Balloon Juice Bunker Standoff: The US Government Responds to Peter Santilli’s Request for Bail

Yesterday the US Attorneys in Oregon and Nevada responded to Peter Santilli’s request to get bail. Santilli’s argument is that he’s not a party to either the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge Occupation, nor the Bundy Ranch Standoff of 2014. Rather, he’s a journalist and was at both locations in that capacity and is therefore protected by the 1st Amendment. The US government’s response to this request is in the pdf below and its an interesting read. The government’s argument is that Santilli was not at Bunkerville as a journalist, but was rather a major participant, planner, and leader of the standoff.

govtmotiondetainsantilliNV

Among other interesting and related cases, Schuyler Barbeau, who is alleged to have been one of Cliven Bundy’s bodyguards, has filed his own pleading in his case in Washington state. The pdf of his handwritten pleading is below*:

barbeau24

Finally, and thanks to commenter Trollhattan in the comments in my earlier thread, the High Country News has posted a rundown on what is going on with and around the Bundy arrests and arraignments. This includes a nice summary biography of each of the major individuals indicted to this point. It also points out that there is significant concern among members of the “Patriot” movement that anyone who was at the Bundy Ranch standoff to show their support or provide security are at risk for arrest. And here’s a great article by Les Zaitz on how the eyewitness reports to LaVoy Finicum’s shooting matched up with the evidence, including both the FBI’s surveillance footage and the eyewitness’s own footage. Short answer: not well.

——–Update at 9:25 PM——-

Here’s an interesting article on emails sent, expressing concern, about Grant County Sheriff Palmer and what he might or might not do in regards to the Malheur occupiers (h/t: Judy Thomas on twitter). And here’s a link to a YouTube video where LaVoy Finicum’s widow claims that Sheriff Palmer invited the Malheur occupiers to visit him (h/t: Ryan Haas on Twitter).

* I’m pretty sure I found this last week linked to on JJ MacNab’s twitter feed.






97 replies
  1. 1
    Troublesome Carp fka Geeno says:

    It also points out that there is significant concern among members of the “Patriot” movement that anyone who was at the Bundy Ranch standoff “to show their support” are at risk for arrest.

    Good. Assholes.

  2. 2
    Booger says:

    I’m sure the Barbeau document looks better in the original crayon and feces.

  3. 3
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Troublesome Carp fka Geeno: The author that HCN links to has been doing his own investigation into Fast and Furious. Needless to say its an interesting take on what the government was trying to achieve, largely ignores that these gun walking programs began under the Bush 43 Administration, and doesn’t line up with the long form reporting that also includes the civil suits involving the BATF agents involved with the program:
    http://fortune.com/2012/06/27/.....s-scandal/

  4. 4
    Schlemazel (parmesan rancor) says:

    @Troublesome Carp fka Geeno:
    HEAR HEAR!

    Lets see now, I’ll grab my 2nd amendment toy & threaten government employees to support a thieving grifter – what could possibly go wrong? I’d support refurbishing Alcatraz just for them!

  5. 5
    slag says:

    @Booger: That was some insanely rambly nonsense. How would you like to be trapped inside that brain? Disturbing.

  6. 6
    LAO says:

    Adam, Barbeau wasn’t, or hasn’t , been arrested yet for Bundy related actions? Was he arrested on an unrelated gun charge?

  7. 7
    LAO says:

    I’m finding it difficult to process Barbeau’s declaration, which I’m presuming is a pro se motion to dismiss his indictment. Of course, in the real world, it is a 6 page signed confession. (I feel sorry for his lawyer).

  8. 8
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: Yeah, if you go to the article I linked to he was arrested for an unrelated gun charge while being investigated for threatening law enforcement officers (my guess is this was part of the larger Bundy Ranch investigations, but might be from another incident). The firearms charge is a violation of the National Firearms Act (NFA). Apparently he either built or purchased a short barreled rifle (SBR – a rifle with a barrel shorter than 16 inches) without the NFA approval by BATF.

  9. 9
    LAO says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I’ve started a list. Must improve: (1) grammar and (2) reading comprehension.

