An interactive, year-by-year look at the #SagebrushRebellion, incl. latest w/ #ClivenBundy: https://t.co/VItE69O225 pic.twitter.com/yKZsD1yt4m
— High Country News (@highcountrynews) February 18, 2016
The Loon Lake Takeover is over (for the moment), but I’m still reading JJMcNab’s twitter feed on a daily basis. She’s a very useful source for links to all the latest (frequently laughable, sometimes horrifying) would-be domestic terrorists — grammar fails, logic deficits, and raw ugliness.
But also, excellent writers doing good journalism. Such as Hal Herring, “Can we make sense of the Malheur mess?”:
… I am isolated by a culture that is as inscrutable to me as any in the mountains of Afghanistan. For loving wilderness and empty lands and birdsong rather than teeming cities, I risk being called a xenophobe, a noxious nativist. For viewing guns as constitutionally protected, essential tools of self-defense and, if need be, liberation, I’m told that I defend the massacres of innocents in mass shootings. When I came to Montana at age twenty-five, I found in this vast landscape, especially in the public lands where I hunted and camped and worked, the freedom that was evaporating in the South, where I grew up. I got happily lost in the space and the history. For a nature-obsessed, gun-soaked malcontent like me, it was home, and when Ammon Bundy and his men took over the Malheur refuge, on a cold night in January, I thought I should go visit my neighbors…
I am doing my best here to be respectful of people with whom, it turned out, I disagree strongly, even violently. I could focus upon the essential nuttiness of the occupation, the lack of a plan for an outcome, the exhaustion of being assailed with pocket Constitutions any time one presents an argument that cannot be easily countered. Crackpots are drawn to such an open event like moths to a halogen light (and, no, I do not automatically exempt myself from the category). I wanted to find occupiers who could argue for what they were doing, but what is there to say when people take up arms inspired by, say, a belief that the President is the front for an Islamic takeover of the nation, or that the Chinese are already committed to buying the uranium that lies underneath the Hammond ranch.
I went to Malheur to ask questions and to listen, to learn and report. But what can be reported when your source is convinced of plots and powers that do not exist? When I asked whether they were endangering the Second Amendment by brandishing AR-15s, the answer was that an occupation like this was the entire purpose of the Second Amendment. When I asked whether, since the county was the highest level of government recognized, the occupiers would stand down if the sheriff asked them to (Harney County Sheriff Dave Ward, of course, already had), they said no, because Sheriff Ward was a tool of the oppressors. And when I asked whether they would stand down if the Oregon National Guard came and asked them to, they said it was too late for that. And so on…
The American West has the highest suicide rates in the nation, and has since frontier days. The current epidemic of suicide among white males in the US is part of the story here – in a recent article at Salon, Robert Hennelly wrote, “According to federal morbidity stats in 1999, 9,599 white men killed themselves. By 2010 that number was 14,379. In 2013 the U.S. recorded 41,149 suicides, 70 percent of which were white men, who mostly shot themselves. The most heavily affected demographic is middle-aged white men in the 45 to 64 age cohort…
Or this, from the Washington Post: “The year of ‘enormous rage’: Number of hate groups rose by 14 percent in 2015″.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
Sorry. Not getting out of the boat.
Wrb
Impressive essay
billb
These un-educated scum can get the helllll out of my State.
Put your damned guns where the sun don’t shine. Here in Oregon we value our neighbors. We do not like all the scum of the earth coming here. Tom MCall our Repub moderate Gov in the old days, said Please visit Oregon, Do Not Stay.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
OPB did a special on the occupation.
dedc79
In a world where a Republican candidate for the Presidency can go on a national tv program and say that liberals “want the crosses and Stars of David sandblasted off of the tombstones of our fallen veterans,” and not even be challenged to support that statement in any way, radicalization of the kind we just saw in Oregon shouldn’t surprise us in the least. The Republican Party started the fire and is fanning the flames.
ThresherK (GPad)
The “Can we make sense of the Malheur mess?” link is broken.
The writing makes me want more.
Cheryl Rofer
Quite a bit of information from other reporters following the story as well.
Les Zaitz: The great horned owls that have nested in the fire tower are back. They are currently hanging out in the trees.
Several reporters: The indictment on which Cliven Bundy was arrested has been unsealed. Also indicted were Ammon and Ryan Bundy, Ryan Payne, and Pete Santilli. No real surprises there.
From yesterday: A document from the feds in response to a request by defendants’ lawyers to visit the site detailed some of the damage: a trench filled with human feces in a Paiute burial area. Apparently the idiots stopped up the toilets, but that gave a reporter some time alone when he volunteered to try to unplug the toilets. He also looked around the place, checked out the computers, which he says were hacked to get at personal information of the refuge employees.
