Our long national nightmare is over:
Late Friday night, an official in the Sanders campaign said that its access to the voter file would be restored by Saturday morning. Officials at the committee could not be reached for comment.
I didn’t FP this earlier when I talked about it, but in the comments in the earlier thread I was wrong about the extent to which the Sanders campaign staff had muddled in the files, so I need to correct that and acknowledge my error.
*****
On a totally unrelated note, I was very seriously going to put up an open thread about two hours ago talking about how I had lost interest in meat lately, and I logged in to WP and saw Adam was writing a post titled “MEAT.” I decided against writing the post lest our hall monitors in the comments get the vapors.
But I have lost interest in meat lately and I have no idea why. The last couple of times I’ve been to the grocery I walk by the meat counters and just nothing looks appetizing. I’ve basically been living on salads and fruit salads and other stuff. Tonight I made sliced up some zucchini, sweet onions, and mushrooms with a little garlic and olive oil, shredded some parm on top, and ate a sliced tomato and a half an avocado and that was dinner. I’m not sure if it is just a phase, but it is weird. I’ll roll with it for now. Not like I have any choice, anyway. If something is unappetizing, why force yourself to eat it?
redshirt
Join the Vegetarian side, Cole.
It is your destiny,
Adam L Silverman
It happens. Usually happens to me when it gets real hot. I want chilled fruits. That said: You can’t have any pudding if you don’t eat your meat!
gwangung
Frankly, giving access back is the correct thing; I don’t think a continued bar was ever in the cards. But there was some real unethnical things done by the Sanders campaign (surprisingly so) and a temporary bar was appropriate….I certainly could have lived with one that lasted through the weekend.
BillinGlendaleCA
@redshirt: I think Cole got his appetite for meat back with your comment.
@John Cole: Just be careful to get enough protein, I had a co-worker that was a vegan and her doc told her she wasn’t getting enough in her diet; she always looked very sickly.
NotMax
Confirmation that the pod people have arrived.
;)
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: How can you have any pudding if you don’t eat your meat?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Adam L Silverman: We don’t need no education…
When I was in college we had two water polo players who lived 2 floors below us(10 story dorm) and would get up at 6am for practice and blast ‘Another Brick in the Wall, part 2’. It was mildly annoying for me since I really had to be up at 7am for an 8am Chem class; but pissed my roommate off to no end since he prided himself in his laziness and hence scheduled all his classes in the late morning or afternoon.
Kropadope
@gwangung:
Well, it seems like the campaign leadership dealt with it pretty firmly and decisively as soon as they found it. If reporting the inappropriate access and firing the people who abused it isn’t the appropriate response by the Sanders campaign, I don’t know what is.
NotMax
@Omnes Omnibus
Where’s My Puddin’?
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: And where do you disagree with gwangung? Also, just to preempt, what did HRC do wrong here?
redshirt
I’d like to point out that Cole’s sudden introspection actually improved matters.
If only he can keep it up.
mclaren
Ha! A REAL man not only eats meat…he hunts it down on the hoof and rips open its jugular with his bare teeth while drinking the animal’s hot smoking blood.
And conservatives don’t bother with ruminants. They eat Long Pig. Raw.
gwangung
@Kropadope: It appears to me that they ultimately did the right thing, but got there in fits and starts. I don’t think the threat to sue was appropriate, and the full scope of the theft was not immediately revealed (there’ve been a report that Sanders heard about the initial theft from the Democratic National Committee, not from his staff).
That doesn’t make him and his organization look good.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: I disagree with gwagngung that a temporary bar was appropriate. The issue was addressed before the bar occurred. And what does HRC have to do with this, you tool?
Omnes Omnibus
@NotMax: That is just too weird.
NotMax
@Omnes Omnibus
Only clip I could readily think of that mixed pudding and politics.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Kropadope: So if there’s no sanctions for breaking the rules, why follow the rules?
frosty aka Bro Shotgun etc etc
John Cole, this blog has the most interesting and eclectic posts of any of the ones I read. Thanks for this. Keeps me coming back.
gwangung
@Kropadope:
Actually, I didn’t get that sense. And there should be at least one more vacancy on the Sanders staff.
That, too…
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Okay, so one campaign improperly accesses another campaigns data and you don’t think that temporarily halting that campaigns access is appropriate? What do you think should have been done?
WRT the HRC comment, I will admit that you were going to again explain that you will vote for someone else no matter what. My apologies if that wasn’t coming soon.
Kropadope
@gwangung: They fired people Thursday for inappropriately accessing the Clinton data. The ban hammer came down Friday.
@BillinGlendaleCA: Why take responsibility for something if it merely guarantees you’re gonna be punished for it?
lamh36
I’m mostly a chicken and fish eater. Occasionally, when my iron is low, I have a craving for a hamburger. Mostly though, I’m gonna be eating chicken, and being in and from NOLA, the occasional seafood dish.
When I was in DFW and seafood was in short supply, I did eat more red meat than chicken.
I tried years ago to go vegetarian, but I have only ever been able to last a week or so…usually until my granny B (RIP) would cook a big Sunday dinner
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: No, but you did give me good cause to point out the corrupting influence I think she’s having on Democratic party culture and how it’s just OK Hillary’s brownshirts to bully people who don’t agree with them online.
Mike G
I like meat in its final form, but looking at industrial processed meat under the sickly lights in the grocery store is off-putting.
Anyone else see ProPublica’s investigation of the Red Cross? Another institution being looted and run into the ground by arrogant and incompetent MBA culture —
https://www.propublica.org/article/the-corporate-takeover-of-the-red-cross
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Brownshirts? Explain. You just called Hillary supporters Nazis.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: Only the ones like you. And I mostly just meant you, cacti, and corner stone.
Adam L Silverman
@NotMax: Here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js_F97Kpe_s
BillinGlendaleCA
@Kropadope: It could serve to lessen the punishment.
lamh36
speaking of seafood, I’m sitting here finally watching the Running Wild episode with President Obama and Bear prepared this salmon that was left over by some bear for the President.
But in the behind the scenes segments, he did mention that the President’s “taster” had to have a go at anything POTUS was gonna eat, even this bear ravaged salmon carcass he allegedly “just found along the pathway”
gwangung
@Kropadope: I’m only aware of the one person gone, not four. And they’ve certainly used that information in their campaign.
Stop making excuses (and those excuses are LAME). The campaign did wrong; there should be a price to be paid if you did something wrong. It makes you look like the Clinton people you’re criticizing.
You are in no position to be throwing around insults like “brownshirts.”
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Please tell me how I am a brown shirt.
lamh36
@lamh36: but really I don’t think the “taster” had a go at it.
BTW, ICYMI:Running Wild with POTUS the entire episode is online now
Matt McIrvin
Is everyone still upset that the stories are mostly about Republicans?
redshirt
@lamh36: Of course he did. Obviously, the President is not going to risk his life on a TV show.
