Bundy Bunch Update – Updated at 8:50

For those who want to listen to it, here’s the 90 minute audio recording of the meeting between the Coalition of Western States folks, Harney County Judge Gratsy, and Sheriff Ward:

Oregon Public Broadcasting has reported that the Coalition of Western States people, who are state and county officials in a number of western states, knew that the Bundy’s planned to occupy a federal site well in advance of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge Occupation. Specifically:

(Greenlee County, Arizona Commissioner) Corbell told OPB that coalition leadership knew Ammon Bundy planned to take over U.S. government property in Harney County before it happened, but were unsure which federal outpost it would be. The federal government owns about 75 percent of the land in Harney County.

“We knew he was going to do something,” Corbell said, “because something had to be done.”

OPB is also reporting that the State of Oregon’s Department of Justice has begun an investigation into Grant County Sheriff Palmer. This is in addition to the Oregon State Department of Public Safety Standards and Training’s looking into the complaints against Sheriff Palmer that it has received.

Finally, as several commenters in other threads have mentioned, Cliven Bundy refused to plead at all, has been denied bail, and is claiming he was not involved in the standoff at his ranch against the BLM in 2014. He seems to be claiming that he was just there, hanging out at home, when the whole thing happened, but it didn’t really have anything to do with him. Regardless of this line of legal reasoning, he will remain in custody through his trial in Nevada.  His sons Ammon and Ryan, as well as several others, have convinced the Federal judge in Oregon currently handling their case that they should not be extradited to Nevada until the Oregon case is resolved as it would prevent them from receiving a speedy trial.

—–Update at 8:50 PM——-

Here’s a horrifying tale of both abuse of power and just what happens when one of these “Constitutional” Sheriffs is allowed to run amok.






145 replies
  1. 1
    Mai.naem.mobile says:

    I read this article yesterday. All these enabler fuckers should be in jail along with the Bundy’s. There has to be some law that they violated by not reporting this being that they’re elected officials and to make matters worse some are in law enforcement. You damn well know if this was some elected Muslim they’d have his whole mosque under arrest.

  2. 2
    LAO says:

    Thank you, Adam.

  3. 3

    claiming he was not involved in the standoff at his ranch against the BLM in 2014

    Isn’t there a fair amount of video of him involved in that standoff? As I recall, that’s how we heard his views on African Americans.

  4. 4
    redshirt says:

    I wonder what percent of other Americans hold similar values to these guys. Also, is it regionalized to the west (for now)?

  5. 5
    geg6 says:

    How is it that these people aren’t considered accessories? Especially the law enforcement among them? Obviously, IANAL.

  6. 6
    geg6 says:

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    Yeah, that shit ain’t gonna fly. Too much evidence.

  7. 7
    Cheryl Rofer says:

    A reporter at the Las Vegas Sun did an interview with Michele Fiore.

    All softball questions.

  8. 8
    LAO says:

    @geg6: I don’t think they will be charged. But they, probably, could be charged as aiders and abettors (18 USC 2).

  9. 9
  10. 10
    LAO says:

    18 USC 2, is as follows

    (a) Whoever commits an offense against the United States or aids, abets, counsels, commands, induces or procures its commission, is punishable as a principal.
    (b) Whoever willfully causes an act to be done which if directly performed by him or another would be an offense against the United States, is punishable as a principal.

  11. 11
    Adam L Silverman says:

    Updated!!!

  12. 12
    redshirt says:

    Hey Adam,

    A request! Could you do a comic book related post at some point? Doesn’t need to be tonight of course, but since you linked me to LGM’s comic book content, I realized I’d love to see you do an in depth post on a comic book topic. You obviously know your stuff and I (and am sure many others) would love to read it.

    Thanks in advance!

  13. 13
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Iowa Old Lady: Yes.

  14. 14
    LAO says:

    I’m stunned. It’s as if these people, the constitutional sheriffs, et al, live in a different reality.

  15. 15
    lagarita says:

    Ummmm, IANAL but a little voice in my head is screaming “RICO”.

  16. 16
    Technocrat says:

    @redshirt:

    I second this. I bookmarked last night’s thread.

  17. 17
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @redshirt: Attewell put a great new one up today about how Claremont transformed Magneto into the anti-hero/villain we know and love. He must have sensed a disturbance…
    http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblo.....k-lensherr

    Also, and I’m a big fan of Little Green Footballs – I love their comments and always find great stuff linked to there, last night while we were discussing comic books and strippers/strip joints, they were engrossed in a discussion of the meaning of the number 2 in regard to discussing what atheism is. I’m pretty sure I know who had the better time!!!!

  18. 18
  19. 19
    redshirt says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I read his post today, thanks again for the link.