And here’s my summary from the other day.
Steve in the ATL
Shawna Cox is making pro se civil claims against…somebody. Sure wish I had that case on a contingency fee. One-third of $666,666,666,666,66 would pay for part of my kids’ college.
Omnes Omnibus
@ThresherK (GPad):
Doesn’t that just mean that the answer is no?
Cheryl Rofer
@ThresherK (GPad): Here’s a link that should work. Outstanding article.
Anya
Isn’t ACLU defending Pete Santilli? I am not sure if it’s true but I saw a tweet mentioning that.
Clem
Shawna Cox went full sovcit. The judge filed herNotice of Criminal Counter Suite for the record. Sovcit are seriously mental. This is a funny incident except if this sovcit was a POC, she probably would have been DOA.
Cheryl Rofer
Also arrested in the last few days: Neil Wampler (mentioned in the Malheur Mess article) and Wes Kjar. They’re rounding them up.
Omnes Omnibus
@Clem: Christ, that was like reading pro se petitions back when I was clerking. Thanks for the flashback
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
160 acres – that’s all that Cliven ever owned.
It would be only a little more than a hobby farm in the wet, fertile East. Certainly inadequate to making anything approaching a genuine profit by farming.
Dude ran 1000 scrawny undertended cows onto neighboring BLM land that he held neither deed nor lease to, and they ranged as far as 50 miles.
He was just a pathetic thief.
ThresherK (GPad)
@Omnes Omnibus: Good question. Depends on who is purporting to answer. I’ve heard enough national-scope crud, but I will try that OPB.
Libby Spencer
Great links Anne. Best think piece I’ve seen on this is this Hal clip.Thanks
jl
@ThresherK (GPad):
This seems to be it.
Can we make sense of the Malheur mess?
Hal Herring
Feb 12, 2016
High Country News
https://www.hcn.org/articles/malheur-occupation-oregon-ammon-bundy-public-lands-essay/
Honus
@dedc79: exactly. I heard Cruz saying that shit on the radio broadcast of MTP Sunday and there was just somebody (Chuck Todd?) going “umhmm” in the background and I’m thinking “he’s just allowed to spout this shit with no questions on national TV?”
trollhattan
High Country News is indispensable for understanding land/politics/resources/economics of the intermountain West. I’ve followed them since the Reagan-Watt cabal set the Sagebrush morans loose in the ’80s. They’ve been largely hunkered down since, but were emboldened by Bundy and his lot.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@ThresherK (GPad): Try this.
Adam L Silverman
@ThresherK (GPad): Here you go:
https://www.hcn.org/articles/malheur-occupation-oregon-ammon-bundy-public-lands-essay
Adam L Silverman
@Steve in the ATL: The Federal government, the Sheriff of Harney County, and a Republican state representative.
Adam L Silverman
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: Even better is the Court’s determination in his not getting bail. The Government’s argument is that he doesn’t even fall under the definition of a rancher. All he does is let his cattle run wild. He doesn’t vaccinate them, have them checked by a vet, herded anywhere, doesn’t employ any ranch hands or cowboys. All he does is round up a few at a time and take them for slaughter to either sell on the commercial market or for food for his family. Other than his acreage and his cattle he most likely has no assets.
Cheryl Rofer
Here’s the 51-page indictment for the 2014 Bundy Ranch incident.
SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel
@dedc79:
WUT!?
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: Of course none of them should be eligible for bail. If they basically don’t recognize the authority of the court, that person easily could be considered unlikely to show up for trial. Sit in jail, fuckers.
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: Yep, they amended the original one. In the original they list four unnamed co-conspirators, which everyone was speculating was Ammon and Ryan Bundy, Ryan Payne, and Pete Santilli. My understanding is that Santilli was completely out of control at the Bunkerville standoff. Frothing at the mouth, bugfuck nuts, raving out of control.
dedc79
@SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel: Cruz – on MTP last sunday.
Chris
Uhhhh…
jl
Hall Herring article is sad and disturbing.
Brings to mind a couple of the ‘farmer’ teabaggers in my extended family. They manage to scrape by, but are not really farming in any old or new fashioned sense of the word They, thankfully, have done nothing criminally nutty. Hope it stays that way.
Adam L Silverman
@SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel: Part of Senator Cruz’s ongoing delusion. There are over 77 different options of religious symbols that can go on military members tombstones.
http://militaryatheists.org/news/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/emblems7012.png
There are even several unconventional ones.
