Faith Unmoving

After seven, eight years of this purposeful ignorance Republican voters have about President Obama’s faith, I have to say that it’s just getting stupidly tiresome.

A majority of Republican voters, 54 percent, think that President Obama is a Muslim, according to a new survey from the left-leaning Public Policy Polling (PPP).

Asked whether they thought Obama is a Christian or Muslim or if they were unsure, 32 percent said they were unsure. Fourteen percent said he was a Christian.

Many right-leaning voters have been deeply skeptical about Obama’s faith since before he became president.

The topic arose again prominently in 2012, when Obama faced former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, a devout Mormon, in the general election.

Obama rarely invokes his own faith in speeches and public appearances, though has remarked about his Christian faith during comments for holidays such as Easter.

Only 29% of Republicans believe the President was born in the US too, so can we just finally admit all this is code word, dog whistle, Southern Strategy racism already and that Republicans have done nothing to even address the problem?

When only one in seven Republicans can correctly identify President Obama as a Christian after seven years as President, the other six Republicans are doing it on purpose.  I’m sorry that you’re either too stupid or too racist to accept the truth about the guy, and at this point I know that tens of millions of Americans will insist that he was a Dirty Kenyan Mooslim Terr’ist polluting white evangelical Christian bodily fluids with his caliphate/witch doctor powers right up until their deathbeds.

And while I don’t know what PPP’s numbers for Democrats are in this particular poll, given the past history of that figure it’s not that much less of an awful one.

It shouldn’t bother me that America is still filled with racist trash given the history of this country from day one, but yeah, it does, and that’s not changing in my lifetime.

189 replies
  1. 1
    Belafon says:

    It shouldn’t bother me that America is still filled with racist trash given the history of this country from day one, but yeah, it does, and that’s not changing in my lifetime.

    It’s OK that it bothers you. It bothers the hell out of me. There are lots of things I’d like to cure, and human stupidity is one of them.

  2. 2
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    I for one don’t care what his religion is. For that matter, I don’t care what anyone’s religion is. I only care what their preferred policies are.

  3. 3
    shell says:

    I see Trump has come out with the bold statement that he will reinstate the mountains name as Mt. McKinley.

    Obama, please please please…when are you going to formally make the decree that you endorse breathing and drinking enough water? Oh, and NOT jumping off cliffs

  4. 4
    Ruckus says:

    It shouldn’t bother me that America is still filled with racist trash given the history of this country from day one, but yeah, it does, and that’s not changing in my lifetime.

    Was just thinking along these same lines. What is it about humans that many are so insecure in their own lives that they have to make up faults in others, to make themselves feel, hell it can’t be to feel better, maybe more worthy? Worthy of what I have no idea.

  5. 5
    Aardvark Cheeselog says:

    In other news of religious intransigence. Kentucky Clerk Denies Gay Couples Marriage Licenses, Defying Court.

  6. 6
    EZSmirkzz says:

    Keep in mind that people lie to pollsters, and the fact that POGs like to say things to piss liberals off. The petulant child syndrome which has led to so many rich kid derangement shootings, which none of them will take responsibility for because something something.

  7. 7
    Rommie says:

    Remember back in 2008 when people would say Obama would drive the other side crazy? He did and they are – looking into the Wingularity has passed crazy-ha-ha into crazy-coo-coo-scary. We’re running out of implausible headlines.

  8. 8
    Cermet says:

    It shouldn’t bother me that America is still filled with racist trash and mostly religious Taliban given the history of this country from day one, but yeah, it does, and that’s not changing in my lifetime.

    Corrected for real amerika home of the 70%+ who believe in such nonsense as a deity

  9. 9
    MattF says:

    I suppose there’s a piss-off-the-libruls element. And I suppose that supersedes the “I guess I must be a racist asshole” element. Shrug.

  10. 10
    Kryptik says:

    It shouldn’t bother me that America is still filled with racist trash given the history of this country from day one, but yeah, it does, and that’s not changing in my lifetime.

    I’d say it should bother you, and not just how filled with racist trash the country is, but just how accepted and re-mainstreamed that blatant racism is becoming. The more this shit show goes on, the more I fear to my bones that this country really is just so fucking incurably racist that it really will eventually take over again and work on destroying all us ‘impurities’. I don’t take Trump as a joke anymore. Regardless of whether he becomes nominee eventually or not, he is a symptom of an American sickness reasserting itself, and I’m terrified that it’ll reassert itself to total fucking government control and screw over anyone who isn’t a straight white Christian at this rate.

    It’s fucking everywhere and getting worse it feels like, and the per usual, it feels like there’s never any “conversion” leftward, compared to how many people surge to become even more and more rightward. Feminism and civil rights activism are being treated in the mainstream as the worst sort of fascism in the history of ever, and it feels like common and popular responses are just echoing that. We’re fucking losing the battle for the soul of this country if we haven’t already lost at this rate.

    EDIT: About the only bright spot I can see these days is the advancement for gay rights all over the place, and that’s heartening, but at the same time doesn’t make up for the massive backsliding we seem to be suffering everywhere fucking else.

  11. 11
    Paul in KY says:

    @shell: You know he really, really wants to rename it as Mt. Trump.

  12. 12
    What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us? says:

    I think the fact that only 29% believe he was born here is more damning. I mean, someone can lie about his faith, and in fact faith is mutable. People convert to new faiths, well, not all the time, but it happens not infrequently. But, the dude was born where he was born. That’s a straight out fact that more than two thirds of Republican voters just refuse to accept. It’s pretty ridiculous and in a sane world maybe the DC press corpse would focus on why the average Republican voter is so out of touch with reality. Instead, they’re treated like serious people with legitimate opinions.

  13. 13
    Paul in KY says:

    @Aardvark Cheeselog: Man, is that woman a smug, narcissist. That’s what she is. Her personal interpretation of what the job entails is more correct & superior to what has been adjudicated years and years ago by the courts.

    I’ll tell you, those couples going in there & being refused by her & her minions time & time again are sooooo much nicer than Paul in KY would be.

  14. 14
    bystander says:

    Another example of how repeating the same lies over and over works with those susceptible to the message. The continuing assault on HRC and calling Sanders a socialist at every opportunity, all aided and abetted by our liberal media, may be having the same effect, and we should all be concerned.

  15. 15
  16. 16
    Paul in KY says:

    @MattF: It’s a twofer. Piss off liberals & re-enforce their own racism.

  17. 17
    Amir Khalid says:

    A majority of Republican voters, 54 percent, think that President Obama is a Muslim, according to a new survey from the left-leaning Public Policy Polling (PPP).

    This majority doesn’t think Obama is Muslim. They know that he is The Other, an outsider who has infiltrated. The particular Other-ness may change with the circumstances — Jewish in one era, Catholic in another, person of colour, a certain national origin, whatever — but it’s always only a detail.

  18. 18
    PIGL says:

    @Belafon:
    It’s not stupid that needs curing. It’s vicious dickishness. And there’s only the one cure for that.

  19. 19
    Eric S. says:

    @Aardvark Cheeselog: I know we don’t want to make her martyr and all, but fuck it, throw the whole fucking book at her. Contempt of court for sure. CaN DOJ go after her for civil rights violations? Let’s do that to.

  20. 20
    beltane says:

    @PIGL: What’s the cure for that? Every wingnut I know has a terminal case of Scumbag Syndrome. I didn’t realize a cure was available.

  21. 21
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Aardvark Cheeselog: fuckin’ jail her already, Bunning. She’s eating your lunch.

    But then, no one ever enforced the law against Clive Bundy, either. Gee, I wonder why these pricks walk around with such a sense of entitlement.