That said, the simulation was excellent. I love BHO.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: Well, on behalf of a political organization that is actively trying to undermine democratic processes, you’re deliberately creating a hostile environment in a public forum for those who disagree with you.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: To whom are you speaking?
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: Missed the reply button, but I think you know it’s you. Context, my friend, context. Don’t be dense.
Bobby Thomson
@Kropadope: nonviolent disagreement is JUST like Krystallnacht.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Kropadope:
I really don’t think Omnes is a Republican.
Kropadope
@Bobby Thomson: We have years for this to escalate, don’t worry. I’m pretty sure, even in the original version, the bullying and defamation came first. They also first came for the socialists, if I remember the quote correctly.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Just checking. Arguing with you is creating a hostile environment and being brown shirtish? I think your view is wrong. How should I sugarcoat it?
lamh36
Alright, it’s too late at night and you guys are too much for me…soo I’m gonna bid you adieu…
Omnes Omnibus
@BillinGlendaleCA: Not as far as I know.*
*It is possible that I sleepwalk and advocate GOP positions. I just rather doubt it.
NotMax
@Adam L. Silverman
Mark Hamill’s best role.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Kropadope: So what you’re saying is that it’s OK for someone, or their organization, to harm another, or their organization, and have no sanctions against them; as long as they say ‘My Bad’?
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: You brought up something not germane to my comment in any way whatsoever in order to help build/sustain a false narrative about me. I didn’t say anything about HRC, but you’re trying to paint me as someone monomaniacally opposed to Clinton, thus “otherizing” me.
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: Umm, blush. Thank you for the thoughts.
Kropadope
@BillinGlendaleCA: What I’m saying is to hold the responsible parties responsible and not punish those who acted in good faith. This isn’t the first thing the DNC has done to undermine Sanders. They’re trying to decide the primary before the voting begins and it’s truly a frightening thing to see.
@BillinGlendaleCA:
With the Clinton wing of the Democrats in charge, both sides ACTUALLY do it.
Ruckus
If something is unappetizing, why force yourself to eat it?
If your ability to smell or taste almost anything is gone, you still have to eat proper nourishment. Even though you really only want to eat the very few things you can taste, most of which aren’t all that good for you.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Let me ask you something: Are you generally opposed to HRC becoming president or not?
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m severely conflicted about the idea.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: A lot of us are not. We see the Dem nominee vs. the GOP nominee. HRC is the 2:1 fav. right now. That is the focus.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Kropadope: It’s important for an organization and it’s leader to have institutional control over that organization and to take responsibility for those in it’s employ.
IOW, in this case Bernie fucked up. He hired these folk and put them in a position of trust, he and his campaign should be sanctioned in some form.
eemom
@redshirt: @Kropadope:
Stop trolling good men, you preening fools.
/mama bear
Kropadope
@eemom: So, someone replies to me with a completely irrelevant comment designed specifically to provoke a fight and I’m the one trolling. Ooooooohhhhhkaaaaayyyy.
Party uber alles, folks. Party uber alles.
Unabogie
The idea that Bernie is the victim here is just bizarre. If HRC had stolen Bernie’s data and the DNC did nothing in response, what would the reaction be?
Kropadope
@Unabogie: I think the context would matter, just as I’m saying it does here.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Vote for whoever you want. The decent people know what matters. Make your own decisions.
Unabogie
PS, John, go vegan. You love animals, so stop hurting them when it’s perfectly doable to eat and be healthy without it.
BillinGlendaleCA
Looks like from the local news the President is leaving CA and headed on his vacation in his fake birthplace at a cost of Billions and Billions of dollars*.
*Cost estimate provided by right wing radio.
Unabogie
@Kropadope: how so? What would your reaction be?
Kropadope
@Omnes OmnibusWhy do you keep replying to me with comments that literally have no relation to what I’m saying? Did you have a stroke? Should we call the hospital?
Kropadope
@Unabogie: If she already terminated/disciplined the offenders and denounced their actions, I would be saying it was a giant nothingburger, as I am now.
2liberal
re: meat for cole. Just add ketchup, you’ll get thru this thing.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: I was being polite. I’ll stop now. Fuck you.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus:
What definition of “polite” are you working with?
Brachiator
You don’t. You just have to make sure that your choices still satisfy your nutritional requirements.
Unabogie
@Kropadope: not buying it for a second.
Kropadope
@Unabogie: Why? I’ve defended Hillary in past circumstances. I would say most notably on Benghazi. I’m not the one here trying to make this about Hillary and Omnes pulls this rude BS every time I run into him/her.
Ripley
Wow. To avoid being sociopathic, maybe?
Jewish Steel
That’s how it went down for me. Five years, no meat. Don’t miss it a bit.
Goblue72
@Omnes Omnibus: Go fuck yourself. You can criticize whether a person’s voting choice (or abstention) is or is not the best strategic choice for them to make in the context of the things they say they care about. But to suggest their aren’t decent because they might not vote for somebody and instead just opt out? At that point, you’re the asshole.
Goblue72
@Unabogie: What did Bernue do when Hillary was being attacked over her totally inappropriate and stupid use of personal emails? He could have let her continue to take incoming fire from the GOP and just stay out of the way. Instead, during prime debate, he killed the controversy for her. So much so it made it into the spin cycle zeitgeist, meriting an SNL skit with Larry David.
I know what the Sanders campaign would do if the tables were turned. Because they already did when they were.
Villago Delenda Est
Here’s the thing about “databasegate”: It’s been simmering for two months. DWS gets the itch for green room time and goes nuts on the Leslie Show. Bernie fired his head IT guy over this, and apologized. DWS gives the morans of the MSM one of their most favorite narratives, “Democrats in Disarray” on a fucking silver platter.
DWS has to go. Period. She’s suffering from McCain disease…her ambition has mugged her integrity, if she ever had any, and is holding it hostage. Hilz probably won’t do anything about this that hasn’t already been done (the Bern campaign has access again) but the DNC fucked up here, both with the database issue itself and today’s media explosion over it. Way to give aid and comfort to the Rethugs, DWS. You stupid bint.
BR
I just want to mention something I don’t think many have mentioned — NGP VAN is a really crappy piece of software and likely has dozens of bugs and holes like the one the Sanders folks came across. The NGP VAN folks did some serious CYA in the news stories, claiming it was a “patch” that opened up a hole “temporarily”. Not likely — the bug has probably been there for ages and someone stumbled across it now but I doubt it was as a result of intentionally trying to hack NGP VAN.
Nobody seems to have commented on how bad NGP VAN is and how that is probably the bigger issue here.
Mike J
@BR: This is like saying that if you haven’t replaced your house’s front door with a bank vault, you deserve to be ripped off.