Steve in the ATL
@Adam L Silverman: Of course. I’m not a member of the sovcit bar, what with being an officer of an actual court and all. And knowing how to spell “suit.” And having finished 8th grade.
Clem
Additional Indictments against the Bundy’s, Payne and Santilli filed today.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: They wanted to live for free on public (government) property. Now they get to live the dream!
max
Such as Hal Herring,
Bad link.
Kinda sorta maybe not really.
There was a wave of resistance to the original Constitution that endangered its passage such that a promise was made. The purpose of said promises (the Bill of Rights) was to prevent the Federal government from going for overweening quasi-royal power. Obviously hanging on to the militia stuff was one of those things. (The key point was, at the time, that those limits on Federal power did not apply to the states.) Said anti-federal wave would then participate in that whole business with the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions (which included Madison as one of its supporters!) and the whole nasty nasty political campaign of 1800. All of that said, one would have thought the question had been settled during the Civil War. And it was also a long long time ago.
I suppose you could argue that the Constitution was effectively a limitation on state’s rights (including the right to be independent if they felt like), and the Bill of Rights campaign was a counter-campaign going for a limitation of federal power. That is to say, a contest between elites in favor a strong Hamiltonian nation and another set of elites somewhat wary of the whole thing (and threats to their power).
Liberals have treated Kennedy vs. US as an effective wholesale repeal of the Second Amendment, but boy, I never saw that. (Read the decision. Of course Congress can regulate interstate commerce in guns, and regulate the postal service as well, but that’s not a total repeal. Instead the decision is a total non-decision.) In either case, the whole militia revolt thing, not to mention the armed revolt thing as a state’s rights thing, or for that matter, the whole business with secession went down in the Civil War.
If they wanted the Federal government to give the damn land back, they should be demanding the Feds give it back to the original owners: the native Americans. No, not the white people.
max
[‘In any event armed resistance is not applicable in this situation, unless you have actually been in secret tunnels under Walmart. And it would be operationally questionable in any case.’]
Adam L Silverman
Clem, did you delete your comment because you saw Cheryl’s or did I accidentally do it from my end? If the latter, my apologies, please repost.
Honus
@Omnes Omnibus: other than demanding damages in a criminal suit, and filing paper in a federal court, which has been prohibited for about ten years, it looks fine to me.
Adam L Silverman
@max: I highly recommend Michael Waldman’s The Second Amendment: A Biography. It deals with all of that and more.
Villago Delenda Est
@Honus: Not Chuckles the Toddler’s job to hold liars like Rafael accountable for their lies. So says Chuckles the Toddler.
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: I have no idea. Does the Aryan Brotherhood accept Mormons?
Steve in the ATL
I love that the judge instructed her to work with her attorney, Tiffany Harris, to file things properly. I read that as a “fuck you, deal with your client or else” to the attorney. May be wishful thinking on my part….
Villago Delenda Est
@max: As far as these assholes are concerned, the Paiute are subhumans who don’t count. They demonstrated that explicitly in their treatment of archaeological artifacts.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve in the ATL:
That was part of the Proustian charm for me.
@Honus: If I recall correctly, you do federal criminal practice. You’ve seen what haunts my memories – the post-conviction petitions….
hkedi
@Adam L Silverman: Alas no Flying Spaghetti Monster……
scav
@Clem: I am so loving the visual that apparently there are arrogant Federal Daffodils after her poor taxpayer self.
Villago Delenda Est
@Adam L Silverman: If Cruz had his way, most of those would never be seen again on military tombstones. As they represent belief systems that have nothing to do with the one true faith. Rafael’s.
Adam L Silverman
@hkedi: Don’t get me started…
Clem
@Adam L Silverman: It was just a link to the Grand Jury indictments filed today in Nevada against the Bundys, Santilli and Payne.
Steve in the ATL
@Villago Delenda Est: How about a maple leaf–is that ok with Cruz?
Adam L Silverman
@Clem: Right, I got that part. What I wanted to do was make sure that if I accidentally deleted it I let you know that I hadn’t intended to and you should repost it. I had my pointer/cursor lurking suspiciously close to the trash button when it suddenly disappeared and I didn’t want you think someone removed it purposefully.
I’ll stop trying to be polite now, it is obviously confusing people.
Villago Delenda Est
@Steve in the ATL: Dunno if he believes in Toronto’s NHL team or not. Strikes me more as an Edmonton Oilers fan.
