Spare Me, DWS

Hillary’s DNC embed, Debbie Wasserman Schultz:

Do you notice a difference between young women and women our age in their excitement about Hillary Clinton? Is there a generational divide? Here’s what I see: a complacency among the generation of young women whose entire lives have been lived after Roe v. Wade was decided.

You’re one of a dwindling number of progressive politicians who oppose legalization of even the medical use of marijuana. Where does that come from? I don’t oppose the use of medical marijuana. I just don’t think we should legalize more mind-altering substances if we want to make it less likely that people travel down the path toward using drugs. We have had a resurgence of drug use instead of a decline. There is a huge heroin epidemic.

I don’t talk about my daughter much, but this is the first Presidential election where she can vote.  She and her politically engaged female friends are supporting Bernie Sanders.  In the words of one of her friends:  “what’s the difference between Hillary and a Republican?” Granted, that’s an overstatement, and it’s also a small sample, but I think it’s possible to imagine that there are a few other young women whose lack of excitement about Hillary could possibly be due to engagement with the political process, not complacency. And, yes, they know what Roe v Wade is, and why it’s important. Could she be any more condescending to the young voters that Democrats need to turn out in big numbers?

Hillary is a wee bit to the left of DWS’ retrograde position on marijuana.  Even so, I can see why Sanders is more appealing to young women (and men) on that issue.  DWS 70’s-era “marijuana is a gateway to heroin” position, coupled with a grudging acceptance of medical marijuana, might play well with her senior citizen constituents, but it’s a sad joke to a generation that recognizes, correctly, that alcohol is a more dangerous drug than pot. 71% of them support legalization.

Another couple of bricks in the wall from the political numbskull responsible for the limited number of Democratic debates, and the positioning of those debates at times where they won’t be watched.

(via Kevin Drum)






148 replies
  1. 1
    dedc79 says:

    In the words of one of her friends: “what’s the difference between Hillary and a Republican?” Granted, that’s an overstatement

    I’m not a big fan of Hillary (I may well vote for Sanders in the primary but will vote for HiIllary in the general with zero hesitation), but anyone who asks this is not “politically engaged.”

    Also, I don’t think an anecdote about your daughter’s friends is much of a rebuttal to a claim about a whole generation. That’s not to say I agree with DWS’ claim, but we know there’s a lot of complacency among young people – we need look no further than the rate at which they vote in non-presidential elections.

  2. 2
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @dedc79: You put it nicer than I was going to.

  3. 3
    kindness says:

    Yea, that quote to one of the kids friends

    What’s the difference between Hillary and a Republican?

    I’m underwhelmed. If these kids think there is almost no difference they haven’t been paying attention. Now, I prefer Bernie but expect to fully support Hillary when she is nominated.

  4. 4
    Corner Stone says:

    She and her politically engaged female friends are supporting Bernie Sanders. In the words of one of her friends: “what’s the difference between Hillary and a Republican?” Granted, that’s an overstatement

    “Granted, that’s a fucking moronic statement”

  5. 5
    Corner Stone says:

    @dedc79:

    That’s not to say I agree with DWS’ claim, but we know there’s a lot of complacency among young people

    Anyone who doesn’t know the difference between Hillary and any Republican clearly doesn’t give a shit about choice for women. I guess you could generously call it complacency.

  6. 6
    goblue72 says:

    @dedc79: Young people always vote less in off-year elections. This is not shocking news. And when DWS was young Gen X-er, her generation didn’t vote in off-year election either. If anything, I find Millenials more politically engaged than DWS’s generation.

    As with much, DWS is full of it.

  7. 7
    mistermix says:

    @dedc79: These kids will vote for Hillary next Fall if she’s the nominee. They are not excited by her positions, and they do know where she and Bernie stand on those issues.

  8. 8
    goblue72 says:

    I do not see anything objectionable in what those young women are saying. First off, young people are a lot more idealistic and tend to see things as more black and white – and they tend to be highly attuned & sensitive to hypocrisy – whether real or perceived. They are young, not stupid. I’m not going to blame them for being young.

    Second, from their perspective – on the spectrum between the Republican party, Hillary Clinton and the socialist (Bernie) – if you are a Lefty young person, on that spectrum, Hillary could very well be seen as closer to the GOP than Bernie – particularly if your frame is focused on issues relevant to young people – such as who do they feel is most likely to stand up to Wall Street and the stacked deck that young people face?

    Also, there is nothing in that statement which says “if Hillary is the nominee, I’m not voting”. It just says in the choice between Hillary and Bernie, Bernie is closer to their values.

    I realized the average age of BJ commenters is 102, but occasionally folks need to take off the bifocals.

  9. 9
    Mike J says:

    Every policy disagreement with anybody who isn’t on Bernie’s payroll is evidence of THE BIGGEST BETRAYAL EVER and proof that THE GAME IS RIGGED !ELEVENTY!

    Just yesterday berners were whining that Obama’s speech was a sneaky way to point out how wrong Bernie is on gun control.

  10. 10
    Betty Cracker says:

    Our kids must be about the same age — this will be the first election my daughter can vote in as well (she’ll miss the primary but be eligible to vote in the general). She’s a huge Hillary supporter and occasionally hassles her dad and me for being Bernie-curious. She often complains about what assholes the Bernie supporters are on social media, so it’s not just us old blog fogies who are experiencing that phenomenon.

  11. 11
    Cacti says:

    In the words of one of her friends: “what’s the difference between Hillary and a Republican?”

    Life is hard.

    It’s even harder when you’re stupid.

  12. 12
    dogwood says:

    Have I got this right? DWS says many young women are not as engaged because they they don’t know what could really be on the line having lived in post Roe v Wade America. The young daughter says there’s no difference between Hillary and a republican. And this proves DWS is out of touch.
    Hate to break it to you Mistermix, but your daughter isn’t very engaged if she can say that.

  13. 13
    mistermix says:

    @Mike J: I’ve heard nothing of this kind of inside baseball stuff from my kid’s friends.

    This is what’s happening: They are young and liberal. Bernie is more liberal than Hillary. They draw the conclusion that Bernie best represents their positions. Seems like a rational calculation to me.

    The 90’s is ancient history to these kids. They have no residual love for the Clintons, so they’re looking at Hillary with pretty fresh eyes, and they see a relatively conservative politician. The hyperbole about her being like a Republican comes from that observation.

  14. 14
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @dogwood: In fairness, it’s the daughter’s friend who said it, it’s the daughter’s father– who lived through the last round of “not a dime’s worth of difference”– who thinks this represents an insightful and engaged opinion.

    And something about Debbie Wasserman Schultz and legal weed, which is the most important issue facing the country.

  15. 15
    dogwood says:

    @Betty Cracker:
    That’s interesting. In my state you can vote in the primary or participate in a caucus if you will be eligible to vote in the general.

  16. 16
    yegg says:

    Man, you left out the best part, when she said that she was really bothered by the “drug culture that surrounded my childhood. Not mine. I grew up in the suburbs.”

    Lol of course white suburban people don’t do drugs aside, I have no idea what she’s talking about here. She was really bothered by the drug culture that surrounded the childhood of the Urban Other?