In theory, everybody using the database is supposed to be at least nominally a Democrat (even if they haven’t been as strict about it as some would prefer.)
Mike J
@Mike J: Or in other words, please don’t argue that Hilary’s skirt was too short, so she deserved what she got.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Mike J: Also they didn’t just notice that the door was open, they were probing to see if it was open.
BR
@Mike J:
Not really. This isn’t the first time. I don’t think it’s even just the tenth time. NGP VAN has been crappy for ages. If the DNC wants to stick with (and give a monopoly to) a vendor that does such a lousy job, they shouldn’t act so shocked when things like this happen with that crappy software.
And I say this as someone who doesn’t really care about the primaries going on right now and don’t particularly care for either Clinton or Sanders but know I will have to eventually vote for one of them.
David Koch
Just shows that DWS is soft on crime.
BR
@BillinGlendaleCA:
That’s the part I’m specifically saying I *don’t* believe. The CYA coming from NGP VAN and the DNC makes it sound like the only way it was possible to discover this flaw was for the Sanders campaign to have been doing a pentest, systematically and maliciously trying to hack the software to steal information. Not likely — they more likely just came across some existing bug that was similar to lots of other bugs that have been in the software before.
BillinGlendaleCA
@BR: Any links for your belief? Any documentation about the software that you’re basing your opinion on?
BR
@BillinGlendaleCA:
No, just personal experience having used NGP VAN (and that of a friend who worked in Dem politics for many years) and as someone who has written lots of software. NGP VAN is lousy software. It used to be so bad that you had to have someone trained just to know how to deal with its quirks. It’s gotten a better frontend in recent years, though I get the sense that they’ve just papered over the bugs underneath.
There was a politico article today with a tiny bit of detail about these issues with it, and I’m sure others have written more on the subject in the past.
eemom
@Goblue72:
No. In the batshit crazy world we’re living in, anybody who “opts out” and does not vote for the Democratic candidate, whoever it is, is NOT decent, and IS an asshole.
So stop calling yourself “Goblue”, asshole.
Cacti
@Omnes Omnibus:
You disagree with Kropadope.
That’s just one step away from breaking out the Zyklon B.
David Koch
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@eemom:
He is an asshole, but the name is a reference to his alma mater.
David Koch
David Koch
magurakurin
@Omnes Omnibus:
nothing.
magurakurin
@Kropadope:
Is this for real, or is it a put on? I honestly can’t fucking tell anymore.
BillinGlendaleCA
@eemom:
Can’t argue with this; in fact people who don’t were either too young to remember recent history(Y2K), or are simply obtuse.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@BillinGlendaleCA: Or their self image is tied up in being both right and in the misunderstood minority. Basically, Kropadope isn’t much different than the guy who starts complaining that his favorite band are a bunch of sellouts as soon as they become popular.
Applejinx
YAY! Now we can get on with it. Also, yay! Democrats are all pretty fucking hardcore this time around!
Both the Sanders and the Clinton campaigns have truly internalized the ‘primary is the real election’ concept. This is INTENSE. DWS was ready to suspend democracy to get her way, and thank goodness Hillary is as smart as I thought she was. It must have been unreal in the braintrusts of these campaigns over the last 24 hours.
I absolutely support the way both campaigns are handling it given that it’s reached this outcome.
One irreplacable day of campaigning and roughly $600,000 of penalty for a few seriously nutball staffers seems not out of line for punishment, because it also really amps up the ‘establishment trying to stifle’ narrative.
I absolutely think the staffers got nuts and were trying to do many things at once: explore, document AND grab as much info as they could as fast as they could in the brief time the walls were down. It was right to fire them (unsure who was responsible for which intrusion: I’ve seen the records and doubtless will be shown them again and again, and it seems one particular guy was creating accounts: the one who got fired?)
The Bernie campaign’s fierce will to win is totally reflected in how the staffers tried for any possible advantage when the data breach re-happened. The Clinton campaign’s fierce will to win is totally reflected in DWS’s glee over taking the keys to the Bernie campaign and, at first, thinking she could get away with not even letting Bernie have them back: as if you could disenfranchise an entire rival movement of people because you knew who to talk to at a database company and had a pretext for removing their voter data.
Good thing there will be an independent investigation of that database company. Maybe now they’ll stop dropping the barrier and letting ‘other campaigns’ (hah!) poke around in Bernie data. You know, campaigns where their people do things like run the database company, whose job it is to know the status of the ‘firewall’ and how it’s implemented. Campaigns that know just how important winning is, and are ready to put up a BRUTAL fight to make winning happen.
Bring it. This is the real election, both Democrats are ready to stomp all over whichever Republican gets run.
I’d like to see some edge in the debate (not sure if I can attend but I might be able to catch the aftermath, at my local field office) but I would also like to see Bernie and Hillary smiling like apex predators at each other and making fake-nice, but with some really hilarious barbs. They ARE fighting, but it’s possible to do that and still show respect.
Again, I have great respect for the way the Clinton camp has handled this. They are a tough, tough adversary. If they do manage to win the primary it’ll be through fighting smart, ruthlessly and effectively with every weapon at their disposal, and they’re not going to let the Republicans put one over on them.
And if we win and Bernie’s the nominee: same deal. We now have more weapons, because politics is a tough game and if you don’t want a ‘the establishment hates them, but the people prevail!’ narrative then don’t procedurally shut down an entire campaign and threaten not to let it come back. That narrative is everywhere, now, and social media’s all over it: people on the whole believe it.
Bernie deserved the penalty. Fair’s fair, big mistake and way too greedy on the behalf of the Bernie staffers: Hillary deserves the resulting narrative, big mistake plus since when is the DNC chair one of her staffers? Now we fight it out again, and first blood’s most emphatically been shed, and neither side are flinching.
Exciting times :)
Mike J
@BR:
I’ve used precursors to the current system, and they were truly horrid. I’ve not used the current system, but from what I’m told, it’s much better, even if still quirky.
raven
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym: Fuck Michigan and fuck him!
Amir Khalid
@Applejinx:
Hillary’s campaign is the injured party in this. How does she deserve a narrative that makes her look bad?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Amir Khalid: I didn’t get that impression, maybe I missed something.
ETA: I agree with what you’re saying, but I’m not sure that Applejinx said anything different.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Mike J: Speaking as a generalist, front ends for any kind of dbms leave alot to be desired; quirky would be a compliment.
ETA: Though my experience is dated, clunky is more common.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
What the fuck is a SNOWMELT BOILER Monitor Point Open alarm? This isn’t even on my list of possible alarms, and I have no idea whether it just means that the boiler is running to melt some snow, or if there really is a problem. Fortunately, it’s in the building I’m at, so I was able to go take a look at the loading dock area, where the alarm came from, and didn’t see any sort of problems. I didn’t see anything that resembled what I imagine a snowmelt boiler to look like.