Clem
@Adam L Silverman: Thanks, you must have accidentally deleted it so I put the link out there again.
hkedi
@Adam L Silverman: I kid, I kid…. Still I am looking forward to a FP post of yours on an overall critique of how well the feds handled the entire thing, if you ever get around to it. From my personal view I think (with the exception of the single fatality, which probably couldn’t have been avoided in any case), that law enforcement handled it masterfully. As frustrating as the entire thing was in the beginning, I hope that a LOT of internal papers are being written to use the lessons learned from this event.
Cheryl Rofer
@max: I agree that the business about needing arms to support an uprising against the government went down with the Civil War.
I’m old enough that I recall another era in which supporting armed uprisings against the government was looked poorly upon. Starting fairly soon after World War II, and continuing for much of the Cold War, it was the Communists who were promoting armed uprising against the government. Security clearance questionnaires asked about it; they had a whole long list of organizations said to promote armed uprisings.
That seems to have turned around in some big ways.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: Shit, I had to file answers to some as an AAG. I didn’t even look, to avoid the flashbacks.
I read the HCN essay that AL quotes yesterday and it’s quite a good read.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman:
I have been enjoying your decent and earnest attempts to politely engage with all and sundry. You seem to be a good egg; just remember where you are. Elbow-throwing is considered within the bonds of decency here.
Villago Delenda Est
@hkedi: I think the masterstroke is letting these guys basically fill out the charge sheets and provide the evidence to support the charges.
Adam L Silverman
@Clem: That’s all I was trying to figure out. Apparently the trash button has a hair trigger. I will endeavor not to point it at anyone ever again.
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Were you in the Habeas section? If so, when? I may drafted opinions on cases you were in.
Adam L Silverman
@hkedi: I’ll try to do something up over the next couple of days. I think they did an excellent job overall. In the case of Mr. Finicum, while tragic, I would expect that if I took off at high speed from a traffic stop, tried to avoid the spike strip and almost crashed the vehicular barricade, got out of my vehicle, yelled at the officers, failed to follow commands, and (perhaps most decisively) made a moment that could be interpreted as reaching for a weapon, then I would be shot. I don’t mean to make light of it. He died, but he put himself in that position. Its tragic because it didn’t happen, but if it isn’t suicide by cop it is damn close.
I’m sure the after action reviews have already begun, but what seems clear is that the hard lessons of Waco and Ruby Ridge and several other encounters that ended badly have been learned.
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: I showed several students where to place them earlier this evening.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: Mid 1990s, state AG, corrections litigation, 1983 actions, no habeas. Did you clerk SD or ND? I had cases in both – for no good reason. I tried a case from a hotel on Stringtown Rd, when there was a section full of lawyers on Front St.
Omnes Omnibus
@Omnes Omnibus:… may have drafted… I intend to hire a professional proofreader. Does anyone know one who will work for brandy and pâté?
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): SD in Columbus. 98-01.
Anya
I just read those indictments. Holy banannas, those idiots are toast. Does anyone know if “Daddy swore an oath” was part of the Bundy supporters who were pointing weapons at authorities?
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
You just missed me; I was in private criminal defense then. The rest of the career story is too complicated to bother with.
Omnes Omnibus
@Anya: Remember that the indictment contains the strongest arguments against the defendants without any input from the defense. But, yeah, toast.
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Fun stuff anyway. I loved working in that stately, roach infested building.
Adam L Silverman
@Anya: You mean Ritzheimer? He was there, whether he took up a sniper position is something I can’t answer.
Soylent Green
On Friday I’m going to try to get into the courtroom for the detention hearing of the Final Four occupiers. I hope arriving a couple hours early will suffice. Mainly I want to see what they do with David Fry. I expect Sean Anderson to be denied bail (for his threats to kill federal agents) but for Fry to be released, or at least turned over to some form of mental health facility.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Adam L Silverman: I don’t know that either, though I seem to recall his trusty AR was always within reach. Was Ryan Payne the sniper recruiter or was that Blaine Cooper?
Calouste
So, a farm that doesn’t really provide enough income, numerous associates with drugs and other convictions, who were openly using pot during the occupation… What do we think the chances are that Bundy’s cattle was just a cover for the pot growing operation?
Villago Delenda Est
@Adam L Silverman: If only LeVoy would have followed the advice that every last right winger always gives to blacks who are in confrontations with the police (abjectly surrender and get into a position of submission and do nothing to provoke them) he would have come out all right. But no, he thought his white skin protected him from bullets.