  22. 22
    Ryan says:

    Best evidence yet that, IMHO, it was Nixon who was the founder of today’s GOP

  23. 23
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @bystander: Sanders is a socialist.

  24. 24
    satby says:

    @Aardvark Cheeselog: The next article I read about that bitch better say she’s spending time thinking about her faith in jail for contempt.

  25. 25
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Eric S.: we shouldn’t allow the anticipated reaction of crazy people to dictate public policy. Tim McVeigh’s a martyr in the classic sense and I’ve never lost any sleep over that.

  26. 26
    Cervantes says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Person of golor?

    In the military: Person Other than Grunt.

  27. 27
    Patrick says:

    A majority of Republican voters, 54 percent, think that President Obama is a Muslim, according to a new survey from the left-leaning Public Policy Polling (PPP). Asked whether they thought Obama is a Christian or Muslim or if they were unsure, 32 percent said they were unsure. Fourteen percent said he was a Christian.

    They can believe whatever they want, facts be damned. Hell, I don’t think any of today’s Republicans are Christians considering most of their beliefs contradicts the bible.

  28. 28
    beltane says:

    @satby: If Thomas More was willing to give up his head over a conflict between faith and public duty, this nasty hypocrite should be willing to step down from her job.

  29. 29
    Bloix says:

    “Obama rarely invokes his own faith in speeches and public appearances”

    So no one at The Hill bothered to watch his speech in Selma in March or his eulogy for Clementa Pinckney in June.

  30. 30
    benw says:

    @Rommie: Back in 2008, Republicans firmly believed that the reverend minister of Obama’s Christian church was a scary, radical, hate-preaching, America-hating black man AND that Obama was a Kenyan Muslim, simultaneously. Interestingly, only the Kenyan Muslim part has stuck.

  31. 31
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: Even worse is that a significantly higher percentage believe that Cruz was born in the US than that Obama was.

  32. 32
    boatboy_srq says:

    @Aardvark Cheeselog: I’m really looking forward to Ms. Davis walking into someplace that doesn’t serve (any one of the following) Xtians, bigots or heterosexuals and seeing the footage from THAT event.

  33. 33
    Paul in KY says:

    @beltane: If she had any couth, she would. However, there’s $80,000 reasons that say she will hang on as long as she can. I marginally like the other clerk in Casey County, who is also refusing to do his job. At least he was honest about not resigning, saying he needed the job & had a mortgage.

    She just lies about how she wouldn’t want to ‘burden’ her deputy clerks.

  34. 34
    Mike in NC says:

    Maybe on the plus side, wingnuts seem to have become very defensive about their virulent racism, since the government isn’t there to provide cover any longer.

  35. 35
    EZSmirkzz says:

    @schrodinger’s cat: Ass backwards GOPs.

  36. 36
    beltane says:

    @boatboy_srq: Ms. Davis has been divorced a few times. Until recently, there would have been a great many places that would refuse to serve her.

    Jesus spoke a lot about divorce. He had nothing to say about homosexuality.

  37. 37
    Cervantes says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Two sides of the same coin, I think.

  38. 38
    Cervantes says:

    @beltane:

    You’re very generous to compare her to Thomas More.

  39. 39
    Patrick says:

    @shell:

    I see Trump has come out with the bold statement that he will reinstate the mountains name as Mt. McKinley.

    Interesting article in the Wall Street Journal (of all places) this morning about this issue. When the mountain was named after McKinley, he wasn’t even President at the time. He was just a Republican front runner. Furthermore, when the mountain was named after McKinley, he had not ever been in Alaska at the time.

    It just boggles the mind that of all the things to name this mountain is after an average citizen who had absolutely nothing to do with the mountain. Hell, Hillary Clinton is a Democratic front runner. Naming it after her makes as much sense as McKinley.

  40. 40
    dedc79 says:

    Some strong data points for those who argue that there is no such thing as progress.

  41. 41
    beltane says:

    @Paul in KY: Getting paid $80,000 a year to not do a job sounds like a really sweet form of welfare, one that’s only available to white bigots. Too bad she’s nowhere near good looking enough to land a gig on Fox or she could really be raking it in.

  42. 42
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Patrick: he had not ever been in Alaska at the time.

    And was never there after that point either.

  43. 43
    beltane says:

    @Cervantes: We live in an age of cheap knockoffs.

  44. 44
    dedc79 says:

    @beltane:

    If Thomas More was willing to give up his head over a conflict between faith and public duty, this nasty hypocrite should be willing to step down from her job.

    I’m probably all jumbled as to what actually happened to More because of the Mantel Books and A Man for All Seasons, but wasn’t the issue there that he had retreated from his “public duty” but they were still demanding his blessing anyway? Hadn’t he already resigned from his post in the government?

  45. 45
    beltane says:

    Oh great. The current husband of Kim Davis is threatening to use 2nd Amendment remedies against marriage equality supporters: http://www.dailykos.com/story/.....supporters

  46. 46
    Mike J says:

    The bible forbids charging interest. I wonder if the good christian clerk will file deeds for banks.

  47. 47
    Paul in KY says:

    @beltane: I think she’ll hit the wingnut speech circuit after this is all played out.

  48. 48
    SenyorDave says:

    Yet a sizeable percentage of these same devout “Christians” support Trump, who, based on his actions, does not appear to be remotely Christian, or even have any morals at all (in his defense, he rarely pretends to be a Christian).

  49. 49
    beltane says:

    @dedc79: Yes, but Henry VIII, in classic overreaching style, had also issued a demand that all subjects take an oath declaring him to be the Supreme Head of the Church of England. Thomas More would not do this.

  50. 50
    Cervantes says:

    @Patrick:

    When the mountain was named after McKinley, he wasn’t even President at the time. He was just a Republican front runner. Furthermore, when the mountain was named after McKinley, he had not ever been in Alaska at the time.

    He never did visit Alaska, ever — never mind the mountain.

  51. 51
    beltane says:

    @Paul in KY: She’ll still need some kind of do-over ala Michelle Dugar. As it is now, she is way too frumpy for wingnut tastes.

  52. 52
    mellowjohn says:

    @Bobby Thomson:
    yeah, so i’ve heard.

    even more amazing that only 29% of Rs believing that the Prez was born in America is that the same survey showed that 40% believe that Raphael Edwardo Cruz was born here.

  53. 53
    Cervantes says:

    @beltane:

    @Cervantes: We live in an age of cheap knockoffs.

    I won’t take that personally.

  54. 54

    @MattF:

    I suppose there’s a piss-off-the-libruls element.

    Yeah, and there’s nothing at all racist about their constant need to piss off the liberals.

  55. 55

    You’re not a real true Christian unless you’re discriminating against gays, trying to shut down abortion clinics, dropping Jesus’ name on a regular basis, hate the Muslims, and wear an American flag somewhere on your body.

    Liberals therefore can’t be real true Christians, even if they believe in Jesus, attend church, care for the poor, and try to love others as they love themselves.

  56. 56
    boatboy_srq says:

    @Patrick:

    I don’t think any of today’s Republicans are Christians considering most of their beliefs contradicts the bible.

    One more reason to refer to them as Xtian (or, as Sully says, Christianist). Because they’re not.

  57. 57
    EconWatcher says:

    This may be just agreeing with Zandar’s dog-whistle comment, but you’ll probably get a majority of GOPers to agree to any factual description they perceive as negative for Obama. I think they translate these survey questions just to mean, do you hate Obama and the sinister ways he has subverted everything decent in this country?

    So, Muslim? Hell, yeah. Born outside this country? You bet. Intentional spreader of chlamydia? Absolutely.