I’m not going to call a facilities guy at 4am over this; I hope that’s not a fuck up on my part.
raven
@BillinGlendaleCA: Man, This Old House just started on a place in the Silver Lake. When I think about what our master suite cost compared to California, WOW! (they don’t give prices but it’s incredible to see the permitting and logistical challenges.)
David Koch
There’s something really wrong with these people.
BillinGlendaleCA
@raven: In our old house we extended our patio about 2 feet and put in a spa pad with electrical(220). I went back and forth with the lady in the planning dept.(Glendale). I finally got to the point where I said, we’re wasting your time and mine(my second visit), you draw what you want. She sketched in some cross supports and stamped it approved. Gawd, what a nightmare.
ETA: Of course, Silverlake(btw which was drained the last time we drove by) is LA city.
magurakurin
@Applejinx: So, I’m guessing last night’s narrative is no longer operational? You guys get your marching orders quickly
You, last night
That’s you, accusing the Clinton campaign of stealing data from Sanders. But I guess today it’s just bygones.
You’re so full of shit.
Amir Khalid
@David Koch:
Bernie 2016 is starting to look like it’s not quite ready for prime time. While I consider Hillary a better candidate than Bernie in general, I was expecting his organisation to be more competent than this.
BillinGlendaleCA
@David Koch: @magurakurin: We’re just one happy family.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Amir Khalid: Organizational problems such as over-zealous subordinates can cause serious political problems if you occupy the big chair in the oval.
raven
@BillinGlendaleCA: Sounded like a lot of the issues were California code. We’re in a historic district but, in reality, I’m glad they do what they do because the builders would trash the neighborhood if they could.
Applejinx
@Amir Khalid: It cost Bernie a totally unreplaceable day and estimated $600K in lost fundraising plus the risk of never getting to continue as a campaign at all, and Hillary’s the injured party? Nice planet you’re on but the atmosphere appears to be laughing gas ;)
I obviously can’t speak for all Bernistas but I consider all that a valid penalty for important staffers running amok, so cranked up to win that they make crazy judgement calls only to get immediately fired by the real brains of the campaign. I think it’s fair. Costly as hell, but fair.
What is also fair is that we get to tease Hillary, from NOW ON, about her own side’s crazy lust to win. Both campaigns are incredibly fired up and that’s good. In Bernie’s case, he’s always gotta keep an eye on staffers who will look over enemy data when it’s literally left unlocked, staffers who are sharp and know how to work the systems. No feckless hippies, these. We’re absolutely on top of this stuff, even to a fault.
In Hillary’s case it’s, ha ha, wow what a fighter! Strong strong woman. Her whole campaign is tough but mostly fair! Apart from that whole calling off the election thing.
Her people were prepared to basically disband the opposition, and all the voters they represent. Like Trump: ‘you’re fired!’. Over greedy staffers exploiting a fault likely put in place to spy on THEM and already used for that purpose: why have a firewall if you’re going to periodically bring it down in a way that’s obvious to users?
They did use procedural methods to temporarily call off the OPPOSITION’S campaign against their will. Show me one U.S. law that says if a staffer does even wilful data intrusion, you call off the campaign and send their voters home (or reassign them to the candidate you like). You’ll find it next to the law that says if a dumb kid shoplifts, you shoot them in the head with a gun along with whatever passersby are available…
Now, if you think a narrative saying that Hil’s people tried to effectively call off the primary and declare her the winner is not fair, oh well. She did, unless you’re really REALLY impressed with O’Malley as an opponent. It didn’t last because Hillary is thankfully a lot smarter than many forum posters and saw the problem, even if it was only in political terms: I think she’d have gone along with it except that it really would have started a revolution.
But get used to the phrase ‘fair, except for that whole calling off the election thing’. We used to joke about that coming from Republicans, but for a day, it was Hillary’s people trying the idea out.
Seriously. If a top Bernie staffer KILLED a man in Reno just to watch him die, and got arrested and locked up and tried for murder, that would not be sensible grounds for calling off the campaign, yet abusing the notoriously broken NGP-VAN software rates a collective political death penalty and that’s just fine?
amk
@Applejinx:
‘that whole calling off the election thing’.
When did Hillary or her campaign do that? Do you have anything to support that claim?
BillinGlendaleCA
@raven: Yup, developers would just tear the shit down. Has happened all the time, though sometimes there isn’t much choice if the original property is too far gone. There’s an interesting subdivision just south of Silverlake where they had an old house(it’s still there) and the estate that was sold to developers. They built a private neighborhood with houses whose architecture would be more suited to the OC. I noticed it on Google Earth because the street were freshly paved.
Applejinx
So yeah: cease fire, as Fearless Blogleader says.
Sanders people had better be ready to get teased about loose cannon staffers and our general moblike enthusiasm: marching orders? Hah. We’re nothing like that centralized. Grassroots is far from centralized, what are we, Breitbart?
Clinton people had better like the sound of ‘yeah, except for that calling off the election thing’. You bought it, you wear it. We can give you the ‘crazy staffer overreach’ part, the key guy’s fired and that sends a message not to do it ever again. Now let’s have no more of this ‘calling off the (primary) election, taking the keys to the database away, and appointing Hillary king’ business. This is America, for pete’s sake.
We’re not stupid: let’s not treat each other like we’re stupid.
magurakurin
@Applejinx: Like I thought, everything you were saying last night is down the memory hole. Okay. But if you pull the big D lever in November, it’s all good. Cheers, mate.
Robert Sneddon
@BR: What else is available on the market to replace the VAN software?
I rather get the impression it’s the sort of software project that has continuously changing requirements as state election laws and party structures change year on year plus the demands on what it needs to do also change (mobile phones, for example or the use of social media handles by people). That’s a developer’s nightmare and “works well enough most of the time” and “we patch what we can, here’s a workaround until the next release” is usually the best anyone can do (BTDT got the late night call just before Xmas to fix shit NOW).
One thing that does seem to have worked was the access auditing system…
I don’t see a problem with barring the Sanders campaign from the system for a day or so — if they could access firewalled Clinton campaign data due to a bug it’s possible they could also get at the auditing trail and mess with it. The database is effectively a crime scene and you don’t let suspects wander around there even if they’re escorted, not until the place has been thoroughly swept and everything recorded.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Robert Sneddon:
There’s some basic auditing in the back end, transaction logs.
David Koch
@Amir Khalid: You mean the campaign run by a guy who runs a comic book store isn’t professional?
I’m shocked!
I’m shocked!