  10. 10
    aimai says:

    @LAO: It is dumbfounding. Perhaps because it was written by someone profoundly dumb. My sixth graders,when they were sixth graders, could write a sustained argument better than that. He really has been living in a bubble for so long that he thinks this is some kind of argument that proves something to the government. It would be funny if it weren’t so pathetic.

  11. 11
    aimai says:

    Still: Wolverines! He’s really pretty sure that we are going to be invaded any minute by Isis, the Russkies, or the ChiComs so we will all be begging for his help sometime soon.

  12. 12
    scav says:

    Don’t bring their own snacks, are surprised when their tyrannous oppressive regime actually shows up and hauls them off for a spot of slow wheels and and paperwork generation combined with rooms lacking keys, movies are just not supposed to work like this.

  13. 13
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: And, according to AndyBean’s twitter, a woman walked out of the gallery two minutes before the start of court and gave the linked below pdf to David Fry’s attorney as evidence for his defense. Bean states that he got the pdf from the woman who gave it to Fry’s attorney:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/r9a8nsclg9i9ibm/SovCitProof.pdf?dl=0

    The annotations are Beans as he tried to read it and make sense of it.

  14. 14
    LAO says:

    @aimai: Incarcerated criminal defendant write crazy crap like this all the time, (I keep copies of the best in a file named “crazy town”). My personal favorite part, is his concern, that mentally ill have access to significant fire power. Pot meet kettle.

  15. 15
    Clem says:

    For bonus crazy points, sovcit evidence handed to Fry’s attorney on Friday, two minutes before his release hearing. Also from jjmacnab.

  16. 16
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: No, you’re fine. I had to read the article three times to figure it out. It wasn’t written very clearly. Also, I’ve updated the post with some interesting stuff on Grant County Sheriff Palmer.

  17. 17
    LAO says:

    @Adam L Silverman: So much awesomeness to unpack. I’m worried my head my explode.

  18. 18
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @aimai: He was part of one of the mine standoffs. You should see his Facebook post
    https://twitter.com/Patztense/status/707215229931937793

    where he discusses his military service on close air support medical evacuation (CASAVAC) and why he can’t be a domestic terrorist. I know that some in the Army often joke that Marine is really an acronym standing for muscles are required, intelligence not essential, but this is giving truth to that interservice rivalry joke.

  19. 19
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Clem: I just updated with that in a previous comment. Great minds and all.

  20. 20
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: I stopped after the acrostic with John Quincy Adams name.

  21. 21
    dp says:

    My law review note was on U.S. v. Salerno and preventive pretrial detention. I thought then, and I still think, it violates the Eighth Amendment (my faculty adviser, a wonderful man and lawyer who died a few weeks ago, commented, “You know, these are pretty dangerous people,” but he ok’d it anyway). But if we’re going to have it, this guy deserves it.

  22. 22
    Schlemazel (parmesan rancor) says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    I tried to read that crap, may head hurt by page 5 and after 10 I just started scrolling until I saw something “interesting”. HOLY nad WHOLLY shit! Is the court required to actually read and review every spoonful of batshit or can they just do as much as I just did & label it garbage to be ignored?

    We really do desperately need better mental health care in this country.

  23. 23
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): I’m not sure it was submitted to the court. Remember, Fry and everyone arrested so far from the Malheur standoff other than Ammon Bundy, have public defenders. Given she was given this two minutes before court, my guess is that Fry’s attorney didn’t do anything with it.

  24. 24
    muddy says:

    @Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): Go on youtube and look at sovereign citizen nitwits when they get pulled for speeding etc. They think if they perform certain magic words they can’t be ticketed. I am generally both amazed and (I’m afraid to say) rather annoyed at how patient the cops seem to be with it.

  25. 25
    LAO says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I made it all the way through. Honestly, Bean’s annotations are the best. I joke about the crazy but this is a real problem for the court system. Almost all sovcit go pro se (in the end) and it’s virtually impossible to move the case forward.

  26. 26
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: So I’ve heard. I’ve also hears that some have (tried to) get violent when their conjuring words and antics don’t produce the results they want from judges, prosecutors, and/or law enforcement.

