinton to get that Israel-Palestine debate on the public record. That’s going to help with the microtargeting/engage-the-base this fall. With me, anyway.)

  102. 102
    Shell says:

    Like a lot of others , I was turned off by the audience at the debate. I don’t know, do they still make an announcement like “Please hold your applause and comments till the end”, not like that would make a difference anymore.
    There was so much hooting and hollering, it felt more like a scene from Animal House.

  103. 103
    glory b says:

    @Brachiator: Khaleesi is coming to Westeros!

  104. 104
    Goblue72 says:

    @burnspbesq: so sayeth the offshore tax shelter lawyer in Orange County.

  105. 105
    NR says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    For the people who want an Obama third term, this isn’t a change election; it’s a preserve and expand the progress election. For the Sanders supporters, it IS a change election. And yet we need both sets to unite behind a single candidate, which will be Clinton, IMO. So I see a danger now that wasn’t present in 2008.

    If you’re right, shutting Bernie up and dragging him off the stage is not going to fix this problem. Nor will the condescending attitude that you and so many other Hillary supporters display for people who have a different opinion from you about the last seven years.

    If you want the votes of people who think Wall Street’s infiltration of our government is a big problem, maybe you shouldn’t run a candidate who’s taken millions of dollars from Wall Street.

  106. 106
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Shell: yeah, why have a live audience if you don’t want audience reactions?

    ETA: Welp… looks like somebody put up the dingbat signal. Here come the emoprogs and the keyboard radicals

  107. 107

    @Barbara: I believe that he (I will not repeat the name out of respect for the sensibilities of Jim Foolish Literalist) was speaking more of academic infighting than of “doctrinal” issues. See also the essay “High Finance, or The Point of Vanishing Interest,” included in C. Northcote Parkinson’s immortal volume Parkinson’s Law.

  108. 108
    Calouste says:

    @NR: You forgot to mention 56!!% unfavorability!1!!1!!!

  109. 109
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Rand Careaga: Heh, I’ve seen that quote attributed to Shaw and Mark Twain, both of whom should have a greater presence in our politics.

  110. 110
    Brachiator says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    This time, it seems to me the voters have two very different outlooks. For the people who want an Obama third term, this isn’t a change election; it’s a preserve and expand the progress election. For the Sanders supporters, it IS a change election. And yet we need both sets to unite behind a single candidate, which will be Clinton, IMO. So I see a danger now that wasn’t present in 2008. Maybe I’m totally off base, but that’s why the newly nasty turn bothers me.

    You make some great points here, but there is nothing to do except let this play out, even with bitterness, because the Bernie supporters see an opportunity for something more than just incremental progress and are insistent on taking advantage of an opportunity that may not come again any time soon.

    I was struck by how similar this might be to something playing out in Canada right now, in critical election losses by the left wing New Democratic Party.

    Polls suggested the party was poised to move from the official opposition to leading the government. Across the Atlantic, Jeremy Corbyn was challenging the establishment as the frontrunner for Labour leadership in Britain. And in the US, tens of thousands were flocking to arenas to hear what socia1ist Bernie Sanders had to say.

    Eight months later, as progressive movements around the world gain steam, a very different reality has unfolded for Canada’s NDP. October’s federal election saw the party drop to third-place status. Earlier this week, delegates at the party convention voted to oust party leader Tom Mulcair, offering a glimpse of the soul-searching roiling under the surface of Canada’s left.

    “We gave up a once in a lifetime opportunity to win government,” said Cheri DiNovo, a member of Ontario’s provincial parliament and the New Democrat who campaigned for a changing of the guard after what she called a “disastrous federal election”.

    As Alexander Hamilton would say, the Berniebots are not going to miss their shot this time. And Sanders and his supporters don’t see that they owe anything to the current Democratic Party, and ironically are using the party much the way that Trump is using the Republicans, as a fulcrum for political revolution.

    And in a way, even if this damages the Democrats’ chances in November, it is exciting to see. Because in the end, the country belongs to citizens who vote, not to any political party.

    By the way, I still think that the Democrats will win in November, no matter how much chaos and dissension are in play right now.

  111. 111
    Hal says:

    How many Bernie or bust people are reliably democratic leaning voters anyway? If we are talking about voters who would not be voting for any other dem candidate but Sanders, HRC isn’t losing any support in the general she ever had any chance of earning in the first place. Those who prefer Sanders, even strongly over Clinton but are reliably dem leaning voters will vote for HRC in the general. I wouldn’t say I’m not worried because in the end, who the hell knows, but I’m not convinced the Sanders has support from people who the Democratic party would ever rely on in any other election. Not that expanding voter outreach and appeal is a bad thing.

  112. 112
    NR says:

    @Calouste: Actually it might be higher now, I haven’t checked it today. It seems to increase daily.

  113. 113
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @Brachiator:

    And in a way, even if this damages the Democrats’ chances in November, it is exciting to see.

    You must be a white guy.

  114. 114
    Chyron HR says:

    @NR:

    And once again, NR comes here for the express purpose of berating people who don’t support Sanders, and acts outraged that he has to interact with people who don’t support Sanders.

  115. 115
    cleek says:

    @Chyron HR:
    there’s a name for people like that

  116. 116
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Hal: good point, our resident Bernie-it-all-down bro said the other day he ‘couldn’t have brought his precious self to vote for Gore’, is how I think he put it, and didn’t vote for Kerry. NR is convinced the last eight years were a failure cause stupid coward Obama thinks legislation has to pass Congress, and he has crippling Daddy Issues. I think he wrote in Batman, the Adam West version.

  117. 117
    James Powell says:

    I don’t think that there is anyone who can talk to Sanders and convince him to do anything other than what he wants to do. If Sanders realizes he can’t win, he is in the same position was when he started.

    I’m thinking he doesn’t care why or how, but only that his ideas are getting a larger audience and more focused attention than they ever have or ever will.

    Usually, the “get my issues out there” candidates are gone after New Hampshire. Sanders has the advantage of running against a candidate who is despised by a large chunk of the press/media and a fair piece of the Democratic electorate. So he is going to get a listen no matter what he is saying. Why would he ever give that up? He may not really care who the next president is.

  118. 118
    glory b says:

    @NR: So, you’re saying no unity then.

  119. 119
    NR says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    NR is convinced the last eight years were a failure cause stupid coward Obama thinks legislation has to pass Congress, and he has crippling Daddy Issues.

    Man, you could do a doctoral dissertation on psychological projection with research from just this website.

  120. 120
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @NR: Interesting that’s the part you responded to. Almost as if I struck a nerve….

  121. 121
  122. 122
    Jade says:

    @gf120581: You obviously forgot that Hillary continued her campaign even when Obama has 100% of the delegates he needed for the nomination? Someone needs to pull Hillary aside and remind her that she did not tone it down one bit in 2008 even after the nomination was lost.

  123. 123
    NR says:

    @glory b: I’m voting for Hillary in November.

    But Hillary might have a lot of trouble convincing a lot of other people to do the same. And all the wailing and gnashing of teeth from places like this about how horrible and evil Bernie Sanders is won’t help matters any.

  124. 124
    Bob In Portland says:

    The Golden State Warriors are now going to finish what they started.

    I sat out the debate and played solitaire while my significant other watched two hours of “Grey’s Anatomy.”

  125. 125
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Hal:

    How many Bernie or bust people are reliably democratic leaning voters anyway? If we are talking about voters who would not be voting for any other dem candidate but Sanders, HRC isn’t losing any support in the general she ever had any chance of earning in the first place.

    That’s a great point, and my guess is the overlap between Bernie or Bust peeps and 2012 Jill Stein voters is high. And I’m not interested in the Bernie or Busters, not even a little bit. I ignore or mock the ones who comment here because fuck them, that’s why. But I do worry about the reliable Dems who support Bernie — or at least I did. Y’all have managed to talk me off the ledge to some extent. Whew!

  126. 126
    NR says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I just find the fact that you’re so eager to put your psychological issues on display in a public forum interesting, in a “look at that horrible car crash” kind of way.

  127. 127
    Jade says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Nope, Obama is loving that Hillary who refused to tone it down and drop out in 2008 is getting a bitter taste of her own medicine. She has no moral authority to tell him anything at any point since she campaigned to the bitter end in 2008.

  128. 128
    Jade says:

    @geg6: We don’t enjoy seeing Hillary waving her tiny little hands in her Oompa Loompa, ill fitted, poorly designed, suits either.

  129. 129
    Jeffro says:

    @Brachiator:

    By the way, I still think that the Democrats will win in November, no matter how much chaos and dissension are in play right now.

    I do too, but it’ll be closer than it needs to be. Trump and Cruz are so loathsome that whichever one emerges with the nom is still going to find it impossible to win more than 200 EVs.

    Anyway, just a quick note on last night’s debate (which I told myself I wasn’t gonna watch, then watched anyway). It’s mid-April. One candidate has a realistic path to the Democratic nomination, one doesn’t. One is a multiple-issue candidate, one isn’t. One has been battle-tested by the Rs to the nth degree, one hasn’t. And while technically either one would make history by being elected President this November…only one of these two will keep President Obama’s policies rolling right along, broaden the Dem coalition even further, AND have a possibility of getting re-elected in 2020.

    So…this weekend, I’m making my first campaign donation of this cycle, and perhaps more importantly, I’m going to quit pretending I’ll be equally happy with either candidate heading into the fall. Just like Betty put it, I want to preserve and expand the progress we’ve made these past eight years, and it’s no time to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

  130. 130
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @glory b:

    Must be nice to know if you have to watch the world burn, you can do it as a first class citizen.

  131. 131
    The Thin Black Duke says:

    @Jade: Lame.

  132. 132
    NR says:

    @Jeffro:

    One has been battle-tested by the Rs to the nth degree, one hasn’t.

    Oh, this argument again. You know that the Republicans have barely even mentioned the Clinton Foundation so far, right?