    Anyways, I think we can all agree if there’s one thing a DNC chair should be doing it’s insulting Democratic groups and pushing right-wing talking points.

  17. 17
    Alex.S says:

    I remember when I was young, angrily saying that there was no difference between Gore and Bush… I actually can’t remember anything that I thought they were the same on except for “corporate sellouts”.

    As far as Hillary Clinton goes, I’d say at this point there’s almost no difference between a Hillary Presidency and the Obama Presidency.

  18. 18
    mistermix says:

    @dogwood: It wasn’t my daughter. So, no, you don’t have it right.

    Setting aside the awful thing that my daughter’s friend said, which is quite unlike any of the garden variety hyperbole that is the norm in comments at Balloon Juice, I think it is possible to imagine that quite a few young women support Sanders because of his positions, not because they’ve forgotten Roe v Wade.

  19. 19
    Cacti says:

    @Mike J:

    Every policy disagreement with anybody who isn’t on Bernie’s payroll is evidence of THE BIGGEST BETRAYAL EVER and proof that THE GAME IS RIGGED !ELEVENTY!

    Just yesterday berners were whining that Obama’s speech was a sneaky way to point out how wrong Bernie is on gun control.

    Pop over to DU sometime if you want to see the Sanders closed information feedback loop in full effect.

    The polls that all show him losing are skewed, the media is all in cahoots to keep him down, any Dem who isn’t on the Bernie bandwagon has Stockholm Syndrome.

    Their delusions are quite florid.

  20. 20
    Josie says:

    I don’t like DWS and I completely disagree with her about marijuana legalization, but she is correct in pointing out that many young women have no idea how bad things can get for women if the Republicans get to appoint the next two or three supreme court justices.

  21. 21
    dogwood says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:
    Thanks. I actually noticed my hasty error after reading other comments and tried to edit. But I missed the deadline for removing shit that shows you didn’t read carefully enough.

  22. 22
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    Every time I see the initials DWS, my inner dyslectic wants to go out and buy shoes.

  23. 23
    David Koch says:

    @mistermix: Do they mention anything about Sanders’s putrid history as an NRA errand-boy? Or is granting full blanket immunity to gun manufactures who sell Tec-9s and Mac-10s liberal? Do they mention how Sanders has repeatedly voted against Immigration reform or is that liberal too? Do they mention how Sanders voted to keep GITMO open or is that now kewl?

    With positions like this, what’s the difference btwn Sanders and a Republican?

    Spare me.

  24. 24
    gene108 says:

    In the words of one of her friends: “what’s the difference between Hillary and a Republican?”

    A lot. A huge, vast gaping Grand Canyon sized chasm.

    A better question is what’s the difference between Barack Obama, Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton.

    The answer, not that much.

    Bernie’s a lot more shout-y than the other two, when talking about economic issues and pretty much anything else.

    He’s probably less interested in gun control.

    Otherwise, the differences are not huge.

  25. 25
    mistermix says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    And something about Debbie Wasserman Schultz and legal weed, which is the most important issue facing the country.

    Perhaps if you’re young and like to smoke pot, and don’t want to risk complete ruination of your life because of our insane / illogical drug laws surrounding marijuana, it would be an important issue to you. Seems to be important to 71 percent of the electorate under 35, according to the Gallup poll I cited.

  26. 26
    SFAW says:

    @mistermix:

    The hyperbole about her being like a Republican comes from that observation.

    I’m not sure I would use the term “observation” – it implies a level of attention and understanding greater than the evidence indicates.

    Yeah, Hillary’s more corporatist than Bernie, but if they seriously (or even semi-seriously) think she’s the same as a typical Rethug, then they clearly are not looking too hard at who the Rethugs really are.

    That being said: “numbskull” may be too kind a word for DWS. Her vacating the position can’t happen soon enough.

  27. 27
    dedc79 says:

    @mistermix: Most (maybe all) of us aren’t criticizing them for being Bernie supporters. We’re criticizing them for their obliviousness to how crazy the GOP is and how different the GOP nominees are from Clinton.

  28. 28
    Cacti says:

    @gene108:

    An easy exercise for the not terribly bright friends of MM’s progeny would be to replace “Republican” with the name of an actual Republican candidate, to really illustrate how stupid it sounds:

    “What’s the difference between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump?”

    “What’s the difference between Hillary Clinton and Ted Cruz?”

    “What’s the difference between Hillary Clinton and Mike Huckabee?”

    etc.

  29. 29
    dogwood says:

    @Josie:
    And many women who aren’t young have chosen to forget how bad it can get.

  30. 30
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @gene108: Bernie’s a lot more shout-y than the other two, when talking about economic issues and pretty much anything else.

    He has a couple of intriguing proposals that have no chance of getting the votes of Claire McCaskill and Chuck Schemer, much less Republicans.

    But if we’ve learned anything from the last seven years, it’s that Congress doesn’t count if the president has balls! or really wants to get a law passed.

  31. 31
    Hildebrand says:

    @goblue72:

    on the spectrum between the Republican party, Hillary Clinton and the socialist

    Having taught undergraduates for the last ten years, I can tell you, they have no more clue about what it means to be a socialist than the Republicans screaming about Socialists. I had a half dozen Bernie-curious students in my office over the course of this last term, and they all figured if Bernie doesn’t get the nod, they will just go for Trump in the general. I then patiently explained to them that decision made absolutely no sense. I carefully laid out the issues, and the positions of the two major parties, and it finally dawned on them that they really were Democrats, and that seeing Bernie and Donald as akin to one another was a rather stupid way to think – but that is the gist that they got from their news sources. We have some work to do.

  32. 32
    yegg says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Seeing as some Clinton supporters seem to be convinced that Bernie’s squishiness on gun control matters one iota, I don’t think this is restricted to one side.

  33. 33
    SFAW says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    my inner dyslectic wants to go out and buy shoes

    What’s “lysdectic”? Can’t find it in my Webster’s.

  34. 34
    Shantanu Saha says:

    In the words of one of her friends: “what’s the difference between Hillary and a Republican?”

    I have a 60-year-old progressive friend who floods Facebook with messages and links to brogressive blogs and news articles saying pretty much the same thing, on a weekly basis. When I point out the actual differences to him, he doesn’t seem to hear me. This is not limited to young women, or to voters who have not been paying attention. It is instead a reflection of a generation’s worth of right wing and mainstream media’s assaults on the character of the Clintons, and Hillary in particular.

    It is also a passive-aggressive reaction to Bill Clinton’s presidency. Bill Clinton was president during an era when the Democratic party was much less ideologically homogeneous. He had to govern far to the right of where the party is now, especially after setbacks with gays in the military, his healthcare plan, and the Republican Contract on America. Sandernistas hang this around Hillary’s neck like it’s entirely her fault, while ignoring Sanders’ own record of enacting exactly 0 pieces of national progressive legislation by the force of his personality during his long tenure as a politician.

    It’s galling seeing delusional progressives let perfect be the enemy of the good, when said object of desire ain’t so perfect after all.

  35. 35
    geg6 says:

    @dedc79:

    Totally agree. Anyone that clueless is not very politically engaged.

