Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

These guys can go mcfuck themselves.

This is a big f—–g deal.

Consistently wrong since 2002

Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.

The math demands it!

An almost top 10,000 blog!

False Scribes! False Scribes!

This really is a full service blog.

The house always wins.

No one could have predicted…

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

So it was an October Surprise A Day, like an Advent calendar but for crime.

A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals

I don’t care how fun he is after a few whiskies. fuck that guy.

The revolution will be supervised.

Sitting here in limbo waiting for the dice to roll

It’s the corruption, stupid.

We can agree to disagree, but i’m right.

Hot air and ill-informed banter

Shocking, but not surprising

I’d like to think you all would remain faithful to me if i ever tried to have some of you killed.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

You are here: Home / Past Elections / Election 2016 / Democratic Debate Open Thread

Democratic Debate Open Thread

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We were debating whether to watch the Democratic debate or Downton Abbey. I was for Downton. The kiddo was for the debate. And the mister nodded off.

I deferred to the kid on the grounds that this is the first election she’ll be eligible to vote in, so she’s excited, and I don’t want to discourage her. Lord knows there will be plenty of time for cynicism and boredom later.

Open thread!

Reader Interactions

278Comments

  3. 3.

    gogol's wife

    All those people who say Downton is boring. I just have to say, I just watched episode 2 for the THIRD time in the past week, and I wasn’t bored in the slightest. These actors are so skilled, you can watch them endlessly. Just their reaction shots are a master class. Mr. Drewe is brilliant!

  4. 4.

    Eric NNY

    Cynicism can wait. Engage while you have the opportunity.

  5. 5.

    Corner Stone

    I deferred to the kid on the grounds that this is the first election she’ll be eligible to vote in

    I am so not even close to being able to understand what that feeling is like, as a parent.

  7. 7.

    muddy

    Oh, it’s only on regular NBC. I was watching them come out on MSNBC and suddenly Tweety came on. So there’s apparently a delay between that and what is now on NBC. Probably for all the swearing.

  8. 8.

    TriassicSands

    If Hillary Clinton loses both Iowa and New Hampshire, will Wasserman Schultz suddenly discover the need for more debates?

  13. 13.

    the Conster

    Posted from previous thread, but ODS suffering jealous unhinged fool Cornel West is repping for Bernie in South Carolina. Who’s next – Allen West? Are there that many angry white brogressives?

  14. 14.

    ? Martin

    @Baud:

    Friedman finds that a typical family of four with wages of $50,000 and an employer health-plan with $4,955 in annual premiums and a $1,318 deductible would pay only $466 through the new 2.2 percent tax, and save $5,807, or 12 percent of income, on net. Friedman also finds that an employer paying $12,591 toward an employee’s health plan would pay $3,100 in the new 6.2 percent payroll tax, and save $9,491.

    Hmm. There is not that much bloat in the current healthcare system to account for 90% savings for taxpayers and 75% savings for employers. Let’s see what Richard says about this, but I’m skeptical the savings are that distinct.

    I can see how a Medicare A for all could clearly save money. I’m a bit less convinced of the benefits of Medicare B for all.

  15. 15.

    Corner Stone

    @Betty Cracker: Oh, he’s 11 and he’s ready to go to the walls, citizens.
    We just recently discussed Flint, MI. He asks his Republican grandparents (my ex IL) really deadpan questions. It’s amazeballs.

    ETA, but WTS I am so not ready. He’s huge and stinky and defiant and a real person. When did that all happen?

  16. 16.

    TriassicSands

    @Baud:

    I haven’t read Sanders’ plan yet, but I do hope it isn’t really Medicare-For-All, because Medicare is at best mediocre insurance. Only with MediGap supplementary plans do the elderly get good to excellent health insurance. Add to that the inferior Medicare Part D prescription drug plan with its ridiculous “donut hole” and Medicare-For-All should be referred to as Mediocre-Care-For-All. Is that what we’re really looking for?

  29. 29.

    SoupCatcher

    Kind of sounded like something was going on off camera during O’Malley’s gun control answer.

  30. 30.

    TriassicSands

    They just asked all three candidates what their first three priorities would be after taking office. Somehow all three described their agendas and none of them told me who they hate and want to screw. None of them suggested bombing Iran back to the Stone Age. How is that possible? After all, doesn’t American economic prosperity depend on our constantly using and replenishing our high explosive arsenal? It makes no sense at all to allow bombs to become obsolete because of age, when they could be exploding somewhere in the world and striking fear into the hearts and minds of non-combatants everywhere.

  33. 33.

    Socraticsilence

    @the Conster:

    Nicely reductive with the “angry white brogressives” it’s like going “man look at that Hillary crowd, who knew there were that man investment bankers and angry menopausal feminists” .

  34. 34.

    Iowa Old Lady

    I finally figured out why I’m not responding to Sanders’s big vision, even though I agree with most of it. The Obama years taught me two things: a president can do only so much, and the Republicans will break the country (again) given half a chance. So my first priority is to put a Democrat in the WH. Beyond that I want suggestions for changes a president can actually achieve under current circumstances.

  37. 37.

    muddy

    @the Conster: Is he actually shit talking Obama while stumping for Bernie? Or is it that he was shit talking Obama the other times and so now no one who likes Obama should talk to him? I’m not trying to have an argument and am not on a side, as I said I’m no fan of Cornell West.

    But I guess some people are, and I just assumed he’d go out to convince those people that he likes Bernie better than Hillary. I can’t think shit talking Obama would be helpful in those circumstances. I don’t think Bernie would be down for it either. But as I said, I don’t know what West has said in SC recently.

    My original point was just that Cornel West can support whomever he wants for president. Again, is there a reason that he is not allowed to support Bernie? Or Baud, or anyone?

  38. 38.

    WarMunchkin

    @Iowa Old Lady: I’ve been doing the same internal pacing myself. From Obama, I know Sanders’ policies are a pipe dream; from Obama v. Clinton 2008, I know Clinton surrounds herself with… I don’t know, Clintonland? I’m having real trouble with this primary.

  40. 40.

    the Conster

    @Socraticsilence:

    There is a lot of mistrust in the twitterverse – well deserved – of Bernie supporters because of the way they disparage PBOs accomplishments and what priorities should be. A LOT of anger and mistrust. Cornel West is totemic of the kind of PBO shit talking they like – Trumplike, you might say.

  42. 42.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    I hope you people are happy that you taught me to fuck with Siri.
    Answers to :which came first, the chicken or the egg:

    Well you can set an egg timer, but you cant set a chicken timer. I don’t know if that helps.

    In a race, the chicken, definitely, Unless it’s downhill.

    Neil DeGrasse Tyson told me they both spontaneously combusted into existence at exactly the same femtosecond.

  43. 43.

    Trentrunner

    Cornel West is a grifter, a clown, and fraud. I wouldn’t listen to him on anything ever.

  45. 45.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    Not much new in the questions so far. I’m not sure that more debates would illuminate the race very well…

    I did like that Holt directly asked MOM what his responsibility was for the system in Baltimore that lead to the death of Freddy Gray. I thought MOM’s answer was good, as far as it went. Of course, with the limited time there was much he didn’t say.