    I note you didn’t answer my request….

  20. 20
    Ruckus says:

    @LAO:
    They do live in a different reality. Their own. They have the power, they are sheriffs of entire counties. Without them there is no law. They are the law. It is their jail and their courthouse and their……..
    Of course not all western sheriffs think this way nor act it. But there are always some who feel THEY ARE THE LAW. Over everything in their county.

  21. 21
    LAO says:

    Now, I’m reading about Richard Mack, what a tool. I wish I hadn’t spent the whole day making candy and eating chocolate because I feel sick!

  22. 22
    LAO says:

    @Ruckus: I think (hope) that the Bundy prosecution educates the rest of the country to these dangerous nutters.

  23. 23
    Mike J says:

    @LAO: You can’t be charged under 18 §2. There are no penalties. It merely allows you to be charged with the underlying crime as if you did it yourself.

    https://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-manual-2476-18-usc-2-not-independent-offense

  24. 24
    geg6 says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Wow. Just wow. These people have completely lost the thread.

  25. 25
    geg6 says:

    @Ruckus:

    They are just petty, small-time dictators, much like the county sheriffs were in the Jim Crow south. And just as dangerous.

  26. 26
    Mike J says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Speaking of comics,

    SuperheroesInColor ‏@HeroesInColor00 10h10 hours ago
    Black Panther #1 Variant by Sanford Greene

    Story Ta-Nehisi Coates, art Brian Stelfreeze

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cdwpl3YWIAEKL4p.jpg:large

    And William Gibson (happy birthday to him , BTW) has a new comic coming out called Archangel.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdiStW6UkAIr0JJ.jpg:large

  27. 27
    redshirt says:

    @efgoldman: Is that response because you’re Jewish or Atheist? Or both? :)

  28. 28
    LAO says:

    @Mike J: I know. My point is, they can be charged with the substantive crime under an aiding and abetting theory. That’s why indictments generally cited both the substantive offense and 18 usc 2 ( even though it’s not explicitly necessary to charge section 2, at least in the circuit I practice in).

    ETA: sorry if I wasn’t clear

  29. 29
    Pogonip says:

    My father just turned 89. For what it’s worth, he says people are nuttier now than at any time he can recall, including The Sixties. (I was a kid in The Sixties so my main recollection is disgruntlement that my parents would not let me be a hippie like the lady across the road.)

    My perception is the nuttiness really got going during The Eighties.

  30. 30
    LAO says:

    @efgoldman:

    and the first words out of his mouth were “I want to thank my lord and savior, jesus christ….”

    I’ve be waiting for a losing player to ask Jesus why he forsook (forsaken ?) him. That would be awesome.

  31. 31
    Baud says:

    @efgoldman:

    How many three-pointers did Jesus make?

    All of them, Katie.

  32. 32
    redshirt says:

    @Pogonip: Is your Dad a liberal or conservative?

  33. 33
    Baud says:

    @Pogonip:

    my parents would not let me be a hippie like the lady across the road.)

    What exactly would that have entailed?

  34. 34
    dr. bloor says:

    OT: But did Bernie just say he would ask a sitting President to withdraw his SCOTUS nominee during a lame duck session because he’d want to nominate someone further left? Please tell me I misheard.

  35. 35
    Clem says:

    Judge Anna has a new legal theory for the Bundys. Apparently the old one didn’t work in criminal trials.

  36. 36
    Baud says:

    @dr. bloor: Sounds consistent with what some people are saying here and at other blogs.

  37. 37
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Her behavior and comments could be problematic for her. Some (extended) excerpted examples:

    They entered a federal office building while armed, renamed the facility, accessed personnel files and posted private information about employees online, destroyed fencing while allowing the media to record them, drove government vehicles and said they were ready to “kill or be killed” while making a stand against the United States government.

    Nevada congressional candidate Michele Fiore calls this “camping.”
    Fiore bristled at questions in which the Oregon incident was described as an occupation. Not only did she say the activists acted lawfully, she contended they were victims of “an act of terrorism” by the federal government.

    “It was abandoned. No one was there, so they basically kind of said, ‘This is a great place to camp and make our statement,’” Fiore said.

    link

    and from OPB

    The audio recording of the Jan. 9 “fact-finding” meeting between COWS and Harney County officials shows that Shea, Fiore and at least five other state lawmakers attempted to negotiate on behalf of the militants.

    The lawmakers wanted information from law enforcement, including what tactics the FBI anticipated taking against the militants. They wondered aloud, for example, whether refuge power would be cut. Law enforcement personnel repeatedly declined answering. The lawmakers continued to ask.