    OTOH, the politically engaged young women I encounter every day are pretty excited to vote for Hillary.

    As for DWS, she should just shut her stupid piehole and understand that no Democrat I know, whether they are ready for Hillary or feeling the Bern, will ever support this dumb ass for anything every again, not even dog catcher.

  36. 36
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: LOL, I thought I was the only one.

  37. 37
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @mistermix: So liberal younger women like the liberal candidate? AND they repeat conventional wisdom about it? Wow, that IS new. SO GENERATIONS SUCH WOW

  38. 38
    joes527 says:

    @Cacti:

    “What’s the difference between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump?”
    “What’s the difference between Hillary Clinton and Ted Cruz?”
    “What’s the difference between Hillary Clinton and Mike Huckabee?”

    Q: “What’s the difference between Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush?”
    A: “Jeb Bush is still running??!!??”

  39. 39
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @mistermix: I don’t know about your state, but as the kid said about here in CA, if you want to smoke pot legally you can do so quite easily. All you gota do is get a script and that’s really easy.

  40. 40
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Don’t forget the Political Revolution, Jim. That magically fixes everything!

  41. 41
    geg6 says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    The young women I know also have nothing nice to say about the Bernie fans on social media. And the only young people I know who are huge Bernie fans are all, well, let’s just call them the campus bros and leave it at that.

  42. 42
    David Koch says:

    ‘If Bernie’s going to beat Clinton it’s bc people don’t want a 3rd Obama term.’ — Sanders campaign manager Tad Devine

    “Barack Obama is one of the most consequential presidents in American history — and he will be a particularly towering figure in the history of American progressivism.” ~ Vox

    So Sanders’s official campaign strategy is to run against one of the most beloved and leading figures in Progressive history.

    Spare me, what’s the difference between Sanders and a Republican?

  43. 43
    geg6 says:

    @Josie:

    They may have no idea of what that reality is, but they aren’t blind to what the consequences may be. She is implying they are. She really is one of the stupidest Dems alive, always remembering that Joe Manchin will always be number one.

  44. 44
    Betty Cracker says:

    Michelle Goldberg at Slate (I know, I know) has a piece up on this very topic in which she concludes that, while DWS may be bad at her DNC job, she’s not wrong about young women’s complacency. An excerpt:

    Nevertheless, now that I’m 40, I understand the exasperation of older Clinton supporters in a way I simply could not at 32. That’s because—in my own, admittedly very privileged experience—it’s only as I approach middle age that I’m aware of what being a woman has cost me. In my twenties and early thirties, I felt that I enjoyed the same professional attention and opportunities as my male colleagues. I didn’t realize at the time that being treated as an ingénue and being treated as an up-and-comer are not the same thing, and that only one comes with a continuing skyward trajectory. I couldn’t have seen then how so many of the men in my peer group would soar beyond the women, how having children would change my professional prospects, how aging would mean being treated with less respect instead of more.

    I think that’s true.

  45. 45
    kc says:

    In the words of one of her friends: “what’s the difference between Hillary and a Republican?”

    For all our sakes I hope she doesn’t have to learn the answer to that the hard way.

  46. 46
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @joes527: Ah, jeb😓.

  47. 47
    kc says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Anyone who doesn’t know the difference between Hillary and any Republican clearly doesn’t give a shit about choice for women.

    Yeah. I sincerely hope it doesn’t take a couple more Alitos for people to figure this out.

  48. 48
    dogwood says:

    @David Koch: I don’t think these young women are any different than American voters of many age groups. They care about a few things. If pot legalization is the guiding principle then Hillary is no different than a republican. If Sanders weak record on guns doesn’t bother them it’s probably because they don’t have intense feelings about it. They’re just ordinary voters. They vote and move on. Some get angry when the savior can’t achieve the dream in a few months.

  49. 49
    Johnnybuck says:

    @Shantanu Saha:

    while ignoring Sanders’ own record of enacting exactly 0 pieces of national progressive legislation by the force of his personality during his long tenure as a politician.

    It’s all about being pure man.

  50. 50
    dogwood says:

    @geg6:
    Most Democratic voters probably don’t know who DWS is.

  51. 51
    Eric U. says:

    being critical of young people is an ancient pastime. There are plenty of people of all ages that can’t tell that the republicans are batshit crazy. So if you compare HRC to the media portrayal of republicans, they may not look that different

  52. 52
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @David Koch: Tad Devine is the 2016 version of Mark Penn.

  53. 53
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @dogwood: They probably think of shoes.

  54. 54
    mistermix says:

    @Betty Cracker: I hope for the sake of both of our daughters that a little progress has been made and this generation of women will get better treatment than Michelle Goldberg experienced.

  55. 55
    Bill says:

    Like yours, this is the first presidential election my daughter can vote in. Like yours, she’s all in on Bernie. Not because she sees Hillary as a Republican (she doesn’t), but because Bernie is more aligned with her on economic issues. Abortion matters a lot to her, but she rightly understands that Hillary and Bernie are completely aligned on that issue.

    I can tell you that the fact Hillary is a woman matters very little to her. While she understands the need for a Woman President, she also sees it as an inevitability. She would never vote for a candidate just because she’s a woman.

    And yes she will vote Clinton in the general.

  56. 56
    Mnemosyne says:

    Frankly, all of this vitriol about DWS reminds me way too much of being forced to watch Fox News with my (now late) Dad. They had some weird hard-on for hating her, and it creeps me out to see it showing up on the left, too.

  57. 57
    dogwood says:

    I was still teaching high school government during the 2008 election cycle. Liberal students who supported Ron Paul weren’t uncommon. The anti war talk sold them and the rest of his claptrap was just background noise to them.

  58. 58
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @Mnemosyne: My problem with DWS is that
    1)she doesn’t seem that good at the job and
    2)I think the job of party leader should be a full time job that should not be filled by a current office holder.

  59. 59
    chopper says:

    @mistermix:

    They are not excited by her positions, and they do know where she and Bernie stand on those issues.

    if they know where she stands then why would they ask something as moronic as “what’s the difference between hillary and a republican?”

  60. 60
    gene108 says:

    @Cacti:

    There’s a long running contention among liberals that Bill and by association Hillary are Republican-lite.

    I think America was a much more socially conservative place 20-25 years ago and Bill got some liberal things done, but at the end of the day people were not open to “big government” programs.

    Bill wanted to “thread the needle” by showing “government is NOT the problem” by reforming agencies, helping people with social services, while not adding to the “alphabet soup” of government agencies. You can see this at work with how he made turning FEMA into a functioning agency a priority and mostly succeeded.

  61. 61
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @chopper: Maybe they don’t know where “a republican” stands on the issues? Other than that, I got nothing. (Shades of 2000).

  62. 62
    cmorenc says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    this will be the first election my daughter can vote in as well (she’ll miss the primary but be eligible to vote in the general). She’s a huge Hillary supporter

    I would be cautious about saying in any woman’s presence that she is a huge Hillary supporter. Some women might take the “huge” thing the wrong way. :=) Hopefully, Betty’s daughter won’t read the wrong context of such a remark from her mom.

