Via Martin Longman writing at Washington Monthly, this by Michael Bender and Ben Brody over at Bloomberg:
In Alabama, one of the Bush campaign’s top targets in March, Bush has endorsements from a member of Congress, a handful of state legislators and statewide officials. Yet, in contrast with Donald Trump or Marco Rubio, Bush wasn’t able to find a full slate of delegates to run on the ballot by Friday’s deadline.
As Longman notes,
This obviously undermines Jeb’s main arguments for his own candidacy. He’s supposed to be competent and experienced. His team is supposed to know what it is doing and have a shot at matching the team the Clintons will bring to the general election contest. He’s supposed to have enough establishment support and resources to not have to worry about things like ballot access that can be a real challenge to cash-strapped and little-known candidates.
The whole Bloomberg piece is worth a read. The TL:DR version is that while the Bush folks can talk a plausible game about a targeted strategy aimed at amassing delegates (which sounds on superficial reading like an echo of the Obama 2008 mastery of the caucus/primary mix, but isn’t), life on the ground looks very different, and thoroughly unpromising for Team Exclamation Point.
That said, the clown car is full of clowns, so who knows which GOP jester will actually get to 1237 delegates. I don’t — but a while back I was willing to bet lunch money against Jeb. I’d lay more now. Quite a bit, in fact, were I a gambling man.
ETA: I do so love the Juice Commentariat. For the record: I used the term “stick a fork in him” because I thought the Secret Service might frown on a suggestion to stick a shiv in someone. Though that would certainly settle the question of whether he or she were done. [PS — Secret Service? This is a JOKE! Maybe a crappy one, but mine own.]
Image: Willem Corneliz Duyster, Carnival Clowns, c.1620
dmsilev
Let’s just sit back and admire this. Donald Trump is _out-organizing_ Jeb Bush.
Luthe
@dmsilev: Trump has a lot of stupid people fired up, which Jeb! has not accomplished. It’s easier to organize if you don’t have to work as hard to inspire people to volunteer.
rikyrah
just read this..
BWA AH AH AH AH HA HA
OH JEB….
Germy Shoemangler
Saw this on twitter:
mai naem mobile
I don’t put anything beyond the reach of Familia Bush so I won’t believe he’s done till the GOP convention. Right now I would not be surprised if the final survivor is Bush, Cruz,Kasich ,Mitt, Rubio or Trump. Carson,Fiorina and Christie are too weak/damaged. Cruz scares me because I can see Inspector Trey Clouseau sitting on some Benghazi! Hilary October surprise and a GOPr getting in. A President Cruz is enough to make me soil my underwear.
Germy Shoemangler
Massive 19 Century Cat Painting Sold For $826,000
Called “My Wife’s Lovers”
Roger Moore
And what skulduggery will be necessary to get there? It’s not the most likely outcome, but there’s a real possibility that nobody will have 1237 delegates when the primaries are done. Best guess is that would favor the establishment candidate- you can bet TPTB will be leaning on candidates and delegates to favor the establishment candidate- but it would really be up for grabs.
Surreal American
@Germy Shoemangler:
If he’s anything like his brother, Jeb would search for Baby Hitler in Australia.
Germy Shoemangler
@Surreal American: If I could upvote your comment, I would.
Amir Khalid
I was saying just yesterday, this is now Jeb’s secret campaign song.
And now, a nitpick.
This metaphor comes from baking. One sticks a fork in a cake to determine if it is done. (If the fork comes out clean, with no unbaked batter on the prongs, then the cake is done.) It’s not the next step one takes with a cake that is done. (This is not to say that I am against sticking a fork in Jeb, especially if it’s one with really sharp prongs.)
dmsilev
@Germy Shoemangler: I still want to know why killing Baby Hitler is morally ok, but aborting Fetus Hitler is Right Out.
Brachiator
I was reading this morning that Jeb’s people were going to come out swinging hard against Rubio, thinking him their most dangerous opponent. Oddly enough, they seem to be absolutely afraid of Trump, and either fear or simply dismiss Carson. No matter.
Jeb’s done.
Surreal American
@Germy Shoemangler:
Sincerely speaking, that is high praise. Thank you!
geg6
@Germy Shoemangler:
That wins the internet today.
