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You are here: Home / Past Elections / Election 2016 / Democratic Debate Open Thread

Democratic Debate Open Thread

by Betty Cracker|  January 17, 20168:55 pm| 278 Comments

This post is in: Election 2016, Open Threads, Politics

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We were debating whether to watch the Democratic debate or Downton Abbey. I was for Downton. The kiddo was for the debate. And the mister nodded off.

I deferred to the kid on the grounds that this is the first election she’ll be eligible to vote in, so she’s excited, and I don’t want to discourage her. Lord knows there will be plenty of time for cynicism and boredom later.

Open thread!

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Previous Post: « Long Read: “Wall Street’s Straight Man in Washington”
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Reader Interactions

278Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 8:56 pm

    Just wait till she discovers Balloon Juice.

  2. 2.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 8:57 pm

    Reposted from last thread

    Bernie just released his Medicare for All plan. Vox has the rundown here.

  3. 3.

    gogol's wife

    January 17, 2016 at 8:57 pm

    All those people who say Downton is boring. I just have to say, I just watched episode 2 for the THIRD time in the past week, and I wasn’t bored in the slightest. These actors are so skilled, you can watch them endlessly. Just their reaction shots are a master class. Mr. Drewe is brilliant!

  4. 4.

    Eric NNY

    January 17, 2016 at 8:59 pm

    Cynicism can wait. Engage while you have the opportunity.

  5. 5.

    Corner Stone

    January 17, 2016 at 8:59 pm

    I deferred to the kid on the grounds that this is the first election she’ll be eligible to vote in

    I am so not even close to being able to understand what that feeling is like, as a parent.

  6. 6.

    RandomMonster

    January 17, 2016 at 9:00 pm

    I’m hoping to not watch one debate this entire election.

  7. 7.

    muddy

    January 17, 2016 at 9:02 pm

    Oh, it’s only on regular NBC. I was watching them come out on MSNBC and suddenly Tweety came on. So there’s apparently a delay between that and what is now on NBC. Probably for all the swearing.

  8. 8.

    TriassicSands

    January 17, 2016 at 9:02 pm

    If Hillary Clinton loses both Iowa and New Hampshire, will Wasserman Schultz suddenly discover the need for more debates?

  9. 9.

    dmsilev

    January 17, 2016 at 9:03 pm

    How many asinine questions can we expect from Andrea Mitchell tonight? I’ll go with 20.

  10. 10.

    Betty Cracker

    January 17, 2016 at 9:03 pm

    @Corner Stone: It’ll happen so fast you won’t believe it. Hopefully you’re raising a Democrat too.

  11. 11.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 9:03 pm

    @TriassicSands:

    And will everyone who wanted more debates oppose it?

  12. 12.

    Corner Stone

    January 17, 2016 at 9:04 pm

    @TriassicSands: If she did lose Iowa and NH, so what? And then?

  13. 13.

    the Conster

    January 17, 2016 at 9:07 pm

    Posted from previous thread, but ODS suffering jealous unhinged fool Cornel West is repping for Bernie in South Carolina. Who’s next – Allen West? Are there that many angry white brogressives?

  14. 14.

    ? Martin

    January 17, 2016 at 9:08 pm

    @Baud:

    Friedman finds that a typical family of four with wages of $50,000 and an employer health-plan with $4,955 in annual premiums and a $1,318 deductible would pay only $466 through the new 2.2 percent tax, and save $5,807, or 12 percent of income, on net. Friedman also finds that an employer paying $12,591 toward an employee’s health plan would pay $3,100 in the new 6.2 percent payroll tax, and save $9,491.

    Hmm. There is not that much bloat in the current healthcare system to account for 90% savings for taxpayers and 75% savings for employers. Let’s see what Richard says about this, but I’m skeptical the savings are that distinct.

    I can see how a Medicare A for all could clearly save money. I’m a bit less convinced of the benefits of Medicare B for all.

  15. 15.

    Corner Stone

    January 17, 2016 at 9:08 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Oh, he’s 11 and he’s ready to go to the walls, citizens.
    We just recently discussed Flint, MI. He asks his Republican grandparents (my ex IL) really deadpan questions. It’s amazeballs.

    ETA, but WTS I am so not ready. He’s huge and stinky and defiant and a real person. When did that all happen?

  16. 16.

    TriassicSands

    January 17, 2016 at 9:09 pm

    @Baud:

    I haven’t read Sanders’ plan yet, but I do hope it isn’t really Medicare-For-All, because Medicare is at best mediocre insurance. Only with MediGap supplementary plans do the elderly get good to excellent health insurance. Add to that the inferior Medicare Part D prescription drug plan with its ridiculous “donut hole” and Medicare-For-All should be referred to as Mediocre-Care-For-All. Is that what we’re really looking for?

  17. 17.

    muddy

    January 17, 2016 at 9:09 pm

    @Betty Cracker: I raised a Democrat. He got to vote for the first time in 2000. Poor kid. He’s still a Democrat.

  18. 18.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 9:09 pm

    @Betty Cracker:
    @Corner Stone:

    Good for both of you.

  19. 19.

    GregB

    January 17, 2016 at 9:10 pm

    This is outrageous, not a single question about Benghazi yet!

  20. 20.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 9:10 pm

    @TriassicSands:

    He just released it. I’m sure there will be mucho analysis over the next week.

  21. 21.

    muddy

    January 17, 2016 at 9:11 pm

    @the Conster: I’m no fan of Cornel West, but isn’t he allowed to like Bernie if he wants to? Is it supposed to not be allowed if you’re black?

  22. 22.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 9:11 pm

    I hope they ask different questions in this debate.

  23. 23.

    Eric

    January 17, 2016 at 9:11 pm

    @the Conster: Those two sure have a lot in common. Like they’re black, dislike Clinton and… um…. well… yeah.

  24. 24.

    dmsilev

    January 17, 2016 at 9:12 pm

    @Baud: What’s _your_ opening statement?

  25. 25.

    the Conster

    January 17, 2016 at 9:13 pm

    @muddy:

    Bernie doesn’t need any of Obama’s coalition? Really?

  26. 26.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 9:13 pm

    @dmsilev:

    “I can’t believe I’m losing to these guys.”

  27. 27.

    muddy

    January 17, 2016 at 9:14 pm

    @the Conster: I don’t understand this question?

  28. 28.

    dmsilev

    January 17, 2016 at 9:14 pm

    @Baud: That’s because they barred you from the debate. Conspiracy!

  29. 29.

    SoupCatcher

    January 17, 2016 at 9:15 pm

    Kind of sounded like something was going on off camera during O’Malley’s gun control answer.

  30. 30.

    TriassicSands

    January 17, 2016 at 9:17 pm

    They just asked all three candidates what their first three priorities would be after taking office. Somehow all three described their agendas and none of them told me who they hate and want to screw. None of them suggested bombing Iran back to the Stone Age. How is that possible? After all, doesn’t American economic prosperity depend on our constantly using and replenishing our high explosive arsenal? It makes no sense at all to allow bombs to become obsolete because of age, when they could be exploding somewhere in the world and striking fear into the hearts and minds of non-combatants everywhere.

  31. 31.

    the Conster

    January 17, 2016 at 9:18 pm

    @muddy:

    Bernie letting West shit talk Obama in defense of Bernie in South Carolina is not smart.

  32. 32.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 9:19 pm

    Test

  33. 33.

    Socraticsilence

    January 17, 2016 at 9:19 pm

    @the Conster:

    Nicely reductive with the “angry white brogressives” it’s like going “man look at that Hillary crowd, who knew there were that man investment bankers and angry menopausal feminists” .

  34. 34.

    Iowa Old Lady

    January 17, 2016 at 9:22 pm

    I finally figured out why I’m not responding to Sanders’s big vision, even though I agree with most of it. The Obama years taught me two things: a president can do only so much, and the Republicans will break the country (again) given half a chance. So my first priority is to put a Democrat in the WH. Beyond that I want suggestions for changes a president can actually achieve under current circumstances.

  35. 35.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 9:22 pm

    OLIGARCHY!

  36. 36.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 9:24 pm

    @David *Rafael* Koch:

    We need to replace the OLIGARCHY with a BAUDTOCRACY!!!

  37. 37.

    muddy

    January 17, 2016 at 9:25 pm

    @the Conster: Is he actually shit talking Obama while stumping for Bernie? Or is it that he was shit talking Obama the other times and so now no one who likes Obama should talk to him? I’m not trying to have an argument and am not on a side, as I said I’m no fan of Cornell West.

    But I guess some people are, and I just assumed he’d go out to convince those people that he likes Bernie better than Hillary. I can’t think shit talking Obama would be helpful in those circumstances. I don’t think Bernie would be down for it either. But as I said, I don’t know what West has said in SC recently.

    My original point was just that Cornel West can support whomever he wants for president. Again, is there a reason that he is not allowed to support Bernie? Or Baud, or anyone?

  38. 38.

    WarMunchkin

    January 17, 2016 at 9:26 pm

    @Iowa Old Lady: I’ve been doing the same internal pacing myself. From Obama, I know Sanders’ policies are a pipe dream; from Obama v. Clinton 2008, I know Clinton surrounds herself with… I don’t know, Clintonland? I’m having real trouble with this primary.

  39. 39.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 9:27 pm

    @? Martin: It’s a great plan — that’s why it was so easy to adopt in deep blue Vermont. Oh, wait….

  40. 40.

    the Conster

    January 17, 2016 at 9:27 pm

    @Socraticsilence:

    There is a lot of mistrust in the twitterverse – well deserved – of Bernie supporters because of the way they disparage PBOs accomplishments and what priorities should be. A LOT of anger and mistrust. Cornel West is totemic of the kind of PBO shit talking they like – Trumplike, you might say.

  41. 41.

    Mike J

    January 17, 2016 at 9:28 pm

    @David *Rafael* Koch: I want a Stan and Olliegarchy.

