"Bush’s plan is crystal clear. It is made of good old-fashioned, gigantic, regressive, debt-financed tax cuts."
http://t.co/qvKPOMYS3j
— Bob Schooley (@Rschooley) September 10, 2015
The @taxfoundation distributional analysis of Jeb is out. The top 1% get an 11.6% (!) increase in after-tax income. http://t.co/BXdmnV7Np0
— Richard Rubin (@RichardRubinDC) September 10, 2015
Got to nerd out with @edatpost and @jimtankersley. Jeb!'s tax plan could cost $3.4t over a decade http://t.co/XD0DW3xMwB
— Kelsey Snell (@kelsey_snell) September 10, 2015
Jeb Bush's tax plan would save Jeb Bush a lot of money. $800k, in fact. I just did his taxes for him: http://t.co/9tQwqTZo8x
— Catherine Rampell (@crampell) September 10, 2015
"We need to let the big dog eat."
Jeb! defending his $3.4 trillion tax cut for the 1% plan
No, really. He said that.
http://t.co/Zr38kO1BXT
— Billmon (@billmon1) September 10, 2015
I mean, who looks at the economy and says "You know what went wrong in the 2000s? We didn't cut high income people's taxes enough"
— Austan Goolsbee (@Austan_Goolsbee) September 9, 2015
The gullibility some in the press are showing about Bush's tax plan would be shocking to someone who hadn't watched the 2000 campaign.
— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) September 10, 2015
Professor Krugman, “Dynamic Voodoo“:
We have a first score on the Jeb! tax plan — in answer to Matt O’Brien, I think we refer to this as the Bush! tax! cuts! It’s $3.4 trillion in lost revenue. But most of this will be made up through higher growth, Bush’s advisers, led by Glenn Hubbard, assure us. And that’s highly credible, right?…
On substance, the supply-siders have covered themselves in, well, whatever is the opposite of glory since 2008 — predicting runaway inflation and soaring interest rates, disaster from tax hikes both nationally and in Jerry Brown’s California, triumph in Brownback’s Kansas, and on and on.
But what really gets me is that Bush imagines that these are the endorsements he needs. Do Republican base voters care what Stephen Moore says? Do they even know who he is? Endorsements from the supply-siders may matter for big-money donations, but Jeb! already has plenty of those, and his hundred million is doing him no good at all…
2nd day in a row, Bush mentions bipartisan '86 tax deal by name-dropping Reagan, Bradley, Rostenkowski, O’Neill, Bush, Packwood
— Ed O'Keefe (@edatpost) September 10, 2015
"I’m a candidate for president that doesn’t have anger in my heart" – Jeb tells the crowd.
— Ed O'Keefe (@edatpost) September 10, 2015
"Or a new idea in my head." https://t.co/8o3pZdLIEd
— Bob Schooley (@Rschooley) September 10, 2015
boatboy_srq
Fiscal responsibility from the “deficits don’t matter” crowd.
Elizabelle
And the NYTimes calls it “populist.”
Schlemazel
The big dog has to eat and we’re all dog food
A Ghost To Most
Not anger, but avarice
Schlemazel
@A Ghost To Most:
And nothing in my head!!
Mike in NC
Our crappy local paper today ran the Washington Post endorsement of JEB!’s tax plan to screw over everybody not rich in order to reward the top 1%. No surprises there.
Derelict
I know people who will reap enormous benefits from Bush’s tax plan. Interestingly, most of those people are appalled by the prospect of even more tax cuts. As one of my 1% friends put it, “I would keep more of my money, but it would be at the expense of the country’s well being. And I kinda need the country to be healthy if I want to stay wealthy.”
benw
“Jeb! We’ve got a big problem!”
“What!?”
“Trump’s making you look bad, everyone’s calling you a loser!”
“What do we do?”
“We gotta do something big, real big, to make you look like a strong winner!”
“I could name W and Cheney as my advisors on the Middle East! Plus a photo op!”
“Uhh, something else.”
“Like what!?”
“Hey, is that Glenn Hubbard and Martin Feldman outside?”
“Guys, could you help us out here…?”
Linda Featheringill
@Schlemazel:
“The big dog has to eat and we’re all dog food.”
Yup. Basic capitalism.
PurpleGirl
@Derelict: But who will they vote for? Who have they voted for in the past?
Paul in KY
Maybe he should be eaten by a big dog. Think that would help US more.
Another Holocene Human
@Derelict:
The Bushes have made it a habit to have one foot out the door.
Just in case.
Schlemazel
I work with a guy who’s closely attuned to the true wing nuts. The latest rumor making the rounds of the black helicopter crowd is that FEMA has an order in for fifteen thousand guillotines. It’s interesting how they could take the anger at the 1% and believe that the government was going to turn that anger against Christians and set up guillotines in all the cities around the country the lop off Christian heads
NotMax
Even at today’s prices, $800K buys a lot of smoke and mirrors.
Debbie
@Linda Featheringill: @Schlemazel:
If there’s any justice, that remark will be his Romney 47% moment.
SteveinSC
St.Ronnie!Jeb! Stockman!? David Stockman? has anyone seen David Stockman? “It’s kind of hard to sell ‘trickle down.'” so was born “…Supply-side is ‘trickle-down’ theory..” — David Stockman, WikipediaSchlemazel
@Debbie:
Justice? What an interesting concept
PurpleGirl
I’m reposting this from below.
From 1776: Cool, Cool Considerate Men
http://crooksandliars.com/susi…..s-are-stil
“… But don’t forget that most men without property would rather protect the possibility of becoming rich, than face the reality of being poor.”
ETA: I think most people DO NOT UNDERSTAND how rich men become rich. Or how much money really constitutes being rich.
ETA 2: Do people really understand what it means to have more money than you can spend in one life time, not to say more than that?
The Republicans want the rest of us to poor and in such a condition that they can return voting privileges to only those who have property.
Omnes Omnibus
The big dog? Why is Jeb? talking about Bill Clinton? It’s Hillary he should worry about.
benw
@Schlemazel:
Oh my God, that’s the stupidest thing ever. How can these idiots be so dumb? Obviously FEMA is only buying one guillotine and using it 15,000 times.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Schlemazel: Well, the 1% had a problem. Can’t have the proles pissed at them, proles makes their drinks and shine their shoes and fly their planes. Dangerous. So they are redirecting, as hard and fast as they can, to anything else that is not them.