  133. 133
    The Thin Black Duke says:

    @Jeffro: Well said, sir. Thank you.

  134. 134
    Tripod says:

    All I want is to see you smile
    If it takes just a little while
    I know you don’t believe that it’s true
    I never meant any harm to you

    Don’t stop thinking about tomorrow
    Don’t stop, it’ll soon be here
    It’ll be, better than before,
    Yesterday’s gone, yesterday’s gone…

  135. 135
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    NR and Jade as The Vanguard of The Bernfeelers Revolution. How could that have possibly failed?

  136. 136
    Jade says:

    @gwangung: Yep, Hillary has all the polished specifics, only problem is she is lying through her teeth. She will say anything and do anything to be elected. Once elected back to corporationist, warmongering, big bank loving, superpredator, Hillary.

  137. 137
    Emma says:

    @Brachiator:

    As Alexander Hamilton would say, the Berniebots are not going to miss their shot this time. And Sanders and his supporters don’t see that they owe anything to the current Democratic Party, and ironically are using the party much the way that Trump is using the Republicans, as a fulcrum for political revolution.

    Electing someone president doesn’t even come close to a political revolution. Even moving the idiotic “Overton window” isn’t a revolution. A revolution means changing the political system, which includes the economic system. So how is Sanders going to do that? Because his answer of “I’ll use my mandate” and $5 will get him a latte but not the cooperation of a Republican congress. And he doesn’t seem to have the coat-tails to change the state races.

  138. 138
    Jade says:

    @Lynn Dee: It was brillant and spot on. Hillary is a “for the love of money” candidate.

  139. 139
    Elie says:

    I think we have a problem but don’t know how big yet. Bernie’s personality and basic character is not a good one for this situation. He is a judgmental and self centered person who uses personal attack as his main tool rather than explaining any policy approaches. He will not stop and I don’t think he much cares about the party. He is very self righteous about his views and will continue to press them until its pretty obvious that he has lost, but even then he will never fully concede. It is a shame that he was not of a different character, but there it is. I think we press on with who we have and talking sense to all those who will listen.
    On a side note, I was struck by Bernie’s appearance last night: He was very red in the face and hands. He looked very angry and frustrated. His campaign manager has really done him a disservice and has not helped his client to be better by mastering his poise under pressure. While Hillary did well, she also looked pretty comfortable — a happy warrior. Bernie is not happy and the not happy Bernie is the one we will have to worry about.

  140. 140
    gwangung says:

    @Jade: Citation needed.

  141. 141
    The Thin Black Duke says:

    @gwangung: “Facts? We don’t need no stinkin’ facts!”

  142. 142
    cleek says:

    @Emma:

    And he doesn’t seem to have the coat-tails to change the state races.

    once His victory is complete, the masses will rise up and demand the completion of His vision. and woe unto any legislator who stands in the way of the masses! the forces of reaction and the status quo will be driven out of the halls of power!

    Stand up, damned of the Earth
    Stand up, prisoners of starvation
    Reason thunders in its volcano
    This is the eruption of the end.
    Of the past let us make a clean slate
    Enslaved masses, stand up, stand up.
    The world is about to change its foundation
    We are nothing, let us be all.
    This is the final struggle
    Let us group together, and tomorrow
    The Internationale
    Will be the human race.

  143. 143
    Jade says:

    @Bobby Thomson: AUMF was the only one totally without merit and everyone knew it even if they were afraid to admit it. AUMF is the war that destroyed our country and our economy.

  144. 144
    Aqualad08 says:

    @chopper:

    it’ll be warren, who has been staying out of it for this reason. she’s the one who is best suited to try to mend any fences between the two camps.

    Good call. He has to know the daunting math he’s up against now (his southern state bashing has moved from “excuse for losing” to “the dice were loaded from the start, kids”… it’s a subtle difference, but it’s there). I can’t blame him for trying to win the debate last night because a NY win WOULD shake things up enough to justify continuing the quest.

    But it doesn’t look likely now. My biggest concern is that unlike Obama and Clinton in 2008 (who both had futures in the Democratic party regardless of the outcomes), Bernie isn’t beholden to the DNC in any way. Warren might be the only person to convince him that the change he’s been fighting for (nobly up until recently) MIGHT not happen under President Clinton, but DEFINITELY won’t happen under Presidents Trump or Cruz… if nothing else, she’ll appoint the right people to SCOTUS and fight for more palatable legislation.

  145. 145
    FlipYrWhig says:

    I think the biggest problem facing Bernie Sanders is that Bernie Sanders is an unpleasant human being who thinks he’s right about everything. Maybe instead of being the Democratic version of Trump he’s the Democratic version of Cruz.

  146. 146
    Brachiator says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    You must be a white guy.

    I’m not afraid of democracy.

  147. 147
    Jade says:

    @Loviatar: That is laughable. How long has he caucused with the dems? How many committees has he been appointed to by dems. Who did Hillary call on the help with that hellish failure HIllaryCare. I hope he goes full independent after the election. I hope all of your Dem initiatives fail by one vote. Democrats are ingrates. He was there when you needed him not just to vote but to bring in support from the fence sitters. You should be ashamed of yourselves pretending he just showed up to the party.

  148. 148
    dr. bloor says:

    @Jade: She’s not going to tell Sanders anything. She’s going to ignore him, at zero risk to her primary campaign and her general election chances.

    As someone said upthread, the most likely bearer of bad news will be Devine, not because he gives a shit about anything having to do with the country, but because he wants to work in Democratic politics in the future.

  149. 149
    Emma says:

    @Jade: He’s already gone full independent. He filed for reelection in Vermont as an independent. Gratitude my tochis. This is politics and he’s just another politician.

  150. 150
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Elie:

    Bernie’s personality and basic character is not a good one for this situation.

    Sanders has been in Washington since, what, 1990? How many of the people in his party (well, sort of) who served alongside him are speaking up for him? I know of two, Jeff Merkley (Senate 2009-present) and Raul Grijalva (House 2003-2006). Why do you suppose that is? Because of THE RUTHLESS CLINTON MACHINE, or because Bernie Sanders is a prim, superior douchenozzle who alienates people by lecturing everyone about their failings?

  151. 151
    cleek says:

    @Jade:

    AUMF is the war that destroyed our country

    the USA was destroyed by the AUMF?

    there are several million Iraqis who would probably happily strangle you in exchange for the privilege of being able to live in such destruction.

  152. 152
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Jade:

    I hope all of your Dem initiatives fail by one vote.

    Yeah, because your spite-boner is more important than the real people whose lives might be improved by Democratic initiatives.

  153. 153
    Elie says:

    @Jade:

    This is who you are…. this is what you value. This is your character.

    I hope all of your Dem initiatives fail by one vote

    And yet you come here lecturing US about righteousness and advocating for the common good, knowing what is at stake in this next election.(or do you) You are beneath contempt.

  154. 154
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Jade: Oh noes, wherever will we find another Democrat from Vermont!?

  155. 155
    cleek says:

    @Jade:

    I hope all of your Dem initiatives fail by one vote.

    oh look, yet another Sanders shill who doesn’t give a fuck about actual policy results. all that matters is the pose.

  156. 156
    NR says:

    @FlipYrWhig: The problem with Bernie Sanders is that he’s giving a voice to people who you would prefer to just shut up and vote for the corporate-approved Democratic candidate.

  157. 157
    Brachiator says:

    @Jeffro:

    Anyway, just a quick note on last night’s debate (which I told myself I wasn’t gonna watch, then watched anyway). It’s mid-April. One candidate has a realistic path to the Democratic nomination, one doesn’t. One is a multiple-issue candidate, one isn’t. One has been battle-tested by the Rs to the nth degree, one hasn’t.

    In 2008, some worried that a young and untested Obama would not be able to stand up to the Republican political machine. These people wuz wrong. I was very impressed by Clinton’s Benghazi appearance, which maybe certifies her toughness. But I am not too worried about Sanders.

    And while technically either one would make history by being elected President this November…only one of these two will keep President Obama’s policies rolling right along, broaden the Dem coalition even further, AND have a possibility of getting re-elected in 2020.

    The stuff that Clinton talks about keeping Obama’s policies rolling along is largely rhetoric. No one knows what we will need to deal with in 2016 and beyond. And whoever is elected president (assuming we win) will have to deal with all kind of GOP madness.

    Right now, the reasons people have for preferring Hillary are totally valid and understandable. But I think that Sanders’ supporters have a strong case as well.

  158. 158
    JMG says:

    If Sanders doesn’t enthusiastically, or at least dutifully, support nominee Clinton, his influence in American politics, now at an unbelievable high, will drop to zero on Nov, 9, 2016 no matter who wins the election. If he drags his feet and the Republican wins, the remaining Democrats in Congress will take vengeance with gusto. If Clinton wins with a no-show Bernie, why should she listen to him? So he will do so. He’s too experienced a pol not to know this.

  159. 159
    Jade says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: It is not a foolish comment. I was very upset when Obama picked the old conservative white guy. We need more women and minorities on the court to reflect the countries diversity. He should have tried to find a black femaie lesbian. He cirtainly should have appointed a younger candidate.

    I have a better idea, Obama withdraw his nom now.

  160. 160
    cleek says:

    @Jade:

    He should have tried to find a black femaie lesbian.

    parody troll.

  161. 161
    Brachiator says:

    @Emma:

    Electing someone president doesn’t even come close to a political revolution

    It’s a start.

    Even moving the idiotic “Overton window” isn’t a revolution. A revolution means changing the political system, which includes the economic system.

    Mildred: Hey Johnny, what are you rebelling against?
    Johnny: Whadda you got?

    — The Wild One

  162. 162
    Jade says:

    @Bobby Thomson: He should shut up because free speech is no longer the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.

  163. 163
    Beatrice says:

    @Jade:

    You obviously forgot that Hillary continued her campaign even when Obama has 100% of the delegates he needed for the nomination? Someone needs to pull Hillary aside and remind her that she did not tone it down one bit in 2008 even after the nomination was lost.

