Marin Coogan, at NYMag:
… Almost from the moment Boehner became speaker in early 2011 there were signs that he would be the victim of his own success. The tea party, in full revolt over the congressional stimulus and health-care packages, sent him a 63-seat majority. These new members, many of them first-time lawmakers, came to Washington certain that they had a mandate to stop at all costs the reckless spending they felt was happening in Washington.
At the time I was a beat reporter at Politico assigned to cover the freshman class. Because those freshmen had given Boehner the majority, and because they seemed — to the Republicans, anyway — to represent the best American democracy had to offer, a real, responsive movement to the politics that were unfolding in the Obama era, Boehner and his allies originally rolled out the red carpet for the new members. He gave freshman-class liaisons to leadership positions and made it clear that their voices would be valued in the party. (The members were also subject to way more media attention than the average rank-and-file member, which may have contributed to their outsize sense of self-importance.)
It soon became clear to me, in daily conversations with those members, that they viewed fighting against the leadership of their own party to be just as important as fighting Obama and the Democrats. Boehner suffered greatly for it. Being speaker was a career-long dream of his; he wanted to empower his conference to, as he so often put it, “work its will” on behalf of the people who elected them. But this turned out to be one of his most sentimental and naïve ideas…
You could consider his exit from Congress just desserts. This is, after all, the guy who was knocked from his leadership role early in his career for taking part in a failed coup attempt against Newt Gingrich. This is the man who was in charge of the House GOP when it chose to shut down the government, and when it threatened to so many times before and after. He’s the man who had lawyers go to court for the Defense of Marriage Act when the administration was no longer willing to defend it, and who presided over so much craziness in the House. Certainly, the tea party is happy to see him go. At a Marco Rubio speech delivered at the Values Voters Summit Friday morning, the audience broke into cheers and applause when Boehner’s retirement was announced…
Her colleague, Jon Chait, says that “Conservatives Hated Boehner Because He Couldn’t Get Rid of Obama”:
… To understand the pressures that brought about Boehner’s demise as an ideological split badly misconstrues the situation. The small band of right-wing noisemakers in the House who made Boehner’s existence a living hell could not identify any important substantive disagreements with the object of their wrath… The source of the disagreement was tactical, not philosophical. Boehner’s tormentors refused to accept the limits of his political power…
Boehner has never supported any important aspect of the Obama agenda. Even at the outset of the Obama administration, with the president soaring in the polls and the economy plunging into the abyss, he rallied his entire party to withhold support from the stimulus and never seriously considered negotiating. He not only voted against Obamacare, but he repeatedly punctuated his speech denouncing it with shouts of “hell no!” The positive “accomplishments” of the Boehner Era were limited to avoiding a series of brinksmanship-induced catastrophes. The limits of conservative power extended to the ability to block all legislative progress or compromise. Boehner successfully delivered that. He even joined in several creative efforts to expand his institution’s power by using threats of shutdowns or debt-ceiling crises to coerce Obama into enacting portions of the Republican agenda, giving up only when Obama had beaten him back repeatedly.
It was not enough. Three quarters of Republicans believe, incredibly, that their party leadership has not done enough to oppose Obama. Three fifths feel “betrayed” by their party…
Morzer
To general amazement:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/kim-davis-becoming-republican
Baud
I hope Boehner drunk-sings Take This Job and Shove It on the House floor on his last day.
beltane
@Morzer: She is right. The Democratic party did leave her kind a long time ago. Thank you FSM.
Baud
@Morzer:
Yes, we did leave you. Goodbye.
BGinCHI
@Morzer: She was hoping the Calhoun Democrats would rise again.
redshirt
Has anyone asked Mrs. Davis where in the Bible God states His position on gay marriage? Because she seems very sure of this “fact”.
Punchy
Boehner was simply not a hard-core advocate of Cleek’s Law. Full stop. That’s unacceptable to the knuckledraggers and mouthbreathers. I suspect Iowa’s King or some chucklehead from Texas will be getting the nod.
beltane
@redshirt: Just as conservatives create their own reality, they also create their own Bible.
Baud
@BGinCHI:
But Webb has been mired at the bottom of the polls.
goblue72
Those who bought and own the 2010-2015 Tea Party Congress got exactly what they paid for – a Congress blocking any and all legislative attempts to regulate corporations, increase taxes on the upper class (whether by increasing capital gains, cutting the carried interest exemption or just plain raising the income tax rates), or enact meaningful programs to shift even a smidgen of their vast oceans of wealth from the oligarchs to the 99%.
When you own everything and refuse to share any of it, the best Congress money can buy is a Congress that does nothing. And if it can be encouraged to go to war periodically so you sell more guns, bullets, bombs, tanks, missiles, etc. to the government, so much the better.
The hard right will never be satisfied because they are paid to never be satisfied.
Baud
Cuz they know Obama is gonna ride off into the sunset like Sheriff Bart in Blazing Saddles.
redshirt
@beltane:
It’s just so insane. I read a recap of her interview on Fox and it was basically “God said this” and “God wants that” and I kept thinking “really? You know what God wants? Personally?”
Insanity.
Gimlet
Hear uplifting, prog rock-inspired track, “Wake Up! Go! Go! Forward!” — As Pope Francis embarks on his historic visit to the United States, His Holiness will spread his message of hope, faith and unity in the form of a prog-rock-infused album titled Wake Up! this November.
srv
Fair America for Americans:
maya
@Morzer:
Nancy Reagan should see a lawyer about collecting royalties on that statement.
MattF
Boehner is the guy who scheduled more than 50 votes to repeal Obamacare, every single one of which failed. Boehner is the guy who invited Netanyahu to address the Congress without mentioning the invitation to the President. Boehner is the guy who simply refused to negotiate with Obama about anything.
And he did all this but didn’t manage to soothe the fevered brows of the radicals in his party. A failure. Period.
Brachiator
Very nice reminder of the current GOP fixation with supposedly pure anti-establishment types with no past political record.
As another poster noted in another thread, the Koch brothers and others behind the Tea Party created a monster, and now it has turned on them.
Earlier, I didn’t think anything could be sweeter than watching the Donald trump all over Fox News, that defective oracle of wingnuttery. But now you got Boehner starring in “Orange is the new gone.” Just delicious.
