You know how sometimes you’re faced with a really hard choice where the pros and cons seem even and you just can’t make up your mind? And then you flip a coin, and while your quarter is spinning in the air, you realize which outcome you’re rooting for, and that’s how you make your decision?
That’s how picking a candidate for tomorrow’s primary has been for me this year. I like Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders both a lot and would happily vote for either one in the general. I’ve donated small sums to both candidates, watched most of the debates and followed their campaigns closely. Both are great candidates, IMO.
I first donated to the Sanders campaign as a protest: Like Sanders himself, I suspect, I didn’t think he’d come this far. My small donation was a way to show support for his consistent message about the corrupting influence of money in politics, a hope that an early groundswell of support for Sanders would buy his issues a seat at the table and shift the conversation in the primary leftward.
That’s not a knock on Clinton, BTW; I’ve never bought the notion that she’s a DLC Democrat at heart. I think her beliefs are similar to President Obama’s (in other words, a bog-standard center-left Democratic governing philosophy) and that they are consistent. There wasn’t a great deal of difference between the Clinton and Obama platforms in 2008, and there aren’t now either.
But I’ve noticed in past primaries that a candidate with a strong message can shift the conversation. Even that odious phony John Edwards put poverty more firmly on the agenda back in aught-eight with his “Two Americas” focus. Bernie’s message about creeping plutocracy couldn’t be more timely and urgent, and to his great credit, he has made it central to Democratic politics throughout this primary season.
Even so, just before the actual voting started, I was leaning a bit toward Hillary because I thought she was more electable, having withstood the wingnut shit storm for 25 years, formidably faced down the partisan witch hunt over Benghazi and forged strong, deep and long-standing ties with establishment figures and core constituencies of the party. But I still wasn’t sure.
I’ve followed the Berniacs vs Hillbots clashes at this blog and elsewhere, and I resolved not to allow the behavior of overly enthusiastic supporters color my opinions of the candidate, and that remains the case. But my coin-flip moment has been playing out as the voting takes place, and now I’m ready to admit it, to myself and to you all: I want Hillary to win. I’m going to vote for her tomorrow.
This realization started to dawn on me when she got edged out in Michigan. It’s not that I wanted Bernie to lose, but I was disappointed that Hillary didn’t win. I was disgusted with the media spin about it — not the valid analysis about trade, etc., and how that might have driven Rust Belt voters to the Sanders camp but the crap-fest about whether HRC was once again losing to a man who excites the youngs and whether the country wants to try something new instead of this tiresome, ambitious woman.
Well, after 229 years of the Oval Office being a men’s only club, a woman would be something new, even if we’ve known this particular woman forever. I’m not going to deny that’s a huge part of my support for HRC. I want a woman in the White House, damn it. And we’ve got an incredibly qualified one right in front of us.
It wasn’t that big of a deal to me in 2008 since I supported PBO over HRC. It seems more urgent now. In the 2008 primaries, my mom was a Hillary supporter, not just because Hillary is a woman but because my mom was a big fan of the Clintons, who were of her generation. Mom was no PUMA; after Obama won the primary, she voted for him in 2008 and again in 2012. She thought he was a great president.
But she never got to see a woman win the White House. And that sucks. I don’t apologize for believing that breaking this barrier is incredibly important. For myself. For my daughter. For all the women who came before us and will come after us. It’s not everything, but it’s not nothing either.
Anyhoo, as I said, I like Bernie too, and if he wins, I’ll work my ass off to make sure he prevails in November. My husband is going to cancel my Hillary vote by voting for Bernie tomorrow, and I will even remind him to do so. But it turns out I’m with her…and I have been all along.
PS: I realize the graphic up top is controversial because some people thought the quote implied that Sanders’ line about “shouting about gun control” was sexist. I don’t think Sanders is sexist at all. But I do like the sentiment in the quote, which is generally true.
Baud
Baud! is disappoint.
SiubhanDuinne
Terrific post, Betty! You’ve pretty much captured my own thinking, but much more articulately than I was able to do. For the record, I voted for Clinton in the Super Tuesday in GA early voting a month or more ago — well before the Michigan results, certainly — and while I continue to see things about Bernie that I really like (and things about Clinton I might wish she’d do differently), I don’t regret my choice one bit. And also for the record, I’ll work hard for whichever candidate is the Dem nominee.
Anyhow, well said, Ms Cracker.
Southern Beale
Yes, this. I want a woman in the White House too .. and not just ANY woman, or I’d have voted for Sarah fucking Palin or Carly or some other awful Republican woman.
I want a woman in the White House but I want the RIGHT woman in the White House. I think Hillary is it.
It annoys me to no end to hear people cast her aside as the “establishment candidate,” when she’d be the first woman to hold the office in the history of this country. Why doesn’t she get any credit for that? And furthermore, I’m tired of hearing “establishment” like it’s a dirty word. It means she’s forged relationships in Congress that will enable her to get things done, as opposed to Bernie who has been an outsider and other than shouting won’t be able to do much of anything.
Wormtown
ha. glad to see there is someone else who donated to both campaigns.
Scout211
Thank you, Betty.
This paragraph just spoke to me very deeply and nearly brought me to tears.
geg6
Bravo! There were a few things that pushed me into Hilz’s camp sooner than I would have liked. The fact that Bernie is not really a Democrat and doesn’t care about electing other Democrats, the gun manufacturer liability issue and, frankly, the self-righteous obnoxiousness of too many Berniacs were the main ones. I just wish there had been other choices. But once I boarded the Hillary train, I surprised myself with how much I want a woman to become president. Not later or someday. But now. I feel the fierce urgency of now. It must be a little like how African Americans felt when they realized Obama might win. Seemed impossible a few years ago. But I may actually live to see the administrations of both the first black president and the first woman president. Brings tears to my eyes at the thought.
Mary
@Southern Beale: Agreed on all points. I hadn’t thought that much about it until a few weeks ago when I suddenly had the thought “well, what if she DOESN’T win,” and I almost started to cry. I didn’t even realize how much it means to me to have a competent, talented woman who has worked this hard for so long in the White House.
SiubhanDuinne
@Southern Beale:
Yeah. And it’s not like there have never been male “establishment candidates” for more-or-less ever.
BGinCHI
Obama always does that thing where someone says, “Why don’t you do X policy?” and he says, “I agree with you, now go out there and make me do it.”
And I think Hilary is that kind of politician. This drive some people plum loco, but I think it’s a mature, constructive way to actually accomplish things, rather than count on noble failure (the definition of being 20-something).
I want Bernie to push the conversation, and I want HRC to win and make changes no one is expecting. This time I think instead of Yes We Can, it will be Yes We Will.
debbie
I’m voting for Bernie if only to remind Hillary that the nomination will not be handed to her; she needs to campaign hard all the way to the convention and she needs to respect how many people are not with her in regards to banks and free trade.
Actually, I’m more interested in my local and county races; there are some pretty important issues at stake, such as gun control and preventing school boards from being appointment-based. I just hope I’m not made to work late.
SiubhanDuinne
@Wormtown:
I donated to both campaigns, but I have to say I feel as though I spend most of my time deleting Bernie emails as fast as they arrive. They come in at the rate of three or four a day, and it’s really and truly pissing me off. I hear from HRC too, of course, but not nearly as frequently. Once every day or two in the heat of the primaries, I can handle. Twenty-three in a week? Nope.
gogol's wife
@geg6:
Same here.
gogol's wife
And if Hillary Clinton runs against Trump or Cruz or Rubio and loses, I will know for sure that we as a country are even more sexist than we are racist.
AnonPhenom
I’ve followed the Berniacs vs Hillbots clashes at this blog
LAO
Great post. When I voted in 2008, the woman one line in front of me was in her 90s. She cast her first ballot (ever) to reelect FDR. We waited on line for about one and half hours (which was crazy long for NYC) and she spent the entire time telling all of us the importance of voting because she remembered the passage of the 19th amendment. She was ecstatic, that in her lifetime, she got to vote for an AA. She then confided, she wished she had the opportunity to vote for a women. I’m going keep my eye out for her come November.
Johnnybuck
Hillary is probably the most accomplished, qualified person I have ever voted for. The fact that’s she’s a woman is irrelevant to me, but I can see how that would be a big Biden deal to many others. She’s simply the most qualified.
I like Bernie too, and I’ll gladly vote for him in the general (although I have to say, it seems like one has to make this statement anytime one chooses to show some level of support for HRC) but I didn’t like it that he won Michigan either, mainly because it pushes the bullshit “She’s losing” narrative.
I suspect winning the nomination, finally being acceptable to Democrats, will be her hardest campaign of all.
Baud
In all seriousness, congrats on your decision, Betty. I know there are people who have their problems with Hillary, but she’s a tough women, and I’ve always had a soft spot for tough women (like my mom was).
The Golux
I am 100% (nay, 1000%) in favor of more women attaining higher positions of power (see: Ginsberg, Sotomayor, Kagan), since my gender has essentially borked the system. Too much thinking with the small head.
My wife is in Betty’s camp, and beyond: she briefly would have accepted iCarly, but thankfully reconsidered, and the cratering of that candidacy made it moot.
ETA: I was somewhat leery of HRC in 2008, partly because I hated to think of the crap that the Rethuglicans would throw at her. Now? They can’t be any worse than they have been over the last eight years. And she’s a much better candidate this time around.
LAO
@Wormtown: I did too.
Josie
Thanks, Betty, for writing so effectively about your choice. You wrote what I have been thinking for some time.
hellslittlestangel
Hear, hear! I’ve been planning to vote for Clinton in 2016 since Obama beat her in 2008, and I’m thrilled that I’ll be able to.
And you know what else is really great? Our party has two candidates running, and they’re BOTH an excellent choice.
reality-based (the original, not the troll)
@Southern Beale:
well, yes – and I haven’t made up my mind, (not that my ND vote will count) and I’ll also work my butt off for whoever wins –
only small quibble – there’s a story in the NY times today about how Sanders has advanced his agenda in congress by sneaking his stuff in to larger bills. I like the idea of a “sneaky” President – since PBO’s magnanimous “can we all work together?” delusion cost him – and the country – a lot in his first term. (and I love the guy)
But ANYONE the Dems elect will face the same fierce obstruction that Obama did – Hilary’s past relationships in the congress won’t matter to Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan AT ALL. So I don’t weigh ttat on the plus side for her.
But either one is fine by me.
OT – if you haven’t already, go over and read Charles Pierce’s evisceration of the loathed Rahm Emmanuel. Great stuff. (Hated the guy for years. )
Pierce
MomSense
I was a reluctant Hillary supporter and decided for a number of reasons especially that she seems to me to be the only candidate able to perform all the functions from the get go. On foreign policy I really don’t see another candidate who has the depth of knowledge and personal relationships to be effective.