Adam L Silverman
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I’ve heard both claim to be in charge of security, but I think it was Payne who has claimed to have emplaced the snipers. The guy in the best known picture:
http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/534db531eab8eacf1caab272/why-one-man-traveled-almost-3000-miles-to-take-on-the-federal-government-at-a-ranch-in-nevada.jpg
is Eric Parker. I expect they’ll pick him up at some point.
ThresherK (GPad)
@Adam L Silverman: Thanks!
I used to read Edge of the West which closed up 2 years ago.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: The whole thing, in retrospect, seems to be well handled. The main people involved arrested. No LEO casualties. No fire fights only one casualty – who – as you said – came close to suicide by cop. Indictments for everyone. No satisfaction for people on either side who wanted fireworks. Oh well.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Adam L Silverman: And it will be an indictment that’s, er, robust with with citations to alleged violations of 18 USC sections. Many of which are easily documented. Good times to come.
Adam L Silverman
@ThresherK (GPad): You’re welcome. Its a very interesting read.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m sure someone will show up in an hour or so and claim its too little too late or took too long or there are still people out there they haven’t arrested yet and what are they waiting for. Not sure who that might be, but we’ll know em when we see em.
Anya
@Adam L Silverman: Yeah, that guy. He’s too stupid to live. He deserves extra charge for abandoning his kids.
@Omnes Omnibus: I hope one of you lawyers break it down for us and explain what each one means. I am assuming the federal prosecutor might drop some of those charges but if you consider what those idiots did, I think they’re in a lot of trouble. The feds would want to make them an example to deter other morons.
Adam L Silverman
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Yep, never does your defense any good when they have newspapers from every major photojournalist of you gleefully taking up a position to shoot a law enforcement officer from cover and a dozen or so interviews where you explain to journalists just why you think this is justified. My guess is that any defense attorney that has the misfortune of defending him is going to be drinking heavily.
Anya
@Adam L Silverman: Like the Oregon governor?
Omnes Omnibus
@Anya: Short answer: There is enough on film to support most of the charges so that it is ugly for the defendants. Long answer: Too late at night for me to do it.
Adam L Silverman
@Anya: I read somewhere that the most serious offense is the 1503: Obstruction of the Due Administration of Justice, with the 372: Conspiracy to Impede and Injure a Federal Officer and 115(a)(1)(B): Assault on a Federal Officer not far behind. I would think, but I’ll wait for Omnes and Hip Hop to weigh in (or is that Cole’s post), that the Interference with Interstate Commerce by Extortion and the Use and Carry of Firearm in Relation to a Crime of Violence are probably pretty serious too.
Adam L Silverman
@Anya: Sure, her too.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Soylent Green: I hope you can, though I’d imagine you’ll need more than a couple hours lead time, but they might have an overflow area with a feed if there’s a ton of press. I doubt either Anderson will get a bond, I think there are genuine questions of competency for Fry.
Adam L Silverman
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): They’ve already got him in suicide smocks and on suicide watch. My guess is he’ll be kept in a secure psych facility.
Anya
@Omnes Omnibus: @Adam L Silverman: Thank you much for that info. I expect a long, informative post from Adam & a long analysis from Omnes, at time convenient for you both.
I kid, I kid! I do appreciate your posts.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Adam L Silverman: He certainly should be in secure treatment. It’s too late for me to tackle indictment questions tonight, but if you’d like to email me specifics, I’ll (attempt to) answer them tomorrow. After I meet, coincidentally enough, with a forensics department staffer.
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: The Cliven one was originally put out last week when they arrested him. It was not clear to me from any reporting if they’d had it prepared with a sealed warrant and where just waiting for an optimum time to execute the arrest warrant, though I would think that would’ve been the case. When that initial charging document was released last week it listed four unnamed and unindicted co-conspirators, which many of us reasoned were Ammon and Ryan Bundy, Ryan Payne, and Santilli. Though it could have been Cavalier or Blaine instead of Payne and Santilli. What came out today is an amendment of last week’s Cliven only indictment. So that means that Ammon and Ryan Bundy, Ryan Payne, and Santilli are now facing charges in multiple jurisdiction. And part of the denial of bail for Santilli was based on his foaming at the mouth behavior at the Bundy Ranch Standoff, so this amended charging document provides additional support for both charging him and not releasing him.
Frankensteinbeck
@Omnes Omnibus:
Maybe most subtly and importantly, nobody is going to be driven to something like the OKC bombing by Malheur. Attempts to rallying cry it already have been utter flops. Sieges and gunfights are sexy. Being ignored as goofballs and then picked up at a traffic stop do not have the same oomph when inspiring fellow martyrs.
Omnes Omnibus
@Frankensteinbeck: Damp squib?