  63. 63
    OutsideTheBeltway says:

    In the words of one of her friends: “what’s the difference between Hillary and a Republican?” Granted, that’s an overstatement

    Yes, that is an overstatement, but not by much.

    The young people I know aren’t saying that they see no difference between Hillary and the Republicans. What they are saying is that the country has a lot of problems and they want to see some progressive changes NOW. Hillary’s campaign rhetoric is all about preserving the status quo, which they see as giving up. Some might register and vote anyway, because they recognize the danger in having Republicans control all three branches of Government, but many would simply not bother.

    I know one very smart and talented young lady who plans to move to Canada or the EU if Sanders doesn’t get the nomination. Her reasoning is that the USA is broken, and if the voters give Hillary nod then that is a sign that there isn’t enough will to fix it. That’s not complacency, that’s engagement; just not the sort the DNC wants to acknowledge.

    I had a conversation the other day with a 20-something about the difference in perspective. He views Global Warming the same way my parents viewed WW II and the Nazis, and when you look at the damages it is clear why. He is disgusted by the fact that Hillary and the Republicans spend so much time and energy worrying about setting up no-fly zones in the middle east when he knows New Orleans, Miami, most of the Florida coast, and parts of San Fransisco and NYC will disappear in his lifetime. For him, the certainty that we are losing entire cities dwarfs the fear that some mall in NJ might get bombed by some fanatic. Only Bernie speaks his language. That’s why he might say, “What’s the difference between Hillary and a Republican?” and mean it.

  64. 64
    Heliopause says:

    a complacency among the generation of young women whose entire lives have been lived after Roe v. Wade was decided.

    The problem is that young women today don’t have a lot of time for political activism because they have to work three jobs to raise their children. The solution for them is:

    1. Neoliberal economics. That will export all the nasty jobs overseas and leave our young women with all the wonderful barista and waitressing jobs that they could possibly want.

    2. Ending welfare as we know it. Once the young women put down the bon-bons, get off their fluffy asses, and get to work at the espresso stand they’ll have more disposable income.

    3. Mass incarceration. By throwing entire generations of young men in the slammer that will leave all those super jobs referenced above for the young women, who can then work four jobs simultaneously and get back on their feet.

    In no time they’ll have saved up enough to leave a little time for political activism.

  65. 65
    danielx says:

    @yegg:

    I don’t oppose the use of medical marijuana. I just don’t think we should legalize more mind-altering substances if we want to make it less likely that people travel down the path toward using drugs. We have had a resurgence of drug use instead of a decline. There is a huge heroin epidemic.

    Leave us not forget that something like 80% of the world opium base supply comes from a locale in which we have had a shitload of troops stationed for the last fourteen fucking years.

  66. 66
    magurakurin says:

    @goblue72: Why are you making cracks aboout age? What the fuck does that have do with it?

  67. 67
    Brachiator says:

    @goblue72:

    Second, from their perspective – on the spectrum between the Republican party, Hillary Clinton and the socialist (Bernie) – if you are a Lefty young person, on that spectrum, Hillary could very well be seen as closer to the GOP than Bernie – particularly if your frame is focused on issues relevant to young people – such as who do they feel is most likely to stand up to Wall Street and the stacked deck that young people face?

    This is pretty lame. If you are a young lefty, you probably deal more with your parents than with Wall Street.

    Hillary would be closer to the GOP only if you are on drugs. If you are a young woman, the GOP would be far more likely to have an impact on your reproductive freedom than any Democrat, including Hillary.

    If you are a gay woman, or nonwhite, the GOP actively hates you and would make sure that you were reduced to the level of a second class citizen. There is nothing remotely similar to this in anything that Hillary (or Bernie) believes.

    If you are a Muslim woman, the GOP would have you packing your bags.

    There is no rational universe in which a politically engaged young person would see Hillary Clinton’s position as closer to the GOP.

  68. 68
    Mnemosyne says:

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    I understand not liking her, because she’s an incompetent idiot who makes Democrats look bad. This interview seems like pretty thin gruel to justify a rant, though.

    But, then, I don’t really care about pot legalization either way, which I realize makes me worse than Hitler as far as some people on the left are concerned.

  69. 69
    J R in WV says:

    @Cacti:

    So, “DU” — that would be Ducks Unlimited, a bumper sticker I see often around here? Or what the F, in other words…?

  70. 70
  71. 71
    Brachiator says:

    @dedc79:

    I’m not a big fan of Hillary (I may well vote for Sanders in the primary but will vote for HiIllary in the general with zero hesitation)

    I guess at this point, I realize that I am not a big fan of Hillary, but I would not vote for Bernie in a primary. I would never contribute a dime to his campaign.

    His anti-Wall Street blather is tired and ineffectual. Aside from being a nice guy, I have not seen anything that would make me eager to support him.

    If by some miracle he became the nominee I would vote for him, unless maybe his VP choice was some version of a Sarah Palin.

  72. 72
    Comrade Luke says:

    Yes, yes, young people are only “engaged” if they agree with all of you that Hillary is just great.

    Please, do go on.

  73. 73
    Cacti says:

    @J R in WV:

    Democratic Underground. A much more heavily trafficked lefty political site than BJ.

  74. 74
    J R in WV says:

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    Yes, but Dawg help you if you drive through a Border Patrol checkpoint smelling like pot. You will be searched, you vehicle will be stripped, for any tiny amount of pot you will be in a holding cell for a long time while a LEO is called to arrest you.

    Because it isn’t legal yet, at all, for a federal enforcement agency!!

  75. 75
    J R in WV says:

    @Cacti:

    Ok cool! Is it as funny at B-J? don’t answer, we know it isn’t, can’t be!

  76. 76
    Brachiator says:

    @danielx:

    Leave us not forget that something like 80% of the world opium base supply comes from a locale in which we have had a shitload of troops stationed for the last fourteen fucking years

    A bit of a non sequitur. The world meth capital is probably somewhere in the US, and there are no US troops stationed where cocaine is processed.

    If anything, the demand for drugs is so great that cultivation and supply is immune to little things like war.

  77. 77
    Johnnybuck says:

    @Comrade Luke: This.

    Gary Hart sure looked a lot cooler than Mondale to me in my first Presidential election, same with Jesse in ’88. I’ve voted for the nominee ever since. They may not like Hillary, but they know what the score is.

  78. 78
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Comrade Luke: Yes, yes, young people are only “engaged” if they agree with all of you that Hillary is just great.

    Not even close. But keep the flame of your self-righteousness alive. Maybe you’ll learn to read by its pure and shining light.

  79. 79
    J R in WV says:

    @Comrade Luke:

    Hillary is great compared to what?

    Donald Trump?

    Rafael Cruz?

    Marko Rubio?

    John Ellis Bush? (and how many people know that is his name?)

    Need I continue? Compared to every seeker of the Republican nomination, Hillary is Great! She isn’t in favor of arresting gays for Gay Cooties! She isn’t in favor of raping women seeking medical care with ultrasound wands BY LAW!!!

    I gotta quit now. Life to live, dinner to fix. Warm the leftovers I made last night, potato/cheese/kielbasa casserole. With onions and garlic and cream.