But last night I became a true supporter. The emotion and determination in her voice and facial expression when she said she would take on the gun lobby did it for me. We’ve been living in fear of those evil motherfuckers long enough.
And isn’t this also what our President (best of my lifetime) urged us to do? We have to make this issue front and center because I guarantee you there are millions of parents out there who make sure to tell their children how much they love them every morning and who silently pray/hope that their child is safe at school that day. We repeat this ritual every day because we are all living in fear of the gun nuts and their sick culture.
bystander
I was glad to see a couple of things on HuffPo today. One was a pushback on the “scahndahl…untrustworthy” baloney propagated by the repubs. The other pointed out that, thanks to Clinton’s faulty recollection of her husband’s predecessors failure to respond to the AIDS crisis, we were talking about AIDS again. (We also got to recollect that it was Bill who pushed forward with a national response to AIDS.)
Voted for HRC in the primary in 2008 and looking forward to voting for her again and again.
ItinerantPedant
I have the same thoughts Betty, right down to the part where my mom died before she got to see a woman as President. But I confess to, like another commenter, being unable to separate Bernie’s supporters sanctimonious self-righteousness from the candidate. (To be fair, the candidate is not 100% innocent on that count.)
Eric U.
now Hillary is doomed, sheesh. Cole was first, now Betty, it’s doom I say
Mandalay
I admit to wavering on Bernie because his finger wagging disgusted me so much, but I’ve fallen in love all over again:
Anyone who tells Emanuel to fuck off is OK by me.
Ryan
@SiubhanDuinne: Totally agree and I have the exact same story and outcome.
Eunicecycle
Amen, Betty. I will enthusiastically cast my vote for Hillary Clinton tomorrow in Ohio. I also voted for her in 2008, but I was happy to vote for President Obama in November. I think he has been a wonderful president and I will miss him so much. Can’t wait to see him out campaigning once again for our nominee, whoever he or she is!
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
Not sure if I can take anymore of the Baud!iacs fighting with the Sandernistas.
MomSense
@Mandalay:
Ok but after he tells Rahm to fuck off, what next? We can’t just be a protest party. We have to govern effectively.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
The true revolutionary act is to vote for a white woman who embraces the black man, figuratively and literally, in this racist as fuck country. That’s what motivates me.
Steve from Antioch
New in some ways, perhaps, but not others:
http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/07/31/hillary-clinton-releases-8-years-of-tax-returns/
Spinoza is my Co-pilot
I like Hillary, will vote for her in the primary and volunteer for phone banking/canvassing/GOTV for the general, and will be happy to have her as our first woman president.
But she really should stop shouting so much. She sounds unusually annoying when she raises her voice, which she does far too much. I have a hard time listening to more than small amounts of her speechifying only because her (too often) raised voice is so irritating. It’s not because she’s a woman, it’s because this particular person Hillary Clinton — who happens to be a woman — simply sounds terrible when she shouts. Seriously, inside voice. We’re adults here, we don’t have to be yelled at.
I could be wrong, and maybe it’s just me, but I think it’s a detriment to her campaigning.
FlipYrWhig
@Southern Beale: A lot of my age-adjacent and older female friends — I’m 44 — have been talking about how unfair they think it seems for the world to have been telling them, and Hillary Clinton, that there’s a certain way to navigate these waters, not to come on too strong, etc.; only to find, in the case of Hillary Clinton and by proxy for them personally, that having played by those rules and pressed that flesh and worked within the system makes them compromised and calls their integrity into question. There is no schlumpy, shouty Brenda Sanders because to get where she wanted to go Brenda Sanders would have gritted her teeth and forced herself to be “respectable” instead. That doesn’t put Hillary Clinton, human being, beyond reproach, but it puts Hillary Clinton, public figure, in an interesting light, IMHO.
MomSense
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Protecting our legacy and the progress we made is key for me.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@MomSense:
That’s implicit in my comment. The fact that Hillary has explicitly stated that she wants to nail down all of President Obama’s hard work is all I care about, and the fact that it will take a white woman to do it, is the cherry on top.
ETA: A first woman president following on the first black president is the Democratic legacy. I’m a Democrat, and this is our coaliition, and what we are and do.
Brachiator
I want a woman in the White House, too, damn it. But damn, I wish it were a better candidate than Clinton, who I think is well qualified, but not incredibly qualified. Not by a long shot.
But she is also better than most other people who have run for the office. And she is better than many people who have been elected to the office.
On the other hand, part of me does not want Sanders anywhere near the White House. He is a nice guy and has raised a lot of good issues, but he has not yet shown me that he could govern or lead the country. Maybe this might change. But for now, his biggest claim to fame is that he sat in a purity puddle and contemplated not being a Democrat for 25 years.
I think either is electable. I think both are vulnerable to a Trump challenge, not because Trump is qualified, but because the country is going nuts.
And yeah, I would vote for Sanders or Clinton in a heartbeat, whoever gets the nomination. There is no question or hesitation on this point.
ETA: I don’t care how annoying any candidate’s supporters are. I ain’t voting for them.
FlipYrWhig
@Brachiator: I think I have a similar take on Sanders. I think he would like to get elected President to finish proving a point, to wit, that people who believe what he believes can be elected President. ETA: And that would be an amazing development for American politics. A true seismic shift. But I’m not sure he’d be good at actually _being_ President. He seems too snappish and impatient.
Mandalay
@MomSense:
It’s a noble goal in and of itself. Every American should do it at least once in their life. Anything that helps to kill the political career of that vile parasite is a wonderful thing.
MomSense
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Well said.
Elie
Thank you Betty for an excellent and clearly heart felt statement on why you are supporting Hilz. I too will support her in the WA caucus in two weeks.
While I would support Bernie if he is the nominee, I really don’t like the man as a candidate. I think he is very arrogant and is basically using a device that unfortunately Trump is using: “don’t worry about the details, I am strongly for and against such and such and it doesn’t matter about my supporting down ticket races or anything else. Because I Bernie support x, its gonna happen. Period.”
Hillary is by far not only the best candidate for the Presidency, but the only one with serious skills, experience and temperament to do it well. I admire her strength and do not see her as “stiff”, but careful — like Obama in some ways. I am glad Bill is mostly staying away. He makes her job much harder, though I know he does not intend to. I think people just automatically assume she is going to be another Bill. I think they will be surprised — she is her own woman. I think she is gonna give ol Trump a whuppin that he will never forget and has never experienced before, though clean up will be a bitch.
Go Hilz!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Brachiator: in an odd way, I think Sanders might be stronger against Trump, but as with any hypothetical Sanders candidacy, that counts on the voters more or less ignoring foreign policy, which I don’t think will happen. Waving your hands and saying you were against the Iraq War isn’t going to cut it this time around. IMHO.
different-church-lady
Not trying to beat you up, Betty, but…
I’ve seen this in other places, and I’m kind of confused by the idea that the way to protest money in politics is to send a politician money.
Kathleen
I early voted for Hillary in the Ohio primary on Saturday, and I was surprised at the emotion and pride I felt when I filled in the blank next to her name (Hamilton County has paper ballots). I think she is the only candidate with the skills and experience required to be an effective President. She may not be viewed as glamorous or shiny or “inspiring”, but she’s intelligent, curious, willing to learn and change behaviors if required. She’s also tough and resilient, and she how vile, shameless, and bereft of soul her Republican opposition is (remember when everyone laughed when she talked about the right wing conspiracy in the 90’s?) She also enjoys the process of governing, unlike the Republicans who claim they hate government and want to abolish it, particularly those whose only jobs have been in government.
MomSense
@Mandalay:
Rahm is killing his own career just fine all by himself. We have to make some progress on climate change, gun violence prevention, wages, infrastructure, and lots of other issues. Why waste a second on settling scores? Waste of fucking time.
Bob In Portland
I pointed this out in an earlier thread. She is the second-least popular candidate in the race, yet people here at Balloon Juice see no difference in the Democratic candidates. Okay. It’s not just the right or left that don’t like her. Independents don’t like her either.
Some people here can’t even repeat complaints about Clinton, as if the criticisms have dissolved by the time they reach their ears.
stinger
@Southern Beale: A woman president? That’s the kind of “establishment” I’ve been waiting for all my life.
WarMunchkin
I’m dreading my coin flip moment. Knowing me, I will feel guilty – not happy, not relieved – no matter which candidate I vote for in the end.
max
I’ve followed the Berniacs vs Hillbots clashes at this blog and elsewhere, and I resolved not to allow the behavior of overly enthusiastic supporters color my opinions of the candidate, and that remains the case.
I listen to some of that stuff, but I ignore the (supposed) larger implications, one way or the other.
It’s not everything, but it’s not nothing either.
Sure. Vote however you want – it’s your vote.
My husband is going to cancel my Hillary vote by voting for Bernie tomorrow, and I will even remind him to do so. But it turns out I’m with her…and I have been all along.
Greg Sargeant said something odd – that you couldn’t tell how someone would be as president from their record. Nonsense. Their record usually tells you most of what they’re going to do. It won’t tell you how their Presidencies will go, but it’ll tell you in what direction they’ll try to move.
Hillary has been staunch on women’s rights and pretty hawkish on defense. Which effectively neutralize each other. Bernie voted the way I would have, much of the time, so I voted for him. That’s that.
I’m not expecting anything for myself out of it (never much asked and got less), but I hold the wan hope that the Gen Y/Z generations will be treated somewhat better than the Gen X crowd was.
max
[‘We’ll see.’]
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@Baud: If ya have some time you should watch these shows for the schadenfreude.
1) the GOP sympathizing beltway media beside themselves (Jonathan Martin in a deep depression) that Trump sinking the party on last week’s Washington Week
http://www.pbs.org/video/2365683043/
2) Fareed Zakaria and Krugman just carpet bomb the wingnuts, callin them racist & extremists. (Bonus Obama’s Iran gambit victorious)
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3w6a8a_cnn-s-gps-show-global-public-square-fareed-zakaria-full-03-06-16_shortfilms
different-church-lady
@Eric U.: Calm down. Bill Kristol hasn’t endorsed her yet.
Elie
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
I hear that! Great comment….
SiubhanDuinne
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
I love this so much, I want to marry it and bear its children.
goblue72
Like this “decision” was any fucking surprise.
Also too – Clinton Democrats were promoting income inequality.
Bob In Portland
@Mandalay: Really? Finger-wagging?
FlipYrWhig
@different-church-lady:
Sending a politician your clean money makes it less necessary for her to have to go in search of other people’s dirty money.
Betty Cracker
@WarMunchkin: Ha, I’m a similarly tortured soul! I got a call from a Bernie GOTV operative today, and I felt so guilty! He didn’t even ask me whom I was voting for, though. Whew!
oldgold
@Brachiator: “His biggest claim to fame is that he sat in a purity puddle and contemplated not being a Democrat for 25 years.”