    It’s venting, and it gives them the thrill of transgressing PC. I think the number who actually, really doubt he was born in the US is probably tiny.

  58. 58
    Belafon says:

    @beltane: A cop needs to stand up and talk about how the second amendment is not a solution to the first.

  59. 59
    Thoughtful David says:

    @What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:
    This is what is destroying our republic. The fucking news media never will call out this insanity. They go with “well, some people say he was born in Kenya, while others say he was born in Hawaii” kind of both-sides bullshit. THERE ARE NO FUCKING “BOTH SIDES” TO THIS STORY. There’s only reality vs. batshit insanity and racism. And yet the mainstream media cannot find it in themselves to say this anywhere.
    Another example is the Denali thing. The headlines today should all be saying “Former powerful Republican Representative goes insane accusing President of treason” and the story should be about how Ralph Regula is a fucking idiot who hasn’t a goddamned clue what he’s talking about and how what he’s saying and should be considered for involuntary admission.
    Won’t happen, though.

  60. 60
    Paul in KY says:

    @beltane: Need to lose some weight, I agree. However, she has that particular hairstyle that the super-fundy women all wear. Would think she’ll be speaking at churches, trying to fleece them out of a collection, etc.

  61. 61

    @Bobby Thomson:

    fuckin’ jail her already, Bunning. She’s eating your lunch.

    Give him a chance. These things are not instantaneous. The Supreme Court denial only came through yesterday, and her statement only came through today. My guess is that he’ll start fining her as soon as he gets a chance to write an order, and jail time will only come if the fines refuse to move her.

  62. 62
    Yatsuno says:

    @Mike J: Tax lines are also filed there. Wonder if she will ignore those orders too.

  63. 63
    Paul in KY says:

    @Comrade Dread: They’re like ‘Commie-Christians’. The worst kind.

  64. 64
    Yatsuno says:

    @Yatsuno: Edit not working on mobile.

    LIENS. Stop thinking for me phone!!

  65. 65
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @beltane: what’s his remedy for assault charges and a 1983 lawsuit?

  66. 66
    boatboy_srq says:

    @beltane: Unsurprising to say the least. To the Reichwingnuts the only good f#gg0t is a dead f#gg0t.

  67. 67
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Yatsuno: not to mention the rampant apostrophe abuse with phone spell check.

  68. 68
    bystander says:

    @Bobby Thomson: I believe the rubric is “democratic socialist” but that’s neither here nor there. When Andrea Mitchell starts routinely referring to Israel as “socialist nation of Israel” I’ll cease to be bothered by the dog whistling.

  69. 69
    gnomedad says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    This majority doesn’t think Obama is Muslim. They know that he is The Other, an outsider who has infiltrated.

    For many, nothing is too absurd to believe about Obama, as long as it’s something bad. It doesn’t even have to be consistent. He’s a Muslim and a gay atheist! He’s stupid and cunning! Etc., etc. …

    You can hate him all you want, but if you think Obama is stupid, it’s an airtight case that you have no clue. But “stupid” is also something bad, so they can’t give it up.

  70. 70
    ms_canadada says:

    @Paul in KY: Or rake in the $$$ from a Go Fund Me.
    That seems to be the M.O. of these bigots.

  71. 71
    Cervantes says:

    @Thoughtful David:

    Another example is the Denali thing.

    Possibly my favorite aspect is the Ohio Congressman who complained that the Administration made this change without consulting or even notifying McKinley’s descendants — of whom, unbeknownst to him, there are exactly zero alive.

    “Clearly,” said the bright boy, “this is a president who is not concerned with the deliberative process.”

  72. 72
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Patrick:

    Hell, Hillary Clinton is a Democratic front runner. Naming it after her makes as much sense as McKinley.

    Named just about a week ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Montes

    (well, after Edmund Hillary)

  73. 73
    The Republic of Stupidity says:

    and that Republicans have done nothing to even address the problem?

    Problem?

    It’s not a problem… it’s a feature… it’s one of their biggest strengths…

  74. 74
    Matt McIrvin says:

    Much of what’s going on here is that many people answer these poll questions by thinking, “what is the answer that people on my side are supposed to give?” and then they say that. What they mean is “I hate Obama.” If they think it sounds anti-Obama to say he’s a Muslim and was born in Kenya, that’s what they’ll say.

  75. 75
    Joel says:

    @EZSmirkzz: The only polls that matter are candidate preference polls. Everything else is garbage.

  76. 76
    Paul in KY says:

    @ms_canadada: That’ll probably happen too. Also.

  77. 77
    dedc79 says:

    Many of the same Republicans who once screamed that Bill Clinton was the worst president of all time (and a murderer, to boot) now acknowledge that he was actually a pretty decent President. The shift began basically the moment he was out of office.

    I expect something similar to happen with Obama, although the racial animus probably means that a larger percentage of republicans will never stop despising him, as compared to Clinton.

  78. 78
    Chris says:

    And yes, 20+ years ago predictions of Social Security’s demise was a thing.

    For once, Colin Powell got this exactly right back in 2008.

    I’m also troubled by, not what Senator McCain says, but what members of the party say. And it is permitted to be said such things as, “Well, you know that Mr. Obama is a Muslim.” Well, the correct answer is, he is not a Muslim, he’s a Christian. He’s always been a Christian. But the really right answer is, what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer’s no, that’s not America. Is there something wrong with some seven-year-old Muslim-American kid believing that he or she could be president? Yet, I have heard senior members of my own party drop the suggestion, “He’s a Muslim and he might be associated terrorists.” This is not the way we should be doing it in America.

  79. 79
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @bystander: it’s not a dog whistle to use the same label that Sanders proudly applies to himself and uses for his own marketing purposes.

  80. 80
    Brachiator says:

    Only 29% of Republicans believe the President was born in the US too, so can we just finally admit all this is code word, dog whistle, Southern Strategy racism already and that Republicans have done nothing to even address the problem?

    What is this weird continuing obsession with supposed dog whistles and Southern Strategy racism?

    The racism and fear has been blatant and increasing since Obama’s nomination. It’s source is as deep as the founding of the United States and its legacy of slavery. Republican whites cling to the fairy tale of Obama being a Muslim because they cannot accept his legitimacy and cannot abide the idea of being led by a black man.

    This isn’t about politics. It’s about psychology.

  81. 81
    beltane says:

    @dedc79: I’ve yet to hear a bona fide wingnut say anything remotely positive about Bill Clinton. Ten years ago, right after Hurricane Katrina hit, I remember being at the Toyota dealership purchasing my Sienna, having to listen to the finance guy’s unhinged diatribe about how Bill Clinton had ruined this country and was the worst president ever. Maybe his whiteness works in his favor now, but the Republicans still hate him just like they still hate Jimmy Carter. They do hate very well.

  82. 82
    MattF says:

    @dedc79: A liar, murderer, a drug addict, married a lesbian-drug-addict-murderer…

    I think it’s incorrect to say that their opinions have changed. He’s no longer President, so they don’t really need to bother any more.

  83. 83
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @beltane: I recall hearing some complaining about the terrible thing Bill Clinton did to betray us to China, and I couldn’t even figure out what specifically it was, but there is apparently some betrayal-to-China thing Clinton did that wingnuts all know about and nod their heads when they hear it spoken of.

  84. 84
    scav says:

    @Patrick: Add the detail that Mr Naming Prospector was excited about Candidate McKinley because of their shared enthusiasm for the Gold Standard — so there’s a solid new screaming demographic (of the usual suspects) to bring into the fray.

    Didn’t know whining in Ohio was of such long duration — they’ve been trying to do a Congressional end-run around the usual BGN process for decades. Special little snowflakes. USGS.