    June 3, 2008.
    Sen. Barack Obama achieved the 2,118 needed to clinch the Democratic nomination for president last night and made history by becoming the first African American to win a major party’s presidential.

    June 7, 2008.
    Sen. Hillary Clinton conceded the Democratic nomination to Sen. Barack Obama Saturday in Washington.
    “Today, as I suspend my campaign, I congratulated him on the victory he has won. … I endorse him and throw my full support behind him.”

    But those four days were devastating.

  164. 164
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @NR: The problem with Bernie Sanders is that his “movement” invites a lot of grandiose know-nothings to contentedly blather on about how other people are “corporate” this and that and congratulate each other for it, but, to be fair, you were like that well before he decided to run.

  165. 165
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @JMG:

    He’s too experienced a pol not to know this.

    I dunno, using politics to be political sounds kinda corrupt to ol’ Bernie Sanders.

  166. 166
    chopper says:

    @NR:

    no, the problem with sanders is that he’s a shitty candidate for president.

  167. 167
    Emma says:

    @Brachiator: That’s a nice attitude when you’re not worried about collateral damage. Four to eight years of a Republican president with a Republican congress and the only revolution possibility you’ve got left uses guns and guerilla warfare.

  168. 168
    Elie says:

    @NR:

    If you and Jade reflect the character of his supporters, it is a sad day. Such sad souls. And your day is not complete until you share your negative energy with people who care about something — the outcome of this next election and the danger we face.

  169. 169
    Jade says:

    @Betty Cracker: Nasty tone is a red herring. Won’t matter at all. What will matter is you ran a polarizing candidate with very high negatives, who people think is a liar, who people think is untrustworthy, who people think is greedy, who people think is a warmonger. Not much to unite people who want the government to be more people centered and less business centric. Can’t wait for the Benghazi report to drop after the nom and for the email investigation to reappear. The Republicans have been prepared for her for a long time. Bills blowjobs back on deck in August.

  170. 170
    chopper says:

    @Jade:

    You obviously forgot that Hillary continued her campaign even when Obama has 100% of the delegates he needed for the nomination?

    wot, for those four days? dang, what a mess that made.

  171. 171
    Emma says:

    @Jade: And your planet has how many moons?

  172. 172
    chopper says:

    @Jade:

    Can’t wait for the Benghazi report to drop after the nom and for the email investigation to reappear.

    i’m sure you can’t. like a classic republican, your ultimate motivation is spite.

  173. 173
    Jade says:

    @Hal: The party who gets the most independent voters each cycle wins. Surprised to see you would rather lose than embrace the independents who decide each presidential election. Good luck with that.

  174. 174
    NR says:

    @Elie: Whereas Hillary supporters are all sunny and positive people who never have an unkind word to say about anyone.

    All it takes is one look at the post above these comments to see what bullshit that claim is.

  175. 175
    Dan says:

    @Jade:

    I’m grateful that Obama is far, far more adult and gracious than you are indicating yourself to be this afternoon.

  176. 176
    Jade says:

    @Lynn Dee: Yet Obama has always said he will not make big changes during the lame duck session after the election. He has been 100% consistent each time. I see no reason why he would not agree to withdraw the nomination. He should do it as soon as the convention picks the nominee. Even Clinton will want someone much younger.

  177. 177
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Jade:

    AUMF is the war that destroyed our country

    I’m not going to say “ever,” but this is the most ahistorical statement I’ve read here in quite a while.

  178. 178
    gwangung says:

    @NR: No.

    Not helping by lying here.

  179. 179
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Elie: Hey, no fair, I’ve got a lot of negative energy too!

  180. 180
    Linnaeus says:

    @JMG:

    If Sanders doesn’t enthusiastically, or at least dutifully, support nominee Clinton, his influence in American politics, now at an unbelievable high, will drop to zero on Nov, 9, 2016 no matter who wins the election.

    He’s said publicly that he will support Clinton as the Democratic nominee, so I’m willing to give him a chance to do that.

  181. 181
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @Emma:

    And your planet has how many moons?

    The planet where Bernie and his supporters think that the country is waiting for his clarion call (scoldy finger wagging actually) for the biggest tax increase in American peace time history, to give the government a much broader reach into their health care, their wages, their public education system, and the dismantling of large sectors of the economy, the beneficiaries of which will include, most importantly, all of “those people”. The Republicans will simply be in awe of Bernie and his passive aggressive most perfectly progressive Bernfeelers. The fact that Bernie has shown himself unable to organize a two car funeral without alienating everyone he needs to make it happen will be hand waved away by the millions of Bernfeeling Bernfeelers permanently encamped outside Mitch McConnell’s window. Bernie said so, and it shall be done. We saw how smoothly the states accept federal money to expand Medicaid – they’ll all roll over to raise the taxes necessary for Bernie’s vision, because shut up, that’s why.

  182. 182
    NR says:

    @gwangung: LOL. The constant message you guys have had for Sanders supporters for months is “Sit down, shut up, and vote for Hillary in November.”

  183. 183
    Jade says:

    @FlipYrWhig: Bernie is so unfavorable that he has the highest favorable rating in either party and the lowest negative rating.

  184. 184
    chopper says:

    @dr. bloor:

    the most likely bearer of bad news will be devine, who is hoping beyond hope that this goes all the way to the convention so he can keep getting handed sacks of money by sanders.

  185. 185
    cleek says:

    @Jade:
    and is still losing.

  186. 186
    Jade says:

    @chopper: Nope my motivation is reading an article and repeating the timeline that Trey Gowdy announced, and the process that the FBI alluded to.

  187. 187
    NR says:

    @Jade: No no, he’s an angry old man who everyone hates. BJ told me so.

  188. 188
    Jade says:

    @FlipYrWhig: Funny, all the articles talk about how well he gets along with both parties. Can you provide link to support your contention that he is unpopular in the senate?

  189. 189
    chopper says:

    @Jade:

    you’ve revealed your “spite boner” (thanks, betty) motivation quite well enough.

  190. 190
    Jade says:

    @NR: You forgot to add: you are stupid, leave the country, you are a berniebro, and all those messages that make me want to make calls, knock on doors, and vote for Hillary.

  191. 191
    Jade says:

    @Dan: Adult and gracious means agree with you 100%. I don’t call people names or get personal. I simply have a different opinion and support a different candidate. I don’t have a problem with people supporting Hillary, that what election are a contest between multiple people.

  192. 192
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @Jade:

    From a Vermont reporter who knows him well

    Barney Frank has strong opinions of trying to work with him.

    According to Al Giordano (a political reporter), if you ask Elizabeth Warren about him, you’ll get quite an earful.

    You’d think at least Pat Leahy would give him a tumble this time around, but nope. No allies, no good will. Leadery!

  193. 193
    Hal says:

    @Jade:

    The party who gets the most independent voters each cycle wins. Surprised to see you would rather lose than embrace the independents who decide each presidential election. Good luck with that.

    Nonsense. Independent voters are largely either lean dem or lean republican, they just do not prefer an official party affiliation. Independents as swing voters is a myth. Most independents do not vary their vote by party per election. It is far more like that most independents and unaffiliated voters will vote for a specific party over and over again. So again, dem leaning independents are not going to swing republican. Would Sanders get a larger percentage of those dem leaning independents? I wouldn’t be surprised if the answer is yes, but that doesn’t mean Clinton is going to tank on the power of some mythological independent voter either.

  194. 194
    JMG says:

    Part of the problem exhibited in last night’s debate and on comment threads such as this is structural. The proportional delegate selection formula for Democratic primaries and caucuses is fairer than winner-take-all, but it also insures longer campaigns because it prevents the leader from putting the eventual runner-up away, and gives a runner-up with funding hope to keep fighting as he/she still has a possible chance of victory. Long campaigns breed frustration, anger, and foolishness.

  195. 195

    You guys are adorable.

    Hey, let’s write some jokes!
    a) How many Bernfeelers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
    1) How many Hillbots does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

  196. 196
    Jade says:

    @Elie: Negative energy = pointing out our problems with Hillary and supporting another candidate.

  197. 197
    starscream says:

    Stop feeding the obvious troll.

    Re: Bernie, Vox had a piece recently that even his supporters aren’t prepared to pay as much in taxes as he’s proposing. Me personally, I would pay an additional ten THOUSAND dollars a year. I’m not poor, but I’m not rolling in it either. I don’t see him winning a general election once (legitimate!) numbers like that become more well-known.

  198. 198
    Aqualad08 says:

    @Jade:

    You obviously forgot that Hillary continued her campaign even when Obama has 100% of the delegates he needed for the nomination?

    Only that’s not what happened. He never had 100% until almost the very end. The DNC didn’t rule on what to do with Florida and Michigan’s disputed slates until May 31. He didn’t technically clinch the pledged delegate lead until the LAST DAY of the primaries (June 3) and got 15 delegates out of Montana and South Dakota to put him over the top. She conceded four days later.

    Bernie is NOT in the same boat has Hillary 2008. There are no phantom primaries to hash out. He’s not nearly as close to her as she was to Obama in 2008. He was up by an estimated 120 delegates at this point in 2008 after his Mississippi win on March 11. It would be another six weeks until PA voted on April 22, a contest she would win pretty soundly. Her staying in made more sense, especially with MI and FL hanging over everyone’s heads.

  199. 199
    John D says:

    @Jade:

    I was very upset when Obama picked the old conservative white guy.

    Oh, FFS. On no scale is this pick a conservative.

    Obama is one of the finest judges of legal acumen I have ever seen. The two SC justices he has gotten onto the court have been fantastic. I trust his judgment.

    You, not so much. So why should I care about your feelings regarding his pick? Why should I trust you, random internet commenter, over Obama, a man who has demonstrated a capability in this exact role twice already?