I personally am thinking we’ll see a massive rise in overt racism, myself.
PurpleGirl
Anyone else find it interesting that one of the ads today is for owning gold and not just buying gold but how important it is to physically own the gold yourself?
Patricia Kayden
George W. Bush eviscerated the surplus that President Clinton left for him. Interesting that Jebbie is already pre-planning to eviscerate whatever economic surplus President Obama may leave for him. As if the Rich need any more economic help from the government.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/12/inequality-between-americas-rich-and-americas-poor-at-30-year-high/383866/
Sherparick
@Elizabelle: I would encourage you and everyone to e-mail Margaret Sullivan, the NY Times Public editor, and complain about the article. She at least will give the political editors and writers a difficult hour of so explaining why they write rightwing fairy stories and call it journalism.
I extract this from Robert Waldman’s comments on Timesmen “beat sweetener” endorsement of JEB! tax plan and its war with Josh Barro and the numbers folks at the Times’s Upshot blog analysis of the aggressive nature.
“The front page includes a link to Barro’s article but the headline on the Rappaport and Flegenheimer article has regressed describing huge tax cuts for the rich as “populism”. The NYTimes headline writer is debating with himself or herself. I guess the insane new main headline was needed to Ballance Barro. – See more at: http://angrybearblog.com/2015/09/rapid-progress-towards-real-reporting-at-the-new-york-times.html#sthash.TgS4UnBk.dpuf
A Ghost To Most
Has anyone/everyone else seen the Opportunity Lives commercials by the repigs that are now flooding the airwaves in CO (and apparently OH as well)?
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/65a230e3ca2b45558f8be06de05992a8/pro-republican-ads-funded-group-untraceable-donors
Linda Featheringill
@Debbie:
Amen.
Another Holocene Human
@PurpleGirl:
The Magna Carta was only for the baron class.
There’s a certain breed of WASP (or WASP wannabe) who loves that idea.
The US never had a universal suffrage movement or law. We got it piecemeal. That’s why it’s so easy to stop people from voting. It’s not protected as the inviolable right that it should be.
Randy P
@Schlemazel: I’m amazed at how many people are spouting the “they’re persecuting Christians for their religion” line. Um, besides Kim Davis, what’s the count of Christians “persecuted for their religion” up to now? Are you sure there was no interaction between her and a judge, and no charge brought against her besides being a Christian?
They know the facts, I’m sure. And yet manage to not know them at the same time.
Personally, if I were in the crowd that was all revved up about Ebola a few months ago (“IT’S ALREADY HERE!” one of the wingnuts at work was screaming), and then got no mention of Ebola since, that alone would be enough to make me say “Hmm, maybe some of these panics are not warranted”.
But no. They can always be counted on to forget last week’s panic and focus on this week’s.
Paul in KY
@Schlemazel: Guillotines!? Jeeszus, at what point do they understand that they are being lied to every freaking day.
We are commies & it would be 1 RWNJ, 1 bullet. Duh!
maya
Jeb! needs to sell his tax plan as an “average tax cut” like Dubya did – say $1500. You low tier peeps get a $15 cut each and the 1% get a $1.5 mill cut each, which averages $1500. See? Worked before.
Paul in KY
@benw: That would be another, smarter interpretation :-)
Linda Featheringill
Off topic:
Apparently, the Iran nuclear deal will go through. Dems have enough votes in the Senate to prevent an override of a veto AND to filibuster if they want to. By my arithmetic, Dems in the House only need one more vote to prevent an override of a veto.
Brachiator
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Have you been out of the country since, say, 2008?
Paul in KY
@PurpleGirl: If you ‘buy’ the gold & do not physically own the gold after purchase, that could be a big problem, IMO.
Are they doing time-share gold with the rubes now?
Paul in KY
@maya: Don’t give him any ideas!!!
Oatler.
@PurpleGirl: LEST WE FORGET Nixon leaned on Jack Warner to cut that number from the film. “We were free before Obummer’s hippie activist judges!”
Villago Delenda Est
John Elllis Bush is a menace to this country. As much as Al Qaida was 14 years ago.
He should be dealt with accordingly.
trollhattan
@Schlemazel:
Heh, I smell a DougJ operation. “Both sides chop it.”
benw
@Paul in KY: Just had my second cup of coffee so my thinking tubes are firing!
Brachiator
From the Bloomberg News story:
Businesses and financiers will do fine. Ordinary people, not so much.
boatboy_srq
@Derelict:
This is the one 1%er sentiment that really matters – but it’s also the one 1%er sentiment that the Reichwing just cannot seem to comprehend.
@Mike in NC: Exactly how many readers of the crappy local paper would benefit from HEB!’s tax plan? That should be a “tell” right there.
Villago Delenda Est
@PurpleGirl: They want a return to feudalism. They want the rest of us to tug our forelocks when they past.
This is why I talk about tumbrels so often. These assholes deserve that fate. They’re doing everything they can to arrange for it, as it is.
Wipe them out. All of them.
Calouste
@Another Holocene Human: One of the biggest cons the ruling classes of the Anglo-Saxon world have pulled is that they have convinced the lower classes that there was democracy since 1215, where as in reality neither the US nor the UK had one person one vote until the second half of the 20th century. And yes, anything that isn’t one person one vote I don’t consider a true democracy.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@Elizabelle: @Mike in NC: Have the Times and Post really endorsed this pathetic repeat of W’s budget busting tax cut? Because, I thought the serious people were serious about the deficit…apparently they’re only serious when there’s a “D” in the White House or the plan involves inflicting pain on grandma and the poors.
gene108
This is a good tax plan.
It appeases the Job Creators.
Without this appeasement, I fear we will be reduced to sacrificing Vestal virgins to the Job Creators to appease them enough to keep creating jobs.
I fear one day the Job Creators will grow angry with us and stop creating jobs, at which time we will all starve for not having money with which to buy food.
But John Bush’s tax plan will keep that horrible day from happening. The Job Creators will be pleased with it.
I therefore endorse John Bush’s tax plan.
Villago Delenda Est
@maya: It’s like when Bill Gates walks into a room, the average income of the room gets higher by several orders of magnitude.
It’s incredibly stupid, but this is hunky dory in the feeble minds of the GOP base.