Paul in KY
@Germy Shoemangler: Now that’s a great twitter line!
Roger Moore
@Amir Khalid:
A quick search suggests that “stick a fork in it” comes from sticking a fork in mean to test if it’s cooked, where the resistance to the fork going in tells you if it’s cooked, rather than the test for cakes. I was always taught to use something like a toothpick to test a cake for doneness anyway.
Paul in KY
@Surreal American: Another great quip!
Jeffro
@mai naem mobile:
Don’t go a-soilin’ just yet. That Cruz-ian face, that unbelievably irritating voice, the Nixonian playbook…it’s enough to make the last 3 swing voters in America vote our way.
JPL
@mai naem mobile: Cruz could win the 155 delegates from Texas during the primary. That’s quite a few delegates
Think about that one.
Amir Khalid
@Roger Moore:
Either way, it’s a test for doneness. It doesn’t actually do anything to the meat/cake.
JPL
We have a situation where Trump might be the sane one. ugh
Amir Khalid
@Roger Moore:
But would the Republican establishment be interested at that point in backing Jeb, however solid his establishment credenza? I for one would find his incompetence disqualifyng.
pamelabrown53
@Amir Khalid:
I’m more for beating on Rubio than a dead horse.Hopefully, Jeb!’s death spiral will provide enough dirt against Rubio to take him with Jeb. Because Rubio’s shallowness and vacuity might not be enough.
Calouste
@dmsilev: Trump’s business, the Trump Organization, has 22,450 employees according to Wikipedia, and Trump has been running it since 1971. That he knows how to organize stuff should come as no surprise, he’s no Carson. That Bush is worse than Trump in the specific field of political organizing is unexpected, although the Bushes hasn’t really been running a major campaign since 2004, so a lot of their team has moved somewhere else, compared to the Bush1-Bush2 period where the gap between the 1992 and 2000 Presidential elections was filled with the 1994 and 1998 Texas and Florida gubernatorial campaigns.
Germy Shoemangler
Listening to old Cliff Edwards tunes on youtube right now. Lovely songs and lyrics:
I could show the world how to smile
I could be glad all of the while
I could change the gray skies to blue
If I had you
I could leave the old days behind
Leave all my pals, I’d never mind
I could start my life anew
If I had you
I could climb a snow-capped mountain
Sail the mighty ocean wide
I could cross the burning desert
If I had you by my side
I could be a king, dear, uncrowned
Humble or poor, rich or renowned
There is nothin’ I couldn’t do
If I had you
Mike J
@Roger Moore: Can”t we all agree we’d like to stick a fork in Jeb!, and we’re not really that concerned about the culinary justification for it?
kc
OT, sorry: Is the site rebuild finished? I hope not. If not, would it be too much to ask for a pinned front page post about issues with the site?
Amir Khalid
@Mike J:
What’s always bothered me abut this phrase is, if you already know he’s done, you don’t need to stick a fork in him. Unless it has sharp prongs.
Gin & Tonic
@Amir Khalid: If you are attending, say, a pig roast, when it’s done you can stick a fork in it to pull off some meat to eat. Generic “you”, of course, unless it’s a halal pig roast.
Litlebritdifrnt
@dmsilev: Well said. Funny how these pro life types are isn’t it.
Amir Khalid
@kc:
If The Gods haven’t granted us such a post by now, it’s unlikely they ever will.
Amir Khalid
@Gin & Tonic:
That sounds unhygienic. Shouldn’t you get your host to carve you a piece?
Peale
@Amir Khalid: Oddly, even though I know about testing cakes and meats with forks, I always thought this particular metaphor referred to a way to make certain something was actually dead. I suppose holding a mirror under a nose or checking for a pulse would be more gentle and accurate. But inserting a fork is probably more fun.
tybee
@Amir Khalid:
you haven’t been to many pig roasts, have you?
Frankensteinbeck
Having a mediocre but basically competent campaign organization was what let Romney outlast the clowns. If Jeb:( doesn’t… this primary gets weirder by the minute.
@Amir Khalid:
The idea is that you are predicting X is done, and urging someone to test it to prove your point.
