The Annual Banging of the Likud War Drums

AIPAC was today so I have worse than normal levels of irritation with my fellow Democrats, who seem to think it was no big deal for HRC to go there and crap all over Obama, equate divestment with anti-Semitism, pretend that it is Israel who lacks a partner in peace and not the Palestinians, and so on. Basically, everyhting that makes me not want to vote for Hillary was on display today. So help me, she is going to have us in a new war in the Middle East midway through her term.

That, on the other hand, is better than Trump who will stumble his way into a war in the first 18 months or Cruz, who I just watched, who quite possibly could launch nukes in the first 100 days.

I find Ted Cruz fascinating and repulsive at the same time. He’s like an infected swollen boil that I can’t stop trying to pop. I honestly have never met anyone who creates such an instantaneous repellent feeling. Not even Eric Cantor.

I think I finally understand what it feels like to be trypophobic.






297 replies
  1. 1
    sherifffruitfly says:

    anything for GO TEAM

  2. 2
    PsiFighter37 says:

    I think it’s telling that everyone who has ever worked with Ted Cruz has basically hated him at first sight.

    I wonder how many shots Lindsay had to down before making his endorsement of Tailgunner Ted.

  3. 3
    Felonius Monk says:

    But John, Trump promised them a Jewish baby and soon.

  4. 4
    mclaren says:

    So help me, she is going to have us in a new war in the Middle East midway through her term.

    Hillary will have us in five different new wars before lunch on her inauguration day.

    But that’s the price we have to pay for not voting for an insane evil thug with a opossum on his head, so I’m resigned to it.

  5. 5
    p.a. says:

    Well here’s some light in the darkness.

  6. 6
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    rationalization of our relationship with Israel would be the one thing that would tempt me to Feel The Bern

  7. 7
    LAO says:

    As an American jew (who spent a summer interning for AIPAC when I was a teenager), I am wholly repulsed by both the pandering to AIPAC and AIPAC itself. I didn’t Cheney when he was VP and I certainly don’t like him as prime minister of Israel.

  8. 8
    Emma says:

    @mclaren: if that’s not foolish hyperbole, I’ll take that bet.

  9. 9
    Tom Levenson says:

    You know what I remember about the (first) Clinton administration? All those wars.

    Wait…they didn’t happen? Despite those blood-stained wretches from Arkansas? No American boots on the ground in a ‘stan or an Emirate?

    There was the air war in Kosovo. There was the too-long delayed peace negotiated in that left-over from the Bush administration in Bosnia. There was the folly in Somalia, also something of a gift from lame-duck Bushery. But there was as well a reticence to drop the 82nd Airborne anywhere and everywhere.

    Yes, Hillary is on the hawkish side of the Democratic Party. Yes she said what just about every Democratic politician says at the hateful parody of Jewish opinion that is AIPAC (including, more or less, our curren POTUS). But she is simply ridiculously less likely to send other folks kids into harm’s way than the other guys, and ISTM nearly as likely to do so as our blog-leader suggests.

    ETA: One thing people forget about the Clinton team. They didn’t intervene in Rwanda. And that still bothers a lot of them. That’s not an argument for any other intervention, but it does help explain some of the more activist impulses of some in Hillary’s circle. See e.g., Samantha Powers. The horror of the Bosnian war is also a factor.

  10. 10
    Betty Cracker says:

    Haven’t had time to read or watch HRC’s APAIC speech, but the accounts of it sure are at wild variance. Looking forward to seeing who was full of shit!

  11. 11
    Dolly Llama says:

    You know what will doom Trump? It’s not his policies (sic) or even his day to day behavior. It will be because we — and by “we” I mean us here, Trump fans, the politically uninterested, basically the whole electorate — will be Really. Fucking. Sick. of hearing about this guy. He’s wearing it out even now. The God damn loons that go out and hold signs for the fucking guy are even now starting to get sick of him being on their God damn teevee all the time, and by November? Shit, no one will want to hear another fucking Trump anything. The crazy-ass short-attention span culture will doom The Donald in just the same way it brought him to front-runnerhood.

  12. 12
    Misterpuff says:

    @Felonius Monk: At least, Trump’s Grandkid will have a place to go when Grandad ruins America for the rest of us.

  13. 13
    Applejinx says:

    I feel ya, this is the problem I have with Haim Saban being such a powerbroker.

    I felt the bern about as hard as I could, and all the states haven’t voted in their primaries yet. There are many factors to electability, and this is one. Hils needs to chils about this issue: it’s dangerous to her, we’re not going to stand for Bush-like justice league adventures. She could lose the election on the back of this sort of thing.

  14. 14
    Mary G says:

    I was struck by how aggressively Hillz parroted the neoconservative bible. Either she’s pandering or a true believer and I don’t know what is worse. Sad!

    But Trump is worse. We’ll just have to hold her feet to the fire. Maybe she’s trying to differentiate herself from Obama.

  15. 15
    Baud says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Looking forward to seeing who was full of shit!

    All of them, Katie.

  16. 16
    SteveinSC says:

    If Hillary had a little more time she would have tried to suck every dick in the AIPAC auditorium. She sets a new, low standard for pandering.

  17. 17
    dr. bloor says:

    @Betty Cracker: You’re doing God’s work. I’ll wait here in the boat while you don your hazmat suit.

  18. 18
    Bex says:

    @Tom Levenson: Thank you for this.

  19. 19
    dr. bloor says:

    @Dolly Llama: This. His campaign most closely resembles The Truman Show at this point.

  20. 20
    guachi says:

    I notice that the one Jewish candidate decided not to go. Wish Clinton had decided she had “other committments”.

  21. 21
    John Cole says:

    @Tom Levenson: I think this comment is nonsense. Whenever something bad happened during the Clinton Presidency, we’re told that it isn’t Hillary’s fault. She had nothing to do with NAFTA, we are repeatedly told, the crime bill was her husbands, it’s not her fault that we futzed with welfare or DOMA or Don’t Ask Don’t Tell.

    But when you point to something good that happened, why, we’re gonna get some of that when she’s President.

    So which is it?

  22. 22
    Big Ol Hound says:

    Why any democratic candidate for U.S. Presidency would pander to the Israelis is beyond me. Let the Jewish billionaires who fund conservative PACs provide the aid their homeland so desperately needs to survive instead of the taxpayers so at least we are not providing Bibi with funds to undermine us.

  23. 23
    John Cole says:

    @Betty Cracker: It’s linked right there in this piece!

  24. 24

    Saber rattling in service of Israel is really a deal killer.

    Syria’s destabilization was meant to help their agenda too.

  25. 25
    goblue72 says:

    @Betty Cracker: Most of the mainstream media coverage I am seeing is reporting Clinton’s speech as being the right of Obama and taking a hard-line pro-Israel stance in which she can’t hug Bibi hard enough.

  26. 26
  27. 27
    goblue72 says:

    @guachi: The Jewish candidate’s position on AIPAC doesn’t count because he yells a lot, is from Vermont and demands free college.

  28. 28
    Baud says:

    @guachi: Seems like Sanders has an opportunity to distinguish himself.

    @John Cole:

    Wait, you’ve gotten everyone to stop attributing Bill’s decisions to Hillary.

  29. 29
    Betty Cracker says:

    @John Cole: I haven’t had time to read it yet (too busy working and reading this blog!).

  30. 30
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: does seem more of a piece with his general indifference to international relations than a principled stand

  31. 31
    Baud says:

    Remember when people bothered to find quotes to take out of context. Good times.

  32. 32
    Bob In Portland says:

    How come the room wasn’t cleared of cameras and recorders?

  33. 33
    goblue72 says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Actually it does. All the news outlets have been reporting it as intentional and not some schedule conflict.

    And the speech he gave today was quite clear on his opposition to the Occupation and to supporting BOTH sides int the conflict – https://news.vice.com/article/bernie-sanders-foreign-policy-israel-palestine-aipac

  34. 34
    eemom says:

    @Tom Levenson:

    Yes, Hillary is on the hawkish side of the Democratic Party. Yes she said what just about every Democratic politician says at the hateful parody of Jewish opinion that is AIPAC (including, more or less, our curren POTUS). But she is simply ridiculously less likely to send other folks kids into harm’s way than the other guys, and ISTM nearly as likely to do so as our blog-leader suggests.

    @Bex:

    Thank you for this.

    Seconded. I luvz Cole to death, really I do, but there are certain issue-triggers to which he always responds in a knee jerk fashion that I find inexplicable, unless it’s some kind of residual guilt over being a republican all those years. Israel is definitely one of them.

    I haven’t heard or read the speech either, and I would particularly like to know what she said that deserves the accusation that she “crap[ped] all over Obama”.

  35. 35
    BBA says:

    To hardliners on both sides, the Green Line is meaningless and Tel Aviv is a settlement.

    Have it their way. It’s still a moral imperative to dismantle the settlements. I have no idea how to dismantle a city of over 3 million people, but compared to hashing out a two-state solution it should be dead simple.

  36. 36
    Baud says:

    @goblue72: Do you have a link to his whole speech?

  37. 37
    goblue72 says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Actually, he gave a speech today on Israel-Palestine. Its the one he would have given remotely to AIPAC if they would have let him. And its strongly anti-settlement – http://www.usatoday.com/story/...../82087106/

    But please, all y’alls just keep bending over backward trying to pretend Clinton didn’t just take a giant shit all over Palestinians.

  38. 38
    dedc79 says:

    @LanceThruster:

    Saber rattling in service of Israel is really a deal killer.

    Syria’s destabilization was meant to help their agenda too.

    Yeah, Syria’s destabilization had nothing to do with….you know….Syrians.

  39. 39
    Bob In Portland says:

    @John Cole: John, come to Sanders. I am your father now.

  40. 40
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @goblue72: did you once try not being an asshole, and it didn’t work?

    cause this isn’t working either

  41. 41
    goblue72 says:

    @Baud: I am not seeing transcript online yet. Probably because its either in progress or just finished. I think he’s having a rally in Utah right now (or just wrapped one up.) My links were fairly real-time recent news posts.