PurpleGirl
@Paul in KY:
Are they doing time-share gold with the rubes now?
I don’t know; I haven’t clicked through to see what the whole pitch is. It wouldn’t surprise me that this one is connected in some way to Glenn Beck. There’s been a series of ads over time from Ron Paul and others for financial advisers and their newsletters.
Villago Delenda Est
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: “Ronald Reagan proved that deficits don’t matter” — The Dark Lord of the Sith
scav
@Schlemazel: Guillotines? For rounded up christians?! I thought we were going for the crowd-pleasing ecologically green route: Lions!. And then finely grinding the pious deceased and undigested into fertilizer and holy-rollering them across our lawns. That’s why everyone was so upset about Cecil.
boatboy_srq
@benw: Assuming one execution every fifteen minutes (time enough to clean up between beheadings), that one guillotine would be busy for about six months taking care of those 15,000 uses. 15,000 guillotines would take care of about 21.5 million in the same time frame. That’s pretty darned close to the 27% crazification factor in the US electorate, no?
redshirt
@scav:
OBUMMER is saving the lions just so he can feed Christians to them.
Omnes Omnibus
@Calouste: If anyone had the belief that the Magna Carta did anything but place codify some limits on the absolute power of the English monarch, that person is confused.
Gin & Tonic
@Paul in KY: I knew a guy who was fairly paranoid — not a complete gold bug, but believed in holding physical metal. Had a safe deposit box with a good quantity. Died unexpectedly. At that point his wife came to the realization that he hadn’t told her where the safe deposit box was. Pretty awkward.
boatboy_srq
@CONGRATULATIONS!: That’s been the last seven years. Should HRC be elected in ’16 we’ll see the overt racism matched by a rise in overt sexism (during which, of course, the overt racism won’t abate).
Paul in KY
@Villago Delenda Est: I agree. They just ache to be called ‘Duke’ and ‘Count’ and ‘Grand Moff’. Are very envious of ‘nobility’ in GB.
Villago Delenda Est
@Paul in KY: Something that is explicitly prohibited in the Constitution, I might add. Like religious tests for public office.
Paul in KY
@PurpleGirl: It is a good idea. Hope Glen Beck doesn’t steal it from me.
Paul in KY
@boatboy_srq: Have to factor in maintenance too. Chopping thru all that fat & gristle is going to cause the blade to dull out.
Belafon
@Brachiator: Pretty much everything Adam Smith warned us about the free market.
Paul in KY
@Gin & Tonic: Oh crap! Hope she had the key, that might give a hint as to where it would be.
benw
@boatboy_srq:
Also, 15,000 guillotines operating 24 hrs/day would each require 3 8-hour shifts (union rules, you know), meaning 45,000 new full time jobs over that 6 month time frame. It’s for trenchant analysis like this that I come to BJ.
Calouste
@Paul in KY: That’s why they hang onto job titles like “Governor”, “Senator” and “Ambassador” even when they are no longer employed in such capacity.
Schlemazel
@Paul in KY:
That was my answer to him also. There are faster,much more efficient ways.
gene108
@Villago Delenda Est:
The bar on religious tests from holding government jobs applied only to the Federal government, until the passage of the 14th Amendment.
Prior to that plenty of states had limitations on holding government offices, voting, etc. based on religion.
Though these were mostly phased out by the time of the Civil War.
Paul in KY
@Villago Delenda Est: Love my constitution! If Pres. Trump comes to power (God forbid) & things really go to shit, they might try to amend that clause out of it. Given that it would be a horrible situation for most all of us, would like to see how they tried to sell it to the commons.
Bobby Thomson
@benw: Glenn Hubbard is the Doug Feith of corporate finance.
Frankensteinbeck
@Derelict:
Much like poor wingnuts have made it plain that they will screw themselves over for the malicious glee of hurting minorities, rich wingnuts are less motivated by greed and more by the spiteful ego rush of stomping on the peasants. Did you hear Romney’s 47% speech? It wasn’t any kind of master planning. It was pure ‘fuck those lazy peasants’ hate.
Schlemazel
damn! Wish I had thought of that, it would have been perfect
Fair Economist
@PurpleGirl:
My favorite example on the is Mitt Romney. He is rich, rich, rich, >$100 million. Even with large Mormon families all his children and grandchildren could live their lives out in luxury without ever working a day.
BUT – the richest people in the US, like the Kochs and the Waltons, could buy what he owns as many times as he could buy what an ordinary American owns. They are phenomenally rich in comparison to somebody who himself is phenomenally rich. That’s how out-of-sight wealthy the folks trying to buy our government are.
boatboy_srq
@Paul in KY: @benw: Four to five shifts. Need to take weekends into account. So even more jobs created. And a good hosing-down between shifts should be sufficient maintenance: dull blades are a feature (“get to your guillotining early and save yourself the second/third stroke!”).
Calouste
@boatboy_srq: And we can all predict what’s going to happen if a Democrat (IOKIYAR) is going to run who doesn’t profess the right kind of religion. Clinton will see overt sexism, Sanders will see anti-Semitism.
Fair Economist
@Schlemazel:
What’s really scary about this rumor is that with conservatives it’s always about projection.
Bobby Thomson
@Villago Delenda Est: I’d rather not allow him to escape and then do everything he wanted me to do.
Schlemazel
@Paul in KY:
I always think of Duke and King for them. Referencing Huck Finn
Mike J
@Schlemazel:
Don;t they know that the reason so many on the left were upset about that dentist shooting a lion was that we had plans for the LA Colosseum?
@scav:
Damn you for being there first, and me for not reading all the comments.
Paul in KY
@boatboy_srq: Can see you’ve given this some thought. Maybe guillotines are the way to go. It is environmentally friendly & all that…
Brachiator
@Calouste:
Of course, King John was Anglo Norman. And the UK has just finished celebrating the anniversary of the Magna Carta. No one, anywhere, claimed that it created universal suffrage.
Even today, democracy is rare, fragile, distrusted. It’s almost surprising that it has lasted as long as it has.
Paul in KY
@Calouste: Good point, Calouste. Probably main reason those Ambassador jobs are so sought after.