    ETA: And this woman, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, totally not competent to hold her position. Hillary should get rid of her the moment she obtains the nomination, which she will!

  80. 80
    different-church-lady says:

    In the words of one of her friends: “what’s the difference between Hillary and a Republican?” Granted, that’s an overstatement…

    It’s also a mindless trope, and a goddamned fucking clueless thing to say.

  81. 81
    Kropadope says:

    @different-church-lady: Hillary has a pretty bad record across the board, but I gotta say that for each thing she’s bad on, nearly all or all of the Republicans are worse.

  82. 82
    SFAW says:

    @OutsideTheBeltway:

    That’s not complacency, that’s engagement;

    Ah, yes, that must be it. I remember the Doctor’s speech to Colonel Engagement.

    That’s why he might say, “What’s the difference between Hillary and a Republican?” and mean it.

    Your friend’s name wouldn’t be Ralph, would it? If so, don’t tell him about my Corvair.

    OK, time to go put on my Mumia sweatshirt.

  83. 83

    @Corner Stone: So this: https://twitter.com/billmon1/status/684496396150554624 is something a Democrat ought to be saying? Or do you prefer Social Security to be privatized?

  84. 84
    SFAW says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    But, then, I don’t really care about pot legalization either way, which I realize makes me worse than Hitler as far as some people on the left are concerned.

    No, that’s not the reason …

    (I’m kidding. It was just such a good set-up, I couldn’t resist. Which makes ME worse than Hitler.)

  85. 85
    Starfish says:

    To be young again… Back in around, let’s say 2000, when I was about 22, I may have said, “What’s the difference between Gore and Bush” and may have wanted to vote for Nader, but I don’t think that I was politically engaged enough to figure out how to vote during that election.

    Since that time, I learned that after Republicans get done with rolling back abortion rights, they will roll back birth control. They will start wars for no reason other than to prove that they are tough. I learned that idealogical purity ponies are not necessarily electable and may not accomplish much when it comes to meaningful legislation because they may not have the skills to work well with others and get things done.

  86. 86
    Bobby Thomson says:

    Shorter: mix’ daughter hangs out with some real dipshits.

  87. 87
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Phil Perspective: don’t burn in the straw.

    There’s no reason why working people should be paying taxes to fund college for the children of the wealthy. Restoring Pell grants is a much worthier goal but doesn’t get the splash in the press that free college for all does. No matter how you look at it, free college for all is a transfer of wealth to people who don’t need it. Social Security is funded in a completely different way, by design, to keep it from being welfare queened.

  88. 88
    father pussbucket says:

    @mistermix:

    The hyperbole about her being like a Republican comes from that observation.

    I get that it’s hyperbole, but it’s also a Nader trope, and if it weren’t for Nader, we wouldn’t have had W.

  89. 89
    OutsideTheBeltway says:

    @SFAW: Haha. No, his name is Lance.

    My friends, and their friends, are well aware of the damages that a Republican president would wreck. I’ve heard, “If Trump is elected President I’ll be in Canada looking for a job the next day” from many young people.

    The difference between a 20 something and a 60 something is in their time horizon. Many of my older friends call the younger ones idealists, or worse, but the reality is that they are thinking about raising families over the next 70 years while my older friends just want a peaceful retirement.

    The ones that are not complete fools (yes, I know a few of those too) see 3 choices:

    1) Elect Hillary to keep the 20th Century Reagan/Bush/Clinton cold warrior society alive.
    2) Elect any one of the Republicans to drive society back to the 18th or 19th century.
    3) Elect Sanders to build on Obama’s start to survive and thrive in the 21st century.

    So yeah, the rhetorical statement “What’s the difference between Hillary and a Republican?” sounds bad, but I hear it as just another sound bite taken out of context. What I hear is the opposite of complacency. What I hear is the equivalent of “Go big or go home.”

  90. 90
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @mistermix:

    The hyperbole about her being like a Republican comes from that observation them being really fucking stupid.

    I mean, shit – you really have to be god damn dumb to say something like that, no matter how long your frame of reference is.

  91. 91
    Gvg says:

    I don’t like Sanders. I don’t trust him to really get women’s issues for reasons of him being so clueless about racism and that it’s not all economics. I fear he’ll be just as generally supportive without really being that serious. I am upset that any young women think he is more liberal than Hillary. IMO on most issues she is actually more liberal. The difference is that he was able to survive where he lived while calling himself a socialist. Gun control, prison reform, police reform, women’s reproductive rights, health care….lots of things Hillary has a better actual record. Plus she has actually done negotiations and got things done and he seems all talk. Anyone can talk. The way I can tell if it’s real is results. I like his message too, but I think that’s all he is.

  92. 92
    Luigidaman says:

    Yeah, no, sorry. My 24 year old daughter is poltically conscious and a liberal (thanks to me, her dad!). She has com9pained loudly to me on several occasions that her many female friends won’t even vote, much less engage in political dialogue relevant to themselves. I know a lot of people will say how really engaged they are, but no, twenty somethings are not. I’m a professor and the only thing that has gotten millenials excited (mainly males) is the legalizing of marijuana. Wake up, liberals. Millenials are not engaged.

  93. 93
    SFAW says:

    @OutsideTheBeltway:

    What I hear is the equivalent of “Go big or go home.”

    Whatever THAT means in this context.

    I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your posts at 63 and 89 are about as cogent (or perhaps coherent) as Prof. Irwin Corey at his peak.

    70-year window vs. “Let me die in peace”? Right. Keep telling yourself that those are the real issues. You’re absolutely right, because nothing says “old fart” like adopting the “Who gives a fuck if my kids or grandkids suffer? I’ll be dead” mindset. Most of my old-fart friends think that way already. In fact, we go out of our way to fuck things up for the next N generations. And then we throw down shots of good single-malt, followed by unicorn-tear chasers.

    But here’s a hint: what your dimwitted acquaintances are spouting ain’t engagement, it’s regurgitating memes from purity trolls or similar. I have no particular love for Hillary (or her Wall Street affinities), and would rather see someone like Sherrod Brown or Elizabeth Warren carrying the Dem banner, but the chasm between Hillary and ANY of the Rethug contenders is fairly sizable.

  94. 94
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Hillary’s REPUBLICAN policies include death penalty support, knee jerk militarism, Corporatism on steroids, all with a hand out for Corporate cash that is absolutely predictive of her policies.

    Her death penalty support is an abomination that disproportionately hurts minorities.

    Her militarism, from Iraq, Syria, and Libya has had horrific consequences.

    Her rejection of a decent minimum wage and support of outsourcing Trade agreements help Billionaire Walmart heirs and hurts Working Americans.

    Her rejection of free medical care literally hurts millions.

    Her rejection of free State College fails on so many levels it’s hard to know where to start.

    ^ Right-wing policies.

    But absolutely, she’s the best REPUBLICAN leader in the country. No contest.

  95. 95
    RaflW says:

    So, there is a heroin epidemic in this country. DWS is correct in noting that. But what is the linkage to legalized pot? Can she explain that, beyond some garbage Nancy Reagan “just say no” type stuff about pot as a gateway drug?