BillinGlendaleCA
@David Koch: Hmmm, picture preview seems to work☺, maybe it’s the hover zoom.
bemused
@Mike G:
I don’t think it’s the store lighting. I’ve thought for quite awhile that meat and chicken is just not tasting like it used to, like the flavor has been disappearing. I try to find meat and chicken that are from more “organic” or “naturally” raised sources. The chain supermarkets have added a few more options. I’d shop for meat and chicken at whole food type markets more often but the cost is higher. Buying from local farmers is another option if available. I don’t think it’s that my taste buds are older either because when talking food with people, I’ve heard them voice the similar complaints.
Applejinx
@magurakurin: Let’s be clear: I still think the Clinton campaign was looking at Bernie data during previous security lapses, engineered by Clinton people running the NGP-VAN system. In October, like the Bernie staffer said and then retracted. I don’t know if we’ll ever be able to prove it when they own the database company and all the computers used for the intrusion and control all the logs. That’s okay. I said that’s what I thought had happened, and I still think that.
That’s politics. If we don’t face that from Clinton we certainly shall from Republicans. Clinton people control NGP-VAN, Republican people control Diebold. It’s just part of the fabric of the system at this point.
I have every intention of pulling the D lever in November, and it was never unredeemably off the table to do so for Hillary should she win a REAL fight, and by that I mean not too heavily fixed. It would’ve been a very different story if they’d continued to hold Bernie’s data hostage at roughly $600,000 a day and incalculable damage in lost campaigning time, but Hil put a stop to that: I like her judgement there.
It wasn’t really against her interests to intercede. What I’d really like to see is a de-partisaning of the DNC, that’s become untenable, but Hillary’s part in all this, I’m cool with. That includes the possibility of spying on Bernie data in October. If she wins the primary she’ll be seeing it anyway, and seeing the trends doesn’t automatically mean she will be able to prevail.
We also can’t, with even the slightest veracity, behave like we’ve proven the Clinton campaign started it by dropping their firewall and snooping around in Bernie data. I think they did but we’ll never know. All we proved was the whole calling off democracy thing ;) and that was happily just a trial balloon, Hillary being way too smart to let her people try to win that way. It has to be a real primary, and so it shall.
raven
@BillinGlendaleCA: We are always amazed ay the houses theater down along the strand at Manhattan Beach. My sister inHawthorne kicks herself every time she thinks about the little house they had up from the beach. In the 70’s the South Bay was really struggling, no more.
Amir Khalid
@Applejinx:
Bernie’s people did that to their own campaign. The injured party in this matter is the campaign whose data they had unauthorised access to: Hillary’s. Do you not understand that?
Amir Khalid
@Applejinx:
What is your evidence for this claim?
Applejinx
@Amir Khalid: The ‘injured party’ is the campaign that gets to call off the other campaign unilaterally and tell the database company not to do business with the campaign that’s actually winning.
That’s some mighty feisty injury right there. How very crippled they must have felt, flipping that switch and sitting there, smiling, watching it stay off… perhaps, forever. Wouldn’t that be nice? How convenient.
Whatever. Cease fire, eh?
Amir Khalid
@Applejinx:
I guess you don’t understand that, then.
FarmerG
Just scrolled through that Meat! post. I think I’m going to be sick.
Satby
@Mike G: Red Cross has been corrupt for years. They have never managed to get their act together enough to get out from under a consent decree for how sloppily they responded to HIV in blood collection process, for over 20 years. The money they waste is breathtaking. And I was a disaster responder volunteer for them during Katrina, volunteered on Bloodmobiles for years, and finally worked in IT under contract for them. I won’t give them a dime, and haven’t for over 20 years. The problems with ARC are not recent.
PaulW
About the sudden disinterest in meat, it may be just disinterest in the same-old, that you’ve eaten the same type of burger meat or chicken meat or turkey meat or fish meat the same way over and over. there gets a point when a ham-and-cheese sandwich does not thrill, or a grilled steak just suddenly seems like a waste of time because you’ve done it so often, or the chicken done in brown gravy is just the same thing you’ve done every Thursday with soul-crushing repetition.
Diversifying your palette, finding new (if simple) recipes to serve meat as, may restore the balance. As long as you respect the need for grain-based foods, fruits, vegetables, and dairy based upon your dietary needs and non-allergic reactions.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Satby: Off the top of my head, I can only think of 2 ARC presidents, Bob Dole’s wife and the turtle’s wife.
BillinGlendaleCA
@PaulW: We also cook much healthier than we used to, but that stuff, ie lard, added flavor.
Satby
@BillinGlendaleCA: The ARC folks still recalled Libby Dole fondly. Don’t think they ever mentioned Yertle’s wife at all.
Sparrow
@Mike J: really? A rape analogy? FU.
JMG
John, follow your taste buds where they lead you. It’s my belief that even the most devoted carnivore’s palate benefits from a meatless week or two a year. It makes tastes of all kinds of food from meat to fruit more vivid.
As for this other nonsense, it looks like a minor blowup between two groups of overtired people, one of whom, DWS, is not very good at management to be as polite as I can. It’s six days before Christmas. Nobody but the kind of people like us who’re overinterested in politics gave it a thought, and today it’s over.
David Koch
Folks should realize the majority of Sanders’s supporters are not Democrats.
You read through their postings on twitter, facebook, blogs they love to tell people how they haven’t voted for a Democrat in decades. They’re naderites, greens, libertarians, peace & freedom party, socialists.
They come out of the woodwork every open cycle for Dean, Edwards or Sanders. Then they lose, claim they were railroaded by “the man” and declare they’re never vote again because of “the system”.
They’re not going to vote for Clinton. If they wouldn’t vote for Obummer, who they say is worse than bush, they’re not going to vote for Clinton.
Satby
@David Koch: Most of the Sanders supporters I personally know don’t vote at all, and have a kindergarten level of understanding about how our system of government works. And it is tedious to be lectured at by them. And to be called a Hilbot just for not being all in on Bernie. When my stated position is if a Mars bar gets the Dem nomination, the Mars bar gets my vote.
rmthunter
About losing interest in meat: I’ve noticed that in myself — not general categories, but specific things that I just stop eating. I haven’t eaten eggs in over a decade — I used to have scrambled eggs or an omelet every morning, and I just stopped; same with pork sausage and bacon. And lately I just stopped eating bananas, which I’ve been eating every day for years. No particular reason that I can think of.
The human mind is a strange and frightening place
rea
I have of late—but wherefore I know not—lost all my meat, forgone all custom of exercises, and indeed it goes so heavily with my disposition that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory; this most excellent canopy, the air—look you, this brave o’erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire—why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapors. What a piece of work is John!
Tripod
@Satby:
They certainly are blissfully unaware that the campaign optics they’ve created over this kerfuffle is monkey fucking football.
Rich Webb
Big thick steak? Pretty boring actually. A big bowl of salad with lots of different flavors and textures? Yum!
Meat’s great for flavoring, it adds the umami/savory note, although tomato paste or mushrooms can sometimes be substituted.