Origuy
@PurpleGirl: Probably related to this:
Schlemazel
@Mike J:
That thought escaped me at the time. A word of advice for the planners though: there are no contemporary accounts of feeding Christians to lions. The Romans did try it with some criminals but from what I read dropped it as unsatisfying. Seems the animals, even when starved, did not really get into the spirit of the occasion. Turned out to be boring.
catclub
@benw: I did a google search on ‘Fema guillotines’.
what is seen cannot be unseen.
Archon
Machiavelli said a healthy dose of fear from plutocrats of the proles was essential for good government.
Forget fear of rebellion or revolution, the rich in America don’t even have political fear of the consequences of repeatedly pushing working people’s face in the dirt. In a functioning Republic Jeb Bush’s tax plan wouldn’t even be seriously contemplated, much less released to the public for consumption.
Mustang Bobby
It’s a dog-eat-dog world and we’re all wearing Milk Bone underwear.
scav
@Mike J: Ahh, but it’s so obvious once we’re in the know. Lions are from Kenya.
J R in WV
Maybe someone here will know the secret. Last week I ordered a new Acre Aspire from Newegg. As soon as it came in I loaded a Ubuntu 14.04 Live CD which worked fine. It came with Windows 8.1 and that new BIOS replacement UEFI or whatevers.
I had to go into the Boot to tell it to boot from the external DVD drive attached to the USB3 port. Then I told it to install Ubuntu right over everything, repartition the hard drive, etc. Seemed to work fine.
But then when I rebooted it w/o the Live CD in the mix, “No Bootable Drive Found” is all I get now. My research shows that I did everything recommended, except for shutting off Fast Boot, which first I ever heard of that mystery from MS.
Any suggestions? Can you kill fast boot from the Startup – which I should be able to get into, I have so far. Now I’m wishing I made the Windows Restore disks, installed Ubuntu beside Windows, etc… but water under the bridge.
I have done this dozens of times, enough to get overconfident, always with BIOS, not the new UEFI – darn, always something!
Thanks for any suggestions!
boatboy_srq
@Paul in KY: I’ve given far more thought to spoons – but guillotines will do in a pinch.
schrodinger's cat
Glenn Hubbard is a slippery eel. After this on-camera meltdown he would have gone into hiding if he had any shame.
lonesomerobot
instant big dog meme:
http://creativeconsult.us/images/bigdog.jpg
Germy Shoemangler
Jeffro
@Fair Economist:
I send this to people all the time – right, left, “independent” – and they never cease to be blown away (and perhaps a little bit changed) afterwards: Wealth and Inequality in America https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM
Related note: Robert Reich had a great FB post earlier today about how all big American corporations are essentially multinationals these days…and therefore most American billionaires as essentially multinational interests of their own as well. If it was clearer to most folks that billionaires are not only obscenely wealthy but much of that is actually foreign money…would we really let unlimited campaign and PAC donations flow into our political system (a la Citizens United)??
boatboy_srq
@J R in WV: Sounds like you overwrote the MBR. Ubuntu should have a util to recreate it (sorry, Windows guy here, can’t give you Linux equivalent).
Jeffro
@Germy Shoemangler:
That is fantastic.
Brachiator
@PurpleGirl:
How DO the rich become rich? How much money constitutes being rich?
The 1 percent begins with household income around $380,000. Is that rich?
What’s to understand? Are you suggesting that wealth be limited, by some magical committee, to just enough to make a person comfortable? How would this help everyone else?
FlipYrWhig
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:
To Big Media, “The Deficit” means “entitlements,” and they like to urge politicians to do something about “The Deficit” because they crave hard choices (that affect someone else): they think it’s so easy for politicians to give people what they already say they want, which makes them admire politicians who seek to take away things that people say they want. That’s why the best Democrats to them are the ones who want to make suffering people’s lives harder.
To Republicans, “The Deficit” means “money being wasted on black and brown people.” Tax cuts might increase the deficit, but they don’t increase “The Deficit.” This is how Republicans can constantly accuse Democrats of running up the deficit even when they haven’t.
I still don’t know how people think the deficit affects them or the economy. My hunch is that they think big deficit = bad economy because their personal experience of lean times involves having trouble paying bills, and they extend that to both the government and the nation as a whole.
Punchy
@benw: There’s a union for executioners? The Local 187? Teamsters 86’d?
Cervantes
@Brachiator:
Ask the single mom bringing up two kids on $35,000.
Jeffro
@Brachiator:
Of course it is…$200k/year puts you in the top 10%, that’s rich too.
Steeply progressive income tax rates (and similar ones on capital gains) would keep the 1%, and the .1%, from getting so unbelievably wealthy – just like they did between WWII and the 80s.
Josie
@Cervantes: How about the retired teacher living on $25,000?
Kay
Scott Walker update- down to 3%. The only enjoyable part of this cycle so far has been watching Walker and Christie lose- slowly and publicly.
chopper
@Mustang Bobby:
goddammit *I* was gonna make that Cheers reference.
Cervantes
@Kay:
It really is our fault for not recognizing their greatness.
Bobby Thomson
@Schlemazel: Christians were never sent to the Colosseum. That’s fanfic written by early Christian historians desperate to look gangsta.
Face
Says something for a college education and Slimfast, respectively.
boatboy_srq
@Brachiator:
The distinction is clearest in wealth, not income. Threshold 1%er income is significant, but a 1%er household pulling $400K annually into a house with minimal net worth is a lot poorer than a 1%er household puling $400K annually into a house with $100M net worth, etc etc. The biggest problem is that by targeting the “rich” or the “1%” we run the risk of hitting high-earning lower-net-worth households, who won’t be sympathetic because they’re not “rich” like the high-net-worth households they know regardless of the earning power of those higher net worth households.
There was a time when having the kind of wealth Purple Girl is trying to describe came with a recognition that there was a civic duty to do something socially beneficial with some of it (libraries, schools, universities, performance spaces, housing, even big donations to helpful charities). Modern-day “old money” admits no such obligation – beyond what will help their own small circle or narrow interests.
Jay C
@Schlemazel:
Y’know, they really shouldn’t worry much about this. Since it’s a government project, the likelihood is that they will have to spend at least 6-9 months shopping the bids around to various contractors – probably MIC – so that will be at least another 2-3 years of “development” time; probably extended somewhere along the line by the several months needed to appropriate the funds for the inevitable cost overruns.