Peale
To be a delegate nominee, does one need to pay one’s own way to the convention if the candidate wins? If the lack of a delegates a signal of the fact that not enough people want to be publicly known as “bush supporters” or not enough want to shell out their own money to go to a convention for him.
Roger Moore
@Amir Khalid:
I think the idea is that you’re proclaiming that something is done and it’s now time for the formal test.
Roger Moore
@Mike J:
I would definitely like to stick a fork in all of the Republican candidates– one of AsianGrlMN’s very rusty pitchforks.
Amir Khalid
@tybee:
(Looks at tybee suspiciously.) How did you know that?
srv
I think these posts are tantamount to bullying.
We can all see that Jeb is trapped by family and events and has no way out. There needs to be a safe place for Jeb. So please consider focusing on the legitimate candidates and leave this poor guy alone.
Geoduck
I still wouldn’t be at all surprised if Bush manages to get the nomination in the end.
trollhattan
@pamelabrown53:
You may be right and in any case, this line is a thing of beauty:
I can’t envision Cruz emerging because he’s so profoundly repellent and also, too, because good old dad will get Carson-level scrutiny, at which point we’ll get to know someone even more of a barking lunatic than hundred-dollar Ben.
Another Holocene Human
@Germy Shoemangler: 42 cats, monumental (19th cen) style: shoulda gone for 1.5mill!!
Germy Shoemangler
@Another Holocene Human: the painting and its title are awe-inspiring.
trollhattan
@srv:
Still waiting to find one. Probably hidden alongside those WMDs.
Luthe
Now that I think about it, it occurs to me the Bush family are kind of like political cockroaches. I wouldn’t count Jeb! out unless I personally drove the stake in myself.
Another Holocene Human
@Amir Khalid: As someone who spent a childhood of sticking knives, forks, and bamboo skewers into nasty breads and muffins that most assuredly were not done, I beg to differ with this etymology.
At best, if you follow this notion, it’s a confident prognostication. Go ahead. Stick that fork in it. See if I’m right.
Another Holocene Human
Also, some recipes do not compliantly come clean on cue. Too long ago for me to remember which ones, although I’d bet those sticky puddings and volcano cakes are prime examples.
kc
@Amir Khalid:
Maybe if I ask Cole on Twitter …
Amir Khalid
@kc:
Do so at your own peril, for John Cole is a wrathful god.
Josie
@kc: Evidently they are working on a complete new comment system which will be rolled out sometime in the future. They have indicated that a lot of problems will be fixed when that happens. They haven’t said specifically when that will be.
Gin & Tonic
@Amir Khalid: Sometimes you’re just hungry.
Brachiator
@srv:
Doesn’t “Kennebunkport” mean “safe place?”
* Actually, “Kennebunk” most likely means “long cut bank,” for the pedants. And yeah, Jeb was born in Midland, Texas, but the crime family goes to the mattresses at the family stronghold in Kennebunkport.
jurassicpork
Virtual Book Sale– Great deals for great books. Please pass along. We desperately need the money.
lethargytartare
@Amir Khalid:
I assume it’s the contracted form of:
“Stick a fork in (cake/sausage) [you’ll see] it’s done.”
kc
@Amir Khalid:
Maybe we should nominate a representative to email him. I nominate Amir Khalid.
He’d yell at me, but not you, surely. Plus he loves emails … :D
trollhattan
@kc:
Must compose in ALL CAPS.
Ajabu
@Germy Shoemangler:
You’re right. It’s a beautiful lyric. Hardly anybody writes like that anymore.
However (he says humbly) I do:
Here’s the lyric for a song I wrote for my wife – that’s on my “Chocolate Fox” CD.
You Are My Star
You light my way to heaven
Everywhere you are
Shadows dissipate and sun shines through ’cause
You LIght My World
There’s nothing till you smile and
It amazes me, when you hold me I’m set free
Birds will sing, And it’s Spring
Even through the longest nights of winter
I smell scent of Bougainvillea
Paradise is mine on earth now
You Truly Are
The star that lights my way and
All my pain is past
‘Cause we share our lives at last
I wrote that for our wedding and remain proud of it 2 & a half decades later. (And the melody is pretty, too.) Plus, who else ever used Bougainvillea in a song lyric?