  42. 42
    Bob In Portland says:

    @goblue72: Yes.

  43. 43
    goblue72 says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I can’t understand you with your foot in your mouth.

  44. 44
    dedc79 says:

    @eemom:

    there are certain issue-triggers to which he always responds in a knee jerk fashion that I find inexplicable, unless it’s some kind of residual guilt over being a republican all those years. Israel is definitely one of them.

    Cole and Andrew Sullivan (back in the Dish days) both.

  45. 45
    Tom Levenson says:

    @John Cole: a. I’ve never said that Hillary doesn’t bear responsibility for prior fuck ups.

    B. You say she’s going to take us to war in a couple of years. I say, on what evidence. You have three sources of data: her husband’s administration, in which she was an important informal advisor; her time in the Senate, and her time as Secretary of State. I talked about the first above. In the second, the voted for the Iraq war resolution, as did too many others,including John Kerry, who is turning out OK. Did she learn something from that? I think she did. YMMV.

    As SecState, she’s got a mixed record, no doubt about it. For the Libyan intervention, (though not for US boots on the ground). Similarly fuzzy on Syria — arguing for more, but not,apparently American ground forces.

    The most important thing, IMHO, and that for which a lot of the hawkishness at AIPAC today is cover, is her strong support for the Iran deal, which does more for Middle East peace than any other single diplomatic transaction short ot a ratified two state solution.

    That’s a huge qualitative war-and-peace distinction between her and any GOPster. That, to me, was the big takeaway from today’s speech.

    I could easily be wrong. Hillary could bomb Damascus on day one and have troops hitting the beach within the week. I’d bet against, but I’m just some blogger.

    But it is useful, I think, to mark one’s hyperbole to market, and the totality of Clinton’s near quarter of a center at or near the center of power sure doesn’t look to me to be one of those at the Group W bench: kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Etc.

  46. 46
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @goblue72: good god, Sparky, are we gonna make a list of things you don’t understand? The internet may not be big enough

  47. 47
    gene108 says:

    And I will send a delegation from the Pentagon and the joint chiefs to Israel for early consultations. Let’s also expand our collaboration beyond security. Together, we can build an even more vibrant culture of innovation that tightens the links between Silicon Valley and Israeli tech companies and entrepreneurs.

    From what I have heard about Israeli companies, they are very aggressive and will grab your tech and undercut you in the process.

    I would be worried about opening up too much to Israel in this regard.

  48. 48
    Weaselone says:

    @goblue72:
    Too bad Colonel Sanders didn’t have the guts to show up and give it in person.

  49. 49
    goblue72 says:

    @BBA: Washington, D.C. is a settlement -shit, the entire United States is a settlement. At a certain point, the internationally community accepts – arbitrarily – that certain situations just are and have achieved legitimacy. Its pretty clear at this point the Tel Aviv and certain borders of Israel, just are. The Occupied Territories are in another category.

  50. 50
    tsquared2001 says:

    @Emma: Can I get in on that action? March Madness is killing me financially and I could use the cash.

  51. 51
    goblue72 says:

    @Tom Levenson:

    quarter of a center at or near the center of power sure doesn’t look to me to be one of those at the Group W bench: kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Etc.

    That bar is so low a flea couldn’t limbo under it.

  52. 52
    WarMunchkin says:

    @Tom Levenson: Samantha Power is a Hillary “circle” member? Man, I am behind the times. I remember back in the day when she called Hillary a monster and resigned from Obama’s campaign (obviously temporarily).

  53. 53
    Ripley says:

    John, come to Sanders. I am your father now.

    *Cuts off Cole’s hand with lightsaber*

  54. 54
    goblue72 says:

    @Weaselone: Bwahaahahhaa.

    Man, its pretty clear that Clinton just stepped in it. But please, keep pretending otherwise.

  55. 55
    Peale says:

    @dedc79: someone released the jihadis from Syrian prisons. I don’t know who.

  56. 56
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    Well said, JC.

    I listened to a bit of HRC’s comments on C-Span radio on the way home. The pandering was so over the top that it was flabbergasting. I understand that all presidential candidates, and all Presidents, have to pander. It goes with the territory. But I hope she won’t be a prisoner to her pandering.

    It makes me wonder (a little) if Hillary has become too sclerotic in her thinking when it comes to Israel and other seemingly intractable international trouble spots. I hope not…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  57. 57
    SteveinSC says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: My my, the exquisite prigs are still around at BJ. Pick up a rock and lo and behold. That’s a good litttle snotty “Sparky” ad hominem, er, Jim-bo.

  58. 58
    dr. bloor says:

    @Ripley: What’s the sound of one hand tweeting, anyway?

  59. 59
    Peale says:

    Not unexpected. Disappointing, but not unexpected. The rift with Bibi just has to heal. It brings us so much and they ask for so little.

  60. 60
    Ripley says:

    @dr. bloor: Jill Stein re-tweets.

  61. 61
    gene108 says:

    @Tom Levenson:

    You forgot Clinton’s “ruthless” enforcement of the No Fly Zone in Iraq, which seemed to upset a lot of liberals in the 1990’s and probably what has earned Bill his reputation as a “war hawk”.

  62. 62
    PhoenixRising says:

    @Tom Levenson:

    the hawkishness at AIPAC today is cover, is her strong support for the Iran deal,

    The hawkish tone, yes, agreed. She’s talking tough to assure our friend and ally/51st state that we made the Iran deal with their safety first in mind, which is appropriate and true; Cole is just wrong about the saber-rattling.

    There is no excusing or explaining the implication that American Jews leading a movement to divest from an apartheid state are anti-Semites. This is a (mostly campus) internecine conflict that it’s crazy to stick a paw into. She’s going to get burned and deservedly. That view–BDS is anti-Jew or anti-Israel, not anti-Zionist–is common among folks in her generation but just plain wrong.

    As I understand her situation, Chelsea & her Jewish husband may raise Bill & Hill’s grandchildren in the faith. Nana gonna have to up her game if she doesn’t want to have her golden years punctuated with the sound of doors being slammed. But the personal level is all this matters on…US policy WRT settlements and investment isn’t changing no matter who’s POTUS.

  63. 63
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @SteveinSC: the words are all English, yet they mean nothing….

    Nice try, Bonzo

  64. 64
    JPL says:

    I’m hoping that Tom writes about Trump’s interview with the Post today. I want pictures and lots of pictures.
    Hopefully Hillary mops the floor with Trump’s hair and we can bitch about her decisions next year. It’s much better than the alternative.
    link to the post interview

  65. 65
    tsquared2001 says:

    @John Cole: Who the fuck you been hanging out with? I NEVER hear Mrs. Clinton supporters do any of that shit you are talking about.

  66. 66
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @John Cole: Yeah, Tom’s right about some of that, but there were a LOT of things Clinton did that have hurt us long term, and Hilary was on board.

    As far as I’m concerned this

    That, on the other hand, is better than Trump

    sums up the main reason I will end up filling in the bubble for Clinton in November.

    She has always been a closet neocon. She has always catered to the AIPAC crowd, the Wall Street and Corporate Overlord crowd, and even the Christian Conservative Crowd (remember that she was an active participant in the secretive “Family” in DC?) She might have had a experimental period of “progressivism” during her college years, but at her heart, Hilary is a pragmatist conservative politician, as was Bill.

    My Bern-kids keep asking why the hell she has done so well in the primaries so far, especially with Blacks in the South. I’ve been trying to explain how historically, both she and Bill’s long relationship with the DLC and the very conservative aspects of Southern Democrats make them more palatable to those states. We’ve seen a lot of “liberal white flight” from Southern states, leaving behind an older, more conservative and black Democratic party there. Also, it’s important to note that many Blacks in the South are active in their churches, which trend conservative in their teachings, and are still struggling with the whole “gay marriage” thing–which, as I perceive it, Hilary just recently came around to supporting.

    This is why I have such a hard time supporting her in the Primaries.

  67. 67
    Baud says:

    OT: Via GOS

    Well, this is new: CNN is holding a town hall event with both Democratic and Republican presidential candidates appearing and fielding questions.

    Anderson Cooper and Wolf Blitzer will host a three-hour event with both parties’ candidates from 8 p.m. to 11 p.m. ET on Monday.

    Four of the five candidates — former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Ohio Gov. John Kasich, Texas Sen. Ted Cruz and Donald Trump — will be interviewed in the CNN Election Center in Washington, and Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders will be interviewed remotely from the campaign trail.

  68. 68
    Tom Levenson says:

    @WarMunchkin: should have said — a member of the Obama diplomatic/national security team w. Hillary, and someone on the interventionist side re Libya.

  69. 69
    tsquared2001 says:

    Unfortunately, this is NOT an open thread but I must give out some haterade to whatever front pager who recommended Happy Valley.

    As I dragged my tired ass to bed at 4:00 AM on Sunday morning after binge watching seasons 1 & 2, I threw my hands in the air and cursed your very existence.

  70. 70
    Baud says:

    More OT. MoJo

    The FBI has said for weeks that it needed Apple’s help to unlock the iPhone belonging to San Bernardino shooter Syed Farook. Apple—and only Apple—could write the code needed to open up the phone and get the information inside, said agency officials in interviews, congressional hearings, and court documents. Now that story has changed.

    “On Sunday, March 20, 2016, an outside party demonstrated to the FBI a possible method for unlocking Farook’s iPhone,” the agency wrote in a court document submitted on Monday. “If the method is viable, it should eliminate the need for the assistance from Apple Inc.” The court agreed to the government’s request to cancel the first hearing in the case, which was set to take place on Tuesday, while the FBI tests the new method.

  71. 71
    Tom Levenson says:

    @JPL: I’ll try, but I’m only half way through the transcript and I’m losing a lot office to dragging my jaw off the floor. Special stuff.