The upshot being that sometime around 2021, the government will find themselves obligated to terminate the project by buying eight guillotines at an average cost of $375,000,000 apiece. At which time some Committee will determine the whole idea to have been a waste, and the guillotines will be packed off to that big warehouse and stacked next to the Ark of the Covenant.
So no worries.
Schlemazel
@Kay:
Walker is the Tim Pawlenty of this cycle. Midwest gov who fucked over his state doing the coke brothers bidding and padding around like a puppy dog hoping for a treat. It would make me very happy to watch them get dumped except I know how much damage they did and am living with the aftermath.
Schlemazel
@Bobby Thomson:
That was what I read also
Kay
@Cervantes:
I love how ego-driven and really dumb it was for them all to run. They could have kept their bullshit, trumped-up reputations intact if they had simply resisted the idea they were wildly popular and uniquely talented.
They can’t even go home! People will just hate them there, now, too.
Belafon
@Brachiator: I think the point is that if people understood how wealthy the truly wealthy actually were, they might realize that they don’t need any more tax breaks.
I’m not sure that’s true, but at least people wouldn’t be talking blind.
Schlemazel
@Jay C:
It’s awfully familiar cognitive dissonance. Just like how Obama is a weak incompetent idiot at the same time is a diabolical genius who’s undermining the entire country and turning us all in the communist Muslim pacifists
MomSense
@Fair Economist:
Some of the Maine wingnuts were opposed to widening and repairing route 1 because they are convinced the purpose is to facilitate mass transport of patriots to FEMA camps. Seriously.
Kay
@Schlemazel:
Oh, I disagree. Walker was supposed to be Reagan! He was the conservative savior who would end liberalism forever. Vanquished. Gone.
Jeffro
@Kay:
You forgot Perry.
The Post has been running articles on the lowest of the low pollers lately – they had one on how Gilmore hadn’t even held a single event yet, Graham is in the basement even in SC, a sad Pataki article, etc. I know in theory there are 17 candidates and a ‘top 10’ of sorts…but I think Big Media is about to do much of the GOPs work for it and narrow it down to Trump, Carson, Jeb!, Rubio, Cruz, Huck, Paul, and Fiorina in their reporting from here on out (and they may write off Paul and Huck soon, too).
Jeffro
@Belafon: I like Chris Rock’s take on what people would do if they truly understood how wealthy the wealthy are…
Edit: it’s “how rich the rich are”
boatboy_srq
@MomSense: Believable.
RaflW
@Derelict:
Indeed. I’ve been an investor since I was in high school (which was about when Reagan was first elected, so a while now…). Your friends are absolutely correct. Pulling $3.4T out of the government will have significant knock-on effects to the economy.
The rich (and I suppose I count in that grouping) will not do a whole lot more spending with the extra cash saved in taxes. But $3.4T cut from spending would be devastating to a number of job sectors.
Alternatively, $3.4T in new debt (the preferred GOP alternative, if history is a guide, and it often is) would I suppose enrich the already rich, as bond rates would probably have to go up to attract more buyers. Which means spiraling interest expenses for the government and thus …. more job & service cuts!
F*king brilliant, Jeb.
What may have been an appropriate measure in the age of Reagan (which I remember, see above) when high marginal tax rates probably were creating some disincentives, is not a particularly useful tool 34 years later.
But you don’t care about that. None of your ilk care about economic evidence. Frankly you don’t even care about a successful economy, which is sort of shocking. You just want the kleptocrats to have more in the short term. And to be grossly self-dealing. That too.
greennotGreen
I am from a family in the top 2%. I support a more progressive income tax and wouldn’t do away with the estate tax (although that’s where it will hurt the most.) Obamacare or an eventual national health service would ease concern about increased taxed, IMO. We have a member of the family with a serious health condition, so we want to make sure we have enough money to take care of him.
Many of the 0.1% who oppose increased taxes are just greedy, and you’ll never get them on board. As you move farther down the percentiles, even folks who are in the fairly low numbers may feel some insecurity. Assuring them (us) that we won’t fall into the abyss will help get more people supporting a fairer tax system that will restore a healthier balance between the richest and poorest Americans.
RSA
@Schlemazel:
I’m thinking of the most famous use of guillotines in politics, in France a couple of hundred years ago. You know, having those around might not be such a bad idea…
Face
All ya gotta do to kill Jeb!’s plan is to find a few wealthy niggras to loudly and proudly brag about how much money they’re saving under his plan, and how they plan on spending such savings on chronic and Afro Sheen and buying new houses in suburban Dallas and Salt Lake City.
Plan would be retracted within hours.
Schlemazel
@Kay:
Supposed to be Reagan
Actually the return of Tim Pawlenty the stupiding
Jeffro
@Schlemazel: I thought you were kidding..http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/guillotines.asp …guess not!
I’d say “who in their right mind could believe such a rumor?” but I believe that is called “begging the question”. Wow. So much fear, all the time with these folks.
catclub
@J R in WV: My daughter just had the same problem with Ubuntu on a laptop. UEFI
was the problem , I think, and Legacy EFI might have been the solution in the BIOS. I think once she got all the right parameters,
the install was there.
Good luck.
schrodinger's cat
Wealth should not be limited but if people understood how much richer someone like say Mitt Romney was than the average well off doctor or lawyer they would realize that the policies that benefit people like him are not necessarily the policies that would benefit someone who makes a living off their wages and not investments.
At this point, a full employment economy would benefit most workers even if there was a little inflation to contend with. Moneybags like Koch Brothers and Romney and his ilk do not want deficit spending because they are afraid of the effect it will have on their investments.
Schlemazel
@MomSense:
The neighborhood we lived in in Florida and septic systems. The numbers were afraid they would be forced to hook up to some sort of city sewer system. To the point where a developer was trying to open a new tract of land next to our neighborhood and the county was installing water pipes. The construction crew had to take all of their heavy equipment home every evening because the nutters would sneak out and sabotage the equipment if it was left out overnight because they were convinced that those little 8 inch water mains we’re actually sewer pipes
Paul in KY
@Cervantes: Fuck yes that is rich! What kind of stupid question was that?
schrodinger's cat
@MomSense: Coastal Route 1 through down east Maine?
JPL
@Josie: If only one had an education and worked hard… whoops..
I still remember Ann Romney moaning about how difficult it was when Mitt was in college and they had to sell stock to live. It was just awful for them.