Some diced ham on top of the salad or a couple of ounces of pepperoni added to the starter mirepoix for a big pot of beans and greens? Oh yeah.
different-church-lady
@Applejinx: You know the thing that confuses me? The thing where an organization that Sanders isn’t even a fucking part of is obligated to share something with him.
Thoughtful Today
Erm, satby, you’re surely called a Hillbot because of insults like this:
“Most of the Sanders supporters I personally know don’t vote at all, and have a kindergarten level of understanding about how our system of government works.”
But don’t worry, you and David Koch will likely get to vote for College REPUBLICAN Hillary Clinton for our American President.
Clinton II will push right-wing policies* for the next 4 to 8 years and you can lecture everyone about it being ‘the lesser evil’.
* militarism, corporatism, low-wages, and abominable trade policies, for starters.
Applejinx
@different-church-lady: Well, yes. Contractually. They entered into a legal agreement with the Sanders campaign. Yes, they’re obligated to share his own data with him.
Blog posters. sigh. I’m glad both the major campaigns—likely ALL the Dem campaigns—have a clue and are thoroughly reality-based, because so many Americans all over the political spectrum seem to have a wildly creative interpretation of justice, society, and reality, which wouldn’t stand up in a court of law very well.
I guess we should be grateful they’re not all like that lady who opened fire on the shoplifter with her little handgun, but that’s definitely the vibe I get some days.
FlipYrWhig
Is there a Sanders supporter who isn’t a zealot, fantasist, and excuse-maker, and can someone send her over to the blog instead of this bag of dicks from the last two days? Kthxbai.
FlipYrWhig
@Applejinx: yes, in fact one such American thinks that the campaign that mucked around in another campaign’s data is the injured party and is suffering from a nefarious conspiracy in his head. Can you imagine?
Sparrow
@Satby: @David Koch: If we’re just going by anecdote, I’m a sanders supporter who has nearly always voted dem (with rare local exceptions) and 100% so in the last 10 years. I dislike Hillary but will vote for her if she’s the nominee. I only registered dem when forced to, but I am willing to consider that attitude a mistake given the realities of our system.
Of my friends who are Sanders supporters, most are not virulently anti-Hillary and are basically liberal dems. A fair number are indeed ‘non-traditional’ dem voters, ie former republicans who will not convert to Hillary voters. I can’t really see how that can be a surprise or somehow the fault of liberal dems like myself.
I do think its interesting that the BJ community is weighted towards Hillary, and I wonder why. Also the data showing Sanders as more competitive against the republican front runners is strangely ignored here.
Thoughtful Today
…
Clinton supporter FlipYrWhig: “Is there a Sanders supporter who isn’t a zealot, fantasist, and excuse-maker, and can someone send her over to the blog instead of this bag of dicks from the last two days? Kthxbai.”
If they sent over a dozen to replace an equal number of the hateful Clinton supporters spewing insults at Sanders’ supporters … you’d still have a disturbing number of hateful Clinton supporters spewing insults at Sanders’ supporters on this blog.
Matt McIrvin
@David Koch:
Sanders has close to 30% of Democratic primary support in the polls, so, about 10-15% of the country. The people you’re talking about simply don’t exist in those numbers. They’re maybe 3%, 4% of the US population at most. Nader got 2.7% of the popular vote in 2000, which was probably a high point for lefty not-voting-for-Democrats activity.
Most Sanders supporters are not these people. The Sanders supporters who make fifteen anti-Hillary posts on Facebook every day, some of them are.
magurakurin
@Thoughtful Today: you are a little late arent you, bud? Are they going to dock you for that?
Thoughtful Today
…
Speaking as one of the noisier Sanders supporters on this blog, I’ve got a better Democratic Party voting record than Hillary (Yes, She Voted Republican) Clinton.
David Koch sure is overly excited to be voting for a college Republican President.
Matt McIrvin
@Sparrow:
The BJ community is actually weighted toward Obama. They’re not inherently Hillary loyalists; in 2008, the discussion here ran more to supporting Obama against Clinton.
But that also means that they run to being yellow-dog Democratic voters who are highly suspicious of “not a dime’s worth of difference” talk, Naderism, claims that this or that Democratic position is a “dealbreaker”, Firedoglake-style left anti-Obamaism and such. In 2008, there was a peculiar tendency, still baffling to me, for these people to be pro-Clinton PUMAists (though they turned out to be a non-issue in the general election). Today, we see that tendency in the loudest core of Sanders supporters. I think it’s a smaller fraction of Sanders supporters than it appears, but they’re the ones who are most visible because they flood political discussions with fanatical comments.
Chyron HR
I’m shocked, shocked to learn that the DNC rolling over and playing dead for Messiah Bernie is not enough to placate His disciples.
JVader
@gwangung: Having worked in cyber security in the gov and private sector for 10 years and IT for 30 years (jeebus I’m f’n old) I can tell with certainty that we have 10% of the story. Data exfiltration, depending on how it’s done, can be very difficult to track unless the architecture is setup properly to identify it as it is happening. I guarantee you that they are spending 99% of their time looking at logs (OS, f/w, database, IDS/IPS) to find out what is known… the problem with this is what is important is what you don’t know and what isn’t recorded, what’s missing. As much art as science involved in the root cause analysis.
Thoughtful Today
…
Clinton supporter Chyron HR: “playing dead for Messiah Bernie is not enough to placate His disciples.”
The nastiest of Clinton’s supporters used the same tactic in 2007-8: Referring to Obama as a Messiah and referring to Obama’s supporters as cultish.
Republicans picked it up and used it against Obama and his supporters after Clinton lost the primary.
chopper
@Ripley:
I was going to say “objectivist” but really they’re the same thing.
Frankensteinbeck
@Applejinx:
Even assuming DWS was leaning on the scale for Hillary, Hillary was not engaging in any tactics, fair or unfair, against Sanders. She is not involved here except as the victim whose information was stolen. DWS is a big girl and can make her own decisions.
Kropadope
@Frankensteinbeck:
That’s what I was saying, but somehow I was being unfair to Hillary.
Ella in NM
@Satby:
Yunno, fuck you.
@FlipYrWhig:
Glad to be of service. :-)
As a Sanders-leaning supporter, who has voted Dem her whole life and will vote for Hilary even if she’s not my first choice, I’m troubled by a lot of things in this story, as well as the way the DNC has totally tried to sway this election towards Hilary.
I find it incredibly strange that this company running the data base–which is reported to have donated to the Clinton campaign to the tune of $35K?–did nothing to warn its customers in both camps that it was going to do some data base patch work that could lead to breaches.
Or better yet, do what my frigging hospital does when it needs to install a patch: DOWNTIME. Tell both parties that the fucking thing was going off line for 30 minutes and to get all their info backed up and use it in the interim. THEN patch the crappy software without risking a data breach and tempting either campaign to take a peek.