  85. 85
    Snarki, child of Loki says:

    Heh! Just wait till Inaugeration Day, Jan 2016, when Obama declares:

    “Call me Hussein! And yes, I really am Muslim, and was born in Kenya!”

    And then greets the new Prez. Hillary with a fist-bump.

  86. 86
    rikyrah says:

    Scott Walker Campaign Says He’s Not Advocating For A Border Wall With Canada
    He just said it was “a legitimate issue” to consider.

    After critics mocked Republican presidential candidate and Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker for saying a wall between the U.S. and Canada was a “legitimate” idea, his campaign said Monday that he is not pushing for such a policy.

    “Despite the attempts of some to put words in his mouth, Gov. Walker wasn’t advocating for a wall along our northern border,” Walker spokeswoman AshLee Strong said in a statement.

    The controversy followed the typical politician walk-back formula: a quick uproar over his comments to a reporter — in this case, made Sunday during NBC’s “Meet the Press” — followed by parsing of his words and, eventually, a clarification.

    Depending on how you parse those comments — and much of politics depends on this — the Walker campaign is right: He wasn’t advocating for a border wall between the U.S. and Canada. He didn’t bring up the idea at all. “Meet the Press” host Chuck Todd pressed Walker on northern border security, asking why it’s discussed so little when candidates like Walker speak so frequently talk about the risk of terrorists crossing into the U.S. from Mexico.

    “Do you want to build a wall north of the border, too?” Todd asked.

    “Some people have asked us about that in New Hampshire,” Walker replied. “They raised some very legitimate concerns, including some law enforcement folks that brought that up to me at one of our town hall meetings about a week and a half ago. So that is a legitimate issue for us to look at.”

    In other words, Walker wasn’t out there demanding a wall be built between the U.S. and Canada — he just said the equivalent of “maybe” when asked about it.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....a9633a0498

  87. 87
    MattF says:

    @Matt McIrvin: Possible answer, via Straight Dope message boards.

  88. 88
    rikyrah says:

    This is who they are, Zandar.

    Obama Derangement Syndrome is REAL!!!

  89. 89
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Cermet: Do you include Obama as one of your Taliban folks? Jimmy Carter?

  90. 90
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @MattF: That sounds like it was probably it! One can never tell.

  91. 91
    Brachiator says:

    @dedc79: Many of the same Republicans who once screamed that Bill Clinton was the worst president of all time (and a murderer, to boot) now acknowledge that he was actually a pretty decent President. The shift began basically the moment he was out of office.

    No, core Republicans still insist that Jimmy Carter was weak and ineffectual, that Bill Clinton was corrupt and immoral, and that Obama somehow stole the presidency. The Clinton hate is rising to a new boil now that Hillary is running again.

  92. 92
    NonyNony says:

    @rikyrah:

    So Walker says something stupid and then backs down?

    The man will never get the Republican nomination at this point. That isn’t the way it works. You say something stupid and then you double down.

    When called on it he’s supposed to start rambling about all the Canuks that are coming here and stealing jobs from good hardworking ‘mericans. And how Canadian Mooslim terrarists are sneaking across the border to do horrible things to us. And so of course a wall is needed!

    If Trump had screwed up and said we needed a wall with Canada you know he’d be defending that stupid position right now, not backing down from it. Probably insisting that we need to put a dome over the whole country to keep out the illegal Martians as well.

  93. 93
    gelfling545 says:

    @bystander: It seems to me that they have brought up Sander’s socialism much less that I would have expected. I believe they actually said that more often about the President in 2008 than they do about Sanders now. I figure it’s for 2 reasons. First, it’s true & they don’t have much truck with the truth. Second, they are afraid that if people actually hear what Democratic Socialism is they will say “yes, some of that, please”.

  94. 94
    Peale says:

    @beltane: Ummmm. Yeah. If they come onto his property to harass his wife, I don’t think you’ll find many people who’d defend the behavior of the people he shot.

  95. 95
    dedc79 says:

    @MattF:

    He’s no longer President, so they don’t really need to bother any more.

    I think that’s the heart of it. Someone else made the point above – you could substitute in any negative question (“Is President Obama in league with Satan?” “Does the President eat puppies?”) and the majority will say yes because they cannot abide a Democratic president. The racial component with respect to Obama is an amplification of their pre-existing condition.

    So I don’t mean to sound dismissive of these poll results are and the animus they reflect. I’m just saying it’s part of a broader problem with the republican party and its voters, of which racism is only a piece.

  96. 96

    @Matt McIrvin:

    there is apparently some betrayal-to-China thing Clinton did that wingnuts all know about and nod their heads when they hear it spoken of.

    I would guess that it was “most favored nation” status. There was a constant fight over temporary MFN extensions during the Clinton Administration that I’m sure some wingnuts blame for exporting manufacturing jobs. That the status was made permanent under Shrub will naturally escape their notice.

  97. 97
    Peale says:

    @NonyNony: Yep. It’s not hard. “Canada is letting in too many Islamic Extremists with their lackadasical and liberal immigration policies and we need a wall to defend us from Canadian based Jihadists.”

    See. Its that easy.

  98. 98
    Peale says:

    @Roger Moore: Good times. Remember when China was going to be enemy number 1 of the Bushies? They shot down our spy plane and we were gonna go and really take them to the cleaners. I think there was war frenzy about China for about 2 months in the first year of W’s administration.

  99. 99
    Citizen Alan says:

    I just think it’s kind of hilarious that so many Republicans argue over whether Obama is a Christian or a Muslim when I believe that every single Republican without exception worships Satan. That evil hag in Kentucky who is now defying the Supreme Court over issuing gay marriage licenses? She worships Satan and doesn’t even know it.

  100. 100
    dedc79 says:

    @Brachiator: My conversations with republicans/wingnuts may well be unrepresentative, but I’m already hearing a lot of “Bill was fine, it was Hillary who was the problem all along.” They make her sound like some kind of Lady Macbeth. And it’s that kind of talk that makes me think they will always flip out about whoever the Dems nominate and whichever Dems are in the White House.

  101. 101

    @dedc79:
    We have always been at war with Eurasia.

  102. 102
    Cermet says:

    @beltane: You win!!! That is great.

  103. 103
    catclub says:

    @dedc79:

    The shift began basically the moment he was out of office.

    I would argue that it began the moment there was a chance of new Democrat in the White House.

  104. 104
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @shell: Trump is running on the same platform as the Monorail Guy from the Simpsons.

    “What about us drunken slobs?” “You’ll be given cushy jobs!”

  105. 105
    catclub says:

    @Peale:

    They shot down our spy plane

    Not quite. It was a mid-air collision with their fighter plane.

    I also think that first year was just all the unlucky things that could happen to Bush. The submarine that sank a Japanese fishing boat – because they were showboating with VIP’s on board, was the first. 9/11 and anthrax were the last (of his first year).
    Katrina is another one that can go on the ‘Bush was really unlucky’ list. The 2008 stock meltdown could have waited until he left office, but did not. Iraq, not so much.

  106. 106
    Zinsky says:

    The most important response to wing nuts who assert, falsely, that Obama is a Muslim is “SO WHAT IF HE IS??”

    There is no religious affiliation qualification for POTUS!

  107. 107
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Aardvark Cheeselog: I liked the news report this morning that Kim Davis was praying on it.

    So many assumptions there:

    Non Christianist non bigots don’t pray on things
    A really devout Christian makes decisions based on prayer, not weighing their options and sleeping on it
    Kim Davis is a devout Christian (bfaaaahahahah)
    Kim Davis is fighting this battle of sincere, pious conviction

    I’d love to have audio of this piece of work at home, instead of talking about when her lawsuit comes in, she’s air-spending all her wingnut welfare income she’s sure to receive. LOL.