    They also wanted to know what criminal charges the occupiers might face. After getting nowhere with that line of inquiry, coalition members asked with whom they could negotiate on behalf of the Ammon Bundy-led militants.

    “There is no negotiation,” said Marion County Sheriff Jason Myers, one of the local law enforcement officers at the meeting. “Just go home. We’re not going to negotiate because we just want them to leave this community.”

    “The issue that causes concern is not entirely just the occupation of that facility, it’s the other people this has brought into our community,” said Harney County Deputy Sheriff Brian Needham. “There have been many threats made. There are people in the community that are dangerous people.”

    Finally, over the phone, Fiore tried to turn the meeting into a call to action.
    “The BLM has become a bureaucratic agency of – basically – terrorism,” she said. “So at what point do we band together as elected officials, and say, ‘Enough is enough of the BLM?’ Can we divert this conversation? At what point are we going to actually do something for our citizens?”

    Judge Steve Grasty, the leading elected official in Harney County, dismissed that notion out of hand and asked Fiore and others not to call federal officers “terrorists.”

    Fiore and other COWS members helped militants plan press events, including one in which a New Mexico rancher promised to stop paying grazing fees to the BLM. But the coalition’s efforts on behalf of the militants went beyond public relations.
    At Shea’s request, Anthony Bosworth – a one-time candidate for Yakima County Sheriff – went to the refuge as a “security specialist.” He also stayed at the facility.

  38. 38
    scav says:

    Well, clearly one can see why activist judges are not to be tolerated. All power of defining and executing laws belongs to sherrifs and certain LEOs, of the appropriate ilk, of course.

  39. 39
    BubbaDave says:

    @LAO:
    “Man, I really thought we had a chance to win this game, but Jesus missed what, two or three layups? And then He drew that T for calling the ref a ‘whited sepulchre’ whatever the heck THAT is. Plus He was having trouble guarding their big guys — all in all big J was dead out there but we’re counting on Him to come back strong in three days.”

  40. 40
    redshirt says:

    @LAO: I’m not Christian, but I don’t think it works that way. When the athlete fails, it’s obviously because he/she and/or his/her team did not pray to Jesus enough or live a life in line with Christ’s approval, and/or the opponent did to a higher degree. It’s a Jesus competition.

  41. 41
    Technocrat says:

    @srv:

    The oppressive jackboot of free grazing.

  42. 42
    LAO says:

    @BubbaDave: that’s what I’m talking about!!! Lol

  43. 43
    geg6 says:

    @dr. bloor:

    Well, he also seems to think the super delegates should forget about Hillary at the convention and throw in with him because he’s so awesome. Forget the fact that we are talking about long time party activists. Bernie’s been a Dem for all of a few months but he’s more deserving of their support than a Dem First Lady, senator and SoS by virtue of his awesomeness. But he still won’t be raising money or campaigning on behalf of other Dems because they are all sell outs and Bernie needs every penny he raises. I’ve about had it with Bernie, I’ve gotta say.

  44. 44
    LAO says:

    @redshirt: I get what you’re saying (I’m Jewish) but still, just once, can’t some smart ass athlete make my dream come true?

  45. 45
    Baud says:

    @redshirt:

    When the athlete fails, it’s obviously because he/she and/or his/her team did not pray to Jesus enough or live a life in line with Christ’s approval, and/or the opponent did to a higher degree. of Obama

    Fixed.

  46. 46
    LAO says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): hey there fellow addict. Do you think there is any potential liability here for Fiore of the other members of COWS? I may be changing my mind.

  47. 47
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    Hey Adam, not to be a greedy junkie (much), do you have any updates about noise from Eric Parker’s connections? I (think I) recall that you mentioned some.

    @LAO: Adam suggested he’d try to get a Balloon Juice discount rate at Betty Ford for us. It has better weather than Hazelden.
    Based on what I’ve read in the last couple days, I’m beginning to see it as a possibility. Elected officials cannot behave this way, no matter how independent the west thinks it is. I wondered what your thoughts were.

  48. 48
    MikeS says:

    @geg6: According to this piece on CNN’s website Bernie does do fundraising for Democratic Candidates

    Sanders has based his presidential campaign on a fire-and-brimstone critique of a broken campaign finance system — and of Hillary Clinton for her reliance on big-dollar Wall Street donors. But Sanders is part of that system, and has helped Democrats court many of the same donors.

  49. 49
    trollhattan says:

    I’m beginning to think western sheriffs are the source of some significant bullshit.

  50. 50
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @redshirt: I have the request. Now I have to figure out what to do with it.

  51. 51
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @geg6: Unfortunately they have their own alternative thread. That they think is the real thread.