  42. 42.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    January 17, 2016 at 9:29 pm

    I hope you people are happy that you taught me to fuck with Siri.
    Answers to :which came first, the chicken or the egg:

    Well you can set an egg timer, but you cant set a chicken timer. I don’t know if that helps.

    In a race, the chicken, definitely, Unless it’s downhill.

    Neil DeGrasse Tyson told me they both spontaneously combusted into existence at exactly the same femtosecond.

  43. 43.

    Trentrunner

    January 17, 2016 at 9:29 pm

    Cornel West is a grifter, a clown, and fraud. I wouldn’t listen to him on anything ever.

  44. 44.

    the Conster

    January 17, 2016 at 9:30 pm

    @WarMunchkin:

    Me too, WarMunchkin, me too. I wish Biden had run, just to have another high profile voice in the mix.

  45. 45.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    January 17, 2016 at 9:30 pm

    Not much new in the questions so far. I’m not sure that more debates would illuminate the race very well…

    I did like that Holt directly asked MOM what his responsibility was for the system in Baltimore that lead to the death of Freddy Gray. I thought MOM’s answer was good, as far as it went. Of course, with the limited time there was much he didn’t say.

    I wonder how the health care questions will go…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  46. 46.

    NotMax

    January 17, 2016 at 9:32 pm

    @Baud

    Looking forward to the premiere of your mid-season premiering series, Breaking Baud.

  47. 47.

    CaseyL

    January 17, 2016 at 9:33 pm

    I’m not watching the debate, because I’m not in the mood to worry about what the moderators will do, so I’m relying on y’all to follow what’s going on.

  48. 48.

    Felonius Monk

    January 17, 2016 at 9:33 pm

    @Baud:

    We need to replace the OLIGARCHY with a BAUDTOCRACY!!!

    Will your supporters be known as Baudocrats?

  49. 49.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 9:34 pm

    @muddy: he’s allowed to support anyone he wants, but Sanders makes a giant mistake embracing him and actually campaigning with him, side-by-side, as he is box office poison after saying President Obama is a white “republican in blackface” and “the first niggerized president”. Putting your arm around someone who calls President Obama a “nigger” will get you a one way ticket to loserville.

  50. 50.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 9:36 pm

    REVOLUTION!

  51. 51.

    Iowa Old Lady

    January 17, 2016 at 9:36 pm

    @WarMunchkin: Yeah, it doesn’t seem like it should be so hard because either of them would be better than any of the Republicans, so why worry? But when I look at Trump, Cruz, Rubio, et al, I’m scared at the possibilities.

  52. 52.

    muddy

    January 17, 2016 at 9:37 pm

    @David *Rafael* Koch: It was not Medicare for all or even similar. The reasons it didn’t work out were not about the blueness of the voters, a major part of it was due to the software company doing a shitty job. It also had nothing to do with Bernie, who works in the federal government not in the state.

    It’s fine not to like Bernie, I don’t know that I want him for president either. You don’t have to make stuff up.

  53. 53.

    dmsilev

    January 17, 2016 at 9:38 pm

    Q: “Vermont decided that single-payer would be too expensive. Can you comment?”
    Sanders: “Campaign finance sucks”.

    Oy.

  54. 54.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 9:39 pm

    @Felonius Monk: The kids will be called Baudettes.

  55. 55.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 9:39 pm

    Sanders needs to quit dismissing questions about why single payer policy was cancelled in Vermont. Leaves impression that he is hiding something (higher costs?).

    Actually, pretty much every study showed that single payer would have saved money in VT, and the savings shrank as VT guv made political decisions to change it in order to postpone detailed fiscal planning.

    It’s not rocket science, Bernie.

  56. 56.

    gene108

    January 17, 2016 at 9:40 pm

    What’s wrong with the private insurance industry? They are not driving the cost of healthcare.

    They do shannanigans to maximize profits, but that goes for every business.

  57. 57.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 9:41 pm

    @muddy: SOFTWARE OLIGARCHY !

    WE HAVE TO STOP SKYNET BEFORE IT STOPS US!

    ENOUGH IS ENOUGH SKYNET – YOU CAN’T HAVE IT ALL!

  58. 58.

    Ruckus

    January 17, 2016 at 9:41 pm

    @Iowa Old Lady:
    This is my position exactly. Sanders could be more effective where he is but other than nice speeches what has he done in congress? He’s been there for a while, what bills has he sponsored that would bring about any of the changes he advocates for, even if they would be DOA? I know that a lot of the same could be said about Clinton, but her track record and what she advocates for seems to be more possible. She’s not trying to reinvent the wheel, just keep it turning. And in a system with as many veto points as our federal elected offices have keeping that wheel rolling forward is far more important than any bully pulpit ideas.

  59. 59.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 9:44 pm

    @dmsilev: when NKorea did their nuclear test he was on GMA and he was asked what should the US do and he responded we need to put pressure on China. And he was asked what kind of pressure and he said, “you know, pressure”.

    Now who could argue with that.

  60. 60.

    MomSense

    January 17, 2016 at 9:44 pm

    I like what Bernie says in terms of values but I think he falls short in terms of specifics. If I ruled the world I would love to have single payer health care but I think Clinton is correct when she talks about not having the votes for it. We fought really hard to get the ACA passed and we are still in the defending stage.

  61. 61.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 9:45 pm

    WHAT DO YOU MEAN I’M SHOUTING!

    I’M NOT SHOUTING! THIS IS MY INSIDE VOICE!

  62. 62.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 9:46 pm

    Reminder: Only Baudcare covers pets.

    Technically, Baudcare only covers pets.

    Details.

  63. 63.

    muddy

    January 17, 2016 at 9:46 pm

    @jl: He should. I have to admit I stopped listening to the debate because they kept raising their voices like it was a rousing mini campaign speech rather than just answering questions at a podium.

    I guess they want to show how passionate they are. At the point I muted the tv, Martin O’Malley had not yet shouted but the other 2 did. I plan to FF and see if he shouts too. If he restrains himself he may have gained a supporter. ;-)

  64. 64.

    sparrow

    January 17, 2016 at 9:49 pm

    @dmsilev: not good. I’m probably, almost certainly voting for Bernie in the primaries, but his healthcare stance is one thing that has me kind of “meh”. But, I probably should read the plan. People are amped up enough about healthcare change right now, going out and saying “hey that new plan we just spent so much time agonizing over and getting used to? We’re going to do something completely new that the republicans will hate 10,000x more! Won’t that be fun!”… is not a good campaign issue right now.

  65. 65.

    MomSense

    January 17, 2016 at 9:49 pm

    BTW red wine and dark chocolate with chili pepper is tasty.

  66. 66.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 9:49 pm

    @? Martin: I think we’ll have to read Friedman’s analysis to understand those numbers. The topline estimate of total costs as percent of national GDP at the beginning of the vox post indicates Sanders’ plan is aiming for a 44 percent cut.

    He wants to get down to Netherlands level of health care spending as percent of GDP. Seems pretty ambitious to me.

  67. 67.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 9:49 pm

    @muddy: Where’s Ben Carson when you need him?

  68. 68.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    January 17, 2016 at 9:50 pm

    MOM is much more polished this debate than I’ve seen him in previous ones. He seems to be getting his legs – but it is very late in the pre-vote horse race.

    I wonder if he’ll end up being “the comeback kid” this cycle, somehow. It would be nice for him to get a decent bump and more attention from the press.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  69. 69.

    Ruckus

    January 17, 2016 at 9:51 pm

    @MomSense:
    My point in a nut shell. Remember when various people said if President Obama had just made better speeches (the Bully Pulpit!) we’d have single payer. I had to explain to friends that it just doesn’t work that way. Congress critters have power, maybe not as much individually as the president but they do have it. Sometimes they abuse it and sometimes they are worthless sacks of shit but they still have that power. If they work together at all they can stop lots of good ideas on how to make this a better place to live. For proof, as if anyone here needs it, just look at our current congress.

  70. 70.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 9:51 pm

    WE’RE DOOOOMED!!

  71. 71.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 9:51 pm

    @muddy: I tuned in late, and started to listen just after the health care stuff started. I’ll catch up on who got yelly later.

    At least I haven’t heard any stupid GOP type stunts yet.

  72. 72.

    Ruckus

    January 17, 2016 at 9:52 pm

    @MomSense:
    You’re giving me a migraine just thinking about that.

    And yes it sounds great.

  73. 73.

    muddy

    January 17, 2016 at 9:53 pm

    @Baud: I’m thinking that his energy level averaged with Bernie’s might be okay.

  74. 74.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 9:53 pm

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I think MOM is always polished. He just hasn’t had much to say, after very polished promises to say something amazing and terrific. Which I think hurts him greatly.

  75. 75.

    dmsilev

    January 17, 2016 at 9:54 pm

    Clinton is being quite a bit more aggressive tonight.

  76. 76.

    goblue72

    January 17, 2016 at 9:55 pm

    @Ruckus: Sanders has been quite successful in pushing through legislation while in the legislative minority utilizing the amendment process – far more so than Clinton did while she was in the Senate.

    His record.

    He actually gets things done. The Hilbot attitude around here about “bro-gressives” and Sanders just being all talk is franky getting a bit tiresome and boring.

  77. 77.

    Keith G

    January 17, 2016 at 9:55 pm

    @gene108:

    They do shannanigans to maximize profits, but that goes for every business.

    If Walmart pulls shenanigans, I can live with it. If the company that I depend on to help me stay alive pulls shenanigans, I am fucked.

    And already, the Big Evil Insurance Corp that I switched to has bent me over a table, but I do have 30 days to appeal.

    So there’s that.

  78. 78.

    dmsilev

    January 17, 2016 at 9:56 pm

    @Baud:

    Reminder: Only Baudcare covers pets.

    Technically, Baudcare only covers pets.

    Details.

    If I have a pet name for my SO, does that count?

