Benny ✔ @bennyjohnson
Commentary from terror expert on CNN: “The terrorists have read Snowden. They know not to use their phones. We cannot predict anything now.”
6:36 PM – 13 Nov 2015
Dan Holloway
@RFCdan
To people blaming refugees for attacks in Paris tonight. Do you not realise these are the people the refugees are trying to run away from..?
6.
JMG
Dear John: On Twitter, which I don’t use, you asked what band. It was Eagles of Death Metal.
This could happen damn near anywhere — just takes people willing to do it.
I heard that Newt has opined that if only some of the concert-goers had been armed, well, it would have been a different story. With the current crop the GOP is offering up, I’d all but forgotten just what a hateful, putrescent blob of slime he is.
8.
max
@rikyrah: “The terrorists have read Snowden. They know not to use their phones. We cannot predict anything now.”
Somehow that makes me think of the Dueling Anthems scene from Casablanca.
Don’t know what it is particularly about La Marseillaise, but there is just something wonderfully defiant about it. A bloody, melodious “fuck you” en français.
So, good for them!
11.
Rob
@Hungry Joe#7:
I saw Gingrich’s statement on Twitter. Disgusting.
Don’t know what it is particularly about La Marseillaise, but there is just something wonderfully defiant about it. A bloody, melodious “fuck you” en français.
We’ll water our fields with their blood is pretty fucking defiant.
13.
lamh36
CNN now reporting at least 149 dead…from info from local Paris news sources.
14.
Mary G
Horrifying, yes.
15.
pacem appellant
Ma pauvre cité. Aux armes, en effet.
16.
srv
Tour bus brakes failed in Union Square, San Francisco. Lot of injured.
17.
ksmiami
Not sure there is a place for religion in modern life. Does more harm than good
I’m trying to find good coverage on tv, but people are using sources to say that this seems like SIS or ISIL or Al Queda, when no one has any solid leads…
Does anyone know who did this?
22.
max
@SiubhanDuinne: Don’t know what it is particularly about La Marseillaise, but there is just something wonderfully defiant about it. A bloody, melodious “fuck you” en français.
Ate my reply. AMEN!
120 dead at Bataclan, 40 dead elsewhere, 160 total.
max
[‘TK.’]
23.
Corner Stone
@rikyrah: Are you posting this ironically or unironically?
24.
Ruckus
@ksmiami:
Looking through history and even accounting for the solace that many take from religions, that statement could have been said about many, many times/events in the history of the world. Religions are a human construct and as such they are subject to all the foibles of same.
Since it’s Open Thread:
The server connection glitches are getting more and more frequent. They seem to be happening to me every few minutes. What’s going on over there?
It’s why I was saying the on air coverage is using “sources”. I figured no one really knows, but hasn’t stopped them from speculation
30.
Corner Stone
Really not the best time for server stasis.
31.
ksmiami
@Ruckus: As I said – as of right now, religion is more of a cancer than a cure. – I won’t be surprised if France removes its Muslim populace. Ugly stuff is about to happen
@Hungry Joe: When police or military go into a building, one of the things they worry about is friendly fire. It happens. I can’t imagine the consequences of a bunch of armed civilians shooting up a theater in an attempt to stave off terrorists.
33.
Elizabelle
Me wrong. Neil Young’s birthday was yesterday. November 12.
34.
ThresherK
There’s a CONCACAF qualifier on TV, in St. Louis. US hosting St Vincent & Grenadines, 5-1 after 60 minutes.
The crowd sounds understandably subdued.
35.
jon
@lamh36: I wish the know-it-all brigade would know basic information before saying it’s So-and-So or Whosywhatsits, because even if they’re right about this being related to Syrian refugees that doesn’t even say if it’s Sunnis or Shiites. It could be some elderly Algerian torture victims from the 1960s for all the definitive intelligence I’ve heard.
I’ve already seen complaints about Obama’s statement, not that he didn’t use “terrorism” (he did) but that he didn’t use “Islamist” (I’m guessing he didn’t, but I don’t care since the term is pretty meaningless aside from right wing talking point criticism checklists.) Just wait a day and there will be youtube videos and more claiming credit, how great their cause is, and whatnot. Just give it a day.
I can’t imagine the consequences of a bunch of armed civilians shooting up a theater in an attempt to stave off terrorists.
I can. Lots more dead civilians, and no dead terrorists, because they’d have come in body armor. Armed civilians don’t help the US with its endless parade of spree shootings.
40.
Marc
@ksmiami: ten percent of the population is Muslim. Not happening.
@ksmiami: Agreed. I know this is an opinion that puts me at odds with 90% of the world, but there *is* something dangerous, or perhaps damaging, about tolerating and encouraging totally irrational beliefs. Today it’s the irrational belief that you can talk to the invisible sky fairy and he’ll make the football game go your way, tomorrow it’s 40 virgins as a reward for blowing up infidels. Yes, I know, tons of people believe irrational things without going suicidal, but it’s still a weakening of the rational mind. And there are plenty of other fonts of irrational belief abound (particularly in the tribal thinking of politics), so I don’t pick on religion only. I still wish it would quietly go away.
43.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
Horrifying. Pretty much sums it up, Cole.
@ksmiami:
Ugly stuff is about to happen
This may be an understatement, especially given Le Pen.
5 attackers dead. 120 dead at Bataclan (unconfirmed), 40 dead elsewhere, plus attackers. 165.
max
[‘…’]
45.
Amir Khalid
The BBC’s sports editor says that as of 02:30 Paris time, the German Fußballmannschaft are still in the Stade de France. Presumably there’s a curfew on so they can’t go back to the hotel. President Hollande was called out of the France-Germany friendly because of the terrorist attacks.
46.
goblue72
@EconWatcher: And there is the most likely outcome. These kind of events, framed by the villains amongst us as an “attack on the Fatherland Homeland” – are far more likely to engender fascism than anything else.
47.
max
NYPD on heightened alert, along with port authority.
State of emergency in France.
Effective immediately, the cabinet said the authorities would have the power to, among other things:
– order the temporary closure of places of public assembly like concert halls and theaters;
– impose house arrest on anyone considered dangerous;
– confiscate weapons;
– conduct certain kinds of searches of premises with more leeway.
The Paris police prefecture later announced in a Twitter posting that all public street events and demonstrations were suspended until further notice.
max
[‘BK.’]
48.
Emerald
Here is a link to live coverage on France 24, in English. I get it on my Roku player, with the Nowhere Channel. But here it is on the interwebz: http://www.france24.com/en/livefeed
“They didnt shout anything, they didnt say anything, not Allahu Akbar or something like this.” — eyewitness in club.
50.
Joel
Fucking terrible, what else can I say?
51.
mdblanche
@Marc: Ten percent of the population in Poland before WWII was Jewish…
52.
goblue72
@Emerald: Thanks. Interestingly, Canadian PM was on making an extremely measured statement, bilingually of course.
Followed by the newscasters discussing tweets from Judith Miller and Newt Gingrich. With the newscasters then stating “What are they talking about? A Wild West shoot-out. Some people just take advantage of these situations. Shame on you Newt Gingrich, shame on you.”
53.
ksmiami
@Marc: Based on studying the history of Europe never say never
54.
goblue72
@ksmiami: Its not 1935. Save the histrionics, please.
55.
goblue72
@mdblanche: And down the rabbit hole of stupid histrionics we go!
56.
max
@efgoldman: That makes about as much sense as Trump and the Opossum on his head deporting 11 million undocumented immigrants from the US.
Speaking of horrible, TPM:
A new poll finds Donald Trump surging well above his chief 2016 rival Ben Carson after week that included a Saturday Night Live appearance and a GOP debate.
Forty-two percent of likely GOP voters supported Trump in a five-day rolling poll released Friday by Reuters/Ipsos, up from 25 percent last week. Carson was also polling around 25 percent last week and his support among GOP voters has since dipped slightly.
Meanwhile, Sen. Marco Rubio’s support among primary voters has remained level at 10 percent, despite a debate performance that was cheered by establishment Republicans.
Trump is also clearly leading the field among Republicans in general, claiming 34 percent of all Republicans in the sample to Carson’s 20 percent.
The results of the five-day rolling Reuters/Ipsos poll was based on a sample of 534 Republican voters; 257 voters made up like likely primary voter sample pool.
max
[‘Well, GEE. It IS Friday the 13th.’]
57.
ksmiami
@efgoldman: I think you fail to see the major differences between the US and our European counterparts. Here, people blend in, contribute, strive. In the suburbs of Paris, things are not so simple. And in the long run, there is no path to full citizenship in France no matter how long you’ve lived there. At least we have birthright citizenship and it makes a huge difference.
According to the AJC the band members heard the shots and went out behind the stage. They notified family members that they are in a police station and safe.
The drummer is from Atlanta.
59.
Peale
@max: what. I thought Rubio was surging! I was told by good sources that Jeb needed to spend unlimited sums to destroy Rubio.
There is no question that it will get worse as they move toward dawn in Paris. There is no question that it will get worse as the days turn into months and the months into years. Barbarians have laid siege to an entire European city for one of the first times since Rome fell. The body count will climb. The retribution will be swift and harsh, as will the inevitable reaction, and as will the retribution for the reaction. And the events of the day will be fed into the armored, blind triviality of the ongoing American election, and into the utterly corrupted American political system, and into the carefully cultivated timidity and faithlessness that all of these things have combined to make out of the American democracy over the past 15 years. Something awful has happened in Paris. Out of it will be born something awful in the collective mind and the collective heart and the collective soul. I wish I weren’t so sure of this, but the planet looks awfully black from up here, and it doesn’t look any different if you close your eyes.
Germany offer military aid to France.
Sarkozy says the terrorists have declared war on France.
French presidential palace clarifies: borders not closed, but imposing border controls.
CNN official: 112 at theater, 14 restaurant, 19 bar, 4 stadium & 4 on a separate street.
@goblue72: I wouldn’t call Le Pen’s movement histrionics. And I’m not talking 1935, but a shift rightward in Europe that has large scale ramifications.
63.
max
@Peale: what. I thought Rubio was surging! I was told by good sources that Jeb needed to spend unlimited sums to destroy Rubio.
He IS surging, in front of Jeb who is sinking, so that nets out as… not much.
max
[‘But he is accelerating away from Jeb, in an Einsteinian sense.’]
max
[‘No one can make up their mind on how many killed.’]
72.
beltane
@ksmiami: Birthright citizenship does make a difference. If you are born here you will never be a foreigner under the law. Why the Republicans want to create a class of native born non-Americans is beyond me.
Sorry to sound cold, but 120 dead by gun violence is what, a week in America? A couple of days?
And yet this will change many things, as nothing changes in America.
74.
max
John Kerry Verified account @JohnKerry
Je me rejoins à @POTUS en condamnant les attentats terroristes à Paris. C’est une aggression contre l’humanité et les gens épris de liberté.
max
[‘Because fuck Swift Boaters.’]