Amir Khalid
@kc:
And why would John Cole refrain from yelling at me? I nominate kc.
rikyrah
Blindspot Renewed for Season 2 at NBC
By Michael Ausiello / November 9 2015, 11:04 AM PST
Blindspot has a freshly-inked renewal deal to show off.
A mere two months into its launch, NBC has already picked up the rookie hit for a second season.
Blindspot thus far is averaging 8.7 million weekly viewers and a 2.4 rating — sometimes equaling the combined demo delivery for time slot rivals Castle and NCIS: LA. Those numbers grow to 12.7 mil and a 3.7 with best available DVR playback data.
“We are over the moon with the success of Blindspot, and want to thank our producers and amazing cast for creating one of the most riveting shows on television,” said Jennifer Salke, President of NBC Entertainment. “We literally can’t wait to see what the second season will bring.”
Blindspot is the first new fall series of the 2015-16 season to snag a Season 2 renewal.
http://tvline.com/2015/11/09/blindspot-renewed-season-2-at-nbc/
Nate Dawg
If you all don’t think Jeb can pick up the pieces when the clown car crashes (a la Romney 2012), then you’re seriously mistaken. Rubio is a complete rube and is seriously lacking in the gravitas department. The media is priming everyone for a “comeback kid” routine with ole Jeb. Just you wait.
Mike in NC
@Calouste:
Would that be some sort of an homage to the Organization Todt, which employed prison laborers and was run by Albert Speer during WWII?
Applejinx
Stick a fork in him. He’s cake.
The thing about these guys is, they’re that committed to not governing, and it’s affecting their work of running for office.
Think about it. Trump’s used to doing things, even if they’re dumb things. Of course he has an organization. As for Carson, that’s more of a demented populist groundswell and God knows where it’s coming from but he’s not likely to know much about how to do this stuff.
It’s flat out weird that Bush doesn’t know this stuff, though. But then, they’re princelings who never had to do a lick of work, him and his cheerfully dumb brother. He is just going through the motions, as Mom and Poppy look on in despair and some form of satisfaction that THEY knew this stuff better. Poppy’s like, I dun fucked up. Kids can’t even get elected.
piratedan7
these guys just want to win, doesn’t mean that they actually want to DO…. witness the evidence of W’s reign of error…..
Yutsano
@mai naem mobile:
Not me. If you think that anyone in the Republican establishment is going to let someone like Rafael near the Presidency I got bridges to sell you. He does have eligibility issues that no one is bothering to resolve since he is getting pretty much nowhere right now. If he starts gaining traction you bet your bippie that’s gonna become an issue.
max
@Nate Dawg: Rubio is a complete rube and is seriously lacking in the gravitas department. The media is priming everyone for a “comeback kid” routine with ole Jeb. Just you wait.
They’ll try. They like Jeb. They like Rubio. They don’t like Trump. Which is going to be fucked up if Trump manages to bag it.
max
[‘Oh, the shit storms they’ll have.’]
PurpleGirl
@Germy Shoemangler: One of my kitten cam sites mentioned it the other day. Isn’t it a great painting.
WaterGirl
Tom, my books – well, actually your books – arrived and are now in the hands of my friends. One early birthday gift and one late birthday gift.
My best friend (physicist) was excited about the book once he read the back cover. The second book is for a friend who is not a scientist but is intrigued by science-y stuff, and his wife just texted me to say that he LOVES the book. Just one day after getting the book, he is more than halfway through.
Success!
Amir Khalid
@Applejinx:
This is the sixth Bush presidential campaign, of which three have either put the candidate in the White House or kept him there. You’d expect some process knowledge/competence at the candidate’s level to be retained in the family.
Luthe
@Yutsano: If Cruz even gets near the nom, I want a very loud chorus of Dems asking if he counts as a “natural-born citizen” since he wasn’t even born in a US territory (like McCain), let alone a state. I want every single attack they pulled in the “Obama’s really a-Kenyan!” smear biting them in ass.
Luthe
@Amir Khalid: That’s what they have little people for. To remember things for them.
catclub
@Nate Dawg:
But Romney also had more delegates than any one else in 2012 – probably the whole time. Much easier to pick up the pieces in that situation.