  79. 79.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 9:57 pm

    @jl: to achieve those cuts, that would require direct or indirect price controls and rationing, ie – denying expensive procedures that have low success rates, otherwise known as the Oregon Health Plan death panels.

    During 2008 and 2009, the Oregon Health Plan stirred up controversy when enforcing 1994 guidelines[19] to only cover comfort care, and not to cover cancer treatment such as chemotherapy, surgery and radiotherapy for patients with less than a 5% chance of survival over five years.[20]

    Springfield resident Barbara Wagner said her oncologist prescribed the chemotherapy drug Tarceva for her lung cancer, but that Oregon Health Plan officials sent her a letter declining coverage for the drug, and informing her that they will only pay for palliative care and physician-assisted dying. She appealed the denial twice, but lost both times.

  80. 80.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 9:57 pm

    @dmsilev: Baud: bad for the cheese trade, bad for paw-paws, bad for Bitcoin. Baud: bad for America!

    If Baud cannot address the concerns of the average working stiff, why should anyone vote for him?
    Baud has gotten off pretty easy in the debate so far.

  81. 81.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    January 17, 2016 at 9:57 pm

    @jl: A major part of the problem is that, when most of the public hears the sentence, “My plan will require higher taxes, but it will cost you less on net because of the money you won’t have to spend on health insurance premiums,” they assume that the comma after ‘taxes’ is a period and they ignore the rest of the sentence. No one has ever figures out how to explain the concept of ‘on net’ to the public, and I have zero confidence that President Sanders would be the guy who would figure out how to solve that problem.

  82. 82.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 9:58 pm

    @David *Rafael* Koch: I’m not going to argue about it until I read the plan.

  83. 83.

    MomSense

    January 17, 2016 at 9:58 pm

    @Ruckus:

    We only got the ACA passed with incredible grass roots organizing in all 50 states. The states who had Senators on the Senate Finance Committee did extra work and had extra help in the form of Organizing for America and labor unions. It was an intense effort. It’s a total pipe dream to think we can pass single payer any time soon.

    Also too, right now I just want Clinton to squish O’Malley like a bug. I really wanted to like him but I’ve come to the conclusion that he is in this for the grift.

  84. 84.

    goblue72

    January 17, 2016 at 9:59 pm

    @David *Rafael* Koch: Yes and? I don’t see anything wrong with denying payment on an expensive treatment with a 5% success rate.

  85. 85.

    Bob In Portland

    January 17, 2016 at 9:59 pm

    @dmsilev: And it doesn’t become her. She lies and smears. It’s pretty obvious. I find myself yelling “liar” at the TV.

  86. 86.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 10:00 pm

    DA BILLIONAIRE CLASS!

  87. 87.

    the Conster

    January 17, 2016 at 10:00 pm

    The irony is that the ACA was really the outermost limit of what could actually be passed – remember, without any Republican votes, and not all Dems voted for it. Medicare wasn’t born full blown and immutable. Single payer is not going to happen this next election cycle, or the one after or the one after that. There seems to be some kind of blind spot in Bernie’s supporters that leads them to think that Bernie will be have magic powers as president that Magic Negro Obama couldn’t summon to force passage of single payer, that he hasn’t yet exhibited in the Senate all these years – he’ll be extra bullying when it’s his pulpit or something. Not a fan of Hillary either. Go Martin O’Malley!

  88. 88.

    WarMunchkin

    January 17, 2016 at 10:00 pm

    @sparrow: I don’t remember whether it was this blog or some other, but I remember reading that this discussion, while a bit pie-in-the-sky, is doing a good job of pushing the Dems from being complacent about the ACA. Because seriously, people do have problems with it, and it sucks that we’re forced to defend it with all of our might against the onslaught.

    I can’t say I’m too happy with Sanders from this debate, but whenever Clinton says something that isn’t straight out of right-wing framing, I can’t help but think, “c’mon, you don’t really believe that”. And the weird part about politics is that personality pulls a crowd’s ideology. Clinton pulls normal Democrats rightward, and that’s a bit scary after the “compassionate conservatism” stuff that W. peddled.

    I don’t know, maybe I’ll just vote for baud

  89. 89.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 10:02 pm

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym: Well, I am a Sanders mega-donor and I wrote the old coot on the best way to do it. Probably sitting in a trash can someplace.

    As a mega-donor, I’ll sign him up for a hot rolls and ham of the month club and tell him to quit.

    I told Sanders to Go Swiss. Why does Sanders hate the Swiss?

    As for finance, I want Berilly Cinters to win. I want strongest parts of both their financial regulation plans.

  90. 90.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 10:02 pm

    @goblue72: it means you’re condemning 5% of the curable to an unnecessary death.

    you guys aren’t too well thought out, are you.

  91. 91.

    donnah

    January 17, 2016 at 10:02 pm

    Betty, catch a replay of Downton. I cried like a baby at the end.

  92. 92.

    debbie

    January 17, 2016 at 10:02 pm

    @gogol’s wife:

    I’m not liking Isobel’s stridency.

  93. 93.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 10:03 pm

    @dmsilev:

    If I have a pet name for my SO, does that count?

    Ok, but if the health care fraud inspectors investigate, one of you needs to wear the cat costume.

  94. 94.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 10:04 pm

    @WarMunchkin:

    My campaign needs more disillusioned people like you.

  95. 95.

    Mandalay

    January 17, 2016 at 10:04 pm

    @Trentrunner:

    Cornel West is a grifter, a clown, and fraud. I wouldn’t listen to him on anything ever.

    Mostly true, but he has been a rare voice for (accurately) pointing out that the Democrats have been taking the black vote for granted for years, and have given back very little in return for their support.

    That important message is worth listening to, even if you don’t like the messenger.

  96. 96.

    Steeplejack

    January 17, 2016 at 10:04 pm

    @dmsilev:

    How many asinine questions can we expect from Andrea Mitchell tonight?

    All of them, Katie.

  97. 97.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    January 17, 2016 at 10:04 pm

    @goblue72:

    Yes and? I don’t see anything wrong with denying payment on an expensive treatment with a 5% success rate.

    I agree, but overwhelmingly, the American public does not. The Cadillac tax just got squashed, and it’s a tiny version of what Sanders’ plan would need to do in order to meet his cost projections. The moment the AMA took to the airwaves against single payer, complaining about how much it would hurt your beloved family doctor, single payer would get slaughtered. A fight between doctors and Congress over who Americans trust more is a fight Congress would lose in a rout.

  98. 98.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 10:05 pm

    @WarMunchkin: I think HRC is hurting herself when she falls back on that tactic.

  99. 99.

    gogol's wife

    January 17, 2016 at 10:06 pm

    @debbie:

    They’re kind of overdoing it. But it gives Dame Maggie so much to do.

  100. 100.

    SoupCatcher

    January 17, 2016 at 10:06 pm

    So glad I didn’t have “I’m the only one on this stage…” for my drinking quote.

    Mix it up a bit, Martin.

  101. 101.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 10:06 pm

    @dmsilev:

    Clinton is being quite a bit more aggressive tonight.

    I would love to she her play opposite of Tom Cruise in the next Mission Impossible movie.

  102. 102.

    gogol's wife

    January 17, 2016 at 10:07 pm

    @debbie:

    Beautiful scene at the beginning between Robert and Violet, though, right?

  103. 103.

    Bob In Portland

    January 17, 2016 at 10:07 pm

    Did they give the question about the economy to Andrea Mitchell because of her husband?

  104. 104.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 10:07 pm

    @Steeplejack: Candidates, especially Sanders, doing a good job of telling her to stuff it so far. Good practice for any corporate hack moderators in final two debates, when I assume more people will be watching.

    Edit: who is the deep voiced plug Lester Holt? He’s not much better than Mitchell, maybe just as bad.

    Edit2: Who is he anyway?

  105. 105.

    gene108

    January 17, 2016 at 10:09 pm

    @the Conster:

    Single payer is not going to happen this next election cycle, or the one after or the one after that. There seems to be some kind of blind spot in Bernie’s supporters that leads them to think that Bernie will be have magic powers as president

    There are liberals, who want to tear things down just as badly as right-wingers do. They are not interested in what is possible. They want us to become a Scandinavian style economy yesterday.

  106. 106.

    Suzanne

    January 17, 2016 at 10:11 pm

    @Corner Stone: Spawn the Elder just turned twelve, and all of a sudden she’s amazing. I mean, she’s always been a great kid—smart, funny, engaging. But like, she LEVELED UP as a person and it’s awesome.

  107. 107.

    Keith G

    January 17, 2016 at 10:11 pm

    @David *Rafael* Koch: And if the cost of curing* that 5% means that many more times that amount of others (more often than not poor) might not get easier access rather standard medical care, what then?

    *As often as not, those last-chance 5% cures actually do not cure but only extend the fight against a mortal condition just months longer.

  108. 108.

    Corner Stone

    January 17, 2016 at 10:12 pm

    @goblue72: Damn. What a fucking troll you are. Shut up, troll.

  109. 109.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 10:14 pm

    I can’t believe they are doing commentary in the middle of the debate. Is that new this year?

  110. 110.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    January 17, 2016 at 10:14 pm

    The NBC intermission music on YouTube is annoying – it’s 1-2 bars just looping. Boodaboodabooda boo. Boodaboodabooda boo. Boodaboodabooda boo. Boodaboodabooda boo.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  111. 111.

    SoupCatcher

    January 17, 2016 at 10:15 pm

    Harumph. Wish I would’ve known they were going to have “halftime commentary” from Chuck Todd.

    Do not like.

  112. 112.

    debbie

    January 17, 2016 at 10:15 pm

    @gogol’s wife:

    Very. And the ending, for me, was a happy surprise.

  113. 113.