  200. 200
    Dan says:

    @Jade:

    I was specifically reacting to your image of a spiteful Obama gleefully snickering at Hillary and her troubles with Bernie’s campaign that is untethered by rhetorical restraint or paying attention to mathematics. I am 100% sure that Obama is not that petty.

  201. 201
    John D says:

    @Jade:

    The party who gets the most independent voters each cycle wins.

    Pop quiz: Who won the (I) vote in 2012?

  202. 202
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    a) How many Bernfeelers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

    Zero. Bernie’s halo is the only light they need.

    1) How many Hillbots does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

    Saying “screw in” makes you a misogynist.

  203. 203
    Dee Loralei says:

    @Rand Careaga: the more vicious an argument is the less important the topic is Sayre’s Law. Trust me on this one.

  204. 204
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    And a recent addition to the canon:

    Rangel told Golodryga that in all of his years in Congress, he’s “never had a conversation with Sen. Sanders.” He said, “He’s the type of person that is so proud that he’s not a Republican and he’s not a Democrat that he feels compelled not to converse with you, but to give a lecture to you so that you would know how much he knows about whatever he’s talking about.” He continued, “I don’t know any bill that I associate with him.” (Yahoo News)

  205. 205
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Jade: No, negative energy is “I hope all of your Dem initiatives fail by one vote.”

  206. 206
    glory b says:

    @Brachiator: Historically, some of us have good reason to be.

  207. 207
  208. 208
    Elie says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    That was a good article you linked to. It supports my sense of Bernie as truly temperamentally unfit for the office of President. I think that is widely known among his peers and throughout his career. It is too bad that so many people have put such stock in HIM, instead of his positions — which are worthy and would benefit from a better and more prepared person to further them.

    And BTW, didn’t he say he was going to release his last year tax returns today? Maybe Jade knows where they are and why all his assets are in his wife’s name.

    How is he doing at the Vatican? What is he doing at the Vatican? Maybe Jade knows.

  209. 209
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Jade:

    He should have tried to find a black femaie lesbian.

    As opposed to a black male lesbian?

  210. 210
    Aqualad08 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    a) How many Bernfeelers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
    1) How many Hillbots does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

    a) One. They hold up the lightbulb and the world revolves around them.

    1) I’ll tell you once everybody agrees to disclose how many of their supporters it would take to screw in a lightbulb.

  211. 211
    Linnaeus says:

    @Elie:

    Yeah, I’m deeply sympathetic to Sanders’s positions, but he’s just not the guy for the job.

  212. 212
    dr. bloor says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Nicely done. Very nicely done, indeed.

  213. 213
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    I have yet to hear anything different from anyone who has had to deal with him either personally or professionally. Democrats and Republicans will both tell him to go fuck himself. I guess that’s what it means to be “Independent”. Great, but take that shtick back to Vermont where apparently that’s all it takes to succeed. I don’t think he could put a cabinet together.

  214. 214
    Brachiator says:

    @Emma:

    That’s a nice attitude when you’re not worried about collateral damage. Four to eight years of a Republican president with a Republican congress and the only revolution possibility you’ve got left uses guns and guerilla warfare.

    I do not see that the vigorous, sometimes even heated debates between HRC and Sanders will help the GOP win in November.

  215. 215
    Jade says:

    @gwangung: This is the best compilation with links:

  216. 216
    Turgidson says:

    @Loviatar:

    Bernie Sanders has been a Democrat for less than a year (April 30, 2015). He has no history of loyalty to the Democratic party. Why are we expecting him to show loyalty now?

    Because he’s running for their fucking presidential nomination.

  217. 217
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Jade: Oh, I get it — you’re a spoof troll! It all makes sense now. Carry on!

  218. 218
    Feathers says:

    One thing I find sad about Sander’s current behavior is that he is putting the future of his young supporters at risk. Will “I was a big Sander’s fan,” said by a white guy (or gal) set off the “I’m dealing with a misogynist at best and possible racist” tingle in the back of people’s minds?

    You know it is there. Many of his supporters are too young to understand the dog whistles, but they are there for everyone else to see. Saying you liked Bernie will mean that either you didn’t see them or didn’t care, neither of which are good things.

  219. 219
  220. 220
    Brachiator says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    a) How many Bernfeelers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
    Two. One to screw in the bulb, and another to point out that in Europe they’ve had self-screwing lightbulbs for years.

    1) How many Hillbots does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
    It takes a village….

    I’m here all night. Be sure to tip your waitress.

  221. 221
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @geg6:

    The more they debate, the more I want to punch Sanders in his mansplaining, finger wagging, condescending face.

    You made my statement better than I was getting ready to do. Thanks.

  222. 222
  223. 223
    Jade says:

    @gwangung: Go to Twitter and do a search for Wikileaks + Clinton. Good one stop shopping for her emails, articles, and other documents that show she says one thing to the little people and the opposite to other countries and corporations.

  224. 224
    Irony Abounds says:

    It just sucks that Hillary (the ever cautious and calculating establishment type with terrible judgement) and Bernie (the holier than thou dyspeptic curmudgeon whose domestic policy plans are utterly pie in the sky and economically ruinous) are the two best candidates the Dems could drudge up this election. Uncle Joe and Elizabeth would have been immensely better. Beyond those two, it is hard to come up with a Dem candidate who is the least bit known. The Dems’ bench is woefully short.

  225. 225

    @Jade: Your source is Twitter?

    Also, when I google ‘wikileaks c’, the first two autosuggests are ‘wikileaks clinton’ and ‘wikileaks chemtrails’, fun fact

  226. 226
    Jeffro says:

    @The Thin Black Duke: Why thanks! And have a great, Bernz vs. Hillz arguments-free weekend (I know I will =)

  227. 227
    Barbara says:

    @Feathers: Honestly, that seems a tad paranoid at this point.

  228. 228

    @Major Major Major Major: Lastly, (bring back my edit button!), you’d think after a month of being public somebody would have come up with a smoking gun from her emails. Maybe anything at all, portable and quotable for people to repeat everywhere. I’ve seen nothing.

  229. 229
    dr. bloor says:

    @Turgidson: Bernie’s commitment to the Democratic Party is the same as an Uber customer’s is to their ride.

  230. 230
    Germy says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Can you imagine if we could examine years and years of the emails of Ted Cruz?

  231. 231
    dr. bloor says:

    @Germy: Not often that you see “Jesus” and “dildo” as the two most prominent elements of a word cloud.

  232. 232
  233. 233
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @John D: Oh, FFS. On no scale is this pick a conservative.

    They only know (feel) what they tell each other on twitter

    at Eschaton, when they were still in their PUMA/Naderite post-2008 tantrum (they may still be) it was an article of faith that Sotomayor was a crypto-pro-life pick, because Mr Hopey-Changey stole Hillary’s nomination and then had that creepy preacher guy at his inauguration.

  234. 234
    Elie says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Truly, WHAT are they looking for anyway? WHAT is the hypothesis driving this ongoing issue? She revealed some state secret known to be secret at the time? WHAT WHAT WHAT????? I can’t even remember hearing what anyone said they thought she did beyond having the separate email account that several other SOS confessed as having…

    It is beyond frustratingly sad to hear this same shit coming out of so called progressives….

  235. 235
    NR says:

    @Feathers: I love this attitude toward Sanders supporters. “You’re all dirty, dirty racists and sexists! But vote for us in November!”

    I predict this approach will go over really well.

  236. 236
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @NR: in fairness, I never called you sexist and racist, I called you stupid. And I was calling you stupid before you knew who Bernie Sanders was, back during your ignorant tantrums about the ACA

  237. 237
    germy says:

    @Major Major Major Major: @dr. bloor: I thought Cruz was quite a ladies’ man, and so his private emails would be full of pleading mash notes.

  238. 238
    Monala says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Speaking of the 2000 election, Ralph Nader is keeping interesting company lately – white supremacists and their ilk. Link

  239. 239
    NR says:

    @Feathers: Oh, and what about all the non-white people and women who are supporting Sanders? I guess you think they’re too stupid to see all these “dog whistles” coming from him. That’s pretty racist and sexist of you.

  240. 240
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Elie:

    It is too bad that so many people have put such stock in HIM, instead of his positions — which are worthy and would benefit from a better and more prepared person to further them.

    But I think that’s the paradox. If Martin O’Malley had all the same positions Bernie Sanders does, it wouldn’t connect with fans the way Bernie Sanders has, because O’Malley is too handsome and too rehearsed. A large part of the reason why the people who believe in Bernie Sanders are so ardent about him, I have to believe, is that his dumpiness and dishevelment and prickliness serve as guarantors of his honesty/integrity/virtue. He’s running an antipolitics campaign. I’d put him in the same box as Bill Bradley and John McCain, media-wise: you’re supposed to say, wow, he’s Not Like Most Of Them, he’s a Straight Shooter, you Never Know What’s Coming Out Of His Mouth, he’s Not Supposed To Say It That Way. IOW, without the spiky personality and lack of polish he’s just another politician.

  241. 241
    Jade says:

    @Major Major Major Major: If you want the links to her actual emails and official documents you can find them there. If you didn’t really want sources, you can continue to point and laugh.

  242. 242

    @Jade: Twitter is for me complaining about my hair. I come here for reasoned (heh!) political argument. Perhaps you could provide some examples, since they’re so easy to find?

  243. 243
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @FlipYrWhig: that’s why I don’t buy the idea that the Bernie! phenom proves that Elizabeth Warren could have won the primary. I don’t think Professor Warren has that same Doc Brown appeal, and I don’t think she would have tossed out the idea of ‘free college’. She probably would’ve gotten the same middle-aged Volvo demographic, but not their kids

  244. 244
    Lynn Dee says:

    @Jade:

    Hillary suspended her campaign at the end of the primaries. She did not take it to the convention on the grounds Barack Obama hadn’t received a majority in pledged delegates and she would try to win (back) enough superdelegates at the convention. Is that what you expect Bernie will do?

  245. 245
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Jade: “If you’re too lazy to back up my assertions, I can’t help you!”