  52. 52
    debbie says:

    @Pogonip:

    I’m somewhere around your age and I remember the nuttiness beginning just after Clinton’s election. McNeil Lehrer had an interview with three members of some Michigan militia group. Overweight, dressed in camouflage two sizes too small, and insisting they could drive at any speed they wanted because there wasn’t anything in the Constitution that said anything about speed limits.

  53. 53
    LAO says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I’m starting to believe it might be possible. But, I’m still of the opinion that this isn’t a fight that the Feds necessarily want to have.

  54. 54

    Here’s a horrifying tale of both abuse of power and just what happens when one of these “Constitutional” Sheriffs is allowed to run amok.

    Not gonna click it, sorry, my imagination is bad enough without coating it with reality.

    Thank you, Adam, for keeping all of this in sight and reading it so I do not have to… it echoes the first line of the ‘Domestic Terrorism’ section of the FBI report on the terrorist threat confronting the United States.

  55. 55
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Unfortunately no news reporting. I saw something on someone’s twitter the other day with pictures from someone else’s facebook of about six or seven guys demonstrating in front of the court in support of having him released on bail. Eric Parker and Eric J. Parker are very common names. There’s several attorneys and a cop with the same name. So even my google fu is bringing up a lot of erroneous hits.

  56. 56
    redshirt says:

    @efgoldman: So you do believe in God?

  57. 57
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @BruceFromOhio: Its about a BLM Ranger, Iraq/OIF Vet, who was explaining to a coworker who is related to a sheriff’s deputy, what IED stood for. So the Sheriff had him arrested for making terroristic threats or something. BLM and Department of Interior interviewed everyone who heard the conversation and they all collaborated that nothing of the sort had happened, but the DA didn’t want to drop charges because the Sheriff wanted to make an example of the BLM Ranger. The Ranger got a good attorney, he got the charges dropped, he left the area and is considering a lawsuit for false arrest, imprisonment, and malicious prosecution.

  58. 58
    hueyplong says:

    @efgoldman:

    It was the 1978 Giants.

  59. 59
    mclaren says:

    Why is anyone wasting their time paying attention to these clowns?

  60. 60
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    As I’m sure some will think I’ve said ad nauseam, I have two sons who majored in Conservation and Wildlife Biology and who have worked, between the two of them, in varying capacities for the Forest Service, the BLM, their university and as full-time employees with our state. They also took summer internships and temporary employment with non-profits that work along side these entities either as contractors or peers.

    Part of me wants to cry every time I read the Bundy stories or the one Adam linked to above. My good, decent, sincere and hardworking kids went into the field they did, not to get rich, not be famous, not to be harassed or shot or driven out of their work, but for the piece of mind and good works of improving and sustaining the natural world. I doubt had either one been told on an interview “Oh, by the way you’ll be a target for every crazy anti-constitutional nut job out there and we probably won’t do much to back you up” they would have ever taken those jobs.

    But after talking to them, they relate that even though overall they are pretty happy with the folks they have worked for and with, not only are there hostile locals in these jobs, some of the very co-workers they are to depend on share their beliefs. Sometimes, they are employed in these agencies because they have connected family members who help them get these halfway decent paying ($12-15 per hour) temp jobs, and they spend half their time at work bitching about “the government takeover of our lands” and the other half farting around. The supervisors at their sites often are relieved my kids are actually into doing the damn job, and do a great job of mentoring and teaching them, but feel intimidated politically into keeping the losers coming back. “I’m sorry about so-and-so, just ignore him, he’s the mayors son so I’m stuck with him every summer cuz he can’t find work anywhere else”.

    I don’t know if anyone read the great expose at Huffington post the other day about sexual harassment being tolerated in the Forest and Park Service against women. http://highline.huffingtonpost.....mg00000063

    It’s a sad yet hopeful story, and yes it’s another issue but the problem is the same: The Feds need to clean up their act and start supporting their great employees, standing behind them. They need to purge their ranks of abusers and anti-government nut jobs, unqualified to do the work.

    Instead, they get the same message, for example EPA gets: find a way to make it work for the people who are your enemies, for the lawbreakers and the polluters and the people who break the rules. It’s why Flint happened on the EPA’s watch. It’s why the Animas river in Colorado and New Mexico was poisoned last year. It’s why the FBI played such a low key role at Malheur.

    The government has management and regulatory agencies whose job it is to protect the general public from harm and to preserve our natural resources for all. The Republicans have so neutered them—and yes, at times with the assistance of Democrats–as to make them useless, and to make their employees feel unappreciated and demoralized.

    I hope President Clinton or President Sanders finds a way to fucking fix this. And I’d like them to start with putting it through these fuckers thick heads that the Federal Government does have jurisdiction in all these places.