    FlyingToaster

    January 17, 2016 at 10:15 pm

    @David *Rafael* Koch: One of the problems is that we’re still in the early stages of understanding epigenetics — the combination of genetics and condition which would tell us “that first-line treatment won’t work, but this marginal one for the majority of the population has a 60% chance of working for you”. We don’t know enough to be able to make statements like that, yet. So everyone goes through a rote list of treatments, and when you get down to the 5% level, statistics stop being your friend.

    It took me three tries at high blood pressure medications to find one that both works and doesn’t have debilitating side effects. Oncology is a lot tougher.

  114. 114.

    gene108

    January 17, 2016 at 10:15 pm

    @jl:

    told Sanders to Go Swiss. Why does Sanders hate the Swiss?

    If you go Swiss, how will you be able to destroy the private healthcare insurance industry?

    I remember reading Dkos, when the public option was scrapped – I know not a large or representative sample size – but some folks seemed more interested in destroying private health insurance than achieving universal healthcare.

  115. 115.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 10:16 pm

    GET OFF MY LAWN YOU PUNK KIDS!

  116. 116.

    Bob In Portland

    January 17, 2016 at 10:16 pm

    @TriassicSands: It would be interesting if DWS does change her mind and tries to schedule more debates if Hillary fails in Iowa and New Hampshire. On the other hand, I don’t think her performance tonight has won her any votes, so maybe should try to lower her profile.

  117. 117.

    Felonius Monk

    January 17, 2016 at 10:18 pm

    @MomSense:

    dark chocolate with chili pepper is tasty.

    Dark chocolate with sea salt is also very tasty. In fact, dark chocolate with or without anything is tasty.

  118. 118.

    Ruckus

    January 17, 2016 at 10:18 pm

    @goblue72:
    What has he done to move any of the things he talks about today forward? The record is nice and all but it’s about what a person in congress should be doing, their job. But he’s going for the gold ring as president with no way to get there and for that I stand by my comment.

  119. 119.

    BR

    January 17, 2016 at 10:19 pm

    My take so far: Obama 2016.

  120. 120.

    Keith G

    January 17, 2016 at 10:19 pm

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym:

    The moment the AMA took to the airwaves against single payer, complaining about how much it would hurt your beloved family doctor, single payer would get slaughtered.

    I think that this is true for at least the next decade. I don’t mind Sen. Sanders keeping this ball in play as it keeps up the pressure to keep improving the system.

    And it seems to me that those kids now in their 20s (and those coming after) will have a much different frame of reference for the concept of “family doctor” if they have a reference at all.

  121. 121.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 10:19 pm

    @gene108: Going Swiss is the best way to strengthen PPACA to reduce costs and increase health outcomes, and solve problems that need to be solved to make transition to single payer easier. IMHO. I see it as win-win.

    I admit, if you want to move to single payer asap in next administration, it is not a good way to do that. But I don’t see that as politically feasible anyway, and maybe not economically feasible.

    Approaching single payer by transition through Go Swiss reassures people who think that moving to single payer threatened progress made by PPACA. Again, IMHO.

    Edit: also I saw a news report about draft Sanders’ health plans, and they saw role for supplemental policies, so that would imply a vastly smaller for-profit health insurance industry, rather than extinction. I have no idea whether that is in the plan announced today.

  122. 122.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 10:20 pm

    @Keith G: Fine. I’m sure you’ll win 49 states running on “Tippecanoe and Pull the Plug too” That’s why the plan was so successful in Vermont. Oh wait, it wasn’t

  123. 123.

    Bob In Portland

    January 17, 2016 at 10:20 pm

    @SoupCatcher: My biggest embarrassment: My Mom told me that Chuck Todd is a second or third-cousin.

  124. 124.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    January 17, 2016 at 10:21 pm

    It’s nice that HRC isn’t talking about a NoFly Zone in Syria any more. I hope she’s given up on that bad idea she had.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  125. 125.

    Kay

    January 17, 2016 at 10:22 pm

    I for one am thrilled they’re normalizing relations with Iran. I cannot imagine how that makes anyone less “safe”.

    Also, Martin O’Malley gets on my nerves. I hate his voice for some reason. It sounds coached.

  126. 126.

    gene108

    January 17, 2016 at 10:23 pm

    @jl:

    I think moving towards the Swiss system is a good idea.

    I think, if we had a functioning government, it would be achievable for the next Democratic President.

  127. 127.

    Ruckus

    January 17, 2016 at 10:23 pm

    @goblue72:
    How the fuck do you know who is going to be in the 5% or the 95%?
    How does medical science move forward past leaches and amputation without trying?
    Of course there will be failures and many of them will have high rates. But people don’t learn what works and what doesn’t without trying. Unless you are as all knowing as you think you are.

  128. 128.

    Mandalay

    January 17, 2016 at 10:23 pm

    @Bob In Portland:

    It would be interesting if DWS does change her mind and tries to schedule more debates if Hillary fails in Iowa and New Hampshire.

    If Bernie is going well he may decide to tell DSW to shove those additional debates up her ass.

    It’s not like the Republican debates where Rand Paul doesn’t show up and nobody gives a shit. DWS can’t schedule additional debates unless Bernie agrees, and he surely isn’t in the mood to do her any favors – she has been doing all she can to fix the fight for Clinton so far.

  129. 129.

    Steeplejack

    January 17, 2016 at 10:23 pm

    @Mike J:

    I want a full-on Marxist regime.

  130. 130.

    Corner Stone

    January 17, 2016 at 10:24 pm

    @Suzanne: It’s just nuts. I have to tell all the rest of his family when he is trolling them because he completely inherited my poke her face, “I am going to jack your BS up” deadpan style.
    This is going to be a wild few 10 years or so.
    I completely fucking love that kid.

  131. 131.

    WereBear

    January 17, 2016 at 10:24 pm

    @Keith G: And most of the time, there is a 100% suffering rate.

    I wouldn’t mind such a gamble if there were no downside. But in so many of these cases, the only true winner is the pharmaceutical companies.

  132. 132.

    WarMunchkin

    January 17, 2016 at 10:25 pm

    @BR: Please. Pretty please.

    @Keith G: I don’t think singer payer has a snowball’s chance in Abaddon, but “keeping the ball in play” isn’t a thing. One of the things that lots of commentators try to talk about is how primary elections can influence a party to talk about certain issues, champion them or incorporate them into policy. Great, Sanders brought it up and gets, say, 35% of Dem voters – does anyone seriously think President HRC or Democrats in general are going to consider reintroducing the public option as a market pressure? I think the Dem elite just goes through yet another process of crystallization and resumes the “hippie punching” cycle.

  133. 133.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 10:26 pm

    I’m not fond of Andrea Mitchell.

  134. 134.

    Bob In Portland

    January 17, 2016 at 10:26 pm

    Did Clinton just say, “I shot a man in Libya just to watch him die”?

  135. 135.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 10:26 pm

    Man, Serena Williams is in the middle of a death battle at the Australian Open

  136. 136.

    Bob In Portland

    January 17, 2016 at 10:27 pm

    @Baud: Or her husband.

  137. 137.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 10:27 pm

    @Bob In Portland: I thankfully don’t see him as much on my TV.

  138. 138.

    Corner Stone

    January 17, 2016 at 10:28 pm

    @Bob In Portland: Who hasn’t?

  139. 139.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 10:28 pm

    I feel like I saw this debate already.

    Oh yeah, I did.

  140. 140.

    SoupCatcher

    January 17, 2016 at 10:30 pm

    @Bob In Portland: Ouch. That’s a tough cross to bear.

  141. 141.

    Adam L Silverman

    January 17, 2016 at 10:30 pm

    @dmsilev: Is he or she a furry? Then you’re probably okay.

  142. 142.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    January 17, 2016 at 10:30 pm

    HRC needs to work on answering questions more directly. Re: Andrea’s question about whether Obama made a mistake in not attacking Assad after he used chemical weapons –

    She should have said something like – The President’s goal is to achieve a result that serves America’s interests. The way he did that was via Sec. Kerry’s proposal that Assad give them up peacefully with the help of Russia. The purpose of that red line was not to enable the USA to fire missiles into Damascus, it was to get the weapons out of the hand of Assad’s war machine. And that’s what he did.

    IOW, war is one tool in the political toolbox. It’s not an end in and of itself.

    Something like that would have been a stronger answer, IMHO, rather than her word salad to run out the clock…

    :-/

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  143. 143.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 10:32 pm

    This another crap debate format where the moderators decide which candidate answers which question? They don’t all get a crack at the same question? Why didn’t we hear from Sanders and MOM on Russia question? Or did I miss something?

  144. 144.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 10:33 pm

    @jl: Yep. So awful.

  145. 145.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 10:33 pm

    Foreign policy debate confusing.

    I like the Cruz ‘We win they lose’ plan.

  146. 146.

    dogwood

    January 17, 2016 at 10:34 pm

    I just don’t see how Bernie can win a general election. If a good share of the Obama coalition sits out the primary season, he might have a chance to eke out the nomination. but I don’t think that will serve him well in the general. I don’t see urban minorities standing in line for hours in places like Cleveland to vote for Bernie. His voters love him, but I think his appeal is limited outside of that core group.

  147. 147.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 10:34 pm

    @Baud: I knew you were a time traveler.

  148. 148.

    Felonius Monk

    January 17, 2016 at 10:34 pm

    @Baud:

    I’m not fond of Andrea Mitchell.

    You and about 299 million other people. Andrea exceeded her shelf life long, long ago.

  149. 149.

    MomSense

    January 17, 2016 at 10:34 pm

    @Felonius Monk:

    Oh yes, I am a big fan of dark chocolate with sea salt. Dark chocolate, sea salt, and caramel is divine.

  150. 150.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 10:35 pm

    @David *Rafael* Koch:

    It’s the same crap over and over again.

  151. 151.

    rikyrah

    January 17, 2016 at 10:35 pm

    @gogol’s wife:

    All those people who say Downton is boring. I just have to say, I just watched episode 2 for the THIRD time in the past week, and I wasn’t bored in the slightest. These actors are so skilled, you can watch them endlessly. Just their reaction shots are a master class. Mr. Drewe is brilliant

    Downton almost lost me in Season 4.