    I wonder how the health care questions will go…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  47. 47.

    CaseyL

    I’m not watching the debate, because I’m not in the mood to worry about what the moderators will do, so I’m relying on y’all to follow what’s going on.

  49. 49.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    @muddy: he’s allowed to support anyone he wants, but Sanders makes a giant mistake embracing him and actually campaigning with him, side-by-side, as he is box office poison after saying President Obama is a white “republican in blackface” and “the first niggerized president”. Putting your arm around someone who calls President Obama a “nigger” will get you a one way ticket to loserville.

  51. 51.

    Iowa Old Lady

    @WarMunchkin: Yeah, it doesn’t seem like it should be so hard because either of them would be better than any of the Republicans, so why worry? But when I look at Trump, Cruz, Rubio, et al, I’m scared at the possibilities.

  52. 52.

    muddy

    @David *Rafael* Koch: It was not Medicare for all or even similar. The reasons it didn’t work out were not about the blueness of the voters, a major part of it was due to the software company doing a shitty job. It also had nothing to do with Bernie, who works in the federal government not in the state.

    It’s fine not to like Bernie, I don’t know that I want him for president either. You don’t have to make stuff up.

  53. 53.

    dmsilev

    Q: “Vermont decided that single-payer would be too expensive. Can you comment?”
    Sanders: “Campaign finance sucks”.

    Oy.

  55. 55.

    jl

    Sanders needs to quit dismissing questions about why single payer policy was cancelled in Vermont. Leaves impression that he is hiding something (higher costs?).

    Actually, pretty much every study showed that single payer would have saved money in VT, and the savings shrank as VT guv made political decisions to change it in order to postpone detailed fiscal planning.

    It’s not rocket science, Bernie.

  56. 56.

    gene108

    What’s wrong with the private insurance industry? They are not driving the cost of healthcare.

    They do shannanigans to maximize profits, but that goes for every business.

  57. 57.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    @muddy: SOFTWARE OLIGARCHY !

    WE HAVE TO STOP SKYNET BEFORE IT STOPS US!

    ENOUGH IS ENOUGH SKYNET – YOU CAN’T HAVE IT ALL!

  58. 58.

    Ruckus

    @Iowa Old Lady:
    This is my position exactly. Sanders could be more effective where he is but other than nice speeches what has he done in congress? He’s been there for a while, what bills has he sponsored that would bring about any of the changes he advocates for, even if they would be DOA? I know that a lot of the same could be said about Clinton, but her track record and what she advocates for seems to be more possible. She’s not trying to reinvent the wheel, just keep it turning. And in a system with as many veto points as our federal elected offices have keeping that wheel rolling forward is far more important than any bully pulpit ideas.

  60. 60.

    MomSense

    I like what Bernie says in terms of values but I think he falls short in terms of specifics. If I ruled the world I would love to have single payer health care but I think Clinton is correct when she talks about not having the votes for it. We fought really hard to get the ACA passed and we are still in the defending stage.

  63. 63.

    muddy

    @jl: He should. I have to admit I stopped listening to the debate because they kept raising their voices like it was a rousing mini campaign speech rather than just answering questions at a podium.

    I guess they want to show how passionate they are. At the point I muted the tv, Martin O’Malley had not yet shouted but the other 2 did. I plan to FF and see if he shouts too. If he restrains himself he may have gained a supporter. ;-)

  64. 64.

    sparrow

    @dmsilev: not good. I’m probably, almost certainly voting for Bernie in the primaries, but his healthcare stance is one thing that has me kind of “meh”. But, I probably should read the plan. People are amped up enough about healthcare change right now, going out and saying “hey that new plan we just spent so much time agonizing over and getting used to? We’re going to do something completely new that the republicans will hate 10,000x more! Won’t that be fun!”… is not a good campaign issue right now.

  66. 66.

    jl

    @? Martin: I think we’ll have to read Friedman’s analysis to understand those numbers. The topline estimate of total costs as percent of national GDP at the beginning of the vox post indicates Sanders’ plan is aiming for a 44 percent cut.

    He wants to get down to Netherlands level of health care spending as percent of GDP. Seems pretty ambitious to me.

  68. 68.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    MOM is much more polished this debate than I’ve seen him in previous ones. He seems to be getting his legs – but it is very late in the pre-vote horse race.

    I wonder if he’ll end up being “the comeback kid” this cycle, somehow. It would be nice for him to get a decent bump and more attention from the press.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  69. 69.

    Ruckus

    @MomSense:
    My point in a nut shell. Remember when various people said if President Obama had just made better speeches (the Bully Pulpit!) we’d have single payer. I had to explain to friends that it just doesn’t work that way. Congress critters have power, maybe not as much individually as the president but they do have it. Sometimes they abuse it and sometimes they are worthless sacks of shit but they still have that power. If they work together at all they can stop lots of good ideas on how to make this a better place to live. For proof, as if anyone here needs it, just look at our current congress.

  71. 71.

    jl

    @muddy: I tuned in late, and started to listen just after the health care stuff started. I’ll catch up on who got yelly later.

    At least I haven’t heard any stupid GOP type stunts yet.

  76. 76.

    goblue72

    @Ruckus: Sanders has been quite successful in pushing through legislation while in the legislative minority utilizing the amendment process – far more so than Clinton did while she was in the Senate.

    His record.

    He actually gets things done. The Hilbot attitude around here about “bro-gressives” and Sanders just being all talk is franky getting a bit tiresome and boring.

  77. 77.

    Keith G

    @gene108:

    They do shannanigans to maximize profits, but that goes for every business.

    If Walmart pulls shenanigans, I can live with it. If the company that I depend on to help me stay alive pulls shenanigans, I am fucked.

    And already, the Big Evil Insurance Corp that I switched to has bent me over a table, but I do have 30 days to appeal.

    So there’s that.

  78. 78.

    dmsilev

    @Baud:

    Reminder: Only Baudcare covers pets.

    Technically, Baudcare only covers pets.

    Details.

    If I have a pet name for my SO, does that count?

  79. 79.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    @jl: to achieve those cuts, that would require direct or indirect price controls and rationing, ie – denying expensive procedures that have low success rates, otherwise known as the Oregon Health Plan death panels.

    During 2008 and 2009, the Oregon Health Plan stirred up controversy when enforcing 1994 guidelines[19] to only cover comfort care, and not to cover cancer treatment such as chemotherapy, surgery and radiotherapy for patients with less than a 5% chance of survival over five years.[20]

    Springfield resident Barbara Wagner said her oncologist prescribed the chemotherapy drug Tarceva for her lung cancer, but that Oregon Health Plan officials sent her a letter declining coverage for the drug, and informing her that they will only pay for palliative care and physician-assisted dying. She appealed the denial twice, but lost both times.

  80. 80.

    jl

    @dmsilev: Baud: bad for the cheese trade, bad for paw-paws, bad for Bitcoin. Baud: bad for America!

    If Baud cannot address the concerns of the average working stiff, why should anyone vote for him?
    Baud has gotten off pretty easy in the debate so far.