    This is the kind of deep thinking, sophistication and youthful energy that will bring the Revolution.

  246. 246
    LuigidaMan says:

    Here, I’ll say it for all of you:

    Bernie – War over. Drop out. You lost. You’re not a Democrat anyways, so I doubt you’ll lose any sleep over it.

    There, that was easy!

  247. 247
    germy says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I come here for reasoned (heh!) political argument. “Oh, I’m sorry, but this is Abuse. Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.”

  248. 248
    Jade says:

    @FlipYrWhig: You are wrong, it’s the policies. If Hillary sincerely supported the things he does, I would support her in a minute.

  249. 249
    Elie says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Yes.. I see that. But the guy can’t do the job in any way. One way would be to let this play out — which it will in its own way — and let his less extreme followers just see he does not have the temperament or balance to do this difficult job. I have to believe that some proportion of his followers are not insane and will eventually, even regretfully, agree he can’t do the job of President.

  250. 250
    Lynn Dee says:

    @Jade:

    As Dave Weigel put it, Dems said they liked the idea of Bernie in the campaign to move Hillary to the left. The thing is, when she moves left, Bernie (and his supporters) cry “Scam!” whenever she moves left.

  251. 251
    Elie says:

    @Jade:

    Hey Jade, where are those tax returns from Mr. Pure? Why do you think he doesn’t believe in his own transparency and accountability? Why?

  252. 252
    Brachiator says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    From a Vermont reporter who knows him well

    Great article. He sounds a lot like British Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn

    Sanders:

    “Bernie has no social skills, no sense of humor, and he’s quick to boil over. He’s the most unpolitical person in politics I’ve ever come across,” Graf said. Others who have covered Sanders agree.

    Corbyn:

    In the same year [1974] he married fellow Labour councillor, Jane Chapman, a university lecturer.
    Chapman says she married Corbyn for his “honesty” and “principles” but she soon grew weary of his intense focus on politics.
    “Politics became our life. He was out most evenings because when we weren’t at meetings he would go to the Labour headquarters, and do photocopying – in those days you couldn’t print because there were no computers,’

  253. 253
    Cacti says:

    @Lynn Dee:

    As Dave Weigel put it, Dems said they liked the idea of Bernie in the campaign to move Hillary to the left. The thing is, when she moves left, Bernie (and his supporters) cry “Scam!” whenever she moves left.

    Bernie is the first ever hipster candidate for POTUS.

  254. 254
    Jade says:

    @Lynn Dee: I expect him to compete during all of the primaries. If he is close I expect him to take it to the convention because superdelegates can switch sides. If he is not close I expect him to drop out. If he is ahead in total state delegates I expect him to be the nominee.

  255. 255

    @Brachiator:

    Politics became our life. He was out most evenings because when we weren’t at meetings he would go to the Labour headquarters, and do photocopying – in those days you couldn’t print because there were no computers…

    At least Corbyn knows how to use a photocopier.

  256. 256
    Jade says:

    @Brachiator: I asked for comments from people in the Senate and all you could come up with is a reporter and a made up analogy.

  257. 257

    @Jade: I think you’re right, there.

  258. 258
    Jade says:

    @Elie: Your long wait is almost over. He said at the debate he would release them today. He is not a liar. By the way where are those Wall Street Speech transcripts from Hillary?

  259. 259

    Aw man, I lost myself in reading this comment thread and just flossed too much.

  260. 260
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: According to Al Giordano (a political reporter), if you ask Elizabeth Warren about him, you’ll get quite an earful.

    Damn I’d like to hear that

  261. 261
    Jade says:

    @Major Major Major Major: John Cole lives on Twitter.

  262. 262
    Turgidson says:

    @dr. bloor:

    Yep, pretty much. The cognitive dissonance and wishful thinking on display re Bernie’s “puhliticul revoluuution” are becoming quite tedious. To be clear, I’m grateful that Bernie decided to run in the Democratic primary rather than go Nader on us. And in spite of the recent ugliness, I think he’s a good guy with good intentions and is angry about the right things. But his notion that his win would be followed by tens of thousands of millenials descending upon the Capitol Building and making the Zombie-Eyed Granny Starver’s life so miserable that he feels he has no choice but to allow Bernie’s Single-Payer and Unicorns for All bill to come to a vote, and pass, in the House? The amount of willful delusion it takes to actually believe that rivals what the GOP wallows in.

    What I’m pretty sure would actually happen is that his victorious army would believe their work to be done on Wednesday morning after the election, go home, and then react in disbelief a few months later after Bernie is inaugurated, when Paul Ryan tells Bernie to cram his single payer bill right up his ass, and scream about how Bernie betrayed “real progressives” and we totally could have had the Single Payer and Unicorn bill he promised if he’d just yelled a little louder about it. I mean, Obama was blamed, bitterly, for breaking promises he quite clearly did not make (but had imputed upon him by the Manic Progressive types anyway). Bernie is actually promising things he can’t possibly achieve unless there’s an unexplained mass death wave among Republican voters before November. The disillusionment when he almost inevitably fails to deliver and either gets nothing or settles for a “shit sandwich” compromise, like that “corporate whore” Obama always did, would be massive and could be extremely damaging to liberal progress.

    But, he’s not going to win. So, we’ll probably be spared that scenario. Ironically, I think the purity brigade will go into a HRC presidency pre-disillusioned and actually be pleasantly surprised by the extent to which Hillary governs from the center left and not as a secret Republican like they were expecting.

  263. 263
    patroclus says:

    I thought it was a terrible debate because both of them were shouting all the time and, except for a few instances (women’s liberty, LGBT stuff, minimum wage), fairly short on substance. But I don’t think it’ll matter all that much because it’s NY and that’s sort of what happens there (Primary Colors – “you hetero fuck”). All the sniping and sarcasm was off-putting, but still far from what 2008 degenerated into (at about this time in the primary season). So far, at least, there has been no Harriet Christian moment, no Jeremiah Wright or a 9-hour wankfest on Florida-Michigan delegates. So, as bad as it was last night, it’s still been fairly tame. I don’t expect any more debates, but I expect this thing to last until June and California at which time Bernie will need to concede gracefully or it will be worse than 2008. But until then, I see no reason for him to stop trying to get votes and delegates although the math will look increasingly more difficult for him.

  264. 264
    Brachiator says:

    @Jade:

    I asked for comments from people in the Senate and all you could come up with is a reporter and a made up analogy.

    I was reacting to another poster’s link of a story about Sanders. I wasn’t looking for comments from people in the Senate.

  265. 265
    Tom Q says:

    @FlipYrWhig: Paul Tsongas, whose ideology was obviously way different from Sanders’, had something of the same appeal: his annoying voice made him so obviously not a slick candidate that his supporters took it to mean he must be an ardent truth-teller (though it turned out he was lying about his cancer, and wouldn’t have survived his term).

    I remember someone at the time referencing a comment baseball guru Bill James wrote: that, if you saw a shortstop come to the plate batting .196, you’d assume he must be a whale of a fielder, because why else would he be in the game?

    In fact, the attacks Bernie people are lobbing at Hillary are pretty close to what Tsongas supporters threw at Bill. In each case, primary voters chose the effective politician over the moralizer.

  266. 266

    @Jade: Where he comes up with such brilliant thoughts as “WOO WOO WOO WOO WOOPOOT WOO WOO“, yes.

  267. 267
    Lynn Dee says:

    @Jade:

    What part of “It’s Obama’s pick” — and that’s per the Constitution — do you not understand?

  268. 268
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Major Major Major Major: fuck the speech transcripts, what the world wants is an explanation of Woo Woo Woo Woopoot Woo

  269. 269
    Lynn Dee says:

    @Jade:

    You understand the AUMF was not a war, right?

  270. 270
    dogwood says:

    @Jade:
    Bernie is lucky that his colleagues are keeping their mouths shut. No need to trash him if he doesn’t have a path to the nomination. No need to trash his wife for her shady professional history either. But if Bernie is behind in pledged delegates and starts harassing super delegates to switch their votes, his favorables are going to plummet very quickly. The press will be on him and his wife nonstop, and his tax proposals will be front and center. It won’t be pretty, but that’s how it will work.

  271. 271

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: You omitted two woo’s. WHAT ARE YOU HIDING

  272. 272
    Ruckus says:

    @Turgidson:

    actually be pleasantly surprised

    Why? President Obama has done pretty much what should have been expected of him and they haven’t been pleasantly surprised. That’s why they are angry that they don’t have single payer now.

    They have unrealistic expectations, so realistic outcomes will never be enough, no matter how positive those outcomes actually are.

  273. 273
    Aqualad08 says:

    @Jade:

    I expect him to compete during all of the primaries. If he is close I expect him to take it to the convention because superdelegates can switch sides. If he is not close I expect him to drop out. If he is ahead in total state delegates I expect him to be the nominee.

    Fine on the competing, but the superdelegates aren’t going to rescue him. If he has the pledged delegate lead, they aren’t going to rescue her either. Ignore the superdelegates, They will go with the pledged delegate leader. And that person will be Hillary unless he finds a way to win the rest of these contests by 15% each. He loses NY by ANY margin, or even wins by less than 15%, his job moving forward is even more difficult. If she win NY by a modest 10%, he would need to win the rest of the races by 17.2%. If the Tuesday after that shakes out with modest wins for her in everything but RI, he’ll need to win what’s left by 25%.

    Feel the Bern if you’d like, but I’ve done the math.

  274. 274
    J R in WV says:

    @Jade:

    For this to be taken seriously (“she is lying through her teeth. She will say anything and do anything to be elected.”) you need to list more than a few lies, and associate each one with proof of the untruth.

    Because as far as I can tell, all the accusations of Hillary Clinton’s mendacity are baseless accusations from Republicans and faux-Democrats who work to elect Republicans.

    Which makes you a Republican troll, at a bare minimum.