  72. 72
    TheMightyTrowel says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: This whole ‘Af-Am people are too conservative and pulling the party right instead of voting for the thing white liberals want’ thing sounds really really fucking familiar. I mean, we COULD go down that road again, or we could look at the legitimate differences (few though they may be in real person reality) between the candidates and think that people assess politicians on a number of scales other than a single linear left-right axis with church at one end and neck-beard-anarchist-hipster at the other.

    Is a little nuance too much to ask for?

  73. 73
    raven says:

    @tsquared2001: Every thread is an open thread.

  74. 74
    gene108 says:

    @John Cole:

    I think this comment is nonsense. Whenever something bad happened during the Clinton Presidency, we’re told that it isn’t Hillary’s fault. She had nothing to do with NAFTA, we are repeatedly told, the crime bill was her husbands, it’s not her fault that we futzed with welfare or DOMA or Don’t Ask Don’t Tell.

    The crime bill was an actual attempt to properly respond to 30 years of increasing crime rates. No one anticipated crime rates would “just decide” to decline to record lows over the next 20 years. I remember people predicting major cities were going into the dustbin of history, as crime rates soared and people continued to leave to the suburbs. The urban renewal, in places like NYC, was a big deal that was not anticipated or guaranteed to succeed.

    Don’t Ask Don’t Tell was the best compromise Bill got out of fellow Democrat, Sen. Sam Nunn. The issue was way to the Left of where many Congressional Dems were at, in 1993.

  75. 75
    Baud says:

    @gene108:

    Yeah, I’m embarrassed when people cite DADT as a negative for Clinton. He was clearly the good guy there.

  76. 76
    Bob In Portland says:

    @goblue72: Sanders was in Washington State yesterday. Why fly across the country to be told you’re a self-hating Jew?

  77. 77
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @TheMightyTrowel: My comment, thus my thought, was not complete for some reason.

    The point I’m making is that I believe she has done well in the South because those folks in the Southern states feel more comfortable with her positions and their feelings of familiarity with her due to she and Bill’s having been strong southern Democrats for so very long. Bernie is from a part of the country they don’t particularly relate to, socially or politically.

    People tend to reflect their roots, and as such, I think there might be a lot of Blacks who will Support Sanders in different geographic regions of the country.

  78. 78
    BBA says:

    @goblue72: Your “international community” doesn’t include Likud or Hamas. That’s my point.

  79. 79
    JPL says:

    @Tom Levenson: I sent it to a friend who put it in a word document to print. I did mention that it would be a waste of good paper From you though, I expect art.

  80. 80
    Mike in NC says:

    @gene108: They say that Israel employs more spies in this country than China or Russia.

  81. 81
    Linda Featheringill says:

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    Interesting that you used the word “sclerotic.” That thought has crossed my mind, but I’m not a doctor and don’t even play one on tv.

  82. 82
    Weaselone says:

    @goblue72:

    How about you tell me exactly how the differences in Hillary’s and Bernie’s rhetoric would actually translate into policy, because as far as I can tell, regardless of whatever they are saying there would be no concrete difference? Israel would still get billions in military aide each year. Settlements would continue to be built. We would still have Israel’s back in the UN. The peace process would still remain at a standstill because neither the Israeli or Palestinian leadership are negotiating in good faith. The Palestinian people will continue to suffer and Israeli citizens will continue to be killed in terrorist attacks.

  83. 83
    tsquared2001 says:

    @raven: I try to never break the house rules but good to know.

  84. 84
    Marc says:

    @Tom Levenson: She was a strong advocate of intervention in Libya. I’d bet cash on her intervening there again. She was a strong advocate of intervening in Syria. There is a strong chance she’d go there. She’s threatened bombing Iran. It’s not a stretch to see her wanting to do so in Iraq for the same reasons as Syria…and quite likely to continue in Afghanistan.

    And that’s before we’ve even seen what new problems crop up, given her preferences for the military.

    Oh – and as for the Clinton administration? Bosnia, Kosovo, Somalia….

  85. 85
  86. 86
    Marc says:

    @Weaselone: I think that Obama has made a difference, and his policies are very different from those of Clinton. It’s no secret that he’s been a real skeptic of the use of force.

  87. 87
    Baud says:

    @tsquared2001: The only rule is that there are no rules.

  88. 88
    raven says:

    @tsquared2001: “Rules, in a knife fight. . .?”

  89. 89
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @gene108:

    The crime bill was an actual attempt to properly respond to 30 years of increasing crime rates.

    Because no one then was talking intelligently about prison reform or reducing recidivism by reducing the length of prison sentences so as not to create people who learn how to do crime better from having been in prison too long.

    And I’m sure no one was talking about drug and alcohol rehabilitation vs. incarceration as a better way to address the crime rate. Or education and job training instead of just punishment as a way to keep offenders from recommitting crimes.

    Or about intervention with at-risk children and teens to deter the criminal behavior all-together.

    No, we had no ideas at all back then Clinton could have explored before he signed a bill making a first time offender an essentially permanent resident of our corrections system.

    OH WAIT, EXECPT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY SOCIOLOGY, CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND SOCIAL WORK PROFESSORS IN COLLEGE IN THE 19-FUCKING-80’S

  90. 90
    Emma says:

    @Bob In Portland: Yes, because nothing screams bravery than dissing people at a distance.

  91. 91
    liberal says:

    @LAO:

    I didn’t Cheney…

    Cheney, verb intransitive

  92. 92
    Technocrat says:

    @gene108:

    Yeah, people forget why the Guardian Angels were a thing.

  93. 93
    Bob In Portland says:

    @SteveinSC: Yeah, smugness broken by self-righteousness is only interrupted by the occasional ad hominem. The regulars can’t help themselves.

  94. 94
    raven says:

    @Bob In Portland: Fuck you Bob.

  95. 95
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    @Tom Levenson: if only Hillary had gone on the record with an up or down vote about whether to invade some foreign place….

    Then we might know whether her militaristic posturing is anything other than pandering

    And, hey if we are going to give Hillary credit for every wise thing that Bill Clinton did, do we also get to blame her for being a serial rapist/sexual harasser?

  96. 96
    Baud says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    I don’t understand the debate on the crime bill. Both Clinton and Sanders supported it. And while I don’t know everything that was in it, it wasn’t just a about increasing prison sentences. The meme of the day was mocking Clinton about midnight basketball as a means to deter crime.

  97. 97
    gene108 says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    but there were a LOT of things Clinton did that have hurt us long term

    I think some things stand out because his successor was the worst President ever.

    A competent President would not have squandered the budget surplus via tax cuts for the rich, maybe have invested a bit more into infrastructure and so on, so we would be in a better place than we were in 2008.

    I feel some of the criticisms of Bill’s policies causing long term damage stand-out because he did not idiot proof the Presidency for Bush, Jr.

  98. 98
    Weaselone says:

    @Marc:
    Except, as you noted above even with Obama’s reluctance to use force we bombed Libya and are bombing portions of Syria and Iraq. These are exactly the places that Hillary urged intervention.

  99. 99
    Betty Cracker says:

    @tsquared2001: Ha! That was me. You’re welcome.

  100. 100
    Baud says:

    @Amaranthine RBG: I have a feeling you’ll do that no matter what.

  101. 101
    liberal says:

    @eemom:
    That’s pretty funny coming from a moral imbecile like yourself who thinks Americans should shut up about Israel/Palestine because of our history with native Americans.

  102. 102
    The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016 says:

    She voted for the Iraq War, so she’ll always be Reagan incarnate for the America First crowd.

  103. 103
    Weaselone says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    Nevermind. The actual provisions of the bill were crap for the most part.

  104. 104
    srv says:

    No, I am not writing John Cole of the Left today.

    As always, it’s good to find a liberal who isn’t a hypocrite.

  105. 105
    p.a. says:

    Our 51st State ™ always instigates the most interesting discussions!

  106. 106
    liberal says:

    @goblue72:

    The Occupied Territories are in another category.

    Wait…you mean, there’s a difference between past crimes and current crimes? Tell it to moral midget eemom.

  107. 107
    Felonius Monk says:

    @Baud:

    Remember when people bothered to find …Good times

    How’s that?

    ETA: BAUD 2016 —For the Good Times

  108. 108
    policomic says:

    John Cole, I’m glad you haven’t lost your ability to be critical. It’s no sin, people!

  109. 109
    Baud says:

    @Felonius Monk: You’ve restored my faith in humanity.

  110. 110
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @Baud: Yes, I know. The BEST things that came out of it were the investments in communities–Community Policing and Midnight Basketball were actually really great for my community. VAWA was also the most awsomist legislation ever passed, in my opinion.

    I just think he tanked by accepting all the Draconian stuff. And even if Bernie voted for it, that shit has harmed us as a nation. And made the prison industry wealthy beyond all measure.

  111. 111
    liberal says:

    @WarMunchkin:
    That’s funny, given that both Hillary and Samantha Power have sucked up to an actual genocidal monster (Henry K).

  112. 112
    NobodySpecial says:

    I don’t much care anymore. A two state solution died twenty years ago. The Palestinians I know here, they’ve all got family back ‘home’ that are gonna get shit on with a big helping hand from whoever runs America. It sucks, and I hate it, but we’ve decided to write off the Palestinians, so they will end up like the Armenians.

    Maybe if we’re lucky a couple centuries down the road, someone will give them a halfassed apology. They’ll probably do it from the newest shopping mall built in New Samaria, though.

  113. 113
    The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016 says:

    @liberal: Which is why we should vote for the Senator from Lockheed-Martin, the bestest friend of Daniel Ortega and Fidel Castro.

  114. 114
    PhoenixRising says:

    @Baud:

    I don’t understand the debate on the crime bill.

    Yeah you do.

    Bill Clinton promised urban Blacks to do something about crime in the cities they couldn’t afford to abandon en masse, as the price of getting their support in the primary. After sewing up the nomination, he acted on that campaign promise.