    Look, I’ve been sober 13 years and quit pot even before I quit drinking. I have no interest in ever using the stuff again (and I spend 6-10 weeks a year in Colorado, so the opportunities are plentiful for me to ignore). I just don’t believe that legalized pot leads to heroin use. Easy access to relatively cheap, frighteningly pure heroin across the US leads to increased heroin use.

    So, DWS, what are you doing about that last bit? Our federal drug policy is a failure. Tell me what you’d do different in the future so I know why I should support Dems. That’s your job, DWS.

  96. 96
    SFAW says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    You’ve convinced me, the scales have fallen from mine eyes, the clouds have parted, I can see clearly now: . She has now supplanted Obama (or is it Carter? I can never remember) as History’s Greatest Monster.

    You forgot her nightly mantra of “Arbeit macht Frei,” her candle lit in memory of Iosif Vissarionovich, and her large posters of Ron Artest and Jack Tatum. Alert the ICC!

    But I guess I must not have been paying sufficient attention, because I missed the US invasions of Syria and Libya. Plus her using her mind control to convince Obama that single-payer is not the healthcare plan he’s looking for.

  97. 97
    Thoughtful Today says:

    I appreciate SFAW’s honest representation of Clinton supporters’ attitudes towards Bernie supporters:

    Clinton supporters, just in this thread, have been alternately insulting, condescending, hyperbolic, deliberately antagonistic, illogical, and ahistorical.

    Clinton supporter SFAW’s Godwin flirtation… wow.

  98. 98
    SFAW says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    Glad to see you have continued to remain as clueless and hyperbolic – and continue to project, apparently – as I last saw you.

    I’d normally suggest that you read your own borderline-unhinged comments at 94, as an example of all the things of which you accuse Hillary supporters. But that suggestion would create the impression that you have an iota of self-awareness, or the intellectual chops to realize your hysterics are just that.

    “Militarism”? “Abomination”? “Literally hurts millions”? I guess we should all be grateful that you didn’t try to suggest that she kicks and then strangles puppies. And, you DID resist the urge to Godwin her, so I guess there’s that.

    You and Racist to Rise should get a room, I’m sure the two of you would have a grand old time. That is, assuming you’re actually two different people.

    Thanks for brightening up an otherwise-dreary morning.

    ETA: Oh, and quit whining. You bring the bullshit, you reap what you sow.

  99. 99
    Sherparick says:

    @dedc79: Any one who says that has been reading to many Salon pieces. Let’s face it, the default setting of a Democratic President with the crazy ass Wing Nut Republicans running Congress is simply to block all the terrible things they want to do domestically and internationally and select Supreme Court justices not anxious to establish Mark Hanna’s imaginary 19th century corporate oligarchy. The war on drugs, another terrible legacy of the Nixon and Reagan administrations (it appeared for a while that it might end under Carter, but this flirtation with hippieness became one of the DLC’s memes for explaining why Democrats had to become more like Republicans to win elections.)

    DWS I conclude has her current vice-grip on the DNC through her control of a significant amount of fundraising from New York and Miami. That she is a political idiot outside her very narrow scope of donors has not hurt her with the Democratic National Elite, which sadly is still very DLCish and Rubinite (socially liberal on abortion and LGBT rights, pretty conservative on economics). She has very similar political instincts and skills with her patron, Rahm Emmanuel, which is not a good thing.

  100. 100
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Again:

    The death penalty is an abomination.

    Hillary supports it, Bernie doesn’t.

    The Iraq War disaster was avoidable.

    Hillary voted for it, Bernie voted against it.

    College education should be a human right.

    Hillary is against it, Bernie is for it.

    Health care should be a human right.

    Hillary is against it, Bernie is for it.

    ymmv

  101. 101
    SFAW says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    You forgot ponies. Are you saying having a pony shouldn’t be a human right?

    How about a job that pays a lot more than the value of the work you do? (Although I would guess that Trolling for Bernie doesn’t pay a ton.)

    You also forgot EVIL: Hillary is for it, Bernie is against it.
    And human rights: Hillary is against them, Bernie is for them.

    Heat, electricity, and clean water are human rights, and should be free – why has Hillary not come out in favor of that?
    Why has Hillary not issued a statement that she is in favor of happiness?

    Eating meat is an abomination, why does Hillary not come out against it?

    I do like how you shifted from Iraq, Syria, and Libya to Iraq-only. Oops.

    Can you please post your mailing address here? I’d like to send you a String of Clutchable Pearls, along with a Couch suitable for fainting. And ponies, I want to send you lots of ponies.

  102. 102
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Clinton supporter SFAW is saying that core human rights like banning the death penalty is a “pony”.

    A college education as a core utility in the 21st Century is a “pony”.

    Basic health care is a “pony”.

    Please,

    Think bigger.

  103. 103
    SFAW says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    Please,

    grow up

    ETA: And, not that you give a shit about accuracy or reality, but, it’s Dem-supporter SFAW. Unlike some of the Naderites Sandersites, I’ll vote for Bernie if he wins the nom, and without hesitation.

  104. 104
    Thoughtful Today says:

    lol

    I point out very specific policy differences I have with Hillary and SFAW hits me with a spaghetti plate of illogical accusations, shits on core human rights, then denies he’s a Hillary supporter.

    Classic.

  105. 105
    SFAW says:

    No, I hit you with your overblown, near hysterical characterization of Hillary’s positions. Your initial comment was not that far from calling her History’s Greatest Monster. Don’t like being called on that bullshit? Then don’t post like you’re a three-year-old who’s pissed at Mommy or Daddy because they told you that you couldn’t have a pony.

    And free college is not a “core human right.” And free health care isn’t. They’re both really nice to have, but so is having a job that would pay me $200K per year.

    Never said I wasn’t a Hillary supporter. Never said I wasn’t a Bernie supporter, either.

    I just get tired of you latter-day Naderites with your “no diff between Hills and Rethugs” ridiculous screechings. I don’t recall if YOU have yet said you won’t vote for her if she wins the nom, but doing your best to demonize her is not exactly the writing of someone trying to effect a policy change – it’s just whining. And it brings a smile to the face of Reinhold Priebus. Which is probably OK by you.

    Any more BS you want to spew? I think today is Make Shit Up Thursday, so that’s a plus for you.

  106. 106
    SFAW says:

    Request to the Mods (so to speak):
    Is there a “Jonanism” category yet? If there isn’t, there should be, because all the Hillary = Republicans topics belong there.

    And, for what it’s worth, the definition of the term in your Lexicon is not correct. The original meaning of Jonanism was along the lines of “all of my/your enemies are exactly the same.” The late, great Calling All Toasters might disagree with your def as it currently stands.

  107. 107
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Again:

    Core values that Hillary doesn’t share with me:

    Hillary supports the death penalty. It’s an abomination.

    College educations and health care are human rights. Hillary sees them as products for Corporations to profit from.

    Banksters should be well regulated. Hillary thinks they should be unregulated because … 9/11.

    Bernie shares my core values. Hillary doesn’t.

  108. 108
    SFAW says:

    You keep blathering on, apparently under the impression that repetition increases the truth value of your statements. It doesn’t.