    So fuck you Papa Bundy and Aaron and Ryan and all of your offspring. Fuck you if you ever get bail as far as I’m concerned.

  61. 61
    ThresherK (GPad) says:

    @debbie: Bill Clinton beat a man who was trained to be president from a very young age (if not actually bred and conceived for the role), and a year after that Desert Storm thing.0, and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact.

    No wonder the right lost their shit. They’ve never recovered it.

  62. 62
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @mclaren: Click bait!

  63. 63
    LAO says:

    @efgoldman: No matter what you believe or where you worship, gawd doesn’t give a shit who wins a ball game.

    I agree whole heartedly. I’m a huge sports fan, and it makes me uncomfortable when athletes get all evangelical.

    Eta: I have no idea how I fcked up this comment. Talent I guess.

  64. 64
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @LAO: I’m pretty sure it’s a fight the feds totally don’t want to have, but I think there’s now a non zero chance they won’t have a choice.

    @Adam L Silverman: Yah, I discovered the name was too common to be searchable. But given the brother’s comments prior to the arrest, I’m listening for chatter.

  65. 65
    LAO says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Hey, now. Some of us have a problem…not me. I’m reading it for a friend.

  66. 66
    redshirt says:

    I wonder if anti-government standoffs occur at a regular rate.

  67. 67
  68. 68
    hovercraft says:

    Bernie was just on Rachel Maddow he said that even if behind he would try to turn the super delegates by arguing he would be a stronger general candidate. I think the man is drinking his own koolaid. Sorry about the off topic.

  69. 69
    The Republic, Blah Blah Blah... says:

    @LAO:

    It’s as if these people, the constitutional sheriffs, et al, live in a different reality.

    It’s not ‘as if‘ they live in a different reality…

    These assclowns DO live in a different reality…

  70. 70
    Honus says:

    @efgoldman: for years I thought he was a jerk, but I’ve liked bob knight ever since I heard that he once told a player “son, Jesus Christ doesn’t give a damn about university of Indiana basketball”

  71. 71
    hovercraft says:

    Sorry meant to say if behind at the convention.

  72. 72
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Found it!
    https://www.facebook.com/eric.berg.7773/videos/10205763012130181/?pnref=story

    Warning auto play is turned on on that Facebook page.

    Its from a Free Eric Parker rally. I intend to collect the entire set and win valuable prizes.

  73. 73
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: No matter what I said, odds are it would upset him. So I figured I’d go with click bait. If he came back I was going to go with because you all have started emailing me links because you can’t wait for me to do a post. And if that didn’t satisfy him I am going to claim its on orders from my CIA handler.

  74. 74
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @redshirt: go to JJ MacNab’s twitter feed. Scroll down quite a way and she has a bunch of frequency plots showing the distributions. To really answer your question though would be to take the information and see if it distributes Chi Square, which is, I think, an appropriate test for normalcy even if the date itself violates the gauss-markov assumptions as its non-linear.

  75. 75
    The Republic, Blah Blah Blah... says:

    @lagarita: Me too…

    … the Coalition of Western States people, who are state and county officials in a number of western states, knew that the Bundy’s planned to occupy a federal site well in advance of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge Occupation…

    If this level of involvement isn’t approaching Rico-type turf…

    i have to wonder how many of these twits are out back running the paper shredder and smashing hard drives w/ a ball peen hammer right now.

  76. 76
    LAO says:

    @Adam L Silverman: it didn’t occur to me to email you links. I apologize in advance.

  77. 77
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: Hip Hop has you covered!

  78. 78
    Cheryl Rofer says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I think there’s a lot problematic about Fiore’s interview, but even more in the willingness of the COWS group to try to influence law enforcement and get information from them to carry back to the occupiers. Arrests are continuing, so one of these days it might be some of the COWS group.

    This information also helps to explain why Fiore was the one who talked the final four into giving up. Although she seems not to be pleased with them as “outsiders.”

  79. 79
    LAO says:

    @The Republic, Blah Blah Blah…: I still don’t see RICO but am open to being convinced.

  80. 80
    LAO says:

    @Adam L Silverman: challenge accepted. JK! I’m way to lazy to email links. Your mailbox is safe.

  81. 81
    MomSense says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    I want to cry thinking about your kids who are committed to conservation for all the right reasons having to deal with such horrible, ignorant people. And I absolutely understand the worry for your sons and the anger you feel at the Bundy’s.

  82. 82
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @LAO: Slacker.

  83. 83
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @hovercraft: I think the man is drinking his own koolaid.

    I think that kool-ade was spiked with delusi-roofies

    Sorry about the off topic.

    about sixteen hours since an open thread. Just sayin’

  84. 84
    LAO says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): what could I say, the poor guy panicked at the thought of both of us sending links. You’re clearly on your game, I’m certainly willing to defer to you.