    Season 5 and now Season 6 are far better than Season 4. I’m loving this final season.

  152. 152.

    Suzanne

    January 17, 2016 at 10:37 pm

    @Corner Stone: Mine is has just as dry and sarcastic a sense of humor as I do. It alienates some people, but I like it. So oh well.

  153. 153.

    Keith G

    January 17, 2016 at 10:38 pm

    @David *Rafael* Koch: It already happens. You’ve read the stories about folks going out of country to pay a cash discount on a treatment not covered at home.

    And we are not even talking about narrow networks and other types of controlling factors that are limiting treatment choices.

    Health care is rationed under the ACA. As it was before. And it will after.

  154. 154.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 10:39 pm

    @Baud: You not multi-tasking?

    I’m also looking at clips of the Steelers Broncos game, which I missed. I really like the stuff after the Steelers turnover. Watching Thugishburger doing his backwards forward pass right now. That is fun. Think I’ll watch it again.

    Edit: Presidents need to be able to mutli-task. Wait, which primary you running in again? If GOP don’t make no difference, I guess.

  155. 155.

    WereBear

    January 17, 2016 at 10:39 pm

    @dogwood: I was just at a Bernie campaign event, where his supporters were signing up new voters. Mostly people in their 20’s who obviously never voted before.

    If he creates new voters, that changes the equation.

  156. 156.

    Corner Stone

    January 17, 2016 at 10:40 pm

    Andrea Mitchell is such a waste of fucking space.

  157. 157.

    Ruckus

    January 17, 2016 at 10:41 pm

    @WereBear:
    What doesn’t have a downside in medicine? Especially in cancer treatment. Nothing is good and easy, everything takes something away. But not trying has an even higher failure rate than 95%.

  158. 158.

    Adam L Silverman

    January 17, 2016 at 10:42 pm

    @Kay: Check in at 11, I just scheduled a post about this.

  159. 159.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 10:42 pm

    OMG, and another question on Bill Clinton. This was asked in debate 1.

  160. 160.

    Mandalay

    January 17, 2016 at 10:42 pm

    @srv:

    They won’t be coming out of the woodwork for Hillary

    Right. Trump owns the cockroach vote.

  161. 161.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 10:42 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: You have a post on Martin O’Malley.?

  162. 162.

    Kay

    January 17, 2016 at 10:43 pm

    @srv:

    The absent voters, though. Hmmm. I don’t know- they never felt the need to vote before? I get “younger voters” as “new voters” but older non-voters? Has anyone ever relied on them before?

  163. 163.

    chopper

    January 17, 2016 at 10:43 pm

    @the Conster:

    There seems to be some kind of blind spot in Bernie’s supporters that leads them to think that Bernie will be have magic powers as president that Magic Negro Obama couldn’t summon to force passage of single payer, that he hasn’t yet exhibited in the Senate all these years – he’ll be extra bullying when it’s his pulpit or something.

    as president he’ll get single payer passed with a handful of amendments to senate bills.

  164. 164.

    the Conster

    January 17, 2016 at 10:43 pm

    @dogwood:

    Agreed. Democrats need to wrap themselves in PBOs mantle to win, and I don’t see Bernie or his supporters wanting that. Hillary can and will because she’s tactical, but I don’t see her getting the college towns and campuses like PBO did. It’s really troubling.

  165. 165.

    WereBear

    January 17, 2016 at 10:45 pm

    Mr WereBear just said, “And the 16 ton weight just dropped on Mitchell.”

  166. 166.

    Adam L Silverman

    January 17, 2016 at 10:45 pm

    @Baud: Yep and how his compliance with the sanctions regime and the decommissioning of his microwave oven are major diplomatic accomplishments.

  167. 167.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 10:46 pm

    @WereBear: Not heavy enough

  168. 168.

    Keith G

    January 17, 2016 at 10:46 pm

    @WarMunchkin:

    does anyone seriously think President HRC or Democrats in general are going to consider reintroducing the public option as a market pressure?

    As I said in that comment, we probably have at least a decade of working through what we have before the next level of overhaul can even be practically considered, barring any flaw that pops up and causes havoc.

    But that does not mean that folks should not keep the pressure on to move in better directions and find more innovations.

  169. 169.

    Mandalay

    January 17, 2016 at 10:47 pm

    @Baud:

    OMG, and another question on Bill Clinton.

    And Bernie politely and justifiably told Mitchell to fuck off, while Clinton smirked and bobbed her head up and down.

  170. 170.

    muddy

    January 17, 2016 at 10:47 pm

    @Corner Stone: We were just debating what % by volume is original equipment. I said that at least her bones probably hadn’t had work done. My friend would only concede that the skull was real.

  171. 171.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 10:48 pm

    @Baud: I propose that Baud both participate in and moderate his next debate.

    I have new question for Baud, what are you going to do to revive the California paw-paw industry.

    Hack moderators might be good for practice. The Dem nominee will see a lot more during the general. Like the way Sanders told Mitchell to shove it over the stupid Bill C question.

    Did I hear right? Did Mitchell get all offended and hurt feelings that Sanders told media to give it up and to knock it off?

  172. 172.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 10:48 pm

    @Mandalay:

    Yes. That was good. My comment was actually directed at the first Bill Clinton question, when they asked Hillary what role he would have.

  173. 173.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 10:50 pm

    You haven’t learned shit, Lester, because you asked the same questions as the other moderators asked.

  174. 174.

    Corner Stone

    January 17, 2016 at 10:51 pm

    Oh man. This Red Dawn remake is so much better than I could have ever hoped for, so far.
    How did I last so long without seeing it?

  175. 175.

    Felonius Monk

    January 17, 2016 at 10:51 pm

    Tonight’s debate has convinced me that our only hope for a sane future is Baudmentum.

  176. 176.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 10:52 pm

    Oh hell. MOM has a chance to say something new. He starts with important issue that is not discussed enough, interaction of US drug policy and international relations, and steers it toward stentorian BS tripe.

    That is MOM’s big problem in getting traction, I think.

  177. 177.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 10:52 pm

    The big winner of tonight’s debate is ➡️ *spoiler alert*

  178. 178.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 10:54 pm

    Turned sound off for Chuck.

  179. 179.

    the Conster

    January 17, 2016 at 10:54 pm

    Hillary brought up Flint. Good for her. That’s a great Democratic inflection point. Everyone understands this is a huge fucking issue – environmental issues, public v. private funding of public resources, poisoning of an entire generation which is mostly black, role of government, role of GOP in the destruction of the country.

  180. 180.

    Kay

    January 17, 2016 at 10:54 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Thanks. I don’t know much about it. I don’t follow foreign policy as much as I should. It just occurred to me today though that we haven’t had any relationship with that country for a long time. It has to be good to at least start a process of talking to them. I think it’s hopeful and the risk is worth taking. I’m very pleased Obama pushed thru all the carping and fear-mongering.

    Andrea Mitchell said “they’re getting billions of dollars” as if we’re donating it to them.I suppose it will take a long time to change how they talk about this.

  181. 181.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 10:54 pm

    @Felonius Monk:
    @David *Rafael* Koch:

    Haha. If only DWS had scheduled more debates, I would be in the lead right now.

  182. 182.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    January 17, 2016 at 10:54 pm

    @Ruckus: The problem is that it’s an impossibility to cover everything. It can’t be done. So, you need to figure out what things won’t be covered. Please explain what it is that you would refuse to cover in order that cancer patients can receive expensive treatments with a low probability of working.

  183. 183.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 10:55 pm

    @jl: Me too. Instantly.

  184. 184.

    Mandalay

    January 17, 2016 at 10:55 pm

    @Kay:

    Martin O’Malley gets on my nerves. I hate his voice for some reason. It sounds coached.

    He’s as scripted as Marco Rubio, and as fake as Gavin Newsom.

    No matter how much I like what he has to say I can’t shake the idea that he’s a phony politician who is only in it for himself.

  185. 185.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    January 17, 2016 at 10:56 pm

    @jl: Ditto. :-/

    It was Ok, but wasn’t that much different from previous ones.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  186. 186.

    Adam L Silverman

    January 17, 2016 at 10:56 pm

    @Kay: Hopefully what I’ve written won’t let you down.

  187. 187.

    Baud

    January 17, 2016 at 10:56 pm

    I was going to go to bed, but now I’m interested in what Adam has to say about Martin O’Malley.

  188. 188.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 10:56 pm

    @Baud: Baud is a hilariously inept campaigner, has the attention-span of a gnat and the self-discipline of a toddler in mid tantrum. He has no proposals for anything that can be discussed in polite company.

    But, again, in this debate, his silent strength dominated and won the day.

  189. 189.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 10:56 pm

    @Mandalay: Mitchell is obsessed with Clenis. That’s all she has on her mind.

  190. 190.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 10:59 pm

    Can’t Chuck Barris come out and GONG! Andrea Mitchell??

  191. 191.

    Corner Stone

    January 17, 2016 at 11:00 pm

    Hillary Clinton should be wrapping herself in the Obama flag. It makes sense politically and is just good decision making, overall.

  192. 192.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 11:00 pm

    I guess the hack moderators could take the time to at least maybe glance at the transcripts of previous debates and cover topics that have been missed before. Hell, they have interns who can just edit them and deliver list of questions, so these brilliant media minds would not have to waste time reading the answers (what savvy media mind would give a shit about that crap?).

    But I guess that would take ‘work’, and I guess the hacks figure if they just try one more time at some hot button BS, they can get a BS scoop, or a gotcha, or clicks or attention.

  193. 193.

    dogwood

    January 17, 2016 at 11:00 pm

    @the Conster:
    I heard Hillary talk extensively about Flint the other day, and she was passionate about it. She could really distinguish herself against Bernie on issues like this. She isn’t as effective as Obama on those empathy issues, but she is heads and tails above Bernie.