  81. 81.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @jl: A major part of the problem is that, when most of the public hears the sentence, “My plan will require higher taxes, but it will cost you less on net because of the money you won’t have to spend on health insurance premiums,” they assume that the comma after ‘taxes’ is a period and they ignore the rest of the sentence. No one has ever figures out how to explain the concept of ‘on net’ to the public, and I have zero confidence that President Sanders would be the guy who would figure out how to solve that problem.

  83. 83.

    MomSense

    @Ruckus:

    We only got the ACA passed with incredible grass roots organizing in all 50 states. The states who had Senators on the Senate Finance Committee did extra work and had extra help in the form of Organizing for America and labor unions. It was an intense effort. It’s a total pipe dream to think we can pass single payer any time soon.

    Also too, right now I just want Clinton to squish O’Malley like a bug. I really wanted to like him but I’ve come to the conclusion that he is in this for the grift.

  85. 85.

    Bob In Portland

    @dmsilev: And it doesn’t become her. She lies and smears. It’s pretty obvious. I find myself yelling “liar” at the TV.

  87. 87.

    the Conster

    The irony is that the ACA was really the outermost limit of what could actually be passed – remember, without any Republican votes, and not all Dems voted for it. Medicare wasn’t born full blown and immutable. Single payer is not going to happen this next election cycle, or the one after or the one after that. There seems to be some kind of blind spot in Bernie’s supporters that leads them to think that Bernie will be have magic powers as president that Magic Negro Obama couldn’t summon to force passage of single payer, that he hasn’t yet exhibited in the Senate all these years – he’ll be extra bullying when it’s his pulpit or something. Not a fan of Hillary either. Go Martin O’Malley!

  88. 88.

    WarMunchkin

    @sparrow: I don’t remember whether it was this blog or some other, but I remember reading that this discussion, while a bit pie-in-the-sky, is doing a good job of pushing the Dems from being complacent about the ACA. Because seriously, people do have problems with it, and it sucks that we’re forced to defend it with all of our might against the onslaught.

    I can’t say I’m too happy with Sanders from this debate, but whenever Clinton says something that isn’t straight out of right-wing framing, I can’t help but think, “c’mon, you don’t really believe that”. And the weird part about politics is that personality pulls a crowd’s ideology. Clinton pulls normal Democrats rightward, and that’s a bit scary after the “compassionate conservatism” stuff that W. peddled.

    I don’t know, maybe I’ll just vote for baud

  89. 89.

    jl

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym: Well, I am a Sanders mega-donor and I wrote the old coot on the best way to do it. Probably sitting in a trash can someplace.

    As a mega-donor, I’ll sign him up for a hot rolls and ham of the month club and tell him to quit.

    I told Sanders to Go Swiss. Why does Sanders hate the Swiss?

    As for finance, I want Berilly Cinters to win. I want strongest parts of both their financial regulation plans.

  90. 90.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    @goblue72: it means you’re condemning 5% of the curable to an unnecessary death.

    you guys aren’t too well thought out, are you.

  93. 93.

    Baud

    @dmsilev:

    If I have a pet name for my SO, does that count?

    Ok, but if the health care fraud inspectors investigate, one of you needs to wear the cat costume.

  95. 95.

    Mandalay

    @Trentrunner:

    Cornel West is a grifter, a clown, and fraud. I wouldn’t listen to him on anything ever.

    Mostly true, but he has been a rare voice for (accurately) pointing out that the Democrats have been taking the black vote for granted for years, and have given back very little in return for their support.

    That important message is worth listening to, even if you don’t like the messenger.

  97. 97.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @goblue72:

    Yes and? I don’t see anything wrong with denying payment on an expensive treatment with a 5% success rate.

    I agree, but overwhelmingly, the American public does not. The Cadillac tax just got squashed, and it’s a tiny version of what Sanders’ plan would need to do in order to meet his cost projections. The moment the AMA took to the airwaves against single payer, complaining about how much it would hurt your beloved family doctor, single payer would get slaughtered. A fight between doctors and Congress over who Americans trust more is a fight Congress would lose in a rout.

  100. 100.

    SoupCatcher

    So glad I didn’t have “I’m the only one on this stage…” for my drinking quote.

    Mix it up a bit, Martin.

  104. 104.

    jl

    @Steeplejack: Candidates, especially Sanders, doing a good job of telling her to stuff it so far. Good practice for any corporate hack moderators in final two debates, when I assume more people will be watching.

    Edit: who is the deep voiced plug Lester Holt? He’s not much better than Mitchell, maybe just as bad.

    Edit2: Who is he anyway?

  105. 105.

    gene108

    @the Conster:

    Single payer is not going to happen this next election cycle, or the one after or the one after that. There seems to be some kind of blind spot in Bernie’s supporters that leads them to think that Bernie will be have magic powers as president

    There are liberals, who want to tear things down just as badly as right-wingers do. They are not interested in what is possible. They want us to become a Scandinavian style economy yesterday.

  106. 106.

    Suzanne

    @Corner Stone: Spawn the Elder just turned twelve, and all of a sudden she’s amazing. I mean, she’s always been a great kid—smart, funny, engaging. But like, she LEVELED UP as a person and it’s awesome.

  107. 107.

    Keith G

    @David *Rafael* Koch: And if the cost of curing* that 5% means that many more times that amount of others (more often than not poor) might not get easier access rather standard medical care, what then?

    *As often as not, those last-chance 5% cures actually do not cure but only extend the fight against a mortal condition just months longer.

  110. 110.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    The NBC intermission music on YouTube is annoying – it’s 1-2 bars just looping. Boodaboodabooda boo. Boodaboodabooda boo. Boodaboodabooda boo. Boodaboodabooda boo.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  111. 111.

    SoupCatcher

    Harumph. Wish I would’ve known they were going to have “halftime commentary” from Chuck Todd.

    Do not like.

  113. 113.

    FlyingToaster

    @David *Rafael* Koch: One of the problems is that we’re still in the early stages of understanding epigenetics — the combination of genetics and condition which would tell us “that first-line treatment won’t work, but this marginal one for the majority of the population has a 60% chance of working for you”. We don’t know enough to be able to make statements like that, yet. So everyone goes through a rote list of treatments, and when you get down to the 5% level, statistics stop being your friend.

    It took me three tries at high blood pressure medications to find one that both works and doesn’t have debilitating side effects. Oncology is a lot tougher.

  114. 114.

    gene108

    @jl:

    told Sanders to Go Swiss. Why does Sanders hate the Swiss?

    If you go Swiss, how will you be able to destroy the private healthcare insurance industry?

    I remember reading Dkos, when the public option was scrapped – I know not a large or representative sample size – but some folks seemed more interested in destroying private health insurance than achieving universal healthcare.

  116. 116.

    Bob In Portland

    @TriassicSands: It would be interesting if DWS does change her mind and tries to schedule more debates if Hillary fails in Iowa and New Hampshire. On the other hand, I don’t think her performance tonight has won her any votes, so maybe should try to lower her profile.