    And ever since white supremacy fucked up the best shot at reforming criminal justice that could get past Newt Gingrich, there have been liberal Dems with an agenda trying to blame Hillary for white supremacy doing what it does.

    Anyone who argues that Bill Clinton should have pressed for different solutions at the time doesn’t understand political reality in 2 ways: What was possible to get through Congress, and what he actually went to AME churches and promised to do. Which was lock up the dealers who were shooting, robbing and stabbing decent folks and throw away the key.

    Regardless of what sociology professors told us in the 1980s, people who have choices constricted by inherited Jim Crow poverty don’t want drug dealers killing their grandchildren on the stoop, they want those bad kids locked up. With the exception of Michele Alexander, who I’m convinced was arguing in bad faith because she *does* know better, everyone promoting this view is both white and middle-class or rich.

  115. 115
    liberal says:

    @dedc79:
    True. It also had nothing to do with…various Sunni powers like Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc, etc, …

  116. 116
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Baud: I don’t understand the debate on the crime bill. Both Clinton and Sanders supported it.

    Bernie only voted for the good parts.

  117. 117
    Technocrat says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    And I’m sure no one was talking about drug and alcohol rehabilitation vs. incarceration as a better way to address the crime rate. Or education and job training instead of just punishment as a way to keep offenders from recommitting crimes

    Ella, with all due respect, the streets were dangerous back then. I’m not sure how job rehabilitation helps when the bangers are pulling in 4 grand a week from drugs. I knew some of those hard cases, and the idea that if you just get this guy a job he won’t be waving a gun in your face seems rather academic.

    I think you could certainly say that the crime bill fell afoul of the Law of Unintended Consequences, but I don’t see how you could tell people “Well, we’ll start some education programs, and your kids won’t be getting hit by stray gunfire anymore”. The community wanted action.

    Reasonable people can disagree, but as someone who lived in the “hood” for part of the 90’s, I was all for more police on the streets.

    @PhoenixRising:

    ETA: What you said.

  118. 118
    JPL says:

    @liberal: The AIPAC speech doesn’t count because he used a teleprompter ..Real leaders don’t do that.

  119. 119
    Baud says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: I had forgotten that VAWA was part of it.

  120. 120
    Bob In Portland says:

    @goblue72: You know, I remember back when Nancy Reagan was on the frontlines fighting AIDS. Those were the days.

    Remember when Henry Kissinger won the peace prize? CIA feminist Gloria Steinem could be seen on his arm about town. When she wasn’t getting it on with Stanley Pottinger.

    Albright. Nuland.

    Yeah, no surprise why Dearborn went for Bernie. You folks bought her. You own her.

  121. 121
    FlipYrWhig says:

    An important Democrat vocally supporting Israel? I have never heard of such a thing being a unanimous position for 70 consecutive years.

  122. 122
    gene108 says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    I remember people talking about reform, education, etc. as means to reduce recidivism. I personally agree with that track.

    I also remember the Willie Horton ad basically killing Dukakis’ lead over Bush, Sr. because it made Dukakis seem soft on crime.

    I am not sure the political will was there to address criminal activity with a softer touch twenty-two years ago.

    All I am trying to point out is the 1990’s crime bill was not created with the intention of destroying lives. It really did try to address a problem in the best manner that could be managed politically at the time.

    There were a lot of unintended consequences with that bill that have come to light over the last 20 years.

    I also think, thankfully, the pendulum is swinging towards rehabilitation rather than retribution, with regards to the justice system.

  123. 123
    Bob In Portland says:

    @gene108: I am always reassured when BJers explain why the Clintons have voted for some of the worst legislation in the last fifty years.

  124. 124
    tsquared2001 says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: When POTUS floated the Grand Bargain, was Mrs. Obama on board? I sure didn’t hear anything like that but I guess the Clinton Rules were in effect. Equating the spouse with the guy with actual power is ridiculous.

    And, I’ll tell you why black Democrats in the south voted for Mrs. Clinton – because the Democratic Party at the federal level has been a friend to black people and it has fucking NOTHING to do with conservative viewpoints or gays or abortion or the damn DLC. This shit is literally life and death.

    It has to do with Senator Sanders acting like the Obama Coalition doesn’t exist while he chases after white voters who haven’t voted Team Blue in 30+ years.

    It has to do with Senator Sanders supporting a primary challenge to the first black president.

    It has to do with a johnny come lately who acted like he was too good for the Democratic party.

    Run tell that.

  125. 125
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Baud: There were good parts and also bad parts, being that it was an attempt to find common ground between Democrats and Republicans to deal with issues of public policy. I think it was called “the Clinton Administration’s primary method of doing politics” and “the thing Republicans decided to refuse to allow Obama to do because it worked out too well for the Democratic Party.”

  126. 126
    benw says:

    OT: go Jackets!

  127. 127
    JPL says:

    @gene108: It didn’t help Dukakis when asked if he would support the death penalty if his wife was raped and killed. All he had to say is personally I might want to kill him….

  128. 128
  129. 129
    pseudonymous in nc says:

    I think Hillary still believes that there’s a Yitzhak Rabin somewhere in Israeli politics, when that’s simply not true. Israel was almost literally another country twenty years ago — the demographics have changed massively since Rabin’s assassination, along with the facts on the ground. Romantic Labor Zionism is dead. Russian pork-sausage nationalism and varieties of segregationist theocracy are the order of the day.

  130. 130
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @tsquared2001: I can’t believe Michelle Obama cracked down on Chelsea Manning like that!

  131. 131
    Bob In Portland says:

    @Tom Levenson: Somebody get a copy of PNAC. Sure as shootin’ you can find the next place where Hillary leads us to war. I’m thinking some place around Turkmenistan, but maybe another coup in Venezuela, or maybe Africa.

  132. 132
    tsquared2001 says:

    @raven: @Baud: Calvinball in the house!

  133. 133
    Bob In Portland says:

    @tsquared2001: News travels slowly in the south.

  134. 134
    Bob In Portland says:

    @pseudonymous in nc: Why would she think that? It sounds more like another excuse for her war-mongering.

  135. 135
    raven says:

    @Bob In Portland: Say what you mean you racist fuck.

  136. 136
    PhoenixRising says:

    @pseudonymous in nc:

    Hillary still believes that there’s a Yitzhak Rabin somewhere in Israeli politics

    If I wanted to drink my dinner, I’d justify it along those lines. She sounds like she doesn’t quite accept what’s changed in Israel.

    The assassin who killed Rabin really did cut off a road to one possible future.

  137. 137
    Elizabelle says:

    Andy Grove of Intel has died.

  138. 138
    benw says:

    @raven: they’re in the NIT this year, but they played hard through a brutal ACC schedule. I like the kids on this team.

  139. 139
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    daveweigel ‏@ daveweigel 2h2 hours ago
    Rep. Brad Sherman, still in the press area, applauds when Cruz says he will not be neutral bt Israeli and the Palestinians
    daveweigel ‏@ daveweigel 2h2 hours ago
    Dem Rep. Brad Sherman, in press box, yells “bingo!” when Cruz dings Trump for saying “Palestine.”

    That’s Progressive/Populist Caucus member Brad Sherman.

  140. 140
    Baud says:

    @Elizabelle: I don’t know who that is.

  141. 141
    Technocrat says:

    @Elizabelle:

    Dammit! What is it with this year?

  142. 142
    tsquared2001 says:

    @Betty Cracker: And a HUGE thank you in return (now that I got some sleep). Very much reminded of Prime Suspect with Helen Mirren but from the bobbie on the street aspect. Threw out some twitter love too.

  143. 143
    raven says:

    @benw: I know, paying the Gamecocks. Georgia ended with St Mary’s last night.

  144. 144
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @JPL:

    Is there a back door to that WaPo interview? I’d like to read it but I’ve used up my free links for the month.

  145. 145
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @tsquared2001: Very much reminded of Prime Suspect with Helen Mirren

    That’s a recommendation right there. Love that series.

  146. 146
    different-church-lady says:

    You’ve been predicting a new war in the middle east once a week for the past five years.

    I can’t quite remember, but you may even have been right a couple of times.

  147. 147
    raven says:

    @tsquared2001: Get on Last Tango if you haven’t.

  148. 148
    Mandalay says:

    @Tom Levenson:

    One thing people forget about the Clinton team. They didn’t intervene in Rwanda.

    To be fair to Bill Clinton, who is not a man I like or respect very much, he has said loudly and often that doing nothing about the slaughter in Rwanda was his biggest mistake.

    Those who justifiably want to dump on him over Rwanda should at least acknowledge that. We should be encouraging politicians to say”I fucked up massively, I was wrong. I’m sorry”.

  149. 149
  150. 150
    burnspbesq says:

    @Mary G:

    Either she’s pandering or a true believer

    Pandering is my bet. Jewish votes count the same as any others. If you can’t tell people Thing X while asking for their votess, and then do everything but Thing X once you’re in office, what kind of pokitician are you, anyway?

    I do wish that some U.S. politician would make public note of the fact that Israel has become the haven of choice for Orthodox pedophiles seeking to escape accountability in their home countries. Those scandals are every bit as disgusting as the Catholic scandals.

  151. 151
    tsquared2001 says:

    @PhoenixRising: Tell ’em, Phoenix!

  152. 152
  153. 153
    JPL says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Go incognito.. You might see three lines on the http line.. click on that. It’s on the right It’s also where you can make adjustments to the page size or bookmark. Pretty much Trump doesn’t see the need for us being members of NATO or fleets in the Pacific..
    Those countries who rob us cuz of trade agreements, can take care of themselves.

  154. 154
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    Time has the transcript of Hillary’s speech:

    As AIPAC members, you understand that while the turmoil of the Middle East presents enormous challenge and complexity, walking away is not an option.

    (APPLAUSE)

    Candidates for president who think the United States can outsource Middle East security to dictators, or that America no longer has vital national interests at stake in this region are dangerously wrong.