WaterGirl
@Germy Shoemangler:
I am not a fan of Hillary Clinton at all, but that is one beautiful sentence and I hope she repeats it over and over and over.
Paul in KY
@Bobby Thomson: Didn’t Nero light them on fire to serve as torches for one of his big parties? Heard that when I was a kid.
Jeffro
OT but Kaisch tries to show his conservative cred by talking nonsense about Josh Earnest, Obama’s press secretary:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/john-kasich-shutdown-work
Riiiiiight…because this Congress hasn’t been dismissive (to say nothing of way over the line, time and time again), with this President…
Hey Kaisch, remember W’s press secretary Ari Fleischer telling not just Dems but all Americans, “Watch what you say”?
Schlemazel
@Jeffro:
Sadly, I don’t think there’s anything stupid enough that I could dream of that isn’t already out there in nut-O-sphere
catclub
@boatboy_srq: The wealth tax that Trump advocated in 1999 was interesting. Even a one time
wealth tax. That is the only way I see to get at the huge inequality. Income tax will never make a dent in it.
Schlemazel
@Paul in KY:
Is reputed to have done that with his political enemies. I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised if some Christians got swept up in that. On the other hand it was not aimed specifically at the religious cult. Most if not all of those sorts of stories we’re told later in an attempt to build the theme of persecution as a tool to bind and strengthen the community
boatboy_srq
@Jeffro: So much projection all the time with these volk. Nothing to do with fear; it’s the expectation that the Left wants to do to the Right exactly what the Right is actually planning for the Left.
boatboy_srq
@catclub: IIRC he’s made some noise about that (or something very like it) just recently.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlipYrWhig: Exactly, in Broderese, talking about the “deficit” and “spending problem/crisis” is how you bitch about your taxes while pretending you’re not bitching about your taxes, whether you’re as rich as Tom Brokaw or assume that you will be someday if you say (and think) all the right things. The only term more abused in our political discourse is “small business”. “Middle class” may be on that scale, at least on their side.
Cervantes
@Paul in KY:
Nero most likely died before the Colosseum was built.
Paul in KY
@Face: That is diabolical!
Peale
@MomSense: we wouldn’t have to widen the roads if our Patriots would just lay off the fast food like Michelle Obama has been trying to trick them to do.
boatboy_srq
@Peale: US 1 has a MAJOR pothole problem when you get past Boston. Wider is probably far less significant than smoother.
C.V. Danes
@Derelict: what an awesome slogan!
We gotta stay healthy if you wanna stay wealthy!
sukabi
@benw: no, for sanitary reasons, the CDC has mandated that each guillotine be used once. Don’t want the unnecessary spread of disease.
boatboy_srq
@MomSense: Just had a thought: shouldn’t they be just as concerned about improvements to port facilities in South Portland and Bath and to PNY? With the numbers they’re apparently convinced are involved, transport by water would probably be cheaper…
Elizabelle
We should keep a list of journalism outlets and journalists/blogs who cover the Jeb! tax cuts honestly. It may not be that long, but always good to be able to point others to journalism based on accuracy and accountability, rather than journalism that makes its corporate ownership apparent.
Cacti
Big tax cut for the rich, new Middle East wars.
So, how is Jeb different from his brother again?
schrodinger's cat
Thread needs kitteh! Friday kitteh has a planand it is diabolic
Paul in KY
@Schlemazel: Thanks for info!
Paul in KY
@Cervantes: Didn’t say the parties were at the Colosseum.
Paul in KY
@sukabi: Like the guillotine comes in a giant bag as ‘sterile’?
Paul in KY
@schrodinger’s cat: I think that kitteh has already secured some food supplies.
boatboy_srq
@Schlemazel: Humans: slow, uninteresting prey; unappetizing meals, even when fed a paleo diet. Neither thrill in the chase nor satisfaction in the dining.
/lion
boatboy_srq
@Paul in KY: I’m sure there’s some Big Pharma entity who could produce that.
benw
@boatboy_srq: @catclub: @Punchy: that’s it, I’m buying guillotine stock.
Jeffro
@Cacti:
Doesn’t he also have the exact same Iraq War neocon chicken hawks (like Wolfowitz) advising him?
I wonder if he has someone already in mind for FEMA – perhaps someone familiar with running dog shows, or a koi breeder?
Bobby Thomson
@Paul in KY: unlikely that Nero could have even found Christians in Rome, let alone noticed them. Gentile messianics were rare when Nero came to power.
Gene108
@Jeffro:
When the financial meltdown was going on and the backlash to TARP bailouts was building there were several articles written about how the wealthy Wall Street types did not see themselves as Americans, rather they saw themselves as some sort of World Citizen, since in their view it did not matter whether they lived in New York or London or anywhere else in the world; the business they conducted was not tied to them being in any particular country.
America benefited from them choosing to remain here, which they may choose not to do if their taxes went up or back then they did not get their bonuses.
The whole early Twentieth century notion that an estate tax was called for because without the security and infrastructure America provided great wealth could not be accumulated has been discarded by the super wealthy.
Ruckus
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:
You guys are always looking for the complex answer.
The serious people are idiots who keep mistaking that the D stands for deficit. How hard can this be, remove the D from the white house and you have no deficit.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Schlemazel:
Who even makes guillotines anymore? It’s not like you can walk down to Wal-Mart and pick up a couple.
I suspect someone was forwarded an Onion story.
Ruckus
@Paul in KY:
We have better steels today. Blade stay sharp for months. Besides why do you care if the blade is dull?
Elizabelle
@Jeffro: Dog shows or a koi breeder. You made me laugh.
Central Planning
@J R in WV: Have you seen this Ubuntu + UEFI link?
Frankensteinbeck
@boatboy_srq:
While at the same time way too dangerous to be worth targeting.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@Ruckus: That pretty much sums it up, I guess. Yes, the Dark Lord of the Sith said deficits don’t matter, but they do matter – just not when there’s a Republican in the White House. The worst part of JEB?’s plan (which as far as I can tell has received no media coverage whatsoever) is that he’s proposing to completely eliminate the estate tax. One can make a case about taxing earned income at lower rates but there’s absolutely no justification for taxing inheritance not at all.