  108. 108
    Brachiator says:

    @dedc79:

    My conversations with republicans/wingnuts may well be unrepresentative, but I’m already hearing a lot of “Bill was fine, it was Hillary who was the problem all along.” They make her sound like some kind of Lady Macbeth.

    Wow. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry over something so stupid.

    Bill Clinton, the charismatic seducer being manipulated by his ambitious wife.

  109. 109
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Citizen Alan: That county clerk has been summoned to a hearing in Federal court on Thursday, two days from now. IANAL, but I expect she will be asked to show why the judge should not hold her in contempt. I do not think the judge will have much of a sense of humor at that point.

  110. 110
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Bloix:

    “Obama rarely invokes his own faith in speeches and public appearances”

    So no one at The Hill bothered to watch his speech in Selma in March or his eulogy for Clementa Pinckney in June.

    Welp…

    They might have experienced an emotion, so it’s best they didn’t.

  111. 111
    mellowjohn says:

    @NonyNony:

    When called on it he’s supposed to start rambling about all the Canuks that are coming here and stealing jobs from good hardworking ‘mericans. And how Canadian Mooslim terrarists are sneaking across the border to do horrible things to us. And so of course a wall is needed!

    maybe he’s talking about Justin Bieber.

  112. 112
    Peale says:

    @Brachiator: It’s why she’d never divorce him! She’s power mad! I believe that’s why adulterer Sally Quinn looked down her nose at Hillary and probably still does.

  113. 113
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @gnomedad: It’s an article of faith that liberals are stupid and lack common sense, but they keep outmaneuvering Republicans. Cunning, not smart, cunning, that’s it.

  114. 114
    Paul in KY says:

    @NonyNony: The crafty Messicans swim up to Canada, and then are bussed over by Godless Canucks bent on defiling our pure water.

    Or something like that…

  115. 115
    Paul in KY says:

    @Peale: Is a reporter, trying to do his or her job, ‘harassing’ his wife if they come up & ring the doorbell?

  116. 116
    scav says:

    So, if they admitted Obama was a Christian, that would mean they would be entirely on-board with him not obeying any law, the Constitution or the Supreme Court, so long as he mentioned the magic baby’s name, correct? Or, does White County Clerk trump Black National President in their current rule-of-law power hierarchy.

  117. 117
    Paul in KY says:

    @Roger Moore: Plus, it was the Republicans who were agitating for it.

  118. 118

    @Another Holocene Human:

    They might have experienced an emotion, so it’s best they didn’t.

    More likely they would have displayed their inability to experience emotion over anyone other than their immediate circle of friends (being generous).

  119. 119
    Cermet says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Why yes, I do – religion is an evil; always has been and always will be until people wake up to how silly this belief in a “deity” really is but then, since most here believe, not really concern that will occur anytime soon. Also, most don’t realize they are supporting this evil by blinding accepting such an extremely silly idea all because they are afraid of death – all religions use this “weakness” to pry on peoples fear to insulate their stupid belief system to rational thought. Religion always leds to hate, murder, war and continued worship of money as the vast majority of humans sink ever lower – money is the bases of all religions and their ultimate and only true god. Sorry if that hurts your feelings (no sarcasm in that. I am just sorry people take offense when such a ludicrous philosophy based on an incredibly self serving and evil “god” based on …maybe drug induced” psychotic delusions and/or dreams is taken serious by very intelligent people here – including your list)

  120. 120
    burnspbesq says:

    @Aardvark Cheeselog:

    In other news of religious intransigence. Kentucky Clerk Denies Gay Couples Marriage Licenses, Defying Court.

    Contempt hearing scheduled for 1:00 p.m. Thursday.

  121. 121

    @mellowjohn:

    maybe he’s talking about Justin Bieber.

    Or Ted Cruz.

  122. 122
    burnspbesq says:

    @Cermet:

    Now who’s being intolerant?

  123. 123

    @Peale:

    I believe that’s why adulterer Sally Quinn looked down her nose at Hillary and probably still does.

    I thought that was because the Clintons were trailer trash. Class snobbery knows no bounds.

  124. 124
    Mike in NC says:

    @catclub: Bush surely had a reverse Midas touch in that everything he touched turned to shit.

  125. 125
    burnspbesq says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    I haven’t seen it yet, but plaintiffs’ motion has been described as asking the court to impose fines but not jail time. I’m not sure I agree with that. Sometimes I get a little vindictive; if she wants to be a martyr, why not give her what she wants?

  126. 126
    Sherparick says:

    @What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: Trump still dogwhistles his birtherism as asides in his comments when he talks about Obama. It is really quite amazing some of the stuff going with Fox practically inciting cops to shoot down “Black Lives Demonstrators” as retribution for Roanoke and Houston killings. (When a sick and deranged black man does something sick and deranged, then all Blacks are responsible and should be locked up, or at least kept “in their place.” When one of the many whites does something sick and deranged, will he was just an isolated case of sickness and derangement, nothing to with us.

  127. 127
    Paul in KY says:

    @Zinsky: The problem with that would be that he repeatedly lied to American people (if he was, indeed, of the Muslim faith).

    His being a Muslim, as opposed to a Christian or Jew or Jain or Hindu or Atheist or whatever should not matter, in and of itself.

  128. 128
    Keith G says:

    I hear that PPP does reliable polling, yet when I read this from their report I do wonder how much the results can be extrapolated to a general view of all American society:

    Public Policy Polling surveyed 572 usual Republican primary voters and 545 usual Democratic
    primary voters from August 28th to 30th. The margin of error for the Republicans is +/-4.1% and
    for the Democrats it’s +/-4.2%. 80% of participants responded via the phone, while 20% of
    respondents who did not have landlines conducted the survey over the internet.

    At the same time it is certainly the case that since those who were moderate-inclined in their support of Republican have been driven off, those who remain are the most firm in their irrational biases.

  129. 129
    Paul in KY says:

    @burnspbesq: She & her crack legal team are counting on many donations to cover the costs of the fines. I would imagine Judge Bunning will also entertain that as a possibility.

  130. 130
    Paul in KY says:

    @Keith G: You cannot count on any poll with a plus/minus of 4.1 % That’s some halfassed polling there.

  131. 131
    Cermet says:

    @burnspbesq: LOL! You don’t see how silly your statement is, do you? Pointing out the true nature of a dangerous belief system is not intolerance. Again, I am sorry if I offended you but people do take that belief so serious so I guess my apology isn’t useful. I am just calling a spade a spade.

  132. 132
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @dedc79: They hated Hillary more than Bill even while Bill was in office. She offended their sense of gender hierarchy. I think it more or less went nationwide with the “baking cookies” remark.

  133. 133
    Keith G says:

    Speaking of the irrational, as I was above, I see that the state of California is ending the common use of solitary confinement as a way to battle the prison gang problem.

    Sometimes the rational side does win…tho’ it might take way too long.

  134. 134

    @burnspbesq:
    Is there some kind of legal limit on the size of fines the judge can hand down for contempt? Because I wouldn’t mind fines as a starting point, provided that A) they were substantially larger than her salary as county clerk and B) she couldn’t raise money to help her pay them. Of course, if that doesn’t work, jail time should remain an option.

  135. 135

    @Keith G:
    I think criminal justice reform is one area where the pendulum is genuinely swinging. Liberals are pushing it for humanitarian reasons, and conservatives are pushing it for financial reasons. Between the two, we’re getting some real movement on an issue that looked hopeless just a few years ago.