  85. 85
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: I didn’t panic, I said Hip Hop has you covered.

  86. 86
    LAO says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I read between the lines. 😉

  87. 87
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Please, call me Bella Q, or I’ll have to call you Dr. Silverman. : )

    @Cheryl Rofer: I agree that the COWS behavior in OR could be a real issue, especially since they went out for meetings.

  88. 88
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: It was one sentence, there were no between the lines.

  89. 89
    geg6 says:

    @hovercraft:

    Jesus. He’s lost the thread, too.

  90. 90
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I was going to go with Hippity Hoppity, would that work for you?

  91. 91
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Adam L Silverman: On your head be it, sir. And may god have mercy on your soul.

  92. 92
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I asked first!

  93. 93
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Omnes pretty much said all that needs be said.

  94. 94
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Fine, be that way…

  95. 95
    LAO says:

    @Adam L Silverman: that’s all a good lawyer needs.

  96. 96
    Mnemosyne says:

    @geg6:

    They are just petty, small-time dictators, much like the county sheriffs were in the Jim Crow south. And just as dangerous.

    This right here. White supremacism is white supremacism whether the slogan is “segregation forever” or “sovereign citizens unite.”

  97. 97
    Honus says:

    @efgoldman: I tuned into a college hoops game at random a few years ago and was immediately struck by the fact that the announcer was very knowledgeable and yet calm and explained what was going on almost before it happened. Sort of the complete anti-Dickie V. A commercial break came and I was shocked to find it was bob knight. He was maybe the best basketball analyst I ever heard.

  98. 98
    nutella says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Fiore was the one who talked the final four into giving up. Although she seems not to be pleased with them as “outsiders.”

    Hey, those four aren’t in our seditious conspiracy. They’ve got a completely different seditious conspiracy!

  99. 99
    frosty says:

    I really appreciate these updates Adam. I don’t see any of this on my usual news outlets.

  100. 100
    Felonius Monk says:

    @efgoldman:

    No matter what you believe or where you worship, gawd doesn’t give a shit who wins a ball game.

    I’m not so sure. I can distinctly remember Bobby Knight yelling at one of his players, Jesus Christ, how’d you miss that layup? :-)

  101. 101
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Felonius Monk: Ceremonial deism.

  102. 102
    Wag says:

    @Clem:

    WFF is that all about. That is the biggest mountain of gibberish I’ve read in a long time.

    And I routinely read medical research papers, so I know gibberish when I read it.

  103. 103
  104. 104
    LAO says:

    @Mnemosyne: I don’t want to disagree but I don’t think this is about race. This, to me and I am no expert, is partially about the renegotiation of the social contract that the binds this country. They reject the authority of the federal government, yet it is the federal government (since the civil war or at least the 1960s) that ensures states meet certain minimum requirements with respect to their citizens. For example, the Feds set the floor re constitutional rights and states can grant greater rights.

  105. 105
    frosty says:

    @Pogonip:

    people are nuttier now than at any time he can recall, including The Sixties

    I read McPherson’s Battle Cry of Freedom recently and the parallels between the 1850s and now were eye-opening. Nullification and all the rest of it.

  106. 106
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @frosty: Try to get through the first several chapters of Catton’s Centennial History of the Civil War. And I say try because it is densely written! But the parallels will astound you.

  107. 107
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: Its not a renegotiation of the social contract, its a rejection of it.

  108. 108
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @frosty: There have always been nutty people.

  109. 109
    Wag says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    What has the Federal government ever done for us?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE

  110. 110
    Technocrat says:

    @redshirt:

    Late to this one, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a pattern. There is some evidence that terrorist attacks follow a power law, which is to say that there are frequent small attacks, and infrequent but very large attacks.

    It would be interesting to see how well the JJ McNabb data matches such a model.

    Bizarrely enough, earthquake frequency and severity also follows a power law.

  111. 111
    LAO says:

    @Adam L Silverman: agreed. I’m tired. You are right.

  112. 112
    burnspbesq says:

    @mclaren:

    Why is anyone wasting their time paying attention to these clowns?

    They’re more entertaining than you.

  113. 113
    Mnemosyne says:

    @LAO:

    It is and it isn’t. IMO, the initial split was very much about race, because the assertion of “state’s rights” was about the state’s right to legal segregation, but I think the movement has metastasized past that.

    It’s sort of like the way the Southern Baptists were perfectly fine with abortion until the 1980s and saw no moral problem with it at all … until they decided they needed to ally with Roman Catholics and double down on being more “moral” than everyone else. Now you have a whole generation that’s been raised to be virulently anti-abortion — to the point where some of them are willing to murder people over it — but, as Fred Clark says, that “moral truth” is younger than the Happy Meal.