    Regarding Senator Sanders’ contempt for President Obama, if it is true that he holds contempt for the President, that only further justifies the contempt I have learned for Senator Sanders, as I watch his political movement fail utterly because of his lack of a tactical plan to effect his strategy.

    You gotta have a strategic promise, but you also have to have a tactical plan for getting to that strategic promise. Obama had both. Hillary seems to have both.

    Senator Sanders doesn’t seem to have either, past one Power-Point slide of talking points, which (one slide!?) doesn’t get you into a meeting, much less the White House. Not contempt for Senator Sanders, on second thought. Just non-interest and dislike.

    Will go now to make a second contribution to Hillary. A small one, that seems to be the thing this year. Maybe several small ones, to different women running for the Senate and House. Emily’s List is a good thing too.

  275. 275
    dogwood says:

    @Ruckus:
    Ideologues don’t care about outcomes.

  276. 276
    Calouste says:

    @Jade:

    Your long wait is almost over. He said at the debate he would release them today. He is not a liar. By the way where are those Wall Street Speech transcripts from Hillary?

    http://www.factcheck.org/2016/.....-question/

    Tapper, April 3: Before the New York primary, will you match her? Will you post your full returns for the last eight years?

    Sanders: You know, we are not — you know, to be very honest with you, you know who does our tax returns? My wife does our tax returns. We have been a little bit busy lately.

    So, we will get out as much information as we can. There ain’t going to be very much exciting in that. I get a salary from the United States Senate. You know, there’s not going to be anything new in it that there hasn’t — people haven’t seen for the last many years, but we will get it out as soon as we can.

    Tapper: But nobody — nobody has seen them at all, I guess, is the point. And whether or not there’s anything exciting in them …

    Sanders: No, that is not true. That is — that is not true. Of course, we have released them in the past

    And of course “very honest” is a tell as much as anything that a lie is coming.

  277. 277
    Elie says:

    Where Bernie is today.

    Vatican City (CNN) — Days before the critical New York primary, one Democratic presidential candidate is somewhere he can’t rack up any last-minute primary votes.

    Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders is at the Vatican to address a conference on social, economic and environmental issues.
    Sanders landed in Rome on Friday morning, traveling in an escorted motorcade to the Vatican. His wife Jane, their four children and a few grandchildren are traveling with him.

    He entered through the Perugino Gate of Vatican City, where he was greeted by a dozen or so expat supporters bearing signs reading, “Rome is berning.”

    Sanders began his 15-minute speech to the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences with a showing of solidarity and admiration for Pope Francis, emphasizing their agreement on economic justice.

    “There are few places in modern thought that rival the depth and insight of the Church’s moral teachings on the market economy,” Sanders said, a topic which he himself has been speaking about during the presidential race for months.

    His speech Friday largely echoed his regular remarks on the campaign trail in the United States: that the concentration of wealth is in too few hands and the middle class is disappearing.

    “We can say that with unregulated globalization, a world market economy built on speculative finance burst through the legal, political and moral constraints that had once served to protect the common good,” he said.

    After his address, the Vermont senator walked through the same gate and greeted onlookers before briefly speaking to the press.

    Sanders had said before the trip that he would be honored to meet Pope Francis. But on Friday morning, Francis sent a note to conference attendees saying that would not be able to attend because he is leaving for a trip to Lesbos early Saturday morning. The Greek island has become a focal point of the Syrian refugee crisis

    Bernie is 75 years old and has added an international trip to make a 15 minute speech that no one will care about since he said the same stuff as he says here. The article addresses some of the pros and cons of his trip given the timing but his calculus was that it was a good thing so there it is…

  278. 278
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Jade:

    He said at the debate he would release them today.

    While he’s in Rome? Where he went, incidentally, with his wife, their four children and most of his grandchildren. To give a 15-minute speech.

  279. 279
    Immanentize says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    a) How many Bernfeelers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
    1) How many Hillbots does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

    a) About 300 more than are at this moment available.
    1) That’s Bill’s job.

  280. 280
    Lynn Dee says:

    @dogwood:

    What is her shady professional history? I missed that.

  281. 281
    patroclus says:

    @dogwood: There’s no need to slam Bernie because he’s at his high-water mark right now and appears headed for a losing streak for the next few weeks. He has a shot in Connecticut and possibly Rhode Island but there’s only 1 caucus left and he trails significantly in most of the Mid-Atlantic states. There’s really no point in attacking him or his supporters in my view. I think that last night was probably the low point in terms of sniping and sarcasm and that things will begin to quiet down after NY on the Dem side. But we’ll see. Bernie’s supporters will likely increase their sniping as the situation becomes more dire.

  282. 282
    cleek says:

    @Ruckus:

    They have unrealistic expectations, so realistic outcomes will never be enough, no matter how positive those outcomes actually are.

    it seems pretty clear to me that a lot of them are fueled not by policy preferences, but by the need to permanently rage against the machine. they are all about the protest, not the policy. if Sanders was elected, they’d immediately find a reason to turn on him (probably when he signed his first bill and they learned it didn’t take the maximally-left position).

  283. 283
    Immanentize says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Friday news dump, natch!

  284. 284
    jl says:

    Thanks to Lady Cracker for a balanced discussion. As a(Edit: n ex-) Sanders mega-donor, I agree with all of it. Except that I don’t see signs that the Democrats are in danger of being seriously split, or there is bad blood between the candidates.

    Things have been reversed for me in terms of how the candidates strike me emotionally. At first HRC really irritated me more, but now it is Sanders. But I try to set emotions aside when thinking about politics, and hope that Democratic primary election and caucus voters can make a good decision on which Democrat is most electable, and I will go with that. Compared to both the current GOP primary and the 2008 Democratic primary, I think things look very good on the Democratic side. I think it is unreasonable to ask either candidate to back off when both still have some chance of winning, and it will probably take a few weeks for the loser to simmer down and think things through.

    And, I don’t see the BS Sanders is pulling as any more damaging that some of HRC’s attacks on Sanders that were taken straight from the GOP issues playbook earlier in the campaign. HRC has mostly stopped that, and they have disappeared into oblivion, as will Sanders nonsensical gyrations on superdelegates, who will laugh at him if he comes in behind in popular vote and pledged delegates.

  285. 285

    Just tossed $5 at Hillary, why not

  286. 286
    Ruckus says:

    @dogwood:
    For me that was a short comment.
    You said the same thing even shorter.
    However. I think they do care about outcomes, they just only care about their outcomes and they don’t care about the road to those outcomes. They are not strategic thinkers. They are dreamers at best. We need dreamers but in a political context they are almost always the losers, primarily because they don’t/can’t sell their ideas, because they are not strategic thinkers. Conservatives can’t sell their ideas to a larger audience either, that’s why they have to bully/buy/obstruct to get them passed.

  287. 287
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Tom Q: Tsongas! I knew I was forgetting somebody in that vein!

  288. 288
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Turgidson:

    What I’m pretty sure would actually happen is that his victorious army would believe their work to be done on Wednesday morning after the election, go home, and then react in disbelief a few months later after Bernie is inaugurated, when Paul Ryan tells Bernie to cram his single payer bill right up his ass, and scream about how Bernie betrayed “real progressives” and we totally could have had the Single Payer and Unicorn bill he promised if he’d just yelled a little louder about it.

    But that’s where the whole ESTABLISHMENT AGAINST US prong really helps. If Bernie were inaugurated and then his great plans didn’t happen, it would be someone else’s fault, say, Charles Schumer’s, who probably deliberately dropped the ball just for spite, because Establishment. Or Hillary, reaching out from beyond the political grave to wreak an eldritch revenge!

  289. 289
    dogwood says:

    @Lynn Dee:
    Her tenure as president of Burlington College appears to be an abject failure. There are questions about her handling of and honesty about finances. Ultimately she was forced out with a $200,000 payoff. There might not be much there, but if he keeps going, the press is going to go after this stuff.

  290. 290
    NR says:

    @Ruckus:

    They have unrealistic expectations, so realistic outcomes will never be enough, no matter how positive those outcomes actually are.

    They just don’t understand the truth that people around here do. Obama can’t fail, he can only be failed.

  291. 291
    Immanentize says:

    @FlipYrWhig: I have a soft spot for Paul Tsongas as he was a quintessentially Lowell, MA guy. Fought cancer hard, lost, but he fought it long and hard.

  292. 292

    @FlipYrWhig: Do you remember during the early days when the Dems had/were close to 60, there was the theory of the ‘rotating enemy’ that The Establishment would set up each week to knock down progressive ideas, so that nobody could point to one person as the problem? Lieberman killed the Medicare expansion. Snowe and Collins limited the size of the stimulus. Etc. These were all just props and strawmen set up by the Establishment so that their puppet Obama, having fooled the masses into thinking he was a progressive, could knock them down and stymie real change. Damn the Establishment!

  293. 293
    Ruckus says:

    @cleek:
    Quite possibly. But isn’t an absolute, all the way left (or right) position a policy position? It’s not a very achievable position in the real world, it’s adherents have no concept of compromise and it will have probably fewer acceptable policy points (single payer, the bible is the official book) but I do see it as a position.

  294. 294
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Jade:

    I hope he goes full independent after the election. I hope all of your Dem initiatives fail by one vote.

    Well aren’t you precious, bless your heart.

  295. 295
    J R in WV says:

    @Jade:

    So “I hope all of your Dem initiatives fail by one vote. Democrats are ingrates.” is your response!

    Proof from your own fingers that YOU, Jade, are not a Democrat, that you hope Democratic initiatives fail, that you believe Democrats are not grateful for the Great Nation we have built, we Democrats, mostly.

    By the way, I think Dumpf’s slogan is a single point of failure – he says right there that he doesn’t believe that America is a Great Nation, today, right now! He is so wrong.

    If America wasn’t great right now, today, he would be locked up for the things he says. For the violence he foments. For the hate he spews. But in America you are allowed to spew hate, for the most part. That’s one of the things that makes us great.