    College education is not a human right, it’s important, and a “nice-to-have,” but that’s about it. I may think that getting paid what I WANT, not what I’m worth, is a human right. Or, I would if I had been lobotomized.

    And frankly, equating a college education (what? Not FREE college education any more? How times change) with something like voting or non-discriminatory practices in housing/marriage/employment is pretty fucking offensive. And THAT is why you’re an object of ridicule/scorn.

    What are you going to do if Hillary wins the nom? Join Trump’s campaign?

  109. 109
    Thoughtful Today says:

    … Again

    Policies and Values:

    Hillary doesn’t believe that a College education is a human right. Bernie and I believe College educations are essential utilities.

    Hillary doesn’t believe health care should be a human right. Bernie disagrees. And if you’ve read the Bible, health care is a core _Christian_ value. It should have been a core Democratic Party plank 80 years ago. (Corporate insurance is _not_ health care.)

    Hillary supports executions. Bernie doesn’t. Executions as barbaric. It stains entire cultures. That it disproportionately falls on minorities is it’s own crime. That last fact alone should have anyone with a decent conscience reject the death penalty.

  110. 110
    SFAW says:

    Hillary doesn’t believe that a College education is a human right. Bernie and I believe College educations are essential utilities.

    You keep changing your terms and definitions. Typical.

    Interesting that you pick-and-choose which parts of which ethos you choose to “follow.” The Bible, but only certain parts of it, for example.

    Executions “barbaric”? Whatever. That minorities bear an outsized share of that punishment is certainly a major injustice, to put it mildly, but whether the state has a right to exact punishment as it sees fit is up for debate.

    You might consider cutting out the hyperbole, and increasing the consistency of your “arguments.” Doing so might reduce your clownfulness. Probably not, but there’s always hope.

    You still didn’t answer my question: if Hillary wins the nom, are you going to support Trump (or whomever)? Or refuse to vote? Or suck it up and vote for someone you dislike/hate, because she’d be better than the Rethug alternative? Inquiring minds want to know.

  111. 111
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Again:

    College education is a human right. In the 21st Century it’s a core utility.

    Executions are barbaric. (Your disconnection from “the state” executing Citizens is … deeply disturbing. ‘We’, collectively, _are_ “the state”.)

    Banksters should be well regulated.

    Bernie shares those core values with me. Hillary doesn’t.

    Hillary’s slow evolution from a literal Republican to a Republican policy supporting Dem makes her supporters demands for fealty increasingly toxic, especially as I’m a more loyal Democratic Party voter than Hillary Clinton, SFAW.

  112. 112
    SFAW says:

    @Thoughtful Today:
    Again:

    Endless/mindless repetition of the same dubious (to put it nicely) “rights” is not argument.

    You still haven’t answered my question(s), but history has shown you’re pretty good at flapping your figurative lips, but not much else. I’m merely the latest in a long string of people who have asked you questions without you having the courtesy to respond.

    I hope Reince is paying you enough for this gig, because I’d hate to think you’re doing it on the cheap. Wait, did I say “hate”? I meant “love.”

    I’m a more loyal Democratic Party voter than Hillary Clinton, SFAW.

    Keep telling yourself that, clown. Saint Ralph the Pure would be proud.

  113. 113
    chopper says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    Banksters should be well regulated. Hillary thinks they should be unregulated because … 9/11.

    hilz thinks the bankers should be completely unregulated?

  114. 114
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Again:

    Hillary’s right-wing positions on the death penalty, the use of the military, and access to health care and State college educations, are sharp differences from what should be core Democratic Party values.

    Her glacial evolution on core concepts like gay marriage (2013) and carbon extraction (Keystone, 2015) illustrate a complete lack of leadership.

    Hillary’s continued servitude to Corporate interests, especially the deregulated banksters and financial fraudsters, shows a continued lack of good judgement.

    ymmv

  115. 115
    SFAW says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    Answer the question, clown.

  116. 116
    Thoughtful Today says:

    SFAW makes demands: “Answer the question, clown.”

    It’s a perfect encapsulation of Hillary’s nastier supporters on this blog: It’s simultaneously insulting with the expectation of servitude.

  117. 117
    chopper says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    hilz thinks the bankers should be completely unregulated?

  118. 118
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Here’s a ‘debate’ that should come up more often:

    Hillary’s anti-democratic use of superdelegates in 2007/8 and now again in 2015/16 completely contradicts her talk about voting rights.

    The question:

    Does she seriously not have the slightest cognition to stir the obvious dissonance? Or is she completely aware of the total contradiction between her actions and her words?

  119. 119
    SFAW says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    It’s a perfect encapsulation of Hillary’s nastier supporters on this blog: It’s simultaneously insulting with the expectation of servitude.

    No, it’s a perfect encapsulation of someone calling you on your all-too-frequent bullshit. And, true to form, you still refuse to answer. Just as you’ve done for better persons than I.

    Servitude? You’re almost as funny as the BundyFanFic tweets. Keep it up, clown.

  120. 120
    chopper says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    so the answer is ‘yeah, i made that shit up’.

  121. 121
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Hillary’s a servant of money:

    “Hillary Clinton invoked 9/11 to defend her ties to Wall Street. What?”

    Pay attention now.

  122. 122
    chopper says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    oh, i’m paying attention all right. my attention is focused on you furiously dodging the question.

  123. 123
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Again:

    Hillary’s a servant of money:

    “Hillary Clinton Invokes 9/11 for the 2nd Time in Defending Wall Street Ties Against Critics.”

    The first time it was sleazy.

    The second time was craven.

  124. 124
    chopper says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    still not answering the question.

    which at this point is basically an admission that your statement “hilz thinks the bankers should be unregulated” is completely made up.

  125. 125
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Hillary has _explicitly_ rejected demands to regulate and break up the largest banks.

    Clintonian redefinition of what ‘is’ ‘is’ doesn’t change the fact:

    Hillary is a servant of money.

  126. 126
    SFAW says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    Again:

    still not answering any questions

    Again:

    Intellectually dishonest

    Again:

    Clueless clown who has a “loose” command of his “facts”

  127. 127
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Again:

    Hillary is a servant of money.

    “Clinton dismisses reinstating Glass-Steagall.”

    Republicans appreciate many of her positions, but her servitude to Money has Corporate interests really, _really_ excited.

  128. 128
    SFAW says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    Again;
    You’re a shill for Reinhold Priebus

  129. 129
    chopper says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    so now “not supporting breaking up the biggest banks” means “not for any regulations”?

    i’m with SAFW. you’re a clown. keep moving those goalposts, clown.

  130. 130
    SFAW says:

    @chopper:
    It’s also known as the “Look! Over there! No, not there! OVER THERE!” ploy

  131. 131
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Again:

    Hillary’s Republican leadership aside, it’s her slew of right-wing policies that really offend me: Death penalty support, horrific trade pact support, a contempt for College educations for the poors … it’s a very long list.

    I understand that she’s nominally a “D”, and that Club Membership is seen by many Dems as being more important than supporting the progressive principles strongly supported by large majorities in the Democratic Party.

    But speaking as someone who’s a more loyal Democratic Party voter than Hillary, her supporters expectation of _servility_ to another right-wing Corporate Dem is sickening.