The only downside to this is that the GOP will almost certainly pick a new leader who will be even more obstructionist than Boehner.
Morzer
@MattF:
Well, if Boehner had really wanted it, we could have had single-pay… oh, sorry, wrong conspiracy theory.
scav
@redshirt: There is no God (or Freedom) but Her God (and Freedom) and Kim Davis is his Prophet (with exclusive Judgment and Smiting rights). Every word that drops from her redeemed lips are printed in red type.
BGinCHI
@Baud: Rising and being loved are apparently two different things.
redshirt
@Gimlet:
Probably going to be better than Daft Punk.
Morzer
We really should have a special thread for possible epitaphs for Boehner.
My contribution is this:
“Sometimes you eat the pander, and sometimes the pander eats you.”
Cervantes
@MattF:
That last bit is an over-statement.
BGinCHI
@srv: Amazing news: capitalists who have no fucking idea how capitalism works.
Pro tip: tariffs are a two way street. You could look it up.
Baud
@srv:
I think Trump just got Kay’s vote.
BGinCHI
@scav: Best part is that in general terms, the NT rewrites the OT (covenant-wise and so on). The evangelicals can only exist based on this. But when it suits them they are unreconstructed OT Jewish tribalists.
It makes no fucking sense.
Mandalay
@MattF:
I don’t think that is true at all. If it was he wouldn’t be stepping down.
Corner Stone
@srv:
Trump just got my vote. Take that, HRC!
MattF
@Cervantes: Actual negotiation in good faith doesn’t involve moving the goalposts. Ex-Republican Saletan explains.
Corner Stone
@Baud:
Ha!
beltane
@BGinCHI: The evangelicals are like wannabe Haredi Jews who are just too lazy and undisciplined to obey any of God’s very lengthy and detailed list of commandments. It is bastardized form of Christianity suited to the needs of nasty, hate filled people who live in squalor yet like to think they are God’s special emissaries on earth.
Brachiator
@Cervantes: RE: Boehner is the guy who simply refused to negotiate with Obama about anything.
Not by much. Over the years Boehner would continually lecture Obama in demeaning and condescending terms, sternly talking about how “this president doesn’t listen” or “the president doesn’t understand.”
Even recently with ISIS:
Always this implication that the president needed to listen to his “betters.”
Meanwhile, taking a page from John McCain, the president tries to make nice.
Maybe Obama should ask to check Boehner’s birth certificate on the Orange One’s way out the door.
Another Holocene Human
@beltane: Actually, sounds a lot like what is said about haredi, without the chumrot fever. Kinder commenters call them less lazy and more exploited, but as for the living in squalor, well, so many kids, so little income, you do the math.
beltane
The conservative base doesn’t just want to get rid of Obama, they want to get rid of the people who elected Obama.
Another Holocene Human
And who could forget the black hatted young men in New York walking signs or driving sign-covered cars screaming about abortion and gays. In English, the language they’re too frum to speak.
Fred
So now they can install one of the many available flaming morons as Speaker and get on with their dream of Impeaching that black man in their White House.
What could the charge be? He’s a well known Socialist/ Muslin/ Fascist/ illegal alien and he’s been lookin’ at white wimin with lust in his heart. That should be enough, dammit!
But seriously, I bet they are going to try it. Hey, they don’t have any more pressing business.
If they shut down the government can they still run Impeachment proceedings? Maybe they can hire Bonner back as a consultant to explain how it all works in case they decide to follow the rules.
eric
Obama should thank the soon to be former speaker for all of his cooperation as well as the help provided by the majority leader and whip.
Another Holocene Human
@beltane: They’re perfectly okay with the people who elected Obama as long as they know their place. Since they refuse to know their place, they have to be restrained from voting and otherwise treated like unruly children until they learn better.
Another Holocene Human
@eric: the @whitehouse account praised Boehner and I think Obama PR’d a longer statement
nothing about the whip, though
Peale
Looking at what Mexico has done with its auto industry. It’s a little bit of a mix on the nafta part. It looks more like, if you don’t have to waste your political capital with your allies I military matters, the free trade deal works for them. but it has as much to do with their free trade deals with everyone, not just the U.S.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2014/08/20/americas-car-capital-will-soon-be-mexico/
eric
@Another Holocene Human: the dems want the craziest mother fucker the GOP has for the upcoming election season.
MattF
@Fred: Impeachment proceedings would be a dream come true for the Dems. I don’t see it happening, but you never know.
ETA: I’m out of here, gotta go. ‘Night all.
redshirt
@Fred:
I hope so. At this point, let them go as crazy as they want – all the more to show America who to vote for in 11/2016.
beltane
@Another Holocene Human: The evangelicals have no religious discipline at all. They eat whatever and whenever they choose. They marry multiple times and have children out of wedlock. They submit to no authority but their own egos, which is what they refer to by the term ‘God”. Being “saved” means having the right to throw stones from your glass house with no consequence.
lamh36
So in 2008 and 2012…Boehner, Cantor and the like were all intent on “outlasting that one” Barack H. Obama. And time and time again, who’s come out on top…hmm…welp I guess Boehner lasted longer than most thought…
Chris
If your ideology is based in complete fantasy (be it “the Earth is 6,000 years old, nothing evolved and global warming is a hoax” or “you totally CAN impeach or otherwise remove a sitting president simply for the crime of not being the one I voted for!”), it’s no surprise that you won’t be able to achieve what you set out to do.
Nor, unfortunately, that your inevitable failure will be taken not as a flaw in your ideology, but as a sign that 1) you didn’t try hard enough and 2) foul backstabbing traitors screwed up your perfect plan.
Elizabelle
Aha. ABC World News Tonight just paired Jeb!’s comments about “free stuff” with a John Legend tweet.
The John Legend tweet:
Well done, ABC.
theronware
What would one expect from such cultists?
beltane
@redshirt: Maybe the Republicans will put on a good show, writhing around on the House floor speaking in tongues, etc. I would totally want to watch that.
Chris
@Morzer:
This is kind of funny when you think of it this way:
As Republicans are ever so fond of pointing out to us, the Ku Klux Klan was founded by Democrats. The segregationist Southern bloc that was most hardcore against racial progress were all Democrats. In fact, Democrats have always been The Real Racists.