    ETA: I see some consistency in what Democrats seem to think about this stuff, here today. Sweet!

  296. 296
    Josie says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Okay, that made me laugh out loud. And I have to say that I am enjoying all your posts.

  297. 297
    Phoebe says:

    @Mayur: He could have said “How ya like me now?” while twerking the entire time and I’d still vote for him, because he won’t invade Syria. But I understand.

  298. 298
    Calouste says:

    @Gin & Tonic: How many $27 donations did Bernie use to pay for that trip with his family?

    We’re made the believe that he is not beholden to rich donors, nor is he rich himself, and the money must have come from somewhere…

  299. 299
    Gravenstone says:

    @feckless: I do believe your chosen username says it all. Well done!

  300. 300

    @Calouste: Bernie gets $27 donations? You know, I don’t think I’ve ever heard him mention that.

  301. 301
    Captain C says:

    @cleek: “People who don’t come here for the hunting”?

  302. 302
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Do you remember during the early days when the Dems had/were close to 60, there was the theory of the ‘rotating enemy’ that The Establishment would set up each week to knock down progressive ideas, so that nobody could point to one person as the problem?

    If memory serves, that was a Greenwald Special.

  303. 303
    Miss West says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    a) How many Bernfeelers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
    1) How many Hillbots does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

    a. None. Gone to Bernie rally. Also, too, mom will do it.
    1. None. Hillary did it this morning but no one noticed.

  304. 304
    J R in WV says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    a) How many Bernfeelers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

    It can’t be done. The central committee hasn’t decided which direction to turn them yet!

    1) How many Hillbots does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

    It can’t be done! There’s not room to screw in a lightbulb!

    ETA: as a career software guy:

    How many programmers does it take to replace a light bulb?

    It can’t be done… It’s a hardware issue!!

  305. 305

    @J R in WV: How many IT guys does it take to replace a light bulb?

    Well, first you need to try unplugging it and plugging it back in again.

  306. 306
    Turgidson says:

    @Ruckus:

    Because unlike with Obama, where a vocal (but unrepresentative) subset of the progressive base expected him to deliver egalitarian utopia in the first 100 days and abandoned him in disgust when he didn’t deliver what they wrongly thought he’d promised, that crew is already convinced that Hillary is a corrupt center-right stooge. So their expectations will be quite different than they were for Obama or would be for Bernie. Just a theory, anyway.

    Sure, the reaction to Hillary accomplishing something incremental would probably be a blend of sarcasm, “not good enough!” finger wagging, and such. But there would probably be at least some genuine surprise that she delivered anything at all, given that they expect her to spend her first month in office gifting everything not nailed down to Goldman Sachs and bombing brown people for shits and giggles.

  307. 307
    J R in WV says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Oh, good – LOL!! Thanks!

  308. 308
    chopper says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    How many Bernfeelers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

    one to just hold it in place and Revolution does all the turning.

  309. 309
    Monala says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: Speaking of large tax increases, Vox has a Presidential Tax Calculator that can estimate how much more or less you would pay in taxes under each candidate’s tax plans. Under Trump and Cruz, most people’s taxes would go down; under Clinton, they would see small increases, stay the same, or see small decreases (depending on income). Under Sanders, they would increase significantly at all income levels.

    Here’s the calculator. My family would see a huge increase in taxes, even after accounting for reduction in health care costs, if Sanders’ plans were implemented. I know that we couldn’t afford that, and I am of the opinion that it would be a very hard sell for most Americans.

    Well, Vox has now surveyed Americans to find out whether they would be willing to pay the higher taxes Sanders’ plans would require. It turns out that a majority of both Sanders and Clinton supporters are willing to pay more in taxes to achieve universal healthcare and free higher education (Sanders supporters at a higher percentage), but neither group is willing to pay as much in higher taxes as would be required. In fact, Sanders supporters are only willing to have their taxes go up about a fourth of what they would need to to implement Sanders’ agenda. Read more here.

  310. 310
    Ruckus says:

    @J R in WV:
    You must have been in the navy. As an electronics person I could work on 400 amp, 400hrz, 440V generators, all sorts of electronic navigation and communications equipment (and whose light bulbs I was qualified to change) but was not “qualified” to change a regular light bulb. Required an electrician.

  311. 311
    J R in WV says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):

    This is pretty good – “bless your heart” is so sweet on the surface, and conceals the kinfe in your back so well. LOL, for sure!

  312. 312
    catclub says:

    @germy: I told you once.

  313. 313
    chopper says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I went to Twitter to search and as soon as I put in “wikileaks” it auto-added “mason jars in the fridge”. WTH?

  314. 314
    Jade says:

    @Lynn Dee: It was authorization for a war that actually happened.

  315. 315
    J R in WV says:

    @Monala:

    “Under Trump and Cruz, most people’s taxes would go down…” probably true, but the government would stop working.

    What’s that road you drive every day worth to you?

    What’s Social Security worth to you? or to your Mom or Grandmother?

    What’s health care worth? I’ve had two major operations in the past 14 months in order to be able to move, and it didn’t bankrupt me.

    Kids in school? What’s that worth to you?

    All gone or severely degraded by Trump or Cruz. So open your eyes, take a deep breath, and join the real world. The guys who want to drown government in a bathtub? They aren’t kidding, not at all. And when it’s gone, you will be sorry.

  316. 316
    J R in WV says:

    @Ruckus: I was an ET briefly, and then hatched into a Bosun’s Mate one day when I got back from leave… but I did get across 400V once, burnt my arm where it hit the circuit that was supposed to be powered off. Bruised the back of my head where I hit the bulkhead when I landed. Ouch.

    I would rather handle heavy cargo – like torpedoes!

  317. 317
    Mike R says:

    @J R in WV:

    All gone or severely degraded by Trump or Cruz. So open your eyes, take a deep breath, and join the real world. The guys who want to drown government in a bathtub? They aren’t kidding, not at all. And when it’s gone, you will be sorry.

    Things aren’t perfect, but a Trump, Cruz or any republican win and the whole country is Kansas and Wisconsin.

  318. 318
    patroclus says:

    @Jade: Why do you hope that raising the minimum wage fails by one vote? Why do you hope that the immigration bill fails by one vote? Why do you hope that the re-authorization of the Voting Rights Act fails by one vote? Why do you hope that the Employment Non-Discrimination Act fails by one vote? Why do you hope that the climate change bill fails by one vote?

  319. 319
    catclub says:

    @Monala: My taxes go up by $13K under Sanders, but I (and my employer) are paying $16k
    for health insurance. If that goes away, it is still a win. Sanders tax plan is different in that he has proposed programs and says how much taxes will
    increase for those programs (if they are passed, obviously). The other tax plans are more thrown out there as ‘this is my tax plan’ with no
    attached changes in programs. I am not even a Bernie fan but this article/calculator is implicitly slanted against him.

  320. 320
    jl says:

    @Monala: @catclub:

    catclub is correct. The tax calculator does not include changes in value of government benefits, particularly changes in private health insurance costs. And it makes some strong assumptions about pass through effects on wages of changes in corporate tax rates, and assumes those occur immediately. You have to make all those adjustments yourself. So, you need to make sure you are including all government benefits of Sanders program (such as expanded sick leave, and maternity and paternity leave) and giving them appropriate value for your case.

    Edit: and even though I am not particularly a Hillary Clinton fan, this goes for her too. The calculator makes her look much more like candidate promising just status quo than she really is. And of course, for GOPers, it neglects reduction in government services, unless you believe their repeats of failed supply side tax reduction Magicks and Miracles that have never materialized before.

  321. 321
    Ruckus says:

    @J R in WV:
    Aww man it was fun working on live circuits under way. Or on wind anemometers on the yardarms, 75 feet off the deck, or manning forward refueling in the North Atlantic, in winter (ship to ship communications), or while fore and aft refueling and taking munitions and stores midships and they call for the helicopter crews, all of whom are working on those other gangs or ………
    I bet we all have stories. Funny how they stay with you.

  322. 322
    John D says:

    @catclub:

    I am not even a Bernie fan but this article/calculator is implicitly slanted against him.

    This trend towards selective reading comprehension in this primary season has to stop.

    The calculator purports to answer the question “But what do their plans mean for your federal tax liability?”. Full stop. It’s really, really clear about this. Claiming an implicit bias because it doesn’t account for a savings elsewhere, even though that savings is not shared by many people, is factually incorrect. Stop that.

    ETA: @jl: Same advice.

  323. 323
    jl says:

    @John D: We are talking about how people may misinterpret the calculator.

  324. 324
    Morzer says:

    Q: How many Hillbots does it take to screw in a light-bulb?

    A: REDACTED.

  325. 325
    Monala says:

    @J R in WV: Oh trust me, I don’t want Trump or Cruz anywhere near the WH. I know taxes keep our country functioning, and I don’t have a problem with mine going up. My issue is that the extent they would need to go up to implement Sanders’ plan would impoverish my family, and probably a lot of other people’s, even considering the benefits we’d get from it. It would take decades to rightside our economy and make it pay off for most people. And surprise, surprise, even Sanders’ supporters aren’t willing to make that sacrifice.

  326. 326
    John D says:

    @jl: And that is why I am calling out “selective reading comprehension”. I’m tired of coddling idiots.

    “But what do their plans mean for your federal tax liability?” is its own paragraph set off by whitespace right after the lede. If people can’t be bothered to read the article, and just want to go off half-cocked, fine. My response to that will continue to be along these lines.

  327. 327
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    @Monala:

    You’re now an enemy of the Revolution for insufficiently clapping hard.

  328. 328
    Monala says:

    @catclub: My family’s insurance is also probably about $16,000, but we are only paying $3,000 of that out of pocket. Our taxes would go up about $10,000. How likely is it that the companies my husband and I work for going to give us raises of that extra $13,000? If they do, then great, we’ll come out ahead. But again, how likely is it?

    And what about seniors, already on Medicare? They’re going to be paying a lot more in taxes, too. Are their SS benefits going to go up proportionately?