  194. 194.

    Kay

    January 17, 2016 at 11:00 pm

    @Mandalay:

    There’s something rolling and precise about his delivery that sounds like he really worked at it. The pauses are so distinct and exactly the right length. Yuck.

  195. 195.

    WereBear

    January 17, 2016 at 11:01 pm

    @Ruckus: I understand the sentiment, and I can even support it. However, there’s been a lot of bad guessing going on in oncology for the past few decades, and that brings its own false hope and suffering.

    Instead of rewarding an industry for a minuscule success rate (because they get paid whether people live or die) I say let the ACA work as designed; demanding actual results from these treatments instead of something that is half statistical noise.

    It’s time certain segments of oncology admitted they are going down a wrong road. It’s my understanding that new cancer drugs are tested against leukemia cells before they leave the lab.

    Maybe that is why leukemia has a much better cure rate. And maybe that is why so many other cancers… do not.

  196. 196.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    January 17, 2016 at 11:01 pm

    @Mandalay: He’s got long record of doing good things in Maryland. Don’t let your perception of his personality cause you to miss that.

    One of the things that first made me appreciate his skill as a politician is his duel with Bob McDonnell (58:16).

    He does seem over-coached in these debates, but given the short time available and his desire to be better known among voters, it’s not surprising that he seems rushed. He’s at ease and quite natural in the video above.

    He’s a good guy.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  197. 197.

    Kay

    January 17, 2016 at 11:02 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    I agree. She knew it was landing with that audience, too.

  198. 198.

    Mike J

    January 17, 2016 at 11:02 pm

    @dmsilev:

    Clinton is being quite a bit more aggressive tonight.

    Only if you like her. Otherwise you get to write for WaPo and call her a mad bitch.

  199. 199.

    Mike J

    January 17, 2016 at 11:03 pm

    @David *Rafael* Koch:

    Mitchell is obsessed with Clenis. That’s all she has on her mind.

    Once you go first black president, you never back first president.

  200. 200.

    Mary Brown

    January 17, 2016 at 11:04 pm

    @RandomMonster: I hope you’ll reconsider. I think it’s important to know what’s going on. I understand that the debates seem to be a bit predictable and maybe you’ve made up your mind. But, you do gets insights into the candidates and it’s nice to understand your enemies. Plus they’re just kind of entertaining. Make some popcorn and a martini, bet a nerf ball to throw at the repugs and prepare to chuckle at some of the Dem stuff.

  201. 201.

    jl

    January 17, 2016 at 11:04 pm

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: MOM is probably a very good guy. But I think he has this impulse or maniacal coaching, to promise some big issue discussion and end up with very polished but tired and empty campaign tripe oratory. I think that really hurts him going up against HRC and Sanders.

  202. 202.

    muddy

    January 17, 2016 at 11:05 pm

    @Kay: I was laughing because at the end, he clarified that he had 60 seconds, and then his answer was exactly 60 seconds long, he didn’t have to run over to finish a sentence.

    I assume he had a stock 45 second, 60 second, 75 seconds etc at the ready.

  203. 203.

    BR

    January 17, 2016 at 11:05 pm

    I don’t get why none of them pushed back on the notion that the shooting in SC wasn’t terrorism (the question didn’t mention it). That’s homegrown terrorism right there — the oldest kind in the nation’s history.

  204. 204.

    Kay

    January 17, 2016 at 11:06 pm

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    He does seem over-coached in these debates, but given the short time available and his desire to be better known among voters, it’s not surprising that he seems rushed. He’s at ease and quite natural in the video above.
    He’s a good guy.

    I like primaries and I’m always glad when people run but this is the first debate where I thought “no you can’t have more time, Martin- we have to hear the other two”. Governors really don’t do much with foreign policy so they all do that “I protect the Homeland” thing on Foreign Policy Lightening Round which is just annoying.

    HOME-land, he said. I hate that :)

  205. 205.

    dogwood

    January 17, 2016 at 11:06 pm

    @Corner Stone:
    I totally agree. Bernie has the anti-Obama Democrats all sewn up.

  206. 206.

    Mary Brown

    January 17, 2016 at 11:09 pm

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: He comes across to me as a good guy too as well as being smart. I agree that he might be overcoached but he has only seconds to get his thoughts in. It’s too bad he’s running against Hillary and Bernie because we really do need to listen to both of them but I think he might be getting his face and name out there a bit and maybe be a serious candidate down the road. (He’s certainly a more serious candidate even now than any of the Republican candidates.

  207. 207.

    Mike J

    January 17, 2016 at 11:09 pm

    @muddy:

    I assume he had a stock 45 second, 60 second, 75 seconds etc at the ready.

    As a radio guy, I’m always shocked when I hear I professional public speaker who can’t do it. You can tell every decent DJ on earth there’s a 16 second intro and she can nail the post. Which is what we called it in ye olden dayes when you were able to end your last syllable with the end of the intro.

  208. 208.

    JCJ

    January 17, 2016 at 11:10 pm

    @David *Rafael* Koch:

    This might have already been addressed earlier, but Tarceva (erlotinib) can be very effective for lung cancer with an epidermal growth factor receptor (EGFR) mutation but is not nearly as likely to work at all in the absence of a mutation. If an analysis was done and the lesion had an EGFR mutation then the drug should be covered. If the cancer did not have such a mutation (or if the testing was not done) not covering it is not too outrageous.

  209. 209.

    Suzanne

    January 17, 2016 at 11:11 pm

    I am watching this on my DVR, so I’m behind y’all, but I think this debate has been solid so far. Very substantive.

  210. 210.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 11:11 pm

    @dogwood:

    Bernie has the anti-Obama Democrats all sewn up.

    yes, it wasn’t easy, but he’s sewn up both of them.

  211. 211.

    Ruckus

    January 17, 2016 at 11:14 pm

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym:
    The cost of many meds have no relationship to the mfg cost unless they have very limited application. They do have a relationship to the profit of a drug company.
    One of my neighbor companies 4 yrs ago was a bioengineering company that makes drugs for some rare genetic disorders. They have several drugs that are FDA approved for treatments for several rare genetic diseases. And yes the drugs cost money. But they work when nothing else does. Do you pay for the drugs or do you just allow people to suffer and die? Because that’s the question. Now if the drugs haven’t been very successful or are only a placebo, absolutely they shouldn’t be paid for. But if they work even if not for everyone maybe we need to look at cost controls rather than just not paying for them. The drug companies will still make money, just not as much.
    To me it is a question of what insurance is for, to pool our resources for that odd chance that you’ll get some rare disease that’s expensive to cure or mitigate or to make money for insurance companies. I pick option A otherwise fuck it we all might as well just opt out entirely. It makes a better world and one that I want to live in.

  212. 212.

    BR

    January 17, 2016 at 11:15 pm

    I think folks here are wrong that Sanders has only anti-Obama supporters. I wish Obama were running for a third term, but I can’t say that I’m excited about Clinton. (I’m not that excited about Sanders either, but if I had to pick, I think Sanders would get my vote by a whisker.)

  213. 213.

    Mike J

    January 17, 2016 at 11:19 pm

    @BR:

    I think folks here are wrong that Sanders has only anti-Obama supporters.

    I don’t think anybody said that was all he had, but if you’re a Democrat who hates Obama, you’ll hate Clinton too.

  214. 214.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 17, 2016 at 11:20 pm

    @JCJ: I’m not a doctor, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, and I’m here to tell you achieving a 44% reduction in health care costs in part by rationing won’t work politically. Even the old hippies and 1960s commune-ists in Vermont rejected that utopianism.

  215. 215.

    JCJ

    January 17, 2016 at 11:24 pm

    @WereBear:

    One of the reasons Tarceva is tried is because it is generally well tolerated. A rash is a frequent side effect with some patients having some GI toxicity that is usually not too bad. Another frequently used biologic agent against non-small cell lung cancer, crizotinib, is much more likely to cause significant diarrhea. This drug is used for tumors with a different mutation (ALK). According to medscape crizotinib costs $115,000 per year.

  216. 216.

    BR

    January 17, 2016 at 11:25 pm

    @David *Rafael* Koch:

    I’m not entirely sure what you mean by that, but I can say the best health care experience I’ve ever had was when I got sick when I was in London. The hospital was efficient and clean, I got seen right away, they didn’t have tons of complex forms to fill out or insurance nonsense, they got to make the decision whether to keep me in the hospital based on what the doctors thought rather than insurance, etc. I can’t imagine what it’d be like for someone from Britain to wind up sick in New York City.

  217. 217.

    Ruckus

    January 17, 2016 at 11:26 pm

    @WereBear:
    Can’t really argue with any of this.
    However, medicine is a science that has no hard and fast results. I was just given a medication that’s been around for decades to mitigate a disease that it works well for but very, very occasionally has side effects. I’m that one in a million who can not tolerate this very well known drug in the slightest. It isn’t the drugs fault, it’s my system that doesn’t fit the model. But that’s how medications work. Someone up thread stated he’s on his third type of BP me because he couldn’t tolerate the other two. I’m on my second one for the same reason. We will be on BP meds most likely for the rest of our lives. I’m not overweight, I don’t have diabetes, my pipes are clear as can be and I have hypertension. It’s not curable but it is manageable. But as I’m in the VA system, you all are paying for my meds (OK I still work and pay taxes and copay so I am also). Should I not get them because they will, over my lifetime cost a not insignificant amount of money? If the answer is yes then where is the line that we stop at? And for whom do we pay and whom do we prescribe pain and death? Or do we step in when things get so bad that we have to do open heart surgery? It is a paradox, one I’m willing to spend my tax and insurance dollars on the living side.