  117. 117.

    Felonius Monk

    @MomSense:

    dark chocolate with chili pepper is tasty.

    Dark chocolate with sea salt is also very tasty. In fact, dark chocolate with or without anything is tasty.

  118. 118.

    Ruckus

    @goblue72:
    What has he done to move any of the things he talks about today forward? The record is nice and all but it’s about what a person in congress should be doing, their job. But he’s going for the gold ring as president with no way to get there and for that I stand by my comment.

  120. 120.

    Keith G

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym:

    The moment the AMA took to the airwaves against single payer, complaining about how much it would hurt your beloved family doctor, single payer would get slaughtered.

    I think that this is true for at least the next decade. I don’t mind Sen. Sanders keeping this ball in play as it keeps up the pressure to keep improving the system.

    And it seems to me that those kids now in their 20s (and those coming after) will have a much different frame of reference for the concept of “family doctor” if they have a reference at all.

  121. 121.

    jl

    @gene108: Going Swiss is the best way to strengthen PPACA to reduce costs and increase health outcomes, and solve problems that need to be solved to make transition to single payer easier. IMHO. I see it as win-win.

    I admit, if you want to move to single payer asap in next administration, it is not a good way to do that. But I don’t see that as politically feasible anyway, and maybe not economically feasible.

    Approaching single payer by transition through Go Swiss reassures people who think that moving to single payer threatened progress made by PPACA. Again, IMHO.

    Edit: also I saw a news report about draft Sanders’ health plans, and they saw role for supplemental policies, so that would imply a vastly smaller for-profit health insurance industry, rather than extinction. I have no idea whether that is in the plan announced today.

  122. 122.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    @Keith G: Fine. I’m sure you’ll win 49 states running on “Tippecanoe and Pull the Plug too” That’s why the plan was so successful in Vermont. Oh wait, it wasn’t

  124. 124.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    It’s nice that HRC isn’t talking about a NoFly Zone in Syria any more. I hope she’s given up on that bad idea she had.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  125. 125.

    Kay

    I for one am thrilled they’re normalizing relations with Iran. I cannot imagine how that makes anyone less “safe”.

    Also, Martin O’Malley gets on my nerves. I hate his voice for some reason. It sounds coached.

  126. 126.

    gene108

    @jl:

    I think moving towards the Swiss system is a good idea.

    I think, if we had a functioning government, it would be achievable for the next Democratic President.

  127. 127.

    Ruckus

    @goblue72:
    How the fuck do you know who is going to be in the 5% or the 95%?
    How does medical science move forward past leaches and amputation without trying?
    Of course there will be failures and many of them will have high rates. But people don’t learn what works and what doesn’t without trying. Unless you are as all knowing as you think you are.

  128. 128.

    Mandalay

    @Bob In Portland:

    It would be interesting if DWS does change her mind and tries to schedule more debates if Hillary fails in Iowa and New Hampshire.

    If Bernie is going well he may decide to tell DSW to shove those additional debates up her ass.

    It’s not like the Republican debates where Rand Paul doesn’t show up and nobody gives a shit. DWS can’t schedule additional debates unless Bernie agrees, and he surely isn’t in the mood to do her any favors – she has been doing all she can to fix the fight for Clinton so far.

  130. 130.

    Corner Stone

    @Suzanne: It’s just nuts. I have to tell all the rest of his family when he is trolling them because he completely inherited my poke her face, “I am going to jack your BS up” deadpan style.
    This is going to be a wild few 10 years or so.
    I completely fucking love that kid.

  131. 131.

    WereBear

    @Keith G: And most of the time, there is a 100% suffering rate.

    I wouldn’t mind such a gamble if there were no downside. But in so many of these cases, the only true winner is the pharmaceutical companies.

  132. 132.

    WarMunchkin

    @BR: Please. Pretty please.

    @Keith G: I don’t think singer payer has a snowball’s chance in Abaddon, but “keeping the ball in play” isn’t a thing. One of the things that lots of commentators try to talk about is how primary elections can influence a party to talk about certain issues, champion them or incorporate them into policy. Great, Sanders brought it up and gets, say, 35% of Dem voters – does anyone seriously think President HRC or Democrats in general are going to consider reintroducing the public option as a market pressure? I think the Dem elite just goes through yet another process of crystallization and resumes the “hippie punching” cycle.

  142. 142.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    HRC needs to work on answering questions more directly. Re: Andrea’s question about whether Obama made a mistake in not attacking Assad after he used chemical weapons –

    She should have said something like – The President’s goal is to achieve a result that serves America’s interests. The way he did that was via Sec. Kerry’s proposal that Assad give them up peacefully with the help of Russia. The purpose of that red line was not to enable the USA to fire missiles into Damascus, it was to get the weapons out of the hand of Assad’s war machine. And that’s what he did.

    IOW, war is one tool in the political toolbox. It’s not an end in and of itself.

    Something like that would have been a stronger answer, IMHO, rather than her word salad to run out the clock…

    :-/

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  143. 143.

    jl

    This another crap debate format where the moderators decide which candidate answers which question? They don’t all get a crack at the same question? Why didn’t we hear from Sanders and MOM on Russia question? Or did I miss something?

  146. 146.

    dogwood

    I just don’t see how Bernie can win a general election. If a good share of the Obama coalition sits out the primary season, he might have a chance to eke out the nomination. but I don’t think that will serve him well in the general. I don’t see urban minorities standing in line for hours in places like Cleveland to vote for Bernie. His voters love him, but I think his appeal is limited outside of that core group.

  148. 148.

    Felonius Monk

    @Baud:

    I’m not fond of Andrea Mitchell.

    You and about 299 million other people. Andrea exceeded her shelf life long, long ago.

  151. 151.

    rikyrah

    @gogol’s wife:

    All those people who say Downton is boring. I just have to say, I just watched episode 2 for the THIRD time in the past week, and I wasn’t bored in the slightest. These actors are so skilled, you can watch them endlessly. Just their reaction shots are a master class. Mr. Drewe is brilliant

    Downton almost lost me in Season 4.

    Season 5 and now Season 6 are far better than Season 4. I’m loving this final season.

  153. 153.

    Keith G

    @David *Rafael* Koch: It already happens. You’ve read the stories about folks going out of country to pay a cash discount on a treatment not covered at home.

    And we are not even talking about narrow networks and other types of controlling factors that are limiting treatment choices.

    Health care is rationed under the ACA. As it was before. And it will after.

  154. 154.

    jl

    @Baud: You not multi-tasking?

    I’m also looking at clips of the Steelers Broncos game, which I missed. I really like the stuff after the Steelers turnover. Watching Thugishburger doing his backwards forward pass right now. That is fun. Think I’ll watch it again.

    Edit: Presidents need to be able to mutli-task. Wait, which primary you running in again? If GOP don’t make no difference, I guess.

  155. 155.

    WereBear

    @dogwood: I was just at a Bernie campaign event, where his supporters were signing up new voters. Mostly people in their 20’s who obviously never voted before.

    If he creates new voters, that changes the equation.

  157. 157.