Wapiti
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class:
I think the sad truth of the American West is that a lot of people established farms and ranches in places that frankly couldn’t support them. My materal grandparents were both homesteading 160 acre farms in SE Colorado when they met. They went to Kansas during the Dust Bowl years. My granddad had 1120 acres of wheat land in Kansas when he passed away; that isn’t really enough to support a family these days.
Anne Laurie
@ThresherK (GPad): Sorry! Fixed now — I hope.
Monala
@Adam L Silverman: it’s the last two paragraphs of that piece that are the most powerful, about what is really at stake with federal lands. It deserves a post all its own.
Adam L Silverman
@Monala: which piece? The High Country News one?
Hob
This may or may not be what Chris @32’s succinct comment was getting at, but: Herring does himself no favors by introducing his story this way. I’m sure he meant that to sound like “I’m used to getting unfair criticism for my beliefs, so I thought these guys might be getting unfair criticism too, but it turns out they’re really just nuts.” Instead it comes off as “I’m full of the kind of self-pity that requires me to pretend I don’t understand what people’s problem with my beliefs really is”— so if anything, it makes me inclined to take anything he says about the Malheur gang (or anyone) with a grain of salt, even though I agree that they’re loons.
I mean, I can kind of get where someone could be coming from with that second sentence; the bit about mass shootings really is plausible as something that someone who’s pissed off about gun violence might say to someone like Herring, and if they said it that way, it’s no surprise that Herring would see it as unfair. But what kind of insane straw-person tells someone “If you like the countryside, it must be because you’re xenophobic”? I’ve heard people say nearly every fucked-up idiotic thing I could ever imagine, and I still cannot believe any actual person ever said that to Herring.
(That is, as opposed to “You’ve said a bunch of other shit that makes you sound xenophobic, so that makes me wonder if that’s what your cowboy thing is really about too.” I’m sure Herring is smart enough to understand that that wouldn’t reflect as well on him.)
Monala
@Adam L Silverman: yes.
Clyde
Was looking for info on the BLM rounding up Cliven’s cattle when I came across this link to a sovcit calling himself a medical doctor (trained by Youtube videos.) Judge claims he is more dangerous than a serial killer. Charged with 3 deaths.
pw
@Adam L Silverman:
You’d be right to think so. In terms of the potential sentence upon conviction, the most serious crimes charged are the 18 U.S.C. 924(c) violations. 924(c) makes it a crime, among other things, to use, carry or possess a firearm during and in relation to a crime of violence. Each defendant is charged with four counts of violating 924(c). The first conviction requires the sentencing judge to impose a mandatory minimum sentence of seven years in a case where the firearm was brandished. (The maximum term on a 924(c) violation is life.) Each subsequent conviction requires the imposition of a mandatory minimum sentence of 25 years. All 924(c) sentences are required to be imposed as consecutive sentences, to each other and to any other sentence that is imposed at the same time or that the defendant is already serving. Probation is prohibited. There is no parole in the federal system. It was abolished by the Sentencing Reform Act of 1984. So, if the five defendants are convicted as charged each is facing a mandatory minimum sentence of 82 years (7+25+25+25=82) on the 924(c) violations, which must be made consecutive to any other sentence on any of the other counts.
Central Planning
Saw this in USA Today. Looks like we are going for some money:
Groucho48
@Chris:
Yeah. Complete and utter tripe that the MSM will commiserative with.
Zinsky
I think Cheryl Rofer touched on this in post #8 upthread, but I wanted to provide a link an a comment. It seems these imbeciles that occupied the Malheur wildlife refuge left a trench of human feces on or near a sacred Indian burial site. Link here. These vile people more than likely did this out of spite and hatred for Native Americans, but even if they didn’t, I hope they face criminal trespass and vandalism charges, as well as civil suits that bankrupt all of them! Of course, if they can eat everything they left, I suppose the authorities could show some leniency!
Tripod
@Wapiti:
There’s that, coupled with the declining need for manual labor in agriculture and extraction.
Waving weapons around, and demanding the Feds sell off land isn’t going to change any of it.
Matt McIrvin
@Hob: Besides, isn’t the love of wilderness and empty lands and birdsong part of what the protection of federal lands is about? As opposed to treating them as consumables, to be eaten up and strip-mined and ripped up with our four-wheelers?
I know that in the minds of the sagebrush rebels there’s a strain of “those city folk say they love these places, but they only love them in the abstract, on the basis of some loopy Earth-worship principle; we never actually see them out here.” Though if they actually did all come out there it would be ruinous.