  136. 136
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @catclub: 9/11 was terrible for the rest of us, but it was the luckiest thing that ever happened to Bush. He squeaked into office with half the country thinking his election was illegitimate, but then he became legitimized and turned into an adored national leader in the space of an hour, by doing nothing. What followed was like a compressed, exaggerated parody of the age of Reagan, only much bloodier and only lasting for a few years. It’s the reason that truther conspiracy theories are so attractive: “cui bono?” gets you there immediately.

  137. 137
    MomSense says:

    I would love to know what an effective method of dealing with this much ignorance and racism is but all my attempts have been failures. The best outcome was the guy who still thought I was full of crap but that I was at least a nice liberal which was something he had thought impossible before our conversation.

  138. 138
    moderateindy says:

    @dedc79: I’ve had the same experience with my conservative friends. Many admit that Clinton was a moderate, and wasn’t as bad as they thought.
    One reason I didn’t vote for HRC eight years ago, was that I didn’t want to deal with all the faux scandals all over again. I didn’t believe that they would be as ridiculous with Obama. Man was I wrong. Mission Accomplished wrong, “they’ll greet us with flowers” wrong, tax cuts for the rich increase revenue wrong Dick Cheney is Darth Vader wrong, (at least Darth Vader ended up expressing regret, Cheney will only double down on his deathbed)
    My guess is BO is actually an athiest or agnostic. If you want to be a community organizer in Chicago you have to belong to a church period. No getting around that. So he joined.

  139. 139
    rikyrah says:

    ODS IS REAL!!

    ……………………..

    Laura Ingraham’s Website: ‘McKinley Assassinated Again’ By Obama Decision

    BySara Jerde
    PublishedSeptember 1, 2015, 12:21 PM EDT

    A post published on conservative radio host Laura Ingraham’s website, Lifezette, this week said that President William McKinley was “assassinated again” when President Obama decided to rename North America’s tallest peak.

    Obama announced Sunday that he would change the name of Mt. McKinley to the Alaska Native name, Denali. A slew of Ohio Republicans, including Republican presidential candidate and Ohio Gov. John Kasich as well as House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) have expressed their disappointment in Obama’s decision.

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/l.....ssasinated

  140. 140
    Brachiator says:

    @Zinsky:

    The most important response to wing nuts who assert, falsely, that Obama is a Muslim is “SO WHAT IF HE IS??”

    The Constitution be damned. The ideal American president is a white Christian man married to a white Christian woman. As a Muslim, Obama hates America, hates liberty, hates Western Civilization and hates white people. By definition.

    Since Obama hates America, etc, any right thinking white Christian man would oppose or ignore his presidency, just like that clerk in Kentucky who can ignore the law and the courts and do her best to save Christian Heterosexual America from the gheys.

    This kind of thing is supreme cognitive dissonance. By imputing bad motives to Obama, white racists can deny that he is the president and that he is trying to help them and the country. They can rationalize their refusal to accept him. It’s not them. It’s Obama.

  141. 141
    catclub says:

    @Mike in NC: I fully agree. But he was still incredibly unlucky, and so far Obama has been very lucky.

    Bush did a bad job after Katrina, but Katrina killed those 1800 people before Bush (or the Federal government) could have done much about it. [Barring getting the entire city properly evacuated before the landfall – which has never been done for any hurricane before. And is only justified if the levees fail.]

  142. 142
    burnspbesq says:

    @Roger Moore:

    Is there some kind of legal limit on the size of fines the judge can hand down for contempt? Because I wouldn’t mind fines as a starting point, provided that A) they were substantially larger than her salary as county clerk and B) she couldn’t raise money to help her pay them. Of course, if that doesn’t work, jail time should remain an option.

    Would have to do some research in order to provide a definitive answer on limits–but the theory of contempt sanctions is that they are intended to bring the condemner into compliance with the court’s order, so logically they ought to be painful.

    I don’t know how a court could meaningfully limit the sources of funds out of which a fine for contempt could be paid, and I can imagine a non-frivolous First Amendment challenge if it tried to do so in a case like this (I don’t think anyone–even assholes like Cermet–doubts the sincerity of Davis’ religious beliefs). I also expect that her counsel will argue that throwing her in jail would be inappropriate because no amount of jail time will cause her to ccmply, although the problems inherent in that line of argument are pretty obvious.

  143. 143

    @MomSense:

    I would love to know what an effective method of dealing with this much ignorance and racism is

    So would the rest of the world. If there were a simple solution, we probably would have eradicated ignorance and racism already. The only thing to do is to work on people one at a time and try to point them the way so they can figure things out on their own. Overt pushing only seems to make people defensive and less likely to accept anything you say.

  144. 144
    MomSense says:

    @rikyrah:

    Oh brother. I have trouble believing that the average Ohioan is invested enough in McKinley to give a crap about this.

    Please Obama warn Republicans about the dangers of eating yellow snow while in Alaska.

  145. 145
    scav says:

    @burnspbesq: Actually, given the (increasingly practical and hard-cash) benefits of publicity, there are legitimate reasons to wonder about the sincerity of her particular religious stand at this particular moment in time, especially in light of her possible instructions in the transgender couple that got a license in February.

  146. 146
    moderateindy says:

    @Paul in KY: One of the things I remember about Casey County is that at one time it had the highest alcoholism rate in the nation, and one of the highest drop-out rates.
    Personally, I really enjoyed the area. Have long time friends that live in Middleburg

  147. 147
    What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us? says:

    @Thoughtful David: I’m not sure the media does much “both sides have a point” about Obama’s birth place, but just ignoring the fact that a supermajority of the voters in one party believe something that is demonstrably not true is bad enough. Especially when there are several other untruths that are taken as gospel truths by the voters in said party. I mean, if they believe this crackpot stuff why take them seriously on actual issues. They obviously can’t tell fact from fiction but yeah, lets listen to what they have to say on economic policy anyway.

  148. 148

    @catclub:

    But he was still incredibly unlucky, and so far Obama has been very lucky.

    He may have been unlucky, but he created a lot of his own bad luck. Many of the unlucky events that happened during his presidency could have been prevented by proper action in advance. Part of the frustration about 9/11 was that we had the information necessary to stop it but didn’t put it together in time; making anti-terrorism a higher priority might have provided the resources necessary. The exact timing of the financial crisis was luck, but the fundamental problems that led to it were a result of bad policy and bad enforcement of existing laws, so better action by the Bush Administration could have prevented, or at least greatly lessened, it. And the political fallout from Katrina was a result of the botched response, not the disaster itself, and that certainly was entirely Bush’s fault.

    And I think you’re overstating Obama’s luck, too. Remember the BP disaster in the Gulf? That was an epic disaster, but there was little serious political fallout because the Obama Administration handled it as well as one could reasonably hope. There have been plenty of similar situations during the Obama Administration that easily could have blown up into political disasters but were contained by prompt, competent responses.

  149. 149
    Mike J says:

    @burnspbesq:

    I don’t know how a court could meaningfully limit the sources of funds out of which a fine for contempt could be paid, and I can imagine a non-frivolous First Amendment challenge

    The logical thing to do is to start with $1000/day, which would get the unfunded to cave pretty quick. After the donations roll in, you raise it to $50k/day. The bigot pizza parlor raked in $840k. It would only take 20 days to make the donors give the gubbmint a cool million.

  150. 150
    Paul in KY says:

    @catclub: It wasn’t a surprise that New Orleans was going to get hit very hard. Maybe put the response teams on high alert & start moving stuff down there & eleventy other things they could have done…but didn’t.