75.
ksmiami
@beltane: Exactly – it’s one of the keys to our nation’s success. And one of the reasons why Europe has huge integration issues.
76.
lamh36
Ok, now watching Maddow.
She’s good at this type of just stating the facts types coverage.
I was wondering why I kept seeing a video of a soccer match but apparently, you can actually hear one of the bombs exploding at the stadium
Survivor of Bataclan massacre: “To survive I crawled under a body then I went to a restroom. I was shot in the ankle. I have never seen so many dead people around me in my life. I am traumatized.”
I do too. It is one of the greatest scenes of film propaganda ever. It is very powerful. It is also just a great movie scene. One thing I like about it is the fact that it is actually Rick that instigates the trouble, not Victor Lasslo. Victor tells the band to play, but the conductor looks up at Rick, and Rick nods okay. It is clear that if Rick had said no, they never would have played the song. A great scene in a great movie.
83.
lamh36
@nytimes
We are providing unlimited access to our website and mobile apps for coverage of Paris attacks. Follow live updates:
84.
mdblanche
Maddow just reporting one of the members of the American band playing at Bataclan was killed.
85.
lamh36
@jaketapper 5m5 minutes ago
Americans in France needing assistance -011-202-501-4444
people in US worried about family in France – State Dept Hotline – 888-407-4747
86.
Ruckus
@max:
It might have been me. But it sounds like maybe several of us. I would like to know if it’s me, what I did to fuck it up so badly. Possibly I might stop doing that.
87.
D58826
@max: Somebody made the same comment about AL Quida after 9/11. Th NY Times had published an article about our ability to intercept cell phone communications. Somehow I think most terrorists have figured out to keep their communications secure. They don’t need Snowdon to tell them.
“Julian started drumming at the age of 6, as an original member of the Flying Dorios. The band included his father and his older brother, Michael Dorio of Trances Arc. A high school graduate of The Westminster Schools in Atlanta and a college graduate of the University of Georgia, Dorio currently resides in Georgia. The town of Athens has been home for both him and Gispert, the band’s lead singer, since they were in school there. “
It is one of the greatest scenes of film propaganda ever.
It is that.
It is also just a great movie scene.
Yes, which is why it doesn’t necessarily or immediately come across as propaganda.
90.
max
@lamh36: Rachel pointing out that despite online reports, not all gunmen have been “neutralized” there may be more at large…so this isn’t over.
Yeah – they say ‘accomplices’ – not necessarily more gunmen.
@Ruckus: It might have been me. But it sounds like maybe several of us. I would like to know if it’s me, what I did to fuck it up so badly. Possibly I might stop doing that.
I think it’s the PHP barf on the server, but it’s totally unpredictable. It does seems to happen often with higher load.
@Ruckus: I believe it was said earlier that there’s something up with the PHP on the server and that correcting it is the hands of the hosting company. Sometimes ya just gotta sit and wait on other people.
@rikyrah:
Christ. I am no fan of Snowden, but CNN, you should be ashamed of yourselves both for the stupidity and the dickishness of saying that on national news.
96.
max
Police Prefect Michelle Caddow (sp?): Four attackers in Bataclan, sprayed machine gun fire at cafes then charged into Bataclan, took hostages. When police counter-attack came, attackers blew themselves up with suicide belts, taking four more with them. Addition separate attack in second location, possibly mobile. Police are looking for any possible accomplices, besides 5 attackers already killed. (They’re looking for helpers.)
max
[‘TK.’]
97.
D58826
@max: Listening to some of the analysis on MSNBC and it is very depressing. Issues such as the large number of unemployed young people, a Muslim population that isn’t well integrated into the local society, the rise of anti-Semitism, the rise of the hard right nativist political parties, whither the EU can survive,and the huge flow of refugees from failed states in the middle east and Africa. There are so many threads running thru these events that it may well be impossible to address them. American politicians, esp the GOP, keep talking about strong American leadership but they never get into details about what to do (other than bombing somebody). Depressing
98.
gogol's wife
John Cole’s top tweet there is a response to a particularly vile tweet from Judith Miller. Why is she showing her face in public?
American politicians, esp the GOP, keep talking about strong American leadership
This has very, very little to do with us. Iraq maybe stirred things up a little more, but France has its own issues with Islam, and has for a long time. America is not the center of the world, source of all things.
102.
lamh36
The Associated Press @AP 1m1 minute ago
BREAKING: Head of Paris police says all attackers are believed to be dead.
103.
Another Holocene Human
@ksmiami: My thought is that people will kill each other over land or money or imperialism or even perceived or real lack of respect, racism, and so on. But there’s something about religion, I think because it latches onto this childhood programming (god = daddy, and so on), that makes people get even more irrational and locked into their positions and likely to see any slight as a loss of face worth dying and killing for. There is no provocation like desecration of a sacred object, space, or idea.
I don’t even think all religions are this way but I suspect they all get this way, as parents teach their kid their religion and it settles in the next generation’s brain along with all the feelings they had about their parents when they were three and their parents were invincible and omniscient and their sole means of support. Name a religion supposed to be all cool and zen and shit and you can find fundies of it.
Maybe it’s not religion itself but this whole process of teaching religious doctrine to children that causes all the problems.
But the effect is real. It really does make people act even stupider than whatever underlying casus belli was already driving them to act.
@Frankensteinbeck: Outside of GOP fantasies, I think France does have an attitude towards citizenship, and how to accommodate, or not accommodate, a diverse multicultural population that resembles the GOP ideal, I think more so than other European governments. So, I wonder how that plays into repeated outbursts of violence in France. Besides terrorist attacks, were weeks of riots in poorer Paris suburbs some time ago.
I hear a lot of iffy speculation on news on it being by ISIS or an affiliated group, or has something to do with Syria.
We’ll hear a lot of knee jerk BS from US reactionaries.
106.
max
@D58826: Issues such as the large number of unemployed young people, a Muslim population that isn’t well integrated into the local society, the rise of anti-Semitism, the rise of the hard right nativist political parties, whither the EU can survive,and the huge flow of refugees from failed states in the middle east and Africa.
If EU would quit insisting on fucking the economy for some right-wing hard currency bullshit, that would help A LOT. Particularly with unemployment. Particularly with the Mahgrebis.
Separately, it would help A LOT, if fucking Bibi would quit insisting on pushing settlements and trying to claim the Temple Mount.
If we did those two things, we could maybe focus on hammering Daesh.
max
[‘Assholes. Elite assholes are fucking everything up.’]
There are many things screwed up about the good ole US of A, but this is one thing where we’ve been way ahead of much of the rest of the world, including much (most?) of Europe.
This crap where you can be N-th generation born in country X, yet not a citizen of X, whereas someone with a “blood” connection can easily become a citizen, is flat-out naseating.
” If EU would quit insisting on fucking the economy for some right-wing hard currency bullshit, that would help A LOT. Particularly with unemployment. Particularly with the Mahgrebis. ”
That is a good point, and I’ve heard that aspect of rise of right wing in Europe discussed in our corporate media. Probably for obvious reasons. Why not talk about scary foreign people?
109.
mtiffany
@max: Not trying to get into a pissing match with you but LeFigaro is reporting 126 dead, approx. 210 wounded — 83 critical, 132 ‘urgent’
and France24 still reporting ‘at least 120 dead’
all numbers are of course being reported ‘provisional’ (preliminary)
110.
Peale
@Frankensteinbeck: but the U.S. Hasn’t done enough to ensure that terrorists don’t infiltrate and attack France.
I guess that’s the argument.
111.
Villago Delenda Est
@rikyrah: The assumption that the perpetrators are stupid enough to use their phones, even without Snowdon’s revelations, makes this terrorist “expert” suspect.
Osama bin Laden didn’t use phones or other modern communications technology. He used couriers. The most secure means there is. It’s slow, but it’s by far the most secure.
112.
Gin & Tonic
@gogol’s wife: Some of the responses to her Tweet are outstanding. I wonder if she ever even looks at them?
@Another Holocene Human: If the prospects for just continued survival were not so bleak, religion wouldn’t be able alone to motivate like this for most people.
116.
Gin & Tonic
@Villago Delenda Est: I’ve always had the suspicion that those who appear on TV as “terrorism experts” are the ones who couldn’t handle it in the real operational world.
117.
Ruckus
Now it’s eating my comments. ARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
118.
max
@mtiffany: Not trying to get into a pissing match with you but LeFigaro is reporting 126 dead, approx. 210 wounded — 83 critical, 132 ‘urgent’
That’s what I saw – victim of a misworded report. Sorry.
Forgive my ignorance, I never even heard of this band until a few hours ago. Doesn’t diminish my horror or sadness.
The band is mostly a side project for more established musicians. One of the co-founders is Josh Homme who is lead singer for Queens of the Stone Age and Them Crooked Vultures. As a side project they mostly surface in the down time for the members, put out an album, tour, and then vanish for a number of years.
QaSA is a solid band (multiple grammy noms), and Eagles gets a decent following from that audience. Both bands are from the desert here in SoCal and basically developed as part of the Coachella scene.
And in the long run, there is no path to full citizenship in France no matter how long you’ve lived there. At least we have birthright citizenship and it makes a huge difference.
Actually France does have birthright citizenship. It just takes two generations. One needs to be born in France and have at least one parent who was born in France. It is not as simple as our system, but there is a path to citizenship for immigrant families.
@Omnes Omnibus: A few generations might be too long, though.
Here is summary from the Wikipedia Jus Soli article link above:
” Children born in France (including overseas territories) to at least one foreign parent who is also born in France automatically acquire French citizenship at birth. Children born to foreign parents may request citizenship depending on their age and length of residence (see French nationality law).”
127.
mtiffany
@max: I need to ask: are you seeing the French media assigning blame or resonsibility or motivation to any particular group, other than generic terrorism? Because everything I’m reading and hearing comes down to ‘it’s obviously terrorism, and we’re all aware of what’s going on in the news, but until we know for certain, we’re not jumping to any conclusions.”
That is a good point, and I’ve NEVER heard that aspect of rise of right wing in Europe discussed in our corporate media. Probably for obvious reasons. Why not talk about scary foreign people?
@max: Sikhs and the Marathas were the two groups that fought against the encroaching British Empire until the very end. Also too, the Mughal Empire before that.
@mtiffany: I think safe to say it is terrorism. Not safe to say exactly who sponsored it or did it, Certainly not safe to blame it on race problems in the US, US college students’ response to said problems, Obama, or supposed liberal PC run amok, but I hope only Fox News is peddling that crap.
I am listening to CBS news and it seems at times to assume that radical fundy Islamicists did it, but not going further than that.
Wasn’t Syria a part of the French Empire? Did they part on good terms?
135.
liberal
@schrodinger’s cat:
I could be mistaken, but I thought that France carved Lebanon out of Syria. Have a more-Christian enclave or something.
136.