Good stuff. I like to vote for Democrats in Democratic Party primaries.
Turgidson
@Mary:
[aimless rant ahead]
In 2008 I was an early Obamabot and, while I was excited to elect a woman president back then, I didn’t want it to be Hillary. Partly because I thought she wasn’t all that much more qualified than Obama (despite her flogging the “experience” thing to death, sometimes disingenuously), partly because something seemed unseemly about the wife of a former president being the first woman president. Mostly because I just liked and trusted Obama a lot more (and still do). I still maintain that her campaign (and sometimes Hillary herself) went into 2008 expecting a coronation, and their desperate and occasionally ugly attempts to cut Obama down once he took the lead were a result of that expectation. But things change, people change.
She started winning me over by supporting Obama despite what had to have been some very raw feelings, and then being a tireless and effective Secretary of State on his, and our, behalf. I came to realize as the braindead dolt wingnuts started firing up the Wurlitzer on BENGHAAAAAZI that I had actively become a cheerleader for her. She’s had more political shit flung at her than almost anyone in the history of our nation (certainly more than any non-president, I’d think). She’s still out there, taking the abuse with grace, holding her head high and going about her business. While she still has hangers-on in her orbit that embarrass her or her campaign more often than I’d prefer, she seems far more confident and at ease as a candidate – and the worst of the worst – Penn, Wolfson – are absent or at least kept away from cameras and mics.
She knows the issues backwards and forwards, and even before Bernie emerged as a real candidate, her policies were more solidly left of center than I had expected. I’m still a little anxious about her tendency towards hawkishness abroad, but I think she’d continue the Obama tradition for rigorousness if she was making the final calls on things (and not just getting a yes or no vote on a bill she didn’t write). I actually got excited by her candidacy.
Maybe if she hadn’t been running against Obama the first time, I would have seen her qualities more easily. I definitely got invested in seeing her negatively for a while in 2008. But after the Obama years, where Candidate Obama’s hopeful speeches gave way to “Professor Obama” attempting to explain nuance and complexity to a hopelessly ADD country, I’m enjoying Hillary’s methodical style more than I did before. And much as I wish it wasn’t necessary, I’m comforted knowing that the Clinton team will enter the political battlefield in the general election and once in office properly armed…to the teeth. Beating back the mindless hate and proud idiocy the GOP is offering is too important to be adhering to rules of civility when you know your opponents will not feel so constrained.
And I feel foolish, now, for holding it against her that she is married to Bill Clinton. She’s as competent and qualified for the job as any candidate, male or female, has been for a long time. If Hillary was only the frontrunner because she happened to be Bill’s wife, I’d find that troubling. But that’s so obviously not the case with her. She works as hard and is as smart as anyone. It might just be that this last, hardest glass ceiling in America needs to be broken by someone with Hillary’s connections. So be it. She’s proven to be worthy of the office on the merits.
For the record, I like Bernie Sanders just fine and for the most part do not hold the douchebaggery of his most vocal and aggressive supporters against him. But I don’t think he’s temperamentally suited to the office, and I’m put off by his lack of interest in helping other Democrats get elected. The foot soldiers of his “revolution” will turn on him or get disillusioned, just as they did to Obama, the moment Speaker Paul Ryan tells him to take his single payer plan and shove it up his ass. And no amount of millenials protesting outside the Capitol Building will convince the fucking Zombie-Eyed Granny Starver to put down his copy of Atlas Shrugged and allow votes on the legislation Bernie wants to see enacted. His “revolution” will require 60 liberals in the Senate and 218 liberals in the House to have any chance, yet he hasn’t raised dick for the party. That’s a problem.
/rant
Linnaeus
I haven’t yet decided who I’m going to caucus for in a couple of weeks – there’s good reasons, IMHO, for me to go either way.
Juju
I’m in NC and I early voted for Hillary Clinton as well. I like Sanders and I think he is a great senator, but I have some issues with him. He’s a bit more sexist or unaware, than I thought he’d be. When he pulled and pulls that finger pointing crap he loses me. As a woman who has had the occasional finger pointed in my face that way, it ticks me off seeing him do it to Secratary Clinton again and again. I also have issues with him running as a democrat after being a socialist all these years, and then expecting support from the super delegates. That seems unrealistic to me. It’s also seems extremely opportunistic. He’s also 74, and would be 75 by the time he takes office, if he were to win. I think he’s too old. I have my doubts as to wether Clinton should run for two terms if she is elected. I can’t see Sanders running for two terms. I’m not sure he’d make it through one term. My mother is 83. I keep an eye on her and all her elderly friends. I just don’t see anyone close to that age being a viable candidate. I know I’m in a minority here, but that’s how I feel. Look at what being president has done to Obama. My biggest fear is that Sanders would lose. As I stated, I live in NC. I hear a lot about how he’s a socialist and how that would be bad for the country. I don’t agree, but there are people in this state who are very wary of the socialist. I think Clinton could win NC. I don’t think Sanders could. I have no documentation, it’s just the vibe I get around here in the eastern part of the state. I also have health insurance for the first time in my adult life. I don’t want a republican or Trump to win. I’d lose my insurance.
I lived in Arkansas during part of Bill Clinton’s first term as governor. The complaint about Hillary back then was that she was a big hippy. I think that’s her nature, but she’s in a situation now where she’s damned if she does, damned if she doesn’t, so she does the best she can while being judged on a more harsh scale than any other candidate running. It’s true. She is really nice in person. I’ve met her twice. She’s a lovely human being.
StellaB
I signed on to the BHO campaign from the very beginning in 2007, but I still felt bad when HRC lost. I’m happy to support her this time. Bernie may be a hair to the left of her, but he’s been a D for about a month. While he was refusing to join my party, she was taking the rain of sh*t that the Rs were hurling her way. I’ll take a proud Democrat over a reluctant Democrat any day.
Mandalay
@different-church-lady:
No wonder you are confused; you have chosen to deliberately misunderstand a very straightforward issue so you can seem superior.
Ruckus
Betty, I’m an old white guy and I think we should have a woman president and that it’s about damn time.
But this is just one item on my list of why I think Clinton should be president. First and most important, I think she can do the job. Second is her competence, now. I didn’t feel this way 8 yrs ago and voted so. But she has grown, a lot. She has polished her CV sure but she did so by actually doing a good job as SoS, and for the person who beat her. She’s a proven team player, in a business that requires this above many other traits, even though the job requires an ultimate decision maker. Third, if you review what she has said over the last 25 yrs, not what others have said about her she’s been pretty consistent over the years.
Is she perfect? Of course not, she is after all a human and we all have failings. Why does she have to be perfect when none of the men I’ve seen run in my decades have been and some have been so far from that as to be distant outliers on the negative side of the curve?
gwangung
@Bob In Portland: As an empiricist, I note they BEHAVED alike 93% of the time . Given that I rarely listen to what people say, but look at what they do, I have my criterion.
jl
@Betty Cracker: I figured you were going Bernie. Your sketches made him seem so young and handsome. I figured that was a ‘tell’ Oh well.
Glad you made you your mind.
Chyron HR
@goblue72:
I forget, are you the “Why are ni**ers too dumb to love Sanders like I do” guy or the “I love the Vietnam war because it killed those fucking boomers” guy?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: Have the Putin-Enviers figured out how his pulling troops from Syria is because Obama is weak?
Elie
@Juju:
I also think Bernie is too old and have said so many times. Hillary just passes. This President job is a bitch and a much younger man, Obama, looks like it.
chopper
@reality-based (the original, not the troll):
sanders was able to sneak that stuff in mostly because people aren’t paying too much attention. as president he would not get that benefit; everything he says and does will be under a republican microscope. no more ‘sneaking’ stuff into bills, not that he could do that anyways as prez.
joel hanes
I want Clinton to win.
I want Sanders to make such a strong showing that it scares the pants off Nancy Pelosi, and ultimately produces the result that we don’t have people like Steve Israel in charge of the DCCC, and Debbie Wasserman-Schulz in charge of the DNC.
seaboogie
@Bob In Portland:
You’re going to need to show your math on this statement.
FlipYrWhig
@StellaB: I also can’t help thinking that Sanders has the luxury of being ensconced at the left because his life in electoral politics has been entirely in Vermont. It’s like that old expression about how you can’t be sure of your faith if you’ve never been tempted.
Mary
@Turgidson: Yup yup yup. +1 to everything.
jl
Become a Trump security warden, protect Whitelife, arrest violators!
Trump Camp: Don’t Blame Us! The Protesters ‘Are In Violation’
“It is the protestors and agitators who are in violation, not Mr. Trump or the campaign,” according to the statement.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-campaign-protesters-blame
Linnaeus
@Brachiator:
That’s really not fair to Sanders. He’s done more than that.
Applejinx
You do you, Betty: I sympathize with many of these arguments. If it was Warren I’d be banging the drum about First Woman President and in some ways that’s a major breakthrough.
Margaret Thatcher was a woman too, and I personally don’t feel Hillary is worthy of your trust, but here’s the secret: it still matters even if the person has clay feet. We had a first black president, and some things got more visible, and things look worse but you’d have to be an idiot to think times like the 50s were all civilly righteous.
By the same token, we won’t necessarily but MIGHT have a first woman president, and what’s important there is not Hils herself but that in general I think more women belong in leadership positions than men. If that makes me sexist or reverse-sexist so be it: I think men currently suck at governing. I worked for women in the Bernie campaign in NH and it was awesome and we won. Women are driving that campaign forward, at least half the organizers and staffers I knew of were women.
If Hillary does yet another awful gaffe revealing who she really is between now and your election day, please notice. But if not, rock on. Most of us will survive this, we survived Nixon and two Bushes and Hillary’s husband and if we pull together most of us will survive her.
Not nearly as shameful as having to survive President Trump, just sad and disillusioning :)
Mandalay
@StellaB:
I support Bernie, but there are many valid criticisms to be made against him. Yours is the most powerful of them all.
Applejinx
@Chyron HR: Don’t be that horrible, please.
StellaB
@Bob In Portland: She’s got high unfavorables because she’s well known and she’s spent twenty five years living in a hail of Republican mud. Sanders is a relatively unknown senator from a small state. If he were to become the candidate, he’ll be hit with 24/7 communist/socialist/Marxist labels and invented scandals and his unfavorable rating will soar.
One of the arguments against HRC in 2008 was that the Obamas wouldn’t be subject to so much crap. The Clintons were said to have engendered all the hatred they’ve endured because of their Christmas list, random murders, and unthinking comments about cookie baking. Michelle Obama was going to keep her head down, be a mom, and spend eight years free of criticism while the Rs wouldn’t possibly be able to criticize the first African-American president without sounding like bigots. How’d that prediction work out?
jl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
” Have the Putin-Enviers figured out how his pulling troops from Syria is because Obama is weak? ”
Interesting that the Russian troop pull-out was announced just a few days after Assad forged ahead trying to ignore a Russian-Iranian proposal on long term peace deal. Maybe Putin is sending Assad a message: ‘Nice mini-Syria rump Assad enclave we carved out for you, but if you don’t want it, I guess we’ll just go home now. Sorry if we bothered you.”