  329. 329
    catclub says:

    @John D: Which is more expensive, a $45k Mercedes or a $23k Kia?

    In two years you can sell the Mercedes for $40k or the Kia for $8k. But you are right, the Mercedes is more expensive.

  330. 330
    John D says:

    @catclub: And?

    I have no idea what that analogy is supposed to represent.

  331. 331
    Monala says:

    @John D: I’m guessing catclub means that Sanders’ plans cost a lot more in the short run, but pay off in the long run.

    My response is, that may be true, but people will suffer greatly in the short run to get there. And I highly doubt most Americans will be willing, given that even Sanders’ supporters aren’t willing to have their taxes go up that much.

  332. 332
    catclub says:

    @Monala:

    But again, how likely is it?

    IF the Sanders bill passes, AND everyone knows that your employer is getting a cut in expenses of $13k, I would say the chances are pretty good.

  333. 333
    John D says:

    @Monala: OK? But why did he respond to *me*?

    My complaint is that the calculator is what it is. It purports to show you what the various plans will do to your federal tax liability. That’s all. I took issue with catclub’s claim that it was biased against Sanders because it didn’t account for other stuff.

    It’s not DESIGNED to account for other stuff. It doesn’t CLAIM to account for other stuff. It’s like bitching at an apple for not being an orange.

  334. 334
    NR says:

    @John D: There is such a thing as lying by omission. That calculator is a perfect example of it.

  335. 335
    Brachiator says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    At least Corbyn knows how to use a photocopier.

    Yeah, but can he screw in a light bulb?

  336. 336
    John D says:

    @catclub:

    IF the Sanders bill passes, AND everyone knows that your employer is getting a cut in expenses of $13k, I would say the chances are pretty good.

    You are making two assumptions here that are not necessarily true, and are, in fact, likely completely false.

    The first is that “everyone knows” how much your employer is saving. Cost on insurance plans varies WILDLY between insurers and employers and even year to year. Perhaps the ACA has smoothed this out some, but even a massive smoothing would leave high variance year-to-year from my last experience with this (2011-2012). *You* may know how much your employer pays (though unless you work directly with it, you likely do not) for your ESI. Most do not. Most know only how much is taken out of their paycheck.

    The second is that a savings to the employer is passed along to the employee at all, much less 100%. We’ve had lots and lots of tax cuts to businesses over the last few decades. And yet, even today “wage stagnation” is a real thing, in the news and everything. Perhaps you’ve heard of it?

  337. 337
    John D says:

    @NR: No, it isn’t.

    “But what do their plans mean for your federal tax liability?” is RIGHT THERE. It is its own paragraph and everything. You don’t get to not read the accompanying text and then complain about lies of omission.

  338. 338
    jl says:

    @John D: ‘federal tax liability’ includes individual income taxes, payroll taxes, federal excise taxes and corporate taxes, with some strong assumptions on wage and compensaton pass throughs (Edit: at least in the short run and in this type of macroeconomy) and equilibrium relationships between the different taxes.

    I’m not all that sure that such an estimate is easy to interpret, and I wouldn’t call someone an idiot who may be misinterpreting the results. If that makes me an idiot in your eyes, that is fine with me.

  339. 339
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @John D:

    And that is why I am calling out “selective reading comprehension”. I’m tired of coddling idiots.

    You’re probably also getting an idea of what things were like for Sisyphus.

  340. 340
    John D says:

    @jl: And yet, this is on the exact same page as the calculator:

    Update on why rates are higher than you think: We’ve been getting a lot of questions about why your current effective tax rate is so high. Here’s a note from Tax Policy Center director Len Burman that explains why this is happening:

    You might be surprised at how much taxes you’re paying under current law. We’re including payroll taxes, excise taxes, and corporate income taxes as well as individual income taxes. Most working people actually pay more in payroll tax than income tax. And they pay much more if you include the employer’s portion of the tax. Most economists think employers pass their share of the tax on to workers in the form of lower wages.

    Update, plus a FAQ section: To calculate the tax rate, we originally used adjusted gross income (AGI), but we decided to switch over to expanded cash income (ECI), because this measure includes income that is not subject to income tax, like health insurance premiums paid by employers. This allows the calculator to provide a more accurate view of your tax rate. For a longer explanation, read this Q&A.

    If you follow the helpfully colored link to the Q&A they lay out their assumptions, and what the model entails.

    They HELPFULLY INCLUDE answers like

    Q: This model doesn’t show savings from universal health care and lower interest rates on education loans. What gives?

    RW: The Tax Policy Center’s model does not include spending programs and thus can only show the effects of tax changes. The model does not indicate the effects of changes in government spending that reduce what households have to pay for health insurance or other consumption.

    This is why I get irritated with the claims about lies of omission or bias. They already answered these charges and people REFUSE TO FUCKING READ.

  341. 341
    David 🍁Canadian Anchor Baby🍁 Koch says:

    unemployment claims have dropped to match their lowest level in 42 years.

    This is great news for McCain!

  342. 342
    dr. bloor says:

    @jl: The real problem with the calculator is that I’d bet fewer than 10% of the people using it know what to plug into the income box. A big chunk of taxpayers can barely differentiate between gross income and AGI; asking them to plug in their ECI is a fool’s errand.

  343. 343
    Karen Weisz says:

    Is anyone else fed up with campaign phone calls and visits? I’m in Maryland and oddly no Bernie or Hillary but our local races for congress and senate have been known to call me and tell them know they have my vote then call me a half hour later for the same thing. They’re calling me to see if I got an absentee ballot though I’m planning to vote on site, hoping I can fit my rollator there.

  344. 344
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Brachiator:

    Dude. Not throw away their shot. You may need to listen to the cast album a few dozen more times.

  345. 345
    DCF says:

    @Morzer:

    Question: How many HRC advisors does it take to screw in a light bulb?
    Answer: I don’t know…what do the polls say?

    Speaking of polls: Bill O’Reilly Refuses to Believe Fox’s Own Poll Showing Sanders Beating All GOPers
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiKPKGENLww

    (FYI – April polls vis-a-vis the general election have, to date, been accurate about two-thirds of the time)

  346. 346
    Brachiator says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Dude. Not throw away their shot. You may need to listen to the cast album a few dozen more times.

    And I have to work part of this weekend, and won’t be able to get back to it. I am still holding off on Act II until I have a good chunk of time to listen to the show.

  347. 347
    different-church-lady says:

    @DCF: Question: How many BS advisors does it take to screw in a light bulb?
    Answer: We take the lightbulb out. What replaces it is not our problem.

  348. 348
    different-church-lady says:

    Well, shit is broken.

    Here’s the problem: some shit is broken. And some shit is not broken.

    Fixing shit that isn’t broken is frequently a bad idea.

  349. 349
    different-church-lady says:

    @WarMunchkin:

    Obama was once part of team screaming quietly-and-convincingly-talking lefty at some point in all his life

  350. 350
    different-church-lady says:

    @starscream:

    but now I’m convinced that Sanders with his hypocritical purity tests couldn’t put together a functioning executive branch

    That’s why the purity tests would stop the moment he started naming cabinet members.

  351. 351
    different-church-lady says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I said it months ago and I’ll say it again: Sanders is like Trump in that he plays the politics of resentment.

  352. 352
    different-church-lady says:

    @cleek:

    there are several million Iraqis who would probably happily strangle you in exchange for the privilege of being able to live in such destruction.

    [STANDING OVATION]

  353. 353
    different-church-lady says:

    @Jade: You mad, Bro?

  354. 354
    Kropadope says:

    @MazeDancer:

    Paul Krugman in his column and Howard Fineman, last night, on Tweety’s post-debate gab fest both suggested the same thing: Bernie is misleading his supporters about the chances of his winning the nomination to keep the contributions flowing.

    And Krugman is misleading his readers about Bernie trying to get superdelegates to override the will of the voters. So, what’s your point?

  355. 355
    Kropadope says:

    @NR:

    Whereas Hillary supporters are all sunny and positive people who never have an unkind word to say about anyone.

    So what if basically every thread has about 100 posts with questionably sourced attacks (not criticisms, attacks) on Bernie and his supporters? That’s their right as Americans.

    Point out that what they’re saying is false, irrelevant, off topic, or dickish; though; and you’re a whiner. Insult em back and you’re a Bernie bro and an exemplar of why they need 100 off topic posts on every thread hating on Bernie.

  356. 356
    david10 says:

    The evidence is there that Bernies socialist/egalitarian principles went like smoke at the first puff of wind. Estimates of cost of Rome trip-plane 17,000 dollars an hour. Total cost of trip in excess of $500,000 possibly way in excess. This from the guy who was so vocal about flying economy at the start of his campaign. The only reason he is a socialist is he never had access to huge amounts of cash before.

  357. 357
    DCF says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Still the neoliberal/corporatist/interventionist-supporting Third Way ‘Democrat’, DCL…to answer your last post:

    1) The bulb will be an LED; and
    2) It will be powered by wind/solar/geothermal energy sources – rather than oil/gas reserves and fracking operations.

    Incrementalism is not the future – particularly as regards environmental climate change. ‘Third Way’ politics is dying, and using the word ‘pragmatism’ to rationalize ineffectual policy proposals is cowardice – and worse.

  358. 358
    No One You Know says:

    @geg6: I think it has something to do with a lack of familiarity with Mark Twain’s aphorism: “I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.” Clearly this is fixed by explaining it again, loudly, with pointing fingers, and even less detail than the first time. Details are for little people, not Grand Strategists.

  359. 359
    No One You Know says:

    @Lynn Dee: Yes, I liked that idea. It’s as if he thinks the ability to learn, or change her mind, means she lacks integrity. I think learning and changing one’s mind is integrity in motion.

  360. 360
    No One You Know says:

    @Brachiator: YES.

    Can’t think of a house sigil for Clinton. Maybe a pen?

Comments are closed.