    (APPLAUSE)

    It would be a serious mistake for the United States to abandon our responsibilities, or cede the mantle of leadership for global peace and security to anyone else.

    (APPLAUSE)

    As we gather here, three evolving threats — Iran’s continued aggression, a rising tide of extremism across a wide arc of instability, and the growing effort to de-legitimize Israel on the world stage — are converging to make the U.S.-Israel alliance more indispensable than ever.

    (APPLAUSE)

    We have to combat all these trends with even more intense security and diplomatic cooperation. The United States and Israel must be closer than ever, stronger than ever and more determined than ever to prevail against our common adversaries and to advance our shared values.

    (APPLAUSE)

    And so forth.

    She would have had to work pretty hard to grovel more than that.

    :-(

    How are we going to convince Israel that they won’t have our support in creating (as Jimmy Carter said) an apartheid state in Israel and the Occupied Territories with such language? When she spoke about promoting peace she spoke in terms of what “should” happen rather than saying we would work to make it happen. When it comes to talking about what we’ll do for Israel, it’s unbreakable bonds and enduring friendship and so forth, but it’s wring our hands and tut tut and so forth when it comes to using our influence to get Israel’s government to change its policies.

    As I said earlier, everyone panders. But she really didn’t need to go so far throwing all of our potential influence under the bus.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  155. 155
    different-church-lady says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Looking forward to seeing who was full of shit!

    My guess is all of them.

    (ETA: Baud beats me to it… no wonder he’s presidential material…)

  156. 156
    Steve in the ATL says:

    Good fucking God another night of tedious purity pony posts. I’m going back to Daily Kos for some more measured opinions.

  157. 157
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @burnspbesq:

    If you can’t tell people Thing X while asking for their votess, and then do everything but Thing X once you’re in office, what kind of pokitician are you, anyway?

    That’s what “Big Daddy” said, though alot more colorfully.

  158. 158
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @PhoenixRising: I’m sorry, where are we seeing proof that those actions actually cured the problem? As far as I can see, it’s worse in those areas. Perhaps taking a long-term approach to solving our problems 30 years ago might have made a difference. Instead we locked ’em up and threw away the keys and paid no attention to fixing the root causes of crime and violence in poor communities–black or Latino. Look up the stats on how well we’re doing now.

    @tsquared2001:

    And, I’ll tell you why black Democrats in the south voted for Mrs. Clinton – because the Democratic Party at the federal level has been a friend to black people and it has fucking NOTHING to do with conservative viewpoints or gays or abortion or the damn DLC. This shit is literally life and death. It has to do with Senator Sanders acting like the Obama Coalition doesn’t exist while he chases after white voters who haven’t voted Team Blue in 30+ years.

    Yeah, right. Because Blacks don’t know that Bernie Sanders is a Big Ole LIberal who not only supports all the Federal programs they need and want, but wants to expand them.

    And please, cut the crap with the imaginary white voters who haven’t voted Dem now rushing to vote for a guy calling himself a “Democratic Socialist”. Those folks didn’t vote Democrat because the Party wasn’t conservative enough for them, not the opposite.

    As for Michelle Obama, she’s not running for President. But I’m betting she supports Barack on most things. So what?

  159. 159
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: As you said, everyone panders to these assholes. Is it possible that she is telling them what they want to hear but will push back on their bullshit when she is president?

  160. 160
    geg6 says:

    @SteveinSC:

    Fuck you, you sexist asshole.

    I may not agree with her in this issue, but you just made me send another donation and agree to another shift of canvassing for her, you fucking pig.

  161. 161
    Cacti says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    And please, cut the crap with the imaginary white voters who haven’t voted Dem now rushing to vote for a guy calling himself a “Democratic Socialist”. Those folks didn’t vote Democrat because the Party wasn’t conservative enough for them, not the opposite.

    So why does Bernie keep chasing the Reagan Democrats with his class reductionist economic message?

    Is he naive, or just arrogant enough to think things will be different for him, because revolution?

  162. 162
  163. 163
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    I’m sorry, where are we seeing proof that those actions actually cured the problem?

    They didn’t. But back in the ’90s, a shitload of people thought that that some combination of those actions would help. The CBC supported the crime bill. Right?

  164. 164
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @JPL:

    Thanks very much, will try that.

  165. 165
    Schlemazel (parmesan rancor) says:

    @raven:
    Now be nice! It appears blobs new antipsychotic meds have solved that issue he was having when Putin stopped paying him to equate the US with Nazis because they supported democracy in Ukraine instead of a return to Russian rule by fiat so we should go easy on him lest he come unglued again.

  166. 166
    tsquared2001 says:

    @Bob In Portland: Gonna take a page out of the @raven syllabus and tell Bob From Portland to fuck right the fuck off.

  167. 167
    Anya says:

    I hate the yearly ritual of proving our undying love for Israel but I am not that bothered by HRC’s speech. I didn’t like the sucking up to Nutanyahu but she’s gotta do what she’s gotta do. I don’t believe HRC will take us into foolish wars.This is similar to IA ritual that lead politicians to eat phallic objects in the name of campaigning.

  168. 168
    PhoenixRising says:

    @tsquared2001: I have met Hillary Rodham Clinton 3 times. Both meetings during the ’92 primary* were in historically Black churches (one in my own zip code in Oakland, the other where my mom worked for 22 years in Cleveland).

    The topic of the crime bill just enrages me because it’s such a roundabout, sophisticated way of saying ‘Black Lives …whatever’.

    PS I am white.

    *3rd time was in Albuquerque, in a crowd that looked a lot like the Democratic Party, which she and Chelsea worked masterfully to get the best photo ops with multiracial families like mine. Yep, I’m proud to be a member of the party that panders to us rather than using us as the piñata.

  169. 169
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

  170. 170
    JPL says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Here is another way that might be easier

    You want a fresh “Incongnito” or “Private Browsing” tab or window. Ctrl-Shift-N in Chrome, Ctrl-Shift-P in Firefox. That should do it.

  171. 171
    different-church-lady says:

    @Tom Levenson: Two things are certain:

    a) A president Hillary Clinton will use military force at some time during her presidency

    b) In the minds of her detractors, it will “prove” that she’s a warmonger and they’ve been right all along.

    The fact that (a) would be true of any president will not dissuade anyone from concluding (b).

  172. 172
    Technocrat says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    It’s not worse in Baltimore:

    The overall crime rate (the number of crimes per 100,000 people) fell by 48 percent during that decade, more than any other large police agency in the country. Specifically for violent crimes, the Baltimore City Police Department saw the third highest drop (behind Los Angeles and New York City) during the period

    Crime today is about half what it was in the 90’s.

  173. 173
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @Anya: And sing the praises of ethanol.

  174. 174
    hellslittlestangel says:

    Isn’t basically anything that any US politician says to AIPAC just pandering bullshit? So who cares? Clinton can promise them whatever, as far as I’m concerned, just the PODB.

  175. 175
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @gene108:

    I think some things stand out because his successor was the worst President ever.

    I absolutely agree with this. Clinton was still a far, far better President than Bush, and had almost all his good stuff not been literally dismantled by Dubya, we’d be a better America today.

    I really wish we’d overturn that God-damned stupid idea of a 22nd Amendment. Or at the very least we create term limits for Congress. Not having the ability to re-elect a great, popular President has just been so damn destructive to progress.

    Does anyone really think FDR would have had the success he did had he not been in power for almost two decades? This shit takes time. And as for fear of it turning on us with a Republican–name me one Republican President after Eisenhower that you think would have been re-elected to a third term? GW was as hated by the R’s as he was by the rest of us.

    Obama would be our guy for at least four more years if the country had a chance to keep him in office.

    And on that note, I’m going to make myself a triple Margarita.

  176. 176
    dexwood says:

    @SteveinSC:

    You, sir, are a gaping asshole.

  177. 177
    rb says:

    @Bob In Portland: or maybe Africa.

    LOL. Could you be a little less specific please?

    Maybe Eurasia, maybe Pangaea.

  178. 178
    JPL says:

    Sometimes you go with the Hillary you have, not the one might want or wish to have at a later time.

    I’m voting for the democratic nominee.

  179. 179
    NR says:

    @gene108: This is exactly the kind of attitude that will hurt Hillary big time in November.

    She and her people think that the 90s were great, and then the Republicans got into power and screwed everything up. The reality is that neoliberal economics has been a disaster for huge swaths of the country, and only stock market bubbles have masked the damage. Take a drive through the upper peninsula in Michigan sometime. You’ll find whole towns that have just been completely abandoned. That shit started in the 90s, you can’t lay it on Bush Junior.

  180. 180
    Mandalay says:

    @tsquared2001:

    Equating the spouse with the guy with actual power is ridiculous.

    Get a grip. Compare how much Hillary Clinton was involved with the doomed healthcare legislation (aka “Hillarycare”) when Bill Clinton was in power, with how much Michelle Obama was involved in the ACA legislation (not at all).

    Or do you think it’s called Obamacare because Michelle wrote it?

  181. 181
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Anya:
    I just read the speech, and I concur.

  182. 182
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @dexwood: It’s okay; he’ll call you an exquisite prig. Then you will know pain.

  183. 183
    El Caganer says:

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: She’s not groveling – she believes this stuff. And let’s face it: she supports a woman’s right to choose. Faced with that, who cares if a bunch of towelheads get slaughtered?

  184. 184
    Technocrat says:

    @NR:

    It was much earlier, under Reagan. This is a great story of how Pittsburgh survived the change:

    In desperate 1983, there was nowhere for Pittsburgh’s economy to go but up

    In January 1983, the regional economy officially — that is, numerically — bottomed out. Unemployment in Allegheny County hit 13.9 percent, a rosy figure compared to the rest of the Pittsburgh metropolitan statistical area, where the adjusted unemployment rate hit an astonishing 17.1 percent (unadjusted, the number was actually higher, 18.2 percent).