    And, let’s face it, the white supremacism is never far below the surface, which is why Cliven Bundy felt compelled to tell us what he knows about “the blacks” as soon as there was a microphone in front of him.

  114. 114
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @LAO: I knew you did. When we’re tired, our word choices sometimes suffer.

  115. 115
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Technocrat: As someone who’s built several terrorism data chronologies and then operationalized them, what you have are mini trends. First off the data is non linear – it bounces around a lot year over year. And its small n, even in places where it happens more frequently. This means you need to run a poisson model on it. But the mini trends often are contextually determined. Anti-abortion clinic violence and terrorism actually increases in presidential years and when it looks like a GOP candidate will win/when that election year precedes a GOP presidential win. My takeaway was this had to do with increased mention of the issue on the campaign and in the media. In Israeli Hamas attacks always spike during elections where PM Netanyahu is running and appears to be winning. He ratchets up the rhetoric, Hamas ratchets up the violence, they both get each other, which is what they really want.

  116. 116
    LAO says:

    @Mnemosyne: I was inarticulate before. I agree that race is never all that far from the surface, but IMO there are other significant forces at work here. But I take your point and will think further on it.

  117. 117
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): No, me still talk good.

  118. 118
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: I’m tired too, but I’m not sure what that has to do with anything.

  119. 119
    redshirt says:

    Interesting that mcclaren won’t post in this thread.

  120. 120
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Great we get Bizarro Omnes.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uydWjLtHdtE

  121. 121
    Mnemosyne says:

    @LAO:

    I know there’s a metaphor I have in mind but I can’t think of it. Race is the source of the initial split, but more crap grows on top of the split until the people who believe the crazy stuff half-forget the source because they get so wound up in the rest of it.

    I guess it’s kind of like how they taught us for years that the Civil War wasn’t fought over slavery, it was fought over states’ rights and tariffs. Except … the right we were fighting about was the state’s right to allow slavery, or to force other states to support slavery (like the Fugitive Slave Act). Same with the tariff. But people got so involved with the details of those fights that they lost sight of the fact that we only had them because of slavery.

  122. 122
    LAO says:

    @Adam L Silverman: not thinking or writing particularly clearly. Which is my sign, to sign off.

    Good night all.

  123. 123
    LAO says:

    @Mnemosyne: I think you are right to an extent — as I just noted, I’m exhausted and this really is it for me tonight.

    I can’t explain or articulate, without giving it further thought, why this feels bigger to me than being just about race. And when I say “just about race,” I don’t mean to short change the very real problems we face with race in this country. This is a rejection of EVERY thing, this country is and stands for. I’m actually frightened by these crazies — when all of this began at the preserve, I thought it was funny, but not anymore.

    Anyway — have a wonderful evening. We shall continue this discussion another day, hopefully.

  124. 124
    Technocrat says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    It makes perfect sense that they run in trends. I think the power law hypothesis is more about the relationship between frequency and magnitude rather prediction of likelihood in a given circumstance. They’re two different views of the same thing.

    Did you read the link? The paper discussed uses almost 20,000 events, so there’s quite a lot of meat to fit a curve.

  125. 125
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @redshirt: The utter idiots who call themselves the oxymoron (emphasis on the moran part) “sovereign citizen” are from all over the place, but seem to be most active in the Empty Quarter of the West…the vast area east of the Cascades/Sierras and west of the Rocky Mountains.

    Bundy and his spawn should be locked up FOREVER. That goes double for the asshole sheriff of Grant County.

  126. 126
    Ruckus says:

    @geg6:
    They are just petty, small-time dictators

    Shorter, more to the point and exactly right.

  127. 127
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Technocrat: I think the power curve idea makes sense.

  128. 128
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Ruckus: They’re Lannister wannabes.

  129. 129
    Ruckus says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:
    Never watched Game of Thrones, that sort of show holds zero interest for me. But think about it, I could care less but knew exactly what you are talking about. That’s mass marketing and exposure.
    And is correct.

  130. 130
    elftx says:

    When the country has not just elected sheriffs but also state representatives spouting whackaloon; tis a problem.
    Thanks for all the links and continuing coverage of this.

  131. 131
    Anne Laurie says:

    He seems to be claiming that he was just there, hanging out at home, when the whole thing happened, but it didn’t really have anything to do with him.

    Cliven’s a toxic old buzzard, but it wouldn’t surprise me if his sons had run ahead of his own plans. He’d been happily ruling his little family compound and his feral cows for years, shouting the shite and posturing, always staying just far enough from drawing a line in the desert sand. Then “the boys” — either despairing of the old man ever dropping dead & ceding his throne, or aware he was starting to slide into senility — decided to seize the moment!!! and get every sovcit nutball and local media hoping for a national scoop involved.