Frankly, I think Romney’s chances are improving for the nom in 2016.
trollhattan
@Amir Khalid:
“It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets Bar’s ruler again.”
pamelabrown53
@trollhattan:
As a liberal democrat I find my self in a blackout when it comes to divining the republican primary electorate. It’s more factionalized than the dems, so it’s difficult to see how coalitions will form. Whenever I proffer an analysis, I have to ask myself: is this wishful thinking?
Belafon
@Amir Khalid: And you can “have your cake and eat it, too”, while you can’t “eat your cake and have it, too.” Some of our idioms have been distorted from their original intent.
p.a.
Jeb? isn’t out of it. Incorrect Assumption 1) is that the Republican party wants or has engineered an open democratic process to determine its nominee.
Now it comes down to who controls the Republican party. We don’t know, but given Incorrect Assumption 1) we can make a good guess. Hence, Jeb¿ isn’t done.
WaterGirl
@Yutsano: How does it feel to be you again? :-)
Tom Levenson
@WaterGirl: Awesome! My thanks and thanks again!
Matt McIrvin
@Ajabu:
I’m pretty sure Paul Simon did at some point. One of the songs on Rhythm of the Saints, maybe?
Cervantes
@lethargytartare:
Exactly right.
Yutsano
@WaterGirl: I HAZ MY NYM BACK!!! Better still, it’s not causing the issues the old FYWP system was causing. YAY!!!
@Tom Levenson: I meant to tell you: last night at dinner my father mentioned reading your book that I gave him for Christmas last year. He not only found it entertaining but educational. Is Vulcan going to have a Kindle release? He’s been reading a lot on that lately.
Peale
@Luthe: Won’t help. They’ll just accuse of of being hypocritical because they know that Obama isn’t eligible and we’re just covering for him. In fact, they’ll probably vote for him all the more if we claim to be upset. What we should do is say how proud we’ll be to vote for the first actual undocumented non-birthright citizen president and how if he’s elected we’ll love our country for the first time. I think liberals may need to enthusiastically embrace Ted Cruz in order to destroy him.
p.a.
@pamelabrown53: You’re overthinking. Cleek’s Law. After that it’s TV $ and ground game $, i.e. the most efficient of the BigMoneyBoyz boy.
Tim C.
I too will join the ranks of people who can no longer understand the internal dynamics of the GOP race. I do think it roughly comes down to the candidates who occupy the “Not-completely-totally-insane-but-sadistic-aristocrats” and the “completely-totally-utterly-believing-in-things-that-are-demonstrably-false” niches. The problem is I’m not even sure who is in each category anymore. Trump for example. Is he scamming and saying the crap he knows the worst part of the base want’s to hear? Cruz is similar, he’s a complete sociopath, but is he sincere? Does it matter? Finally, I agree with Josh Marshall that Carson is a candidate the way “Springtime For Hitler” was a play. Someone who is really there to run a mail-order scam, but is now getting way more attention and success he was supposed to and is paying the price.
Tom Levenson
@Yutsano: It’s already out on Kindle. Audible too, in case anyone rolls that way.
Not that I’m into self promotion in any way. Not me.
(Thanks so much for the support. And thank your dad too.)
NotMax
112 dimensional chess.WaterGirl
@Tom Levenson: Thanks for making me look good to my friends! :-)
Matt McIrvin
@Luthe: The thing is, under a reasonable parsing of the law, Cruz is pretty clearly a natural-born citizen. His mother was a US citizen, and satisfied the residency requirements for her child to inherit her citizenship, regardless of his birthplace. And US law doesn’t have any definition of “natural-born citizen” other than “citizen by reason of birth”.
(Barack Obama’s mother was also a US citizen, but there’s at least a plausible interpretation of the law in effect at the time that says she didn’t satisfy the residency requirements. However, Obama was born in the United States, so it doesn’t matter; he was born a citizen anyway. But that’s why the argument for his citizenship rests on his location of birth.)
You can throw the same crap at Cruz that the Republicans threw at Obama, but only by being equally dishonest, which I don’t think we want to do.
WaterGirl
@Tom Levenson: iBooks?
WaterGirl
@Yutsano: Yay is right!!