Omnes Omnibus
@liberal: I agree witht eh concept of birthright citizenship, but the people up thread talking about there being no way to become a citizen are wrong. the problems in les banlieues are not due to the lack of a path to citizenship. They are due to poverty and poverty related crime.
137.
lamh36
@ninatypewriter 1h1 hour ago
The world is reporting on horrendous GOP tweets about #ParisAttacks. They’re reading them on @France24_en right now, saying “Shame on you.”
If EU would quit insisting on fucking the economy for some right-wing hard currency bullshit, that would help A LOT. Particularly with unemployment. Particularly with the Mahgrebis.
Separately, it would help A LOT, if fucking Bibi would quit insisting on pushing settlements and trying to claim the Temple Mount.
I don’t think either of these necessarily are related to this.
I think the two larger trends were the extended drought signficantly increasing food scarcity and costs, and western nations finally turning against our cold war dictators, allowing for the colonial national borders to be challenged. That has been happening from Tunisia to Pakistan.
Basically, the middle east has been propped up as an artificial construct by western nations for decades. Once the cold war ended, our tolerance to constantly dump strategic money and influence into these nations faded. Democracy is a noble goal, but self-governance carries a lot of challenges, particularly when you have centuries-old disagreements within your national borders.
139.
EZSmirkzz
The best way to battle the darkness, whether domestic or foreign, is to leave your light on.
Of all people, I could rail against the neo-cons inability to consider the consequences of their policy and the conservative hate mongers for their utter lack of human decency, but it serves me no good, and does them no ill.
Keep your thoughts, ( and prayers, if you offer them,) on the victims, not on yourself or the analysts, or the afore mentioned groups. Perhaps you may embarrass the Christians at home by loving your neighbors as yourself. Perhaps you can shame them by loving your enemies as well, although I think I’m asking too much. Try it, you’ll like it.
@liberal: FYWP ate my comments. Lebanon long a scene of vicious religious sectarian violence, and that drew in French involvement after some massacres.. France got seriously involved in 1920s in Lebanon and Syria after Ottoman Empire collapsed in WWI. I don’t think same thing as colonizing North Africa.
Edit: I don’t think Lebanon was enough of a thing to be carved up. Awful mess of viciously fighting religious sects for a long time.
141.
max
@jl: I’m definitely skipping the next GOP pres debate.
Haven’t seen one yet, no intention of starting. Leave it to the people GETTING PAID UNLIKE ME to listen to that horseshit.
Probably, overpaid DFH philosophers, jealous of all the buck welders are pulling down, are to blame.
This is fucking year FIVE of the fucking thing with the fucking welders. The first time I heard it was when they closed the welding program at distance CC operation at a local high school in Erie, PA. Supposedly this was stupid. And it was stupid: due to austerity!
At any rate, I researched the thing and it turned out there was in article in the local paper about the shortage of welders. The shipbuilding industry in Erie had collapsed, so experience welders were scarce on the ground, so this dude decided to restart some shipbuilding in Erie and couldn’t find welders. He eventually he got some from Mobile because shipbuilding in AL was in the toilet.
There was this other asshole who was bitching about not being able to hire welders with a year’s experience at 16-18 an hour and he was complaining it was because of unemployment insurance. (Also, he drug-tested.) He said people were lazy and living off the government.
The CC local welder program in the high school had shut down because of austerity AND because they were building a nice new HS for the rich kids in the rich kids suburb with a nice football stadium and stuff…for 100 million.
The welder meme kept going and going and going, and even Thomas Friedman joined into the fun. But now they think welders get paid more than philosophy majors, even though they do not.
In sum: long-lived bullshit.
max
[‘Also, Obama is a muslim, have you heard?’]
142.
max
@mtiffany: are you seeing the French media assigning blame or resonsibility or motivation to any particular group, other than generic terrorism? Because everything I’m reading and hearing comes down to ‘it’s obviously terrorism, and we’re all aware of what’s going on in the news, but until we know for certain, we’re not jumping to any conclusions.”
Non. Just reporting what the attackers screamed.
max
[‘{shrug}’]
143.
? Martin
@raven: Not really. Josh is a really, really collaborative guy and I get the sense that Jesse Hughes is as well. Dave Grohl drummed for QoSA for a while, after all.
144.
lamh36
@TPM 20s20 seconds ago
Hillary Clinton: U.S. must stand w/ France “to wage and win the struggle against terrorism and violent extremism.” http://bit.ly/1MOfb4g
WP eated my comment or else I angered God Mode or God Median. Anyway, France ended up controlling Syria after WWI just like Britain ended up with Palestine. So in a way the after effects of WWI are still with us
@max: The first two GOP debates were more than enough for me. Following Dem debates easier on my psyche, and will do that now that they are going.
But, I couldn’t help dipping into clips of news stories on the train wrecks. More lies and BS than can be counted. Many have not even been covered, because too many moles to whack.
I did catch Paul saying Dem states have more inequality than GOP states, which is BS.
Also, the crazy philosopher bashing. Obama introduces major program to push public community college and idiot Rubio complains that not enough support of vocational education. Shit, that is half of what public community colleges do, and cheaper and far better than the private for-profit scams that Rubio and the GOPers would push (at least if those scams can be saved from bankruptcy fast enough).
149.
lamh36
Asshole says what? Ugh, I never really liked Rob Lowe…even before he had sex with a teenager (I know age of consent in GA was 16 but stilll…ugh). Sometimes there is NO shame in being SILENT Rob.
@? Martin: I don’t think either of these necessarily are related to this.
I think they are. French unemployment is very very high and French Muslim unemployment is higher still. If non-Muslim French were employed at normal rates, French Muslim unemployment would be much lower and you would have fewer people watching lots of news TV, particularly Arabic TV which involves lots of reporting on the situation in Israel. (Which is notably, NOT well reported in the US.)
I think the two larger trends were the extended drought signficantly increasing food scarcity and costs, and western nations finally turning against our cold war dictators, allowing for the colonial national borders to be challenged. That has been happening from Tunisia to Pakistan.
That’s from outside of France, yes.
Basically, the middle east has been propped up as an artificial construct by western nations for decades. Once the cold war ended, our tolerance to constantly dump strategic money and influence into these nations faded. Democracy is a noble goal, but self-governance carries a lot of challenges, particularly when you have centuries-old disagreements within your national borders.
Absolutely. No disagreement from me. The immediate problem is 1) French unemployment, 2) Israel (in particular the settler war that has been going since the summer), and the Daesh situation is NOT helping.
max
[‘The attackers seem to have spoken fluent francais.’]
@schrodinger’s cat: Checking wikipedia to refresh my memory. France did get itself involved in Lebanon in mid 1800s, but due to European intervention after Ottomans had trouble controlling, or pretended to have trouble controlling, massacres of Christian during a series of religious civil wars in the Lebanon. Anyway, I don’t think the same as French colonization of North Africa.
@max: Thank you. I’m glad I wasn’t just imagining the US media being irresponsible.
153.
? Martin
@redshirt: Josh wasn’t there. He’s not touring with the band since I think QoSA is working on a new album.
I like Kyuss as well. And I wouldn’t mind another Them Crooked Vultures album either. Uneven, but New Fang makes up for a lot – just brilliant stuff by Grohl.
I did catch Paul saying Dem states have more inequality than GOP states, which is BS.
For the most part that’s true, if you rank states by income Gini coefficient, simply because the Dem states are richer and have more urban areas in them, and really really rich people are more likely to live there. So general American wealth inequality is reflected by them, and there’s not really a lot a state can do about that, given, say, the practical political limits on state income tax. The three highest are New York, Connecticut and Massachusetts.
BUT. There are some states near the top in income inequality that are also quite poor (and red). Louisiana has a Gini as high as Massachusetts, and Alabama and Mississippi are not far behind. Which is horrifying when you consider the implications for the people at the bottom.
A lot of this is probably down to race. The lowest-inequality states tend to be very white and more sparsely populated, which are things that contribute to Republican politics. But some of them are states that now tend to vote Democratic in national elections (Iowa, NH, Wisconsin). And another low-Gini one is Hawaii, a very special case.
161.
dedc79
@max: maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but where do the people who committed this atrocity fit in your take on the “immediate problem” – above or below israel?
I have trouble accepting that a terrorist attack in France on french civilians can or should be attributed to the situation in Israel. And what makes you think you know why they did this?
I did catch Paul saying Dem states have more inequality than GOP states, which is BS.
That’s probably true, actually. In general, high-end jobs in red states tend to be pretty shit. Lots of relatively low-wage non-union jobs and the big salaries tend to be pulled down by pro sports (assuming your state has one) and the occasional CEO. Aside from Kansas who has David Koch and Nebraska with Warren Buffet, most red states don’t have really high earners. CA, NY, and IL have over half of the nations billionaires. In the top 10 states with the most billionaires, only Texas is a clear red state (Florida and Ohio are purple).
But the main reason why blue states have so much accumulated wealth is that rich people generally don’t want to live in red states. Similarly, income inequality is pretty low in Afghanistan.
But you can read it and see if you reach my conclusion or not.
Edit:particularly note the change in inequality over business cycles at end of report. I see a general increase across the US, across all regions. Though, admittedly Midwest has lower increase in inequality after 2007/8 recession than other regions. And if Paul was basing his statement on NY, CT and MA, that still makes his statement BS.
Still fucked up. If you’re born somewhere, you should automatically be a citizen. Period.
As an opinion/assertion, have at it. But can you say more about why?
I’m not trying to be a jerk. I was born in Switzerland to an American dad and a Swedish mom. Why should I have been Swiss at birth? I don’t think I should have, and the Swiss gov’t agreed. I believe that if I had stayed there (my dad had residency and a work permit, but we left when I was 4 1/2 years old), and completed the standard 12 years of school, I could have applied for Swiss citizenship at age 18, having showed a desire to be pretty Swiss and stick around that long.
Otherwise? It was just an accident of corporate job location that I was born there.
Oddly, I couldn’t be Swedish. In the 60s, Swedish citizenship was patrilineal only! So much for equality (they fixed it later and I could have become Swedish, but didn’t much want to do their compulsory military service.)
168.
Goblue72
@ksmiami: Comparisons to the Shoah ARE fucking histrionic. And insulting. People need to get a grip.
169.
Tenar Darell
@jl: I think there’s a stat for that. But it’s one of those, depends on how you look at it statistics. Here’s something from June, before Rand Paul started getting involved. It’s inequality vs. distress in the comparison in the article I found, inequality is higher in states with Republican governors, but economic distress is higher in states with Democratic governors.
170.
Goblue72
@Bobby Thomson: Oh blow out your arse. Comparisons to the Jews in Poland is completely histrionic. And insulting.
Nobody has done anything yet in term of immigrants in France and some idiots on this thread are making Holocaust comparisons over some completely overblown fears of what might happen in some alternate universe.
It’s stupid, it’s completely out of proportion and its deeply insulting.
171.