Edit: Apparently it was a Russian-Iranian proposal that US at least half-way liked. I learned about when I heard Kerry complaining in a news report that Assad was being obstructionist in the talks.
Elie
@Applejinx:
Just FYI, Warren does not have 1/3 of Hillary’s experience. She has been a professor in an academic career most of her life…
Aleta
When my grandmother was born, women didn’t have the right to vote. I believe Hillary was a strong feminist and committed social justice activist “for her time,” from way before she agreed to go down Bill’s path with him. When I look at some of my friends, and my two sisters, and my mom, Hillary’s willingness to compromise and adjust in order to keep going are not one bit unusual. In the context of when she came of age and what she had to do to make politics her career, I think she is incredibly strong and admirable, and (in any context) very smart and resilient. I think practicing politics changes the brain and one’s responses (just as physics and improv and art and childcare and bodywork do). In 1991-2, I was impressed with how open she was about relatively radical (in the context of electoral politics) ideas and appearance. She got squashed and “set straight” and had to morph this way and that, and I believe that happened to a lot of women in public professions, starting from at least 100 years before then.
Elie
@StellaB:
Good comment but Bob has been given that information many times before. He is not interested in any argument but his own.
Mandalay
@Bob In Portland:
Yes, really; a foible of mine. I also couldn’t watch Tim Russert because he’d stab his finger at the camera when his show was going to a break. I find finger wagging and pointing rude, crude and offensive – no idea why.
jl
@StellaB: I lean Bernie, but I think we have to face the fact that some unfavorables are manufactured when a person is in politics. And I think that applies to HRC. HRC can change them to some extent by her performance on campaign trail (not saying that she definitely will, but that she can).
Anyone who thinks Sanders’ negatives won’t go up during general is kidding themselves.
Note that as part of Trump’s mendacious attempt to blame Sanders’ campaign for violence at his rallies, he leaps over corporate media nonsense about Sanders being a command economy socialist and calls him a Communist.
seaboogie
I feel as so many of you have stated in this post about why I am behind Hillary.
Also – here’s another thought. Imagine if Hillary hadn’t been FLOTUS to Bill’s POTUS, but instead had simply been Senator and then SOS to a previous presidential rival. Big-time policy wonk. Ready to stick a thumb in the eye of the NRA. Maybe a bit too hawkish – but imagine the lady’s a dude. I think that the dominant word in that word cloud diagram would be “Substance”. Experience would feature pretty prominently too.
SiubhanDuinne
@Kathleen:
Electronic voting machines in Georgia, but I had similar emotions, which rather took me aback. Had not expected to feel such a surge of pride. I loved being able to vote for Obama in 2008 (and 2012, of course), but now I feel I have a little better visceral understanding of what so many African-Americans felt eight years ago.
Brachiator
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
That someone was against the Iraq War or the Wall Street Bailout is now a historical note. What are they going to do with respect to Turkey, Syria, Kenya, Sudan, Pakistan, North Korea or any other problems developing now?
What are they going to do to improve the economy, help small businesses, consumers, workers?
The endless dithering in the debates over the past is a waste of my time. An even greater waste is some of the nonsense trying to hold Hillary Clinton responsible for the BILL Clinton Administration.
Neither was Hillary Clinton the architect of the Iraq War.
In the 2008 presidential debate, Obama talked some of what he might do with respect to Pakistan. He was looking forward. I want more of this from the candidates.
Applejinx
@Elie: Yes, but I don’t care. I feel Warren’s rhetoric suggests what she would do as President (which she doesn’t want to be).
My concern is that many career politicians with tons of experience getting things done in Washington have successfully done horrible things or assisted in doing horrible things, often for idealistic reasons. That’s never more true than in economics, where they murder the country while thinking that they’re doing good because some of their friends are prospering.
Some kinds of experience (dare I say ‘habit’) we don’t need.
low-tech cyclist
I want Hillary to be the Dem nominee, but I may vote for Bernie come April 26 (Marylander here) just to keep the heat on. His message about the danger of plutocracy is an important one, and the longer he stays in the race, the more Hillary will have to take it seriously.
I remember how John Edwards moved the discussion in 2008 (in 2007 really) not just on poverty, but on universal health care and global warming. He forced them onto both Hillary’s and Obama’s agendas, and whatever his personal flaws, I think he’s one of the people we owe a debt of gratitude to, because we have something that’s at least working towards UHC. I want leaders like Hillary who are capable and responsible, but I also want people around who are capable of pressing them to do the right thing. Bernie’s doing that.
And I wouldn’t give up on a Dem Congress just yet. I think we’re gonna win back the Senate, and assuming Trump or Cruz is the nominee, there’s a decent chance – 1 in 5, maybe? – of retaking the House, too. Assuming the Dems see the opportunity and TRY to win the House, of course. (Fuck DWS with a rusty entrenching tool.)
jackmac
I’m voting for Sanders on Tuesday in Illinois, my wife is for Hillary. I identify as a Democratic Socialist and it’s my chance to vote for a candidate I more wholeheartedly agree with. But I’ll enthusiastically vote for the Democratic nominee in November.
Separately, I’m bringing my soon-to-be 17-year-old daughter into the booth and will let her do the honors by punching for Sanders. (She feels the Bern)!
PaulWartenberg2016
I’m NPA by habit, so that means I can’t vote in this primary. But I’ve decided that if I had to, I’d have gone for Hillary.
I actually think she’s mellowed out some since 2008. She worked in Obama’s administration with skill – despite the overblown scandal-mongering of the wingnuts – and showed she could temper her Active-Negative tendencies.
Brachiator
@Linnaeus:
Fair point and good article. But it’s coming late, and neither Sanders himself nor his surrogates have given a clear picture of his approach to government.
Amir Khalid
@low-tech cyclist:
It seems to me that people who think this way risk outsmarting themselves. If you want Hilary/Bernie to be the nominee, vote for Hillary/Bernie. Otherwise, your tactical vote for the candidate you don’t prefer could end up handing the nomination to them, and not to the candidate you do prefer.
Thrasius
I don’t post often but these sentiments echo mine exactly. I have two younger sisters. And I will be an uncle of a niece next month. So in the South Carolina primary, I voted Hillary.
Baud
@Amir Khalid: It sort of does assume that other voters won’t act that way.
Elie
@Applejinx:
Politics is the profession of getting things done with competing interests and factions. Like democracy, politics are messy and when exposed to the light, frequently make people shudder because of all the less than idealic sausage in policy with competing interests. I’ll take it any day over the tirany of the perfect who are suspicious of all who do not see the world the same way. The Khmer Rouge were idealists who wanted a clean and high minded Combodia without any “elite” who they blamed for poverty and everything else. I like politics. I want more citizen involvement, more noise, not less. I am suspicious of untested ivory tower types…
Mandalay
@Elie:
Someone could have said a very similar thing about candidate Obama eight years ago.
While he was smoking pot in college and being a community organizer she was drafting legislation to ban flag burning, coming up with a health care plan that collapsed under his own weight, and supporting the invasion of Iraq.
The experience argument cuts both ways.
Percysowner
This describes me to a tee! I already voted for Hillary, and when she lost Michigan and the media started talking about how Bernie could win, I wanted to cry because I want a good woman to be President. I’ve donated to both campaigns mostly because I believe in Bernie’s message and I want it out front in center, but I believe that Hillary will be a good President and accomplish much.
Kathleen
@SiubhanDuinne: I know! I was very happy to vote for President Obama twice and I’ve always admired Hillary but I try to maintain a level of detachment about candidates (though I have turned into an Obot these past few years and I say that proudly). And I’m not one to want a woman to be President just because she’s a female. So, yeah, I surprised myself there, and it’s nice to know you felt the same way!
Tim C.
Yeah, I also have a fondness for Bernie, but there’s a reason most Republicans have held their fire on him for the whole campaign. He’s the one the view as the weaker candidate. Doesn’t mean the GOP is right about that of course, but only white hot ball of rage and hate, (i.e. Trump) is attacking Bernie. There is a reason for that.
Now, it’s totally fair to have a disagreement about which candidate is better for the general for a lot of reasons, but if you think Bernie is somehow not going to get the same treatment HRC has gotten for the last 25 years? I want whatever you are snorting/drinking/injecting/inhaling.
Elie
@Mandalay:
Sure — to some extent, though he had been both a state senator and US senator by the time he was elected President. But when I have a choice and I like the choice, that is how I decide. Obama won me over at that time. Since then, Hilz has increased and deepened her experience…
Cacti
While I disagree with Clinton’s Iraq war vote, it’s striking to me how much more vehemently this has been held against her than John Kerry, Joe Biden, or John Edwards, who also voted “aye” on the AUMF.
Scott Alloway
@Ruckus: As another old white guy, I agree with you. Obot last time, H this. Most people don’t understand what machine politics in the 50s and 60s was like, let alone an “establishment” candidate. See the Dodd, Ribicoff, Dempsey Dem machine in CT in that era. I grew up with that.
Amir Khalid
@Elie:
Sorry to go grammar-Nazi on you, but this has always bugged me. “The Khmer Rouge” is, strictly speaking, one particular person. One should call the group “the Khmers Rouges” with the plural esses, even though they are silent in French. But to my knowledge, among English-language publications only The Economist observes this nicety.
sparrow
After the stories from Honduras came out (you know, where Hillary’s state dept. supported the overthrow of a democratically elected president by a right-wing junta which has murdered activists by the hundreds), I realized my intuitive distrust of her was 100% spot-on. (http://www.thenation.com/article/chronicle-of-a-honduran-assassination-foretold/)
People keep holding up Sanders as some kind of left-mirror-image of Trump, but I actually think it’s Hillary. Both are only in it for themselves.
Sanders is FAR from a perfect candidate, but I’ll vote for him over a neoliberal warmonger any day of the week. Just so fucking over lesser-evilism.
Baud
@Cacti: I agree.
p.a.
Hey Betty I can’t win for losing: my freerange egg source (he doesn’t do it for ideological/environmental/health reasons; he got the first few hens for free) told me this week besides their forage the hens’ favorite food is cheetos. “Oh they love it. I think the eggs taste a little cheesy.” I haven’t noticed that, but those beautiful orange yolks… Oh well he gives ’em to me for free.
Not mine!?
ThresherK
@Betty Cracker: Well put. I count myself weary of Berniebros who never heard of Benghazi!!! until all of us were very over it.
Hey, and did you know the San Francisco Lady Dons are in the NCAAs?
“Don” is the Spanish and Italian honorific for male nobility, now an informal term of respect; “Doña” is the female equivalent.