So… when Kimmy’s saying that the Democratic Party left her, thus implying that the Democrats were at one point more like her, is she implying that she liked them better back in these old days, which she is old enough to remember, when Democrats were overt white supremacists?
(I know: on Balloon Juice, anywhere people have a shred of knowledge, the answer to this is “well duh.” But I just keep wishing that someday someone, maybe even a reporter, will pick up on that cute little “I didn’t leave the Democratic Party, it left me!” line and ask them exactly what they mean by it, and how it overlaps with their other mantra, “the segregationists were all Democrats!”)
beltane
@Chris: The Democratic party left her tribe back in 1964. No one knows why.
Another Holocene Human
@eric: Agreed. Trey Gowdy would be a pretty sweet pick.
I also like the racist dude, Scalise. What a prick.
eric
@Another Holocene Human: Kim Davis, as a reward for switching parties.
scav
I’m rather enjoying the muddled messaging of the Prophetess’s public flouncing out of the Democratic Party, as so many were getting milage out of her being a (Both Sides!) Democrat. Another tiny little media ready arrow tee-shirt (“I’m with the religious intolerant!”) pointing at Tent R.
jl
@Peale: Thanks. Interesting story on Mexico’s success at building car industry around its free trade agreements. But at least some of the contrast with the US in the story is BS.
US progress in getting more trade deals done is ‘pathetically slow’ because the US has been using the ‘free trade’ negotiations to try to force the rest of the world to adopt IP, patent and dispute resolution procedures that are favorable to giant US and multinational corporations. Doesn’t have much to do with free trade issues at all, and much more to do with US style crony capitalism, and restraint of trade through overly restrictive IP and patent systems, and what amounts to using trade negotiations to give giant corporations with extremely generous corporate investment and profit insurance policies.
Mandalay
@beltane:
Evangelicals have the highest rate of divorce of any religious group. Randall Balmer has a simple and persuasive explanation for why Evangelicals decided to make a big U-turn on divorce, and grow to accept it. The tldr version is “Ronald Reagan”, and he makes a powerful case:
Corner Stone
@Elizabelle: John Legend’s had a few good ones recently.
Another Holocene Human
The wrong Daniel Webster is running for Speaker. Food fight!
Corner Stone
@scav:
Agreed. Praise FSM, I am so happy she finally said it out loud.
Corner Stone
Can someone tell me why I am supposed to pay $15 to watch the movie John Wick? When the hell did this pricing model come to be?
redshirt
@Corner Stone: You tell me.
John Wick is an interesting action movie though and definitely worth checking out.
Peale
@Corner Stone: who is charging that? Your cable company? Redbox?
Another Holocene Human
@Mandalay: Sounds like authoritarians who do whatever their leaders tell them to do. No wonder they have no principles.
Divorce has probably also escalated as a result of the increasing poverty of this demographic, who were dependent on factory and agricultural work and are now, increasingly, screwed. Social science research shows that couples’ marriage decisions are driven by economics, not culture.
Elizabelle
@Corner Stone: I think a beagle gets it. You sure you want to pay $15 to see that? It stopped me in my tracks.
#save the beagles.
beltane
@Mandalay: Thanks for that background. I was only basing my comment on my own observations of the evangelical community. I had no idea their permissiveness in such matters was the result of political expediency. This is more a political cult than a religion really.
jl
@Another Holocene Human: Boehner got nice statements from Obama, Reid and Pelosi.
Put them together with Boehnerr actually deciding to do his damn job in a responsible and resolute way, the House Crazy Caucus will whipped up into such a froth, who knows who they will elect.
Speaker doesn’t have to be a member of the House, IIRC. They could try to elect David Duke if they wanted to. Or that militia nut begging for gas money so he can drive across country and try to citizen arrest a Congresswoman for voting for the Iran deal. Alex Jones? Glen Beck? Rush Limbaugh? The sky’s the limit!
Corner Stone
@Peale: Both Xfinity on demand or Amazon Prime.
I believe in paying for the work but damn nation. This is pushing me to p2p side.
redshirt
@Corner Stone: I bought the DVD for 10 bucks.
Chris
@Mandalay:
I always figured it was simply because divorce was the kind of sin that the average straight man can imagine himself doing (even if he doesn’t intend to at the moment) – whereas abortion and gay marriage aren’t.
Wasn’t aware that 1980 had been a watershed moment. God, that fucking dunce has so much to answer for. Everything in modern conservatism goes back to him.
Corner Stone
@redshirt: What’s a DVD?
beltane
@Chris: Conservatism made a deal with the devil and it looks like the devil is now coming to collect what’s owed him.
Corner Stone
@Chris:
Reagan’s got a god damn lot to answer for. Him and the racist fucking dixiecrat union members who voted for him then enfabled his BS legacy.
ETA, I’ve said here before that given a time machine where you could go back and off someone Reagan is a tight number 3 on my list.
redshirt
@Corner Stone: It’s like a CD, but with a DV.
redshirt
@Corner Stone:
Who’s number 1?
That’s a fun topic: Top five historical people you’d assassinate via time machine. First attempt:
1. Hitler
2. Stalin
3. Mao
4. Reagan
5. Mohammed
Mandalay
Here’s some hard pr0n for wingnuts:
Impeach her now!
Chris
@Corner Stone:
What, you’ve got two people who’re actually ahead of him?
(Is it Thatcher and Begin? That’s time traveling I can believe in).
Peale
@Corner Stone: that’s silly for a movie that is a year old. The best thing you can do is watch something else. It’s not like there’s only one film out there about a guy who takes revenge on the people who kill his dog.
Corner Stone
@redshirt: It’s like a Congressional District for Disabled Vets?
I am so confused right now.
Corner Stone
@redshirt: I thoroughly denounce Stalin!
But not the broccoli mandate. Fuck the haters.
redshirt
@Corner Stone:It’s like a laser disc but smaller.
Corner Stone
@Chris: I think my original argumentation was Hitler then whoever won a slugfest between Stalin and Pol Pot. Then Reagan. Then the loser of Stalin v Pot.