RaflW
I should add to the above that I get that refugees who can’t easily re-settle back where they came from are in a very different situation than my parents. The ability to settle, to develop roots, to start to feel in place where you live does matter for people.
I am not advocating against birthright citizenship, just suggesting that for people who didn’t grow up seeing it as normal won’t have the same “it’s gotta be this way. Period.” thinking about it.
@Tenar Darell: Thanks for link to an interesting article. I will follow up on it later.
To clarify, Rand Paul said that income inequality was higher in Dem states than GOP states, and in context, the implication was that liberal policies caused inequality. But across a lot of metrics you see a mix of Dem and GOP states in all percentiles of measures of income inequality, and the causes of inequality are due to host of reasons.
And there is one metric where GOP states do dominate: high poverty rates in the South.
So, those are the reasons why I typed that Paul was emitting BS. Fact that NY and CT are very high in income inequality doesn’t change that, or a person can pick a proportion somewhat greater than 50 percent of Dem states in top ten of one or two metrics of inequality doesn’t change fact that Paul was pumping out BS. IMHO. People are free to disagree.
This is Balloon Juice; why would you feel it necessary to say this?
174.
Goblue72
@RaflW: I think your comment was thoughtful. Our American ideas on birthright citizenship are just that – American. Which means they are in part culturally and historically informed normative standrads specific to our country. Doesn’t make them “right” or universally true.
175.
Goblue72
@Tenar Darell: Though if you look at the list of distressed cities, there’s a kinda glaring pattern – Detroit, Baltimore, Memphis, Milwaukee, etc. Cities that got the short end of the post-industrial America stick. And also cities with large African-American and/or Latino populations (Las Vegas, Fresno, Chicago, etc)
Those racial groups have much higher poverty rates, educational attainment rates, etc than the population as a whole.
Hard to pin either on Democratic mayors. Plus, when you think “Blue” city, you are taking Boston, NYC, SF, LA, Seattle, Denver, Portland, Austin. All cities doing pretty well.
176.
Matt McIrvin
@jl: I think we agree then. Of course, what Rand Paul was trying to imply (that liberalism is the real cause of inequality, liberals are big hypocrites, etc., etc.) was not true. But I think the ranking of states by income Gini coefficient was probably his source.
177.
catclub
@liberal: It is the one thing that makes us actually exceptional, and yet the right-wing people who push ‘American exceptionalism’ hate it.
178.
Matt McIrvin
@RaflW: I think the great danger in countries without jus soli citizenship is that you can get whole multi-generational communities of people living their whole lives in the country who are not citizens.
If a country doesn’t have jus soli birthright citizenship, I think it at least behooves them to try to figure out some way around this kind of situation. And some haven’t.
If we revoked it in the US along the lines of what the Republican presidential candidates are suggesting, we might well get multi-generational communities of people living here who are considered illegal immigrants and subject to deportation, because of how their great-grandparents got into the country. Very, very bad.
179.
? Martin
@redshirt: Thanks. I’m just happy that my musical tastes didn’t terminate in HS like so many of my friends.
We are free to disagree, but not all BJ commenters admit that we are free to disagree.
@Matt McIrvin:
OK, then. I do agree with you that some Dem states have far higher inequality than most. But, it is not because they have liberal public policies. And some places with big resource extraction booms, very ‘white’ by most standard, Wyoming, for example also rank quite high.
181.
Omnes Omnibus
@jl: I disagree. B-J commenters will disagree with anything, anywhere, anytime. Sometimes just for sport.
182.
Matt McIrvin
@catclub: Actually, most countries in the Americas have some sort of jus soli citizenship. Like presidential-congressional government systems, it’s one of those things that makes the US seem exceptional if you just compare it to European democracies, but not so exceptional if you include Latin America. (And, in this case, Canada.)
183.
Adam L Silverman
@Gin & Tonic: Depends. For a long time after 9-11 CNN’s security analyst/advisor was a retired Green Beret senior NCO. I knew him. Very sharp guy. His problem at CNN was that when he’d line up a subject matter expert the producers would often not follow through and get them on the air in favor of someone with a big name, which often included inflated credentials, because they didn’t want to risk ratings.
” we might well get multi-generational communities of people living here who are considered illegal immigrants and subject to deportation, because of how their great-grandparents got into the country. Very, very bad. ”
Good point. If Trump is elected and doesn’t get ‘the best most fantastic’ people to write the law, or constitutional amendment, who knows how many nice white people will have to go rummaging through their past to find out the status of their umpty-ump great grand whatevers to find out whether they need to dodge the very humane Trump deportation squads.
185.
? Martin
@jl: It depends a lot on what you are measuring. If you have a strong middle class, then the fact that you have a pile of billionaires isn’t that big of a problem because the general population isn’t struggling. But if you have a lot of people at the margins, then almost any concentrated wealth is a problem.
And probably more important than that is the trend – if workers can’t get ahead (particularly if you have a conservative party that will blame and punish them for that situation) and the wealth keep getting richer, that’s what people will react to. That’s a fairly difficult thing to measure because it’s based on people’s perceptions more than any direct, quantitative measure.
@? Martin: You might be interested in some of the trend charts in the linked report. If the trend is the issue, we all, every blessed Red or Blue one of us, are living in places that are getting more unequal, and at an increasing rapid rate.
187.
Adam L Silverman
@schrodinger’s cat: If this is borne out, then this is really problematic. The Mumbai attacks had the hallmark of the Naxalite separatist movement. They’re an ideologically Maoist movement. However, that attack was carried out by elements of the separatist and terrorist groups from Jammu and Kashmir. This drove the question that I’ve never seen anyone answer: did the Jammu and Kashmiri terrorists simply adopt the Naxalite tactics because they are effective in an urban setting and they wanted to throw the Indian security forces off their scent? Or did they purposefully make a connection with the Naxalites and seek training from them on how to conduct that attack?
A friend of a friend was in the Bataclan. First my friend said she was shot in the leg; he was angry and upset about it, but glad she was okay. Later he learned that her boyfriend was there as well, and was killed. Died in her arms. I don’t know her myself, but as you can imagine my friend is a mess.
Very, very sad.
189.
max
@jl: We are free to disagree, but not all BJ commenters admit that we are free to disagree.
We are free to disagree and if it gets really stupid or it involves UNLIMITED CORPORATE CONTRIBUTIONS, I’m breaking out the flamethrower.
Le Monde.fr (Google translating):
According Soren Seelow, our reporter to the Ministry of the Interior Place Beauvau eight attackers died: four in Bataclan, 3 of which were detonated, 3 at Stade de France who blew themselves up and probably Voltaire Boulevard, which would also detonated. The conditional is required because given the confusion of the crime scenes, DNA test results will take time to identify them.
Here is the chronology of events as reconstructed by our reviewer: It starts with three explosions in Saint-Denis near the Stade de France in the time span of half an hour: 21:20, 21:30 21:53. At first the three attackers blew up explosive belts. But they miss their shot and do only one victim.
The chronology is then less precise, but the police find that the attacks follow a line, a “coherent route” around the Bataclan. The chronological order of the attacks, however, not known: – rue de la Fontaine to the King, angle rue du Faubourg du Temple: 5 dead, 8 injured in absolute emergency [critical condition] – Alibert street: 12 dead, 10 injured in absolute emergency – 253 Boulevard Voltaire: a priori, a terrorist would have blown up no casualties – In front of the bar Belle team to 92 rue de Charonne: 19 dead, 14 injured in fierce urgency – At Bataclan 4 attackers kill the guards, enter the auditorium, commit carnage. Three blow themselves up at the time of the assault. The fourth was killed during the assault. A total of 8 assailants, 7 are made to explode
The point of the events of the night at 5:45:
– Six simultaneous attacks struck the capital, Friday, November 13th.
– Assessment: At least 120 people died. Eight of the attackers were killed, seven of which would be made explode.
– Timeline: First three explosions sounded in Saint-Denis near the Stade de France, during the match France-Allemagne.Les three assailants detonated belts explosives. They do only one victim.
– The chronology is then imprecise, but five other Parisian locations are affected: rue de la Fontaine au Roi (5 dead); rue Bichat (12 deaths); Boulevard Voltaire (a terrorist death); rue de Charonne (19 deaths); Bataclan (over 70 people).
max
[‘One wonders if any Republican candidates for president will be ‘made to explode’.’]
190.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: It makes sense that a group seeking to attempt a terrorist attack would look to the tactics of another group that was successful in similar circs.
I may be prejudiced – pace catclub – but I spent a good deal of time in Paris and I have strong family connection to France. This one has gutted me. I really hope (and trust) that the French will handle this better than we did 9/11. Fuck the fucking assholes.
197.
Zinsky
While I grieve with our French brothers and sisters, I hope the media says as little about this incident as possible. Publicity is what the vile barbarians who did this want. I have noticed that some blogs that I read (e.g. Hullabaloo) haven’t even mentioned it. I’m sure CNN will cover it 24/7 until the next mass killing. I fear what will happen if another large-scale terrorist attack occurs on American soil. That could mean permanent martial law and the end of what little freedoms we still have.
198.
CaseyL
TaMara – love your Bixby updates! What a sweet young fellow he’s become! And those enormous paws!…Another thing I learned about Danes many years ago is they’re firmly convinced they’re lapdogs. It’s hilarious to see a 100+-pound dog insist on climbing/curling/backing into/trying to fit into one’s lap.
schrodinger's cat
The style of the attacks seems similar to those carried out in Mumbai in Nov 2008.
rikyrah
Benny ✔ @bennyjohnson
Commentary from terror expert on CNN: “The terrorists have read Snowden. They know not to use their phones. We cannot predict anything now.”
6:36 PM – 13 Nov 2015
max
French fans being evac’ed from stadium singing La Marseille
max
[‘118 dead at Bataclan.’]
Steeplejack
@John Cole:
To answer your Twitter question, the band at the Bataclan was the Eagles of Death Metal.
rikyrah
Dan Holloway
@RFCdan
To people blaming refugees for attacks in Paris tonight. Do you not realise these are the people the refugees are trying to run away from..?
JMG
Dear John: On Twitter, which I don’t use, you asked what band. It was Eagles of Death Metal.
Hungry Joe
A whole new level.
This could happen damn near anywhere — just takes people willing to do it.
I heard that Newt has opined that if only some of the concert-goers had been armed, well, it would have been a different story. With the current crop the GOP is offering up, I’d all but forgotten just what a hateful, putrescent blob of slime he is.
max
@rikyrah: “The terrorists have read Snowden. They know not to use their phones. We cannot predict anything now.”
Assholes.
SkyNews feed
max
[‘…’]
Carol
Are you closing the blog?
SiubhanDuinne
@max:
Somehow that makes me think of the Dueling Anthems scene from Casablanca.
Don’t know what it is particularly about La Marseillaise, but there is just something wonderfully defiant about it. A bloody, melodious “fuck you” en français.
So, good for them!
Rob
@Hungry Joe#7:
I saw Gingrich’s statement on Twitter. Disgusting.