    Ruckus

    @WereBear:
    What doesn’t have a downside in medicine? Especially in cancer treatment. Nothing is good and easy, everything takes something away. But not trying has an even higher failure rate than 95%.

  162. 162.

    Kay

    @srv:

    The absent voters, though. Hmmm. I don’t know- they never felt the need to vote before? I get “younger voters” as “new voters” but older non-voters? Has anyone ever relied on them before?

  163. 163.

    chopper

    @the Conster:

    There seems to be some kind of blind spot in Bernie’s supporters that leads them to think that Bernie will be have magic powers as president that Magic Negro Obama couldn’t summon to force passage of single payer, that he hasn’t yet exhibited in the Senate all these years – he’ll be extra bullying when it’s his pulpit or something.

    as president he’ll get single payer passed with a handful of amendments to senate bills.

  164. 164.

    the Conster

    @dogwood:

    Agreed. Democrats need to wrap themselves in PBOs mantle to win, and I don’t see Bernie or his supporters wanting that. Hillary can and will because she’s tactical, but I don’t see her getting the college towns and campuses like PBO did. It’s really troubling.

  166. 166.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Baud: Yep and how his compliance with the sanctions regime and the decommissioning of his microwave oven are major diplomatic accomplishments.

  168. 168.

    Keith G

    @WarMunchkin:

    does anyone seriously think President HRC or Democrats in general are going to consider reintroducing the public option as a market pressure?

    As I said in that comment, we probably have at least a decade of working through what we have before the next level of overhaul can even be practically considered, barring any flaw that pops up and causes havoc.

    But that does not mean that folks should not keep the pressure on to move in better directions and find more innovations.

  169. 169.

    Mandalay

    @Baud:

    OMG, and another question on Bill Clinton.

    And Bernie politely and justifiably told Mitchell to fuck off, while Clinton smirked and bobbed her head up and down.

  170. 170.

    muddy

    @Corner Stone: We were just debating what % by volume is original equipment. I said that at least her bones probably hadn’t had work done. My friend would only concede that the skull was real.

  171. 171.

    jl

    @Baud: I propose that Baud both participate in and moderate his next debate.

    I have new question for Baud, what are you going to do to revive the California paw-paw industry.

    Hack moderators might be good for practice. The Dem nominee will see a lot more during the general. Like the way Sanders told Mitchell to shove it over the stupid Bill C question.

    Did I hear right? Did Mitchell get all offended and hurt feelings that Sanders told media to give it up and to knock it off?

  172. 172.

    Baud

    @Mandalay:

    Yes. That was good. My comment was actually directed at the first Bill Clinton question, when they asked Hillary what role he would have.

  173. 173.

    Baud

    You haven’t learned shit, Lester, because you asked the same questions as the other moderators asked.

  174. 174.

    Corner Stone

    Oh man. This Red Dawn remake is so much better than I could have ever hoped for, so far.
    How did I last so long without seeing it?

  176. 176.

    jl

    Oh hell. MOM has a chance to say something new. He starts with important issue that is not discussed enough, interaction of US drug policy and international relations, and steers it toward stentorian BS tripe.

    That is MOM’s big problem in getting traction, I think.

  179. 179.

    the Conster

    Hillary brought up Flint. Good for her. That’s a great Democratic inflection point. Everyone understands this is a huge fucking issue – environmental issues, public v. private funding of public resources, poisoning of an entire generation which is mostly black, role of government, role of GOP in the destruction of the country.

  180. 180.

    Kay

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Thanks. I don’t know much about it. I don’t follow foreign policy as much as I should. It just occurred to me today though that we haven’t had any relationship with that country for a long time. It has to be good to at least start a process of talking to them. I think it’s hopeful and the risk is worth taking. I’m very pleased Obama pushed thru all the carping and fear-mongering.

    Andrea Mitchell said “they’re getting billions of dollars” as if we’re donating it to them.I suppose it will take a long time to change how they talk about this.

  182. 182.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @Ruckus: The problem is that it’s an impossibility to cover everything. It can’t be done. So, you need to figure out what things won’t be covered. Please explain what it is that you would refuse to cover in order that cancer patients can receive expensive treatments with a low probability of working.

  184. 184.

    Mandalay

    @Kay:

    Martin O’Malley gets on my nerves. I hate his voice for some reason. It sounds coached.

    He’s as scripted as Marco Rubio, and as fake as Gavin Newsom.

    No matter how much I like what he has to say I can’t shake the idea that he’s a phony politician who is only in it for himself.

  185. 185.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @jl: Ditto. :-/

    It was Ok, but wasn’t that much different from previous ones.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  187. 187.

    Baud

    I was going to go to bed, but now I’m interested in what Adam has to say about Martin O’Malley.

  188. 188.

    jl

    @Baud: Baud is a hilariously inept campaigner, has the attention-span of a gnat and the self-discipline of a toddler in mid tantrum. He has no proposals for anything that can be discussed in polite company.

    But, again, in this debate, his silent strength dominated and won the day.

  191. 191.

    Corner Stone

    Hillary Clinton should be wrapping herself in the Obama flag. It makes sense politically and is just good decision making, overall.

  192. 192.

    jl

    I guess the hack moderators could take the time to at least maybe glance at the transcripts of previous debates and cover topics that have been missed before. Hell, they have interns who can just edit them and deliver list of questions, so these brilliant media minds would not have to waste time reading the answers (what savvy media mind would give a shit about that crap?).

    But I guess that would take ‘work’, and I guess the hacks figure if they just try one more time at some hot button BS, they can get a BS scoop, or a gotcha, or clicks or attention.

  193. 193.

    dogwood

    @the Conster:
    I heard Hillary talk extensively about Flint the other day, and she was passionate about it. She could really distinguish herself against Bernie on issues like this. She isn’t as effective as Obama on those empathy issues, but she is heads and tails above Bernie.

  194. 194.

    Kay

    @Mandalay:

    There’s something rolling and precise about his delivery that sounds like he really worked at it. The pauses are so distinct and exactly the right length. Yuck.

  195. 195.

    WereBear

    @Ruckus: I understand the sentiment, and I can even support it. However, there’s been a lot of bad guessing going on in oncology for the past few decades, and that brings its own false hope and suffering.

    Instead of rewarding an industry for a minuscule success rate (because they get paid whether people live or die) I say let the ACA work as designed; demanding actual results from these treatments instead of something that is half statistical noise.

    It’s time certain segments of oncology admitted they are going down a wrong road. It’s my understanding that new cancer drugs are tested against leukemia cells before they leave the lab.

    Maybe that is why leukemia has a much better cure rate. And maybe that is why so many other cancers… do not.

  196. 196.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Mandalay: He’s got long record of doing good things in Maryland. Don’t let your perception of his personality cause you to miss that.

    One of the things that first made me appreciate his skill as a politician is his duel with Bob McDonnell (58:16).

    He does seem over-coached in these debates, but given the short time available and his desire to be better known among voters, it’s not surprising that he seems rushed. He’s at ease and quite natural in the video above.

    He’s a good guy.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  198. 198.