  151. 151

    @MomSense:

    Please Obama warn Republicans about the dangers of eating yellow snow while in Alaska.

    Given that he’s hanging out with Bear Grylls, I think he’s going to have a hard time making a really strong case against urine consumption.

  152. 152
    Paul in KY says:

    @burnspbesq: As a judge, I would like to have a test on how much jail time might make her do her job. I certainly wouldn’t just take their word for it.

  153. 153
    catclub says:

    @burnspbesq:

    I don’t know how a court could meaningfully limit the sources of funds out of which a fine for contempt could be paid, and I can imagine a non-frivolous First Amendment challenge if it tried to do so in a case like this

    Gag orders happen all the time. Don’t angry judges also try to stop lawyers from trying _their_cases in the public press?

  154. 154
    burnspbesq says:

    @burnspbesq:

    ETA:

    This looks like a good summary of the current state of Federal law re contempt.

    http://www.bafirm.com/publicat.....-of-court/

  155. 155
    Chris says:

    @MomSense:

    I would love to know what an effective method of dealing with this much ignorance and racism

    The thing I keep coming back to is that somehow, after a hundred and fifty years of loathing (as late as 1928, Al Smith lost half the South and was greeted with burning crosses), the “ethnic white” Catholic and Jewish immigrants; who used to be, if never quite as hated as black people, certainly plenty bad enough; who gave rise to plenty of exactly the same kind of ludicrous conspiracy theories and frights that we’re seeing today in re Muslims or Mexicans… ended up being integrated in the middle of the twentieth century, and once they were integrated, that was it. Nobody nowadays gives a shit about this kind of thing. That kind of insane tribalism can be overcome, if the past is any guide; it just doesn’t seem to happen all that often.

  156. 156
    Paul in KY says:

    @moderateindy: I don’t think I’ve ever been in Casey County. I’m sure the area is very scenic. Glad you enjoyed yourself.

  157. 157
    Paul in KY says:

    @burnspbesq: Thank you for the link. Err, maybe you could summarize it for us :-)

  158. 158
    Brachiator says:

    @Cermet:

    Religion always leds to hate, murder, war and continued worship of money as the vast majority of humans sink ever lower – money is the bases of all religions and their ultimate and only true god. Sorry if that hurts your feelings

    I’m not sure that you can hurt people’s feelings with this, because it is a vast over-simplification. You might more accurately say that religion is just one of the tools that people pervert and use to commit murder, war,etc.

    Britain is just coming off the celebration of the signing of the Magna Carta in 1215. The machinations of King John Lackland to put the screws to English barons to subsidize John’s attempts to regain his lands in France, or the French response, which includes almost making England a French dependency has very little religious dimension (the Pope did excommunicate John for various offenses, but ending up backing him against the barons).

    You can easily pick any other time and place in world history, and find people doing fine doing evil without an invocation of a deity.

    This is not to say that religion is valid, just that it is not the necessarily the root of evil that you want to make it into.

  159. 159
    boatboy_srq says:

    @NonyNony: A dome over the US could be a very good thing. The US would get to dictate climate as national policy and the rest of the planet would be spared the AGCC contributions. One condition: the airlocks would be secured on the outside as well as the inside, and atmosphere exchange would be prohibited. We’ll see just how long the wingnuts survive in that.

  160. 160
    Mike J says:

    @Paul in KY:

    As a judge, I would like to have a test on how much jail time might make her do her job. I certainly wouldn’t just take their word for it.

    The limit is six months without a jury trial. I don’t think it would take that long though.

  161. 161
    Calouste says:

    @Brachiator:

    The Constitution be damned. The ideal only legal American president is a Republicanwhite Christian man married to a white Christian woman.

    None of the current top 6 in the GOP polls strictly fit that rule, except maybe Trump. Bush3, Cruz and Rubio have Hispanic cooties, and the other two are Carson and Fiorina.

  162. 162
    gbear says:

    @burnspbesq: I hope she doesn’t show up for the contempt hearing and uses the excuse that she and her clerks need to be at the office to do their job. I want to see irony meters explode.

  163. 163
    Mike J says:

    @Brachiator:

    This is not to say that religion is valid, just that it is not the necessarily the root of evil that you want to make it into.

    Does the world need more irrational believers like Martin Luther King Jr,, or perfectly rational unbelievers like Ayn Rand?

  164. 164
    Calouste says:

    @Brachiator: Cermet didn’t say that religion was the only cause of evil. That you understand it that way says more about you than about Cermet.

  165. 165
    Calouste says:

    Pollster has a new poll up that has Trump at 37, with Carson and Bush3 leading the pack with 9. Not heard of that particular pollster (MorningConsult) before, but the sample is 2,000.

  166. 166
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Cermet:

    religion is an evil;

    No it’s not. Religion is a construct of man and as such is no more or less evil than an oven. Were the ovens at Auschwitz evil? No, the people who used them were. Does that make all ovens evil? I know a few bakers who could demonstrate otherwise.

    It is the same with religions.

    And take note, both Pol Pot and Josef Stalin were atheists.

  167. 167
  168. 168
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    OT: I

    gor Bobic ‏@ igorbobic 44s44 seconds ago
    If you’re going to support the deal, why set a big speech to do so (like Coons is doing at 2pm) and not just announce flat out like Casey

    If Bobic is right about Coons, I think that brings us to 33, and one rumor I saw said they’re holding Mikulski back so she can be the “deciding vote” instead of someone with an election coming up

  169. 169
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @catclub:

    Bush did a bad job after Katrina, but Katrina killed those 1800 people before Bush (or the Federal government) could have done much about it. [Barring getting the entire city properly evacuated before the landfall – which has never been done for any hurricane before. And is only justified if the levees fail.]

    When Katrina was bearing down on New Orleans, it was considerably stronger than it was by the time it actually hit the city; it was a Cat 5. There had been talk in the recent past about the possibility that the surge from a Cat 5 could simply top the levees; it was called the “Atlantis scenario”, and wouldn’t have required them to fail. It seriously looked like it was happening in the days just before landfall.

    As it was, the hurricane made landfall as a Cat 3, but it flooded the city anyway because the floodwalls were defective and they broke. Nobody could have known that, but an evacuation still would have been justified on the basis of the initial predictions of the storm strength.

  170. 170
    Paul in KY says:

    @Mike J: She’s talking a good game right now, before she’s seen the inside of the jail. Would hope that the jail is not a very local one, as she might not get the full monty on the jail experience, if she’s incarcerated in Rowan County.

  171. 171
    lawguy says:

    I’m not sure it’s totally racist. I had a “discussion” with a right winger on FB. He first insisted that it was republicans who desegregated the armed forces (nope democratic president Harry Truman), Second, he said, that it was republican controlled congresses that passed the civil rights act and the voting rights act. It didn’t matter at all that I could provide links that showed that he was wrong.

    I do remember that at first it was terrible that Obama had gone to a church for 20 some years that had a “Black Radical” as the preacher. That must not have flown with with the brotherhood, so we now say he’s Muslim and apparently believe it. The number of things that are provably wrong the people believe is scary. I’m not sure that there is anything to do about it.

  172. 172
    Paul in KY says:

    @Calouste: Now that’s a reliable sample. He’s whipping their asses right now.

  173. 173
    Brachiator says:

    @Mike J:

    Does the world need more irrational believers like Martin Luther King Jr,, or perfectly rational unbelievers like Ayn Rand?

    Was Ayn Rand rational?

  174. 174
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @moderateindy:

    My guess is BO is actually an athiest or agnostic. If you want to be a community organizer in Chicago you have to belong to a church period. No getting around that. So he joined.