Mike J
@SiubhanDuinne:
We’ll water our fields with their blood is pretty fucking defiant.
lamh36
CNN now reporting at least 149 dead…from info from local Paris news sources.
Mary G
Horrifying, yes.
pacem appellant
Ma pauvre cité. Aux armes, en effet.
srv
Tour bus brakes failed in Union Square, San Francisco. Lot of injured.
ksmiami
Not sure there is a place for religion in modern life. Does more harm than good
SiubhanDuinne
@Mike J:
Oui, d’accord.
A guy
And to think the president at Missouri go run out because of alleged words that men couldn’t handle
SiubhanDuinne
@srv:
Oh, just fuck this day.
lamh36
I’m trying to find good coverage on tv, but people are using sources to say that this seems like SIS or ISIL or Al Queda, when no one has any solid leads…
Does anyone know who did this?
max
@SiubhanDuinne: Don’t know what it is particularly about La Marseillaise, but there is just something wonderfully defiant about it. A bloody, melodious “fuck you” en français.
Ate my reply. AMEN!
120 dead at Bataclan, 40 dead elsewhere, 160 total.
max
[‘TK.’]
Corner Stone
@rikyrah: Are you posting this ironically or unironically?
Ruckus
@ksmiami:
Looking through history and even accounting for the solace that many take from religions, that statement could have been said about many, many times/events in the history of the world. Religions are a human construct and as such they are subject to all the foibles of same.
MomSense
@lamh36:
It’s too soon.
Emma
@SiubhanDuinne: whenever I see that scene I get teary eyed. Don’t really even know why.
Elizabelle
@SiubhanDuinne: It’s Neil Young’s birthday.
Suspect he’s not having a good one.
Amir Khalid
Since it’s Open Thread:
The server connection glitches are getting more and more frequent. They seem to be happening to me every few minutes. What’s going on over there?
lamh36
@MomSense: Oh, I know.
It’s why I was saying the on air coverage is using “sources”. I figured no one really knows, but hasn’t stopped them from speculation
Corner Stone
Really not the best time for server stasis.
ksmiami
@Ruckus: As I said – as of right now, religion is more of a cancer than a cure. – I won’t be surprised if France removes its Muslim populace. Ugly stuff is about to happen
Iowa Old Lady
@Hungry Joe: When police or military go into a building, one of the things they worry about is friendly fire. It happens. I can’t imagine the consequences of a bunch of armed civilians shooting up a theater in an attempt to stave off terrorists.
Elizabelle
Me wrong. Neil Young’s birthday was yesterday. November 12.
ThresherK
There’s a CONCACAF qualifier on TV, in St. Louis. US hosting St Vincent & Grenadines, 5-1 after 60 minutes.
The crowd sounds understandably subdued.
jon
@lamh36: I wish the know-it-all brigade would know basic information before saying it’s So-and-So or Whosywhatsits, because even if they’re right about this being related to Syrian refugees that doesn’t even say if it’s Sunnis or Shiites. It could be some elderly Algerian torture victims from the 1960s for all the definitive intelligence I’ve heard.
I’ve already seen complaints about Obama’s statement, not that he didn’t use “terrorism” (he did) but that he didn’t use “Islamist” (I’m guessing he didn’t, but I don’t care since the term is pretty meaningless aside from right wing talking point criticism checklists.) Just wait a day and there will be youtube videos and more claiming credit, how great their cause is, and whatnot. Just give it a day.
EconWatcher
@ksmiami:
France is about 7.5% Muslim, so that’s not going to happen. However, only a fool would bet against the National Front now.
SiubhanDuinne
@Emma:
I do too.
Every.
Single.
Time.
mdblanche
@Amir Khalid: http://allthingsd.com/files/2012/12/technical_difficulties.jpg
Fair Economist
@Iowa Old Lady:
I can. Lots more dead civilians, and no dead terrorists, because they’d have come in body armor. Armed civilians don’t help the US with its endless parade of spree shootings.
Marc
@ksmiami: ten percent of the population is Muslim. Not happening.
max
Did I piss in this blog’s Wheaties this morning?
Front pages from UK & France
max
[‘Jeez.’]
sparrow
@ksmiami: Agreed. I know this is an opinion that puts me at odds with 90% of the world, but there *is* something dangerous, or perhaps damaging, about tolerating and encouraging totally irrational beliefs. Today it’s the irrational belief that you can talk to the invisible sky fairy and he’ll make the football game go your way, tomorrow it’s 40 virgins as a reward for blowing up infidels. Yes, I know, tons of people believe irrational things without going suicidal, but it’s still a weakening of the rational mind. And there are plenty of other fonts of irrational belief abound (particularly in the tribal thinking of politics), so I don’t pick on religion only. I still wish it would quietly go away.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
Horrifying. Pretty much sums it up, Cole.
@ksmiami:
This may be an understatement, especially given Le Pen.
max
Hollande arriving at Bataclan.
5 attackers dead. 120 dead at Bataclan (unconfirmed), 40 dead elsewhere, plus attackers. 165.
max
[‘…’]
Amir Khalid
The BBC’s sports editor says that as of 02:30 Paris time, the German Fußballmannschaft are still in the Stade de France. Presumably there’s a curfew on so they can’t go back to the hotel. President Hollande was called out of the France-Germany friendly because of the terrorist attacks.
goblue72
@EconWatcher: And there is the most likely outcome. These kind of events, framed by the villains amongst us as an “attack on the
FatherlandHomeland” – are far more likely to engender fascism than anything else.max
NYPD on heightened alert, along with port authority.
State of emergency in France.
Effective immediately, the cabinet said the authorities would have the power to, among other things:
– order the temporary closure of places of public assembly like concert halls and theaters;
– impose house arrest on anyone considered dangerous;
– confiscate weapons;
– conduct certain kinds of searches of premises with more leeway.
The Paris police prefecture later announced in a Twitter posting that all public street events and demonstrations were suspended until further notice.
max
[‘BK.’]
Emerald
Here is a link to live coverage on France 24, in English. I get it on my Roku player, with the Nowhere Channel. But here it is on the interwebz: http://www.france24.com/en/livefeed
lamh36
sfj on twitter
Joel
Fucking terrible, what else can I say?
mdblanche
@Marc: Ten percent of the population in Poland before WWII was Jewish…
goblue72
@Emerald: Thanks. Interestingly, Canadian PM was on making an extremely measured statement, bilingually of course.
Followed by the newscasters discussing tweets from Judith Miller and Newt Gingrich. With the newscasters then stating “What are they talking about? A Wild West shoot-out. Some people just take advantage of these situations. Shame on you Newt Gingrich, shame on you.”
ksmiami
@Marc: Based on studying the history of Europe never say never
goblue72
@ksmiami: Its not 1935. Save the histrionics, please.
goblue72
@mdblanche: And down the rabbit hole of stupid histrionics we go!
max
@efgoldman: That makes about as much sense as Trump and the Opossum on his head deporting 11 million undocumented immigrants from the US.
Speaking of horrible, TPM:
max
[‘Well, GEE. It IS Friday the 13th.’]
ksmiami
@efgoldman: I think you fail to see the major differences between the US and our European counterparts. Here, people blend in, contribute, strive. In the suburbs of Paris, things are not so simple. And in the long run, there is no path to full citizenship in France no matter how long you’ve lived there. At least we have birthright citizenship and it makes a huge difference.
JPL
@goblue72: I was watching that.
According to the AJC the band members heard the shots and went out behind the stage. They notified family members that they are in a police station and safe.
The drummer is from Atlanta.
Peale
@max: what. I thought Rubio was surging! I was told by good sources that Jeb needed to spend unlimited sums to destroy Rubio.
max
Charlie Pierce:
Germany offer military aid to France.
Sarkozy says the terrorists have declared war on France.
French presidential palace clarifies: borders not closed, but imposing border controls.
CNN official: 112 at theater, 14 restaurant, 19 bar, 4 stadium & 4 on a separate street.
max
[‘All known terrorist neutralized.’]
mtiffany
@lamh36:
live stream from France 24 (English) just the facts, no supposition, no agendas
http://www.france24.com/en/20151114-live-blog-string-deadly-shootings-rock-paris
ksmiami
@goblue72: I wouldn’t call Le Pen’s movement histrionics. And I’m not talking 1935, but a shift rightward in Europe that has large scale ramifications.
max
@Peale: what. I thought Rubio was surging! I was told by good sources that Jeb needed to spend unlimited sums to destroy Rubio.
He IS surging, in front of Jeb who is sinking, so that nets out as… not much.
max
[‘But he is accelerating away from Jeb, in an Einsteinian sense.’]
lamh36
@jricole
Dear MSM CT “experts” this was not a ‘brilliantly executed’ ‘military’ operation; it was murder of soft targets who don’t shoot back
max
Live24 is great, SkyNews (also good) is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y60wDzZt8yg.
max
[‘SkyNews may be a bit ahead.’]
SiubhanDuinne
@JPL:
Did not know that. One way or another, there’s always a local connection to international stories, isn’t there?
Baud
Quelle horreur.
lamh36
beltane
@Baud: Now more than ever, our country needs Baud as our leader.
mtiffany
@lamh36:
France24 reporting ‘at least 120 dead’ at Bataclan alone, including the 26 others killed in shootings around Paris and the 11 in a cafe.
http://www.france24.com/fr/20151113-attaques-a-paris-suivez-situation-direct
max
AP: Raw: Security Forces Move In On Paris Theater (actually, a series of clips).
max
[‘No one can make up their mind on how many killed.’]
beltane
@ksmiami: Birthright citizenship does make a difference. If you are born here you will never be a foreigner under the law. Why the Republicans want to create a class of native born non-Americans is beyond me.
redshirt
Sorry to sound cold, but 120 dead by gun violence is what, a week in America? A couple of days?
And yet this will change many things, as nothing changes in America.
max
max
[‘Because fuck Swift Boaters.’]
ksmiami
@beltane: Exactly – it’s one of the keys to our nation’s success. And one of the reasons why Europe has huge integration issues.
lamh36
Ok, now watching Maddow.
She’s good at this type of just stating the facts types coverage.
I was wondering why I kept seeing a video of a soccer match but apparently, you can actually hear one of the bombs exploding at the stadium
Damn…
Baud
@beltane:
Thank you, but I have complete confidence in Obama. We just need to make sure we step up when it comes time to choose his successor.
max
Jasmine demonstrates the Bataclan in horror: “I saw many dead bodies around me” (en francaise)
Survivor of Bataclan massacre: “To survive I crawled under a body then I went to a restroom. I was shot in the ankle. I have never seen so many dead people around me in my life. I am traumatized.”
max
[‘News in slow crawl.’]
mai naem mobile
@srv: No doubt its Obamas fault that he didn’t get those brakes fixed.
Elizabelle
Watching John Carpenter’s “They Live” on Encore. As good a programming choice after tonight’s sad events as any.