  27. 27
    Schlemazel (parmesan rancor) says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    I can’t imagine having this loon as a client. You can see where this is going. If you do what is best for your client he will go nuts & say you are part of the BAR and a NAZI who sold out to the international JEWISH COMMUNIST conspiracy who is selling him out but if you do what the client wants you probably end up in the klink for contempt & losing your license!

  28. 28
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I’m having to read this post and comments in small bites so I don’t OD. This shit has not been stepped on at all…oh yeah….

  29. 29
    billb says:

    Adam and All, I saw a YouTube today of the end of Finicum, shot inside his rig by the gal in the back seat. They synched it to the helicopter footage on a side screen. I do not have a link, but if you want to hunt it down, it is in a comment thread from today’s Portland Reddit. Chilling.

  30. 30
    LAO says:

    @Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): They generally go pro se.

  31. 31
    Adam L Silverman says:

    What I’m wondering is if the DOJ is going to really push things and decide that the state representatives that showed up and involved themselves at both the Bundy Ranch and Malheur Refuge standoffs should be charged as well. Several of them have these “patriot” organizations that promote the anti-government and state denying beliefs that Bundy and his followers have adopted. For instance, the Coalition of Western States.

  32. 32
    Schlemazel (parmesan rancor) says:

    @muddy:
    I have heard their prattle and they really do think they are wizards who are issuing an incantation that will magically make LEOs fall in line. I bet they get violent when their majik fails; it would be scary walking up on one of these loon at a traffic stop.

  33. 33
    LAO says:

    @Steve in the ATL: lol. We didn’t even have to pay him.

  34. 34
    dp says:

    Barbeau makes a compelling case for personal thermonuclear devices.

  35. 35
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @billb: If you go to my 5:30 PM post earlier today (two posts before this one), you’ll find the video you’re talking about. Its part of the Joint law enforcement conference on the investigation into the shooting of Mr. Finicum from earlier today. The video is of the entire press conference.

  36. 36
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Nothing can fuck up a criminal docket like a sovereign citizen. The tend to file lengthy, incoherent pleading asserting lack of jurisdiction, which they will attempt to argue orally in spite of the judge advising that s/he will not entertain an oral presentation. I’ve seen a couple get, er, feisty with court security when escorted out after wasting several hours of court and attorney time.

    Regular pro se defendants are tiresome at times but (generally) not hostile. The sov cits give me headaches just remembering the few I had the pleasure of opposing.

    @Adam L Silverman: In my view, there is a very good chance of this. Lawmakers and enforcement officials cannot get involved with armed opposition to US LEOs.

  37. 37
    LAO says:

    @Adam L Silverman: My knee jerk reaction is, despite my personal desire to press the federal jackboot on the necks of these irresponsible and dangerously stupid state politicians, the Feds will not charge them.

  38. 38
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: That’s my take too. Unless they’ve got something very, very solid on them, such as putting out a call for people to come and defend the Bundy’s.

  39. 39
    Schlemazel (parmesan rancor) says:

    @LAO:
    quelle surprise!

    So, is the judge free to tell the defendant to F off or are they required to pretend this stuff has value? I assume they just throw this shit up in one of its many variations for as long as they can.

    When I was a kid I used to spend time sitting in courtrooms waiting for my dad to finish some business he had at the courthouse & saw 2 different lawyers get scolded for not doing a good job in pleadings they submitted. The one got ripped so hard I wa stunned – I didn’t know adults talked like that to other adults! I assume that would only serve to further enrage these nutbags. What does the court have to do for these types?

  40. 40
    LAO says:

    @Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): it’s a fcking nightmare. See comment 36

  41. 41
    The Republic, Blah Blah Blah... says:

    …there is significant concern among members of the “Patriot” movement that anyone who was at the Bundy Ranch standoff to show their support or provide security or pointed a gun at a government official and threatened to shoot them are at risk for arrest.

    There… now that statement is complete…

    Seriously… these f’in people…

  42. 42
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Which may be the case; that’s the premise of my view. if there is nothing that solid, I can’t see there’s any percentage in charging them, while at the same time there’s a steep downside with accusations of “yet another example of tyrannical federal overreach. Solid evidence, and all bets are off. It won’t stop the true believers, but can be explained to the rest of the country.