Another Holocene Human
@redshirt: Look, if you’re going to start assassinating religious leaders you’re going to have to include Pope Gregory VI The Great, not because he was a bad person (he wasn’t) but because he saved the Western Christian Orthodox Church from oblivion and helped spread the infection northwards.
I mean, was Mohammed really the problem or the people who came after him and killed each other trying to obtain control over the cult he founded?
I always felt like Brigham Young’s crimes were more enormous than Joseph Smith’s.
Corner Stone
@redshirt: Not helping.
WereBear
@beltane: The devil always does.
Peale
@redshirt: I’d probably just off ex lovers and that kid who dented my car. Doing it now would be too obvious. I’ve read too much alternate history to want mess with anyone well known.
redshirt
@Another Holocene Human:
Well, I only had 5 choices and felt Mohammed would be the more controversial choice. But seriously, the impact Islam had on the world from 630 AD to approximate 715AD is astounding. Theoretically removing Mohammed removes this impact. So for example without Islam maybe the Roman Empire is still around today. Buddhism would be a much bigger deal too.
Another Holocene Human
@Corner Stone: If you take out Stalin early enough, maybe there is no Pol Pot.
The right conditions have to feed that kind of crap.
By the same logic you could get rid of some Americans, and no Pol Pot. Kissinger, Nixon, and the Dulles brothers look pretty good to me.
Corner Stone
@Peale:
Why would you be reading the approved History books for Texas public schools?
redshirt
@Corner Stone: It’s like a VHS tape, but composed of light.
Another Holocene Human
@redshirt: Don’t you mean the empire in Constantinople? The plague of Justinian and my stupid barbarian ancestors had already driven the nails in the coffin of the Western Empire by then. Gregory spent a lot of his life begging Constantinople for help because Rome faced the constant threat of being sacked by Franks. (They never did help.)
Corner Stone
@redshirt: Good God. Is there papyrus somewhere on your list of comparables?
beltane
For any Catholic Church watchers out there, the Pope just raised quite a few eyebrows by using Latin during the Eucharist and by using Gregorian chant during communion. I would go to Mass every week just to hear Gregorian chant but that’s just me.
scav
@redshirt: Wonder how much science and philosophy and literature etc would be taken out with your purity. It’s not as though many marching around at the time were benevolently peaceful. Romans put up at least one column to a bout of their genocide.
Corner Stone
@beltane: I’m sorry but I am totes Poped out at this point.
Chris
@Corner Stone:
That sounds like a Supreme Court case.
Presumably involving the nation’s pot growers trying to prevent the imminent collectivization of their businesses.
Peale
@Corner Stone: ah I like this. So you’d go back, kidnap them, put them in your secret lair and have them go at each other for your amusement? Could we include that kid who dented my car and didn’t say sorry? If you did, I could be you minion (if you’re an evil mastermind) or sidekick (if you’re just trying to be a hero).
redshirt
@Another Holocene Human:
The so called “Byzantine Empire” WAS the Roman Empire.
This is something I only recently came to discover, and I wonder what compelled prior historians to mask it? I assume Catholicism, but that’s no excuse today.
While Rome “fell”, the Empire lived on for nearly a 1000 more years in Constantinople, though very marginalized at the end.
JPL
Wahoo! Tom Price my rep is considering the majority leadership position. Maybe we can get free stuff for my community if he wins.
beltane
@scav: Charlemagne exterminated a whole generation of Saxon males and yet seems to be missing from most lists of genocidal madmen.
redshirt
@Corner Stone: It’s a like a shiny LP.
Chris
@Another Holocene Human:
I don’t know enough about Mormonism to comment on that specific case, but it’s my impression that that’s the case with a lot of major worldviews.
And not necessarily even just religious. Karl Marx fits the bill. So does Adam Smith, probably.
redshirt
@scav:
You’re referring to the idea that early Islam preserved Greek knowledge during the European “Dark Ages”?
First, the dark ages weren’t all that dark. Second, you know who could have preserved Greek knowledge even better? Greek influenced nations in the Middle East and Central Asia. Freaking Afghanistan was a mix of Greek and Indian influence, prior to the arrival of Islam.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
Here’s what I think a lot of Democrats don’t understand about the Republican Party — from their POV, Clinton’s impeachment worked like a charm. It damaged Gore so that he lost the election on a 5-4 vote. It gave them everything they wanted. No wonder they’re pissed off that Boehner won’t give them Impeachment Part Deux. They think it’s their ticket to winning in 2016.
scav
@redshirt: Romans put a solid dent in the Greeks, if you hadn’t noticed. Your determination to only record the downsides of people you aren’t fond of while only seeing the good in others is duly recorded though.
Davis X. Machina
@Chris:
Fred Clark at Slacktivist has for a while been making the argument that Republican party positions drive American evangelical religious doctrines, and not the other way round.
The “Biblical view” that’s younger than the Happy Meal.
Baud
@redshirt:
Except a lot of those areas converted to Christianity, and when they did so, they rejected ancient knowledge. Early Christians did not value preservation. They were much like the Taliban today.
redshirt
@scav:
Please explain, as I don’t get your first point.
Also, as I said, if I had placed Jesus at number 5 I doubt most people here would care. But Mohammed?!
Cervantes
@MattF:
@Brachiator:
Thanks, but I’ll stand by what I wrote — which wasn’t much.
I’m off. Have a great evening.
Baud
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Republicans have not really been held accountable since 1980. They’ve suffered setbacks, but they really haven’t been punished for their behavior. This is why they are the way they are.
Keith G
@Corner Stone: I watched JW on HBO. I liked it but not sure I’d pop 15 for it, I mean, it sure wasn’t The Water Boy or anywhere close.
Davis X. Machina
@scav:
Only politically, and only at the highest levels.
By the first century AD, if not before, the average subject of the Roman empire was Greek-speaking, and the Greek cities of the eastern Roman empire were culturally and economically dominant, except for Rome itself. Alexandria was the empire’s second city, and it was Greek. All the largest cities, except for Rome and Carthage, were Greek.
Romanization as a policy was restricted to the frontiers, and mostly in the West.
Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit, as Horace remarked — Greece, once captured, captured its fierce conqueror.