    Mike J

    @dmsilev:

    Clinton is being quite a bit more aggressive tonight.

    Only if you like her. Otherwise you get to write for WaPo and call her a mad bitch.

  200. 200.

    Mary Brown

    @RandomMonster: I hope you’ll reconsider. I think it’s important to know what’s going on. I understand that the debates seem to be a bit predictable and maybe you’ve made up your mind. But, you do gets insights into the candidates and it’s nice to understand your enemies. Plus they’re just kind of entertaining. Make some popcorn and a martini, bet a nerf ball to throw at the repugs and prepare to chuckle at some of the Dem stuff.

  201. 201.

    jl

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: MOM is probably a very good guy. But I think he has this impulse or maniacal coaching, to promise some big issue discussion and end up with very polished but tired and empty campaign tripe oratory. I think that really hurts him going up against HRC and Sanders.

  202. 202.

    muddy

    @Kay: I was laughing because at the end, he clarified that he had 60 seconds, and then his answer was exactly 60 seconds long, he didn’t have to run over to finish a sentence.

    I assume he had a stock 45 second, 60 second, 75 seconds etc at the ready.

  203. 203.

    BR

    I don’t get why none of them pushed back on the notion that the shooting in SC wasn’t terrorism (the question didn’t mention it). That’s homegrown terrorism right there — the oldest kind in the nation’s history.

  204. 204.

    Kay

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    He does seem over-coached in these debates, but given the short time available and his desire to be better known among voters, it’s not surprising that he seems rushed. He’s at ease and quite natural in the video above.
    He’s a good guy.

    I like primaries and I’m always glad when people run but this is the first debate where I thought “no you can’t have more time, Martin- we have to hear the other two”. Governors really don’t do much with foreign policy so they all do that “I protect the Homeland” thing on Foreign Policy Lightening Round which is just annoying.

    HOME-land, he said. I hate that :)

  206. 206.

    Mary Brown

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: He comes across to me as a good guy too as well as being smart. I agree that he might be overcoached but he has only seconds to get his thoughts in. It’s too bad he’s running against Hillary and Bernie because we really do need to listen to both of them but I think he might be getting his face and name out there a bit and maybe be a serious candidate down the road. (He’s certainly a more serious candidate even now than any of the Republican candidates.

  207. 207.

    Mike J

    @muddy:

    I assume he had a stock 45 second, 60 second, 75 seconds etc at the ready.

    As a radio guy, I’m always shocked when I hear I professional public speaker who can’t do it. You can tell every decent DJ on earth there’s a 16 second intro and she can nail the post. Which is what we called it in ye olden dayes when you were able to end your last syllable with the end of the intro.

  208. 208.

    JCJ

    @David *Rafael* Koch:

    This might have already been addressed earlier, but Tarceva (erlotinib) can be very effective for lung cancer with an epidermal growth factor receptor (EGFR) mutation but is not nearly as likely to work at all in the absence of a mutation. If an analysis was done and the lesion had an EGFR mutation then the drug should be covered. If the cancer did not have such a mutation (or if the testing was not done) not covering it is not too outrageous.

  209. 209.

    Suzanne

    I am watching this on my DVR, so I’m behind y’all, but I think this debate has been solid so far. Very substantive.

  211. 211.

    Ruckus

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym:
    The cost of many meds have no relationship to the mfg cost unless they have very limited application. They do have a relationship to the profit of a drug company.
    One of my neighbor companies 4 yrs ago was a bioengineering company that makes drugs for some rare genetic disorders. They have several drugs that are FDA approved for treatments for several rare genetic diseases. And yes the drugs cost money. But they work when nothing else does. Do you pay for the drugs or do you just allow people to suffer and die? Because that’s the question. Now if the drugs haven’t been very successful or are only a placebo, absolutely they shouldn’t be paid for. But if they work even if not for everyone maybe we need to look at cost controls rather than just not paying for them. The drug companies will still make money, just not as much.
    To me it is a question of what insurance is for, to pool our resources for that odd chance that you’ll get some rare disease that’s expensive to cure or mitigate or to make money for insurance companies. I pick option A otherwise fuck it we all might as well just opt out entirely. It makes a better world and one that I want to live in.

  212. 212.

    BR

    I think folks here are wrong that Sanders has only anti-Obama supporters. I wish Obama were running for a third term, but I can’t say that I’m excited about Clinton. (I’m not that excited about Sanders either, but if I had to pick, I think Sanders would get my vote by a whisker.)

  213. 213.

    Mike J

    @BR:

    I think folks here are wrong that Sanders has only anti-Obama supporters.

    I don’t think anybody said that was all he had, but if you’re a Democrat who hates Obama, you’ll hate Clinton too.

  214. 214.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    @JCJ: I’m not a doctor, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, and I’m here to tell you achieving a 44% reduction in health care costs in part by rationing won’t work politically. Even the old hippies and 1960s commune-ists in Vermont rejected that utopianism.

  215. 215.

    JCJ

    @WereBear:

    One of the reasons Tarceva is tried is because it is generally well tolerated. A rash is a frequent side effect with some patients having some GI toxicity that is usually not too bad. Another frequently used biologic agent against non-small cell lung cancer, crizotinib, is much more likely to cause significant diarrhea. This drug is used for tumors with a different mutation (ALK). According to medscape crizotinib costs $115,000 per year.

  216. 216.

    BR

    @David *Rafael* Koch:

    I’m not entirely sure what you mean by that, but I can say the best health care experience I’ve ever had was when I got sick when I was in London. The hospital was efficient and clean, I got seen right away, they didn’t have tons of complex forms to fill out or insurance nonsense, they got to make the decision whether to keep me in the hospital based on what the doctors thought rather than insurance, etc. I can’t imagine what it’d be like for someone from Britain to wind up sick in New York City.

  217. 217.

    Ruckus

    @WereBear:
    Can’t really argue with any of this.
    However, medicine is a science that has no hard and fast results. I was just given a medication that’s been around for decades to mitigate a disease that it works well for but very, very occasionally has side effects. I’m that one in a million who can not tolerate this very well known drug in the slightest. It isn’t the drugs fault, it’s my system that doesn’t fit the model. But that’s how medications work. Someone up thread stated he’s on his third type of BP me because he couldn’t tolerate the other two. I’m on my second one for the same reason. We will be on BP meds most likely for the rest of our lives. I’m not overweight, I don’t have diabetes, my pipes are clear as can be and I have hypertension. It’s not curable but it is manageable. But as I’m in the VA system, you all are paying for my meds (OK I still work and pay taxes and copay so I am also). Should I not get them because they will, over my lifetime cost a not insignificant amount of money? If the answer is yes then where is the line that we stop at? And for whom do we pay and whom do we prescribe pain and death? Or do we step in when things get so bad that we have to do open heart surgery? It is a paradox, one I’m willing to spend my tax and insurance dollars on the living side.

  218. 218.

    the Conster

    @BR: I think you underestimate the racism that underlies a lot of progressive criticism of Obama. I sure did. They believe that PBO has been woefully inadequate in spite of everything he’s accomplished in the face of complete GOP obstruction. Several of the people interviewed in line at the Trump rally in Burlington said they also like Bernie. Very weird, but just about half the country are racist morons first, thoughtful analytical policy voters last.