Carpenter described it as his “primal scream” at living in the Reagan years.
lamh36
Rachel pointing out that despite online reports, not all gunmen have been “neutralized” there may be more at large…so this isn’t over.
cnnbrk
BMFTV: French officials say gunmen are still at large in Paris attacks. Five have been “neutralized.”
magurakurin
@Emma:
I do too. It is one of the greatest scenes of film propaganda ever. It is very powerful. It is also just a great movie scene. One thing I like about it is the fact that it is actually Rick that instigates the trouble, not Victor Lasslo. Victor tells the band to play, but the conductor looks up at Rick, and Rick nods okay. It is clear that if Rick had said no, they never would have played the song. A great scene in a great movie.
lamh36
mdblanche
Maddow just reporting one of the members of the American band playing at Bataclan was killed.
lamh36
Ruckus
@max:
It might have been me. But it sounds like maybe several of us. I would like to know if it’s me, what I did to fuck it up so badly. Possibly I might stop doing that.
D58826
@max: Somebody made the same comment about AL Quida after 9/11. Th NY Times had published an article about our ability to intercept cell phone communications. Somehow I think most terrorists have figured out to keep their communications secure. They don’t need Snowdon to tell them.
raven
@SiubhanDuinne: He’s from Athens. Julian Dorio
“Julian started drumming at the age of 6, as an original member of the Flying Dorios. The band included his father and his older brother, Michael Dorio of Trances Arc. A high school graduate of The Westminster Schools in Atlanta and a college graduate of the University of Georgia, Dorio currently resides in Georgia. The town of Athens has been home for both him and Gispert, the band’s lead singer, since they were in school there. “
SiubhanDuinne
@magurakurin:
It is that.
Yes, which is why it doesn’t necessarily or immediately come across as propaganda.
max
@lamh36: Rachel pointing out that despite online reports, not all gunmen have been “neutralized” there may be more at large…so this isn’t over.
Yeah – they say ‘accomplices’ – not necessarily more gunmen.
@Ruckus: It might have been me. But it sounds like maybe several of us. I would like to know if it’s me, what I did to fuck it up so badly. Possibly I might stop doing that.
I think it’s the PHP barf on the server, but it’s totally unpredictable. It does seems to happen often with higher load.
max
[‘Is two quotes OK?’]
SiubhanDuinne
@raven:
Forgive my ignorance, I never even heard of this band until a few hours ago. Doesn’t diminish my horror or sadness.
max
Revised death toll from Le Figaro: 210 total.
BILD: French police guarding Notre Dame.
max
[‘Don’t hit me server, I didn’t do it!’]
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Ruckus: I believe it was said earlier that there’s something up with the PHP on the server and that correcting it is the hands of the hosting company. Sometimes ya just gotta sit and wait on other people.
raven
@SiubhanDuinne: It’s where he is from.
Frankensteinbeck
@rikyrah:
Christ. I am no fan of Snowden, but CNN, you should be ashamed of yourselves both for the stupidity and the dickishness of saying that on national news.
max
Police Prefect Michelle Caddow (sp?): Four attackers in Bataclan, sprayed machine gun fire at cafes then charged into Bataclan, took hostages. When police counter-attack came, attackers blew themselves up with suicide belts, taking four more with them. Addition separate attack in second location, possibly mobile. Police are looking for any possible accomplices, besides 5 attackers already killed. (They’re looking for helpers.)
max
[‘TK.’]
D58826
@max: Listening to some of the analysis on MSNBC and it is very depressing. Issues such as the large number of unemployed young people, a Muslim population that isn’t well integrated into the local society, the rise of anti-Semitism, the rise of the hard right nativist political parties, whither the EU can survive,and the huge flow of refugees from failed states in the middle east and Africa. There are so many threads running thru these events that it may well be impossible to address them. American politicians, esp the GOP, keep talking about strong American leadership but they never get into details about what to do (other than bombing somebody). Depressing
gogol's wife
John Cole’s top tweet there is a response to a particularly vile tweet from Judith Miller. Why is she showing her face in public?
jl
@Frankensteinbeck: CNN has no shame in pumping out questionable BS in attempts to pander to an audience.
raven
@D58826: Most analysis of 120 people being killed will be depressing don’t you think?
Frankensteinbeck
@D58826:
This has very, very little to do with us. Iraq maybe stirred things up a little more, but France has its own issues with Islam, and has for a long time. America is not the center of the world, source of all things.
lamh36
Another Holocene Human
@ksmiami: My thought is that people will kill each other over land or money or imperialism or even perceived or real lack of respect, racism, and so on. But there’s something about religion, I think because it latches onto this childhood programming (god = daddy, and so on), that makes people get even more irrational and locked into their positions and likely to see any slight as a loss of face worth dying and killing for. There is no provocation like desecration of a sacred object, space, or idea.
I don’t even think all religions are this way but I suspect they all get this way, as parents teach their kid their religion and it settles in the next generation’s brain along with all the feelings they had about their parents when they were three and their parents were invincible and omniscient and their sole means of support. Name a religion supposed to be all cool and zen and shit and you can find fundies of it.
Maybe it’s not religion itself but this whole process of teaching religious doctrine to children that causes all the problems.
But the effect is real. It really does make people act even stupider than whatever underlying casus belli was already driving them to act.
SiubhanDuinne
@raven:
Right, I get that. I am just not very well informed about bands, musicians, etc. outside the opera-symphonic world.
jl
@Frankensteinbeck: Outside of GOP fantasies, I think France does have an attitude towards citizenship, and how to accommodate, or not accommodate, a diverse multicultural population that resembles the GOP ideal, I think more so than other European governments. So, I wonder how that plays into repeated outbursts of violence in France. Besides terrorist attacks, were weeks of riots in poorer Paris suburbs some time ago.
I hear a lot of iffy speculation on news on it being by ISIS or an affiliated group, or has something to do with Syria.
We’ll hear a lot of knee jerk BS from US reactionaries.
max
@D58826: Issues such as the large number of unemployed young people, a Muslim population that isn’t well integrated into the local society, the rise of anti-Semitism, the rise of the hard right nativist political parties, whither the EU can survive,and the huge flow of refugees from failed states in the middle east and Africa.
If EU would quit insisting on fucking the economy for some right-wing hard currency bullshit, that would help A LOT. Particularly with unemployment. Particularly with the Mahgrebis.
Separately, it would help A LOT, if fucking Bibi would quit insisting on pushing settlements and trying to claim the Temple Mount.
If we did those two things, we could maybe focus on hammering Daesh.
max
[‘Assholes. Elite assholes are fucking everything up.’]
liberal
@beltane:
Damn straight.
There are many things screwed up about the good ole US of A, but this is one thing where we’ve been way ahead of much of the rest of the world, including much (most?) of Europe.
This crap where you can be N-th generation born in country X, yet not a citizen of X, whereas someone with a “blood” connection can easily become a citizen, is flat-out naseating.
jl
@max:
” If EU would quit insisting on fucking the economy for some right-wing hard currency bullshit, that would help A LOT. Particularly with unemployment. Particularly with the Mahgrebis. ”
That is a good point, and I’ve heard that aspect of rise of right wing in Europe discussed in our corporate media. Probably for obvious reasons. Why not talk about scary foreign people?
mtiffany
@max: Not trying to get into a pissing match with you but LeFigaro is reporting 126 dead, approx. 210 wounded — 83 critical, 132 ‘urgent’
and France24 still reporting ‘at least 120 dead’
all numbers are of course being reported ‘provisional’ (preliminary)
Peale
@Frankensteinbeck: but the U.S. Hasn’t done enough to ensure that terrorists don’t infiltrate and attack France.
I guess that’s the argument.
Villago Delenda Est
@rikyrah: The assumption that the perpetrators are stupid enough to use their phones, even without Snowdon’s revelations, makes this terrorist “expert” suspect.
Osama bin Laden didn’t use phones or other modern communications technology. He used couriers. The most secure means there is. It’s slow, but it’s by far the most secure.
Gin & Tonic
@gogol’s wife: Some of the responses to her Tweet are outstanding. I wonder if she ever even looks at them?
jl
@liberal: My understanding is that birthright citizenship is mostly an Anglo-Saxon and Western Hemisphere thing.
Wikipedia has a list of countries that have it in varying degrees, under what I think is the Latin name for it.
Jus soli
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli
max
@jl: I hear a lot of iffy speculation on news on it being by ISIS or an affiliated group, or has something to do with Syria.
Reportedly the Bataclan attackers screamed about Syria and Iraq when attacking. Not clear if they’re Daesh or some other (local?) assholes.
We’ll hear a lot of knee jerk BS from US reactionaries.
As Paris carnage unfolds, conservatives lash out at Obama, immigrants and college students
max
[‘…’]
Villago Delenda Est
@Another Holocene Human: If the prospects for just continued survival were not so bleak, religion wouldn’t be able alone to motivate like this for most people.
Gin & Tonic
@Villago Delenda Est: I’ve always had the suspicion that those who appear on TV as “terrorism experts” are the ones who couldn’t handle it in the real operational world.
Ruckus
Now it’s eating my comments. ARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
max
@mtiffany: Not trying to get into a pissing match with you but LeFigaro is reporting 126 dead, approx. 210 wounded — 83 critical, 132 ‘urgent’
That’s what I saw – victim of a misworded report. Sorry.
max
[‘Meanwhile, on imgur.‘]
? Martin
@SiubhanDuinne:
The band is mostly a side project for more established musicians. One of the co-founders is Josh Homme who is lead singer for Queens of the Stone Age and Them Crooked Vultures. As a side project they mostly surface in the down time for the members, put out an album, tour, and then vanish for a number of years.
QaSA is a solid band (multiple grammy noms), and Eagles gets a decent following from that audience. Both bands are from the desert here in SoCal and basically developed as part of the Coachella scene.
Omnes Omnibus
@ksmiami:
Actually France does have birthright citizenship. It just takes two generations. One needs to be born in France and have at least one parent who was born in France. It is not as simple as our system, but there is a path to citizenship for immigrant families.
jl
@max:
” As Paris carnage unfolds, conservatives lash out at Obama, immigrants and college students ”
I’m definitely skipping the next GOP pres debate.
Probably, overpaid DFH philosophers, jealous of all the buck welders are pulling down, are to blame.
? Martin
@Gin & Tonic:
Yep. Just as anyone who open-carries would sooner piss their pants than return fire in a real shooting.
raven
@Omnes Omnibus: When Algeria gained independence the French took the pensions from the Algerian vets living there.
raven
@? Martin: It is interesting that Dorio is their current drummer.
max
@Ruckus: Now it’s eating my comments. ARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It’s a bitch, innit? I lost four good ones a couple of hours ago. (So I reverted to copying the text before hitting post.)
I feel your pain.
max
[‘Sikhs step up. Also, The Sikhs Are A Nation!’]
jl
@Omnes Omnibus: A few generations might be too long, though.