    I’ve only myself to blame, because, unlike Hillary, I’ve always voted for the Democratic candidate.

    Corporate Dems take me for granted.

  132. 132
    SFAW says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    Again:

    answer the question.

    And you keep using the term “right-wing” – it’s clear you don’t quite understand the meaning of the term, outside of “not Bernie”

    And you keep saying you’re more loyal, but that’s obviously bullshit.

    And the only one who expects servility is your boss, Reinhold Priebus.

    Again:

    Answer the question

    Yeah, I know it’s fruitless to ask. You have yet to answer any questions from anyone, because that’s not what Reince pays you for. But good misdirection, calling others “Corporate.” Karl would be happy to see it.

    Again:

    Answer the question.

    ETA: Oh, and you forgot Hillary’s support for slavery, debtor’s prisons, and summary execution for dissenters. Of course, her support for those things is about as real as any other bullshit claim of yours.

  133. 133
    Thoughtful Today says:

    heh

    Some Hillary supporters on Balloon-Juice think Bernie supporters are their servants, you can usually ferret out Clinton supporters by their expectation that someone serve them,

    Sorry, SFAW, chopper, I’m not your puppet.

    You’re confusing with a Corporate Dems who’s strings are pulled by Big Money.
    ——————–

    To be clear:

    “Right-wing” is how I define a set of principles: Death penalty support, trade pacts with slavers and dictatorships, contempt for universal health care and free University educations, you know, Hillary’s right-wing policies.

  134. 134
    SFAW says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    Sorry, SFAW, chopper, I’m not your puppet.

    Oh, we don’t think your a puppet, you poor little thing. We just think you’re an intellectually dishonest fool who is on Reince’s payroll.

    You keep dancing around any direct interaction, as long as you can get your infinitely ridiculous talking points out. No rational person responds to questions like those you’ve been asked by saying they’re not a puppet.

    You’re right-wing “definitions” are laughable. “Give free ponies for everyone, or you’re a right-winger!”

    As TBogg would say: “Grow the fuck up”

    [“Ooooh, Mommy, he’s trying to make me do something!! Waaahhh! I’m not his puppet! Waaahh!”]

    Oh, and it’s pretty clear that you’ll vote for Trump or Cruz, given the chance.

  135. 135
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Again:

    “Right-wing” is how I define a very specific set of principles and policies such as:

    Death penalty support, trade pacts with slavers and dictatorships, contempt for universal health care and contempt for free University educations.

    You know, Hillary’s right-wing policies.

  136. 136
    SFAW says:

    Repeating a lie don’t make it so, child.

    And, just so we’re clear: Bernie’s NRA-supporting policies make him a right-winger. Too bad for you.

    I know, I know, it’s only the bogus claims that YOU make that matter, not the ACTUAL positions which you ignore.

    Again:
    Bernie’s obeisance to the NRA make him a right-winger.
    NOW who will you vote for? The right-winger from Vermont? Or the centrist former SecState?

  137. 137
    chopper says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    Hillary’s Republican leadership aside, it’s her slew of right-wing policies that really offend me:

    if that’s what truly offends you then you should have no problem admitting that you made up a bullshit claim.

    hyperbole doesn’t suit you well, son. the sooner you realize that the better.

  138. 138
    chopper says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    Sorry, SFAW, chopper, I’m not your puppet.

    of course not. you’re a clown, not a puppet. totally different type of childish entertainment.

  139. 139
    SFAW says:

    @chopper:

    hyperbole doesn’t suit you well, son.

    It’s all he knows. Well, that and lying.

  140. 140
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Yes.

    Bernie’s to the right of Hillary on guns. You could even accuse him of Clintonian triangulation on guns.

    Hillary’s far to the right of Bernie on everything else: Trade, environment, labor, incarceration, war, consumer protections, banking regulations, privacy, surveillance, health care, education, the death penalty… take your pick.

    Bernie’s lefty leadership also beat Hillary on lgbt protections, Keystone XL rejection, and TPP rejection.

    Bernie’s foreign policy prescriptions have been superior to Hillary’s as well.

    Hillary voted for the Iraq War disaster, he voted against it and warned it could lead to chaos. The Iraq War crime lead to chaos that degenerated into Daesh/isil/isis that’s now spilled into other countries.

  141. 141
    SFAW says:

    @chopper:

    Hey, you might know: re: Bernie’s “leadership”

    How many of his bills have made it through the Senate?

    I’d ask moron, but he wouldn’t know truth if it bit him in the ass.
    Well, actually, no, I wouldn’t ask him.

  142. 142
    chopper says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    Bernie’s to the right of Hillary on guns.

    which means, using TT’s patented hyperbole machine, that OMG bernie wants to see people shot in the face. it’s science.

  143. 143
    SFAW says:

    @chopper:

    I like the way you parsed that out. I’m envious.

  144. 144
    Thoughtful Today says:

    It’s true, if I could have a ‘pony’ it would be a PRESIDENT that leads with values I share.

    Hillary doesn’t share my values on all of the issues listed above and more. She won’t be a leader on a disturbingly growing list of issues and policies that I know are important and possible.

    But as I told Republican friends over Christmas: Hillary is the best Republican leader in the country.

    I still want a pony.

  145. 145
    chopper says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    i’d say you could make yourself see a pony if you just hit yourself on the head with a brick a few times, but it seems to me you’ve already done that.

    i’d suggest taking LSD, but again, that seems already in your wheelhouse.

  146. 146
    Thoughtful Today says:

    heh

    Hillary supporter to Bernie supporter: “hit yourself on the head with a brick a few time”.

    Healthcare is another core value that splits the Democratic Party. Many Democratic Party members want Universal Healthcare (Medicare for Everyone, Single Payer, pick your flavor). Hillary won’t be a leader for those plans.

    Corporate insurance was whitewashed as the ‘new liberal’ plan, Corporations will reap billions in profits, millions will continue to go without healthcare, and thousands of politicians will reap Corporte insurers’ campaign ‘contributions’.

    Neoliberalism. The bugs are it’s features.

  147. 147
    SFAW says:

    @chopper:

    A few thoughts re: Clueless Today
    1) You’ve probably noticed this – I think you pointed it out – but he keeps moving the goalposts and changing his alleged criteria for correct-thinking policies
    2) Although I was only semi-serious early on re: him taking his direction from Reince, I had a mini-epiphany (a day late, literally): Clueless Today is actually a Rethug troll. Were he TRULY a Bernie supporter, he would not be going out of his way to antagonize every non-Bernbot that he can find, as often as possible, while making up as much shit as he can.

    I am chagrined that it took me so long to figure that one out. I used to be reasonably quick on the pickup of a Rethug sockpuppet. I let his Naderite bullshit – which I hate with a passion – cloud my judgment.

    At least Racist to Rise was honest about being a Rethug. (Not that I miss him, of course.) He may have been lying to himself re: Jeb!’s surge, etc., but at least he didn’t pretend to be a Dem.

  148. 148
    chopper says:

    @Thoughtful Today:

    I’m voting for Bernie, actually. in the primary at least.

    you, on the other hand, are always a clown.

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