Lurking Canadian
@Hob: There is a soupçon of “the only reason not to live in a big city is racism” in some liberal-ish circles of cultural commentary, but you have to have very thin skin and a shoulder chip to let it bother you.
Ken
@Adam L Silverman: Sounds like Cliven might want to check out this thing called “agriculture.” It takes a little more effort than sitting around until you feel hungry and then going out and finding a wild cow, but there’s a bigger payoff.
Miss Bianca
“High Country News” is probably the best source out there for this type of western-state news and analysis. Glad to see it getting the love on BJ.
Miss Bianca
@Omnes Omnibus:
I have proof-read documents for publication for far less princely pay than pate and brandy. Just sayin’.
dimmsdale
I’m just going to throw something in here that hit me after listening to the fifth or sixth rambling Youtube dispatch from Malheur: this country does a sh8tty job of ensuring opportunity for its citizens, and by opportunity I mean (in this case in particular) decent jobs and a constructive way to spend one’s time, as opposed to hardscrabble under- or unemployment, with plenty of accompanying downtime to sit around and develop a lot of butthurt and derive a nutso philosophy that leads to a crusade, that finally FINALLY gives people the sense of purpose they’ve been missing.
This country is SO careless about the talents and dreams of its citizens, it’s ridiculous. (Granted, I’m assuming a lot of facts not in evidence about the economic circumstances of these people; I saw a lot of new or newish gear in the photos, late-model pickups, expensive firearms and so on, but you can still be circling the drain economically and buy yourself a new pair of boots. Doesn’t solve the larger problem, though.)
I’d have thought one of the best counter-militia moves the government could make would be a friggin’ JOBS PROGRAM, but what do I know. Unfortunately this country doesn’t work that way, as people of color could certainly attest.
Hope
Why are Waco and Ruby Ridge always referenced, but never the MOVE debacle?
Spinoza is my Co-pilot
@Hob: I had a very similar take on those couple of very telling sentences of Herring’s you highlighted. I agree it is highly-unlikely that anyone has ever called him a “xenophobe” or “noxious nativist” because he subscribes to liberal Sierra Club ideals rather than, I don’t know, preferring the streets of Manhattan above any other locale. And he’s not even actually making that claim – he says he “risks” being tagged with those negative terms. So yeah, comes across as self-pity for taking such a brave and noble stand that few (the subtext) would dare risk these days. Bullshit, no such risk, and his position is nowhere near as lonely as he pretends it is. It’s fairly ordinary, in fact, and he has to know that.
On guns, I’m ok with the self-defense part (while recognizing the strong arguments on the gun control side against even that) but pull up hard at “if need be, liberation”. Liberation from whom, exactly? Well, we all know what he means: he’s talking potential armed insurrection against the government. Sorry, but that’s an absurd position in regards to the purpose of the second amendment, one which only gun nuts with a seriously crack-brained understanding of history hold. The Civil War, sure, but at the very beginning of our nation there were Shay’s and the Whiskey Rebellions, both of which put the lie to the notion that the Constitution gives individuals – or groups of like-minded “aggrieved parties” – the right to take up arms against our government, even if such individuals or groups believe the government is acting “tyrannically”.
Miss Bianca
@Hob: @Spinoza is my Co-pilot:
As someone who actually does live in the very rural West (county population: <5,000, not including cows and horses) I can state with some authority that there actually ARE a lot of xenophobic nutcases out here. Misanthropes who move here specifically to get their ranchettes, gate 'em off, and say, "stay the f*ck away from me". Being polite types for the most part, we tend toward a "sure, I'll stay away from you, you stay away from me, and we'll all be happy all day" attitude towards our neighbors with Attitude. So…I don't find it odd that someone might feel compelled to say, "hey, I'm not one of THOSE guys".
Along those same lines, there are also a lot of guys out here like this author, who feel the need to strut their bro-literian cred (hey, I read Edward Abbey! Whoo-hoo, I'm a badass!) before going on to make their point about whatever. In a way, it looks ridiculous, but in a way, you get forced into it here. I have found myself prefacing my thoughts on firearms or public lands regulation or taxation, with an automatic genuflection towards the (perceived) sensibilities of my neighbors: "hey, look, I hunt, I fish, I may be from back East but I get it about the West" blah blah blah in order not to get automatically dismissed as one of "those Eastern liberal types trying to tell us what to do!" (you only need to read the comments on that HCN article to see that particular trolling pattern in full force).
That being said, I do draw the line at drinking the kool-aid marked "2nd Amendment means the right to bear arms against government tyranny!!11!!". No. Just…no. And I do tend to think less of someone who apparently believes it. That being said (again), I thought this article really hit the nail on the head about these folks. Managed to leaven my unmitigated contempt with a bit more compassion than I started with, and that can't be a bad thing.