Here is summary from the Wikipedia Jus Soli article link above:
” Children born in France (including overseas territories) to at least one foreign parent who is also born in France automatically acquire French citizenship at birth. Children born to foreign parents may request citizenship depending on their age and length of residence (see French nationality law).”
mtiffany
@max: I need to ask: are you seeing the French media assigning blame or resonsibility or motivation to any particular group, other than generic terrorism? Because everything I’m reading and hearing comes down to ‘it’s obviously terrorism, and we’re all aware of what’s going on in the news, but until we know for certain, we’re not jumping to any conclusions.”
jl
@jl:
I meant to type”
That is a good point, and I’ve NEVER heard that aspect of rise of right wing in Europe discussed in our corporate media. Probably for obvious reasons. Why not talk about scary foreign people?
Omnes Omnibus
@raven: And?
liberal
@jl:
Yeah, that’s the Latin name. You’re right, it seems like a Western Hemisphere name.
My eyes might be failing me, but I don’t see a single European state in the “unrestricted” list in that Wikipedia article. Fucked. Up.
Interesting, though: Pakistan?
schrodinger's cat
@max: Sikhs and the Marathas were the two groups that fought against the encroaching British Empire until the very end. Also too, the Mughal Empire before that.
liberal
@Omnes Omnibus:
Still fucked up. If you’re born somewhere, you should automatically be a citizen. Period.
jl
@mtiffany: I think safe to say it is terrorism. Not safe to say exactly who sponsored it or did it, Certainly not safe to blame it on race problems in the US, US college students’ response to said problems, Obama, or supposed liberal PC run amok, but I hope only Fox News is peddling that crap.
I am listening to CBS news and it seems at times to assume that radical fundy Islamicists did it, but not going further than that.
schrodinger's cat
Wasn’t Syria a part of the French Empire? Did they part on good terms?
liberal
@schrodinger’s cat:
I could be mistaken, but I thought that France carved Lebanon out of Syria. Have a more-Christian enclave or something.
Omnes Omnibus
@liberal: I agree witht eh concept of birthright citizenship, but the people up thread talking about there being no way to become a citizen are wrong. the problems in les banlieues are not due to the lack of a path to citizenship. They are due to poverty and poverty related crime.
lamh36
? Martin
@max:
I don’t think either of these necessarily are related to this.
I think the two larger trends were the extended drought signficantly increasing food scarcity and costs, and western nations finally turning against our cold war dictators, allowing for the colonial national borders to be challenged. That has been happening from Tunisia to Pakistan.
Basically, the middle east has been propped up as an artificial construct by western nations for decades. Once the cold war ended, our tolerance to constantly dump strategic money and influence into these nations faded. Democracy is a noble goal, but self-governance carries a lot of challenges, particularly when you have centuries-old disagreements within your national borders.
EZSmirkzz
The best way to battle the darkness, whether domestic or foreign, is to leave your light on.
Of all people, I could rail against the neo-cons inability to consider the consequences of their policy and the conservative hate mongers for their utter lack of human decency, but it serves me no good, and does them no ill.
Keep your thoughts, ( and prayers, if you offer them,) on the victims, not on yourself or the analysts, or the afore mentioned groups. Perhaps you may embarrass the Christians at home by loving your neighbors as yourself. Perhaps you can shame them by loving your enemies as well, although I think I’m asking too much. Try it, you’ll like it.
jl
@liberal: FYWP ate my comments. Lebanon long a scene of vicious religious sectarian violence, and that drew in French involvement after some massacres.. France got seriously involved in 1920s in Lebanon and Syria after Ottoman Empire collapsed in WWI. I don’t think same thing as colonizing North Africa.
Edit: I don’t think Lebanon was enough of a thing to be carved up. Awful mess of viciously fighting religious sects for a long time.
max
@jl: I’m definitely skipping the next GOP pres debate.
Haven’t seen one yet, no intention of starting. Leave it to the people GETTING PAID UNLIKE ME to listen to that horseshit.
Probably, overpaid DFH philosophers, jealous of all the buck welders are pulling down, are to blame.
This is fucking year FIVE of the fucking thing with the fucking welders. The first time I heard it was when they closed the welding program at distance CC operation at a local high school in Erie, PA. Supposedly this was stupid. And it was stupid: due to austerity!
At any rate, I researched the thing and it turned out there was in article in the local paper about the shortage of welders. The shipbuilding industry in Erie had collapsed, so experience welders were scarce on the ground, so this dude decided to restart some shipbuilding in Erie and couldn’t find welders. He eventually he got some from Mobile because shipbuilding in AL was in the toilet.
There was this other asshole who was bitching about not being able to hire welders with a year’s experience at 16-18 an hour and he was complaining it was because of unemployment insurance. (Also, he drug-tested.) He said people were lazy and living off the government.
The CC local welder program in the high school had shut down because of austerity AND because they were building a nice new HS for the rich kids in the rich kids suburb with a nice football stadium and stuff…for 100 million.
The welder meme kept going and going and going, and even Thomas Friedman joined into the fun. But now they think welders get paid more than philosophy majors, even though they do not.
In sum: long-lived bullshit.
max
[‘Also, Obama is a muslim, have you heard?’]
max
@mtiffany: are you seeing the French media assigning blame or resonsibility or motivation to any particular group, other than generic terrorism? Because everything I’m reading and hearing comes down to ‘it’s obviously terrorism, and we’re all aware of what’s going on in the news, but until we know for certain, we’re not jumping to any conclusions.”
Non. Just reporting what the attackers screamed.
max
[‘{shrug}’]
? Martin
@raven: Not really. Josh is a really, really collaborative guy and I get the sense that Jesse Hughes is as well. Dave Grohl drummed for QoSA for a while, after all.
lamh36
lamh36
schrodinger's cat
WP eated my comment or else I angered God Mode or God Median. Anyway, France ended up controlling Syria after WWI just like Britain ended up with Palestine. So in a way the after effects of WWI are still with us
redshirt
@? Martin: OMG I love QotSA – I’ve met Josh. I saw him play in the band that was the genesis of QofSA – Kyuss.
If you’ve never heard Kyuss, check them. Hard and sloggy.
Now this hits home.
jl
@max: The first two GOP debates were more than enough for me. Following Dem debates easier on my psyche, and will do that now that they are going.
But, I couldn’t help dipping into clips of news stories on the train wrecks. More lies and BS than can be counted. Many have not even been covered, because too many moles to whack.
I did catch Paul saying Dem states have more inequality than GOP states, which is BS.
Also, the crazy philosopher bashing. Obama introduces major program to push public community college and idiot Rubio complains that not enough support of vocational education. Shit, that is half of what public community colleges do, and cheaper and far better than the private for-profit scams that Rubio and the GOPers would push (at least if those scams can be saved from bankruptcy fast enough).
lamh36
Asshole says what? Ugh, I never really liked Rob Lowe…even before he had sex with a teenager (I know age of consent in GA was 16 but stilll…ugh). Sometimes there is NO shame in being SILENT Rob.
@Variety 41s42 seconds ago
Rob Lowe: “Oh, NOW France closes its borders.”
max
@? Martin: I don’t think either of these necessarily are related to this.
I think they are. French unemployment is very very high and French Muslim unemployment is higher still. If non-Muslim French were employed at normal rates, French Muslim unemployment would be much lower and you would have fewer people watching lots of news TV, particularly Arabic TV which involves lots of reporting on the situation in Israel. (Which is notably, NOT well reported in the US.)
I think the two larger trends were the extended drought signficantly increasing food scarcity and costs, and western nations finally turning against our cold war dictators, allowing for the colonial national borders to be challenged. That has been happening from Tunisia to Pakistan.
That’s from outside of France, yes.
Basically, the middle east has been propped up as an artificial construct by western nations for decades. Once the cold war ended, our tolerance to constantly dump strategic money and influence into these nations faded. Democracy is a noble goal, but self-governance carries a lot of challenges, particularly when you have centuries-old disagreements within your national borders.
Absolutely. No disagreement from me. The immediate problem is 1) French unemployment, 2) Israel (in particular the settler war that has been going since the summer), and the Daesh situation is NOT helping.
max
[‘The attackers seem to have spoken fluent francais.’]
jl
@schrodinger’s cat: Checking wikipedia to refresh my memory. France did get itself involved in Lebanon in mid 1800s, but due to European intervention after Ottomans had trouble controlling, or pretended to have trouble controlling, massacres of Christian during a series of religious civil wars in the Lebanon. Anyway, I don’t think the same as French colonization of North Africa.
Règlement Organique (Mount Lebanon)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A8glement_Organique_(Mount_Lebanon)
mtiffany
@max: Thank you. I’m glad I wasn’t just imagining the US media being irresponsible.
? Martin
@redshirt: Josh wasn’t there. He’s not touring with the band since I think QoSA is working on a new album.
I like Kyuss as well. And I wouldn’t mind another Them Crooked Vultures album either. Uneven, but New Fang makes up for a lot – just brilliant stuff by Grohl.
redshirt
@? Martin: You’ve got good musical tastes!
Matt McIrvin
@ksmiami:
For now.
Darkrose
@gogol’s wife: http://crooksandliars.com/2015/11/judy-millers-despicable-paris-attack-tweet
Unfuckingbelievable. The idea that she came up with that as the news from Paris was unfolding…what a ghoul.
chopper
@? Martin:
QotSA is pretty tight. EoDM isn’t bad either. seems surreal that all this happened at one of their shows.
chopper
@? Martin:
grohl drummed and toured on Songs for the Deaf which is an insanely good record. just crazy good.
SiubhanDuinne
Accidentally had CNN on (Sirius radio — audio only).
Heard Anderson Cooper ask his guest “So, is this a wake-up call for the United States?”
Thought to myself “What the everloving fuck, Anderson!?”
Switched channel over to Rachel.
Matt McIrvin
@jl:
For the most part that’s true, if you rank states by income Gini coefficient, simply because the Dem states are richer and have more urban areas in them, and really really rich people are more likely to live there. So general American wealth inequality is reflected by them, and there’s not really a lot a state can do about that, given, say, the practical political limits on state income tax. The three highest are New York, Connecticut and Massachusetts.
BUT. There are some states near the top in income inequality that are also quite poor (and red). Louisiana has a Gini as high as Massachusetts, and Alabama and Mississippi are not far behind. Which is horrifying when you consider the implications for the people at the bottom.
A lot of this is probably down to race. The lowest-inequality states tend to be very white and more sparsely populated, which are things that contribute to Republican politics. But some of them are states that now tend to vote Democratic in national elections (Iowa, NH, Wisconsin). And another low-Gini one is Hawaii, a very special case.
dedc79
@max: maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but where do the people who committed this atrocity fit in your take on the “immediate problem” – above or below israel?
I have trouble accepting that a terrorist attack in France on french civilians can or should be attributed to the situation in Israel. And what makes you think you know why they did this?