  43. 43
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I’m bringing my OT question here because it turns out I don’t have an email for you after all. It kind of fits with all of this sovciv stuff in a loopy way, so if anyone else has any ideas, feel free to chime in —

    I’m working on my novel, which takes place in England and Scotland during the Napoleonic Wars (probably towards the end, but I can be a bit flexible with dates). I have a character who becomes convinced that he’s found a lost branch of the Stuarts and can get Napoleon’s support to overthrow the Hanovers. (Napoleon was still trying to track down potential Stuart heirs as late as 1809, when he summoned Bonnie Prince Charlie’s widow for a face-to-face interview to confirm she had no living children.)

    So I’m trying to come up with a plausible branch from the Stuart family tree that would lead someone in the early 1800s to think he’s found a Stuart connection that could lead him to the throne of England. It doesn’t have to be true, obviously, and the guy is a little nuts, but plausible enough to create a conspiracy around.

  44. 44
    Bob In Portland says:

    The Oregonian ran a story about what was recorded on the cell phone of one of passengers. I’d say video, but apparently when the shooting started they were ducking in the back seat.

    It solves the mystery of why LaVoy got shot in the back. When he pulled his truck off the road a trooper standing there had to run back to the forest line to protect himself. He took out a taser to take him down. Finicum was yelling “You’ll have to shoot me” or something thereabouts. Then he reached for into his coat for his gun. That’s when cops who were running up from behind shot him.

    In a way, the rest of them in the car were lucky Finicum was a slow draw. If he’d managed to shoot the trooper he’d still be dead but everyone else in the car could be charged with attempted murder/murder. That would add a few years to their eventual sentences.

  45. 45
    Prescott Cactus says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    What I’m wondering is if the DOJ is going. . .

    Adam,

    What’s your take on the FBI Hostage Rescue Team guys shooting and perhaps covering it up? Those guys in deep poop?

  46. 46
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Mnemosyne: Fortunately for you there have been no shortage of supposed heirs of Bonnie Prince Charlie. For instance, this fine fellow profiled in The Guardian:
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/...../johnezard

    This Wikipedia article – I know its wikipedia – does a good job of laying them all out:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobite_succession

    Napoleon would have had no shortage of potential heirs to pick from. This includes Charlie’s brother Henry.

    It is important to remember that there was a small movement among some of the American revolutionaries to offer Bonnie Prince Charlie the crown here in what would become the US as part of the break with the Hanovers and then use American resources to retake the crown of the United Kingdom. When this didn’t go anywhere, as most of us know, the offer was to make George Washington king of a new country. Katherine Kurtz wrote a historical fantasy novel about this:
    http://www.amazon.com/Two-Crow.....rine+kurtz

  47. 47
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Prescott Cactus: I wrote this in response to a similar question by Ella in NM in my previous post on this today:
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2016/03/08/balloon-juice-bunker-standoff-the-investigation-into-the-shooting-of-lavoy-finicum-has-concluded/#comment-5701154
    I don’t know. Moreover, I don’t know what their tactics, techniques, and procedures (TTPs) and their rules of engagement were. The issue here is really not that an HRT member wouldn’t have had justifiable reason to shoot at Finicum’s vehicle – if the Oregon State Police were justified, the HRT would be, especially as it was an HRT member that was almost run over. Rather, the issue is going to be why did the member that shot twice and had one of his shots hit the top of the vehicle not say so in any prior statements during the investigation? The reason for the shot could have been as simple as everyone was on the same communication frequency, the Oregon State Police lead or spotter issued the “send” command and the HRT guy sent two rounds at the target. It might have been that when the HRT member who shot saw his teammate in danger he shot. It might have been that he was given authorization to fire by the HRT lead and/or spotter. Or he may have shot without authorization and in violation of the HRT’s rules of engagement. The DOJ Inspector General and Deschutes County investigations will sort this out. The three issues here are: 1) was the HRT’s shot justified and within the HRT’s rules of engagement?; 2) why did the HRT member who shot indicate to the Major Incident investigators that he had not shot?; and 3) did anyone else on the HRT know and not say anything and if so, why?