I also find it incredibly suspicious that the Clinton campaign supposedly just immediately covered their eyes and plugged their fingers in their ears when the wall dropped from their side. Either this is bull shit or these guys knew this was gonna happen and took steps to prevent themselves from seeing or accessing the data.
Also, too, I’m sorry but nobody in Hilary’s database information is NOT giving her money because of this, and I am willing to bet that were they to be inclined to do so would have started giving or will give in the future to Sanders. It’s all monopoly money here, folks.
But the incompetence of the company, and the DNC Chair through this entire campaign is astounding in a country and a party where the stakes are so high. For DWS to be so invested in drowning out Sanders voice is shameful. We need Bernie and his voters–even the non-Democrats who are thinking of voting for him. We need to get them and if he loses, transition them to Clinton. For her to have rigged the debates and the rules and now this stupid event, is grounds for her to step down.
She might as well be working for the Trump campaign.
Matt McIrvin
God, I think I need to stop paying attention to politics for a while. This whole business has me so despairing–I can crunch the numbers as stated above, but so many liberals I know on line are screeching at me about the evil of the Hildebeest now (and how she’s going to continue the lies and crimes of Obama, the traitor who sold us out).
We’re gonna lose. I can feel it in my bones. Donald Trump or Ted Cruz is gonna be fucking President, and the world will be drenched in blood.
Applejinx
@Frankensteinbeck: On the contrary, Hillary was involved in calling for Sanders’ data to be released, which it has. An old trick: allow the problem and then ride in on a white horse fixing it up.
We only lost $600,000 of fundraising and an irreplacable day. That’s politics in the big leagues. I for one rejoice at Hillary being smarter than the many ratfuckers lining up under her banner, and taking the high road. Of course, she had to take the high road because it would’ve been a fatal mistake not to: props for her intelligence, too.
Like we say: tough but fair! Apart from the whole calling off the election and declaring her King, thing ;)
Frankensteinbeck
@Ella in NM:
First, I do not think Sanders supporters are mostly Naderite loons. The wackos are just loud. Tragedy of the commons, and thus it has ever been. That said…
The one thing Applejinx has said that seems to be plain fact is that these firewall collapses are regular. Both sides would have had lots of chances to exploit them. Only one side has been caught doing so.
Why is this hard to believe? They knew about a security flaw, and didn’t take advantage of it to steal the other side’s data.
What are you saying here? It sounds like you’re saying that Hillary rigged this event to steal donors from Sanders. Is that right? I hope I misunderstand you, because that’s wandering into conspiracy theory crazy-town. As a Hillary supporter, I’m perfectly happy with ‘Some Sanders staffers committed an ethical breach, motivated by good intentions to determine the extent of a security flaw, but still a big no-no.’
I’m not committed either way to this argument, but it’s a totally reasonable opinion. Her actions have certainly been bad PR for our side.
Frankensteinbeck
@Applejinx:
No, sorry. You can’t say she wasn’t involved AND that she called off the election. Do you think she controlled DWS’s reaction or not? If Hillary just stood back and said something polite, then she is not calling off the election and is only the victim here. It doesn’t go both ways.
EDIT – The thrust of your arguments seems to be that after this incident, the Sanders campaign has the moral high ground. You don’t. Maybe DWS did something bad, maybe not. The Sanders campaign definitely did. The Hillary campaign hasn’t done anything at all.
Kropadope
Apparently the DNC broke their own rules in their response, too. According to the contract allowing use of the software, those believed to be in violation of the agreement are supposed to be notified in writing and allowed 10 days to address concerns before having their access cut off.
Kropadope
@Frankensteinbeck: The Hillary campaign hasn’t done anything at all.
This time….that we know of…..it’s a nice change.
FlipYrWhig
@Frankensteinbeck:
That’s what all the Sanders people are saying — one step shy of “false flag.” And thus the actual bad act, Sanders people playing with Clinton campaign data, becomes beside the point, and the REAL bad act is reacting to it in the form of a suspension. The Sanders people really, really don’t like that Democrats prefer Clinton, and explain it with fantasies of cheating and skulduggery. Not winning has to be a product of someone else’s perfidy, see, because the alternative is that not enough people like your guy better, and that’s just plain inconceivable! Also, Debbie Wasserman Schultz has become the new Rahm, the Keyser Soze-ish person responsible for kneecapping True Progressives.
The whole thing is reminiscent of Bob In Portland’s elaborate apologias for Putinist Russia. It’s really rather embarrassing.
FlipYrWhig
@Frankensteinbeck: Sanders ALWAYS has the moral high ground. I think he was born there.
Kropadope
@FlipYrWhig: The Hillary fans are the ones who dragged Hillary into this, at least in this comment thread. This is your “perfidy,” what you and Omnes and cacti are doing. You’re making the argument about something else and then blaming someone else. Perhaps I should change my username to “Red Herring.”
Thoughtful Today
Erm…
Democratic National Committee Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz has been _standing_ on the scale for Hillary Clinton from the beginning.
Hillary’s anti-democratic impulses, from use of superdelegates in 2007-8 and now again in this cycle (which is inherently disenfranchising and reduces regular Democratic voters to 1/10,000th of a ‘vote’) to Hillary’s contempt for debates, is part of what I revile about not just her, but more broadly, the elitist contempt Dem Superdelegates have for regular Party voters.
I literally laughed out loud when Hillary ‘Superdelegates Rule’ Clinton pandered to those worried about disenfrachisement.
Hillary ‘Superdelegates Rule’ Clinton is the _poster_child_ for disenfrachisement.
FlipYrWhig
@Kropadope: There were other comment threads, and my reaction is cumulative. Applejinx has been particularly egregious.
BTW, useful analysis of the situation by David Atkins at Washington Monthly Browser keeps borking the direct link, alas.
FlipYrWhig
@Thoughtful Today: Do you really seriously think that a larger number of debates would have changed the state of the race? Maybe O’Malley can make that claim, because he has no way to get airtime without debates. Sanders, OTOH, can’t claim that he’s been deprived of coverage, and neither can his supporters.
FlipYrWhig
@Thoughtful Today: Btw, people who can’t fathom why their candidate is losing by 20-25% even though he’s so obviously superior… Isn’t that “elitist contempt” in its own right?
Ella in NM
@Frankensteinbeck:
Because it’s highly unlikely they didn’t “peek” too. It would have been almost impossible to avoid. The company issued a statement that both sides were equally open to view to the other, and that accidental crossovers were likely to have occurred.
As too your suggestion that I’m saying that Hillary rigged this event to steal donors from Sanders, that’s not what I think at all. I think it is plausible that someone, highly invested in Clinton beating Sanders, set this thing up to make him look bad. After all, why was it necessary to notify the press right away when this could all have been handled at the DNC level, and the proper notice given to Sander’s campaign, per their contract? Instead this one-sided story hit the news and became the dominant theme.