Mandalay
@low-tech cyclist:
For the first time in her disgusting political life, DWS has an opponent: https://timcanova.com/
moonbat
I was a Bernie supporter early on in this cycle, but it occurred to me several weeks ago that Bernie, perhaps because he started as a protest candidate, has not does his homework on policy and that simply will not do. I’m not interested in just in railing against the corrupt system, I’m interested in getting things done that actually help people. Pragmatism may be boring, but Obama was able to do more for the people of this country with a pragmatic approach than most of the Democratic presidents of my lifetime. HRC seems ready to defend that record and carry its accomplishments forward. That’s why I’m voting for her.
Bob In Portland
@seaboogie: The likeability polls. I think you can find them at Real Clear Politics. She comes in second to Trump as least likeable. I guess my point is there are gaps between what many of the BJers feel towards Clinton and what a majority of Americans feel. It’s not just the Republican mud from twenty years ago. Or Benghazi. I’ve never seen anyone here defend Clinton’s role in the Honduran coup. Why not? Not so important?
@gwangung: Yes, but someone could say that someone and John Wayne Gacy behaved the the same way 93% of the time, except for killing and burying of kids below the floorboards.
@StellaB: But people on the left don’t think she killed Vince Foster. They think she pushed the wars in Syria and Libya. They see her and Nuland and know that Kagan is nearby.
Anyway, the responses pretty much answers the question.
Mike E
Electing the first woman, or, Jewish president after the first African American president would be a tremendous achievement, something I’d cherish for the rest of my days. I’m fine with either outcome, because it will mean we beat back the barbarians again.
Betty Cracker
@jackmac: I have a 17-year-old daughter who will be able to vote in the general but is too young to vote in the primary. She’s been all over her dad and me to vote for Hillary!
Patricia Kayden
Both Sanders and Clinton are great but I see Clinton as more capable of attacking Trump (or whichever other Republican wins the nomination). She’s weathered Republican attacks for decades now and knows how to give as much as she gets. Sanders is such a gentleman that I can just see him being swamped with attacks and refusing or not being able to push back.
I’m not going to vote for either of them in the Maryland primary since both are great and I’ll wait to vote for the one who is the Democratic nominee in November. But good luck with your choice, Betty.
SiubhanDuinne
@Kathleen:
Assuming she wins the nomination, I expect to have tears prick my eyes when she gives her acceptance speech (or when whatever state puts her delegate count over the top, or maybe both) and I expect to flat-out bawl with happiness on Election Night when her Electoral College numbers go over the top. Assuming all these things happen.
Brachiator
@Mandalay:
Sounds like they both had good years.
SiubhanDuinne
@Amir Khalid:
Never knew that. Interesting, thanks!
Bg
Wow, Betty, this is exactly what happened when I voted Sunday.
Applejinx
@Mandalay: OH FUCKING HELL TO THE YEAH
>immediately donates $10
I’m going to look like a dope if it’s really Rick Scott in an ill-fitting mask ;D
Iowa Old Lady
It’s funny how many of us surprised ourselves by being emotional over actually, really voting for a woman to be the D’s presidential candidate. I don’t know what that means.
J R in WV
@debbie:
In many if not most states it would be illegal for you to be “made to work late” if it interferes with your ability to vote.
You can leave, go vote, and come back to finish something up.
You could vote on your lunch break.
But you gotta vote!!
Tell ’em you gotta vote, and what THEY want on election day doesn’t count for much. But you don’t have to tell them that, just feel it, and go do it. Then what they want will matter again.
Mandalay
O/T Our great President continues to make wingnut heads explode….
A Jewish transgender woman born in Honduras? So much there for the wingnuts to hate!
Applejinx
@Iowa Old Lady: It means it’s about time. I may not like or trust the particular woman in question, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s time.
It’s also time to whack the bankers, payday-lenders, and plutocrats.
Looks like no matter what we’ll have at least SOME chance of doing something momentous.
Unabogie
I haven’t read the comments yet, but this post captures my feelings entirely. I was on the fence for a long time, but at some point I realized that I just prefer Hillary. I think she’s just better at this. She’ll be a better president. She’ll bring more to the post. And I say this as someone who agrees with Bernie on slightly more things. I think she’s thought it all through in a way that he just can’t seem to manage. And I like people who think things through. So I like her.
Rhoda
I’m not a Hillary fan – but I’m voting for her and I am pulling for her against Bernie. His campaign has just soured me completely on voting for him in the primary; which I was considering since I always thought Hillary would lock this up.
She’s going to be a good president. She’s a little too hawkish and that freaks me out; but the Supreme Court is on the line and I honestly think Bernie would get killed in a general election. I really believe when the right wing wurlitzer was done; he might lose to even Trump. I know Hillary can win the general.
The supreme court is on the line; whoever it is I’m praying for them to win in November. The entire court is on the ballot this November; and that is going to give Trump a hell of an advantage in locking down Republicans who know what a supreme court that is corporate friendly means. They’re going to do everything they can not to lose that; the fact of that keeps me up sometimes.
Kathleen
@SiubhanDuinne: I probably will, too!
SiubhanDuinne
A couple of days ago I took one of those on-line quizzes which tell you how closely aligned you are to which candidates. I was pleased to be, I think it was up around 96-97% for both Bernie and Hillary, although in different arrays of issues. I was somewhere down in the 40s with Trump, and single digits for Rubio, Kasich, and Cruz. (Wish I could remember what organization put the quiz together. It seemed much more legitimate than the usual click-bait FB survey things, and really offered lots of pretty nuanced responses, as well as a chance to offer your own opinion if it wasn’t one of the choices.)
Baud
@SiubhanDuinne: Odd result, since both parties are the same.
Mandalay
@Elie: Fair enough. TBF I cherry picked some of her obvious failures, and none of them occurred in the past ten years.
SiubhanDuinne
@J R in WV:
O/T, but I didn’t see your wonderful bat story until today, after the thread was long dead. What a delightful story it was! (And “six stars in Orion’s Belt”? LOL!)
Eunice Aaron
@SiubhanDuinne: My sentiments exactly. thank you.
SiubhanDuinne
@Iowa Old Lady:
I think it means that it’s about fucking time. I think there’s an organic reaction to that kind of awareness, and I think it’s wonderful.
Kathleen
@Iowa Old Lady: That is an excellent question for me to ponder. In my case part of it is admiration for enduring all that she’s endured in her public life. She’s dealt with public humiliation in her personal life and constant accusations of horrible crimes. She dealt with insults to her 12 year old daughter. But she keeps on keeping on and I don’t hear her whining or complaining or playing the victim card (unlike just about every other candidate). I think she’s an amazing person. I see her winning the election comparable to a marathon runner finishing the race from hell but, though battered and bruised, managing to triumphantly cross the finish line.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
OT: Campaigning with Chris Christie, Donald Trump mocks John Katich as an absentee governor, and takes a shot at Christie while doing it! Oh I hope the Bully Boy was fuming.
also, too, Trump’s two most prominent backers: Chris Christie and Sarah Palin. Water finds its own level, as I’m sure my old Irish granny said at some point in her 90-odd years on this earth (what she never said was the truth about her age).
SiubhanDuinne
@Baud:
Heh.
debbie
@J R in WV:
Oh, believe me, I will be voting. They’ll probably expect me to work as late as I can and then rush to the polls, but I intend to leave when my shift ends at 5:00. The whole ritual of voting at my precinct is sacred to me, and I intend to mosey my way through it.
NR
@StellaB: So because the Republicans might be able to raise Bernie’s negatives, we should nominate the candidate whose negatives are already sky-high.
Right. Makes perfect sense.
Baud
@Kathleen:
99% of us would be a puddle of piss and tears.
Mike J
@ThresherK:
Regarding the earlier conversation about the Lady Dukes, I have a solution for them that doesn’t entail being the Duchesses. Adopt a great dane for a mascot and then bill themselves as the Mama Dukes.
I’ll get me coat.
Ben Cisco
Didn’t get my absentee ballot, but did get a call from the Board of Elections (on a Saturday no less) letting me know why and reminding me I can cast a ballot on Tuesday. Going to cast it for Hillary.
OT: Still dealing with the same creeping crud that felled our bloghost and others. Hot toddy(s) on tap…
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I wish Chris Hayes would ask this former Romney campaign deputy manager, now anti-Trump GOP activist, why Trump’s comments about Rosie O’Donnell and other women (to say nothing of birtherism) were okey-dokey when Willard wanted the Yam to talk an endorsement and make some robocalls
ETA: Same romney-bot: “If we lose the Senate we lose the ability to block Hillary Clinton’s Supreme Court nominees.” The norm has been changed already.
Mary G
My admiration for Hillary began to grow when she accepted the Secretary of State job. Not many male politicians could put the bruising loss of 2008 aside to take a subordinate job from their former opponent. I get a little impatient with all the fuss about her speaking fees from Wall Street when I compare her to Rahm, Tim Geithner, Eric Cantor, John Kasich, Jeb Bush, and many others, who took actual full-time jobs on Wall Street or K Street, selling access in return for millions of dollars after leaving office.
Baud
@Ben Cisco: It’s going around like crazy. Feel better.
Kathleen
Yes indeed (raises hand). I resemble that remark! It’s the same reason I admire President Obama and his family so much. They have maintained such grace and hope in the face of relentless race based hatred and disrespect, and he just continues to pursue his agenda as best he can. He hasn’t stopped, either. I’d be Full Metal Luther all the time if that happened to me.
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
WSJ reporter:
the Conster, la Citoyenne
In advance of tomorrow’s primaries, it needs to be stated over and over: Obama lost the following primaries to Hillary in 2008:
New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Florida, California, Michigan and Missouri, and many others.
How’d that “electability” thing work out for him?
Kathleen
@Baud: Sheesh. Above comment meant to be reply to you. I guess I’ve blown any chance to be hired for your campaign staff?
Baud
@Kathleen:
@Kathleen:
No worries. I figured.
LABiker
I voted for Hillary in the California primary in 2008 but still went and phone banked for Barack when he won the nomination. I’m glad to be given another opportunity to vote for her, and I hope this time it sticks. I always tell me friends I’m voting for Hillary for three reasons. First, I think she is clearly the most qualified and experienced candidate in the race. Second, my daughter will grow up knowing the big job is not out of her reach. An third, the video, running on a loop on Fox News, of Bill Clinton walking back into the White House with his wheelie luggage. It’s going to be fucking priceless.
FlipYrWhig
@Mandalay: Check out what Hillary was doing in her college days.
Kay
Imagine how heavy-handed and horrible it will be.
I hope the ads are in that code they use and there’s a gavel striking a burning Bible or something and no one outside the base has any idea what it’s about :)
Please, please use “black-robed”, Republicans. That’s terrifying
? Martin
As a general rule, if I don’t have a sufficiently strong opinion for one candidate over another, I’ll always vote for the woman/minority. Adequate representation reaps its own rewards. If it’s nothing but white males, I’ll vote against the incumbent.