  218. 218.

    the Conster

    January 17, 2016 at 11:27 pm

    @BR: I think you underestimate the racism that underlies a lot of progressive criticism of Obama. I sure did. They believe that PBO has been woefully inadequate in spite of everything he’s accomplished in the face of complete GOP obstruction. Several of the people interviewed in line at the Trump rally in Burlington said they also like Bernie. Very weird, but just about half the country are racist morons first, thoughtful analytical policy voters last.

  219. 219.

    hilts

    January 17, 2016 at 11:28 pm

    @gogol’s wife:

    Downton Abbey totally kicks ass

    @dogwood:

    and Bernie Sanders is head and shoulders above Hillary Clinton on the majority of issues

  220. 220.

    BR

    January 17, 2016 at 11:31 pm

    @hilts:

    Clinton seems strongest to me when she’s speaking from experience as Sec. of State. Then it’s clear she’s not just saying rehearsed lines but instead is thinking back to what she knows and went through.

  221. 221.

    dogwood

    January 17, 2016 at 11:31 pm

    @hilts:
    Bernie only talks about economics, so nice try. He has nothing of substance to say about the majority of issues.

  222. 222.

    Mike J

    January 17, 2016 at 11:34 pm

    @efgoldman:

    and a guy who eventually ended up as the booth guy for the TV side (now there’s a job with no strain).

    I did it on the weekends. We were AM/FM/TV in one building. I would circulate from talk radio producer/top 40 dj/booth announcer/radio commercial production.

  223. 223.

    Cacti

    January 17, 2016 at 11:36 pm

    Bernie’s health plan breaks his promise that paid family leave would be his only policy that raised taxes on the middle class and poor.

    More to come, I’m sure.

  224. 224.

    Mike J

    January 17, 2016 at 11:38 pm

    @Mike J: Booth announcer for me meant cut a 15 second spot in the room where I was already doing commercials and give a cart to the TV people. Just do it once an hour. Walking down the hall to deliver it literally took longer that cutting the announcements.

  225. 225.

    Suzanne

    January 17, 2016 at 11:40 pm

    I kinda want to elect all of them to something big. This is probably because I watched the GOP debate the other night, and I wanted to throw up. Any of the Dems would be unbelievably better than anyone from the Klown Kar.

  226. 226.

    sparrow

    January 17, 2016 at 11:40 pm

    @goblue72:

    He actually gets things done. The Hilbot attitude around here about “bro-gressives” and Sanders just being all talk is franky getting a bit tiresome and boring.

    Quoted for truth. There are many things to attack Bernie on, but being a bad senator is definitely not one of them.

  227. 227.

    Uncle Cosmo

    January 17, 2016 at 11:41 pm

    @Mandalay:

    No matter how much I like what he has to say I can’t shake the idea that he’s a phony politician who is only in it for himself.

    I’ve known the man personally for nearly 30 years, & you truly could not be more wrong.

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: And you, my friend, could not be more right. In a leftish sort of way of course…

  228. 228.

    Omnes Omnibus

    January 17, 2016 at 11:41 pm

    @efgoldman: The “learned professions” involve at least as much art as science.

  229. 229.

    BR

    January 17, 2016 at 11:42 pm

    @Suzanne:

    That could work for me — Clinton/Sanders or Sanders/Clinton, with O’Malley as Attorney General?

  230. 230.

    Omnes Omnibus

    January 17, 2016 at 11:43 pm

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    And you, my friend, could not be more right. In a leftish sort of way of course…

    I find myself more and more using correct rather than right.

  231. 231.

    Ruckus

    January 17, 2016 at 11:46 pm

    @efgoldman:
    I had a psychotic reaction to the very common med they gave me. Doc said one in a million or rarer reaction. It wasn’t a lot of fun by the way. Yours sounded worse. Much worse.

  232. 232.

    Ruckus

    January 17, 2016 at 11:48 pm

    @efgoldman:
    This is my feeling as well.

  233. 233.

    Suzanne

    January 17, 2016 at 11:49 pm

    @BR: I agree with @efgoldman: Sanders stays in the Senate, maybe leading Appropriations? O’Malley would be a solid AG. I think HRC is most likely to be most effective. I probably agree with Bernie’s political positions the most, but I think HRC is more likely to be effective, and I also don’t think the Overton window is over to the left enough to actually be able to achieve Bernie’s policy goals.

    O’Malley just mentioned “green buildings”, which is of course an issue very close to my heart.

  234. 234.

    Ruckus

    January 17, 2016 at 11:51 pm

    @efgoldman:
    Ouch.

  235. 235.

    BR

    January 17, 2016 at 11:53 pm

    @Suzanne:

    I think you’re probably right. I just worry that Clinton doesn’t have the political instincts to win a tough election — despite the clowns on the other side, the media will pretend as if they’re reasonable candidates no matter who is nominated, and they will start with 46% of the vote. I think she would win without an October surprise, but I’m not sure there’s a lot of good will for her, and voters could be swayed if something big happens before election day. I think Sanders would have a deeper well of support, even though it will take more effort for him to win that support.

  236. 236.

    FlyingToaster

    January 17, 2016 at 11:53 pm

    @srv: Where are those voters?

    I’ll lay you money that they’re in safely red states. If Trump increases the GOP margin in Iowa or Kansas by 8 points, that doesn’t change a damn thing.

    If he can increase the margin in Ohio or Florida, that might be meaningful. Until I see that sea change, well, yawn.

  237. 237.

    WarMunchkin

    January 18, 2016 at 12:03 am

    I dunno, I think HRC ends up winning this easy. And maybe she deserves to in terms of what she’d actually do as President, and that’s ultimately what matters. But I wish that these things weren’t a referendum on the issues of wealth inequality, progressive income taxation, labor, wages, trusts, expansionary fiscal policy, liberal military interventionism, torture and yes, truly universal healthcare. And I see Clinton’s victory as a defeat for the left for some of the issues in that list.

    Seriously, if HRC managed to somehow make a case that she actually gives a damn about these issues that Sanders and Warren and others rightly bring up as problems, I’d be a lot more comfortable as the standard bearer for the left. My memory of her is still dominated by Mark Penn and Terry McAuliffe and DWS and all of these people who have defined Clinton and her circle as firmly center-right (* with the understanding that I’m lumping the Republicans as far-right from the get-go).

  238. 238.

    Satby

    January 18, 2016 at 12:09 am

    @Corner Stone: It’s great isn’t it? The teen years can be tough but they have good enough moments that I import kids to relive them, and suddenly, it seems, they’re adults that you’re happy to have as friends. Hold on to that when he announces for the hundredth time he hates you.

  239. 239.

    rook to queen's 8

    January 18, 2016 at 12:09 am

    @efgoldman: Keeping Sanders in the senate is probably better, but my initial reaction at the end of the debate was “Clinton: president; O’Malley: Veep; Sanders: Sec of Treasury.”

  240. 240.

    Omnes Omnibus

    January 18, 2016 at 12:11 am

    @WarMunchkin: A few years have passed since 2008. One can assume HRC has learned things and changed since then. What she learned and how she changed is important, but presuming she has been preserved in aspic since then is probably a mistake.

  241. 241.

    jl

    January 18, 2016 at 12:12 am

    @FlyingToaster: Also an open question how many Trump voters understand the details of voting, like you have to register to vote, you have to find out where to go to vote, or you need the self-discipline and attention span to spend ten minutes filling out a mail ballot and remember to send it in. Or that they need to do anything at all besides showing for an adrenaline thrill Trump rally.

    Or even that they are seriously considering voting for Tramp, rather than venting.

    Which is all anecdotal, but the stuff you read in interviews from reports on his rallies indicates that those are real questions for a lot of those yahoos.

    It will be very interesting to see how Trumps election and caucus results match his poll numbers. Probably won’t make much difference in GOP primaries where he has double digit leads, but will be a real factor in the general election.

    I have confidence, so far, that turnout among HRC and Sanders supporters will be high.

  242. 242.

    Satby

    January 18, 2016 at 12:13 am

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Damn,now I want an iPhone just so I can ask Siri questions too.
    FYKindle

  243. 243.

    Mike J

    January 18, 2016 at 12:16 am

    @FlyingToaster:

    If Trump increases the GOP margin in Iowa or Knsas by 8 points, that doesn’t change a damn thing.

    Iowa 2012:
    Obama 51.99% Romney 46.18%

  244. 244.

    Omnes Omnibus

    January 18, 2016 at 12:16 am

    @Satby: My iPhone is too old for Siri.

  245. 245.

    Ruckus

    January 18, 2016 at 12:18 am

    @WarMunchkin:
    She isn’t the same person she was in 2008. She’s grown and she has, as far as I can tell, none of the old guard left from then in her campaign. Her time as SoS was not perfect but she laid a lot of the groundwork for what Kerry has accomplished. A point I rarely if ever hear is to think what it took on her part to become SoS after losing the election and working with the person that won over her. That shows to me some dedication to the cause, not someone who is a sore loser. I want someone who gets in and does the work, at the top or not and she’s shown that skill and her personality allowed that. That’s big in my book.

  246. 246.

    Suzanne

    January 18, 2016 at 12:21 am

    @BR: That is an open question for me, as well. But during these debates, I really like her. She comes off as very smart and very tough. (Then she goes and does something that pisses me off.) But I think the more she debates, the better she gets.

  247. 247.

    Omnes Omnibus

    January 18, 2016 at 12:27 am

    @Ruckus:

    I want someone who gets in and does the work, at the top or not and she’s shown that skill and her personality allowed that.

    She isn’t Bill or Barack. Few people have that kind of charisma. People who expect that every election are spoiled. She is a workhorse. She knows her shit because she has worked hard to learn it. No one can argue that she has gotten by on charm or looks (not saying she is unattractive). She is and has been working for this*

    *Please note that my statement that she has been working for the nomination does not in any way equal a statement that she deserves a coronation or that she has earned the nomination yet..

  248. 248.

    Anoniminous

    January 18, 2016 at 12:27 am

    Back from a Democratic Debate watch. We agreed any of the candidates would be 1,000% better than a GOP fucktard and to work to elect the nominee no matter who we support in the primary.