RaflW
@Brachiator:
This is absolute hogwash by Jeb.. Mostly because I can imagine a country with incredibly low tax rates: the US! Our corporate tax rates after deductions is extremely low. We’ve all seen the items about GE basically paying no taxes, etc.
And the markets are awash in cash. There still isn’t enough demand for major new property, plant and equipment investing in the US. It’s a demand problem, not a cash flow/investment cash problem. What is infuriating is they know this. SO DO THE PEOPLE REPORTING THIS (or FFS they should (yes 2011 post, but still very valid in most sectors)).
But since actually analyzing what a candidate says is verboten, we get context-free lies, over and over again. So the GOP may just blow up the damn economy again. Sheesh.
Bill
@Schlemazel:
Where – exactly – would one place a guillotine order?
Paul in KY
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): French don’t make them, they don’t even have a word for guillotine…
Paul in KY
@Ruckus: Efficiency, Ruckus. Have a lot of RWNJs to execute & being that I would want government GS types doing it, they would have ‘crew rest’ and all that, so I need them to be able to chop a bunch during their 4 hour shifts.
Bill
@Cacti:
Per his interview on Colbert this week, he will cut spending more than little brother.
Paul in KY
@Bill: Glamazon, silly.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bill: guillotinesrus.com
RaflW
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:
But, but death tax! You want to tax dying!
Sorry. I absolutely agree with you. When my dad died, a portion of his estate was taxed. You know what? His long-time girlfriend is fine. I’m fine. My brother is fine. We have all we need and then some.
In fact, I am happy his estate got taxed. He used ROTC to go to (public) college and the G.I. bill to go to (private) grad school. It took almost 60 years, but the government’s return-on-investment was probably pretty decent even in raw dollar terms.
I find it interesting that there is a movement among folks younger than me who are seriously looking at ways of, in a manner of speaking, un-inheriting their wealth. Now, there are plenty of greedy s.o.b.s who would think that’s nuts, but Resource Generation is turning the whole IGMFU idea of no inheritance tax on it’s ear.
boatboy_srq
@Gene108: I’m sure that if those taxes were assessed again those same uberwealthy would be perfectly happy taking their billions to somewhere more accommodating like Belize or Guatemala.
Ruckus
@Schlemazel:
They wanted to keep their shit on their property? Like buried under ground in their back yards like they imagine gold is? They did know that shit is brown and stinks and gold isn’t and doesn’t, didn’t they?
I’m not actually shocked at this, just amazed that there are people this stupid whose brain can remember to breath.
Cervantes
@Bill:
LIfe-sized ones from the old days are auctioned off occasionally, usually in France. You can also get them on line — though these are usually (but not necessarily) smaller than life-sized.
(You asked.)
Jeffro
@Elizabelle: It’s a little more inside baseball than usual, but I think I did a Heckuva Job there.
Schlemazel
@Ruckus:
One of the supposed benefits of a guillotine was that the way it was built even the dull blade did a better job than the old ex man used to do. In the old days the executioner would visit you in your cell the day before the execution and if you didn’t have a ride or if your bride was not big enough you got stuck at the end of the line when you act was very dull and it might take several strokes to get your head off. Given that is my alternative I guess I’d choose a guillotine
divF
@Cervantes:
My high school freshman history teacher used to bring out a model of a guillotine every year when he was covering the French Revolution, complete with an action figure-sized member of the aristocracy to behead. It was viewed as one of the high points of the course.
Another Holocene Human
@Calouste: One shocker to me that I only learned recently is that not only was the issue of the poor representation by the House of Commons* not settled in England after the American Revolution (where we set up uniform representation in our lower house, however imperfect), but that so many people died over that issue until reform finally occurred in the 19th century.
*-think gerrymandering on steroids, some “rotten boroughs” with basically nobody living in them and some big cities with no rep at all
Ruckus
@Bill:
Well you could go with the startup companies listed above this answer but in my mind the easy place to go to get a killing machine would be the MIC. Budgets approved, designs made/approved, contracts awarded, first articles in 4 months. Production to began in earnest in 5-6 months, delivery starting in 8-10 months.
Cervantes
@Bobby Thomson:
Nero was known to persecute Christians by edict — in Rome and outside the city. For a mention of this, see The Twelve Caesars by Suetonius (6 Nero at 16).
Schlemazel
@Bill:
I get mine from the local guillotines-Я-us
Schlemazel
@Ruckus:
Not so much that they were interested in owning their own shit it was just they didn’t want to have to pay to use of public sewer.
Cervantes
@divF:
Here’s to good teachers!
boatboy_srq
@Schlemazel: @Ruckus: Septic systems are one more of those Liberteees™ the Reichwing values so much. I think it has something to do with not being flooded with sh!t when your neighbor’s teenage daughter flushes a dozen tampons and the (positive) pregnancy kit she doesn’t want Dad to know about. It could also be related to being your own sovereign citizen and not one of those Soshulist city people dependent on Public Services™, since septic tanks are reasonably low-maintenance and have no monthly service fees. FL being flat doesn’t help much; and FL has a less-than-stellar track record for public utilities, so the discomfort isn’t entirely unwarranted.
Related: Mum’s place was hanging off a 50 y/o well, which went completely salt (huge development just sucked all the fresh water out and the Gulf seeped right in). She’d already put in an RO unit which could handle everything but the salt. Three choices: 1) $10k for a new well dug (crapshoot whether we’d hit water or not); 2) $20K for a desal plant; 3) deal with the salt until municipal water came through (forecast at 6 months – but a rolling 6 months for the previous 10 years plus). We moved her into an ALF instead.
Paul in KY
@Ruckus: Cost of $7,934,028 per unit.
Cervantes
@Paul in KY:
My mistake, sorry.
Ruckus
@Schlemazel:
Sort of my point.
It’s an efficient killing machine if reasonably designed. The weight is what does it, at the end of a long day of swinging an axe, strength comes into play as well as the sharpness of the tool, while the guillotine always weighs the same. Using today’s mfg capabilities and materials a much better project could be built than the French had.
Cervantes
@Ruckus:
Are you sure you’re not just a little too enthusiastic about the possibility?
Paul in KY
@boatboy_srq: Generally, when you get sewer put into an existing neighborhood, you have to pay a few thousand for the work/material/getting connected, etc.
These tightwads didn’t want to spend the money that everyone else in that boat has had to pay.