    This one is really going to be about the seeming coverup. That both the DOJ and the Deschutes County investigators are taking this seriously and being open about it is a good sign. It could have just as easily been buried, or attempted to be buried. So the fact that the DOJ – including the FBI SAIC in Oregon and the US Attorney in Oregon are taking it seriously, as are the Oregon state and county officials is a good sign. And while Hip Hop, LAO, and Steve in ATL (as well as Omnes and some others) will be better able to clear this last bit up, I would reckon that there is both Federal, state, and local legal jeopardy for the HRT personnel depending on the outcome of the investigation.

  48. 48
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Napoleon would have had no shortage of potential heirs to pick from. This includes Charlie’s brother Henry.

    Charlie’s brother, Henry, it turns out, was probably gay, which seems to have run in the Stuart family (see also James I, Elizabeth I’s successor). He became a cardinal after the rout of 1745 and spent lots of time with various handsome priests, so no legit (or even illegit) heirs there.

  49. 49
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Schlemazel (parmesan rancor):

    So, is the judge free to tell the defendant to F off or are they required to pretend this stuff has value? I assume they just throw this shit up in one of its many variations for as long as they can.

    Pro se filing are taken seriously and every effort to find an scintilla of a valid legal argument in them. It was a major part of my federal clerkship.

  50. 50
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Mnemosyne: Yes, but you also have the House of Savoy and the Duke of Modena. Napoleon had several Stewart heirs to chose from if he wanted to.

    Also, I tried to send you a test message, but it bounced back. It indicates that the email address you’re using for here doesn’t exist.

  51. 51
    Prescott Cactus says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Thank you for being very generous with your time and respone. I watched the whole 45 min video you posted and never caught up with the whole thread.

    The one gentleman in a suit had a long pause and it first I didn’t catch that he was on the verge of tears. This stuff must not have been easy.

  52. 52
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    It was a major part of my federal clerkship.

    It was the worst part of my federal clerkship?

  53. 53
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Prescott Cactus: You’re welcome. As for the gentleman that teared up, I think he’s from the Oregon State Police. So it was his colleagues that were in harm’s way.

  54. 54
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    It indicates that the email address you’re using for here doesn’t exist.

    Are we supposed to use real emails addresses for that? I wasn’t sure if it would show up somewhere when I started posting here so I used a fake one. I know, you thought “steve@aol.com” was real….

  55. 55
    LAO says:

    nd while Hip Hop, LAO, and Steve in ATL (as well as Omnes and some others) will be better able to clear this last bit up, I would reckon that there is both Federal, state, and local legal jeopardy for the HRT personnel depending on the outcome of the investigation.

    18 years a criminal defense attorney and I have NEVER seen a federal agent held criminally responsible for conduct committed during official duties.

    My hunch, an admintrative punishment, if anything.

    I differ to the other lawyers, who probably know better.

    Eta: I defer not differ

  56. 56
    The Pale Scot says:

    @muddy:

    Go on youtube and look at sovereign citizen nitwits when they get pulled for speeding etc. They think if they perform certain magic words they can’t be ticketed.

    I am a Sovereign Citizen, this are not the droids you are looking for.

  57. 57
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Steve in the ATL: Well she wanted to communicate with me offline, so I sent her a test message. And it bounced back. I can only do so much…

  58. 58
    LAO says:

    @Steve in the ATL: lol. Typical lawyer.

  59. 59
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Steve in the ATL: I had a guy whose 2255 motion was based on the premise that aliens from planet Xeon had persuaded him to commit the bank robbery of which he was convicted. It was meant as a test of strength of human character – to see if we were worthy allies in an upcoming galactic war.

  60. 60
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Don’t tell Cole, but I’ve been using a fake one for online “verification” since 2004. I do have a (real) Gmail address — mnemosyne.muse — or via my semi-defunct website, which I’ve relinked below.

  61. 61
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @LAO: By the grace of God I don’t practice in that area so I’m not sure, but I will second the speculation of my esteemed colleague from New York that actual prosecution is unlikely, but a minor administrative punishment *might* happen.