  185. 185
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Oh my. Rachel Maddow’s clips of Trump-inspired musical numbers… Who was that sad goof crooning “(Donald, Donald) Stand By Me”? Looked it up, his name is Beau Davidson. Trump dances like the gopher from Caddyshack.

  186. 186
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @El Caganer: Wow, you are swinging for the fences with that one.

  187. 187
    different-church-lady says:

    I’m just gonna try to get with the invigorating spirit of this thread in a completely all-encompassing way, and tell each and every one of you to fuck off, no matter what your opinion is.

  188. 188
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @Technocrat: It was still Bill Clinton’s fault, eh somehow.

  189. 189
    PhoenixRising says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    Perhaps taking a long-term approach to solving our problems 30 years ago might have made a difference. Instead we locked ’em up and threw away the keys

    You…don’t live in a neighborhood plagued by drug violence, do you? More to the point: Why do you think your after-the-fact guesses about what might have worked better should trump the specific demands made at that time by people who wanted their own blocks to get response when they dialed 911?

    You see, this IS an important issue, but not for the reason those who feel the Bern think it is. It’s about who has agency in the policy debate: undergraduates who took a sociology class, or folks who live next door to pathology.

  190. 190
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @different-church-lady: Oh, blow it out your ass.

  191. 191
    different-church-lady says:

    @Amir Khalid: Wait, you read the speech? Isn’t that cheating or something?

  192. 192
    Technocrat says:

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    Scandal #142: Clinton Time Travel

  193. 193
    tsquared2001 says:

    @LAC: I might have been over the line with the run tell that part of my diatribe but still…that shit pisses me off. The implication that black voters don’t know their political friends because of their church or some other amorphous reason just pushes all my buttons and NOT in a good, cool sexy way.

  194. 194
    different-church-lady says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: You’ve been warned. YOU’VE BEEN WARNED!!!

  195. 195
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @different-church-lady: OMG!

    ETA: Next you’re gonna tell me, it’ll be on my Permanent Record.

  196. 196
    geg6 says:

    @Technocrat:

    Except for murders with automatic weapons like AR-15s, the sales of which to the general public Bernie considers much more important than the deaths of 7 year-olds and other assorted beings less special than gun manufacturers. Can’t hurt the gun industry now, can we?

    Fuck these Bernistas. They call Hillary some sort of psycho mass murderer but their hero is just as bloodthirsty and less discerning about who he gets killed.

  197. 197
    Technocrat says:

    @different-church-lady:

    I don’t think I personally received a warning, and The Warner is now in my pie filter, so:

    [[dances smugly]]

  198. 198
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    I really wish we’d overturn that God-damned stupid idea of a 22nd Amendment

    Without the 22nd, the rotting corpse of Ronald Reagan would currently be running for his 10th term.

  199. 199
    Linnaeus says:

    Thank you for linking this, John.

  200. 200
    geg6 says:

    @El Caganer:

    And Bernie wants to give everyone, even the wealthiest among us, a free college education. Next to that, who cares about the murders of first graders and assorted other expendable civilians?

  201. 201
    MomSense says:

    As long as I can remember, Democratic candidates have gone to AIPAC, delivered speeches promising everything, and then spent the next week or so walking back some of their promises.
    We’ll start hearing HRCs campaign “clarify” her positions. Barack Obama in 2008 said something about Jerusalem at AIPAC (can’t remember the exact issue now but it may have been partitions) and then walked it back endlessly the next couple weeks. I even think the Clinton campaign seized that issue and ran with it.
    This too shall pass especially after we all read what Trump had to say.

  202. 202
    Technocrat says:

    @geg6:

    I don’t think either of them are mass murderers. Vermont is not the Bronx, or Baltimore. I don’t agree with his stance, but I can see how he’s come by it.

  203. 203
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Technocrat: I’m waiting for his affections to turn to Trump after Bernmentum fizzles out. Here’s a piece by one of Trump’s newly-named foreign policy advisory team blaming NATO for Russia’s extra-territorial adventurism, just like Stephen Cohen and those other people Bob likes to quote so approvingly.

    Wonder when The Nation will endorse Il Donaldo?

  204. 204
    Darkrose says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Try opening it as a new link in an Incognito window.

  205. 205
    tsquared2001 says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    “Yeah, right. Because Blacks don’t know that Bernie Sanders is a Big Ole LIberal who not only supports all the Federal programs they need and want, but wants to expand them.”

    I didn’t say that. YOU were the one who implied that southern black people who back Mrs. Clinton only do so because they don’t actually know who their real friends are because of church or conservatism or whatever AND that, my friend, is something I will push back at every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

  206. 206
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Wonder when The Nation will endorse Il Donaldo?

    That would be the end of the magazine’s credibility. No coming back from that as a lefty mag.

  207. 207
    different-church-lady says:

    I haven’t read it yet, but there’s a Rec List diary over at the GOS with the title: “STFU w/Update”

    For some reason I find that hysterical.

  208. 208
    tsquared2001 says:

    @Cacti: REVOLUTION!!!

  209. 209
    Linnaeus says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Wonder when The Nation will endorse Il Donaldo?

    How about “never”?

  210. 210
    Marc says:

    @tsquared2001: Or, maybe, southerners are conservative and socialists don’t do well there. And Clinton has roots there and Sanders doesn’t.

  211. 211
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @different-church-lady: Is it a Cole post?

  212. 212
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @PhoenixRising:

    You…don’t live in a neighborhood plagued by drug violence, do you?

    Fortunately, no. Because I’m fortunate enough to live in a town that’s not yet gentrified, like you’d like to assume. Less than a half mile away is a trailer park–one of many crime plagued but affordable neighborhoods in my town– where it does. Those kids go to school with my kids and their friends. As a matter of fact, the kids who grow up in that and other poor areas in my community are not just in the same school with my kids, but some have become friends with them. They’re welcome in my home. We stand next to their parents at the same school functions. We cheer for them on the playing field, again right next to their parents. We cry at their funerals, right next to their parents.

    And for almost 15 years, I worked in the place in town where the crossroads of all walks of our towns life occurs: the domestic violence shelter. I saw things you don’t want to see, and the agony of the failure of our country to do some of the simplest fucking things to make lives permanently better for people so they can get away from the misery you’re talking about.

    So, yeah, I know this shit from a deep level–not just as “an undergrad who took a sociology course”.

  213. 213
    Marc says:

    @PhoenixRising: I was around for the crime debates in the 1990s too. There were strong liberal dissents from the lock-em-up mentality. And the Clintons were on the other side. It’s a lot more complex than people see now, because crime rates were higher (again, having lived in “unsafe” cities and “unsafe” neighborhoods during the historic crime highs, it wasn’t like a WW II movie) and minority communities really were getting victimized at very high rates by predators. But we could see, even at the time, that a lot of non-predators were getting swept up too. There were other choices.

  214. 214
    Keith G says:

    @geg6: How is he being sexist? Or are you being homophobic, as guys suck dick too – often rather well, I might add.

    Though, I am glad you are motivated to ad more money to Hillary’s campaign.

  215. 215
    chopper says:

    @SteveinSC:

    If Hillary had a little more time she would have tried to suck every dick in the AIPAC auditorium. She sets a new, low standard for pandering.

    interesting way of putting it. wait, no, what’s the word – oh yeah, tedious.

  216. 216
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @Technocrat: And oh my Fucking God you’re referencing BALTIMORE as a shining example of how great things are now

  217. 217
    tsquared2001 says:

    @PhoenixRising: The crime bill was garbage but this attitude:

    “The topic of the crime bill just enrages me because it’s such a roundabout, sophisticated way of saying ‘Black Lives …whatever’.”

    NO. From 1980 and before 1984 bill, the incarceration rate climbed 150%. You got a problem with incarceration rates, talk to Zombie Reagan.

    Never, ever forget – it is ALWAYS Reagan’s fault.

  218. 218
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Linnaeus: Yeah, well, here’s a summary, copied from The Nation’s website of their contributing editor (and husband of the publisher) Stephen Cohen’s appearance on The John Batchelor Show on radio last month:

     The conversation ends with Cohen pointing out that among Republican presidential candidates, only Donald Trump has proposed a kind of détente with Moscow, while the others advocate, in their bellicose bumper-sticker pronouncements, escalating the military confrontation with Russia on all fronts, from Europe to the Middle East.

  219. 219
    tsquared2001 says:

    @Linnaeus: Nah, Man – the time is half past never. Synchronize your watches in 1,2,3….

  220. 220
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @Technocrat:

    It’s not worse in Baltimore…Crime today is about half what it was in the 90’s.

    Oh my Fucking Lord, you’re SERIOUSLY referencing BALTIMORE AS AN EXAMPLE of the good impacts of the Clinton Crime Bill?

    You have read the long-form journalism on police brutality, the decline of good male role models due to the lack of good paying jobs after the steel mills closed, and the fight for justice by Black leadership in that community? You do know that some of the only decent paying work to be found in that community is criminal in nature for Black youth?

  221. 221
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Keith G: How about he is being demeaning to the entire dick-sucking community. The suggestion was that doing that was a demeaning act. geg6 left some people out (bad geg6), but her point stands.

  222. 222
    Linnaeus says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    The Nation is also running plenty of stuff that’s critical of Trump. It’s a leap to go from Cohen’s statement to an endorsement.

  223. 223
    Heliopause says:

    who seem to think it was no big deal for HRC to go there and crap all over Obama

    Coincidentally, Bill Clinton just told a Spokane audience about the “awful legacy of the last eight years.” Presumably he’s talking about Republican obstructionism or some such, but even if so it’s a pretty big fuck you to Obama.

  224. 224
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Linnaeus: Always start with small steps.

  225. 225
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @tsquared2001: I implied–no, directly stated–that Southern Blacks vote for the Clintons because they agree with them on deeply held issues. And because they have a long relationship with the Clintons, politically.