Randy P
@beltane:
It can still be found. If you ever find yourself in Florence, Italy, check out San Miniato. They have a Gregorian chant mass every weekday and two on Sundays. It’s pretty cool. Plus the location, up in the hills above Florence away from the crazy tourist traffic in town, is nice and peaceful.
Baud
@redshirt:
The problem with Jesus is that he’d just keep coming back.
scav
@redshirt: Jesus wouldn’t work for similar reasons. You’re just looking for an argument at this point. Inspiring controversy as personal victory and evidence of deep thinking.
Chris
@Davis X. Machina:
Well, that, I sure agree with, but with the caveat that it’s always been that way – in the more general sense that political issues shape their religious beliefs rather than the other way around. (Whether those are expressed in the Republican Party today or the old segregationist Democratic Party yesterday…)
redshirt
@Baud:
The entirety of the Roman Empire was officially Christian, both Western Rome for its last 150 or so years, and Eastern Rome for near another 1000.
Also, Central Asia was never Christianized, but rather was either Zoroastrian or Buddhist. The Middle East prior to Islam was heavily Persian influenced, and thus again, Zoroastriansim was a big factor, alongside pockets of Christianity.
jl
@scav: Not sure how Islam was in a significant way responsible for ending the Roman Empire. The Romans themselves and European pagan tribes had a bigger hand.
Unless he means the husk of the Byzantine that died in the fifteenth century, and which had already suffered severe damage at that hands of themselves (civil war) and the Christian Crusades.Venice took over the place and plundered it, IIRC.
And I think early Islamic civilization did more than preserve Greek philosophy, logic and mathematics. It made many important advances. And the first mongol hordes were pagan. They picked up Buddhism and Islam from the more civilized areas they conquered.
Maybe redshirt can explain all that.
beltane
@Randy P: I would love to find myself in Florence, Italy. One day…
SoupCatcher
@Baud:
But what if you killed Judas?
redshirt
@scav:
Hmm. Assassinating Jesus circa 15 AD would certainly have changed history in major ways. Not sure why you disagree.
Chris
@redshirt:
Why would you think that? Even the most fervently anti-Christian lefties I’ve read rarely put much of the blame on Jesus.
Baud
@redshirt:
I’m not sure what the point is of your response. You seem to believe that non-Muslims would have preserved ancient knowledge better than Muslims did, and I’m saying that’s speculative at best.
Davis X. Machina
@Baud: No Nestorian Christians in the East, no Greeks or Greek texts to spark the Abbasid Translation Movement.
jl
@redshirt: Not sure what you are arguing at this point.
Chris
@SoupCatcher:
The Roman treasury would save thirty pieces of silver. I’m sure the deficit hawks of the era would be grateful.
scav
@Davis X. Machina: but I had the impression that their scientific, mechanical and philosophical glory days were rather in the rear mirror by that point, and the Romans didn’t have much of a mind to encourage that sort of thing. Tame comfortable philosophers as pets were fine, but the novelty rather bled away.
Van Buren
Re: Speaker of the House- Trump should get the job, since he’s so goddam good at negotiating, the R’s will get everything they want from Obama, Reid, Pelosi & Co in a New York minute.
Re: the time machine. After Hitler and Stalin, next on my list is John Wilkes Booth.
beltane
@Chris: Emperor Constantine gets most of the blame, maybe St. Paul. But what if Catherine of Aragon gave Henry VIII lots of healthy sons? Then we wouldn’t have Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell. Instead of imaging the early deaths of dead people, we can just imagine all kinds of other “what ifs”.
redshirt
@jl:
First off and most importantly, the Byzantines were the Roman Empire. There’s no debate about this, even if we are not taught this fact. They referred to themselves as the Roman Empire.
And yes, Islam played a major role in the eventual destruction of the East Roman Empire. When Islam first exploded out of Arabia in the 630s, East Rome was well underway in reconquering the entirety of the old empire. That failed quickly as the jihad swept from Spain through North Africa into the Middle East and onto Central Asia, and swiftly thereafter into India and SE Asia.
So, remove that 100 year period, and what’s left? Eastern Rome reconsolidating the Empire. Would that change our history? Yeah!
scav
@redshirt: Because people will just come up with another religious or other reason to kill each other. The number of cult religions wandering about at the time leave a plethora of options, and people are generally pretty self-starting at inventing manias and then weaponizing them.
redshirt
@jl:
Um, a “What if you had a time machine and went back in time and assassinated people” scenario.
It’s pretty speculative as I do not own a time machine.
Chris
@beltane:
I’ve always liked the people who say “if you had a time machine, don’t kill Hitler – just make sure he’s accepted to art school.”
It must be the Doctor Who / MacGyver / Batman / [insert other hero who tries not to kill people] fan in me.
mclaren
@Brachiator:
Except for spending money like drunken sailors on the U.S. military…and on massive panopticon surveillance of U.S. citizens…and on a homegrown Stasi that turns the United States into an armed garison camp under undeclared martial law.
Yeah, except for the 1 trillion dollar-plus America pisses away on that stuff, they want to stop spending.
Hint: 1 trillion a year is more than the U.S. gov’t spends on medicare + social security combined.
Baud
@redshirt:
The eastern Roman Empire was never going to permanently reconsolidate the western Empire.
jl
@Baud: There was quite a battle between different sects of Christianity over correct attitude towards pagan knowledge. Not sure it is fair to say one side was dominant overall throughout the Dark Ages.
redshirt
@Baud:
I’m speculating on a world that had no Islam. It’s all speculation.
scav
And I’m not quite sure why the Reconquista by the Eastern Western Roman Empire is good, while that of Islam is bad, but hey.
redshirt
@Baud:
That cannot be proven, of course, and they were doing a pretty good job of it, till they had some problems with Jihad.
redshirt
@scav:
This is the response I anticipated.
Baud
@jl:
Where in Christendom was ancient knowledge preserved before the Renaissance?
jl
@redshirt: OK, fine, whatever. Ramble on.
The Byzantine Empire was certainly NOT ‘The Roman Empire’, it was the half remaining after the whole Roman Empire imploded with the help of European barbarian invasions.
And are you saying that Western Europe was very supportive of the Byzantine Empire, and that damage from Western Europe played no crucial role in its decline?