  62. 62
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Steve in the ATL:

    I know, you thought “steve@aol.com” was real….

    Hell, that’s probably Steve Jobs’s old email address.

  63. 63
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Mnemosyne: I was thinking Steve Case!

  64. 64
    The Pale Scot says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    I’m working on my novel, which takes place in England and Scotland during the Napoleonic Wars

    Does Richard Sharpe make an appearance Bernard?

  65. 65
    LAO says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’m going to be nicer to clerks from now on. (Although I am super nice now because not an idiot.).

  66. 66
    Mnemosyne says:

    @The Pale Scot:

    Nope, different genre entirely.

  67. 67
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Mnemosyne: Just sent you an email through the contact form on your website.

  68. 68
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @LAO: The job has its perks.

  69. 69
    LAO says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: It’s a great job, I wish I had been smart enough to land a clerkship.

  70. 70
  71. 71
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Um…I’d ask if you were kidding, but I don’t know if it *is* possible for (relatively) normal minds to make this shit up…

    Reminds me of the time I was on the bus in Detroit when a guy stood up, glared round at all of us, and loudly demanded that WHICHEVER ONE OF US was the one who was shooting laser beams into his head had better just STOP NOW, because he had POWERFUL FRIENDS. And then he blurted out: “Aliens! I’ve seen ’em! They’re real!” (beat) “One of ’em hypnotized me!” As I recall, my girlfriends and I all just cowered down into our seats.

  72. 72
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I keep thinking that I’m not sure it’s possible for this shit to get any weirder.

  73. 73
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Miss Bianca: I was not kidding at all. OTOH, I have some base material for an SF novel.

  74. 74
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Mnemosyne: You’re quite welcome. My recommendation is to look at the family tree at the wikipedia article and then, if you have questions, shoot me an email. I have some ideas about who I think would work for you novel. Specifically, the children of Charlie’s illegitimate daughter Charlotte Duchesse of Albany who he legitimized before she died. It is from her that the guy in that Guardian article is descended.

    Charlotte had three children: Marie Victoire Adeliade, Charlotte Maximillian Amelie, and Charles Edward Stuart, known as Count Roehenstart (a combination of his father’s name Rohen and mother’s Stuart):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Edward_Stuart,_Count_Roehenstart

    I think the Count Roehenstart would make an excellent choice for what you are looking for.

  75. 75
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Miss Bianca:

    As I recall, my girlfriends and I all just cowered down into our seats.As I recall, my girlfriends and I all just cowered down into our seats.

    Option 1:
    But you didn’t stop shooting laser beams into his head? Not cool.

    Option 2:
    “And that was how I met Alex Jones!”

  76. 76
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    “Lawyers…in…SPAAAAACE….!”

  77. 77
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Steve in the ATL:

    You know, what’s really not cool is how hard I’m laughing right now…you’re making me scare my dogs…

  78. 78
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Miss Bianca: There’s some 70 some odd year old retiree in Minnesota, if I recall the news article correctly, who believes his apartment building has been infiltrated by CIA agents and operatives and they’re conspiring against him. Local law enforcement has taken his guns away after they were called out to his apartment, but he’s suing to get them back. And he likely will as he’s never been diagnosed as mentally ill or adjudicated to be so by a judge.

  79. 79
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Miss Bianca: Stop doing that!

  80. 80
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Miss Bianca: I can’t go into any more details on a public forum, but when I win my Hugo, that bank robber will a shout-out.

  81. 81
    LAO says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Ah, America the great. Thanks for the posts – 2 of them! Good night to all.

  82. 82
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    No, YOU stop…all of yez. I’m gonna have to ditch this convo, the dogs are concerned…

    ETA: And why are you all so convinced *I* was the one with the laser beam??

  83. 83
    nutella says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Have you read Joan Aiken’s The Cuckoo Tree? It’s part of the children’s series that starts with The Wolves of Willoughby Chase and features a young heroine who tries to stop the evil Hanoverians from mounting St. Paul’s cathedral on casters and rolling it into the Thames — one of their dastardly plots against the reigning Stuart king.