    YOU implied that they don’t vote for Bernie because of some “dependence on Federal programs” bullshit. Which makes Black southern Dems sound like they’re welfare dependent voters and THAT is bullshit.

  226. 226
    different-church-lady says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Apparently there was nobody in that entire audience without a dick.

  227. 227
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: You have always been a sensible commenter as far as I can remember. Why are you ignoring the fact that Sanders and the CBC supported the bill? In hindsight, they were wrong, but you can’t toss it at HRC’s feet.

  228. 228
    Linnaeus says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    They’re not going to take that step.

  229. 229
    tsquared2001 says:

    @Marc: I must disagree. Senator Sanders disses POTUS on the regular and THAT shit will never fly with either southern black voters or northern black voters (such as myself).

    Talking shit about Mr. Obama will get you a quick fast in a hurry slap across the face.

    Or at least, not a vote in the primary

  230. 230
    Technocrat says:

    @Marc:

    First of all, I agree with you that it was a complex issue with two sides, even back then. But I do want to push back some on “It wasn’t like a WW II movie”.

    during the length of U.S. combat operations in the Iraq war, 3,517 American troops were killed in action – and 3,113 people were killed in Philadelphia.

    This is now, in the 90’s it was much worse:

    Since the 1990s, death rates for young black men have dropped more than rates for other groups, notes Robert N. Anderson, the chief of mortality statistics at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Both homicides and H.I.V.-related deaths, which disproportionately afflict black men, have dropped

    As I recall, walking down the streets in some areas involved realtime life or death decisions. No mortars or tanks, certainly. But the death toll was indeed comparable to a war zone.

    ETA: Link for Iraq vs Philly stats: http://www.philly.com/philly/n....._2011.html

  231. 231
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @Heliopause:

    Bill Clinton just told a Spokane audience about the “awful legacy of the last eight years.” Presumably he’s talking about Republican obstructionism or some such, but even if so it’s a pretty big fuck you to Obama.

    The weirdness of Bill Clinton’s psyche is that while he betrayed Hilary on the deepest, most hurtful, most measurable human level more than once, he remains almost pathologically loyal to her politically.

    @tsquared2001: Bill Clinton hated Barack Obama for running against her. He was willing to use almost anything that would work to take him down–some say he was the original “Birther”. Regardless of her feelings or her role in his administration, Bill deeply resents Barack Obama because he won in 2008. And he can’t quite keep that from blurping out whenever he gets the chance.

    But the Clintons are the Blacks best friend.

  232. 232
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: Oh, dear god.

  233. 233
    MomSense says:

    @Heliopause:

    He was talking about Reoublicans.

    Propane Jane did a really good storify in the 94 crime bill if anyone is interested.

  234. 234
    Technocrat says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    Ella, everything you cited is true. But those are the problems we’re concerned with now, because young black men aren’t being slain at the same prodigious rate.

    You do know that some of the only decent paying work to be found in that community is criminal in nature for Black youth?

    Nope. We’re not going to normalize that. The step to criminality isn’t a job prospect. Especially not violent crime, I might look the other way for selling some weed. But home invaders, and muggers, and car jackers are doing violence to real innocents. What about their prospects?

  235. 235
    Chris says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    A two state solution died twenty years ago. The Palestinians I know here, they’ve all got family back ‘home’ that are gonna get shit on with a big helping hand from whoever runs America. It sucks, and I hate it, but we’ve decided to write off the Palestinians, so they will end up like the Armenians.

    At least Armenia’s a country today.

    The Palestinians will end up like American Indians, stuffed into a few reservations in the West Bank and a larger reservation in Gaza. To a large extent, this is already happening.

  236. 236
    ellennelle says:

    totally agree; hillary will have us in at least one war before her second year in office.

    and so you’re on board with her for …why, again, exactly?

    and would that were our only concern with her.

  237. 237
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @Technocrat: Those “thugs” were adorable, sweet, open to the beauty of the world babies at one point. But they’ve been taught by their environments that what you’re talking about works.

    Pretty much 99.9 % of that crime has nothing to do with those criminals DNA. It’s learned as a response to the totality of their lives.

    Or don’t you believe in nature vs. nurture?

  238. 238
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Oh, dear god.

    When people make stupid arguments, sometimes you gotta slap them in the face with the stinking dead fish of truth.

    Sorry for that. Shall I link to the video of the SHIT BILL CLINTON HAS SAID ABOUT BARACK OBAMA

  239. 239
    tsquared2001 says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: Again – NO.

    I stated that black southerners know that the federal Democratic PARTY (not programs) has been a friend – there was NOT one mention of federal programs unless you are talking about the right to vote, or the expectation that if John Law kills you and the local populace lets him off, the feds will be there for some type of justice.

    Fucking welfare was not implied nor stated & seriously, I resent the implication.

  240. 240
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @ellennelle: Well, some of us do not agree with your assessment. Why d I support her candidacy? Because I think she supports the majority of the Democratic Party’s ideals and she is the one best positioned to protect Obama’s achievements and move forward from them.

    Do you have a problem with that?

  241. 241
    tsquared2001 says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: Who the fuck are those same who call him the original birther?
    One name – give me one.

  242. 242
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: And I’m not tossing that bill at Hilary’s feet. I’m arguing with a bunch of idiots here who think “it was just fine Bill did it because the Congress made him” which is just bullshit.

  243. 243
    Heliopause says:

    @MomSense:

    He was talking about Reoublicans.

    As I said. The clear implication of his remarks (unless you take them at face value as being about Obama) is that Hillary Clinton will not be the failure at dealing with Republicans that Obama was.

    There is no way around it, Bill Clinton shat all over Obama. The only other interpretation is that he’s doddering and not fully aware of what he’s saying. Not sure which is preferable.

  244. 244
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: Loyalty is stronger than sex.

    Just sayin’.

  245. 245
    tsquared2001 says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: There is NOT one white guy who has ever lived who has EVER been the best friend of black people. Well, at least not in America

    Take that shit somewhere else.

    Instead, I do believe I will take myself somewhere else.

    Gonna re-run some Happy Valley.

  246. 246
    chopper says:

    so cole is convinced the dem is gonna end up in another Mideast quagmire. must be a weekday.

  247. 247
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: You aren’t reading what what people are writing. People have been saying that in the ’90s, the fucking bill seemed like a good idea. I note that you haven’t ever recognized my mentions that the CBC supported it.

  248. 248
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    Pretty much 99.9 % of that crime has nothing to do with those criminals DNA.

    Who the fuck here said it did?

  249. 249
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @tsquared2001: there were several inside reports that discussed the Clinton campaign’s opposition strategy when things got tight in the Primaries which included emphasizing Obama’s not being a real American citizen, the existence of a “Michelle Obama Whitely Tape”, etc. I remember it well, and it was being talked about across multiple sites on the internet at the time. It disgusted me as I was for Obama and it’s part of what has turned me off to her in this election.

    Go research it for yourself.

  250. 250
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    @MomSense: Good points. Maybe if we keep yelling at them every year after they give these horribly pandering speeches, maybe they’ll figure out that they should stop giving them.

    Or, since “scheduling conflicts” are the all-purpose excuse for not attending a meeting, I suggest that in March 2017 someone start the “Annual Barack and Michelle Obama Invitational Conference on All That is Good and Right With The World” which just happens to be scheduled the same time as AIPAC. ;-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  251. 251
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @chopper: Cole may have come out for HRC, but his history is still with him. And his tendency to knee-jerk react to things.

  252. 252
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    I remember it well, and it was being talked about across multiple sites on the internet at the time.

    Wait, I think I see the problem…

  253. 253
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: wow, you got from “second hand stuff I saw on some blogs” to “her” pretty quick there.

  254. 254
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @Technocrat:

    Nope. We’re not going to normalize that. step to criminality isn’t a job prospect. Especially not violent crime, I might look the other way for selling some weed. But home invaders, and muggers, and car jackers are doing violence to real innocents. What about their prospects?

    @different-church-lady: This guy, by inference.

    These long thread get hard to follow, but it’s important to track back if you wanna chime in. As I’ve learned by accident many times. ;-)

  255. 255
    Technocrat says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    Those “thugs” were adorable, sweet, open to the beauty of the world babies at one point. But they’ve been taught by their environments that what you’re talking about works.

    Pretty much 99.9 % of that crime has nothing to do with those criminals DNA. It’s learned as a response to the totality of their lives

    I know that. It’s absolutely environmental. And it is exacerbated by poverty, because the decent people – the majority – can’t afford to move away from the few real badasses. It only takes a few to warp the entire neighborhood.

    But you have to start somewhere. When some guy beats the shit out of his wife, what do you do? Offer him therapy, sure. But what about the second time, and the third? How do the victims get a break?

    In the 1991 flick Boyz in the Hood, one of the protagonists makes this lament:

    Doughboy knows that he will soon face retaliation for Ferris’ death, and accepts the consequences of his crime-ridden life. He plaintively questions why America “don’t know, don’t show, or don’t care about what’s going on in the hood”.

    This was a “black” movie done by a young black director. That’s what people felt in the 90’s, like no one cared if we killed each other off.

  256. 256
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @different-church-lady: Reports in national newspapers, reliable news sites, and great commentary sites like Mother Jones, TNR, the Atlantic, blah blah blah.

    Not “Blackhelicoptersarestealingmygmosoymilk.com.”

    Oh my God this site is getting to be too much work just because I’m voting for Sanders in the Primaries. lol

  257. 257
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @Technocrat:

    Ahhhhh….Sweetie, I’m not at all sure what we’re arguing about at this point.

    I’m gonna go watch that video of the Arctic Fox laughing his tiny, sweet ass off for awhile.

  258. 258
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: It might have nothing at all to do with who you’re voting for and everything to do with the things you say.

  259. 259
    Technocrat says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    Pie, probably.

    I need to sleep anyway ;)

  260. 260
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: Can I just get you to acknowledge that the CBC supported the ’90s crime bill?