  220. 220.

    BR

    @hilts:

    Clinton seems strongest to me when she’s speaking from experience as Sec. of State. Then it’s clear she’s not just saying rehearsed lines but instead is thinking back to what she knows and went through.

  222. 222.

    Mike J

    @efgoldman:

    and a guy who eventually ended up as the booth guy for the TV side (now there’s a job with no strain).

    I did it on the weekends. We were AM/FM/TV in one building. I would circulate from talk radio producer/top 40 dj/booth announcer/radio commercial production.

  223. 223.

    Cacti

    Bernie’s health plan breaks his promise that paid family leave would be his only policy that raised taxes on the middle class and poor.

    More to come, I’m sure.

  224. 224.

    Mike J

    @Mike J: Booth announcer for me meant cut a 15 second spot in the room where I was already doing commercials and give a cart to the TV people. Just do it once an hour. Walking down the hall to deliver it literally took longer that cutting the announcements.

  225. 225.

    Suzanne

    I kinda want to elect all of them to something big. This is probably because I watched the GOP debate the other night, and I wanted to throw up. Any of the Dems would be unbelievably better than anyone from the Klown Kar.

  226. 226.

    sparrow

    @goblue72:

    He actually gets things done. The Hilbot attitude around here about “bro-gressives” and Sanders just being all talk is franky getting a bit tiresome and boring.

    Quoted for truth. There are many things to attack Bernie on, but being a bad senator is definitely not one of them.

  227. 227.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Mandalay:

    No matter how much I like what he has to say I can’t shake the idea that he’s a phony politician who is only in it for himself.

    I’ve known the man personally for nearly 30 years, & you truly could not be more wrong.

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: And you, my friend, could not be more right. In a leftish sort of way of course…

  230. 230.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    And you, my friend, could not be more right. In a leftish sort of way of course…

    I find myself more and more using correct rather than right.

  231. 231.

    Ruckus

    @efgoldman:
    I had a psychotic reaction to the very common med they gave me. Doc said one in a million or rarer reaction. It wasn’t a lot of fun by the way. Yours sounded worse. Much worse.

  233. 233.

    Suzanne

    @BR: I agree with @efgoldman: Sanders stays in the Senate, maybe leading Appropriations? O’Malley would be a solid AG. I think HRC is most likely to be most effective. I probably agree with Bernie’s political positions the most, but I think HRC is more likely to be effective, and I also don’t think the Overton window is over to the left enough to actually be able to achieve Bernie’s policy goals.

    O’Malley just mentioned “green buildings”, which is of course an issue very close to my heart.

  235. 235.

    BR

    @Suzanne:

    I think you’re probably right. I just worry that Clinton doesn’t have the political instincts to win a tough election — despite the clowns on the other side, the media will pretend as if they’re reasonable candidates no matter who is nominated, and they will start with 46% of the vote. I think she would win without an October surprise, but I’m not sure there’s a lot of good will for her, and voters could be swayed if something big happens before election day. I think Sanders would have a deeper well of support, even though it will take more effort for him to win that support.

  236. 236.

    FlyingToaster

    @srv: Where are those voters?

    I’ll lay you money that they’re in safely red states. If Trump increases the GOP margin in Iowa or Kansas by 8 points, that doesn’t change a damn thing.

    If he can increase the margin in Ohio or Florida, that might be meaningful. Until I see that sea change, well, yawn.

  237. 237.

    WarMunchkin

    I dunno, I think HRC ends up winning this easy. And maybe she deserves to in terms of what she’d actually do as President, and that’s ultimately what matters. But I wish that these things weren’t a referendum on the issues of wealth inequality, progressive income taxation, labor, wages, trusts, expansionary fiscal policy, liberal military interventionism, torture and yes, truly universal healthcare. And I see Clinton’s victory as a defeat for the left for some of the issues in that list.

    Seriously, if HRC managed to somehow make a case that she actually gives a damn about these issues that Sanders and Warren and others rightly bring up as problems, I’d be a lot more comfortable as the standard bearer for the left. My memory of her is still dominated by Mark Penn and Terry McAuliffe and DWS and all of these people who have defined Clinton and her circle as firmly center-right (* with the understanding that I’m lumping the Republicans as far-right from the get-go).

  238. 238.

    Satby

    @Corner Stone: It’s great isn’t it? The teen years can be tough but they have good enough moments that I import kids to relive them, and suddenly, it seems, they’re adults that you’re happy to have as friends. Hold on to that when he announces for the hundredth time he hates you.

  239. 239.

    rook to queen's 8

    @efgoldman: Keeping Sanders in the senate is probably better, but my initial reaction at the end of the debate was “Clinton: president; O’Malley: Veep; Sanders: Sec of Treasury.”

  240. 240.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @WarMunchkin: A few years have passed since 2008. One can assume HRC has learned things and changed since then. What she learned and how she changed is important, but presuming she has been preserved in aspic since then is probably a mistake.

  241. 241.

    jl

    @FlyingToaster: Also an open question how many Trump voters understand the details of voting, like you have to register to vote, you have to find out where to go to vote, or you need the self-discipline and attention span to spend ten minutes filling out a mail ballot and remember to send it in. Or that they need to do anything at all besides showing for an adrenaline thrill Trump rally.

    Or even that they are seriously considering voting for Tramp, rather than venting.

    Which is all anecdotal, but the stuff you read in interviews from reports on his rallies indicates that those are real questions for a lot of those yahoos.

    It will be very interesting to see how Trumps election and caucus results match his poll numbers. Probably won’t make much difference in GOP primaries where he has double digit leads, but will be a real factor in the general election.

    I have confidence, so far, that turnout among HRC and Sanders supporters will be high.

  245. 245.

    Ruckus

    @WarMunchkin:
    She isn’t the same person she was in 2008. She’s grown and she has, as far as I can tell, none of the old guard left from then in her campaign. Her time as SoS was not perfect but she laid a lot of the groundwork for what Kerry has accomplished. A point I rarely if ever hear is to think what it took on her part to become SoS after losing the election and working with the person that won over her. That shows to me some dedication to the cause, not someone who is a sore loser. I want someone who gets in and does the work, at the top or not and she’s shown that skill and her personality allowed that. That’s big in my book.

  246. 246.

    Suzanne

    @BR: That is an open question for me, as well. But during these debates, I really like her. She comes off as very smart and very tough. (Then she goes and does something that pisses me off.) But I think the more she debates, the better she gets.

  247. 247.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Ruckus:

    I want someone who gets in and does the work, at the top or not and she’s shown that skill and her personality allowed that.

    She isn’t Bill or Barack. Few people have that kind of charisma. People who expect that every election are spoiled. She is a workhorse. She knows her shit because she has worked hard to learn it. No one can argue that she has gotten by on charm or looks (not saying she is unattractive). She is and has been working for this*

    *Please note that my statement that she has been working for the nomination does not in any way equal a statement that she deserves a coronation or that she has earned the nomination yet..