This cycle I have a sufficiently strong opinion for Clinton. I’ll support Sanders if he wins, but he’s not my preference. And it’s not as though I think Clinton is a massively better candidate, but Obama was so strong, and he’s charted a course that Clinton will have to so support to a fair degree that I feel pretty good about Clinton.
debbie
@Kay:
There they go again, expending energy everywhere other than where they should.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Mary G:
Yup. Sanders supporters have turned her into some freaking COSPLAY witch, with no self-awareness about how anything works in the real world of the pool of possible presidential candidates to draw from. It’s lovely to be pure, but Bernie’s foreign policy and lack of real world accomplishments naivete is a net negative.
Betty Cracker
@LABiker: Love all three of your reasons. Well said.
ThresherK
@Mike J: I’m just tired enough that I had to read that 4x.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@? Martin:
No one has been sold out more than the AA community, yet they’re the most reliable Democratic voters. I’m with them. It’s really that simple for me, because I’m a Democrat.
Mary
@StellaB: Call me Pollyanna, but I’m always skeptical of Clinton’s unfavorable ratings. Her approval rating when she resigned as SoS was 69%, for goodness sake!
I just found this graph from Gallup, which confirms my suspicions that the public is just fickle. I feel (perhaps overly) confident she’ll win them over again. http://www.gallup.com/poll/185324/hillary-clinton-favorable-rating-one-worst.aspx
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay: Good god. I’m not one to preach for civility (I gather Marco “Rickles” Rubio is now clutching his pearls because That Man said a swear), but that is just disgusting.
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Not just supporters, I caught a few minutes of his stump speech today and he’s expanded his joke, which was actually pretty funny the first time, about releasing the transcripts of his Goldman Sachs speeches. Joining the GOP in setting the prove-a-negative standard for HRC pisses me off.
Three-nineteen
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Wow, did I screw that up. I will try and figure out what I did and post a comment that is closer to reality.
Weaselone
Depending on what happens tomorrow, it’s not impossible that we’ll have the opportunity to see Sander’s lose some of his net positive favorability before the primaries are even over. So far, Hillary’s team has treated him with kid gloves and responded in limited fashion to attacks by his proxies and the negative adds. Right now, that’s the good play as she doesn’t want to alienate Sander’s and his supporters whose votes, support and enthusiasm she would need for the general. If Sanders does well on Tuesday, the campaign could consider it necessary disabuse Sander’s supporters regarding his purity and outsider status in order to cut down on his margins in the remaining states.
Unabogie
OK, now I’ve read the comments. It’s refreshing as hell to see all you miscreants on board. I’ve been spending time at the GOS and holy shit, those people are nuts. The fact is that Hillary Clinton is the better candidate, and fuck anyone who thinks they’d rather see President Donald Trump. Selfish, childish, entitled, privileged, whiners is what they are if they don’t care about the suffering of untold millions who’d be victims under a Trump regime.
Fuck em with a rusty chainsaw.
Mike J
@ThresherK: It works better out loud.
Redshift
As Tim Kaine put it at our local office opening, the fact that she’s a woman isn’t by itself the reason to support her, but it is the reason it will be historic.
FarmerG
Sounds like my wife and I cancelling each other out in NC.
Mandalay
@FlipYrWhig: Excellent link! Thanks for that.
Even back then she was an earnest boring wonk.
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Trump attacks reporters all the time in his stump speech, because it riles up the angry mob. That will get worse too. He lies constantly and they’re starting to point that out.
eldorado
i’m going to vote for her come november, because the alternative is terrifying. but that the d side couldn’t find a better candidate for this cycle is a huge wasted opportunity. people want economic change, and mrs. clinton provides exactly zero on that score. she will do slight better on civil rights (especially for women) but her instincts on foreign policy are terrible.
too bad bernie isn’t a 50 something pol from out west.
Three-nineteen
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: OK, trying this again. I had thought that the Wikipedia delegate counts included superdelegates, but apparently they don’t.
Pledged Delegate Count Mar 11, 2008
Clinton — 1,421.5 Obama — 1,562.5
Pledged Delegate Count March 11, 2016
Clinton — 748 Sanders – 542
J R in WV
@Applejinx:
You are the person being horrible, clay feet, survived her husband… Hillary Clinton has been a successful person, her husband was the most popular president I can recall voting for, and I started voting against a Republican named Ford, a long time ago.
So I don’t think it’s fair to speak of surviving Bill Clinton’s 8 year term as president. You’re a troll for Sanders, and I wish you would find another place to get your jollies.
I should be glad for the “work” you do, I’m pretty sure you move more people towards Hillary than you do towards Bernie. I suspect you’re totally unaware of that, but there it is.
Even though, go away.
Iowa Old Lady
@Redshift: It’s like Jesse Jackson would never have voted for Alan Keyes, but he still had tears running down his face in Grant Park.
PhoenixRising
@Amir Khalid: Cambodians don’t observe that nicety either.
Probably because Khmer doesn’t pluralize nouns the way French does.
In our post-colonial era, we might decide that saying it the way the people in question do, translated into English, is equally or more correct than saying it the way the French do.
J R in WV
@jackmac:
I’m not sure that’s legal – it surely isn’t here. Bill Clinton got some static just for shaking hands with people at a polling station somewhere, IIRC we learned that could have gotten him a $20 fine.
Non-voters are way discouraged in polling stations. Something to do with organized groups “helping” people vote the correct ticket.
Applejinx
@Baud: She can really afford not to be.
But then, so can every single other candidate. Bernie used to be relatively poor, but we ourselves fixed that, now at least his campaign is just as rich as everybody else.
Don’t be fooled by the ‘mean words’ argument, all these people are so rich they don’t have to give a damn what muckrakers say about them.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Isn’t it wonderful to be able to get to be 74 years old with 35 years of elected office from a rural all white liberal state with no real accomplishments under your belt before anyone pays any attention to you? Unlike being under the microscope for over 20 years holding the two highest profile political positions possible – Senator from New York and Secretary of State for President Obama, the most consequential president of our lifetimes – where your entitlement get to snipe from the sidelines with all your progressive white bros who will take their ball and go home. PBO did more in 3 years than Bernie did in 20. Fucking miss me with that.
Applejinx
@Mary G: That too is true. You kinda have to grade ’em on a scale, though I’d rather not.
Baud
@Applejinx:
She was vilified before they became rich. She gets major props in my book for the way she’s weathered the storm.
A Ghost To Most
Welcome to the boat, Betty. Well said. I was an obot from 2004 when he spoke at the convention. I was sure of him then,and I feel sure of HRC now. Battle tested seems an understatement.
sapient
I was so mad at Hillary in 2008, but I find that this year I am loving her. I also like Bernie – it’s weird to watch the debate and know that there are two good people there, worth supporting. I just admire her for working so hard, and learning everything she possibly could.
I voted for her on Super Tuesday, and will be going public with a bumper sticker as soon as it arrives. (Most of my contributions will await the post-primaries though.)
PhoenixRising
@Applejinx: You are apparently not old enough to recall the development of the right wing noise machine, which referred to her 7th grader as ‘the White House dog’ and suggested that one of her friends from Arkansas, who took his own life in Rock Creek Park, was murdered at her behest.
Or you know those things and are such an asshole that you think politicians shouldn’t expect to the treated with basic human dignity by the opposing party–a policy that Democrats refuse to follow.
Or you’re so ignorant that you think the Republican hatefest, which has added racism to the sheer vitriol they aimed at our last Democratic president and his family, was invented 8 years ago.
You’re free to despise HRC, think her accomplishments are centrist compromises and prefer a non-existent response to the many real crises she managed at State. But can we stop with re-writing the 90s such that the victims deserved the abuse?
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Three-nineteen:
President Black Ninja figured out the delegate game without any whining from him or his supporters, because he was a Democrat and started rolling up the commitments in blocks because he was that special. Bernie’s a progressive Independent using the Democratic Party to throw President Obama and his legacy under the bus. Fuck that guy, really.
Mandalay
@Amir Khalid:
As a subscriber I just searched, and even the Economist is jumping ship.
There are indeed a handful of references to “Khmers Rouges” in the past five years, but there are also a gazillion references to “Khmer Rouge”. I suspect that The Economist’s editors have decided that both forms are permissible, but the majority of writers will inevitably (re)use the more popular form.
different-church-lady
@Mandalay:
I’m kind of confused as to what it was about my confusion that you confused for me attempting to seem superior.
Applejinx
@J R in WV: It is absolutely fair to speak of surviving Bill Clinton’s term as President (without framing it in wingnut terms) if you’re not a Third Way democrat, and while I’m not sure I’ve been around as long as you have (depends, there are many familiar names) I was here waaaaay before this one primary season. Balloon Juice got me volunteering for Obama, twice, which changed my vision of what I could do in politics.
So I’m gonna decline your invitation to make like a troll and slink away. You are wrong, and I’m one of the more concilatory Bernistas around these parts, and it’s probably my many admissions of weakness that get me piled on, which is all fine and all’s fair in crazy political blogs.
I’d point out that
I’m not arguing that in the least. She’s been outrageously successful, though not so much in policy as in personal wealth. And Bill was incredibly popular, which just goes to show that you can pander to public opinion and do really well by it. My biggest hope in a Hils presidency (which seems more or less possible depending on the context) is that she gets a clue and figures out the Third Way crap is dead and that she has to run and govern as a determined liberal, because her constituency apparently all became Socialists while she wasn’t looking.
She COULD be incredibly popular and earn a FDR-like legacy, with her ability to wield the levers of power.
I’m not seeing that happening and I resent being given a snow job about how that’s already what she is. Ask Honduras. People so easily forget that in transnational power politics these days, the corporations are quite a lot bigger than most of the countries, and the ‘safe uncontroversial path’ is already pure Shock Doctrine territory, and that’s already not okay.
different-church-lady
@FlipYrWhig: So the problem is not money in politics, the problem is the wrong people’s money in politics?
Is this the Sartre view of campaign financing: “Hell is… OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY!”
Joel
Why should you deny it? Symbolism is important. It’s a big part of Sanders’ platform and unabashedly so. It was a big part of Obama’s platform. It’s a big part of any major political platform.
different-church-lady
@
Applejinx:
No, I’m pretty sure it’s your actual statements on things, taken at face value.
Applejinx
@PhoenixRising: I don’t watch Fox News, ever, or pay attention to right wing media (or even mainstream broadcast media) ever. I haven’t had a television for um… two decades. I don’t have to be full of sympathy that someone got piled on by complete assholes, or give her tons of credit for that when I knew all the time that they were assholes not worth listening to.