  261. 261
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: You aren’t a victim. People disagreed with you. Don’t pretend the two are equivalent.

    I am losing respect for you comment by comment. But I doubt you care.

  262. 262
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Ok.

    The Canadian Broadcasting Company supported the 90’s Crime bill. ;-)

    @Omnes Omnibus: I am losing respect for you comment by comment. But I doubt you care.

    Of course I care. Like I said earlier, you have to read back through the thread to see where the conversation meandered to understand where I’m coming from.

    Also, there’s a shit-ton of Bernie hate at this blog lately that turns kind of ugly. It’s my reaction to that you might be seeing.

  263. 263
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: Hahahahaha. You know what I meant. I have quit taking you seriously. You are a silly person.

  264. 264
    Technocrat says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    Ella, you’ll note that at no time did I mention Bernie. AND, I’m black, so the belated realization that you called me a racist is both galling and hilarious.

    Anyway, I didn’t see it veer off the tracks the way you presumably did. I was simply explaining the reasons why many black people supported the Crime Bill (of Evil)

  265. 265
    Applejinx says:

    @Steve in the ATL: I noticed she did tell one story about how she made their (leader? diplomat?) smoke outside on the balcony. That could be a reference to pushback: it’s certainly a symbolic ‘not letting them do whatever they want’. Hard to tell.

  266. 266
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Applejinx: Drink more or drink less. The amount of drinking you have currently chosen isn’t working.

  267. 267
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    You are a silly person.

    I WISH I was a silly person.

    Well, maybe tonight I am. After an awesome triple-shot Margarita my hubby of 33 years forced me to drink. After working 39 hours in three days with no lunches in the CCU where I have to do things like turn a 450lb patient every two hours and watch a beloved doctor who used to be on our staff die a terrible, lingering death from stage 4 melanoma after he just retired 5 months ago.

    And yeah, I know the Congressional Black Caucus liked that bill. Sadly.

    But most days, Omnes, it’s really hard for me to be silly. I’m getting tired compromising. Of hearing how we can’t do the right thing in this country to relieve people’s suffering and hopelessness. Of waiting for the world to begin.

    Whats the URL to that Arctic Fox video again….

  268. 268
    superpredators4hillary says:

    Stay the course, stray the course, whatever.

  269. 269
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @SteveinSC: YOU, turdcake, are not welcome here.

  270. 270
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @Technocrat: When on frigging earth did I call you racist?

    I was simply explaining the reasons why many black people supported the Crime Bill (of Evil)

    Ok,now we’re on the same page. ;-)

    No, really, I get it. They were desperate for help. i totally understand. But the Jesus I love says we needed to go further. And we didn’t, but it’s ok. We’ll do better under Bernie. :-D

  271. 271
    chopper says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    And yeah, I know the Congressional Black Caucus liked that bill.

    why do you think that was?

  272. 272
    Technocrat says:

    #248, #254. By inference I was saying black people had criminal DNA? I don’t know how else to read your comment.

    Not really offended, mind you. More bemused.

  273. 273
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @chopper: Cuz they were desperate for change, for help, for something to make their lives livable again.

    Like I am.

  274. 274
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: Vote for Bernie. Fine. Don’t denigrate people who made a different choice. And, yeah, you have been doing that.

  275. 275
    chris m says:

    @Tom Levenson: Hillary’s supporters keep telling us she isn’t responsible for Bill Clinton’s policies re deregulation, the crime bill or welfare “reform” but somehow we’re supposed to assume that because Bill didn’t go to war Hillary won’t. And we’re supposed to assume this despite her ceaselessly bellicose rhetoric and her lobbying for US military intervention in Libya and Syria.

  276. 276
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @Technocrat:

    I’m assuming this is directed to me, so bear with me.

    When you said that violent criminals don’t get a pass, I just wanted you to understand that those people were born into this world with as much possibility as you or I, and that apparently, their later criminal activity was a response to what they learned were their best options.

    If you don’t believe they learned this by the circumstances of their upbringing and environment, you might be saying that they were born that way.

    Which is crap.:-)

  277. 277
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @chris m: It’s okay. She’ll totally invade everyone. She did sign the PNAC letter, right? No? She didn’t? Golly.

  278. 278
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Vote for Bernie. Fine. Don’t denigrate people who made a different choice. And, yeah, you have been doing that.

    No, I haven’t. Really. I’m just arguing the case that she’s not the second coming. Not unlike John Cole did at the top of this entire thread.

    So vote for Hilary if YOU want. Just don’t decide that only Hlary voters count here. And for fuck’s sake don’t EVER accuse me of being “silly”again.

  279. 279
    chopper says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    yet, despite the CBC begging for, and supporting, the crime bill for those reasons we blame hilz for its aftermath. seems kinda fucking convenient.

  280. 280
    Technocrat says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    Yeah, it was directed at you (I blame WP for my shortcomings), and we certainly both agree on the innocence and potential of children. I hope we also both agree that adults are responsible for their actions.

    ETA: The horse, it’s probably dead

  281. 281
    chopper says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    who has ever said she’s the second coming? jumpin jesus on a fucking pogo stick, this is getting surreal.

    the only supporters I’ve ever seen this year who feel that way about their candidate support either cruz or bernie.

  282. 282
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: W’evs. I tend to think that you are full of shit, but I could be wrong.

  283. 283
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @Technocrat: Yes. Yes. And yes, the pitiful horse died.

    I hate you all for killing him because I love horses. And cats. And laughing Arctic Foxes.

    No, I don’t hate you all.

    I love my Balloon Juice Family. Because you’re like my real family, at Thanksgiving, around my outdoor patio dinner table of crazeee.
    @Omnes Omnibus: …but I could be wrong.

    Oh,, you KNOW you’re wrong :-D

  284. 284
    eemom says:

    Perhaps it would help if we all agree that, no matter what disagreements we have now:

    (1) We will all vote for whoever the Democratic candidate is in November;

    (2) Anyone who won’t do that can fuck off and die.

    Just a thought.

  285. 285
    burnspbesq says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    Actually, to a neutral, it appears that you’re playing intellectually dishonest revisionist-history games.

    Pretty much all of the support for the 1994 crime bill was based on a good faith belief that it was the best politically possible answer to a very serious problem. With the benefit of hindsight, we see that most of it didn’t work the way its proponents hoped. But that just means the supporters were wrong; it doesn’t mean that they were disingenuous or racist.

    The data unambiguously show that, adjusted for population change, violent crime is down–in some cases substantially–in virtually every major metropolitan area in this country. Nodody knows for certain why that is (FAIK, Kevin Drum could be right, it could mostly be about lead), but it is, and I’m not sure what you hope to gain by pretending it’s not.

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    chopper says:

    @burnspbesq:

    there’s your problem. according to these guys there’s no such thing as good faith when hilz is involved.

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    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: No. Vote your choice. I simply don’t care anymore. If a Republican wins because people value purity over practicality, I can’t fix it.

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    Monala says:

    @Bob In Portland: aren’t you the one who criticized her for not intervening in Honduras?

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    LAC says:

    @tsquared2001: you used it correctly, so I am ok with that.😉 Me, I am over the some of our liberal friends’ lecture series consisting of how we should properly protest, or how we should feel the Bern because I DO, BLACK PERSON!, or “I bought a black beret and thought about marching with the black panthers back in the day, so there!”

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    Michael Brown says:

    @mclaren: @Omnes Omnibus: People whom proceed to do stupid shit like supporting the person whom has told you she is the corrupted establishment personified as opposed to the guy whom is actually trying to do something about fixing the system…..that ultimately affects us all deserve nothing but denigration.

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    Michael Brown says:

    @burnspbesq: ….no…they were in fact disengenious and racist. Funny how these same tough on crime dip shits did a 180 with the advent of the “Meth Crisis”….so spare us the bullshit plausible deniability. This game has been played on the backs of black/brown people since 1963: “Oh….I had no idea that this legislation would reek havoc on those coloreds….the whole 20 plus years it was happening before my eyes….and I did fuck all to stop it.”

    ….of on a tangent…I wonder why Hillary is still throwing her support behind Rahm….you know…the guy whom’s PD was running a fucking Black Site in Chicago where they brought black/brown people they kidnapped to torture confessions out of……is that the reason why she failed to mention LaQuan McDonald while reading off the names of black people murdered by police in S.C. ? Fuck the Clintons and their supporters.

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    Michael Brown says:

    @chopper: I don’t know…maybe the CBC at the time where full of duplicitous, corrupt members at the time ? You do realize that black politicians are not immune from being self-indulgent, sociopathic scum…..right ?

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    @Weaselone:

    I think you’re right, though I found the rhetoric interesting. Palestinians only suffer. Israelis get killed. I’m not sure if you meant it, or whether you didn’t want to use “killed” twice.

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    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    I think the disconnect here is the era Clinton represents. She is from old school where you have to out-Republican Republicans to be elected, where one has to check off the national security/foreign policy bonafides from the 80’s.

    That doesn’t mean she won’t be a terrible president or start a bunch of wars. It just means her default campaigning mode has already been formed to play on a field created by Republicans.

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    CDWard says:

    Israel:

    – is an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist Jewish State;

    – has been stealing, occupying and colonizing Palestinian land and
    oppressing, torturing and killing Palestinians for over 60 years;

    – refuses to honor its obligations under international law;

    – refuses to accept responsibility and accountability for its past and on-going war crimes; and

    – refuses to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.

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    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: I think there’s something to that (not wanting to get out-toughed by Republicans), but I’m not positive it’s a bygone era. Obama in 2008, after having been embraced by the antiwar movement for refusing to wage “stupid wars,” still promised to crush Al Qaeda, kill bin Laden, violate Pakistani sovereignty if necessary, and concentrate on fighting for anti-terrorism purposes in Afghanistan. And when Obama spoke at AIPAC in 2008, it sounded like this.

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