Cervantes
@Luthe:
No. Just no.
Danack
Whoever gets the nomination is going to have an incredibly tough time actually running a campaign as it seems one of these scenarios has to take place:
* One of the trailing no-hopers gets lucky and surges in March/April to become the nominee. This leaves them as the nominee but with no real national organisation behind them, and only a few months to sort one out.
* There is no nominee before the convention in July and there is a shit-show getting to a nominee.
* Trump or Carson solidify their lead, and the nomination goes to one of them. People who aren’t GOP activists get tired of their schtick almost immediately, and then have to endure another 9 months of them.
Obviously predicting the future is a mugs game – but one of these scenarios has to take place right?
Roger Moore
@Amir Khalid:
Two points:
1) It’s now be more than 10 years since the last Bush campaign, and 15 years since a Bush last faced a contested primary. That has been a very busy time for the development of campaigns what with Citizens United and all, and the Bush family retainers haven’t necessarily kept up.
2) The family isn’t the candidate; ¿Jeb? is. He has to be in at least nominal control of the campaign, and he certainly has to be the guy who goes out there and plays the part of the candidate. If he sucks or doesn’t want to play, the campaign has a problem that all of the family experience can’t necessarily fix.
Tom Levenson
@WaterGirl: Yup. It’s there. Can’t figure out how to link to an iTunes page, but it’s there.
Roger Moore
@Belafon:
The one about bad apples has been completely twisted in its meaning, for example.
Ajabu
@Matt McIrvin:
Have to check that out. But, was he looking at Bougainvillea when he wrote it? Huh? That’s some Caribbean stuff…
Cervantes
@Tom Levenson:
Kenneth Fair
@Matt McIrvin: Good catch regarding Paul Simon. “Bougainvillea” is in The Coast, on Rhythm of the Saints:
grumpy realist
@jurassicpork: Ordered Tatterdemalion. Looks very interesting!
WaterGirl
@Tom Levenson: Yay! That’s how I will read my copy. :-)
Satby
@Ajabu: aww, that’s sweet! And glad you popped in, Baud was asking if anyone had heard from you!
Roger Moore
@Tim C.:
I don’t think that anyone genuinely understands it, or if they do, they’re either not sharing or lost in the noise of all the people who only think they understand it pontificating.
NotMax
@grumpy realist
Porker has been regularly begging for cash online for nigh unto a decade.
Roger Moore
@Matt McIrvin:
There’s a whole bunch of factors with Obama’s citizenship. For example, there’s a legitimate question of whether his father had properly divorced his first wife before marrying Ann Dunham, which would make their marriage invalid, and that might change Barack’s citizenship status in some cases.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Ajabu:
“Rhythm of the Saints” is Simon’s album with Latin American and Carribbean musicians, so it makes sense.
Cervantes
@Roger Moore:
Let’s say both his parents were bigamists; he was still born in these United States.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Roger Moore:
But not if was born on US soil. I don’t think there’s ever been any kind of court decision saying that illegitimate children aren’t citizens. Could potentially make a difference if born overseas, yes, but not if his mother was the US citizen.
IIRC, for a long time you could only claim US citizenship when born overseas through your mother, not your father, so a lot of Vietnamese war children were not allowed to immigrate even when their fathers wanted to bring them here. I think that’s been changed, though.
In the case of Obama, the validity of his parents’ marriage would only matter if he was claiming US citizenship through his father.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Matt McIrvin: I would like to do it. Very much. For several years. They fucking well deserve it.
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Hawai’i became a state in 1949. Obama’s citizenship should have never been a question, which is why they tried to prove so hard that he was born somewhere else. Of course how two separate Hawai’ian newspapers had the birth announcement has never been properly explained. Except by magic Negro powers.
And having also been born in Hawai’i, this irritates me to no end.
NotMax
@Yutsano
Typo.
1959.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Yutsano:
Let’s face it, they were thrashing around to find anything they could, and the birther thing sounded superficially “smart” until you actually looked into it.
Especially the stuff about how Obama’s mother was too young for him to be born a citizen even if he was born in the US. I never heard of a rash of kids born to mothers under the age of 25 inside the US being declared non-citizens, did you? But suddenly his mother’s age was so frickin’ vitally important.