Baud
@redshirt:
They didn’t have the wherewithal to keep the Germanic tribes at bay over the long term, IMHO. Too many had embedded themselves in the Western Empire.
Mandalay
@mclaren:
We spend more on the military because it gives more bang for the buck.
Chris
@Baud:
In re the whole “Byzantine Empire was Roman Empire” thing, I seem to recall that the question of who the real heir/continuation of the Roman Empire was, was actually a common argument and sore point (very, very sore) between the Byzantines and some of the powers that rose up in what was left of the Western Empire.
I’ve read that some ambassador provoked a major diplomatic incident by referring to Otto I (Holy Roman Emperor) as “Emperor of the Romans” and his Byzantine counterpart only as “Emperor of the Greeks.”
ETA: also, why is it called “the Byzantine Empire” when the name of its capital had already changed from Byzantium to Constantinople? Simply because it’s less of a mouthful? (That’s a perfectly understandable reason, I’m just curious if anyone knows).
jl
@Baud: Monasteries lucky enough to be spared destruction in political turmoil, invasions and wars.
Corner Stone
@redshirt:
Psssssttt…*1600 Pennsylvania Ave*…just sayin’
Baud
@jl:
True, but I don’t think there was much thought given to preservation. They didn’t appreciate what they were preserving for the most part.
Origuy
@beltane:
And if he hadn’t done that, their neighbors, the Norse, might not have been so brutal toward the Christians when they went a-viking.
jl
@Baud: I’ve read that what was left of the Western Roman Empire was pretty much finished off with the devastation that accompanied Justinian’s attempts at reconquest. The timing wasn’t quite right for Islam to have much impact on that.
redshirt
@jl:
I know it’s a shocking idea – it shocked me when I first discovered it – but so called Byzantium (a name they never gave themselves) was entirely the Roman Empire. The same government, the same customs, and sure while they spoke Greek, they were speaking Greek back in 300 AD in Rome proper.
For example, the most crushing loss the East Romans experienced was in 1071 at the hands of the relatively recently Islamified and arrived Turks, who subsequently took over most of Anatolia and thus we know it today as Turkey. The leader of the Roman army was the Emperor Romanos IV Diogenes, also known as Romanus IV.
Sounds pretty Roman, yes?
jl
@Baud: No I don’t agree if we are talking about logic, mathematics and physics. Not very well known now, but there was a lot of work based on the ancients that is still interesting and discussed.
In fact, in science, the problem was that the monks had too much respect for Aristotle, since they kept working on assumption that his ideas about impetus, for example, were useful
Baud
@jl:
Aristotle is a unique case because the early Church fathers tried to use his philosophy to justify Christian theology.
Did the monks spend a lot of time studying Archimedes?
redshirt
@jl:
East Roman invasions of Italy were very harmful for the preservation of Italian Roman infrastructure. But the invasions of Islam started soon after and swept the East Romans from all of it, either by actual defeat in battle or because they could no longer support far flung territories. The East Romans lost a lot of territory to Islam, very quickly. And some 800 years later, they finished them.
The Crusades didn’t help.
Matt McIrvin
@Another Holocene Human: Early, rapid marriage and high divorce rates go hand in hand. You see that if, for instance, you plot marriage and divorce rates across states. Evangelicals have both.
jl
@redshirt: Yes. But I think the indisputable historical fact is that, in terms of power, territory controlled and influence, it was not the whole Roman Empire, and processes that destroyed the original version had great impact before Islam existed.
And I think it is easy to argue that Western Europe has as much to do with Byzantine decline as Islam.
So Islamic forces finally and permanently conquered the husk of Bysantium that was left after, for example, Crusader mercenaries working for Venice sacked it, and Venice hollowed it out.
So, that means Islam was the deciding factor?
Well, this whole thing has gotten so speculative and aurgments so precious I am not interested anymore.
Cervantes
@Chris:
The people who lived in it called it Imperium Romanum (“the Empire of the Romans”).
Whereas it was sixteenth-century historian Hieronymus Wolf who christened it “the Byzantine Empire.”
jl
@redshirt:
” The Crusades didn’t help. ”
We agree there.
I assume you would agree Justinian’s attempts at reconquest did not help.
so, I suppose we agree enough to call it day.
Thoughtful Today
“SPLITTERS!”
Tenar Darell
@Corner Stone: Fantastic action sequences. Revenge movie with some really great actors in secondary roles. NOT worth $15 though.
What are you trying to watch it on? On demand for your first born network?
(FYI: IIRC HBO is running it currently. HBOGo is $9.99/mo, I think)
Poopyman
@redshirt:
I doubt many here consider him an historical figure. At best, I suspect the Bible’s Jesus is an amalgam of Jewish nationalists during the Roman occupation.
redshirt
@jl:
Of course, but without Islam, there’s no Crusades.
You remember the beginning of this conversation, yes? Speculative “who would you kill in a time machine”? The idea being taking out one historical person would have the biggest positive benefit, theoretically.
Citizen Alan
@Chris:
Heh. We are actually in the middle of a Doctor Who 2-parter in which the Doctor is confronted with the choice of whether or not to kill a 10-year-old adorable moppet named Davros.
jl
@Baud: Not sure. IIRC, took quite a while for important Greek math logic and scientific texts to get to Europe, through Islamic scholars.
As for philosophy, IIRC, a lot of Greek thought in for eample, Origen, but he got himself hereticked into oblivion for a long time.
It is a mixed bag I think.
NonyNony
@redshirt: Ýou seem to be under thr mistaken impession that Islam is somehow independent of Christianity. It isn’t – it is pretty clearly a Christian offshoot religion that took on a life of its own (much like how Christianity is pretty clearly an offshoot of Judaism that took on a life of its own). Kill Mohammed and you would just end up with a similar religion with a different founder. Same is true of Christianity if you kill Jesus. The appearance of both religions seems to have much more to do with cultural factors at the time they exploded than anything unique about their founders.
Matt McIrvin
@Cervantes: Not only that, when the Turks took Constantinople, the Ottoman Sultan added “Caesar of Rome” to his list of titles. Not that anyone else took it terribly seriously, but if you did, you could say that the Roman Empire fell in 1922.