@dimmsdale: I agree. I think a large public works program – particularly out west – would be awesome. Of course, then you have the comical (?) prospect of a bunch of people being helped – helped even more, I should say – by the very federal government they claim to despise.
Paul in KY
@max: Basically, we did not want a standing army, as England and France & some other European nation states had (by late 18th century). The ‘militia’ was to be our army, if/when we needed one.
tam1MI
@Hope:
Local authorities were responsible for the MOVE fiasco. Waco and Ruby Ridge were the Feds.
opiejeanne
@Spinoza is my Co-pilot: I posted a link to this article on Facebook with the warning to my friends that the first couple of paragraphs were “difficult”, but to stick with it especially from the middle of the essay on. I was disinclined to read it after the nonsense at the beginning, but did anyway and learned a few things, like who was that idiot in the State of Jefferson hat. He’s been indicted too.
There are a lot of articles right now with somewhat less of the nonsense at the beginning, that all begin by reminding us that there is some sympathy with the two arsonists/ranchers who were at the center of the protest in Burns, but that it stops there and goes on to an almost gleeful recounting of the locals’ disgust at the bad behavior of the protesters in town, discovers that almost everyone wants them to go home, and then lists a laundry list of charges.
The gloomiest article I’ve seen was in an Idaho paper with a title very similar to the one on this post. It reported the high level of animosity to Federal officials, the BLM, etc. and just did not allow that the arrests would slow down any of this rebellion. It was from Idaho, though, so they are looking at possibly a higher percentage of people with this kind of extreme distaste for the government, and being sandwiched between Eastern Washington and Montana the author may have reason to not have as cheerful an outlook as those of us to the west of the Cascades.
opiejeanne
On Tuesday the Oregon legislature moved to protect the identity of the OSP who shot LaVoy Finicum. I was really relieved to see that, although there is some bitching from idiots about governing from behind a mask is bad policy.
Last week there was at least one person offering a reward for the name of the shooter, to be paid upon “capture” of the officer. It was reported to the FBI and I hope the Feds deal with this idiot.
Adam L Silverman
@Hope: That was local police, not the FBI. Though the bomb was dropped from a Pennsylvania State Police helicopter and some of the components of the bomb had been supplied to the Philadelphia PD by the FBI. Regardless, it is viewed as a local police department screw up.
Spinoza is my Co-pilot
@Miss Bianca: @opiejeanne:
I get the “prophylaxis” at play in Herring’s beginning statements that Hob and I discussed, and I did find the rest of his essay a good and informative read. So, those two sentences certainly don’t negate the rest.
I don’t even really have much problem with the first — if that’s the sort of thing someone in his position feels necessary to say to inoculate himself against being dismissed as “one of those East Coast libtard environmentalists who don’t understand what life’s like for us rugged individualist Real ‘Murican Westerners” then fine, have at it. We all know how thin-skinned and easily-butthurt those rugged individualists are, so common cause with the whole “am NOT a xenophobic noxious nativist, no sir!” and all that is understandable.
But “I’m constitutionally-protected to take up arms against my government, if need be” is most definitely a bridge too far. He’s not constitutionally-protected for any such thing and, whether he recognizes it or not, such a belief puts him squarely in the camp of Y’all Quaeda and all the gun nuts who think the second amendment gives them the right to, as they say “water the tree of liberty”.
Interesting historical side-note: that quote from Jefferson was originally made in rhetorical support of Shay’s Rebellion, which rebellion was (arguably, but it’s a good argument) an important impetus to the supplanting of the Articles of Confederation by the Constitution and the creation of a stronger federal government. Taking the position that the principles of the armed insurrection of Shay’s Rebellion (truly aggrieved as many participants were) and supporting statements (like Jefferson’s famous one) is what the Constitution stands for has it exactly backwards.
Miss Bianca
@Spinoza is my Co-pilot:
Ahem…*coughs apologetically*…I did specifically single out Herring’s 2nd Amendment fantasies as a point of contention with his worldview. But just because my neighbor is crazy on one particular point doesn’t mean I disagree with him on everything, nor do I think it automatically invalidates everything else he may say. Just FTR.
ETA: And yes…that type of prophylaxis *is* necessary out here. Again, just refer to the comments on the HCN article. You’ll see the author get attacked as a “whackjob” from the right pretty much right out of the gate. It would be amusing to us lefty-libertarian types if it weren’t so exhausting and irritating to have to deal with.