  248. 248.

    Anoniminous

    Back from a Democratic Debate watch. We agreed any of the candidates would be 1,000% better than a GOP fucktard and to work to elect the nominee no matter who we support in the primary.

    I’m upbeat, positive, and feeling really good about our chances.

  249. 249.

    Mandalay

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    I’ve known the man personally for nearly 30 years, & you truly could not be more wrong.

    Maybe so. I like a lot of what what he has to say, but (like Newsom) his presentation is too slick for my tastes.

    And I really didn’t like his answer once in an interview when asked whether he felt any personal responsibility for the policing situation in Baltimore and he said “We are all responsible”. Given his personal involvement and efforts, that was an awful answer.

  251. 251.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @WarMunchkin: McAuliffe has been a pretty good governor of Virginia, especially given the non-stop opposition from the Teabaggers.

    People can learn and change. Don’t get stuck in the past.

    :-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  252. 252.

    Ruckus

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    Exactly.
    The job is not the bully pulpit, it is hard work and takes thought and the ability to listen to make it work. I’ll bet as SoS she got to see an even better picture of that than she did as First Lady. And in my mind it shows.
    Is she perfect? Of course not but then neither is the current president, although he’s closer than any other I’ve seen in my lifetime. Do I expect her to be better than President Obama? Not really, that’s a huge pair of shoes to fill and few are capable. But I do expect her to do her best, and I think that will be pretty good. Hope I’m right but it really is a crap shoot that anyone can do the job well, there is nothing that really prepares one to be president, not even VP.

  255. 255.

    gwangung

    But I wish that these things weren’t a referendum on the issues of wealth inequality, progressive income taxation, labor, wages, trusts, expansionary fiscal policy, liberal military interventionism, torture and yes, truly universal healthcare. And I see Clinton’s victory as a defeat for the left for some of the issues in that list.

    If it is, it’s NOT because of Hilary Clinton.

    It’s because there isn’t a solid phalanx of more progressive politicians nestled in office. A Clinton makes some difference in progressive policies, but a solid left leaning legislature makes more of one.

  256. 256.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @gwangung: The question is: does one think that HRC would veto any solidly liberal legislation that might come from a hypothetical Congress?

  260. 260.

    mike in dc

    I have no idea what “more effective” could possibly mean in the context of at least one half of Congress being in Republican hands. There will be no reprise of 1995-2000, folks. Not a thing will be accomplished through attempting to work with Congress, and that pretty much leaves the next Democrat to occupy the WH in a position extremely similar to the current one for the past 5 years. So I think this “X will be more effective than Y” is either a canard or wishful thinking.

  261. 261.

    Mike J

    @mike in dc:

    So I think this “X will be more effective than Y” is either a canard or wishful thinking.

    Actually knowing the levers of power is more important when you don’t have congress on your side.

  263. 263.

    Brachiator

    I popped in and out of the debate (thank you, stuffy sinuses), but caught most of it and may go back and read the transcript for some items since this is the last Democratic Party debate.

    I wanted mainly to see Bernie. He seems to want to disavow Obama and the Democratic Party with the promise of a new revolution. This risks the loss of a lot of support, especially if he has Cornell West whispering in his ear.

    I’m also not sure that his promise to tax the middle class, so that everyone, including rich people, can have some Medicare is as popular an idea as he thinks.

    His response to the question about government attempts to install back door access to smartphones, etc, was just lame. Clinton was not much better, but I don’t think she got time to really answer the question.

    But they all had good moments, even O’Malley. And they are still founts of reasonableness compared to the Republicans.

  264. 264.

    Mike J

    @Mike in DC: You might want to review everything Obama’s gotten done over the past five years. No, he didn’t turn us into Sweden, but he did a lot without a congress.

  265. 265.

    Mike in DC

    @Mike J:
    But the notion that one would be better than the other at working within the current political limits still looks like wishful thinking to me. Both major candidates are likely to be equally effective at doing the things a president can do without legislative consent.
    One thing not discussed is the power the nominee, once elected, has to shape the party leadership going forward. The change in the DNC would certainly be a substantial difference with regard to the approaches of the two major candidates.

  266. 266.

    Brachiator

    @Mike in DC:

    One thing not discussed is the power the nominee, once elected, has to shape the party leadership going forward.

    Good point. However, I don’t know that the Democratic Party officials would accept Sanders as the de facto leader of the party.

    The Republicans would have a similar problem if Trump becomes the nominee.

  267. 267.

    Socraticsilence

    @dogwood:

    In fairness I don’t really see Hillary preserving the Obama coalition either given her numbers among young voters which have basically stayed static since 2008.

  268. 268.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    @Socraticsilence: it’ll be a modification. She’ll lose some young, but gain some older whites who couldn’t bring themselves to vote for someone black and an increase in middle aged professional women who want to see the glass ceiling broken.

  271. 271.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    @Mike in DC:

    The change in the DNC would certainly be a substantial difference with regard to the approaches of the two major candidates.

    Like what? What would he do?

    Sanders isn’t a Democrat. Even though he’s running for the nomination, he still refuses to call himself a Democrat or join the party like fellow vermonters Howard Dean and Pat Leahy. Think about it – these past 9 months have you ever heard him talk about the Democrats or being a Democrat in any of his speeches? His speech to Liberty University – not once did he utter the word “Democrat”. His speech 2 weeks ago on wall street, not once did he use the word. His speech announcing his candidacy, 3,400 words and only once did he used the word but only to generically describe campaign finance.

    There is no indication he would take control of a party he refuses to join. The gadfly that he is, he probably would want to be the first president who didn’t belong to any party.

  274. 274.

    mclaren

    @Corner Stone:

    Andrea Mitchell is such a waste of fucking space.

    And, coincidentally, wife of Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the Federal Reserve.

    I’m sure their marriage had nothing at all to do with all that positive news coverage of Greenspan’s grossly incompetent mishandling of the U.S. economy, resulting in the titanic global financial crash of 2009.

    Isn’t Washington D.C. wonderful? It’s as though Jabba the Hut were secretly married to Princess Leia…

  276. 276.

    mclaren

    @Mike in DC:

    One thing not discussed is the power the nominee, once elected, has to shape the party leadership going forward.

    Bernie Sanders has already taken control of the Democratic party. All Democratic politicians, to the extent that they are viable as candidates, now compete with Sanders to out-Sanders him in progressive policies. This is also why Hillary Clinton has no chance at winning the Democratic nomination. She’s still following the tired bankrupt old triangulation policies of the 90s, and the voters have moved on. They want real change, not triangulation.

  277. 277.

    mclaren

    @efgoldman:

    Sanders probably will (and should) stay in the Senate, where he’ll do the most good, especially if it flips.

    Not possible. A serving president cannot simultaneously hold a senate seat.

  278. 278.

    J R in WV

    @efgoldman:

    We administered Lasix to a very large work horse many years ago. Like a waterfall ~!!!

    I forget now 35 years later why it was prescribed, but it was a very experienced elderly vet who was an ex-US Army horse doctor, so I’m sure it was the best solution.

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