Mike in NC
The John Wick flick is streaming on HBO Go, which is free to regular HBO subscribers.
redshirt
@NonyNony:
I am fully aware of the antecedants of both Islam and Christianity. As you say, both are offshoots of Judaism.
I’m referring more to the lightning-esque spread of the religion via conquest in the 600’s and and 700’s. It’s akin to the Mongol conquests 600 years later, but imbued with ideology. The Mongols left little behind, whereas Islam changed the nature of every territory it conquered or converted. Can the same be said for Christianity? Was it Jesus that stopped the Vikings from Viking?
Chris
@NonyNony:
This is, to be fair, the problem not only with this but with the entire “if you could kill one person…” line of questions. It’s not as though killing Hitler would end the the nationalism and festering resentment in Germany, or killing Stalin would end the Soviet Union, or killing Reagan would end the right wing tide that had been rising since the sixties. The individuals are always part of a much bigger picture.
redshirt
@Matt McIrvin:
Exactly. It’s mind blowing, and yet we’re not taught these facts, but rather a canned version of “Rome fell in 532 AD because of Germans and then everything was bad for a long time because of Germans, then some plague, and a Renaissance, and then more German badness, and here we are.”
I don’t agree with this by the way. The Ottomans were not a continuation of Rome, but a conqueror. Rome officially ended in 1453 with the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans.
Steeplejack (tablet)
@Corner Stone:
If you have HBO, it’s on HBOZ at 9:00 p.m. EDT Saturday, HBOP at 3:25 a.m. Tuesday. Also on HBO On Demand for no additional charge.
redshirt
@Chris:
While this might be generally true, I do believe there are charismatic individuals throughout history that are far more important than most folks because of their charisma. And luck, and good timing, etc. They get people to follow them, and then massive change happens. If the era aligns, then it’s a real big deal. If the era doesn’t, maybe these same people are killed or imprisoned instead.
For example, if there were actual charismatic Republicans existing today, I’d fear for all our lives as they could probably anoint themselves Emperor, given the general climate.
Corner Stone
@Mike in NC:
What am I? Some kind of multi-thousandaire playboy like Steeplejack or some shit?
pete
@redshirt: The Mongols left little behind
Well, probably a whole lot of descendants … meaning that going back and assassinating Genghis might have some unexpected consequences. Between bouts of rape and pillage, he might have spread the Black Death too (allegedly).
redshirt
@pete:
Genghis would be another great candidate for the time machine kill list.
And I think it’s certain the Mongols spread the black death to Europe. Not on purpose, but wouldn’t it be kinda cool if it was? Like the smallpox blankets Europeans gave to Native Americans?
redshirt
Action fans should watch John Wick. Please report back your reviews.
Chris
@redshirt:
Fun fact; there was a myth in the days of the Crusades about “Prester John,” the ruler of a far off Christian kingdom on the other side of the Islamic lands (it’s now thought that Ethiopia was the origin of these stories), which some Crusaders fantasized about one day linking up with in order to attack Islam from both sides. When stories first started circulating of an Asian warlord who’d been beating the crap out of some Muslims, there was hope that it might be this “Prester John” finally getting in on the crusading.
Alack and alas, it was actually Genghis Khan.
pete
@redshirt: You can still see the blip on the population-growth chart … now, that’s an achievement.
Steeplejack (tablet)
@Corner Stone:
Multi-hundredaire, please. I have no need to overstate my wealth like that upstart Trump.
redshirt
@Chris:
Indeed! A cool theory I read about why Russia is so weird states that the Mongol overlordship of Russia – which lasted for 200 and more years – caused Russia to develop in both isolation and oppression, which is now reflected in their culture today.
mclaren
@Mandalay:
Absolutely. Winning all those wars over the past 50 years is worth every penny. That big win in Vietnam, that huge triumph in Iraq, our gigantic conquest of Afghanistan…worth a trillion dollars a year easily.
mclaren
@redshirt:
Interesting. I wonder if the white puritans’ overlordship of America — which lasted for 200 or more years — has caused America to develop in both isolation and oppression, which is now reflected in our sick sadistic torture-porn-obsessed ultraviolent sexually repressed culture today.
mclaren
@redshirt:
A ridiculous film that goes so far beyond the bounds of observed reality that the real world is not visible from that movie even by space probe.
I mean, just to take one example: Keanu Reeves gets shot multiple times, then takes 1 (one) injection of a painkiller and some stomach staples, and he’s good to go with multiple kung fu-type action beats including climbing the walls over an opponent’s head and beating multiple baddies up at once.
In the real world, when you get shot, you spend the next 6 weeks in the hospital breathing through a tube, and at the very best the rest of your life in a wheelchair with a colostomy bag.
In the sequel, JOHN WICK 2, I expect Keanu to take multiple hits from a minigun and a grenade exploding in his mouth. The result will be to improve his tooth bleaching.
Corner Stone
@mclaren:
I doubt that’s true, and I challenge you to prove it by providing links to 6, or 8, or a dozen…or more links that will show us all what you say is correct.
Or stand revealed as a liar!
redshirt
@mclaren: It is a ridiculous film, sometimes overtly so – the hotel concierge scenes, for example. The plot is paper thin, seemingly intentionally, which is interesting.
mclaren
@Corner Stone:
No problemo. Prepare to drown in a tidal wave of proof:
Source: “Now Playing at Your Local Multiplex: Torture Porn — Why has America gone nuts for blood, guts, and sadism?” New York Movies, 6 December 2011.
Source: “Mainstream movies are getting darker and more violent. And as Quentin Tarantino’s latest project, Grindhouse, demonstrates, the worst of the violence is often directed at women — Kira Cochrane on the rise of ‘torture porn’ “ The Guardian May 2007.
More proof in the next post…
mclaren
@redshirt:
If you want the real deal, check out Bullet In the Head (1990), directed by John Woo, the ultimate gun battle action film. No gaijin director has ever produced anything even remotely comparable, including Peckinpah.
Note: do not confuse this Hong Kong kung fu action flick with Walter Hill’s American-made “A Bullet In the Head.” That’s like comparing the Mona Lisa with a painting of a big-eyed puppy.
mclaren
@Corner Stone:
More proof for you:
Source: “Trauma and the rhetoric of horror films : the rise of torture porn in a post Nine-Eleven world,” University of Texas dissertations.