    I’m upbeat, positive, and feeling really good about our chances.

  249. 249.

    Mandalay

    January 18, 2016 at 12:29 am

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    I’ve known the man personally for nearly 30 years, & you truly could not be more wrong.

    Maybe so. I like a lot of what what he has to say, but (like Newsom) his presentation is too slick for my tastes.

    And I really didn’t like his answer once in an interview when asked whether he felt any personal responsibility for the policing situation in Baltimore and he said “We are all responsible”. Given his personal involvement and efforts, that was an awful answer.

  250. 250.

    Anoniminous

    January 18, 2016 at 12:31 am

    @Kay:

    older non-voters? Has anyone ever relied on them before?

    Not one that went on to win the election.

  251. 251.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    January 18, 2016 at 12:42 am

    @WarMunchkin: McAuliffe has been a pretty good governor of Virginia, especially given the non-stop opposition from the Teabaggers.

    People can learn and change. Don’t get stuck in the past.

    :-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  252. 252.

    Ruckus

    January 18, 2016 at 12:46 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    Exactly.
    The job is not the bully pulpit, it is hard work and takes thought and the ability to listen to make it work. I’ll bet as SoS she got to see an even better picture of that than she did as First Lady. And in my mind it shows.
    Is she perfect? Of course not but then neither is the current president, although he’s closer than any other I’ve seen in my lifetime. Do I expect her to be better than President Obama? Not really, that’s a huge pair of shoes to fill and few are capable. But I do expect her to do her best, and I think that will be pretty good. Hope I’m right but it really is a crap shoot that anyone can do the job well, there is nothing that really prepares one to be president, not even VP.

  253. 253.

    Matt McIrvin

    January 18, 2016 at 12:47 am

    @FlyingToaster: Iowa is a blue-leaning swing state. The only time it voted Republican in a post-Reagan presidential election was 2004.

  254. 254.

    Steve in the ATL

    January 18, 2016 at 12:53 am

    @efgoldman:

    Sanders probably will (and should) stay in the Senate, where he’ll do the most good

    Exactly

  255. 255.

    gwangung

    January 18, 2016 at 12:54 am

    But I wish that these things weren’t a referendum on the issues of wealth inequality, progressive income taxation, labor, wages, trusts, expansionary fiscal policy, liberal military interventionism, torture and yes, truly universal healthcare. And I see Clinton’s victory as a defeat for the left for some of the issues in that list.

    If it is, it’s NOT because of Hilary Clinton.

    It’s because there isn’t a solid phalanx of more progressive politicians nestled in office. A Clinton makes some difference in progressive policies, but a solid left leaning legislature makes more of one.

  256. 256.

    Omnes Omnibus

    January 18, 2016 at 12:58 am

    @gwangung: The question is: does one think that HRC would veto any solidly liberal legislation that might come from a hypothetical Congress?

  257. 257.

    Omnes Omnibus

    January 18, 2016 at 1:00 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: And after answering that the next question is: how much solidly liberal legislation do we expect to come from the next Congress?

  258. 258.

    Omnes Omnibus

    January 18, 2016 at 1:10 am

    @efgoldman: Of course.

  259. 259.

    Eric

    January 18, 2016 at 1:17 am

    @the Conster: How many of them could name a single Sanders policy position?

  260. 260.

    mike in dc

    January 18, 2016 at 1:20 am

    I have no idea what “more effective” could possibly mean in the context of at least one half of Congress being in Republican hands. There will be no reprise of 1995-2000, folks. Not a thing will be accomplished through attempting to work with Congress, and that pretty much leaves the next Democrat to occupy the WH in a position extremely similar to the current one for the past 5 years. So I think this “X will be more effective than Y” is either a canard or wishful thinking.

  261. 261.

    Mike J

    January 18, 2016 at 1:24 am

    @mike in dc:

    So I think this “X will be more effective than Y” is either a canard or wishful thinking.

    Actually knowing the levers of power is more important when you don’t have congress on your side.

  262. 262.

    Mike in DC

    January 18, 2016 at 1:26 am

    @Mike J: @Mike J:
    Not if they don’t work anymore.

  263. 263.

    Brachiator

    January 18, 2016 at 1:27 am

    I popped in and out of the debate (thank you, stuffy sinuses), but caught most of it and may go back and read the transcript for some items since this is the last Democratic Party debate.

    I wanted mainly to see Bernie. He seems to want to disavow Obama and the Democratic Party with the promise of a new revolution. This risks the loss of a lot of support, especially if he has Cornell West whispering in his ear.

    I’m also not sure that his promise to tax the middle class, so that everyone, including rich people, can have some Medicare is as popular an idea as he thinks.

    His response to the question about government attempts to install back door access to smartphones, etc, was just lame. Clinton was not much better, but I don’t think she got time to really answer the question.

    But they all had good moments, even O’Malley. And they are still founts of reasonableness compared to the Republicans.

  264. 264.

    Mike J

    January 18, 2016 at 1:33 am

    @Mike in DC: You might want to review everything Obama’s gotten done over the past five years. No, he didn’t turn us into Sweden, but he did a lot without a congress.

  265. 265.

    Mike in DC

    January 18, 2016 at 1:41 am

    @Mike J:
    But the notion that one would be better than the other at working within the current political limits still looks like wishful thinking to me. Both major candidates are likely to be equally effective at doing the things a president can do without legislative consent.
    One thing not discussed is the power the nominee, once elected, has to shape the party leadership going forward. The change in the DNC would certainly be a substantial difference with regard to the approaches of the two major candidates.

  266. 266.

    Brachiator

    January 18, 2016 at 2:06 am

    @Mike in DC:

    One thing not discussed is the power the nominee, once elected, has to shape the party leadership going forward.

    Good point. However, I don’t know that the Democratic Party officials would accept Sanders as the de facto leader of the party.

    The Republicans would have a similar problem if Trump becomes the nominee.

  267. 267.

    Socraticsilence

    January 18, 2016 at 2:38 am

    @dogwood:

    In fairness I don’t really see Hillary preserving the Obama coalition either given her numbers among young voters which have basically stayed static since 2008.

  268. 268.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 18, 2016 at 4:32 am

    @Socraticsilence: it’ll be a modification. She’ll lose some young, but gain some older whites who couldn’t bring themselves to vote for someone black and an increase in middle aged professional women who want to see the glass ceiling broken.

  269. 269.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 18, 2016 at 4:42 am

    @Brachiator:

    He seems to want to disavow Obama

    Seems? That’s his official strategy.

    “If Bernie’s going to beat Clinton it’s bc people don’t want a 3rd Obama term.” — Sanders strategist Tad Devine

  270. 270.

    Mike J

    January 18, 2016 at 4:50 am

    @David *Rafael* Koch: Tad Devine? I seem to recall that name associated with what many good liberals call the worst campaign of all time, the one so bad it made them vote for Ralph Nader.

  271. 271.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 18, 2016 at 4:56 am

    @Mike in DC:

    The change in the DNC would certainly be a substantial difference with regard to the approaches of the two major candidates.

    Like what? What would he do?

    Sanders isn’t a Democrat. Even though he’s running for the nomination, he still refuses to call himself a Democrat or join the party like fellow vermonters Howard Dean and Pat Leahy. Think about it – these past 9 months have you ever heard him talk about the Democrats or being a Democrat in any of his speeches? His speech to Liberty University – not once did he utter the word “Democrat”. His speech 2 weeks ago on wall street, not once did he use the word. His speech announcing his candidacy, 3,400 words and only once did he used the word but only to generically describe campaign finance.

    There is no indication he would take control of a party he refuses to join. The gadfly that he is, he probably would want to be the first president who didn’t belong to any party.

  272. 272.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    January 18, 2016 at 5:39 am

    @Mike J: It gets worse. While Devine is his bumbling strategist, his campaign manager has no national experience and currently runs a comic book store. To boot, he actually looks like “Comic Book Guy“

  273. 273.

    frosty

    January 18, 2016 at 8:17 am

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): the answer to who came first the chicken or the egg is obviously the rooster…..

  274. 274.

    mclaren

    January 18, 2016 at 4:04 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Andrea Mitchell is such a waste of fucking space.

    And, coincidentally, wife of Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the Federal Reserve.

    I’m sure their marriage had nothing at all to do with all that positive news coverage of Greenspan’s grossly incompetent mishandling of the U.S. economy, resulting in the titanic global financial crash of 2009.

    Isn’t Washington D.C. wonderful? It’s as though Jabba the Hut were secretly married to Princess Leia…

  275. 275.

    mclaren

    January 18, 2016 at 4:05 pm

    @David *Rafael* Koch:

    Hillary Clinton will not win the Democratic nomination, so it doesn’t matter.

  276. 276.

    mclaren

    January 18, 2016 at 4:07 pm

    @Mike in DC:

    One thing not discussed is the power the nominee, once elected, has to shape the party leadership going forward.

    Bernie Sanders has already taken control of the Democratic party. All Democratic politicians, to the extent that they are viable as candidates, now compete with Sanders to out-Sanders him in progressive policies. This is also why Hillary Clinton has no chance at winning the Democratic nomination. She’s still following the tired bankrupt old triangulation policies of the 90s, and the voters have moved on. They want real change, not triangulation.

  277. 277.

    mclaren

    January 18, 2016 at 4:10 pm

    @efgoldman:

    Sanders probably will (and should) stay in the Senate, where he’ll do the most good, especially if it flips.

    Not possible. A serving president cannot simultaneously hold a senate seat.

  278. 278.

    J R in WV

    January 18, 2016 at 8:07 pm

    @efgoldman:

    We administered Lasix to a very large work horse many years ago. Like a waterfall ~!!!

    I forget now 35 years later why it was prescribed, but it was a very experienced elderly vet who was an ex-US Army horse doctor, so I’m sure it was the best solution.

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