BubbaDave
@Turgidson:
+1
Jim, Foolish Literalist
You’re a good representative of the Sanders campaign. I don’t mean that you’re self-righteous and obnoxious (though you are both) but you seem completely oblivious to the role of Congress in our government.
different-church-lady
@Amir Khalid:
We have a winner!
Amir Khalid
@PhoenixRising:
Well, “Khmers Rouges” isn’t a Khmer phrase so Khmer plurals don’t really enter into it. Incidentally, the phrase has exactly the same pronunciation in French as the singular “Khmer Rouge”; that may be why the singular is usually preferred in English even when the context plainly calls for the plural.
different-church-lady
@Baud:
Who are you kidding? The democrats are now to the right of the Republicans!
I know it’s so, because people keep saying it on line.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@SiubhanDuinne:
Wisdom, maybe?
Linnaeus
@different-church-lady:
The idea is that the increasing importance of money in elections grants excessive influence in the political process to wealthy donors (either collectively or individually).
different-church-lady
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
I think of that version as “Cartoon Hillary”.
Cartoon Hillary is now more real to them than Real Hillary.
If you press them on it, they’ll claim it’s because they’re pissed about Cartoon Bernie.
different-church-lady
@Linnaeus: So, clearly the solution is broke people chipping in twenty bucks whenever they can.
Snarki, child of Loki
If Hillary wins in 2016, I, for one, look forward to the Democratic nomination race in 2024 be closely fought between a black woman and a transgender latino.
And no doubt the GOP will come up with someone even MORE odious than the current crop, amazing as it sounds right now.
Linnaeus
@different-church-lady:
The solution is supporting and electing candidates who will enact policies that will curb or mitigate the disproportionate influence of wealthy donors in the political process.
different-church-lady
@Snarki, child of Loki: I’m figuring a Hillary win in the general will unleash a torrent of “Can A White Man Ever Be President Again?” articles.
different-church-lady
@Linnaeus: Which they’ll never get a chance to do unless we give them money.
Elie
@Weaselone:
Agree with you again….
Linnaeus
@different-church-lady:
Sure. But the argument is that a broader donor base of smaller donors will make it less likely that a candidate will be beholden to any one of them.
Now, you may disagree with that, but I don’t think it’s self-evidently unreasonable.
satby
@Turgidson: Great comment!
Mandalay
@different-church-lady:
Even by your own sneery standards you’re being a special kind of asshole tonight. Several posters have already explained why you are full of shit. Give it up.
The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016
At first I was thinking of voting for Sanders as a way of pulling the Democrats left. Then his more vocal supporters took his candidacy too seriously. Then he took his candidacy too seriously. Right around that time, Il Douche refused to go away. Not that the Presidency wasn’t serious before, but now shit’s really real.
We need someone serious in the big chair, and I just don’t feel that Sanders has a full grasp of what being both President of the United States and leader of the Democratic Party entails. I have too many questions about how Sanders will handle all the responsibilities being President entails. I don’t have nearly as many for Hillary Clinton.
And how great will it be to have a woman President, eh?
So, yeah, she gets my vote tomorrow. Sorry, Baud.
The Lodger
@different-church-lady: I’m wondering when we get another Episcopalian on the Supreme Court.
PST
This is my favorite Balloon Juice thread ever. I read every comment. My wife and I both have to be away from Illinois tomorrow, so we both cast early ballots for Clinton. We will be at opposite ends of North Carolina in the morning; I wish we could vote again here. I’m another man in his 60s who voted Obama in 2008 and happily vote for Clinton now with the conviction that I’m still working for the same goals. Many of the comments captured my feelings, so I won’t be more repetitious than I can help. Clinton wrote a book called “It Takes a Village.” I believe it takes a party. I was not always such a yellow dog Democrat as I am today, but I have grown steadily more partisan as the Republicans have grown steadily more vicious. Working within the party may require compromise, but I expect Clinton, who has always operated within the Democratic Party, to grasp the levers of power it makes available far more surely than Sanders could. I expect her to guide the party in the direction of protecting and extending the accomplishments of the last eight years. I will take a pass on the idealistic loner.
smintheus
As long as Bernie’s in the race, we’ll continue to have Larry David’s gems. So I’m voting for Bernie.
The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016
@different-church-lady: Cartoon Hillary and Cartoon Bernie. That’s exactly it.
Linnaeus
@The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016:
I’m leaning toward caucusing for Clinton for this reason.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@different-church-lady:
I’ve come to a conclusion based on many data points from social media and Bernie’s supporters here that Berniebros are either on the spectrum and/or the first adult generation of ADHD ritalin suburban white male gamers who first got made aware of politics by Bernie and got stuck on him, like they get, or they’re just straight white bros waking up to politics, and he’s a nice old white guy. He’s an avatar to them. It’s COSPLAY, and Hillary is the evil witch.
It’s time for everyone serious about real progress to put all the rancor aside, and put shoulders to the wheel for the Democrats. #UniteBlue
Linnaeus
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Are you sure you want to go there?
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Linnaeus:
Just an observation of an admittedly small sample, but I do spend a lot of time on twitter.
different-church-lady
@Mandalay: Considering the source, I’m going to take that as a compliment.
Linnaeus
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Okay, but please consider how that comment may read to someone who is on the spectrum.
NotMax
@the Conster, la Citoyenne
Surmise you’ve defined the problem right there.
different-church-lady
@Linnaeus: I agree, it’s not an unreasonable theory. But I’ve been noticing a pattern whereby there’s an immediate linkage between “Candidate X believes there’s too much money in politics” and “I made another contribution” without any seeming notice of the irony or contradiction.
different-church-lady
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
As far as I can tell, Twitter itself is on the spectrum.
ETA: Said it before, say it again: Twitter is the most efficient means mankind has yet invented to make smart people appear to be morons.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016:
Bernie will be the dog that caught the car. Hillary will be handed the keys to a smooth, smooth ride. She will be handed a turnkey operation by PBO if she’s so inclined, and why wouldn’t she be?
Linnaeus
@different-church-lady:
Maybe it is a contradiction, but I view it as a contradiction of necessity. That’s the way the game is played right now, so you have to play it before you change it.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Linnaeus:
Is that you?
patroclus
Well, I’ll address the 2009 Honduras coup: I don’t think there is much evidence at all that the U.S. was very involved in it, let alone the State Department. I realize that, with Mossadegh, Lumumba, Allende, Diem, Castro, Chavez and many more, the general assumption amongst many is that whenever there is a coup somewhere, the U.S. is responsible. But Wikileaks published a whole bunch of documents about it in 2010, and regarding U.S. “involvement” = there’s just not a lot of “there” there. The most incriminating thing I saw was an analysis by a low-level State Department employee that concluded that there was near universal Honduran condemnation of Zelaya violating Honduran Supreme Court orders, but the coup itself may also have been unconstitutional. Which is kind of what I think happened. The Honduran military stormed the Presidential residence, took Zelaya to the airport and flew him to Costa Rica. The Honduran legislature then convened and voted in the constitutional successor after Zelaya was made, by the Hondurans, to sign a resignation letter under duress. As far as I know, there isn’t any evidence at all that the U.S. was involved; other than as a bystander. And, if the U.S. was involved, it would probably have been the CIA or the military and certainly not State, who more probably would have been cautious and mealy-mouthed about it until well after the events had taken place. As such, if any blame is to be laid on the U.S., it would be Obama and probably not Hillary. Maybe we could even blame the U.S. Senate, then under Democratic control (including an Independent from Vermont).
I’ve read the wiki article and a few other websites and the issue of U.S. involvement doesn’t seem to be the major issue; rather, it was the actions of the Hondurans themselves. Maybe we’ll learn more in the future, so I don’t claim to have definitive knowledge. But at present, claims by Sanders supporters that Hillary is some sort of Kissinger seem a bit far-fetched.
That’s just my take – if Bob in Portland (or anyone) has any other evidence, by all means, enlighten us!
Miss Bianca
Betty Cracker, you rock. I know I posted this earlier in the day, but it really bears a re-post on this thread:
Why We Need Women in Power
I guess HRC’s candidacy is as emotional for me now as PBO’s was in ’08. I remember not being excited about HRC then. But now…I am. It’s time. It’s just *time* for more women to be in power. It’s time for “women’s issues” – health care, reproductive choice, family leave, education, children’s well-being – for all these things to be a priority. This will only happen when more women are elected in this country. Goddess, let it start with the first woman president!
(This is *not* intended as a slam against Sen. Sanders. He’d be an historic first as a candidate and President as well. But my heart *and* my head is with HRC).
lihtox
I have to admit that I’m going to vote for Hillary largely because I admire her determination, and I want her story to have a happy ending. Dumb reason maybe, but I’m just one vote. And yes, we need a woman in the Oval Office to break that glass ceiling, and I’m left wondering “If not Hillary, who? If not now, when?” It’s nice to think that we’ve reached the point where Elizabeth Warren, e.g., could run for President and win, that the American people have gotten past their squeamishness about a female Commander-in-Chief, but I can’t bring myself to believe it.
I have other reasons too, but I don’t need to get into all of them here.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@lihtox: I think in a Hillary-less world, Claire McCaskill would be a formidable candidate (I don’t like her, but she hits a lot of buttons for a lot of people).
patroclus
By the way, I’m voting for Clinton tomorrow, so Bob has about 12 hours to change my mind on this subject. I’m waiting…
Linnaeus
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
No, I’m not, at least as far as I know. I just try to be aware of such things, with varying degrees of success.
Amir Khalid
@patroclus:
He’ll get back to you as soon as he has shown me conclusive evidence that Ukraine shot down MH17.
George Hayduke
@seaboogie:
So, Jim Webb?
Seriously, folks…I’m looking forward to the first woman president too. I wish Warren had run, and I would have enthusiastically supported her over Sanders.
I’ll vote for Clinton if she is the nominee, but she will not be the first woman president.
Miss Bianca
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
You’re on fire tonight, woman! : )
@Turgidson:
Love it.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Linnaeus:
I’m attempting to make an honest observation without judgment. Please accept the spirit in which it was given.
John D.
@George Hayduke:
OK, I’ll bite.
Are you claiming she is not a woman, or that she will lose the general election? Both of those seem fairly far-fetched given the electoral map.
Omnes Omnibus
@George Hayduke:
True, Franklin Pierce was totally a chick.
patroclus
@John D.: Edith Wilson already holds that honor. Clinton would be the first “elected” female President.
Linnaeus
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Okay, no worries.
different-church-lady
@Linnaeus: A realistic assessment, I agree.
Miss Bianca
@Omnes Omnibus:
“True, Franklin Pierce was totally a chick.”
Goddammit, dude, right out of the gate you’re making me crack up…
George Hayduke
@John D.:
Don’t be silly.
I believe she will not win in the general election.
She fares unwell in most polls, and has very high negatives.