Source: “The meaning of torture porn,” Salon.com, 8 June 2010.
Coming up, more proof…
Princess
@redshirt: Justinian’s attempt to rebuild the old Eastern Empire had failed long before the Muslims arrived. The Visigoths had chucked the greeks out of Spain a century before the Muslims invaded.
mclaren
And now@Corner Stone:
And now overwhelming evidence of America’s fanatical puritanism and hatred and fear of sexuality and loathing of the human body:
The award-winning documentary “Give Me Sex Jesus,” about American religious sexual represesion.
North Carolina teenager charged with multiple child porn felonies by prosecutor for sexting naked images of himself to his teen girlfriend.
mclaren
@Corner Stone:
Poor Corner Stone…he tried to get into a pissing match with me, and now he needs scuba gear.
More proof of America’s fanatical puritanism and loathing of pleasure and fear of sex:
Why I Think Everyone Should Try Abstinence for a Year” XoJane.com.
Only in a massively sexually repressed country like America would you see something this deluded and this bizarre.
Compare with how teen sexuality gets treated in Europe, where in most countries the age of consent is 14:
“Would You Let Your Teen’s Boyfriend/Girlfriend Sleep Over?” The Daily Mail,
And of course, plenty more proof coming up in the next half dozen posts…
mclaren
@Corner Stone:
Corner Stone is now up to his ears in proof, but the proof continues to pour in. Soon we’ll see bubbles coming from his mouth and we’ll hear lots of GLUB GLUB noises:
John Oliver hammers away at “some incredible misinformation in American sex education,” which overwhelmingly emphasizes abstinence and often contains factually incorrect claims about human sexuality.
And of course America goes out of its way to punish all forms of teen sexuality, effectively criminalizing sex entirely for people under age 18:
19-year-old boy meets and bangs a girl on tinder.com, now will spend 25 years on the sex offender registry because he had sex with a girl who lied about her age.
This is unheard-of in Europe. Europeans can’t believe Americans do this, it’s incomprehensible to them, just like America’s incomprehensible amounts of police violence or our ultra-violent video games and hyperviolent movies — which must be edited to remove the extreme violence when we ship ’em to Europe.
See for example the article “Switzerland Bans Violent Video Games, Germany Bans MMA on TV,” Dailytech website.
In America limitless violence is welcomed eagerly in videogames and movies — in Shithole America, it’s sex that gets banned. Just scroll through some of the links to the 2-plus years of legal wranling over Janet Jackson’s 10-second nipple slip at the Super Bowl.
More proof of America’s fanatical puritanism and hatred of sex and fear of the human body coming up…
Steeplejack (tablet)
@Corner Stone:
Thanks a lot, A-hole!
Steeplejack (tablet)
@mclaren:
No, he’s off doing something enjoyable and laughing at how easy it was to play you. He tickled your Li’l Professor nerve and you’ve been thumping like a dog doing the involuntary leg scratch.
redshirt
@Princess:
The Eastern Romans had conquered much of Italy in the late 600’s, when the Islamic wave arrived.
Chris
@Steeplejack (tablet):
“Please proceed, Governor!”
Corner Stone
.
mclaren
@Steeplejack (tablet):
So let’s think this through…
If I provide evidence, I’m a fool and a dupe. If I don’t provide evidence, I’m a liar.
What is wrong with this logic…?
Let’s try your reasoning applied to you:
If you object to my posts it’s because you hate my facts, showing that you’re a sociopathic compulsive pathological liar. If you don’t object to my posts it’s because you ignore any posts that disprove your claims, once again showing that you’re a sociopathic compulsive pathological liar.
Two can play at the game of bizarrely twisted logic, buckaroo.
rikyrah
@Corner Stone:
John Wick rocks. Pair it with The Equalizer.
Omnes Omnibus
@rikyrah: I hated John Wick but liked The Equalizer.
mclaren
@Omnes Omnibus:
The Equalizer had a moral center. Plus, Denzel. How can you go wrong with Denzel?
In John Wick, the bogey man strangles, stabs and gut-shots people because…they killed his dog.
Plus, it has (ugh) Keanu.
Should’ve been called John Wick’s Excellent Adventure.
mclaren
Some non-American-made recent films worth watching:
The Norwegian stop-motion animated feature the Boxtrolls (2014). Cute, quirky, and ingenious, with wonderful animation.
Legendary Primer director Shane Caruth’s next feature, Upstream Color (2013). Mind-blowing, bizarre, and about as close to experimental cinema as a mainstream feature will ever get.
Indian film Dil Dhadakne Do (Let the Heart Beat) (2015), about a dsyfunctional Indian family. Great voice-over narration with lots of wonderfully observed characters.
Indie film Whiplash (2014), about a talented drum student who suffers under the yoke of an unbelievably abusive but incredibly good teacher. The student’s journey through self-doubt into mastery is superb, and heartwarming.
Once Upon A Time in Anatolia (2011), a fabulous slow-burn Turkish film only tangentially about a murder.
Any of these is worlds better than John Wick and The Equalizer put together.
working class hero
@redshirt:
“he’s not the boogey man – he’s the one you send to kill the boogey man!
Amir Khalid
@mclaren:
The Boxtrolls, Norwegian? The film was made by Laika Entertainment, which per Wikipedia is HQ’d in Hillsboro, Oregon
Chris
@rikyrah:
@Omnes Omnibus:
Love The Equalizer… as in, the eighties TV show. Haven’t seen the movie yet; how does it compare, good, or did they just slap the name on a generic action movie to spice it up?
The Other Chuck
@Davis X. Machina:
You’re off by about 400 years. Constantinople wasn’t even founded (more like “rebranded”, since Byzantium had been around for forever) til 330 AD. Trajan brought the empire to its largest extent ever in the second century. It’s true the Romans had a cultural inferiority complex, adopting Greek culture as more refined and civilized from damn near day one, but it’s still Latin-based languages they’re speaking in Europe, not Greek.
The Other Chuck
@redshirt:
It had been making the rounds in Europe about a thousand years before then, though possibly brought over by the Huns. In fact, the Mongols might have been one of the few invading peoples at the time to actually kill more people with their swords than with disease.