? Martin
@jl:
That’s probably true, actually. In general, high-end jobs in red states tend to be pretty shit. Lots of relatively low-wage non-union jobs and the big salaries tend to be pulled down by pro sports (assuming your state has one) and the occasional CEO. Aside from Kansas who has David Koch and Nebraska with Warren Buffet, most red states don’t have really high earners. CA, NY, and IL have over half of the nations billionaires. In the top 10 states with the most billionaires, only Texas is a clear red state (Florida and Ohio are purple).
But the main reason why blue states have so much accumulated wealth is that rich people generally don’t want to live in red states. Similarly, income inequality is pretty low in Afghanistan.
Bobby Thomson
@goblue72: Oh, fuck off, dickhead.
jl
@Matt McIrvin:
@? Martin:
I don’t agree with your characterizations. I’m basing my charge of BS against Rand Paul based on:
THE INCREASINGLY UNEQUAL STATES OF AMERICA
Income Inequality
http://www.epi.org/publication/unequal-states/
But you can read it and see if you reach my conclusion or not.
Edit:particularly note the change in inequality over business cycles at end of report. I see a general increase across the US, across all regions. Though, admittedly Midwest has lower increase in inequality after 2007/8 recession than other regions. And if Paul was basing his statement on NY, CT and MA, that still makes his statement BS.
debbie
@gogol’s wife:
She’s got plenty of competition:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/11/twitter-paris-attacks
dedc79
@debbie: absolutely vile, but sadly not surprising at all.
RaflW
@liberal:
As an opinion/assertion, have at it. But can you say more about why?
I’m not trying to be a jerk. I was born in Switzerland to an American dad and a Swedish mom. Why should I have been Swiss at birth? I don’t think I should have, and the Swiss gov’t agreed. I believe that if I had stayed there (my dad had residency and a work permit, but we left when I was 4 1/2 years old), and completed the standard 12 years of school, I could have applied for Swiss citizenship at age 18, having showed a desire to be pretty Swiss and stick around that long.
Otherwise? It was just an accident of corporate job location that I was born there.
Oddly, I couldn’t be Swedish. In the 60s, Swedish citizenship was patrilineal only! So much for equality (they fixed it later and I could have become Swedish, but didn’t much want to do their compulsory military service.)
Goblue72
@ksmiami: Comparisons to the Shoah ARE fucking histrionic. And insulting. People need to get a grip.
Tenar Darell
@jl: I think there’s a stat for that. But it’s one of those, depends on how you look at it statistics. Here’s something from June, before Rand Paul started getting involved. It’s inequality vs. distress in the comparison in the article I found, inequality is higher in states with Republican governors, but economic distress is higher in states with Democratic governors.
Goblue72
@Bobby Thomson: Oh blow out your arse. Comparisons to the Jews in Poland is completely histrionic. And insulting.
Nobody has done anything yet in term of immigrants in France and some idiots on this thread are making Holocaust comparisons over some completely overblown fears of what might happen in some alternate universe.
It’s stupid, it’s completely out of proportion and its deeply insulting.
RaflW
I should add to the above that I get that refugees who can’t easily re-settle back where they came from are in a very different situation than my parents. The ability to settle, to develop roots, to start to feel in place where you live does matter for people.
I am not advocating against birthright citizenship, just suggesting that for people who didn’t grow up seeing it as normal won’t have the same “it’s gotta be this way. Period.” thinking about it.
jl
@Tenar Darell: Thanks for link to an interesting article. I will follow up on it later.
To clarify, Rand Paul said that income inequality was higher in Dem states than GOP states, and in context, the implication was that liberal policies caused inequality. But across a lot of metrics you see a mix of Dem and GOP states in all percentiles of measures of income inequality, and the causes of inequality are due to host of reasons.
And there is one metric where GOP states do dominate: high poverty rates in the South.
So, those are the reasons why I typed that Paul was emitting BS. Fact that NY and CT are very high in income inequality doesn’t change that, or a person can pick a proportion somewhat greater than 50 percent of Dem states in top ten of one or two metrics of inequality doesn’t change fact that Paul was pumping out BS. IMHO. People are free to disagree.
Omnes Omnibus
@jl:
This is Balloon Juice; why would you feel it necessary to say this?
Goblue72
@RaflW: I think your comment was thoughtful. Our American ideas on birthright citizenship are just that – American. Which means they are in part culturally and historically informed normative standrads specific to our country. Doesn’t make them “right” or universally true.
Goblue72
@Tenar Darell: Though if you look at the list of distressed cities, there’s a kinda glaring pattern – Detroit, Baltimore, Memphis, Milwaukee, etc. Cities that got the short end of the post-industrial America stick. And also cities with large African-American and/or Latino populations (Las Vegas, Fresno, Chicago, etc)
Those racial groups have much higher poverty rates, educational attainment rates, etc than the population as a whole.
Hard to pin either on Democratic mayors. Plus, when you think “Blue” city, you are taking Boston, NYC, SF, LA, Seattle, Denver, Portland, Austin. All cities doing pretty well.
Matt McIrvin
@jl: I think we agree then. Of course, what Rand Paul was trying to imply (that liberalism is the real cause of inequality, liberals are big hypocrites, etc., etc.) was not true. But I think the ranking of states by income Gini coefficient was probably his source.
catclub
@liberal: It is the one thing that makes us actually exceptional, and yet the right-wing people who push ‘American exceptionalism’ hate it.
Matt McIrvin
@RaflW: I think the great danger in countries without jus soli citizenship is that you can get whole multi-generational communities of people living their whole lives in the country who are not citizens.
If a country doesn’t have jus soli birthright citizenship, I think it at least behooves them to try to figure out some way around this kind of situation. And some haven’t.
If we revoked it in the US along the lines of what the Republican presidential candidates are suggesting, we might well get multi-generational communities of people living here who are considered illegal immigrants and subject to deportation, because of how their great-grandparents got into the country. Very, very bad.
? Martin
@redshirt: Thanks. I’m just happy that my musical tastes didn’t terminate in HS like so many of my friends.
jl
@Omnes Omnibus:
We are free to disagree, but not all BJ commenters admit that we are free to disagree.
@Matt McIrvin:
OK, then. I do agree with you that some Dem states have far higher inequality than most. But, it is not because they have liberal public policies. And some places with big resource extraction booms, very ‘white’ by most standard, Wyoming, for example also rank quite high.
Omnes Omnibus
@jl: I disagree. B-J commenters will disagree with anything, anywhere, anytime. Sometimes just for sport.
Matt McIrvin
@catclub: Actually, most countries in the Americas have some sort of jus soli citizenship. Like presidential-congressional government systems, it’s one of those things that makes the US seem exceptional if you just compare it to European democracies, but not so exceptional if you include Latin America. (And, in this case, Canada.)
Adam L Silverman
@Gin & Tonic: Depends. For a long time after 9-11 CNN’s security analyst/advisor was a retired Green Beret senior NCO. I knew him. Very sharp guy. His problem at CNN was that when he’d line up a subject matter expert the producers would often not follow through and get them on the air in favor of someone with a big name, which often included inflated credentials, because they didn’t want to risk ratings.
jl
@Matt McIrvin:
” we might well get multi-generational communities of people living here who are considered illegal immigrants and subject to deportation, because of how their great-grandparents got into the country. Very, very bad. ”
Good point. If Trump is elected and doesn’t get ‘the best most fantastic’ people to write the law, or constitutional amendment, who knows how many nice white people will have to go rummaging through their past to find out the status of their umpty-ump great grand whatevers to find out whether they need to dodge the very humane Trump deportation squads.
? Martin
@jl: It depends a lot on what you are measuring. If you have a strong middle class, then the fact that you have a pile of billionaires isn’t that big of a problem because the general population isn’t struggling. But if you have a lot of people at the margins, then almost any concentrated wealth is a problem.
And probably more important than that is the trend – if workers can’t get ahead (particularly if you have a conservative party that will blame and punish them for that situation) and the wealth keep getting richer, that’s what people will react to. That’s a fairly difficult thing to measure because it’s based on people’s perceptions more than any direct, quantitative measure.
jl
@? Martin: You might be interested in some of the trend charts in the linked report. If the trend is the issue, we all, every blessed Red or Blue one of us, are living in places that are getting more unequal, and at an increasing rapid rate.
Adam L Silverman
@schrodinger’s cat: If this is borne out, then this is really problematic. The Mumbai attacks had the hallmark of the Naxalite separatist movement. They’re an ideologically Maoist movement. However, that attack was carried out by elements of the separatist and terrorist groups from Jammu and Kashmir. This drove the question that I’ve never seen anyone answer: did the Jammu and Kashmiri terrorists simply adopt the Naxalite tactics because they are effective in an urban setting and they wanted to throw the Indian security forces off their scent? Or did they purposefully make a connection with the Naxalites and seek training from them on how to conduct that attack?
Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA
A friend of a friend was in the Bataclan. First my friend said she was shot in the leg; he was angry and upset about it, but glad she was okay. Later he learned that her boyfriend was there as well, and was killed. Died in her arms. I don’t know her myself, but as you can imagine my friend is a mess.
Very, very sad.
max
@jl: We are free to disagree, but not all BJ commenters admit that we are free to disagree.
We are free to disagree and if it gets really stupid or it involves UNLIMITED CORPORATE CONTRIBUTIONS, I’m breaking out the flamethrower.
Le Monde.fr (Google translating):
max
[‘One wonders if any Republican candidates for president will be ‘made to explode’.’]
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: It makes sense that a group seeking to attempt a terrorist attack would look to the tactics of another group that was successful in similar circs.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Omnes Omnibus: I disagree.
Omnes Omnibus
@BillinGlendaleCA: Fuck you, you’re fucking wrong.
Omnes Omnibus
Liz Cheney is a horrible person. Just saying.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Omnes Omnibus: No, I’m never mistaken, I once thought I was mistaken, but that was a mistake.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Omnes Omnibus: OK, I agree with you on that.
Omnes Omnibus
I may be prejudiced – pace catclub – but I spent a good deal of time in Paris and I have strong family connection to France. This one has gutted me. I really hope (and trust) that the French will handle this better than we did 9/11. Fuck the fucking assholes.
Zinsky
While I grieve with our French brothers and sisters, I hope the media says as little about this incident as possible. Publicity is what the vile barbarians who did this want. I have noticed that some blogs that I read (e.g. Hullabaloo) haven’t even mentioned it. I’m sure CNN will cover it 24/7 until the next mass killing. I fear what will happen if another large-scale terrorist attack occurs on American soil. That could mean permanent martial law and the end of what little freedoms we still have.
CaseyL
TaMara – love your Bixby updates! What a sweet young fellow he’s become! And those enormous paws!…Another thing I learned about Danes many years ago is they’re firmly convinced they’re lapdogs. It’s hilarious to see a 100+-pound dog insist on climbing/curling/backing into/trying to fit into one’s lap.
Bobby Thomson
@Goblue72: Eat shit and live, asshole.