    I’ve never understood why people say this, other than a vague idea that a smart person must be an atheist or an agnostic. Did you listen to his speech in memory of Clementa Pinckney? That’s a Christian believer talking, and he’s thoroughly comfortable with talking in religious language.

    Now, the black church in America generally has different styles and different concepts of how God works in the world; there isn’t the otherworldly focus or the scary power-cult that white evangelicals often have.

  175. 175
    Cluttered Mind says:

    @Snarki, child of Loki: And then lights up a cigarette on camera and takes a long drag, blowing the smoke at the white house press corps.

  176. 176
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @gelfling545: They’re focused on Hillary Clinton because they want to take down what they see as their strongest opponent; if Sanders gets the nomination, they’d likely figure that’s a win and then go after him, with a Nixon ’72-style campaign.

    The people who I hear talking most about Sanders’ form of socialism are Sanders supporters, who are focused on rehabilitating the name of democratic socialism. Personally I kind of doubt that Sanders is accurately describable as a democratic socialist; he’s more of a Euro-style social democrat, really. But if it’s what he calls himself, it’s what you run with.

  177. 177
    Brachiator says:

    @Calouste:

    None of the current top 6 in the GOP polls strictly fit that rule, except maybe Trump. Bush3, Cruz and Rubio have Hispanic cooties, and the other two are Carson and Fiorina.

    I’ll take your point that being Republican removes more sins than being wrapped in the arms of the baby Jebus. But even Trump has to play at being an observant Christian, or at least a believer in Jebus. And Bobby Jindal is acceptable because he is a convert.

    Cermet didn’t say that religion was the only cause of evil. That you understand it that way says more about you than about Cermet.

    What an odd and pointless thing to write. Says absolutely nothing about me at all.

    Again, Cermet incorrectly blames religion, when the fault is in humanity, which can rationalize the will to power using religion, patriotism, glory, or anything else we wish.

    By any measure, his statement that “religion always leds to hate, murder, war… ” is false, and an oversimplification.

  178. 178
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Chris:

    That kind of insane tribalism can be overcome, if the past is any guide; it just doesn’t seem to happen all that often.

    I think the evidence from US history is that it can be overcome for everything except racism against African-Americans (and possibly against Native Americans). The other groups all end up eventually being integrated into whiteness by setting them against black people.

  179. 179
    priscianus jr says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I for one don’t care what his religion is. For that matter, I don’t care what anyone’s religion is. I only care what their preferred policies are.

    Good for you, but that’s not the point. The point is that if you DO care what his religion is, you ought to know WHAT it actually is.

  180. 180
    Calouste says:

    @Paul in KY: Well, it’s a large sample :), don’t know about the q. Although Pollster was reporting it wrong. The overall poll sample was 2000, the GOP poll was only for the registered Republicans, of which there were 769. Still a bit better than the 400 odd most pollsters seems to use.

  181. 181
    Archon says:

    @Matt McIrvin:

    White supremacy focused on anti-black racism made assimilation of “out” European groups much easier. In other words it was, “you may be Italian or Irish but you’re still not a nigger.” That’s why ANY comparison of the white European immigrant experience to the African-American experience is laughable. People came off the boat not speaking a word of English with more rights and opportunities then blacks who had been here generations.

    Without blacks being at the bottom of the totem pole America’s assimilation of other Europeans would have been much more complicated.

  182. 182
    Bex says:

    @SenyorDave: He recently claimed to be a Presbyterian and a member of Marble Collegiate Church in New York. The church begs to differ and says he is not an active member…oh, and Marble Collegiate is not a Presbyterian church.

  183. 183
    Brachiator says:

    @Archon:

    White supremacy focused on anti-black racism made assimilation of “out” European groups much easier. In other words it was, “you may be Italian or Irish but you’re still not a nigger.” That’s why ANY comparison of the white European immigrant experience to the African-American experience is laughable.

    Comparisons can be very useful. The Irish were often depicted as uncivilized drunken apes.

    The explanation behind one caricature is instructive:

    In this cartoon, captioned “A King of -Shanty,” the comparison becomes explicit. The “Ashantee” were a well known African tribe; “shanty” was the Irish word for a shack or poor man’s house. The cartoon mocks Irish poverty, caricatures irish people as ape like and primitive, and suggests they are little different from Africans, who the cartoonists seems to see the same way. This cartroon irishman has, again, the outhrust mouth, sloping forehead, and flat wide nose of the standard Irish caricature.

    http://thesocietypages.org/soc.....anization/

    I agree there are limits, and dangers, in trying to come up with an easy hierarchy of racist oppression, and that ultimately the oppression of black people in the US has been worse than that of other groups which were later able to achieve “whiteness,” but groups that failed to meet the Anglo Saxon “ideal” were often treated brutally.

    Treatment of Asians has also been at times particularly nasty.

  184. 184
    Paul in KY says:

    @Brachiator: I guess then that ‘humanity’ is at fault for everything.

  185. 185
    Paul in KY says:

    @Calouste: I was thinking 2000 for the sample of Repub primary voters. Thank you for the clarification.

  186. 186
    Brachiator says:

    @Paul in KY:

    I guess then that ‘humanity’ is at fault for everything.

    Who else you gonna blame?

    If only there were no religion, everything would be all right.

    If only everyone was a believer of [pick your poison], then everything would be all right.

    If only we were all communists, then everything would be all right.

    If only we were all libertarian, then everything would be all right.

    If only we were all Republican, then everything would be all right.

    “The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
    But in ourselves, that we are underlings.”

    Julius Caesar (I, ii, 140-141)

  187. 187
    Aardvark Cheeselog says:

    @Keith G:

    Sometimes the rational side does win…tho’ it might take way too long.

    America always does the right thing, after trying all the alternatives. Or so I say to myself. It helps ward off despair.

  188. 188
    moderateindy says:

    @Matt McIrvin: No, I say that because he didn’t, as far as I know, do much in the way of going to church, or holding strong religous beliefs before he became a community organizer in Chicago. Believe me when I say if you want to play ball in chicago community politics at the ground level, you have to have legit ties to the pastoral community there, because they hold huge sway.
    As far as his speeches go, he is a skilled public speaker, so I have no doubt that he could give an impassioned speech that uses devices that he holds no particular passion for.
    After years of parochial school, and going to church and Sunday school weekly, I could easily invoke a multitude of religous memes, and platitudes, as well as specific bible verses that would make you think I was a believer……… I am not.

  189. 189
    moderateindy says:

    As far as religion being evil, that’s nonsense. Religion is a powerful device to wield evil, but that’s all it is. Mostly religion is a way for people to secure power in a way that is acceptable to the masses.
    Getting rid of religion would not stop evil people from wanting, and getting power, then abusing that power in evil ways. One doesn’t need religion to come up with what many believe is a just cause, than exploit that cause using other like minded folks to join and support him or her.
    Compare religion to guns. Guns are an efficient way to kill people. Banning guns doesn’t stop people from killing each other, it just makes it harder. (not a ton of drive by stabbings, although I think the use of the ninja star would soar. I know the second the Kenyan mooslim usurper was elected, and instituted his long term strategy to take all the guns away from real Murkins, and give them to ISIS, I put my entire IRA into the Acme Ninja Star Corporation of Tokyo, Japan, even though I still don’t trust them Japs, though they did make a fine potato chip…..(Historical Chicago joke)) Lots and lots of folks were murdered on this planet before guns came along.
    Religion makes it easier to fleece the rubes, and wield power in an evil manner, getting rid of religion would lessen how easy it is to do that, but not much else in the overall evil that is perpetrated on humanity on a daily basis.

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