Also, maybe it’s because the VP of NPG-VAN is Debbie Wasserman Schultz’s nephew? And it’s founder Nathaniel Pearlman was Chief Technology Officer for the Hillary Clinton 2008 campaign?
Omnes Omnibus
@Ella in NM: You should read the article that FlipYourWhig linked to above. If other campaigns had peeked, it would have been recorded.
Ella in NM
@FlipYrWhig: I’m sorry but you are such a fucktard.
Someone claiming to be a Democrat insulting people who are genuinely concerned that things be as fair and open as possible in the electoral process for the President of the United States is what’s embarrassing.
This isn’t a fucking game between the Pats and the Cowboys, as much as those making the big bucks in the “media’ and the rest of our political election industry seem to think.
We’re hemorrhaging voters in this country, and our government looks like it. Dysfunctional and at war with itself, but worse, becoming increasingly less responsive to its people, to history, to progress. Of the two parties, the Democrats are the least unsavory and are still the safest group to hold power. But if no one votes for them because Trump looks exciting and fresh, we’re fucked.
People already suspect that their vote doesn’t count, that every thing is rigged and about behind the scenes skulduggary. Thats why they stay home on election day. Is it so worth your favorite candidate winning that you’ll support creating further disillusion among voters that they all just stay home and let the Kochs and the Wall Street brigades run your country?
Ella in NM
@Omnes Omnibus: I don’t believe we have an actual audit of everything that happened, just the DNC’s accusations reports, followed by admissions from the Sanders camps. But like I said, how convenient it is that only the Clinton camp was not tempted to look…
Thoughtful Today
“Do you really seriously think that a larger number of debates would have changed the state of the race?”
ABSOLUTELY.
I absolutely believe that the numerous Democratic debates during 2007-8 was CRUCIAL in electing a black man named Hussein. Debates expanded the Democratic Party’s message, reach, and power. But the debates that helped the Democratic Party, didn’t help Hillary.
Hillary and DWS know this but are willing to gamble America’s Presidency for fear that Hillary might repeat 2008. Both are _knowingly_ hurting the Democratic Party to help Hillary’s chances.
Let me repeat that:
Hillary is knowingly hurting the Democratic Party’s best chances to expand it’s membership through the massive free media of National Debates in order to forward her own career.
Alex
@Ella in NM: There is an audit — there’s a PDF link to and explanation of it at http://iowastartingline.com/2015/12/19/sanders-campaigns-reckless-reaction-to-data-breach-is-a-danger-to-all-democrats/
Satby
@Ella in NM: I specifically stated “Sanders supporters I know personally”. So, yunno, fuck you right back because I know these people and you don’t. I didn’t say all supporters of Bernie. I don’t really give a flying fuck about your voting history, it wasn’t at all relevant to my statement.
Ella in NM
@Thoughtful Today:
Exactly. And this crap they’re pulling is why we had a 37% overall turnout in our last national election, and it’s why we’re doomed if we all don’t push back. Like I said in my comment above @Ella in NM:
@Satby: Sounds like you need to expand your circle of people you know, not insult the ones you don’t.
FlipYrWhig
@Ella in NM: I’m a fucktard now? What the ever loving fuck is wrong with you? More Democrats like Clinton than like Sanders. Scoreboard. Why did that happen? Maybe in part because the Sanders people are narcissists of small differences with a cultlike adoration of a boring, gloomy, disheveled old man.
FlipYrWhig
@Ella in NM: Basically if Bernie doesn’t win it causes widespread disillusionment with all of politics. But if he wins that doesn’t happen anymore because Bernie has magickal powers to cure all political badness. Jesus Christ. You’d like that the candidate whose supporters just got caught with their hands in the cookie jar would have a modicum of restraint from preachy moral pronouncements. Take a look at yourselves. It’s a sight to behold.
Sparrow
@FlipYrWhig: There hasn’t been a reasonable case made that they got anything remotely useful from the breach, however wrong it was. This should have never gone to the press. That’s the tell. I agree 100% with Ella that Hillary et al are putting her career and her neoliberal goals above the long term health of the party
Sparrow
@Chyron HR: Hyperbole aside, I am actually fine with the resolution and now want the whole story to go away. It should never have been national news. The benefits go to the republicans.
different-church-lady
@Applejinx:
Yeah, well they ain’t obligated to share some other candidate’s data with them. And I’m pretty damn sure wandering into another candidate’s data is a violation of whatever contract they’ve got. You break a contract, the other party has got the right to tell you to piss up a rope.
The whole damn thing is a tempest in a teapot, but the idea that Sanders is the aggrieved party here is just fucking ridiculous beyond belief.
Alex
@Sparrow: The Sanders campaign got the raw numbers on how many voters (by age group) Hillary thinks they have now and how many are persuadable in multiple early states.
sparrow
@Alex: Sure, but I seriously doubt the Sanders campaign would be dumb enough to use anything they saw, and besides that, it’s basically modelling data about voters. Surely the Sanders campaign also has the same modeling capability? I just haven’t seen how this is seriously damaging to Hillary. Mildly strategically helpful to Bernie, maybe. I donno, I just find this a bit overblown. And yes, if this had been the reverse situation (Hillary staffer doing the same) I would feel exactly the same about all this. The DNC screwed up making this a story at all.
Ella in NM
@FlipYrWhig: OMG I apologize. I just realize that I referenced the wrong person. You’re not a fucktard. I’d tell you who IS one, but won’t–it’s an intemperate thing to do anyway.
Ok, never mind it was Satsby. But you: NOT a fucktard. I just don’t agree with some of your points. Bernie’s not gloomy!!! :-P
Get me some frigging new glasses for Christmas somebody
Ella in NM
@Sparrow: Yes, this. . And that the DNC and the way DWS handled this is a frigging joke.
Ella in NM
@FlipYrWhig:
No, that’s not my point. My point is that many who care about the issues Bernie is talking about feel disenfranchised and shut out of a rigged system, and want their voices heard, at least in the debate/discussion during the primaries. And as dumb as they are, there are people who are looking at Trump vs. Sanders and are liking Sanders so they’re tuning in right now. We need them to tune in MORE, because they will inevitably hear Clinton too, and that’s a really good thing if she wins: they’ll be more inclined to vote for her. Frankly, I really wish we had more debates because I want the whole COUNTRY to hear the sanity and smart ideas from the candidates on our side because I think they’ll reach people. We’ve limited Bernie’s chances of beating Hilary at the expense of drawing in a lot of undecideds.
There’s a lot to admire about Hilary, but even her solid backers must know that she has enough negative baggage to overcome that they don’t need to add to it by making it appear that Democratic insiders and her campaign are bullying out any competition, especially from someone perceived as an “outsider”, valid or not.