SFAW
@Ajabu:
I think The Sylvers did.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Yutsano:
Shorter me: Birtherism was invented so stupid people could feel smart.
SFAW
@Yutsano:
Not magic, just a time machine.
Which he would no doubt use to prevent Jeb-Jeb Brinks from Killing Baby Hilter. Thanks, Obama!
Roger Moore
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
I think that applied only in the case of children whose parents weren’t married, where the paternity was at least theoretically questionable. Genetic testing obviously makes it easier to prove paternity, so it’s more practical to allow illegitimate children to inherit from their fathers now. AFAIK, when the rule was that only one parent had to be a citizen, either parent would do as long as the parents were married.
SFAW
@Roger Moore:
Hmm, I wonder where that puts me.
My parents were married. Just not to each other.
GregB
Jebs! new motto is: “I will make America so…ehhh.”
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Roger Moore:
Yes, the fact that we were still talking about illegitimate children (children whose parents were not married) should be implied throughout my comment.
You know who else’s parents weren’t married?
;-)
Roger Moore
@Cervantes:
Sure, but if he had been born in Kenya, as the birthers claim, then the legal status of his parents’ marriage becomes important. If his parents weren’t legally married, then he would be a citizen provided that his mother was a citizen, which everyone agrees she was, and had lived in the US or one of its territories for at least one year, which she had (8 USC 1409).
It notably doesn’t require his mother to have lived in the US for at least one year after a certain age. That’s significant because it’s a more lenient requirement than if his parents had been legally married, which required her to have been a resident of the US for at least 5 years after the age of 14, which she didn’t meet because she wasn’t quite 19 yet when Barack was born. So if you accept the counterfactual that he was born in Kenya, then the legal status of his parents’ marriage becomes important, and he actually benefits from his parents’ marriage being invalid. Of course then you get into the question of whether American or Kenyan law covers the legality of the marriage given that Barack Sr. was still married to his first wife when he married Ann Dunham, etc.
Roger Moore
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Jesus.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Ha! But this is the secret sauce of all nutcase conspiracy theories, the kind you hear on late night radio. No matter how “rationally” the theory is presented, it soon becomes clear that a) the theory is nutty, and b) the purveyor of the theory is proud that he or she is possessed of some deep secret that, if known and understood, would change the world and elevate the conspiracy nut to the height of fame. Because only he or she has the deep knowledge that is not understood or denied by experts and official wise persons.
PurpleGirl
@Roger Moore: If IIRC, that residency for 5 years after the age of 14 really referred to children who were born in the US but then were taken back by their parents to the country of their parents’ birth, i.e. a girl child born in the US and taken to Sicily by her parents who then on her own moves back to the US. I don’t know if that would have kept my mother from conferring citizenship on her first child, born just before her 18th birthday. And my mother was born in the US just days after her mother arrived here from Sicily. (My mother never went to Sicily, and her first husband was from Ecuador.)
ETA: I think the whole birtherism was grasping at straws to deligitimatize President Obama anyway they could.
Phil C
@srv: lol
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
Where’ stat R2R jackass when you need her?
Cervantes
@Roger Moore:
Yes, I hadn’t (but should have) realized you were playing with “the counterfactual that he was born in Kenya”!
Roger Moore
@PurpleGirl:
That might have been the intent, but it wasn’t the letter of the law. The letter of the law was that if the child was born outside the US to one citizen and one alien parent, they were only a citizen if the citizen parent had lived in the US for at least 10 years, at least 5 of which must have been after the age of 14. The most obvious reading of the law would deny citizenship to the child of an 18 year old citizen mother married to an alien father who gives birth outside the US and its territories. So in the counterfactual that Obama was born in Kenya, the legal status of his parents’ marriage would be critical to his citizenship.
Roger Moore
@Cervantes:
Sometimes it helps to spell things like that out explicitly. I honestly think some of the counterfactuals around Obama’s citizenship make fun legal conundrums because you have to worry about the legality of is parents’ marriage, which marriage law would have effect if they were “married” in Hawaii but were living in Kenya at the time of Obama’s birth, etc. It seems like the kind of thing that would make a good case for moot court.