  84. 84
    Miss Bianca says:

    @nutella:

    Isn’t that “Black Hearts in Battersea”? My favorite of that series…”alt-history” before I knew the term. Messed me up, too, because I really didn’t know my British history that well!

  85. 85
    dantanna says:

    Schuyler Barbeau.

    Jeez, what a yutz.

    IANAL but I gotta think commenter LAO has a point: Book ’em Danno, cause it’s a 6 page signed confession. Dude says he built an illegal select fire SBR but it was for…. reasons.

    Again, IANAL but I’d think the admission he seems aware it’s in violation of the law is, uh, not going to help him.

    Incidentally, I think that hand-scrawled statement is a valuable insight into to the mindset of many people who demand shall carry, open carry, and generally no holds barred carry.

    Also, I love anal sex so I love typing IANAL.

  86. 86
    nutella says:

    @Miss Bianca:

    Same series. Here’s a list of the books in the series. I need to order the ones I’ve missed.

  87. 87
    Mnemosyne says:

    @nutella:

    I have not. I kind of don’t want to read any other fiction along the same lines until I get mine written so I don’t accidentally plagiarize.

    @Miss Bianca:

    This is my villain I’m figuring out, BTW. I have to do more research before I decide who he thinks is the Stuart heir, himself or another character.

  88. 88
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mnemosyne: IMO, if you make it someone who is acting on behalf of a potential real heir, you have more freedom of action without bringing pedants down upon you than if you use an actual putative heir.

  89. 89
    nutella says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Just be sure not to mention any elephants saving St Pauls!

    Seriously, though, after you finish writing your story the Aiken series is pretty wild and fun to read.

    And I’m looking forward to reading yours when it’s published.

  90. 90
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Yes, but it may be more fun story-wise for the villain to decide that he himself is the true heir and act on that nutty belief. Which is where it ties back to the Bundy cosplayers.

  91. 91
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mnemosyne: You know your story outline better than I do. Best wishes for your success.

  92. 92
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I’m debating several different ways I could make use of it and which character should be the putative (but not really) Stuart heir. One of those ways would change the hero’s background and the title of the book, but I may be able to live with that.

    There’s also that fascinating psychology that often happens with con men where they manage to con themselves and become convinced of their own lies if they go on long enough, like the Baron of Arizona.

  93. 93
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I can’t go into any more details on a public forum

    Oh, come *on*…what’s it going to take? Tincture of opium and a safe house?

  94. 94
    sigaba says:

    @Booger: I wanna see someone set the Barbeau filing to music; I see it as an oratorio.

  95. 95

    If you feel the Schuyler Barbeau self deposition is in the TL:DR category, please reconsider. If you want insight into the pre-adolescent, totally disconnected from real world and experience mindset of these people, and their comic book fantasy relationships to their guns, you really must read his entire declaration.

    It really reveals the thinking, and I use that term VERY loosely, of these people. They have talked themselves into an alternate reality, in which they apparently believe they are except from Federal law and legal restrictions, and see themselves as heroic freedom fighters.

    They are sincerely deluded.

  96. 96
    J R in WV says:

    These comments are so wonderful. I’ve been listening to Theremin songs thanks to Google this morning. The sounds seem to match the mood of insane political theorists hiding out in a high plains desert with ancient antecedents. Thinking there of the archaeological work at the Loon Reserve, ancient aliens, the association of Theremin’s sounds with strange films and alien events.

    The Sovereign Citizens [ SovCit seems to relate to the old Soviet Union days, somehow, maybe the same mental illness? ] certainly seem like they would take a stolid middle-grounded lawyer / judge to places such lawyers would really rather not to go. Fringe on Flags!? Really!

    The things you learn on B-J ~!!!!

  97. 97
    Matt says:

    there is significant concern among members of the “Patriot” movement that anyone who was at the Bundy Ranch standoff to show their support or provide security are at risk for arrest.

    FFS the “patriots” are literally so dumb I’m shocked they don’t drown when it rains. They showed up to “show support” and/or “provide security” FOR THE PEOPLE DOING A CRIME. Whether it’s a bank robbery or the latest outburst of yeehawdi sedition, that’s pretty much not allowed…

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