    Wouldn’t be the first petty baron who found himself at odds with the reigning powers because his progeny got tired of waiting for him to die, would he?

    Note: I am no way excusing Cliven Bundy, a thief and a bigot and a very bad influence, for falling into the pit he’d trained his kids to dig. But I’m always curious about personalities. When the old man made the obvious mistake of leaving his home bunker and flying into Portland, it sure seemed like either senility or a desperate attempt to spark something — the kind of direct attempt Cliven had successfully avoided for a decade or more.

  132. 132
    Matt says:

    Here’s a horrifying tale of both abuse of power and just what happens when one of these “Constitutional” Sheriffs is allowed to run amok.

    BTW, this is not considered a bug by the yeehawdis – this is EXACTLY why they have a giant boner for county sheriffs. They aren’t opposed to state repression, they just want to make sure the people doing the repressing are appropriately conservative and hate the right people.

  133. 133
    Emily68 says:

    @Ruckus: I Iive in north central Washington state, in a pretty red county. My county commissioner, in fact, is a RWNJ. When the Bundys took over Malheur, I called up the county sheriff to ask if he had some plan about what to do if it happened here. If fact, he did. He let me know that he didn’t think the “go in guns ablazing” strategy was a good one, he did consider the occupiers criminals and that the county had plans to deal with a similar takeover. So I was quite heartened.

  134. 134
    Emily68 says:

    @Anne Laurie: I read somewhere the Cliven Bundy had flown at least a couple of times between the standoff in Nevada and when he was arrested in Portland. Maybe if his sons hadn’t taken over Malheur, Cliven would still be out of jail.

  135. 135
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Emily68: Not a chance, unless he’d died suddenly. Part of the long game is selecting arrest opportunities to take the network with the fewest consequences of the initial arrest. Had Cliven been nabbed too quickly, the chances of missing some (probably worse) actors from Bunkerville could have been too high. I suspect the younger folks were being studied for their networks, with the goal of preventing/minimizing future events.

    AL: I think Cliven initially said his sons had gone beyond what he would have suggested with the Malheur takeover, then once they were arrested he got agitated. But don’t forget that his line in the sand at his Nevada farm had a giant step across once it his crew took up arms against federal agents.

  136. 136

    […] Balloon Juice has the latest on the Bundy Bund. […]

  137. 137
    sukabi says:

    Very late to the thread, but this caught my eye Adam… seems some GOP official promised political favors to a felon to get his participation in the refuge stand off

  138. 138
    elftx says:

    The following can be found on the facebook page of Peter Walker

    David Hayes (Stanford University Law School) lecture on the Constitutional basis of federal land ownership. University of Oregon Law School, March 15, 2016.

  139. 139
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Also, and I’m a big fan of Little Green Footballs – I love their comments and always find great stuff linked to there, last night while we were discussing comic books and strippers/strip joints, they were engrossed in a discussion of the meaning of the number 2 in regard to discussing what atheism is. I’m pretty sure I know who had the better time!!!!

    I’m so, SO sorry for my part in keeping you off the atheism discussion… (hangs head). I did have one last observation for you sometime on the Stripper Theme , and then I swear to God I’ll stop talking about them so we can get back to Serious Business…

    Weren’t ANY of you out on St. Paddy’s night? Was I the only one who had to play pretty for the peoples out there? Now I have all this Bundy Madnezz to catch up on…and Syria, Iraq, and Jordan…Lord, what a life…

  140. 140
    tarragon says:

    @Anne Laurie:
    I know this is way late but… I can’t get over the how much I like the idea of the Bundys as a King Lear style tragedy

  141. 141
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Emily68: The sheriff in Tacoma was really good about this too from what I read. With a similar county commissioner/town councillor problem.

  142. 142
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @sukabi: Once I got all the way through the 90 minute recording, or, rather, to that point in the recording. I have no idea what this might mean for legal jeopardy.

  143. 143
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Miss Bianca: No worries.

  144. 144
    Miss Bianca says:

    @tarragon:

    Now you’ve given me an idea, since I’m actually doing dramaturgy for a production of “King Lear” this summer…wonder how cowboy hats and firearms would work in the design scheme the director has in mind…

    @Adam L Silverman: I kid, I KID. A little.

  145. 145
    sukabi says:

    @Adam L Silverman: seems like some “officials” have been fomenting a revolution…. encouraging a bit of terrorism, or at the very least aiding and abetting felonies…

    All those assholes need to be brought up on charges as well…

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