Ruckus
@Paul in KY:
And what is the cost benefit ratio? Looks good to me.
Or even more snide, What’s your point?
Paul in KY
@Cervantes: No worries. I mis-read stuff all the time :-)
Cervantes
@Paul in KY:
The last one I saw at auction fetched the equivalent of about $80,000.
Paul in KY
@Ruckus: Just a hoary joke about how everything is so expensive when done by a defense company.
Like the $655 bolt.
Ruckus
@Cervantes:
Just knowledgeable about modern mfg.
Besides it is an elegant answer to the question, How do you improve upon a working system that is not quite good enough, especially if the need for capacity ramps up?
Paul in KY
@Cervantes: Must have been an interesting auction. Bet they had other unusual stuff at that one.
Schlemazel
@Ruckus:
I’d recommend titanium for the blade it will hold an edge a lot longer
boatboy_srq
@Paul in KY: No doubt. Because you know that those fees would only go to help Those People living in their
hovelshomes, and do that just for the privilege ofhaving Those People’s sh!t back up into your housesanitation.Another Holocene Human
@Brachiator:
No, that’s the point. There is a large faction agitating against universal suffrage (which we still don’t really have) and who think that British politics prior to, oh, let me take a stab and say Benjamin Disraeli, is some sort of golden age and model for liberty.*
What’s even funnier is the fact that petty bourgeois people are the ones making this argument, the same ones who weren’t shit back in 1215.
*-the other thing going on here is Anglophile denial that French thought heavily influenced the Framers, as well as the last two hundred years of British fuckups, as well as their local nonfriends the Iriquois Confederacy, whose organizational structure is still roughly copied by most American civic and religious organizations today–excepting the Catholic Church, obviously, which is still on the feudal system–as well as the work of dissidents like Paine, who was persona non grata in Georgian Britain. So. Basically self-fapping bullshit for people like Romney who see themselves as the blue blooded British Israelite descendants of Norman conquerers and don’t worry if that sounds contradictory, they don’t.
Jado
@Paul in KY:
They’re junkies – they KNOW they are being lied to, but the euphoria from that sweet, sweet rage is too much to resist. They gotta chase that RWNJ dragon.
Ruckus
@Paul in KY:
Why I put the snide part in there.
I’ve done work in the MIC complex and there are some legit reasons for some of the costs over and above commercial costs. On the other hand there are also costs that are added, just because they can be.
That $655 bolt is not the same as one you buy at the hardware store. Different, much more costly material, much closer tolerances, far fewer made, mfg time much longer than an everyday bolt. On the B1 a critical hydraulic valve was originally made of aluminum to save weight. But it cracked and at least one or some planes crashed. It was replaced with a stainless steel valve, with mfg costs about tripled. Cheap when all things considered but not cheap at all from an individual cost comparison. Probably went from about $3000/ valve to around $10-12K.
Ruckus
@Schlemazel:
Too light. Carbide, or carbide tipped, most likely. Stays much sharper, is much harder and cost is not all that much different.
But there are tool steels that would be even better. Not as hard as carbide but much tougher and cheaper.
Another Holocene Human
@Bobby Thomson:
Well, when I took a course on the art history of the Vatican it turns out, funny story, that there is a necropolis built on a circus (not the circus by the Colosseum, which is still extant) and over the centuries the old claim that Peter was buried in the circus necropolis on the Vatican turned into “Peter was martyred in the Circus [of Caligula and Nero].” (It was Nero’s aunt Agrippina’s land or something like that.)
There’s a fantastic legend of the martyrdom of 10,000 virgins in Germany and as near as anyone can figure out, some monk misread an earlier source that was talking about just one.
When George fought the dragon … well, it turns out English knights didn’t know Greek. George is a Greek Orthodox bishop who was depicted with a dragon that symbolized heresy. Much, much later English people recast English Knight George as slaying the Dragon of Popery so it regained its symbolic nature, just inverted.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@boatboy_srq:
And then they’ll bitch and moan when they discover that the US does not look kindly on people who give up their citizenship and then want a visa to move back here on a semi-permanent basis.
boatboy_srq
@Ruckus: Ooh! Ooh! Added plus: domestic sourcing would give the US steel industry a boost. Requires zero imported materials, but that’s pretty easily satisfied.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Cervantes:
The “old days” aren’t as old as you’d think — the last execution by guillotine in France happened in 1977. (Capital punishment was banned in 1982.)
Another Holocene Human
@greennotGreen:
I completely agree, and healthcare is one of the biggest sore points.
If there’s a safety net, then why should I worry about paying more taxes? Unless I’m a stupid jerk. You’ll never convince the stupid jerks, so forget about them.
Paul in KY
@boatboy_srq: I think we’re on to something here, boys!
Another Holocene Human
@Paul in KY: The way I heard it, Nero blamed the fire on Christians to attempt to divert attention from himself. It burned up Palatine hill where all the blue bloods lived and when Nero took the opportunity to grab more land and build himself a biggerer palace, they were furious.
Edit: sorry, if unclear: at this point the conspiracy theory that Nero set the fire himself was born
I don’t know if there’s really any historical basis to him publicly executing Christians, though.
Cervantes
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
I was referring to the ones I’ve seen at auction — and those were from the 18th and 19th centuries.
Another Holocene Human
@Bobby Thomson:
I visited Ostia Antiqua. There is a big, I mean huge compared to other buildings in the area, public temple to Mater Matuta. Then there’s a small Jewish synagogue with a nicely carved menorah decoration, quite unassuming from the outside. Then there is a private home they think was a Christian gathering place. Very covert.
I believe there was a Mithraeum. Semi-public and quite a bit larger. (Retired Roman soldiers had pension to pay for such stuff. London has a very impressive Mithraeum.)
rikyrah
they only ‘sucker’ the media because Jeb speaks in FRANK LUNTZ-APPROVED LANGUAGE.
I don’t know how many times I have to say this….
But, that’s the problem they have with Trump.
Jeb’s financial plan is everything his brother did, PLUS
Privatizing Social Security and Medicare.
But, because he’s a supposed ‘ Grown Up’, the Villagers don’t tell THE TRUTH about what he wants to do.
Paul in KY
@Another Holocene Human: Palace he built was something else. Trump would have thought it over-the-top & too big.
J R in WV
@Central Planning:
thanks, will check that out!