Miss Bianca
@Amir Khalid:
Is this true? I had no idea, none!
John D.
@George Hayduke: And the likely GOP candidate, Trump, has far higher negatives. And favorability ratings show no correlation with electoral success. And she’s ahead of Trump in most head-to-head GE matchups at the state levels (though this far out, the utility of such polling is suspect at best.)
So, again, why do you think she will not be elected?
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@George Hayduke: Yet she was more popular than Obama near the end of her term as SoS. Gallup:
Clearly, Obama should have resigned and let Hillary take over because she was more popular than he was. After all, popularity in a poll automatically translates into actual votes, amirite?
Man
y, Americans who respond to polls sure are fickle, aren’t they? In 2011 she was quite popular, but now she’s got huge negatives and the country hates her even though she’s received more votes than anyone else running for the nomination this cycle.It’s all so confusing… It’s as if nebulous words like “favorability” aren’t a predictor of who people will vote for. Maybe voting decisions are based on more than one metric. Hmm…
:-/
Cheers,
Scott.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
Most of those votes are black votes from the South, so they’re dismissed because… reasons.
Amir Khalid
@Miss Bianca:
(Nods solemnly.) Yes, it is.
bago
Hillary has been standing under the right wing puke funnel for all of my adult life, or as long as we were at war in Iraq. So, now… She has held up and only become more gracious in her service. That’s the kind of respect earned and not bought. I like the conversation that Bernie started, but Hillary will walk out of a political knife fight covered in blood and smelling of cookies. That earns my vote.
Omnes Omnibus
@bago: Smelling of cookies?
tobie
Maryland’s primary is not for another month but I look forward to casting my vote for Hillary when the times. I started out excited about Bernie Sanders’ insurgent campaign in the summer but his stump speech has grown stale over time. He lost me entirely with his comments on trade which showed the real limits of his knowledge. We’re not going to be able to get Mexico, Vietnam or Bangladesh to pay its workers anything remotely resembling a US wage or to enact strict environmental laws. The Sanders campaign simply refuses to acknowledge this dilemma. They insist we can. How? By putting tariffs on goods manufactured abroad even if this leads to rising prices in the US that weaken the economy and kill whatever manufacturing base we still have? Hillary Clinton hit the ball out of the park on this issue at last night’s Town Hall on CNN. We need to figure out what are the growth industries and how to fill positions for *skilled* labor in the future. Bernie just reiterated his usual shtick… If only the world were that simple. If we’re competing with India or China on who can make the cheapest widget, than we should have the same standard of living as widget makers in India and China. Is that really how we want to compete in the world economy?
redshirt
@PST: Agreed. This is one of my favorite BJ threads ever because people are actually laying out their real rationales.
I personally don’t care about the Democratic Party or any party, but I’ve come to recognize the Republican Party as one of the greatest threats to the modern world we’ve faced since the Communists and the NAZI’s. They must not only be stopped but destroyed, and thus I am now a political partisan for whichever Democrat can beat whatever Republican in every and any election.
Applejinx
@Linnaeus: I don’t think she needs to. I think she’s aware I have autism (I’ve spoken of it before) and isn’t only looking at Twitter here. And I’ll tell you how that reads.
Disenfranchisement. Like the few posters saying ‘just go away’. It tells you something when a particular crowd evolves to be MORE off-putting than a damn autistic person. That’s a pretty high-water mark for tone-deafness right there.
So let us consider the notion that all these huge crowds at peaceful, hopeful rallies, the states of New Hampshire and Michigan etc, are all autistic people. What’s this claim mean? That they are blindered disabled fools that must not be listened to because they’re incapable of taking the long view. They’re not contextualizing. They see free candy and are about to knock over the pantry shelves in a jerky, arm-flapping frenzy and not even understand what they’re doing.
Nice way to talk about Michigan, guys. There will be other states that similarly will need to be looked after by attentive nurses and Case Managers. Maybe you’ll give up on democracy entirely if it keeps coughing up these populist hairballs.
OR, you could consider the idea that flawed people can be seeing a piece of the puzzle you DON’T, and this is my view. I try to reconsider things in the light of the Clintonistas’ burning bridges. It’s easier when it’s Obama doing troubling things, but I’ll still make an effort. I’ll consider the idea that gender politics brings great value that might counterbalance other problems, or that being able to fight to the top of a gravely fucked-up system by its own rules gives you some clout within that system.
But AS an autistic person (civilized enough to be able to work for a major political campaign, even invited to the big NH celebration rally) what I see is this: Bernie’s getting traction because of issues, as he continually reminds us. They seem shocking because they’re outside mainstream political discourse, and they’re winning because both on the Bernie and the Trump side they are unavoidable anymore: the system as it ‘works’ is killing us. There are radical alternative ways that face serious implementation problems. That’s a fair objection.
But whether it’s the wealth disparity now baked into the system with Citizens United, or the Monroe Doctrine that has our country continually poking other countries with sharp sticks, or the trade globalization that’s made countless corporations a larger global power than many actual nation-states, there are things going on in the mainstream that will kill us and are already enacting a horrible toll, and I don’t think it takes an autistic person to get hung up on those inconvenient truths (there’s another, global warming! Climate change!) and start to freak out at the prospect of centrist incrementalist governance toward the center of gravity of our nation.
That center of gravity is not the populist movements. It’s decades of consolidation of power (and kudos to the Clintons for becoming part of that when they were initially quite unwelcome: I don’t respect that power, but they made it respect them) and the trouble with incrementalism in the face of radical change is that sometimes, you’ll find the incrementalism is actually going the wrong way. You can get the Republican party becoming an incoherent freakshow, and the Democrats willingly taking on the mantle of the defense of what Republicans used to believe before they ate too many tire rims.
When Tobie says
What if the growth industries are AI, internet monopolies and robotics/nanotech, companies worth billions of dollars with like five people and a bunch of machines, and there are no positions for either skilled or unskilled labor in the future?
We are gonna have to grapple with ‘revolution’ in the long run, like it or not. All of the ‘stable’ positions of early 2016 are sandcastles in the face of rising wealth-hoarding, climate change, massive migration in response to that climate change, and the evaporation of ‘jobs’. Nobody is ‘safe’ from this. The CEOs themselves can only migrate companies to Mexico or Taiwan for so long before they’re replaced by powerful computer algorithms doing the same thing better, or out-competed by companies that jumped to the AI management the earliest.
People are clamoring for the election of Hillary (and getting REALLY MAD at obstacles to that) as if by incrementalism and connectedness she can somehow make this not be happening. If none of these things were happening, they’d have a stronger claim to her rightness.
But much like climate change, the world isn’t going to wait for you.
(and it is certainly an autistic trait, to be compelled to stare at this reality once you’ve spotted it bearing down like a tsunami. It’s like trying to tell people, hey, why is the horizon quietly fifty feet higher than usual? That’s water, it’s not supposed to be up there)
Betty Cracker
@redshirt:
15 years ago I would have called that hyperbole. Now I agree 100%.
@Applejinx: I’ll co-sign the notion that the hardest core Clintonistas can be patronizing as hell. But trust me when I say, that works both ways. I’ll leave it at that.
Applejinx
@Betty Cracker: ‘s cool. I’ll own that, because there are differences of worldview here (as in, seeing very different worlds and futures)
If I’m wrong about lots of things and all will be fine, I will happily eat crow (for one, I’ll be able to afford it, and I’ll have a place to live in which to eat this crow)
If I’m not… I hope a lot of comfortable people will be willing to scramble, and deal with emergencies. What I don’t like seeing is the dismissiveness because it implies a lot of people will sit back in their retirement homes and do nothing. But then history’s told us that’s more the rule than the exception.
TallPete
Betty, you’ve gone to the dark side! JK.. But what’s most puzzling is your reason which seems to be that she’s a woman. That’s a perfectly good reason to me, but it should be A reason not THE reason. It leaves me wondering why that wasn’t a good enough reason for you in 2008.
Tegdirb
@Bob In Portland: Is Sanders is so popular why does he have fewer votes than Clinton, Trump, and Cruz? Maybe your nonsense plays well on GOS but not here.
Lee in NC
I don’t frequent Balloon Juice very often to be honest, but wanted to just post here and commend you for a really nice post about HRC. I’m 100% in agreement and a couple of months ago would have voted for Sanders in the primary. Today, however, I’ll be casting a vote for HRC.
Why? It was mostly the Benghazi hearing that finally flipped the switch for me. I was torn between both and for a long time really couldn’t decide. But that day that she sat there for 11 f***ing hours, swatting down the Republicans and making them literally flop sweat, I knew that’s who I wanted in the White House kicking GOP ass. This is not to say that I’m deluded she’ll get much done with a Republican House. But I’m going to enjoy watching her kick them in the balls for 4 (8?!) years.
Marjowil
Your thinking in this post lines up pretty exactly with my own. Thanks
Bob In Portland
@Tegdirb: Less unpopular. Seriously, you’ve never heard of this? You think it’s something I made up? After you read what I wrote you never even tried to google it? Really?
Here’s a little, but feel free to look it up on your own:
Bob In Portland
@patroclus: Read this, and then wager about the minimum wage.
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid: You go ahead and believe what you want.
Although I find it curious how people presume that governments tell them the truth. The government still has classified documents from the JFK assassination, but don’t worry, there’s nothing there, how dare you think that our country could possibly have had a coup? What are you, crazy?
The Sunday after MH17 went down Kerry said he had proof of the exact location where the missile that hit it was fired from. That was about 20 months ago. If you want to use MH17 as a cold war bludgeon against Russia, then why not, you know, share it with the official investigations? Why not share it with the world? Why hasn’t Ukraine released the control tower tapes? Well, the last word I saw on the subject was that they were “lost.”
We could talk about the logic of a false flag but that involves admitting that your country commits false flags. That would suggest that your country (or, in this case, my country) routinely lies to you. Small lies, big lies.
Ukraine is now a failure as a state after the US-backed fascist coup in 2014. It is more of a threat to the EU now, with its instability and its fascist gangs, than it ever did under pro-Russian regimes. As corrupt as the last guy was, the current regime is pretty much stripping out the copper pipes from Ukraine. There will soon be nothing left but patriotic songs.
Meanwhile, the gullible still try to make sense of our Syria policy. Instead of just declaring that Assad was the designated bad man who tortured people, sells drugs, whatever, we’ve invented a narrative of ISIS suddenly appearing in the desert without considering who is backing them, who is supplying them with weapons, with who is buying them the Toyota trucks.
Believe what you want to believe. It will not change the world around you.
Bob In Portland
@patroclus: Let’s try again.
Bob In Portland
@Applejinx: Yes.
Bob In Portland
@Mary G: I suspect that the permanent government forced her on Obama, not unlike Zbiggie was forced on Carter. And she functioned fine for the permanent government’s goals.
But then you don’t admit that there is anything like a permanent government.